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Speaker 1: I know, I said, as a Protestant, and I'm looking

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into the Orthodox Faith because I finally looked into early

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Church history and solve my beliefs like fold before my eyes.

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Speaker 2: So how many chack right now?

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Speaker 1: But I kind of want to ask real quick, if

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you can start all over in your journey and learn

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Orthodox faith, what would you do from the very beginning.

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You don't have to go on like a long like

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like right away read the Early Church father.

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Speaker 3: Or just take my time and not rush into it.

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Start by reading Athanacius, start by reading the Church Fathers gradually,

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just take your time. Lull lull topic. The reason that

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the Orthodox Church does not strictly identify Catholicity with universality.

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I'm well aware that that's what the word means is

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because of the fact that you can have the fullness

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of the faith, as Ignacious talks about in his epistles

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at the local church. That's why. And because it's not

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an issue of numbers. And it's very important to stress

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that because many times in the history of the Church,

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the true believers were reduced in numbers. Okay, any Orthodox

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theology book that you read will discuss this. In contrast

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to the Roman Catholic notion that it's essentially identified with universality.

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And the reason we'd say that is because Roman Catholics

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always say you need the four marks of the Church,

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and because Orthodox don't have Catholicity in terms of numbers,

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they're not the true church. It's a stupid argument. That's

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why I said that. I knew since I was eighteen

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that the word Catholic means universal. Come on, go ahead, man,

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what's up? No, yep.

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Speaker 2: I had a bunch of good questions for you. But

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now after those okay, retarded people coming in talking about

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kinditive dissonance towards you, is I lost my train of thought.

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Speaker 3: Well, hold on a second, think about it for a second.

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Victoria loves Haesus ten bucks. Most Protestants are taught that

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Catholicism is fake, and all the churches I grew up

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in nobody really knew anything about Orthodoxy. So I'm excited

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to learn more. Well, welcome, take your time and hear

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the things out. Don't get triggered. Cole Marshall five dollars.

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What is the right of interpretation? The Protestants proposed a

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doctrine of individual freedom of conscience and write a private interpretation,

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that no one could bind you to their interpretation of scriptures.

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You see. So they were chiefly arguing against the Roman

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Catholic papal system, which was always arguing against them that

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you need the papacy, you don't have authority. The Protestants said,

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I have my own conscience, don't care about your your

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pope binding me to your interpretations. So the Protestants came

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up with the right of private interpretation. This is one

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of their hallmark Classic Reformation doctrines. Boomer Slayer, fifty bucks.

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I went to church for the first time ever last Sunday.

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Whoa dude, hope what it was? An Orthodox church? I

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planned to keep going. Thank you awesome name, and I'm

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glad that you made it. Steve Grady twenty bucks. I'm

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researching Orthodoxy, but I wondered if Orthodoxy has old new

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calendar issue. I mean that's a very minor I mean,

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just find a good ro Corps Serbian Antiochian church. Don't

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worry about that kind of stuff. Yet, Is it an

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example of Orthodox clergy making up innovations? Well, I think

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that the calendar issue was in a way of innovation,

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but I don't know that I wouldn't like in that

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to Protestantism is way more extreme than something like that.

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David James Flood two memberships. The Gentleman that asked about

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tag questions should read Father deacon Ni's papers, Yes, definitely,

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but those come up in the old videos. By the way,

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go ahead, RCI.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, I'm gonna try to fly through some of

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this one being not on topic of any debate stuff.

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But are you only open for debates or do you

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also do like interviews and stuff too?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean interviews?

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Speaker 2: Like if you came in a podcast and we're talking

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about the Eastern Orthodoxy and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean I have done that on many It depends

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on the podcasts. So what are you who's talking?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. There's a couple of Catholic ones out

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there that would love to have you on and get

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you on.

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Speaker 3: Catholic ones want it. Why would a Catholic want me

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on their podcast? Dude?

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Speaker 2: I think you have a lot of good stuff to say.

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I disagree with it, obviously, but I think there's a

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lot of questions out there, Like I've watched, I have a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of good stuff to say. I disagree with it.

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How is it good. If you disagree with that the first, then.

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Speaker 2: You can't have good arguments and disagree with it. Everything

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has to be shit.

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Speaker 3: Like what podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a specific one in mind right now,

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but I was just curious if you were ever to

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be open to it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've gone on some Catholic podcasts, yeah, and

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mainly for the purpose of, like again, like I've watched

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dude one hundred plus hours probably her stuff, and it

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is it'd be nice to have a lot of the

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Eastern Orthodox.

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Speaker 2: It would be Catholic, the Protestant stuff really like concise

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concise in one place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean maybe you're I don't know if you're

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new to a lot of this stuff, but I mean

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there's a long kind of backstory of just nasty interactions

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with a lot of these podcasts, So they don't I

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don't think they want me on their podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure. Yeah. I always a lot of that. So

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I then more on topic just for questions and stuff

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the Orthodox Church, because I'm doing my best to read

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up as much as they can and listen to your

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arguments and stuff. You guys reject centralized leadership, right, it's

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always a council. Is it just heading patcher?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean that's the highest authority.

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Speaker 2: See, there's no eucmenical patriarch or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, there is an ecumenical patriarch, but he's not above

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a council.

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Speaker 2: What is his position for.

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Speaker 3: Identically the same as the patriarchates in the first thousand

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years had as a canonical it's a canonical honor that

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they have within their jurisdictions, within their synods. It doesn't

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mean that they tell the rest of the church what

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to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fair, So there's multiple, there's not just one.

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Speaker 3: Well, historically there are five patriarchates. Rome broke away from

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the rest of the patriarchates. So what does that say.

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Speaker 2: I'm just asking right now currently, is there one? Is

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there multiple?

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Speaker 3: There's multiple?

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Deep for which jurisdictions?

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Speaker 3: Well, a patriarch again, is just a honorary place and

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title for people who have a position as the bishop

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of a very ancient metropolitan See. So you have the

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patriarch at of Moscow, you have the patriarch of Jerusalem,

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you have the patriarch Constantinople, Patriarch of Alexandria, Patriarch of Antioch. Right,

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so these are the main ancient patriarchal see. Of course

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Russia is not antriarchy, but in the Orthodox view, there

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can be through conciliar gift, you could say, or honor

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autocephalist churches. So the Council of Ephesus created the Autocephalis

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Church of Cyprus. Did you know that?

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Speaker 2: By the way, I not oside my head. I'm sure

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read it somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Well, so I'm asking that is like many Roman Catholics the.

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Speaker 2: Question I'm sorry I miss the question.

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Speaker 3: There was a statement many Roman Catholic The reason I'm

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asking you that is that many Roman Catholics are not

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aware of autocephalist churches, and so when they hear that,

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they think it's something that we as Orthodox have made up.

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And what I'm saying is that if you look at

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the Council of Ephesus, they create out of the council

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the first autocephalist church. So it's a thing that your

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church did as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, yeah, I can understand that. So there's multiple patriarchs.

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There's not one you can medical patriarch. They're all acting

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in that role. Correct.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's one person who has the title ecumenical patriarch

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and that's Constantinople. And the reason that he has that

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role is because in the ancient Canons Constantinople Council one

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in three eighty one they said, let Constantinople or Old

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or New Rome have the place after Old Rome in

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the canonical list. So the Canons of the councils gave

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to Constantinople the number two roll.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, canon three? Is that imperial or is that episodic?

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Speaker 3: Is what an imperial or epistolic?

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Speaker 2: I'm giving that phmacy can't say.

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Speaker 3: Well, if a council does it, by definition, it's a

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ecumenical action if it's an ecumenical council. But Rome didn't

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accept that until many centuries later.

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Speaker 2: Are you asking me if I'm asking the historical reasoning

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for constant privacy being brought up in canond three? Uh?

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Speaker 3: To my knowledge, there's nothing apostolic about it. It is

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accorded to that church from the council.

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Speaker 2: Does that not like raise eyebrows for you at all?

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Speaker 6: Or not?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: My gosh, here we go. Are you the guy that

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always calls in and doesn't know anything about this topic

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and has the same stupid debate every time we do this.

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Speaker 2: This is my second time calling it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I thought that's why I thought, does what

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not reason? Do you not understand what I do has

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told you about the autoct Okay, why you interrupting me? No,

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you don't understand why you're interrupting. Don't interrupt me. If

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you listen to what I said about autocephalist churches, if

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an ecumenical council can grant to the Church of Cyprus

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an autocephalist independent status, that it doesn't matter if the

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church is quote Apostolic, they have the fullness of the

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Apostolic faith because they've been given that from an Apostolic council.

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Ecumenical councils are Apostolic councils because they're apostles successors doing it.

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So there's nothing about the ecumenical patriarch it that makes it.

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You're referring to the claim that's later on where Constantinople says,

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maybe we have Apostolic pedigree like Rome. They don't, so,

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but that has nothing to do with whether a council

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can grant to these bishoprics that authority. And do you

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not understand that Rome Constantinople as second centuries later?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't want to dismiss what you

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said at all. It doesn't necessarily answer my question or

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my point, but to kind of give more context, do

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that the I don't cephalos excuse me, was and I'm

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going to time my head so I literally might be

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mistaken here, and you can tell me. Wasn't Ukraine given

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that in Russia not? Or was it vice versa or something?

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Speaker 3: Ukraine is not an autocephalist church. Ukraine was under the

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Russian Church because Ukraine is an ancient Russian area.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, So again I don't want to dismiss your point,

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and I just think it subverts what I'm actually what

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I'm actually saying.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand your point, man, I'm not. I'm trying

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to be patient with you because I don't want to

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argue in fair Okay, So explain to me you're trying

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to say, because I have no idea what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I'm looking for clarification on what. So

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like Rome as clear apostolic, IM sorry for being you

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know throughout history we all I think we both agree.

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Speaker 3: That again you're you're misunderstanding right away. So Rome being

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apostolic is does has nothing to do with whether or

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not other churches are also Apostolic. Antioch Antioch is apostolic,

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Jerusalem is apostolic, said, Alexandria is Apostolic. Yep, okay, that's

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let me finish in our view that in the in

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the history of the churches and the Council and the Fathers,

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those churches are honored because of their lineage and because

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of their ancient history. It does not detract from any

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other church later established, like say the Moscow patriarch It.

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It doesn't mean they're less Apostolic because they're not an

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ancient Apostolic church. It's just an honor, that's it. There's

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nothing about those churches that makes them more Christian, more holy,

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more powerful than the others, because, as Ignacious says, the

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fullness of the church is where the bishop and the

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sacraments are.

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Speaker 2: Agree.

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Speaker 3: Well, you don't agree with that because you don't believe that,

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and you always argue that you're you were arguing, come on, man,

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don't play these games. What what's your point? Man, dude,

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you've called in with these same arguments.

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Speaker 2: Come on second time?

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Speaker 3: Being okay the second time, yes, help me understand your argument.

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I don't get what you're I'm.

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Speaker 2: Not even making an argument. I'm really looking for clarification,

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which you're partially given. But you've also ranted past where

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I'm trying to go.

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Speaker 3: Because I don't think you understand these topics. Maybe you

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need to be ranted at because you don't know what

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these topics are about. Brother, do you do? I don't

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think you do. You didn't know what an autocephalistic which

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was you don't know? Okay, So if how do you

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know these topics? If you don't know what an autocephalist

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church is.

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Speaker 7: I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: If the top of my head, it's freaking nine o'clock.

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Put my kid to bed, Like, what do you want

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from me? I'm coming onto your show trying to ask

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a question in your details.

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Speaker 3: No, you're not. You're you're acting like like you know

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these you don't know the subject matter.

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Speaker 2: About five Anusker Well, Rome does this? It's like, I

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don't care what Rome does right now, I'm asking you

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a question.

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Speaker 3: Are you Roman Catholic?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Then you do care what Rome does? What are you

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talking about?

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Speaker 2: Not from not I'm pertaining to the conversation. I'm asking

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you a question about the imperial decrease.

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Speaker 3: Not being passive aggressive, just make your argument.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So again, it's not really an argument's more just I'm.

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Speaker 3: Curious, make your point.

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Speaker 2: Why was it based on an imperial decree and rather

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than apastolic authority like Rome had. Then later I understand

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you explained that part I'm trying to finish. Then later

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you have the instance where which everyone warned concept about

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was I think six hundred I think it was Saint Gregory.

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The East was calling themselves the universal Bishop. So how

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does this stuff not continue to lead to those issues

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where now you have a euc medical patriarch which is

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apparently just an honorary title, has no actual meaning.

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Speaker 3: Are you saying that that's what I said? I said,

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it's an honorary tiger where he has canonical privileges in

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his jurisdiction. I didn't say it had no extra Sorry,

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go ahead. I didn't say it had no meaning. Don't

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put words in my mouth.

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Speaker 2: No, I said that. I'm not saying you said, Okay,

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I'm sair enough. Has he ever exercised any primacy authority

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in over the church? So for example, you guys can't

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agree on if someone should be rebaptized, right, So if.

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Speaker 3: Don't play this one game Dude, you're starting to piss

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me off. That's not true that we don't agree with

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that because some people have disagreements online. You're assuming that

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we can't figure this out or agree with it. It's

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because of the principle stop interrupting me, or we're never

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going to talk again. Okay, good, it's because of the

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principle of the interpretation at a local level that's allowed.

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And so there's not a one size fits all rule.

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You don't even know that your own canons of your

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church in the ancient then the sixth Council, for example,

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specify that certain people have to be rebaptized even if

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they were baptized in a Trinitarian formula, for example, the

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Politians or the Eunomians, because it was a Unitarian baptism

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even though it said the right words. So there's canonical

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reasons why we do that. It's not an issue of

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we can't figure it out. It's left to the local

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bishops to decide that. And that's how the church did

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in the first thousand years.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And by the way, I'm perfectly fine accepting stuff

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like remarks like that, I'm not staying outright. Hey, you

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guys do this, Like, if you want to correct me

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on that stuff, that's great. I've had multiple Orthodox priests

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tell many different things.

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Speaker 3: That's why, well guess what, I guess how many Roman

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Catholic priests are going to tell me different things? So

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that's what does that prove?

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Speaker 2: That's fair? I think that's fair. I'm just telling you

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I can say that based off the experience I've had

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with the Orthodox people that I've spoken to. So I

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don't want to take up so much more time, but

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one more question of would have then if you have

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these like schisms, these ethnic based schisms, right, So you.

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Speaker 3: Mean like in the Roman Caloic church like in Antioch

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where there's three patriarchs of Antioch.

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Speaker 2: That no more ethnic centric?

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Speaker 3: So like, does that ever happen in Roman Catholic churches

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like Croatia where they're ethnocentric? Do you mean like liturgically?

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You said ethnocentric liturgically is linguistic? So well, I guess.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to undertand.

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Speaker 3: When I go to if I go to Poland, is

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it ethnocentrically Catholic or what it's Catholic? Oh, but it's

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not nothing centrically Catholic.

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Speaker 2: Well, if I if I go down the road to

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my Catholic this is again getting off the topic of

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my question.

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Speaker 3: No, it's so you you load your questions with these

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passive aggressive jobs and then you act like a victim

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when I call that out aggressive. No, come on, dude, No,

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I know my heart.

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Speaker 2: Dude, it's not as aggressive, I promise you. I literally,

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I'm just trying to engage these things that literally from

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me mm hmm yeah literally, yeah. But why do you

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have such a war.

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Speaker 3: Editor because you're it's it's inauthentic, dude. I've done this

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for twenty years. I can spot the passive aggressive bullshit

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any day.

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Speaker 2: I actually think it would be good buddies. But uh,

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that's yeah. Another time.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's because you guys always act the same way.

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You do the same stuff, and I can tell by

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the way and then you interrupt me a year you're

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asking loaded questions and you load it with the passive

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aggressive jabs like so like with you're that's nocentric religion,

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and you know what that's getting at. You're trying to

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say the Orthodoxy isn't ethnocentric, and we have these problems

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as if your own freaking gay church doesn't have that problem.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm asking in what way do we have

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that problem?

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Speaker 8: Then?

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Speaker 3: Are you serious?

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Speaker 2: Dude?

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Speaker 3: Made a claim? Are Mexicans ethnocentric with their with their Catholicism?

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Speaker 2: Meaning what give me an example?

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Speaker 3: My gosh, all right, don't ever talk to me again.

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Just go away. Yeah, you can't actually make good arguments,

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and that's why you because your arguments are retarded and

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stupid and they just rambled. They are you think, I

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don't know what a loaded question and a loaded loaded

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statement is.

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Speaker 2: If a question appears, if someone's interested in and they

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get these.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't believe you are because you come

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and you ask bad faith questions.

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Speaker 9: That's why.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying their bad faith and they're just there

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questions that appear.

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Speaker 3: All the chat. Believe that you're gaslighting and being a bitch.

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So you're calling me a bitch.

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Speaker 2: I literally don't care.

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Speaker 3: Well good, that's God's good that you don't care, because

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nobody's buying your crap.

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Speaker 2: That's why it's not crap.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you make an argument? Why can't you make

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an actual argument?

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't come here to argue with you, but

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you did.

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Speaker 3: You did because you're debating, So just be honest and debate.

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I would respect you more.

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Speaker 2: I know you get a hard on from debating people. Yeah,

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I'm literally trying not to do that. I'm trying to

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engage Eastern Orthodoxy polemically, yes, like obviously from an apology.

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Speaker 3: Okay, polemics is debating. So why are you talking bullshit again?

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Speaker 2: Like you're not debating and stating that my questions while

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they arrive in polemic nature.

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Speaker 3: That's debating. Stop being such a skittles man and just

386
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make your point like a man. Dude. What's your argument?

387
00:20:46,839 --> 00:20:47,599
What's your question?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 3: Everyone believes your bad faith, so you've not convinced anyone

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that you argue with.

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Speaker 2: You want to talk about jealousy?

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Speaker 3: Stop, how's that a fallacy? It's an analysis of everyone everyone.

393
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,480
I don't sound like that, dude.

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Speaker 2: You're in your chat. Of course everyone's going to agree

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with you.

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Speaker 3: Jay, there's plenty of Protestants in the chat.

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Speaker 2: I don't want no pro agree with me.

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Speaker 3: So you've you've missed on. You didn't know what autocephalist

399
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churches are, and you're here to tell me that. You said, yeah,

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because it's embarrassing. You said you know these topics.

401
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Speaker 2: Right, yes, embarrassed me.

402
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 3: No, I do know the topics, but you don't know

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a basic about church history and church governance.

404
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Speaker 2: So, like I said, it's nine o'clock.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so that's your excuse, Yeah, because your kids are goodbye,

406
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waste of time, and everybody knows you're being a slam ball.

407
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:53,960
Right up. I do know these topics, but I'm putting

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my kiss of better and it's nine o'clock. Nine o'clock,

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so what and everybody here saw him. They love to

410
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,519
throw these jabs, the passive aggressive Roman Catholics will throw these.

411
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So you're you're ethnic churches. It's like a Roman Calgary

412
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,119
church is not ethnically based. What are you talking about?

413
00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:18,400
What do you even mean? What do you mean? Or

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00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:26,119
Mexicans death? No Catholics, like obviously you know what I mean? Ryok,

415
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:26,799
what's up on you?

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Speaker 2: Hey? What's up?

417
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Speaker 8: Jay?

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Speaker 10: I'm a Catechuman, but I thought this was a relevant topic.

419
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I wanted to get some clarity on. I asked my

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priests about it, and it's kind of a gray area.

421
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I'm a transitioning to Greek Greek Orthodox from Protestantism or

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like non denomination, I guess, and can you hear me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's not catechumen nights. So I'm not trying

424
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:58,400
to be mean to you, but I asked for people

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who disagree. So what your question?

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Speaker 10: So my church, we have a relic of the Holy Cross, right,

427
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and we had the service last night, and uh, there's

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Catholic church that is also attending. So I kind of asked, like,

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isn't this like not allowed, Like isn't it heresy?

430
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Speaker 1: Oh?

431
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Speaker 3: I mean I don't know that exactly what's going on,

432
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but like for them to come and attend is not

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necessarily wrong. But if they're giving the Eucharist to Roman

434
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Catholics that would be bad news. But uh, yeah, you

435
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,039
might want to find a you know, better Orthodox church.

436
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,519
All y'all, People do not bring me those kinds of

437
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,279
I'm not being I'm just not in the mood for

438
00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:44,640
the catechumen questions. Man, I'm all hyped up, and I'm like,

439
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,759
we got two idiots in a row? Low, what's up?

440
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:52,079
Speaker 11: Hello?

441
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,279
Speaker 8: Can you hear me?

442
00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 3: Yep? All right?

443
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Speaker 12: So my first question is I didn't watch a lot

444
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:07,480
of content a few how did you came to the

445
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,480
conclusion that you want to be Orthodox or that orthodox

446
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,960
is is that in.

447
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Speaker 3: The topic, that is the topic. My journey into Orthodoxy

448
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,640
Protestantism is false. Proved me wrong. It's not my testimony today.

449
00:24:24,079 --> 00:24:27,119
Anybody from this point out not keeping to the topic.

450
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,319
You're out mocking profit.

451
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Speaker 8: Hey Jay, you.

452
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Speaker 7: Had a posting on recently on X a couple of

453
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number of Church Fathers canon lists, and notice that you

454
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,160
circle first and second eestras on a few of them,

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Ethinatious being one of them.

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Speaker 8: Just wondering, isn't that ezra nei maya correct?

457
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Speaker 7: Okay, it looked like you were circling it as is

458
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to show that it's an not one of the canonical.

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Speaker 3: No, it's canonical because it's titled differently. But I was

460
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,880
circling from my own personal notes at the time I

461
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,039
read that book when I was Protestant, right, so that's

462
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,960
my notes from twenty years ago. Okay, twenty five, twenty

463
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,559
three years ago, got it?

464
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 5: So?

465
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Speaker 7: Okay, just on that point then, like, how do you,

466
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as an Orthodox.

467
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Speaker 8: I'm a Protestant, so how do he as an Orthodox.

468
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Speaker 7: Understand the canon lists, especially with like Athenais being really

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you know, much closer to a Protestant canon and not

470
00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:39,839
just Athenians. You got the other Eastern fathers as well,

471
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,160
pretty early ones that are closer to a Protestant canon.

472
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,759
Speaker 3: No, they're not. I don't even know what are you

473
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:46,480
even talking about?

474
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 8: Well, I mean the list that you had there of

475
00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:51,599
Athenais for example, I mean I don't have in front

476
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:51,799
of me.

477
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 13: But you know it doesn't have the Macabees on there.

478
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,559
He doesn't list t bit Uh, it's just a bunch

479
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:02,119
of them like there.

480
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 7: It's a closer canon list to Protestantism than it.

481
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: Is to So again, did you not hear like the

482
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,000
first hour today?

483
00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 8: No?

484
00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:11,079
Speaker 6: I didn't.

485
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: Okay, it's fine, let me scroll back to it. So

486
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,680
individual church fathers lists are just one way of demonstrating

487
00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:25,680
variation and debate about the Old Testament canon. Okay. Athanasia

488
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:30,799
specifically says that the deuterocanonical texts are the best for

489
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,160
catech humans to read. So the fact that he says

490
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,200
that it's for categ humans means that it does teach

491
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,799
theology and doctrine, because this is what you're teaching the

492
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,440
new people in the church, right, So he doesn't just

493
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,079
because something is a Deutero canon does not mean it's

494
00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:50,200
not inspired or not canon It means that it's specifically

495
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:53,279
its own purpose for catechisis it doesn't have the same

496
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,880
import as the rest of the text. But that does

497
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,319
not mean that it's not canonical, nor does that mean

498
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,279
it's not inspired. What I argued was, if you go

499
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:07,440
to the example of the Canons of the Apostles, the

500
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,000
apstol Canons, which is early church law, you're familiar with that?

501
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:13,079
Speaker 8: No? Not not with that one?

502
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 5: Okay?

503
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: Can you pull up Apostolic canons on your phone? Are

504
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:18,519
you on online right now? Or not?

505
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 8: Just on my phone?

506
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,839
Speaker 3: Okay? So Canon eighty five of the Apostles, this is

507
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,160
the normative church law in the East right in the

508
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,960
three hundreds, and it lists the Deuterocononical books as the Bible.

509
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:38,799
So the normative canon beyond just one church Father Athanasius

510
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,240
in Canon eighty five of the Apostles, does include it's

511
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,960
called the apstol Canons. It does include the Deuteroconical text.

512
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,400
It does not even specify that there are a separate

513
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,440
section section, separate second group. It just says they're the

514
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,480
Old Testament contemporary with this a few years after let's

515
00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,279
say this is three hundreds, maybe it's three fifty, because

516
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,400
it's between three to four hundred not too long after that,

517
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,799
you have the Council of Rome that Augustine agrees to

518
00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:13,519
that Pope Damasis affirms, which does include the dudocononical texts

519
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,519
as the canon. And at the same time that councils

520
00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:20,079
of Carthage affirm the Dudo canonical texts, and for the

521
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,519
Orthodox Church, by the time of Trollo and the Seventh

522
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:29,880
Ecumenical Council it affirms the canons of Carthage. So the

523
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,880
East and the West by the time of Trollo and

524
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,279
the Seventh Ecmmenical Council all agree universally that the Dutero

525
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,519
Canon is part of the Bible, the text that hold

526
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:45,839
on last thing, last thing, last thing. The Protestant excuse me,

527
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:50,839
the list that I have Melito of Sartists does not have.

528
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:55,359
It's not the Protestant Canon. In fact, we showed that

529
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,680
earlier because Melito's list includes Wisdom. So this is not

530
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:04,359
actually accurate. Athanasius Is canon has Barrack in it. Barack

531
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,920
is not in the Protestant Bible, so that's not going

532
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,000
to help you. Yeah.

533
00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:12,119
Speaker 8: So okay, So a couple of things here. One is

534
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,799
maybe I'll go maybe I'll go former than and then

535
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:23,359
go to the latter. So Trullo is, so how do you?

536
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:23,799
Speaker 11: How do you?

537
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 8: Is Truello? Where you get your h The main list

538
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,559
of canon.

539
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 3: For your Trello affirms Carthage, and the Seventh Ecumenical Council

540
00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:36,480
affirms Trollo and Carthage.

541
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, so, so okay, John Saint John Damascus, he doesn't.

542
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 8: He's after Trullo. And why wouldn't he.

543
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,279
Speaker 3: Affirm Trullo Because because he's riding at the time of

544
00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:57,960
the Seventh Ecumenical Council, he's one of the theologians, that's

545
00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:00,960
the his theology is used at the seventh Aeminical Council,

546
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,880
and the Orthodox view does not have a rigid notion

547
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,720
of this. We have flexibility because even as later John Damascus,

548
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:13,039
as you're pointing out, he probably thought that the Canons

549
00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:16,880
of the Apostles is the right canon because canon's' Apostles

550
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,960
includes Clement. So most likely John Damascus thought that Canon

551
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,240
eighty five was the right canon, and that's why he

552
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:25,319
listed as he does.

553
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 7: Okay, So okay, So if I go to your other

554
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,920
point there, why do these guys, you know, even Serle

555
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:43,519
of Jerusalem, the Cirl Jerusalem Athinatious, Uh, I think one

556
00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:48,599
of the Cappadocians that that actually lists the canons there.

557
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 8: You know they don't.

558
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 7: They don't have these books that.

559
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:52,359
Speaker 8: That you have.

560
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: And hell, what are you talking about?

561
00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 8: Like they don't list for Sirl Jerusalem.

562
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,359
Speaker 7: He actually says that he does in list the Dudoconicals.

563
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 8: He says, don't even read them. And he says that.

564
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:04,319
Speaker 3: No, he doesn't.

565
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, he says, by the apostles the list that he has.

566
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 3: Where does he say not to read the Dudoconical texts.

567
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,519
I've read the catechetical lectures. So where are you getting that?

568
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 8: I could pull it up right now.

569
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:28,519
Speaker 3: But so I mean in the list that Lee McDonald has, Uh,

570
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,839
Cyril of Jerusalem also has Barrack. And as I pointed out,

571
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,960
when Athanasius talks about these texts, he says the Duo.

572
00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:41,880
He says, the Wisdom texts of Wisdom of Solomon and Syruc.

573
00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:46,119
He says, those are great for catechumens to read. So again,

574
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,599
the fact that they're not listed in that list does

575
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,440
not mean that for the Orthodox Church they're not part

576
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,200
of the canon. You're just assuming that canon must be

577
00:31:57,519 --> 00:31:59,640
read in the Protestant sense, like, we don't have a

578
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,480
problem with flexibility on this because we believe in tradition.

579
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, okay, so if if yeah, so your.

580
00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:18,839
Speaker 7: Point about Athenaious listing judochrononical book like barug I think

581
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,279
the Protestant claim is more that that these canons are

582
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,279
closer to the Protestant canon, not that they're not.

583
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:25,799
Speaker 1: Though.

584
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: That's the thing is that it's not so oh so

585
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:30,240
now it's moving the goalpost, so now it's closer, right,

586
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:31,359
So it's not the protest.

587
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:33,039
Speaker 8: I can So that's been my point from the beginnings.

588
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 7: I always said, we're the Protestant canon is closer to

589
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,079
what these guys are claiming than what.

590
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 8: You guys are.

591
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:42,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, but again you're missing the point, which is ironic

592
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:46,920
because the ecumen, the more broad accepted canon beyond just

593
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:50,839
individual church fathers, is the Deutero canonical text in the

594
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,880
East on the basis of the Apostolic canons Canon eighty five.

595
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,119
That's church law, which is more widespread and normative than

596
00:32:58,559 --> 00:32:59,960
just what Athanasius thought.

597
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,039
Speaker 8: But I mean, why wouldn't.

598
00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:08,079
Speaker 3: Because they didn't believe in soul scripture. Man, That's why

599
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,640
because they weren't thinking that the church follows one written

600
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,279
authority as its final authority. They can have different canons

601
00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:19,160
because it's not a religion based around the book. That's

602
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:19,599
the point.

603
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,559
Speaker 7: Okay, So okay, So Cyril Cyril's catecular lectures here, he

604
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,880
says that, Oh, man, I don't know if you have

605
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,480
it there.

606
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 8: But he says he lists the canon.

607
00:33:33,319 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 7: He says, these are the ones that have been handed

608
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,640
down by the apostles, or that were handed down to us.

609
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,359
He says, there's there's a twenty two book canon, so

610
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,640
you know, aligned to the Jewish counting, not necessarily identical.

611
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,119
Speaker 3: This is not going to help you. What's his new

612
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:48,920
Testament canon?

613
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 8: Zinon Testament cannon is.

614
00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 7: Seven Catholic epistles, James Peter, John Jude, the epistles of Paul.

615
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, notice anything missing?

616
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: Probably revelation correct.

617
00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 3: So how's that going to help you? Why are we

618
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:08,159
supposed to follow him?

619
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:10,679
Speaker 8: Well, no, I'm not saying that we need to follow

620
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:11,760
any one person.

621
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,519
Speaker 3: Well, now it's moving. Now we move the goalpost, right,

622
00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:17,480
so now it's now it's not any of them, who

623
00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:17,840
is it?

624
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 5: No?

625
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 7: I think that I think that the canon does come

626
00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:25,559
through tradition. I'm not denying that as a Protestant. I'm

627
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,320
what I argue as a Protestant is that I think

628
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,679
that the church Fathers are we're trying to get to

629
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,440
a twenty two canon.

630
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:36,159
Speaker 8: I really think that the twenty two book is something

631
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,719
that was handed down to them. It's consistent.

632
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: Well, on what basis are you're just asserting list because

633
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,159
they all say that, like, no, they don't, No, they

634
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,639
don't books. He doesn't have the Book of Revelation. What

635
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:48,320
are you talking.

636
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 8: About about Old Testament canon?

637
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 3: The question is how do you on what? How do

638
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,079
you know the epistemic principle that you're saying is the

639
00:34:57,159 --> 00:34:59,400
right way to go about deciding? Is that all the

640
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,159
church father dis church Father many of them? How do

641
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,960
you know you're just asserting these things. Oh, it's the

642
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,480
twenty two we're.

643
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,119
Speaker 7: Trying to get to the you know, we're trying to

644
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,800
the beat is over. The Old Testament can not necessarily

645
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:11,239
new one.

646
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: No, it's no, it's not. This is false. It's both

647
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,519
of them because the way that you know both of

648
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:20,280
them is the same means tradition. That's why, that's how,

649
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:20,719
that's what.

650
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's one means, and I agree with you, it's.

651
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,199
Speaker 3: The only means. How do you know, Matthew wrote, Matthew.

652
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 7: Well, there's a couple of ways that you could go

653
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,679
about that. Tradition is super helpful for that that, Matthew wrote, Matthew,

654
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,599
but we also have you know.

655
00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:37,639
Speaker 8: That it dates to the first century. It doesn't date

656
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:38,719
to the second or third sevend.

657
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 3: A lot of forgeries date and pseudographa date early.

658
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,199
Speaker 8: So what yeah, but none of them dates to the

659
00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:44,760
first century?

660
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,679
Speaker 3: No, well does How do you know that? That's the criteria?

661
00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:50,679
You're just asserting those things as principles? Are they self?

662
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:52,679
Are those self evident principles?

663
00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 8: No? But nobody.

664
00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:57,159
Speaker 7: How do you know the Gospel of Thomas, for example,

665
00:35:57,199 --> 00:35:58,480
this is probably the earliest gospel.

666
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 3: How do you know that because it's old, it's therefore

667
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,440
part of the canon. That's what you're asserting these things

668
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,039
as if they're self evident. How on what basis?

669
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 7: You asked me, how do I know that, Matthew roll Matthew,

670
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,400
and one of them is that?

671
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:11,519
Speaker 5: What?

672
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: Obviously No, I said that, But I'm making the point

673
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,679
that tradition is necessary. And you conceded that, And then

674
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:20,960
you said there's other means too, like it's old, Well,

675
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,039
how does it being old tell you that it's canonical.

676
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:26,400
That's an assumption, because there's fake documents that are old too.

677
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 8: Sure, there is fake doctuments that rule.

678
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 7: But if any fake documents is written to be purported

679
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,400
to be written by an apossible but it's not in

680
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,119
the first century.

681
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 3: How do we know that your list of these principles

682
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,400
is the right list that we're supposed to all follow.

683
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:46,239
This is the point. This is Protestant self popery. You're

684
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,880
the new pope that's gonna tell us the list. Oh

685
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,280
you see, I've derived that the church fathers wanted a

686
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,960
twenty two book Old Testament canon even though the majority

687
00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:58,400
of them don't have that, because I just gave you

688
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,920
church law which was more widespread than individual guys. And

689
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,360
then you're saying, well, who cares what individual guys said?

690
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,679
It's not this guy or that guy or that guy.

691
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 7: I'm not saying who cares the individual I think it's important,

692
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,639
like I think that affenacious. These church fathers also operate

693
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,079
under this principle.

694
00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:16,639
Speaker 3: Like, okay, how do you know the principal's true? Where

695
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:19,199
are you getting it from?

696
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 7: Well, we want to know who the apostles were, who

697
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,840
wrote those texts we get it from.

698
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: I'll tell now, I thought we were telling the Deutero cannon.

699
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,800
You said, it's twenty two books.

700
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,079
Speaker 8: How do we know, Oh, yeah, the Old Testament book?

701
00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, So there's a number of arguments for Old

702
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:35,280
Testament canadal.

703
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,079
Speaker 3: No, no, no, you gave a principle that we want to

704
00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:41,960
do this. What is the basis for your assertion that

705
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,800
that's what we're supposed to follow? How do you know that?

706
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,639
Speaker 8: Like, that's what the church fathers?

707
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,599
Speaker 3: Who where we received the That's begging the question because

708
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,800
I'm giving you countless church fathers that contend with that.

709
00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:57,719
Who's right?

710
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 11: Oh?

711
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 3: Because the church father should it?

712
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 8: Well, I know there's other arguments as well.

713
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 7: For example, I'll give you like, there's many arguments.

714
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: What's the argument for that principle of the books that

715
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,480
use it's these books this number, what's the argument for that?

716
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,119
That's not circular? How do you know?

717
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 8: The argument is this?

718
00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 7: We want to know the canon that the Old Testament canon.

719
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,519
Speaker 8: That Jesus and the apostles used. How do we get

720
00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:23,880
to that?

721
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,599
Speaker 3: Well, did you know that the Deutero canonical books uh,

722
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,119
excuse me. The Septus includes the du canon.

723
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 8: Yes, I'm aware of that.

724
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 3: Okay. Do the Apostles cite the deuterocanonical texts, yes, they did.

725
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,639
Speaker 8: They did, they say to the Seuz. I don't not

726
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:41,320
where that they said to.

727
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,639
Speaker 3: You don't even know the New Testament references to the

728
00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:50,199
dudoconical texts. Not explicitly, No, there's many explicit ones. But

729
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,119
what's the basis for your assertion of your axiom? How

730
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:54,159
do you know that that's the case?

731
00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:55,039
Speaker 8: Okay?

732
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 7: So one additional argument I was going to say is,

733
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,920
if we want to know what Jesus and the Apostles

734
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,559
believed was canon, there's some internal evidence in the New Testament,

735
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:07,039
so you know.

736
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 3: That has not that you understand? The question is prior

737
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,000
to you citing the New Testament, I want to know

738
00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:13,800
the basis for what the list of the Old and

739
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,079
New Testament books are. You're saying, let's go to the

740
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:18,679
New Testament books. We don't know that they're canon yet.

741
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:19,639
This is the prior question.

742
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 8: You talk about the twenty two books.

743
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 3: Either one, dude, because it's the same principle for us

744
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,800
as to an authority post apostles to determine and compile

745
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,800
a binding decision, loosing and binding upon the church. The

746
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,079
thousand years of the First the first thousand years of

747
00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:38,880
Christianity has Orthodox church fathers doing that and councils doing that.

748
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:42,519
You're telling me that's all wrong. Listen to me, mister

749
00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:43,159
Protestant man.

750
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 7: Well, no, I believe I'm operating under the same principles

751
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,719
as Athenaious and these guys.

752
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 3: Why are we supposed to follow Athenasius because there's other

753
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,920
church fathers that disagree with Athenasious and Athenasius says that that.

754
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:58,800
Athanasius says catech cumans should be catechised with the Doer canon.

755
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,599
Speaker 7: Do you believe that, I think says that duder canons

756
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:05,760
cannot be used for canon for doctrine linkedown.

757
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:11,119
Speaker 3: No, he doesn't, he says, so he wants catechory. He

758
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:16,239
says catecumans should be catechized with the Dutero canonical text

759
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,280
like Wisdom and serrac But you're telling me that, but

760
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:23,199
you shouldn't learn doctrine from them. Catechumens are learning doctrine.

761
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,639
Speaker 8: Well, he says, you can't establish doctrine. Yeah, you can

762
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,239
read it and learn from this. There's a lot of

763
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,480
books you can read learn from it.

764
00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 3: I think, why are we supposed to follow Athenais and

765
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,079
not Augustine?

766
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,599
Speaker 8: Well, because you can follow anyone.

767
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 3: Oh, we can follow any we want exactly, and that's

768
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,320
why I Protestant. All right, we're done, so you can

769
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,599
follow anyone you want. I'm glad you think it's funny.

770
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:53,320
So thanks for wasting my time with all this ahead

771
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:53,920
question for you.

772
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 8: One more question for you?

773
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 3: Why are we supposed to follow athenaious over Augustine's cannon?

774
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,599
Speaker 8: We're supposed to try and get to the oldest canon possible.

775
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,039
Speaker 3: Says who you just keep as certain? How do you

776
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:08,440
know that that's so? Now it's the oldest. That's a fallacy.

777
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,079
Speaker 8: We're trying to get to the twenty two canon tradition.

778
00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 3: How do you know that it's that you just keep

779
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,559
as certain? Who'se it's twenty two because it's twenty two?

780
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:22,800
Who Cyril doesn't help your case? He doesn't have your cannon.

781
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,760
He's a bishop. What do you how does he help

782
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:25,119
your case?

783
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 8: Explicitly says twenty two books?

784
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,079
Speaker 3: So what why are we You're just you don't understand.

785
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,519
You keep arbitrarily saying this father, no, this father, no,

786
00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:38,599
this father. On what basis is that right? Because it's

787
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:41,840
old that's a fallacy.

788
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,639
Speaker 8: So I believe it's right based on the multiple traditions

789
00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:48,119
from him.

790
00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 3: Now it's multiple traditions, and how do you know which

791
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,239
ones are right? What's your epistemic basis?

792
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 8: Epistemic basis is that all the Church fathers seem to agree.

793
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: With all of them, know they don't. Now you're lying,

794
00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:02,880
But let's get out of here. All of them agree.

795
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:10,039
Come on, we just showed you they don't agree. Waste

796
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:14,920
of time byzantine?

797
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 14: What hi from astrective astle. So this is about the

798
00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:23,840
topic of you know, Protestants and all that. Like when

799
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,599
I talk to Protestants who know their stuff, they always

800
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,559
use like little disagreements between early Church fathers as a

801
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:33,800
reason to downplay them. They even sometimes use being quiet

802
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,159
on a certain matter as a reason to disregard that. Yes,

803
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,440
the early Church believe the stuff that the Orthodox believe. However,

804
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,079
one thing that sort of scares me jay is the

805
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,360
fact that they use this idea that John Chris, sorry

806
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,840
John Christosten had a sort of a lesser view of

807
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,639
Mary than you know, say, I talk to us than

808
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,360
most orthodox that I talk to do, can you like

809
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,360
sort of address.

810
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 9: Like you know what I mean?

811
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 3: It's like again' It's like I think a lot of

812
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,360
Protestants go to the Church father and treat the Church

813
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,280
Fathers with a Protestant mindset the way they would treat

814
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,000
the Bible. And we do not believe that the Church

815
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:12,639
Fathers are infallible or got everything right. In fact, the

816
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,119
variations and debates about the canon itself shows that many

817
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:19,719
of them got it wrong. But we don't say that

818
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,159
they're not saints or that they're not church fathers because

819
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:25,639
they got these varying canon lists wrong. So we don't

820
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:29,679
have this strict attitude. But Protestants quote mine and cherry

821
00:43:29,679 --> 00:43:32,880
pick to prove Protestantism. That's it, and they exclude the

822
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,119
things that go against product. So I've not done a

823
00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:38,840
study on Saint John Christism's view of Mary, but I

824
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,840
won't have a problem saying that he got it wrong,

825
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,639
just like Jerome got things wrong, just like Gregor Vnissa

826
00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:46,599
got things wrong, Augustine got things wrong. So we're I

827
00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:51,000
think we're a lot more flexible and realistic with admitting

828
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,960
that church fathers got things wrong. And the iron is

829
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,639
that Protestants have an even lower view of the Church

830
00:43:56,639 --> 00:43:58,960
fathers than we do, and they're going to just sit

831
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,920
there and pick appanations as canon. But I mean, it's

832
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,840
because it's Cyril said it, because another guy, but it's

833
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:05,920
not Augustine.

834
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 14: It's annoying when they do this, isn't it. Yeah go ahead, yeah, yeah,

835
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:11,559
it's very annoying.

836
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,519
Speaker 2: When they do that. So, like.

837
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 14: So, like before coming into this sort of like like

838
00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:20,480
mindset of I always thought, well, if the church father

839
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:22,599
said it, there must be sort of like a union

840
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:25,639
between what they believed. And then prost and Church started

841
00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:28,840
showing me that there was disagreements among them, and so

842
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:29,920
I got a bit scared.

843
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, how am I going to do this?

844
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 14: And then I started listening to people like you and

845
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:39,079
like and other people who speak on them, and I

846
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:42,400
realized it's okay, Like, it's okay that sometimes they got

847
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,559
stuff wrong. They're not fallible. They're not like they're not God.

848
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: Or any exactly.

849
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:48,639
Speaker 2: They're not infallible.

850
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,599
Speaker 14: So I'm no longer scared by the fact that they

851
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,800
made mistakes and that they disagree with each other from

852
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,760
certain options. However, like, so this is why I got

853
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,519
like the idea of like John Crosostigty because actually sort

854
00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:02,920
of scared me because me myself, I think I have

855
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,239
a bit of a high view of the theos.

856
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 2: Like but yeah, so thanks for that.

857
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 14: But I will I will say this when it comes

858
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,320
to Protestants, though, they always try to use tactics to

859
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,480
make young believers like myself sort of drift away from

860
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,880
the faith because they think we're.

861
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:20,639
Speaker 2: Demonic for some reason.

862
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,039
Speaker 8: It's very deceptive to wouldn't wouldn't it be.

863
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:24,559
Speaker 2: Isn't it.

864
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 3: You're saying Protestants use deception to try to get you

865
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,599
to leave or the lead Orthodoxy.

866
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, sometimes they try to deceive me a bit.

867
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 8: Like I sometimes meet.

868
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: Like like like a.

869
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 14: Protestant who's KJV only kinds of people just like exactly

870
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:45,679
it as a cult exactly.

871
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,119
Speaker 2: I try to tell them this, but.

872
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 14: Like I don't even know, like I don't know, maybe

873
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,320
I'm maybe I'm maybe I'm just speaking like out of

874
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,599
my butt, But I have to I have to say

875
00:45:55,599 --> 00:45:57,320
that they can they can be they can be pretty

876
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,119
smart when they're trying to make the Catholics in the

877
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,679
Orthodoxy and like wrong about Mary and how tradition and

878
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,480
about the idea of the canon. Right, So, like, would

879
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,519
you agree that sometimes they do have to use deceptions or.

880
00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:17,079
Speaker 3: I don't know if they have to, but they tend to, right, Yeah, right,

881
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,719
But anyway, appreciate your comments. I'm trying to find here.

882
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,960
So here's it's catechetical Lecture four. I couldn't remember which

883
00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:29,119
lecture it was where he talks about the canon. And

884
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:38,079
let's see, he does include Barrack and he does not

885
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,679
list the Book of Revelation, and so I just do

886
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,639
not understand how any But then he says, oh, but

887
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:48,920
we're only going to look to him for the Old

888
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,519
Testament canon. Now wait a minute, if you're going to

889
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:55,079
cite Cyril, why is it only Cyril's Old Testament cannon

890
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:58,119
and not Cyril's New Testament. Oh, because Cyril doesn't have

891
00:46:58,119 --> 00:47:01,239
the Book of Revelation, So that doesn't help you any

892
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,639
Sola scriptura is the argument that a final, fixed, written

893
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,480
word of God is the sole final authority for the church.

894
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,719
And the point is that if the church does not

895
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,719
possess that in Toto for many centuries, then the church

896
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,760
was not operating on sola scriptura. If the church was

897
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,119
not operating on soul scriptura for centuries, then it is

898
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:34,840
not true. It's that simple, and just because by the way,

899
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,760
if I recall and I read all the Catecortical Lectures,

900
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,360
I remember making notes about this because I read it

901
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,000
when I was looking into Catholicism and leaving Protestantism. I

902
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:48,599
remember making notes. I'm pretty sure he still cites them,

903
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,079
and even to prove arguments. So even the Church Fathers

904
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,880
are not even consistent if they don't include the Duro canon,

905
00:47:55,559 --> 00:47:57,800
because many of them will still cite the Deuro Cannon

906
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,679
to prove their points in their positions. Well, let's see,

907
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,320
I'm gonna I hate to use the ai, but I'm

908
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,880
just going to do it to make it quick. Let's see,

909
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:13,480
does serial of Jerusalem. Because I don't have my church

910
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:15,639
Father's set here, it's at the other place, I can't

911
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:18,440
pull out my volume and look it up. But if

912
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,960
you do have the Chaft set, you should have an

913
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,840
appendix in the back of the Catechetical Lectures which should

914
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:29,079
show you any places where he cites dud canonical texts,

915
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,159
and even Jerome, if I recall, will cite duterocanonical texts

916
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:37,159
as well. And it's like well, he doesn't believe it

917
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:41,199
proves doctrine. Well, maybe he's being inconsistent. Do you ever

918
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:50,800
think about that, because we don't have any problem in

919
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,159
meaning that the Church father are inconsistent. Does Serial of

920
00:48:54,199 --> 00:49:03,000
Jerusalem cite dutero canonical books in his writings? Now it's

921
00:49:03,039 --> 00:49:06,840
if he is to whether Rock has been pretty good

922
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,400
about a lot of this and I'm having I'm only

923
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,039
doing this because I don't have my chefs out here.

924
00:49:12,079 --> 00:49:20,119
I apologize Cyril does cite them. Let's see kind of

925
00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:24,599
cut electures four thirty six. He cites Wisdom and Syric.

926
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 9: So let's see.

927
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 3: So no, he does have Barrack right, so that that

928
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,440
doesn't fit the Protestant canon. Well, but it's just one book.

929
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:53,000
Well no, wait a minute, I thought we believe in

930
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:57,800
solar scripturer. If you're a sol scripturer, you know, infallible

931
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,599
Word of God proponent, I'll only need one book to

932
00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:07,119
disqualify it, because if Barrack isn't inspired scripture in your

933
00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:10,599
Protestant view, and he's including it, that doesn't afford you

934
00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:14,119
any any help. Now, I don't know where Groc is

935
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:26,320
getting wisdom, though Rock says. I think Rock's wrong there.

936
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,840
I want these specific citations. Can anybody does anybody have

937
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,719
a specific I know he cites it, I know in

938
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,800
I'm like ninety percent sure that he cites it in

939
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:53,000
the Catechetical Lectures. So well, but it doesn't prove doctrine. Yeah,

940
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,880
but I mean, I don't understand how Cyril helps you

941
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,639
at all. He doesn't have the Book of Revelations, so

942
00:50:57,679 --> 00:51:23,239
what Oh he includes the dou econonical sections of Daniel too.

943
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:32,800
That's weird. Let's see, we need some way to search.

944
00:51:33,159 --> 00:51:35,280
I don't know does anybody in the chat have I

945
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,679
know that this exists. I just don't have in front

946
00:51:37,719 --> 00:52:01,480
of me anybody have a reference to that. No, I

947
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,559
mean it's you know, there's no question if you read

948
00:52:03,559 --> 00:52:05,840
the Catechetical Lectures that I've read them all, like, there's

949
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,400
no question that. I mean, it's theology is not remotely Protestant.

950
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:15,159
Everything in that is one percent orthodox theology. But again

951
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,559
it's it's not the Protestant canon. So I don't understand. Well,

952
00:52:18,599 --> 00:52:20,960
but it's closer. Well, so now you're moving the goalpost.

953
00:52:21,119 --> 00:52:23,199
I thought you're a you're trying to prove the Protestant

954
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:25,639
canon or just something close to it. And how do

955
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,960
we know that closer makes it right? Like if it's wrong,

956
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,199
it's wrong. So anyway we can we can put underneath

957
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:37,480
the comments. Later on, I'll look and find Cyril Jerusalem

958
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,760
referencing deerconical text in the catechetical lectures. I know he does.

959
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:46,320
I know he does. I'm like ninety percent sure, go ahead, Hey.

960
00:52:46,199 --> 00:52:47,599
Speaker 2: Jay, thanks for bringing me on.

961
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 15: So if the church fathers had debates on scripture, how

962
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,159
do we know what is the correct interpretation for like

963
00:53:00,199 --> 00:53:05,400
all these different passages that even Protestants debat up amost themselves.

964
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 3: Well, it's like Saint Vincent of Lorenz says that in

965
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:15,000
his commandatory he talks about we believe what is believed

966
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,480
by everyone at all places, at all times. So that's

967
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:23,679
what universal means in the Orthodox sense, and that's a

968
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,679
helpful guide, but it doesn't tell us a lot of specifics.

969
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,719
So there will be debate over various Bible verses, there

970
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,880
will be disagreements, but there's not going to be disagreements

971
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,639
or debate when the Church formulates and settles big issues.

972
00:53:39,199 --> 00:53:42,800
So nicea happens. Right, there's a lot of debate about

973
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,039
Jesus's status that settles that issue, okay, and that becomes

974
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:51,760
the codified belief for everybody. So ecumitical councils are the

975
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,079
highest level of authority, and the Church Fathers help us.

976
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:59,360
They have you know, countless commentaries, countless discussions, but you

977
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,000
will find place is where church fathers disagree with one

978
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,400
another on a specific passage. And so again, no church

979
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,480
fathers infallible. No church father has it all right and

980
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,159
it all figured out. The more you read the Church fathers,

981
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:14,440
and I've been reading them for twenty five years, the

982
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,159
more you will see I'm not trying to degrade them,

983
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:20,079
but they were fallible men, even if they're saints, even

984
00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:25,039
if they're great theologians. To treat them in some sort

985
00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:29,159
of like unrealistic way, I think damages our positioned. And

986
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:32,079
there's some Orthodox people who do this where they act like, oh,

987
00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:35,000
the Church Fathers and saints never disagreed, and so if

988
00:54:35,039 --> 00:54:37,920
there's a parent contradiction, it's not real. I can look

989
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,159
at their list of canons right here and tell that, well,

990
00:54:40,159 --> 00:54:42,599
they have different canons, so they can't all be right.

991
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:48,760
So again it's like expecting having unrealistic expectations like as

992
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,320
if and a lot of times when Protestants convert to

993
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,840
Rome or to Orthodoxy, they have the same mindset where

994
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,559
they expect that, Oh, I'm going to just quote mind

995
00:54:56,559 --> 00:54:58,000
the church fathers and they're never going to have any

996
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:00,280
disagreements because they all teach the same thing. No, they don't.

997
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:01,159
Speaker 8: Uh.

998
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,599
Speaker 3: And after you spend you know, a few decades in

999
00:55:03,679 --> 00:55:06,159
these things, you're gonna notice that they don't always agree.

1000
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,000
And there's no easy answer to you know, well, how

1001
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,960
do we know what the right interpretation over verses? You

1002
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:15,119
got to be patient, You got to ask God to

1003
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:16,760
guide you at the end of the day. That's the

1004
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,320
only way to know. Ben Ella, what's up?

1005
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: Man?

1006
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:26,199
Speaker 3: Last one before we close it out tonight, all the

1007
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,119
oh five bucks snate Candling church is Kennon church Father

1008
00:55:30,639 --> 00:55:34,280
Drake malfoy said, so well, might as well follow him

1009
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,559
as well as anybody else. Theology Explorer two dollars. Don't

1010
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:42,960
forget about James Thora's dead. Bring out wisdom to it

1011
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,239
always shuts down Protestant arguments. Well, I mean, they're just

1012
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,079
gonna say so what so it's similar to what Paul wrote,

1013
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,239
or it's a prophetive Christ. So Wisdom one and two

1014
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,239
and other chapters of wisdom are like perfectly parallel to

1015
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,920
Romans prophetive Christ. They don't care if there's a they'll say, well,

1016
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,599
there might be pagan prophecies that I mean, it's part

1017
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:05,159
of scripture. Mark Kamowski five dollars. The point is that

1018
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:10,480
Protestants don't have any coherent criteria as to how and

1019
00:56:10,519 --> 00:56:15,400
why and what scripture is. It's all just arbitrary, all conflicting,

1020
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,679
and it's just like, well, follow me, I'm the one right,

1021
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:22,159
Frankish Malcaifi bucks something angered me as a Catholic that

1022
00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:25,880
was a manatory observance of Guadalupe. I'm not Mexican. Catholicism

1023
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,079
is super ethnocentric. Obviously, that guy was just being totally

1024
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,079
bad faith for not admitting or acting like he didn't

1025
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:33,119
know what I was asking. Wallhim single five dollars. If

1026
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:36,039
I can very orthodoxy, can I celebrate Protestant Valentine with

1027
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:40,400
my family? I think your priests would probably give you

1028
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,880
a blessing for that, not but you had to ask him,

1029
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,880
not ten dollars. You felt like I was being passive

1030
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,440
aggressive and jabbing at you. No, you were obviously asking

1031
00:56:51,559 --> 00:56:57,599
questions and sending jabs that you knew would be annoying,

1032
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,480
and then you're playing a victim. When I tell you

1033
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:03,519
to stop doing it, you get so pissy because of

1034
00:57:03,559 --> 00:57:06,280
interactions that were in the past. Yes, because you're bringing

1035
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,519
the same dumb arguments as last time. Don't be a

1036
00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:13,599
bitch and unblock me. You got me all wrong. We're good, man,

1037
00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:15,679
You go your way, you go do your thing. I'm good.

1038
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:19,360
W a n ghaf ten dollars. Is itreticably the New

1039
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,360
Covenant applied since the beginning of creation? No, the New

1040
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,639
Covenant is Christ's covenant and it was always operative. Jesus

1041
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:29,719
always existed the trinities in the Old Testament. No that

1042
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,000
I mean Abraham had faith in the Trinity. Abraham was

1043
00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:35,679
saved by Jesus. Van five dollars. Roman Catholics. This is

1044
00:57:35,719 --> 00:57:38,840
the Roman Catholics, finest ladies and gentlemen. No argument, just

1045
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,960
passive aggressive, playing victim. He calls Jay a little bitch,

1046
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,119
but he's projecting pathetic. This is what they always do.

1047
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,800
They wonder why I get heated with them, because it's

1048
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:50,880
because the way you're acting. Man, you can't just come

1049
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,000
on here and say what your point is and say, look,

1050
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,000
I think the ep is an inconsistent position. It's not apostolic.

1051
00:57:57,039 --> 00:57:59,440
Why you just say that and said all this tone policing,

1052
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,239
acting like a woman osmotic? Ten dollars. Should I stay

1053
00:58:02,239 --> 00:58:04,960
away from the Greek Orthodox Church because of a Pita foos?

1054
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,880
I would be weary of being underneath him? But you

1055
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,639
can check out the local priests. Drago passport two dollars.

1056
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:16,800
Get this line ball out? They got here, Martyr Steven

1057
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,119
hundred se k unrelated question, what's your favorite theology book?

1058
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:25,280
I don't know. I honestly don't have one that favorite man.

1059
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,199
Have you heard of the book Rediscovering Orthodoxy in the

1060
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:33,079
Middle of Heretics and Acumenists by doctor Stamatis? I have not,

1061
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,119
but thank you for the recommendation. Paul five dollars. Do

1062
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:38,599
you have issues with the oc Are there issues with OCA?

1063
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:39,679
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1064
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:42,719
Speaker 3: You can look back at my channel for previous OCIA discussions.

1065
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:49,840
Jordan two dollars. You missed my last chat, Habibi. I

1066
00:58:49,880 --> 00:59:01,079
thought i'd read dr chat after Lord Voldemort. Is there

1067
00:59:01,079 --> 00:59:04,159
any possibility that you work with an Orthodox media network?

1068
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:09,519
I don't think so. I mean, I'm not technically not

1069
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:16,679
doing Fourth Hour, so now I'm happy doing what I

1070
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,880
do and working for myself. I don't want to have

1071
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,960
a boss, and I enjoy writing for Sam Hyde, so

1072
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:27,519
I'm doing everything I want to do. We got that,

1073
00:59:27,679 --> 00:59:34,679
We got that. Hello, Jay, the Mormon talk had me debt,

1074
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,639
dying and laughter. How do they accept Justice Smith inserting

1075
00:59:38,679 --> 00:59:41,559
himself into the Bible. It turns out they actually believe

1076
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:45,719
that a prophet can correct and write himself into text.

1077
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,800
I mean, I kid you not, And they don't see

1078
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,000
what that's a problem. Cole Marshall, we read that when

1079
00:59:51,079 --> 01:00:01,719
Serbia fifteen dollars take you so much? Steve Grady twenty dollars. Oh,

1080
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,920
we did that and be shocked three dollars. Is it

1081
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,440
better to go to a Randy Balls church in the

1082
01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:09,880
South or to not go at all? No, it's better

1083
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,400
to not go. The nearest Orthodock church is an hour

1084
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:18,159
and a half. Well, that's actually not that bad. So no,

1085
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:20,519
you can't go to Baptist Church of God churches. That

1086
01:00:20,559 --> 01:00:23,760
stuff's crazy. You got to just make some time and

1087
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,800
drive the worth our church when you can't haul in

1088
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,079
the goods five bucks. Did you see the conversation between

1089
01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:32,239
Jenco and Voice of Reason. No, man, I don't watch

1090
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,719
any of these people you think I watched Voice of Reasons.

1091
01:00:35,679 --> 01:00:38,079
I don't watch these people. It was a bad look

1092
01:00:38,119 --> 01:00:41,480
for the Catholics. Maybe you should go on their podcasts. Man,

1093
01:00:41,519 --> 01:00:43,239
these people don't want me on their podcasts. What are

1094
01:00:43,239 --> 01:00:43,760
you talking about?

1095
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 2: Uh?

1096
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,199
Speaker 3: Grace and five dollars. I just started reading anti Nicee

1097
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:55,559
Church fathers. From my understanding, Clement's Epistles of Corinthians is

1098
01:00:55,599 --> 01:00:59,800
the same Clement Paul mentions and Philippians. What's the consensus.

1099
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,039
I mean that's a traditional view. I don't know that

1100
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:04,639
there is a consensus. What is the evidence that it's not.

1101
01:01:05,519 --> 01:01:08,400
I'm not a textual scholar, so I would defer to

1102
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:13,519
the church's tradition that it is O'Brien's kayak. Five dollars.

1103
01:01:13,559 --> 01:01:15,360
Every time I protest of debates, I swear it always

1104
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,400
devolves into them tone policing because their theology is feels based.

1105
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:19,519
Speaker 5: No.

1106
01:01:19,639 --> 01:01:22,679
Speaker 3: Absolutely, when they start feeling bad, they blame you and

1107
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,760
try to play victim. And that's because Protestism is very

1108
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,360
much based on feelings. Absolutely, Arisola, five dollars. Thank you

1109
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,440
all your content. You're the goat. God bless us start

1110
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:40,000
Hollywood looking forward to two and three. Thank you Glitchy

1111
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:42,880
rhythm two dollars. He said, don't be a bitch, unblock me.

1112
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:48,000
Good try bro no face kill at ten dollars. I've

1113
01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:51,559
been reading thinking Orthodox. I don't know. I haven't read

1114
01:01:51,599 --> 01:01:54,119
that the author made the claim that the church didn't

1115
01:01:54,159 --> 01:02:01,800
make the claim Marios without sin. Well, he's talking about

1116
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,719
immaculate conception. So Mary is the Spotles virgin in that

1117
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,400
she didn't commit actual sin. I haven't read the books.

1118
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,960
I'm trying to give him the best charitable interpretation that

1119
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:16,360
I would assume. He means actual sin is different from

1120
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,519
original sin. Rom mccallach's believe that Mary has immaculate conception

1121
01:02:19,679 --> 01:02:22,840
and she's exempted from original sin. Orthodox believe she had

1122
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,079
the effects of original sin, but she did not commit

1123
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:32,239
an actual sin. Alula five dollars. Thank you, Jay, Thank

1124
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,239
you so much. Thomas B. Two dollars. Read my earlier

1125
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,679
super chat. I'm trying, man, there's a whole bunch here

1126
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:41,519
that if you barely scroll at rolls past a bunch

1127
01:02:41,519 --> 01:02:49,760
of them. Let's see your previous super chat. Well, I

1128
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:51,960
was going to try to get out of here. Here

1129
01:02:52,039 --> 01:02:54,320
we go, Thomas B. Five dollars. How our bishops that

1130
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,480
allow contraception or chrismate those who aren't fully triple immersed

1131
01:02:57,519 --> 01:03:01,199
to be viewed. I mean, we're not rigorous, so like

1132
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:07,519
you can't control how they do the baptism properly, and

1133
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,280
contraception is not promoted by the Orthodox Church. But there

1134
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:17,280
might be situations where there are people who are allowed

1135
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:22,159
in some cases that because of economia. Roman Catholics don't

1136
01:03:22,239 --> 01:03:25,079
understand the principle of economia except when it's the pope

1137
01:03:25,119 --> 01:03:27,559
doing whatever he wants. By the way, suddenly Roman Catholics

1138
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:30,559
are all about economia, and pope can do whatever he wants.

1139
01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:35,239
But when we extend economia to individual churches, they lose

1140
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,480
their mind and they think that they've got us. Anyway,

1141
01:03:42,039 --> 01:03:48,119
but the Orthodox Church might permit things in certain situations.

1142
01:03:48,199 --> 01:03:52,400
There's a great doctor Bradshaw essay on this on natural law,

1143
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,599
and it's a critique of the Thomas position. And for example,

1144
01:03:56,639 --> 01:04:00,880
the Thomas position argues that you can never feel fear

1145
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:07,960
with the tilos, the biological tilos of the Organs. And

1146
01:04:08,119 --> 01:04:12,159
so if the any frustration of the Organs is a

1147
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:17,159
worse sin than frustrating the Organs, I'm not kidding. So

1148
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,880
this gets so silly that a Roman Catholic would has

1149
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,760
to say, if they're trad I kid you not. This

1150
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,880
is doctor Bradshaw's a great critique of this that let's

1151
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:34,559
say you had a blockage in your male area of

1152
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,920
this of semen retention, which it can actually happen, people

1153
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,920
can get a blockage there. The Roman Catholic would say

1154
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:48,440
that you cannot, through quote unnatural means, to take care

1155
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,360
of that in any way, or the hospital can't take

1156
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,559
care of that in any way, because that would be

1157
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,280
a deviation from the natural function, and you have automatically

1158
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:05,320
committed a mortal sin because you're going against biological Aristotelian

1159
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,639
Tilos Tellos for that body organ. This is what led

1160
01:05:10,679 --> 01:05:14,960
to Quinas. Could you not I'm going from memory. I

1161
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:16,280
haven't looked at this a long time, and I'm pretty

1162
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,599
I'm appy sure this is in the argument in the essay.

1163
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:30,079
But Aquinas thought that if you spanked it, okay, that's worse.

1164
01:05:31,599 --> 01:05:36,119
Could you not hear me out? That's worse than sleeping

1165
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:42,239
with your mom or your sister, because spanking it is

1166
01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:47,800
more of a deviation from the natural law function of

1167
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:53,519
the organ than to be with your mom. And you

1168
01:05:53,679 --> 01:05:59,760
wonder why Thomas act like Internet retorts that's what they

1169
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:03,960
And by the way, these are the same hypocrites that says,

1170
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:08,920
let's say that a quietus, for example, every city should

1171
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,079
have a whorehouse because if you don't, the then adult

1172
01:06:12,119 --> 01:06:14,679
true will run ramd. But I'm not kidding. They actually

1173
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:20,199
reason that it's less it's better for the common good

1174
01:06:20,679 --> 01:06:22,760
for this city to have a whorehouse than to not.

1175
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:25,280
I kid you not. There's this whole look up and

1176
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,599
the Roman Catholics are a thousand pages coping to make

1177
01:06:28,639 --> 01:06:31,880
sense of this because they're devoted to systems right that

1178
01:06:32,119 --> 01:06:35,400
they have an in a lack of flexibility when it

1179
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,840
comes to their moral systems. And you've got these idiot,

1180
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:44,400
teenager people on the Internet who think that they're masters

1181
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,440
of all this stuff. And they could just go read

1182
01:06:47,519 --> 01:06:50,239
Bradshaw's essay. You got to read this if you want

1183
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:51,920
the full thing. I'm gonna tell you it's Ryre. It's

1184
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:58,880
Bradshaw Natural Law. I cannot remember the exact name of

1185
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:00,679
the paper. I was there when he is into the paper.

1186
01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:02,760
By the way, I was like, whoa, this is crazy,

1187
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:33,239
mind blowing. That's not doctor David Radshaw Man. I hope

1188
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,559
that's not the paper that's I think UBI has an

1189
01:07:35,639 --> 01:07:37,639
interview with him on this topic, though, so we might

1190
01:07:37,719 --> 01:07:44,880
could find that. But you gotta see this because this

1191
01:07:45,039 --> 01:07:48,480
is pretty devastating to the Thomas and the Riscitilians, if

1192
01:07:48,519 --> 01:07:51,639
you can get them to I think it comes up

1193
01:07:51,679 --> 01:07:57,960
in this UBI discussion here, but I'm trying to find

1194
01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:59,519
his exact paper on it.

1195
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 5: This is it.

1196
01:08:02,119 --> 01:08:04,159
Speaker 3: It's called what does it mean to be contrary to Nature?

1197
01:08:04,239 --> 01:08:04,559
Speaker 5: This is it?

1198
01:08:07,079 --> 01:08:39,079
Speaker 3: It may not be available on academia. E du oh,

1199
01:08:39,239 --> 01:08:41,600
here we go. Maybe it is available.

1200
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:46,199
Speaker 2: No, that's.

1201
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:51,600
Speaker 3: It's not the full paper. I don't think. Here we

1202
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:59,079
go it is an academia. Look at that, but is

1203
01:08:59,159 --> 01:09:02,880
it the full paper? Let's see. Oh, it may not be.

1204
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:37,800
It is not the full paper. Dang it. That's I

1205
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,680
was afraid of. Yeah, it's only the first few opening

1206
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:47,520
pages on academica. Do you sang it? But I think

1207
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:53,600
in the interview with UBI and Lewis, I think he

1208
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:56,800
brings up these points. So probably the next best thing

1209
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:01,159
would be to watch this interview. I don't know if

1210
01:10:01,159 --> 01:10:05,840
he mentions Aquinas's contradictions, but so you get the like

1211
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:12,399
these Roman Catholics are like so sanctimonious about their moral positions,

1212
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,800
and they don't even realize like the stupid shit that

1213
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,720
Aquinas says about this stuff. It's just like you guys

1214
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:27,479
are out to lunch. Dude. I'm trying to put this

1215
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:41,359
in the chat for you guys. Internet sucks tonight. A

1216
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:46,840
same dog recipe is two dollars. Good stream. I learned

1217
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,239
something and had to laugh. Thanks man. Noadic requests two dollars.

1218
01:10:50,359 --> 01:10:55,119
Check out catechetical lecture nine, paragraph sixteen. Ooh, we got

1219
01:10:56,039 --> 01:11:02,520
Ortho bros. To the rescue dog. It's been some years

1220
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,800
since I watched this interview, but check it out if

1221
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,279
you're interested in what I was talking about earlier. I

1222
01:11:08,399 --> 01:11:10,319
got to x out some of these windows. There's too

1223
01:11:10,359 --> 01:11:13,800
many windows open, the computers all freezing up, burning up.

1224
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:49,239
Hot Okay, Uh, good grief, dude, h BROSI five dollars.

1225
01:11:50,039 --> 01:11:52,279
I guess Michael Knowles was staying true to his cult

1226
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,760
leader by being the lead defender of Nala.

1227
01:11:58,239 --> 01:11:58,399
Speaker 8: Uh.

1228
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 3: Also, I don't think Knowles is going to do the debate, so,

1229
01:12:03,239 --> 01:12:08,239
I mean, shocker. I didn't expect them to. But there's

1230
01:12:08,359 --> 01:12:24,000
that interview right there. I've got more super chets over here.

1231
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,840
I gotta read too, h Belooney Bong five dollars. Do

1232
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,279
you believe there's a hierarchy to sin? Well, I definitely

1233
01:12:30,319 --> 01:12:32,640
think there's sins that are worse than others. You know,

1234
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,560
if you read the Ezekiel. You know, if you read Ezekiel,

1235
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,520
he says, and come, son of Man, I will show

1236
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,640
you even greater abominations. And he says, I will show

1237
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,960
you even greater abominations. So there's greater and greater abominations

1238
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:44,520
than evils.

1239
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 5: Right.

1240
01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 3: You know Jesus talks about in that way as well.

1241
01:12:49,399 --> 01:12:53,039
But I don't believe it's like this, like scientifically rigid

1242
01:12:53,119 --> 01:13:04,279
list like Roman Catholics will spit out. I'm trying to

1243
01:13:04,279 --> 01:13:06,079
make sure I didn't miss all these people get really

1244
01:13:06,119 --> 01:13:08,279
mad if I missed their super jet. So I'm trying

1245
01:13:08,319 --> 01:13:11,439
to make sure I hit all these Mark Kumowski five dollars.

1246
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:12,800
Thank you. I can't worry for hit him or not.

1247
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:17,560
DC woodwork. He became a member my family and I

1248
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,399
received in the church tomorrow. Hey, what's up, dog? Glad

1249
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:26,079
to hear that man. He says, thank you for the

1250
01:13:26,119 --> 01:13:27,800
work that you do. Glory to God, Thank you man,

1251
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:34,399
appreciate your support. What was I doing? I already forgot

1252
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:40,319
what I was looking at. Oh, Catechetical Lecture nine sixteen.

1253
01:13:40,439 --> 01:14:00,159
Let's check that out. Well, he had some feisty i's

1254
01:14:00,239 --> 01:14:01,159
the individuals tonight.

1255
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:03,319
Speaker 6: There you go.

1256
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 3: Nine sixteen is what it was. Aha, I knew it. See,

1257
01:14:15,079 --> 01:14:17,560
I told you he would quote the Dudo economical text

1258
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:24,479
Catechetical Lecture nine sixteen. He says, he cites Wisdom. See you, guys,

1259
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:28,640
I told you. This is Thank God I've got this

1260
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:31,920
is me remembering reading this twenty years ago. Okay, I

1261
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,760
read this twenty years ago. I told you he cites

1262
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:41,840
the duder chrononical texts within the catechetical lectures. Now again,

1263
01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:48,479
if you call it secondary canon, as we do even

1264
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,079
an Orthodox, that doesn't mean it's not inspired or not

1265
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:57,399
part of the canon. It's still just secondary canon, and

1266
01:14:57,479 --> 01:14:59,560
we don't have a problem with that. But none of

1267
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:04,880
that Protestantism's canon, nor the principle by which any Protestant

1268
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:09,880
would epistemically justify their canon, you see, And in fact,

1269
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,560
this just shows shows he's citing it to prove his doctrines.

1270
01:15:22,319 --> 01:15:26,079
He cites Wisdom thirteen to five right there. Thank you.

1271
01:15:26,199 --> 01:15:28,680
By the way, I knew that it was there. So

1272
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:35,359
thank you for finding that noetic quest much appreciated. Bologneybond

1273
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:37,840
five dollars one more just to say I found you

1274
01:15:38,039 --> 01:15:41,199
through an old Sam Hid interview right as I was

1275
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:48,239
acquiring about Orthodoxy. Well we've only done one, Like what

1276
01:15:48,399 --> 01:15:50,439
a year ago? Is that what you're calling old? Or

1277
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,039
you mean like he oh, you mean the old and

1278
01:15:53,079 --> 01:15:55,359
when I interviewed him like three year or four years ago? Okay,

1279
01:15:55,520 --> 01:16:00,960
that's probably what you mean. Yeah, I appreciate that. Uh,

1280
01:16:02,119 --> 01:16:07,560
I don't know why the internet's being so crappy or not? Ben,

1281
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:08,199
what's up on you?

1282
01:16:13,239 --> 01:16:13,399
Speaker 11: Yo?

1283
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 6: What up?

1284
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 3: How are you doing? I'm good?

1285
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:16,159
Speaker 5: Are you.

1286
01:16:18,079 --> 01:16:19,399
Speaker 7: So I can ask a quick question.

1287
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:20,560
Speaker 8: I'm from the UK.

1288
01:16:21,159 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 2: I think I've asked this before. I'm not sure if

1289
01:16:23,039 --> 01:16:25,039
it was to you or someone similar.

1290
01:16:25,159 --> 01:16:29,159
Speaker 5: But I'm not really religious, and I'm a boxer and

1291
01:16:29,279 --> 01:16:32,920
I grew up in a kind of masculine working class

1292
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,760
culture and I want to I really like to get

1293
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,119
into religion someday, but the religions around me are just

1294
01:16:40,199 --> 01:16:43,319
so fucking gay. It's it's all about love and peace

1295
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,479
and submission.

1296
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:49,159
Speaker 2: And you know, if somebody slash you return the other

1297
01:16:49,279 --> 01:16:49,680
cheek and.

1298
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:53,319
Speaker 5: Them shall inherit the earth, So would you recommend or adoptsy?

1299
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,319
Speaker 2: And if so, is it is it the least gay?

1300
01:16:56,399 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 5: As I've heard and as I understand it, at least.

1301
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:02,520
Speaker 3: It is it is the least gay, it's the most masculine.

1302
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:07,239
But I can't guarantee that you won't encounter uh, you know,

1303
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:14,479
skittles weirdos there as well. So that's everywhere. But I've

1304
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:20,640
found the best hetero cool dudes in the word ox

1305
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,600
Church by far. And I was in the Roman Catholic world,

1306
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,079
I was in the Evangelical world. Those are the worst.

1307
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,159
But definitely Orthodoxy is the best. But that doesn't mean

1308
01:17:32,159 --> 01:17:34,640
you're not going to encounter you know, issues there as well.

1309
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:39,920
So last one anti heresy. I'm kind of winding down,

1310
01:17:40,079 --> 01:17:42,039
so and I don't want to lose my patients. I

1311
01:17:42,079 --> 01:17:48,560
feel like if I get I was really biting my

1312
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:50,840
tongue with that Catholic dude and the Protestant dude like

1313
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:52,399
I was, I would start to I was about to

1314
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,960
like I was about to go a little too far.

1315
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:59,520
So it's better to end the discussions before I start

1316
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:03,760
like losing it and making fun of them, and you know,

1317
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:05,319
it's just going to go too far. Go ahead, man,

1318
01:18:05,319 --> 01:18:11,479
what's up on you? It was going on? Man, Yes, sir,

1319
01:18:13,359 --> 01:18:15,960
all right, I'm going to argue with you, brother, Oh

1320
01:18:18,039 --> 01:18:18,760
what's on your mind?

1321
01:18:20,039 --> 01:18:24,159
Speaker 16: I want to know what's your biggest issues with Catholicism

1322
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:29,520
excluding all the theology. The theology and doctrinal whatever errors

1323
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,840
that you claim they are. But well, it's your biggest

1324
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:34,920
concerns with the Catholicism.

1325
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,079
Speaker 3: I would say outside of that's actually I appreciate that

1326
01:18:37,199 --> 01:18:39,399
question because most of the time people ask the you know,

1327
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,359
theology questions, so I'm happy to address.

1328
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1329
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,600
Speaker 16: You got to remember, like majority of people don't understand

1330
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,520
or even they don't even have the ability to comprehend.

1331
01:18:48,119 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 8: Most of that stuff, so it's kind of like.

1332
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 3: For a particular group, that's true. I would say the

1333
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,439
main problems outside of the theology would be that I

1334
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:03,079
think the Vatican was pretty deeply corrupted a long time ago,

1335
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,720
but nowadays totally corrupted and pretty much an organ of

1336
01:19:07,039 --> 01:19:09,560
the globalists. So that's my big one.

1337
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 16: Okay, So pretty much you're you're saying that the Roman

1338
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:20,720
Catholic Church is engaging in the whole NW New World

1339
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:21,760
Order agenda.

1340
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're a part of it.

1341
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 8: Like one of the players in it.

1342
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:28,279
Speaker 3: Well, the Vatican, not the average Roman Catholic, but the

1343
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,279
institution of the Vatican at the top I think is

1344
01:19:31,359 --> 01:19:32,399
completely co opted.

1345
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 16: Yeah, okay, and I'm assuming your evidence for that would be, like,

1346
01:19:37,399 --> 01:19:39,199
would it be like just the CIA involvement.

1347
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:42,520
Speaker 3: I think that's one window into it, But no, that's

1348
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:44,439
not my only evidence. I think you can go to

1349
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:49,199
Roman Catholic writers who critique this point of corruption within

1350
01:19:49,279 --> 01:19:53,079
the Church. It's not just the CIA, it's British intelligence,

1351
01:19:53,239 --> 01:19:58,279
it's Israeli intelligence having relationships with the Vatican. It's a

1352
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:00,680
sexual compromise in regard to a lot of the p

1353
01:20:01,159 --> 01:20:07,199
PDF stuff, Vatican Bank operation Gladio. I think all of

1354
01:20:07,279 --> 01:20:10,359
those are windows into a lot of the corruption.

1355
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 16: And yeah, I'm assuming I thought the only reason you

1356
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:16,119
would have a problem with that is because of the

1357
01:20:16,159 --> 01:20:17,319
claim of infallibility.

1358
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 3: Well, it's not the only reason I was a problem with.

1359
01:20:22,119 --> 01:20:24,680
The problem I would say is that the Roman Catholic

1360
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:29,800
Church around the eleventh century started to explicitly say that

1361
01:20:30,199 --> 01:20:35,279
it was a state world power. Prior to that, most

1362
01:20:35,319 --> 01:20:38,000
of the churches in the East and the West didn't

1363
01:20:38,039 --> 01:20:42,359
see the Church as a global state power. But the

1364
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,800
papacy for various reasons, not all of which were bad,

1365
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:49,640
but for many reasons, began to step into the vacuum

1366
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:53,600
of a collapsed Western Empire and took on more and

1367
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,199
more worldly power. And so that made the Vatican into

1368
01:20:57,319 --> 01:20:59,680
a very worldly geopolitical power.

1369
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,159
Speaker 16: And you probably credit most of that to like in

1370
01:21:03,239 --> 01:21:05,840
the modern area, speaking of you probably credit most of

1371
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:09,279
that government influence our CIA influence.

1372
01:21:10,199 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 3: In the modern area, yes, But in the Middle Ages,

1373
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:18,920
I think there were confluences of interest German uh. The

1374
01:21:19,039 --> 01:21:24,199
popes for all the eleventh century were appointed by German kings,

1375
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,159
and so they had their own issue of Cicero papism.

1376
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:32,760
I think that wealthy Franks then and Medici's used the

1377
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:35,800
papacy for their own designs. So that's going on for

1378
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:37,960
a long time, and I'm not I'm not denying that.

1379
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,119
You know, there have been corrupt Orthodox bishops and patriarchs too,

1380
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,000
but the Orthodox Church doesn't make the claims that Vatican

1381
01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:49,079
one makes, And if the Vatican one's true, then I'm

1382
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:52,439
going to have to believe like that when the CIA

1383
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:54,800
was helping to get Paul the sixth elected, it was

1384
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:57,159
really the Holy Spirit using the CIA to get. I mean,

1385
01:21:57,159 --> 01:21:59,640
it's just crazy to me to go down that route.

1386
01:22:01,319 --> 01:22:01,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1387
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,520
Speaker 16: Yeah, I mean with the CIA helping to get elected,

1388
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,560
were they just like given like who they would prefer

1389
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:08,399
or were.

1390
01:22:08,239 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 8: They demand him?

1391
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 16: Because I've seen the documents on it and it said

1392
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:13,279
that they kind of asked who they would want, but

1393
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:15,760
in the end it was decided by the cardinals made

1394
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:16,680
the ultimate decision.

1395
01:22:18,119 --> 01:22:20,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard to say exactly how that went down.

1396
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:23,680
I think that if you read the Paul Williams.

1397
01:22:23,399 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 8: Book, I put like a gun to their head and

1398
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:27,159
was like this guy pull now.

1399
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 3: Now. According to Paul Williams, uh Gladio and the operators

1400
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:38,680
in Gladia were able to probably sexually compromise cardinals and

1401
01:22:39,239 --> 01:22:40,720
that was It's true.

1402
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:42,560
Speaker 8: It is true, though you know it's true.

1403
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,199
Speaker 16: But my whole thing is I believe the infallibility it

1404
01:22:46,279 --> 01:22:48,079
can't pertain to the individual themselves.

1405
01:22:48,079 --> 01:22:50,399
Speaker 8: It has to be to the title, the title.

1406
01:22:50,159 --> 01:22:52,560
Speaker 16: Of pope, you know, because there's no no I mean,

1407
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:53,920
I don't know what's.

1408
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:57,119
Speaker 3: Your perspective, but you can't. You can't divorce the person

1409
01:22:57,159 --> 01:23:00,319
who holds the office from the powers that he's supposed

1410
01:23:00,319 --> 01:23:02,039
to have. And one of those powers is supposed to

1411
01:23:02,079 --> 01:23:04,520
be the ability to speak ex cathedral.

1412
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 2: So.

1413
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:11,079
Speaker 16: Logic like like a police officer does something bad, so

1414
01:23:11,279 --> 01:23:13,920
the whole police force, or like if the poll does

1415
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:14,479
something bad.

1416
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,520
Speaker 3: You know, no, no, no, no, that's a false analogy

1417
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,279
because it's not a question of him doing a moral evil.

1418
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:25,399
It's a question of infallible teaching. No, it's it's that

1419
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:29,279
he can't teach wrong or like contradict Catholic teaching.

1420
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:33,039
Speaker 2: So not a question of yeah, yeah, yeah, and then

1421
01:23:33,239 --> 01:23:33,920
and what's what's what?

1422
01:23:34,039 --> 01:23:34,600
Speaker 11: What would you say?

1423
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:38,319
Speaker 16: Stands out the most like the most obvious, like theoretical

1424
01:23:38,399 --> 01:23:39,399
teaching that's.

1425
01:23:39,279 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 17: Been put out.

1426
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:45,600
Speaker 3: I usually give three examples. First example is if you

1427
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,840
look at dictatus Pope, and if you look at and

1428
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:50,920
these are easy to find, and then you look at

1429
01:23:51,279 --> 01:23:54,640
when them sunk them those are not very long. Documents

1430
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:57,520
are pretty short. One from eleventh century, one from the

1431
01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:00,479
fourteenth century. They both say that you have to believe

1432
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:04,279
that the pope is also a world power to be saved.

1433
01:24:04,359 --> 01:24:06,720
So if you don't believe that he has spiritual and

1434
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,359
temporal power, namely that he's a world ruler, you can't

1435
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,800
be saved. Post Vatican Two, the Romancalliy Church no longer

1436
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:18,800
teaches that. That's one contradiction. Number two. Francis has said

1437
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,239
many times over that the death penalty is.

1438
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 16: The first, the first one you brought up with, having

1439
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,279
to believe that pope is a state power or what.

1440
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:30,680
Speaker 8: Say, yeah, a state power.

1441
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're a world ruler ultimately basically king of kings.

1442
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 8: Okay, and you think that that would be a heretical claim.

1443
01:24:40,079 --> 01:24:42,119
Speaker 3: No, no, I'm pointing out contradict. Well, yeah I would,

1444
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:46,079
but I'm saying like that contradicts the post Vatican two papacy,

1445
01:24:46,359 --> 01:24:49,359
which no longer wears the triple crown. If you remember,

1446
01:24:49,359 --> 01:24:51,399
the pope used to wear a triple crown that signified

1447
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:57,279
that triple authority. They don't wear that anymore because post

1448
01:24:57,359 --> 01:25:00,800
Vatican two, they don't teach the temp moral supremacy the

1449
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,600
Roman bishop anymore. So that to me is the contradiction.

1450
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 5: Two.

1451
01:25:05,359 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 3: Uh, Francis has said the death penalty is contrary to

1452
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:14,479
the Gospel. But prior to Vatican two, Uh, the every

1453
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:17,119
cality church every day they tall the death penalty, So

1454
01:25:18,199 --> 01:25:19,520
that to me is contradiction. Three.

1455
01:25:21,399 --> 01:25:25,239
Speaker 16: Yeah, Vatican two is is pretty much like what he

1456
01:25:25,319 --> 01:25:26,920
was talking about the Muslims and whatnot.

1457
01:25:27,359 --> 01:25:29,479
Speaker 3: That was my third one, right, So nosro tat in

1458
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:32,880
Letmagentium sixteen say that Muslims and Christians worship the same

1459
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:35,359
god uh and that, and then you can you can

1460
01:25:35,399 --> 01:25:37,800
also see places where they talk like Jews still have

1461
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,000
the same covenant and force.

1462
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:42,199
Speaker 8: It's something that.

1463
01:25:42,199 --> 01:25:43,399
Speaker 11: I've been actually thinking about.

1464
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 3: I mean, there's more, but those are my three.

1465
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:51,279
Speaker 16: I'm sure you yourself can attest to this, like the

1466
01:25:51,359 --> 01:25:54,840
frustration that comes with debating, like they say muslim is

1467
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:57,800
Protestants or just like any like the frustration that she

1468
01:25:57,880 --> 01:25:59,199
had caught her with, like how people.

1469
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:00,199
Speaker 8: Are unable to underst.

1470
01:26:00,119 --> 01:26:03,640
Speaker 16: That and comprehend and this is like literally just scratching it.

1471
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,159
Speaker 8: Like probably what is wrong with these people?

1472
01:26:05,279 --> 01:26:06,920
Speaker 2: Like why why is the world this weeking?

1473
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:07,119
Speaker 11: Why?

1474
01:26:07,359 --> 01:26:09,399
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people don't want to Yeah, I mean, yeah,

1475
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:11,640
you're right, and I appreciate your call. A lot of

1476
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,920
people don't want to look at the documents. They don't care.

1477
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:17,000
People don't even read books anymore. So if you read books,

1478
01:26:17,039 --> 01:26:34,920
you're kind of like, you know, already a weirdo brando. Yeah,

1479
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,560
what's on your mind?

1480
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:37,600
Speaker 2: Hey?

1481
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:38,600
Speaker 8: Question for you.

1482
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,600
Speaker 17: I've been dipping into your like live streams and following

1483
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:49,079
your your tweets about Christianity, Bible stuff. I got turned

1484
01:26:49,119 --> 01:26:51,720
on to you through Info Wars doing your Fourth Hour

1485
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:56,680
on Fridays. Love all your your subjects matter and deep dives.

1486
01:26:58,279 --> 01:27:01,479
I was a Christian, well, I am a Christian.

1487
01:27:01,239 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 2: I think, but I was raised in a Baptist church.

1488
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:13,520
Speaker 17: I backslid and started buying the whole alien nonsense with

1489
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,600
you know, some other being out there other than God

1490
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:22,840
had a child. My view on that has changed a lot.

1491
01:27:23,039 --> 01:27:25,479
I've seen a lot. I'm forty five, I've seen a

1492
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:28,560
lot happen. I see the nature of good and evil

1493
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,520
in the world, and there's no doubt in my mind

1494
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:32,439
that there is.

1495
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:35,000
Speaker 2: Evil and good.

1496
01:27:35,119 --> 01:27:40,560
Speaker 17: But I've been watching like the that that show The

1497
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:45,239
Chosen with my family, and it really like tugged on me,

1498
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,880
like like I need to like really get involved and

1499
01:27:49,399 --> 01:27:53,279
and read more and research more, and I want to

1500
01:27:53,359 --> 01:27:54,079
read the Bible.

1501
01:27:54,239 --> 01:27:57,239
Speaker 8: I just want to know it based on your recommendations.

1502
01:27:57,279 --> 01:27:59,000
I've heard you say it because like I said, I

1503
01:27:59,119 --> 01:28:01,159
dip in what Bible should I.

1504
01:28:01,319 --> 01:28:04,760
Speaker 17: Like buy to like study, Like there's different ones.

1505
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 3: Get an Orthodox, get the Orthodox study Bible, the one

1506
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:10,960
that I'm showing right here, so I think it's still

1507
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,760
available on I think you can still get it online.

1508
01:28:15,039 --> 01:28:21,119
But thanks for your call, Austin, and don't go to

1509
01:28:21,199 --> 01:28:25,640
Protestant church, go to Orthodoxers. Mason McGahee one dollar, Thank

1510
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:28,560
you so much. Santos Jimenez twenty bucks. I know the

1511
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:30,920
Bible wasn't put together by God, but I'm struggling to

1512
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:36,000
understand how to interpret anything outside the Bible. Obviously, Peter

1513
01:28:36,039 --> 01:28:40,039
and Paul taught people that went on to write letters.

1514
01:28:40,279 --> 01:28:43,039
Do we take those as an authority? Do you mean

1515
01:28:43,159 --> 01:28:46,760
like the post Apostolic fathers like Ignacious and Clement, they

1516
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:51,960
are authorities, but they're not equal to the Bible, right,

1517
01:28:52,159 --> 01:28:54,840
So you know, if you read Ambrose or Ignacious or

1518
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,399
Clement of Alexander, I mean Clement to Roma should say

1519
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:03,840
they are going to be helpful, and they show the

1520
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:08,119
unanimity and the continuance of the Orthodox faith in those centuries,

1521
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:11,800
but they're not identical to the authority of you know,

1522
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:14,880
Peter and Paul. I believe the Apostles have a clear

1523
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:19,319
authority that is not continued on in the sense of

1524
01:29:19,399 --> 01:29:22,279
like new divine revelations. So once John dies, there's no

1525
01:29:22,399 --> 01:29:25,640
more public divine revelations. There can be gifts and miracles

1526
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:29,279
and clairvoyants, but that's not the same thing as public

1527
01:29:29,359 --> 01:29:32,800
divine revelation. There's never going to be like, oh, you know,

1528
01:29:33,239 --> 01:29:37,720
Saint so and so has a new Bible chapter that's

1529
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:39,840
going to be added to the Book of Revelation. Like

1530
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:45,880
that's not going to happen. Everything that councils are commenting

1531
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:51,359
on is commenting on the faith once for all delivered

1532
01:29:51,359 --> 01:29:53,199
to the saints. If it's once for all delivered as

1533
01:29:53,239 --> 01:29:58,239
you three says, it's not evolving. There's not new charismatic

1534
01:29:58,319 --> 01:30:01,319
cults coming up with new revelations. That's cut out immediately.

1535
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:06,920
No Mormon, no Joseph Smith, no Muhammad. It's all immediately

1536
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:13,079
cut away. Hcim lvl Fishing became a member. What's up?

1537
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,359
And why would we not want the obviously easy position

1538
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,359
of that cuts away all these goofball cults. Like if

1539
01:30:23,199 --> 01:30:26,800
divine revelation is complete and finished and sealed up when

1540
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:29,560
John dies, there's no new divine revelations that are public

1541
01:30:30,199 --> 01:30:36,520
theological revelations. Don't you understand? That makes it very simple

1542
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:40,199
that any cult leader coming along claiming to be a

1543
01:30:40,319 --> 01:30:45,039
new prophet and have new revelations is automatically out of here. Dude,

1544
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:50,279
we already know you're a fraud that cuts out like everything,

1545
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:54,960
even Protestant crops like you don't teach according to you know,

1546
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:57,960
the tradition handed down his pulses. What's up, Austin?

1547
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:00,399
Speaker 2: What's this?

1548
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 1: Man?

1549
01:31:01,039 --> 01:31:04,640
Speaker 6: I have a question about the trans and gental argument.

1550
01:31:04,399 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 3: Thing that you.

1551
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:07,119
Speaker 17: Go by it.

1552
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 8: And I was like curious about the Kant like is

1553
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:14,000
was a Lutheran.

1554
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:20,239
Speaker 3: Or Carl was a Kau was raised by a German

1555
01:31:20,359 --> 01:31:22,560
Pietist family, so they were and they might have been

1556
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,079
influenced by Lutheranism, but it was Pietism.

1557
01:31:27,119 --> 01:31:29,680
Speaker 8: And isn't it Protestant technically or that's not.

1558
01:31:30,079 --> 01:31:34,359
Speaker 3: No, probably absolutely Protestantism is Pietism is absolutely Protestanism.

1559
01:31:34,399 --> 01:31:39,520
Speaker 6: Absolutely so when you bring that up, because I've watched

1560
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:40,960
your great debate or you're.

1561
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 3: Very good at what you do, okay, So can I

1562
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:44,600
just immediately I know where you're going with this. So,

1563
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,640
first of all, the transmonal argument for God is not

1564
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:49,239
from Kant.

1565
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:54,640
Speaker 9: From uh.

1566
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:58,319
Speaker 3: You could argue it's in a way it's done by

1567
01:31:58,359 --> 01:32:02,199
John Damascus in his fam out of knowledge, but I don't.

1568
01:32:02,199 --> 01:32:04,680
I'm not aware of anybody specifically doing the transfit argument

1569
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:07,560
for God until modern Protestants. But do you know what

1570
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:08,800
a genetic fallacy is?

1571
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:12,159
Speaker 6: Uh? No?

1572
01:32:13,159 --> 01:32:15,000
Speaker 3: So that's when you say that something is right or

1573
01:32:15,039 --> 01:32:19,039
wrong based on the source. Okay, so the fact if

1574
01:32:19,079 --> 01:32:22,279
a Protestant made an argument, that would have nothing to

1575
01:32:22,359 --> 01:32:24,399
do with whether they argument is true or false. So

1576
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,439
the source of the thing doesn't prove or disprove, just

1577
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,479
like when Roman Catholics, like when they when they say,

1578
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:35,800
you know, Aristotle's first cause argument. Oh so does that

1579
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:40,520
mean it's fake because it's a ariostols a pagan So

1580
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,439
you see, it's a it's a It's called the genetic

1581
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:45,279
fallacy because the source really has nothing to do with

1582
01:32:45,319 --> 01:32:46,920
whether it's true or false in most cases.

1583
01:32:48,039 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 8: With them, that make Pluto.

1584
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:55,520
Speaker 6: Technically a genetic fallacy. Then with the Bible, because he

1585
01:32:55,640 --> 01:33:00,479
dead is like a religious like ye had make a

1586
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,840
religion his whole plutonium and whatever stuff on to like

1587
01:33:05,399 --> 01:33:08,199
correlate with what con did you talking about?

1588
01:33:08,199 --> 01:33:12,960
Speaker 3: Plato? Plato or who's Pluto or Plato?

1589
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,479
Speaker 6: Sorry I'm in Plato.

1590
01:33:16,119 --> 01:33:19,399
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm like I'm thinking of like I'm thinking of

1591
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:24,439
like Disney. I think I'm thinking of Disney. I think that.

1592
01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:27,399
I think nowadays a lot of people were I believe

1593
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:30,159
in the plu the Pluto forms, like the form of

1594
01:33:30,239 --> 01:33:37,119
Pluto like, I'm sorry, it's just funny, dude. Now wait

1595
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:39,239
a minute, so what so what does that do with Plato?

1596
01:33:39,359 --> 01:33:40,640
Now I'm lost? What about it?

1597
01:33:41,159 --> 01:33:43,319
Speaker 6: No, because Plato didn't he have like a thing where

1598
01:33:43,319 --> 01:33:45,520
he was talking about how to create a religion, you

1599
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:47,640
know before you know, he.

1600
01:33:48,079 --> 01:33:49,319
Speaker 8: Had his own like take on.

1601
01:33:51,319 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 3: Kind of I mean, he believed he was by the

1602
01:33:54,039 --> 01:33:57,920
way I'm still learning, I mean, he believed in noble

1603
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:01,760
he believed in the noble lit so he thought that

1604
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:06,960
the perfect republic could have a fake religion that was

1605
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:08,640
a kind of a cult. Yeah, so that there's an

1606
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:09,880
element of that in Plato. Shure.

1607
01:34:11,239 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 2: Okay, well yeah, as well as I was asking.

1608
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:17,119
Speaker 3: About your Yeah. So so to be clear, right, so

1609
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:22,039
Kant makes transcendental arguments. He's not the first to do it.

1610
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:25,079
You could argue that Aristotle is the first to do it.

1611
01:34:25,239 --> 01:34:30,000
In metaphysics, John Damascus following Aristotle does a very similar

1612
01:34:30,039 --> 01:34:33,159
move at the very beginning of Fount of Knowledge. But

1613
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:36,760
it's actually not until you know, the last century that

1614
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:41,039
Protestants started making c s. Lewis makes a type of

1615
01:34:41,079 --> 01:34:46,079
transcendent argument too one time, very close to it. But

1616
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:51,720
the transcen areum for God is pretty modern, and it

1617
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:55,680
is Protestants who do it. But the argument stands on

1618
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:57,640
its own like it's it's either true or false on

1619
01:34:57,720 --> 01:34:59,800
its own merits. It doesn't matter whether a Protestant came

1620
01:34:59,880 --> 01:35:04,039
up anymore than Aristotle's arguments for first cause are tru

1621
01:35:04,159 --> 01:35:06,600
or false. Because Ariostota was a pagan, he has nothing

1622
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:08,399
to do with whether it's good or whether it stands

1623
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:12,640
or false. So but good question. I'm not trying to

1624
01:35:13,279 --> 01:35:14,680
make fun of you or he means you, but it

1625
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:17,000
was just it was funny. I'm thinking of like pute

1626
01:35:17,039 --> 01:35:22,600
Plutinism now, like like Pluto, like the Disney Indian Disney

1627
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:28,720
like actually now like I remember when I was a

1628
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:34,039
philosophy student, like Plato, he's cool, he's esoteric. Plato is

1629
01:35:34,119 --> 01:35:35,960
kind of an idiot dude, like I would. I would

1630
01:35:36,039 --> 01:35:39,039
more so kind of nowadays be like more into Plutinism,

1631
01:35:39,199 --> 01:35:44,359
like Plutoism, Like I forgot that Pluto was Goofy's dog,

1632
01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:46,640
the way a dog has a dog. That's actually kind

1633
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:52,279
of funny. So Pluto is Goofy's dog, and Goofy is

1634
01:35:52,319 --> 01:35:53,960
a dog with a dog. That's actually pretty funny. I

1635
01:35:54,039 --> 01:36:00,720
never even thought about that. It's meta, dude, Disney's going

1636
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:07,399
like full meta. I'm all, I'm all about some Plutonism now, Alias,

1637
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,520
what's up? Alias? We got Jennifer Garner in the house.

1638
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 8: So I'm not really I don't know a lot about

1639
01:36:26,039 --> 01:36:26,680
this subject.

1640
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,119
Speaker 11: But what do you mean by falls?

1641
01:36:32,039 --> 01:36:33,680
Speaker 3: False just means not true.

1642
01:36:35,119 --> 01:36:37,359
Speaker 8: So Protestantism is false?

1643
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:37,960
Speaker 5: Why?

1644
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:43,399
Speaker 3: Uh, it's not true because it's a copy of a

1645
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:45,000
copy of a copy of a split of a split

1646
01:36:45,079 --> 01:36:45,479
of a split.

1647
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:48,199
Speaker 14: Okay, so what is it?

1648
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 6: What?

1649
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:49,600
Speaker 2: Like, what's missing?

1650
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 3: You've never heard of the word false?

1651
01:36:54,199 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 2: Well, well yeah, but like what is missing in Protestantism?

1652
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:06,039
Speaker 3: A lot of things are missing. Sacraments, tradition, authority, lived

1653
01:37:06,119 --> 01:37:08,960
experience of lives of the saints. I mean a lot

1654
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:09,680
of things are missing.

1655
01:37:14,199 --> 01:37:17,520
Speaker 18: I think like a lot of Catholic people seem to

1656
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:21,279
be an Orthodox people too, seem to be very very strict.

1657
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,159
For me, for example, you know, Christianity is very simple,

1658
01:37:25,279 --> 01:37:26,760
It's kind of like an organic thing.

1659
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like does it really have to be really strict?

1660
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:34,720
Speaker 18: And like oh, you know, because there are like many

1661
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:38,119
ways to believe in you know, God and you know,

1662
01:37:38,680 --> 01:37:39,319
different things.

1663
01:37:42,079 --> 01:37:45,359
Speaker 3: I think we have to follow what Jesus told us.

1664
01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:48,640
And Jesus didn't say that there's many ways to believe

1665
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:52,439
and do the religion, so no, he said there's one way.

1666
01:37:53,279 --> 01:37:58,199
So I think what you're saying is just not even Christianity. Javon,

1667
01:37:58,359 --> 01:38:12,800
what's up? And if you don't like Christianity, consider Pluto

1668
01:38:13,079 --> 01:38:16,800
Plutonism named after Pluto. Javon On, mute man, what's up?

1669
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:18,800
Speaker 14: Hello?

1670
01:38:19,039 --> 01:38:22,720
Speaker 11: I was coming on here to kind of talk about

1671
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:29,439
the cannon and like, second, maccabees, would you be willing.

1672
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:29,880
Speaker 2: To discuss that?

1673
01:38:32,399 --> 01:38:32,520
Speaker 5: Uh?

1674
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:34,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's up?

1675
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:38,680
Speaker 11: Yeah? So I just was wondering, like like just like

1676
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:42,039
for the basis of like my argument, like you would

1677
01:38:42,079 --> 01:38:47,199
agree that apostle and prophet, for example, are have the

1678
01:38:47,279 --> 01:38:53,760
same authority from Jesus Christ to you know, have be

1679
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:54,760
given revelation.

1680
01:38:56,000 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 3: Right, I'm sorry, could you repeat that? As somebody was messaging?

1681
01:39:00,199 --> 01:39:01,399
Can repeat that last point.

1682
01:39:02,359 --> 01:39:04,880
Speaker 11: That profits I'm not a Mormon, by the way, Like

1683
01:39:05,039 --> 01:39:07,800
I'm not trying to make like an argument. I'm saying

1684
01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:11,640
that Christ chose the apostles and they have the same

1685
01:39:12,039 --> 01:39:17,439
authority as the prophets to receive revelations. That's that's my

1686
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:20,039
first point. Like do you agree with that?

1687
01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1688
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:22,239
Speaker 8: Okay?

1689
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:29,000
Speaker 11: So my next point is that scripture requires a living

1690
01:39:29,159 --> 01:39:36,079
prophet or a living apostle to approve or author scripture.

1691
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:43,880
Would you agree with that, like the Twelve including Matthias

1692
01:39:44,039 --> 01:39:49,560
Paul or any of the profits of the Old Testament,

1693
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:54,039
like they have the authority and they would be needed

1694
01:39:54,199 --> 01:39:57,000
to approve or author scripture.

1695
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:03,319
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, the I mean divine revelation is written by

1696
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:09,399
in the New Testament, those people appointed to do it.

1697
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 2: Yes, okay.

1698
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:15,079
Speaker 11: So then my third point is that Second Maccabee's and

1699
01:40:15,359 --> 01:40:18,800
some of the books of the Dudo Cannon do not

1700
01:40:19,079 --> 01:40:23,680
have a living capital p or capital a apostle or

1701
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:28,399
prophet to authorize or author that scripture.

1702
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:31,239
Speaker 3: Oh you said up, I thought were talking about the

1703
01:40:31,279 --> 01:40:33,760
New Testament. So no, I would not I would not

1704
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:42,359
conceive that, Okay, that there's some self evident criteria that

1705
01:40:43,199 --> 01:40:49,159
canonical scripture can only be written by some living appointed prophet.

1706
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:50,479
I'm not sure that that's.

1707
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:53,159
Speaker 11: We're authorized.

1708
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 3: Well who authorizes? What what do you mean?

1709
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:01,079
Speaker 11: Like when Peters and second p so like Second Peter

1710
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:08,279
Chapter one, when he's talking about prophecy never had its

1711
01:41:08,359 --> 01:41:12,359
origins with human will, but God gave it to the prophets,

1712
01:41:13,239 --> 01:41:16,880
and that would include him and the Old Testament prophets.

1713
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:19,960
You would require one of them.

1714
01:41:22,319 --> 01:41:29,079
Speaker 3: But that isn't laying out necessarily the basis for a canon,

1715
01:41:29,319 --> 01:41:36,960
because we already have. I mean, does Ezra I'm just

1716
01:41:37,039 --> 01:41:39,199
thinking out loud, does Ezra prophesy?

1717
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:44,520
Speaker 11: I don't think he necessarily has to, but I think

1718
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:49,760
the presence of a prophet to confirm that revelation is

1719
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:54,039
required because my problem we're running into issues.

1720
01:41:54,319 --> 01:41:59,119
Speaker 3: Hold on, wait a minute. The Book of Wisdom prophesies Christ.

1721
01:42:00,079 --> 01:42:03,840
If Wisdom prophesied Christ, why wouldn't that meet the criteria

1722
01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:04,960
of prophecy.

1723
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:12,560
Speaker 11: Because I think there's specific like capital peep like not everybody.

1724
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:16,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so now it's capital P versus. So now you've

1725
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:20,039
added another You've moved the goalpost that it's not prophetic.

1726
01:42:20,359 --> 01:42:24,399
It's now it's a special capital P. Well, how do

1727
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:25,479
we know that because.

1728
01:42:26,239 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 11: The apostles are only allowed to are Do you agree

1729
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:31,920
with that?

1730
01:42:32,039 --> 01:42:35,560
Speaker 3: No, I'm talking about the Book of the Book of Wisdom.

1731
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:39,760
If that prophesies Christ, why does it not fit into

1732
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:41,079
your criteria of prophecy.

1733
01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:46,079
Speaker 11: I believe that a living apostle or a living prophet

1734
01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:48,520
was able to confirm.

1735
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:50,039
Speaker 3: Well, how do you know that the writer of the

1736
01:42:50,079 --> 01:42:51,600
Book of Wisdom wasn't a living prophet?

1737
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:57,840
Speaker 11: It's not that the person who authored the book. The

1738
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:00,760
person who authored it doesn't have to be a prophet.

1739
01:43:01,039 --> 01:43:02,319
What I'm saying is, there's.

1740
01:43:02,239 --> 01:43:04,640
Speaker 3: A okay, so how about this? Okay, I see what

1741
01:43:04,680 --> 01:43:07,079
you're saying. So how about this the New Testament writer's

1742
01:43:07,359 --> 01:43:11,560
default approve of the Judo canonical text by citing them

1743
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:14,960
many times and using the septuagent, which includes the dudo count.

1744
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:15,319
And how's that?

1745
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:21,239
Speaker 11: I don't agree with that because not only were they

1746
01:43:21,359 --> 01:43:22,640
not present at the time?

1747
01:43:23,319 --> 01:43:25,520
Speaker 3: Who not president at the time? What are you talking about?

1748
01:43:27,239 --> 01:43:28,960
Speaker 11: They weren't present at the time of its writing.

1749
01:43:29,039 --> 01:43:33,199
Speaker 3: Okay, but hold on, what are you talking about? Of course,

1750
01:43:33,239 --> 01:43:35,800
Peter's not going to be how is Peter going to be?

1751
01:43:36,119 --> 01:43:38,520
Hold on? So now, how is Peter going to be

1752
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,239
present at the writing of the Book of Wisdom?

1753
01:43:43,079 --> 01:43:44,359
Speaker 11: Another prophet is.

1754
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 3: What what are you talking about? I don't understand. Can

1755
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:50,680
you explain what you're saying?

1756
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:55,279
Speaker 11: On or sign yes? So Nathan would be around during

1757
01:43:55,359 --> 01:43:56,560
the time of Solomon.

1758
01:43:56,319 --> 01:44:02,119
Speaker 3: Right, I mean he's during the time of David. Maybe

1759
01:44:02,159 --> 01:44:05,119
he lived into Solomon's days, Okay, yeah he did.

1760
01:44:05,279 --> 01:44:09,800
Speaker 11: And I'm saying that those those prophets were authorized by God.

1761
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:14,479
And so what I'm my main argument is that no

1762
01:44:15,079 --> 01:44:20,039
profit who is able to have the authority to author,

1763
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:25,640
author authorized, or or even write scripture is alive during

1764
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:28,239
the time of second mccabee's writing.

1765
01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:30,279
Speaker 2: Like that is my main argument.

1766
01:44:31,359 --> 01:44:34,119
Speaker 3: So you have a presupposition that the only text that

1767
01:44:34,199 --> 01:44:38,199
can be included are quote authorized prophets. And I'm giving

1768
01:44:38,239 --> 01:44:42,239
you examples of how why wouldn't the Book of Maccabe's.

1769
01:44:42,279 --> 01:44:44,960
Let me see, the Book of Wisdom fit into this

1770
01:44:45,119 --> 01:44:48,720
criteria because it prophesies, and how do we know that

1771
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:50,560
it wasn't a prophet that wrote the Book of Wisdom.

1772
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:57,399
Speaker 11: Well, my my contention isn't with the Book of Wisdom.

1773
01:44:57,479 --> 01:44:59,800
It's my contention is with Seco mcabees.

1774
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:03,039
Speaker 3: So, I mean, if so, what you're you're going to

1775
01:45:03,039 --> 01:45:05,560
be the one guy who believes that the wisdom can

1776
01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:07,600
be in the cannon, but just not maccabe's.

1777
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:12,760
Speaker 11: I just don't think that that has to be included

1778
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:14,960
with my argument, That is all I'm saying.

1779
01:45:15,159 --> 01:45:18,079
Speaker 3: But the basis for your argument is arbitrary because now

1780
01:45:18,159 --> 01:45:21,560
it's not about prophecy, it's about a criteria that you

1781
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:24,920
have asserted, is there must be a living prophet at

1782
01:45:25,000 --> 01:45:27,560
the time that authorizes it. Where do you get this?

1783
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:33,640
Speaker 11: I different, well, that that God delivers revelation to only

1784
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:36,520
certain people, like only.

1785
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:39,880
Speaker 3: Like, how does that tell you that Maccabee's isn't isn't?

1786
01:45:40,720 --> 01:45:45,000
How about this? The Church has the authority to authorize

1787
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:48,760
the canon of Scripture and it authorizes Macabees. How's that?

1788
01:45:50,479 --> 01:45:50,680
Speaker 8: See?

1789
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:51,399
Speaker 14: I can.

1790
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:56,159
Speaker 11: We can talk about that point. I just think that

1791
01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:03,720
because the because Paul sites like right epimenities these Greek philosophers.

1792
01:46:04,399 --> 01:46:06,279
But that doesn't necessarily mean just.

1793
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,479
Speaker 3: But nobody says that just because yeah, but nobody's arguing

1794
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:11,479
that just because it's citing the New Testament is therefore

1795
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:13,279
in the canon. I never made that argument.

1796
01:46:14,319 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 11: Yeah no, And I'm not accusing you that. I've simply

1797
01:46:18,640 --> 01:46:22,199
just wanted to be like, is would your your criteria

1798
01:46:22,319 --> 01:46:28,439
does not include that a profit be present or authorized?

1799
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:29,479
Speaker 8: Because I just.

1800
01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:31,319
Speaker 3: Haven't, Like, I just don't know where you're even getting

1801
01:46:31,359 --> 01:46:34,600
this criteria, Like it's it's this you're asserting it, But

1802
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:36,119
where is that from? How do you know that?

1803
01:46:37,119 --> 01:46:40,399
Speaker 11: Yeah? So second Peter, if you you know two Peter,

1804
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:43,520
chapter one, ninety, But.

1805
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:46,319
Speaker 3: That doesn't tell you anything about the canon. That's just

1806
01:46:46,399 --> 01:46:50,079
Peter talking about inspiration. How does that tell you that

1807
01:46:50,199 --> 01:46:52,359
this How does that tell you that the principle that

1808
01:46:52,399 --> 01:46:56,239
you're asserting is proven. Just because Peter says that no

1809
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:58,920
prophet spoke of his own but was moved by the

1810
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:01,760
Holy Spirit, that doesn't tell you that quote. A prophet

1811
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:05,600
must be present to authorize the writing of a text,

1812
01:47:07,119 --> 01:47:08,439
and how do you know that there was? How do

1813
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:11,119
you know that there wasn't a prophet present in the

1814
01:47:11,199 --> 01:47:13,119
days of the Maccabees or the writing of Wisdom?

1815
01:47:14,279 --> 01:47:18,800
Speaker 11: Because I believe God makes a specific point that Malachi

1816
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:23,119
is the Honestly, some people make the argument that it's

1817
01:47:23,239 --> 01:47:27,319
Zechariah because Jesus mentioned Zacharia being murdered in the temple,

1818
01:47:28,079 --> 01:47:30,720
so some people think that Zachariah was the last prophet

1819
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:34,159
to live. But since we placed Malachi at the end.

1820
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:38,760
In Malachi's message is that God is going to send Elijah,

1821
01:47:39,199 --> 01:47:40,279
Oh Jesus.

1822
01:47:40,159 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 3: Well, that's just you're assuming that it's because of the

1823
01:47:43,239 --> 01:47:47,600
Protestant placement of the books, that that's the end. That's

1824
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:49,479
a Protestant placement of the books. So it doesn't mean

1825
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:52,640
it's the last of that nobody prophesied during that time.

1826
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:56,439
Speaker 11: Well I'm well, I'm saying.

1827
01:47:56,479 --> 01:47:58,920
Speaker 3: So it's an argument from silence, No.

1828
01:47:59,399 --> 01:48:04,399
Speaker 11: The message of Malachi four, Malachi four or five, when God.

1829
01:48:04,279 --> 01:48:06,840
Speaker 3: Says he's going to Okay, So do you know how

1830
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:10,399
like the Orthodox Bible, how what its last book is.

1831
01:48:13,239 --> 01:48:15,800
It's Daniel. So the fact that it's ordered in that

1832
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,600
way and your Protestant Bible doesn't mean that it's the

1833
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,039
last of the prophets. So you're reading into all this

1834
01:48:21,119 --> 01:48:23,079
stuff a bunch of the Protestant assumptions.

1835
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 11: I can see that, and again I concede it like

1836
01:48:28,199 --> 01:48:32,920
some people believe it's zacharias Jesus mentions him being you

1837
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:37,359
know from I can't remember the first prophet he said.

1838
01:48:37,239 --> 01:48:39,119
Speaker 3: How do you know that these principles are the case?

1839
01:48:39,159 --> 01:48:42,199
You just keep asserting that this is how it works,

1840
01:48:43,079 --> 01:48:47,840
And on what basis? Where does this how do we

1841
01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:52,760
know that this is the case? Well, I mean, where

1842
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:55,920
does Peter. Peter doesn't say he's laying out a cannon principle.

1843
01:48:56,359 --> 01:48:59,399
He's just talking about inspiration. So where is that where

1844
01:48:59,439 --> 01:48:59,840
you're getting that?

1845
01:49:01,119 --> 01:49:04,439
Speaker 11: Well, we must agree on some point that not everybody

1846
01:49:04,600 --> 01:49:06,560
who author scripture correct.

1847
01:49:07,159 --> 01:49:10,279
Speaker 3: Well, okay, but that's an argument from silence. That doesn't

1848
01:49:10,359 --> 01:49:13,960
prove your positive case about there must be some living

1849
01:49:14,039 --> 01:49:16,079
profit president who confirms it that we know.

1850
01:49:18,359 --> 01:49:22,039
Speaker 11: So okay, I'm sorry, Maybe I should have asked your

1851
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:27,520
assertions first. So do you what do you believe is

1852
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:32,199
the basis of what should be considered scripture? Like is

1853
01:49:32,279 --> 01:49:37,199
there any authorship like criteria?

1854
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:41,199
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, authorship plays a role. Like Matthew, the

1855
01:49:41,319 --> 01:49:44,479
disciple of Christ needs to be the Matthew that we

1856
01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:47,000
think he is. But we only know that from the

1857
01:49:47,039 --> 01:49:49,600
tradition of the Church, because Matthew doesn't tell us who

1858
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:54,119
that is. So we need external witnesses as well as

1859
01:49:54,279 --> 01:49:57,520
internal witnesses. I don't deny there's internal you know, Peter

1860
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:00,359
refers to Paul's text as scripture. I don't have a

1861
01:50:00,359 --> 01:50:02,720
problem with any of that. None of that proves any

1862
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:06,359
of the Protestant arguments for solo scriptura or that they

1863
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,239
can derive the canon through some sort of you know,

1864
01:50:09,399 --> 01:50:15,720
arbitrary you know, personal reason he left, so whatever. It's like,

1865
01:50:16,279 --> 01:50:18,840
I think Protestants missed the point when it comes to

1866
01:50:19,279 --> 01:50:23,279
when we ask them for the epistemic principle, they just

1867
01:50:23,359 --> 01:50:26,359
keep sort of asserting, well, it's this, Oh, but it's this,

1868
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:29,319
you see, Well, because we all agree with this, it's

1869
01:50:29,359 --> 01:50:33,119
got to be this. None of that addresses when I

1870
01:50:33,239 --> 01:50:37,840
ask about epistemic criteria. So I wasn't trying to be

1871
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:39,960
mean to that guy. I don't know if maybe he's

1872
01:50:40,720 --> 01:50:43,800
dropped off like his sel cut out, or he just left.

1873
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:47,319
I don't know. Levka two dollars, Thank you so much,

1874
01:50:48,079 --> 01:50:52,079
Levka eight five dollars. If the apostles follow the subtuagent,

1875
01:50:52,680 --> 01:50:54,600
why is there such a problem or controversy the Old

1876
01:50:54,640 --> 01:51:02,119
Testament canon amongst the church fathers. Well, not all the

1877
01:51:02,239 --> 01:51:07,520
church fathers necessarily knew what all the apostles were doing,

1878
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:10,760
precisely because the evidence that they would have looked at

1879
01:51:11,279 --> 01:51:14,199
to see what the apostles were doing was in question.

1880
01:51:16,399 --> 01:51:20,960
But again, the majority of the church fathers do include

1881
01:51:21,399 --> 01:51:26,199
due to econonical texts. So why wouldn't if you're a Protestant,

1882
01:51:26,279 --> 01:51:28,720
why wouldn't you just go with the majority of the

1883
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:32,920
church father's position. But of course it presents a problem

1884
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:35,960
for them, so they have to go to pick and

1885
01:51:36,079 --> 01:51:38,399
choose this or that church father, which really it's only

1886
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:48,920
Jerome is the only one they have. So I don't

1887
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:51,000
like people talking smack, like, why don't you just hop

1888
01:51:51,079 --> 01:51:53,720
on in the stream instead of arguing in the chat.

1889
01:51:53,800 --> 01:52:03,800
You guys are frightful, a bunch of frightful children. I've

1890
01:52:03,840 --> 01:52:05,760
had about enough. I think I don't think I could

1891
01:52:05,760 --> 01:52:07,439
take much more. You guys want to support the stream,

1892
01:52:07,439 --> 01:52:12,159
you can do so by going over to chalk dot

1893
01:52:12,279 --> 01:52:15,079
com c choq dot com. Use the promo code J

1894
01:52:15,319 --> 01:52:19,279
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1895
01:52:19,319 --> 01:52:22,039
You can test them out with the J forty promo

1896
01:52:22,359 --> 01:52:24,159
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1897
01:52:24,479 --> 01:52:26,359
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1898
01:52:26,399 --> 01:52:29,640
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1899
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:36,760
If you use that promo code, it is a recurring subscription. Okay,

1900
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:38,800
I'll go to I'm only going to you if you disagree.

1901
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:45,319
I'm not doing you know, anything but disagreements, so you

1902
01:52:45,399 --> 01:52:48,039
can unsubscribe at any time if you want to use

1903
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:55,319
chalk dot com. I don't see anybody else. I thank

1904
01:52:55,319 --> 01:52:58,560
you guys a lot of fun tonight. If you would

1905
01:53:00,640 --> 01:53:09,279
feel free to clip this, feel free to so I

1906
01:53:09,359 --> 01:53:13,760
see people in the chat or like people not understand,

1907
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:18,640
like just asserting that this is the principle. Competer's epistle

1908
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,239
doesn't say that this is the principle of canonicity, right,

1909
01:53:21,319 --> 01:53:25,039
that's an interpretation. Maybe his interpretation is correct, but even

1910
01:53:25,119 --> 01:53:29,960
his interpretation, like all he was arguing is that this

1911
01:53:30,079 --> 01:53:35,159
shows me that Maccabees isn't canonical. But there's nobody in

1912
01:53:35,239 --> 01:53:36,840
the world who believes that