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<v Speaker 1>The McDonald's grappled with profound spiritual questions. Could they reconcile

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<v Speaker 1>their faith with loving and accepting their gay son. Their

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<v Speaker 1>attempts to remain closeted about his sexualities strain their family

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<v Speaker 1>and marriage as they feared the judgment of their evangelical community.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet moments of vulnerability lend battle with cancer and Greg

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<v Speaker 1>Junior's care for her challenge their belief. Over time, exposure

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<v Speaker 1>to LGBTQ plus voices and progressive Christian scholars like David

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<v Speaker 1>Gushy reshaped their view, leading to a deeper understanding of

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<v Speaker 1>both love and scripture. This story invites critical reflection. How

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<v Speaker 1>does a faith community stance on LGBTQ plus issues shape

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<v Speaker 1>family relationship, Can personal experiences lead to reinterpretation of deeply

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<v Speaker 1>held beliefs, and what role should love and empathy play

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<v Speaker 1>in navigating tensions between faith and identity. The story is

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<v Speaker 1>from CNN by John Blake on November third, twenty four. So, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>my first question is coming to you. How did the

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<v Speaker 1>McDonald's initial reaction to their sons coming out reflect broader

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<v Speaker 1>tensions within conservative Christian communities regarding LGBTQ accepted well.

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<v Speaker 2>So as they describe it, and the whole article kind

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<v Speaker 2>of had this sort of atmosphere to it that was

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<v Speaker 2>all about the parents and how their lives were different

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<v Speaker 2>now because they found out that their son is gay, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was kind of a strange thing. But what

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<v Speaker 2>their initial reaction was, well, for the dad says that

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<v Speaker 2>he is first thing he said to him was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll love you no matter what, but we got to

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<v Speaker 2>fix you. And he, you know, when it got out

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<v Speaker 2>into the community that he, you know, he was gay,

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<v Speaker 2>his parents were hearing the same thing from other people.

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<v Speaker 2>His dad said that one of his like work relationships

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<v Speaker 2>didn't work out because of because of his son being gay,

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<v Speaker 2>and someone said, you need to get a handle your son. So,

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<v Speaker 2>as the article talked about, that's a thing that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of you know LGBTQ plus people from conservative Christian

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<v Speaker 2>families and homes and towns go through, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>really really similar story or experience. What I applaud the

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<v Speaker 2>McDonald's for is that they did eventually take a step

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<v Speaker 2>back and say, hey, like, you know, maybe I have

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<v Speaker 2>something wrong, maybe my beliefs aren't quite you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>as as as right as I thought, And they started

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<v Speaker 2>to re examine that. I don't think they quite landed,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as close to rights as we would all hope,

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<v Speaker 2>but I applaud them for that at least.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you mentioned the whole notion concerning fixing their son,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believe that the article actually touched on conversion therapy,

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<v Speaker 1>which is something that we talked about here on the

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<v Speaker 1>nonprofits quite extensively. And I kind of want to throw

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<v Speaker 1>this to you, Jimmy, because the parents actually sought conversion

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<v Speaker 1>therapy as a means of fixing quote unquote their son.

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<v Speaker 1>In hindsight, what are the psychological and emotional costs of

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<v Speaker 1>practices like conversion therapy for both the individual and the

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<v Speaker 1>family if you can, if you can really just recall

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<v Speaker 1>how that could be a notion that could be very

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<v Speaker 1>I would say, detrimental to all who happened to be.

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<v Speaker 3>Involved conversion therapy or trying to fix somebody who really

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<v Speaker 3>isn't broken. I would say, probably has a really profound

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<v Speaker 3>effect on the person that is trying to be fixed

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<v Speaker 3>or in the position to be fixed quote unquote. This

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<v Speaker 3>probably won't strengthen his ties with his family. It didn't

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<v Speaker 3>in the end, but it won't make that person feel

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<v Speaker 3>better about themselves. It just makes them feel more out

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<v Speaker 3>of place and more more broken, if you will, because

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<v Speaker 3>this is a waste of time and waste of energy,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's a very emotional event. I think for people

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<v Speaker 3>to be in this position to be fixed, it just

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<v Speaker 3>highlights that there is something wrong with them, that there's

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<v Speaker 3>something wrong with their life. You know, there's something wrong

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<v Speaker 3>with who they are. And so I think that a

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<v Speaker 3>person in that position would suffer. But you know, and

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<v Speaker 3>not that I'm sympathetic to the parents, but I think

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<v Speaker 3>they suffer as well, because then they never get to

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<v Speaker 3>the goal that they are set out to. Well, that

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<v Speaker 3>that they've embarked on, right, they they're never going to

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<v Speaker 3>arrive at a fixing. It's always going to be a

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<v Speaker 3>farce if they even do arrive there. But I think

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<v Speaker 3>the harm is captured in how this article highlights the

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<v Speaker 3>father's views of his son, saying you can be an

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<v Speaker 3>axe murderer and we would still love you. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>are we comparing homosexuality to axe murderer? Is that what

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<v Speaker 3>we're is that what we're looking at? I mean, is

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<v Speaker 3>it really that bad as being that? Being gay is

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<v Speaker 3>not bad?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>But let's just say in the context of having an

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<v Speaker 3>undesirable position or or life. Is it as bad? I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>do these Christian people think that being a being homosexual

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<v Speaker 3>is as bad? So yeah, those are my thoughts on that. Harmful, harmful,

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<v Speaker 3>very harmful.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know I did have a big problem with that, Jimmy,

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<v Speaker 1>especially you know, saying, oh, we still love you. You can

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<v Speaker 1>do basically a whole bunch of serial killing and we

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<v Speaker 1>would still love you. And I and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>the issue that they had with how they were viewing

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<v Speaker 1>what it means to be gay and in context, because

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you mentioned like needing more contest, especially

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<v Speaker 1>from the father when it came to how you know

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<v Speaker 1>one is viewing another person, even if they come from

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<v Speaker 1>them on you know, should I say okay, well yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what what you what you have chose? I and I

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<v Speaker 1>use that, you know, very hyperbiologist of course to do

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<v Speaker 1>with your life as far as like you know, how

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<v Speaker 1>you chose to live your life, you know during your

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<v Speaker 1>sexual orientation is a problem. But at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, having them, as you said, being compared with

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<v Speaker 1>something that is objectively worse and saying that Okay, this

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<v Speaker 1>is something that I but I will still love you anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>I would definitely think is an issue. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>but at least we had like some type of redemption,

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<v Speaker 1>redemption per se, and I and I would like for

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<v Speaker 1>both of you guys to talk about that, because there

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<v Speaker 1>was an eventually eventual shift in the attitudes towards sarragay

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<v Speaker 1>son and I know that, like and I and I

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<v Speaker 1>did like mention it a little bit, like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when we were first talking about, like you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>an introduction, like you know, they did happen to get

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<v Speaker 1>I guess more information. They were exposed to David Gushy

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<v Speaker 1>and some of you know, his rhetoric about being and

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<v Speaker 1>again I don't know if that's like a better term,

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<v Speaker 1>but about really just being more tolerant and actually saying that, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>this is not necessarily a bad thing. Right, So, if

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<v Speaker 1>if you guys want to kind of like just like

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<v Speaker 1>jump in and just like really just talk about like

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<v Speaker 1>some of these other external influences that really helped to

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<v Speaker 1>shape the changing of how like the McDonald's really viewed

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<v Speaker 1>their son and their son's sexuality, and how, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 1>I think made it a little bit better for both

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<v Speaker 1>of them to actually have like a better relationship between

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<v Speaker 1>them and their son, Eli, I would like for you

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<v Speaker 1>to start upon that, and then Jimmy, I would like

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<v Speaker 1>for you to do a follow up.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. So that also wasn't like the only like completely

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<v Speaker 2>terrible attitude they had towards homosexuality that like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's equitable to act murdering. They also said things like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know who the idea was it to let them

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<v Speaker 2>take those art classes, or you didn't go camping with

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<v Speaker 2>them or take them on enough fishing trips or play

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<v Speaker 2>baseball with him enough as a kid, and that's why

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<v Speaker 2>he's gay now. And it really illustrated this sort of

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<v Speaker 2>absurd mindset they had towards homosexuality, you know, around the

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<v Speaker 2>time and before and even slightly after they found out

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<v Speaker 2>that their son was gay. And it does they do

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<v Speaker 2>shift later on because of these you know, outside influences

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned, They do shift to this somewhat better attitude,

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<v Speaker 2>But it still doesn't quite land as like a feel

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<v Speaker 2>good story to me, because it's still looking at it

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<v Speaker 2>as sort of like you can love God even if

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<v Speaker 2>your kids are gay, rather than like, hey, being gay

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<v Speaker 2>is just regular, like just like not being gay, Like

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's not they're not shifting their attitude attitude to

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter. They're shifting it to well, we can

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<v Speaker 2>love you anyway, and that's okay with God. And it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't wow exactly like, you know, even though you're worse

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<v Speaker 2>of a person than all the rest of us, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it still does. It still hits that way for me.

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<v Speaker 3>Excellent point. You know, I I think that the failure

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<v Speaker 3>of this family is that they never established the normalcy

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<v Speaker 3>of their son, right not accepting him in the first place, Well,

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<v Speaker 3>that is a failure on their part. But then the

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<v Speaker 3>only way to accept him is to kind of reach

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<v Speaker 3>out to other parents who are also struggling, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>when the struggle is really not theirs. The struggle is

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<v Speaker 3>for the person who's trying to fit in with a community,

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<v Speaker 3>a society, a family that doctrinally rejects him. And so

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<v Speaker 3>I wrote a note here which I have to highlight

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<v Speaker 3>because it's kind of hilarious because I have a typo

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<v Speaker 3>and I have no idea what I was trying to say.

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<v Speaker 3>So I said, so many people treat these struggles as

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<v Speaker 3>their own when they are the ones serial the actual struggle. So,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I don't know how the word cereal got

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<v Speaker 3>in there. But I know what I was trying to say,

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<v Speaker 3>and that is, don't pretend that your son is not

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<v Speaker 3>the one that's struggling, and try and cry poor me

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<v Speaker 3>the reason. And even though there is a shift at

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<v Speaker 3>the end where they do kind of come around to

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<v Speaker 3>not ostracize him or reject him outright, I'll say that

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<v Speaker 3>I'll take it in a sense, but really what this

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<v Speaker 3>does for me is highlight the overarching problem that we're

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<v Speaker 3>li in plays for society. Right, So doctrinally, like I said,

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<v Speaker 3>you've got this group of people that just is brought

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<v Speaker 3>up and spews and allows hate to just continue to

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<v Speaker 3>exist by being a catalyst for it until it happens

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<v Speaker 3>to them, and then they have to go, oh crap.

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<v Speaker 3>And I made a note about again about the Salem

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<v Speaker 3>witch trials. Everybody was burning everybody, right, especially the women,

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<v Speaker 3>mostly the women, until the judge and a couple of

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<v Speaker 3>other high ranking people in the sale of witch trials

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<v Speaker 3>kids were accused, and then it was oh, this isn't

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<v Speaker 3>this isn't real anymore. We can't allow spectral evidence in court,

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<v Speaker 3>and so people have to change when they are confronted

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<v Speaker 3>with kind of their own bs, and so in the end,

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<v Speaker 3>I think I'll take it. It's like it's like the March

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<v Speaker 3>towards spirituality where people say, well, I'm not religious anymore,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just spiritual. Okay, I guess I'll take it because

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<v Speaker 3>at least you're not adhering to a really hateful religion

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<v Speaker 3>and it's a progression away from it. But another thing

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<v Speaker 3>I want to highlight real quick is that this highlights

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<v Speaker 3>the abuses of women by churches as well. So you know,

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<v Speaker 3>somebody that they had gone to for help had explained

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<v Speaker 3>that having a domineering mother can have this impact on

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<v Speaker 3>men to be I guess homosexuals, it always comes down

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<v Speaker 3>to the women, doesn't it. They always find a way

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<v Speaker 3>to blame women. So yeah, there's just a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>problems with religion, problems that or stories like this highlight them,

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<v Speaker 3>even if it looks like there's a happy ending.

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<v Speaker 1>As the sitting woman on this panel with also a

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<v Speaker 1>child whining in the background, sorry about that to say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I find it, like, I don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>call it necessarily ironic, but I found it like definitely

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<v Speaker 1>problematic that this particular story just highlights like a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the different issues that we have with biases and

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<v Speaker 1>also church right now, when it comes to how we

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<v Speaker 1>are viewing people that's around us that happen to be different.

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<v Speaker 1>If they don't necessarily like settle into the societal norm

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<v Speaker 1>like being cis gender heterosexual, then it's a problem, right

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<v Speaker 1>And I know that the Church along with their rhetoric,

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<v Speaker 1>even though like that, we have very little passages in

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<v Speaker 1>the Bible that talks really about like, you know, sexual orientation.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you actually talk to some of the most

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<v Speaker 1>pre eminent scholars in the Bible when we're thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the scriptures that may seem that they're talking

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<v Speaker 1>against homosexuality, we find that the context is very different

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<v Speaker 1>than what we actually think when actually it's being interpreted

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<v Speaker 1>as correct. So I feel really for you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>sun And even though that I applaud the efforts a

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<v Speaker 1>bit from the parents when it comes to them being

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<v Speaker 1>able to kind of leap frog over them your own

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<v Speaker 1>indoctrination when it comes to how you know, gay people

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<v Speaker 1>are talked about, As you said, Jimmy, that problem is

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<v Speaker 1>still there. Do you all feel and I would love

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<v Speaker 1>for you guys to chime in about this. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>feel that the church holds some responsibility on how we

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<v Speaker 1>actually are looking at you know, gay people, people who

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<v Speaker 1>happen to be in the queer community, queer community on hold,

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<v Speaker 1>because remember and especially like nowadays and and as of

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<v Speaker 1>recent events, we know that you know, queer people, especially

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<v Speaker 1>trans people are very much so under attack. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just like you know from you know this one

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<v Speaker 1>person who says they don't like you. This the person

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't say it is like you. I mean like it's

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<v Speaker 1>actually becoming policy now right, And and we know that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these particular sensibilities have come from faith

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<v Speaker 1>based institutions. So what does the church actually what what

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<v Speaker 1>what what does the church's role play into actually helping

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<v Speaker 1>to maybe reformulate some of the rhetoric that is out

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<v Speaker 1>and about on a societal whole. And is there any

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<v Speaker 1>and and do we have even seeing them possibly because

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<v Speaker 1>we did have a David Gucci, I guess, but do

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<v Speaker 1>we do we see this as a possibility of a

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<v Speaker 1>change agent in the church in general to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to say, maybe the way that we are talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the peer community is unjust and we need to change it. Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>I would like for you to start, and then Jimmy

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<v Speaker 1>Light for you.

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<v Speaker 2>To follow up. I'm not sure if I think it

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily would go that way. I think there's a chance

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<v Speaker 2>that if if it sort of depends on where the

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<v Speaker 2>majority sits. I guess if you have a majority of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, congregations or churches or denominations starting to affirm uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know LGBTQ plus people as they called it, there

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<v Speaker 2>was it was previously there was doctrines to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>be accepting of them, and now it's moving more towards

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<v Speaker 2>being affirming them. And sort of because I was saying

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the way that I was saying, this ministry

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<v Speaker 2>that McDonald's have started didn't do. This ministry they've started

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<v Speaker 2>is more on along the lines of accepting and just

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<v Speaker 2>tolerating as sort of like a passive tolerance rather than

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<v Speaker 2>an affirming acceptance and love. I think it is equally

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<v Speaker 2>likely that the now that if they start to see

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<v Speaker 2>the ability to if they start to feel emboldened going

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<v Speaker 2>into the future, these religious groups, I mean, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>chance that they might start to be more restrictive of

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<v Speaker 2>LGBTQ plus people again and be less accepting and less

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<v Speaker 2>affirming because they feel like they can get away with

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<v Speaker 2>it more now and they don't have to appease to whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the parties that they might not want to

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<v Speaker 2>appease to anymore now they don't have to. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's just as likely that it could go either way.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure which one I expect.

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<v Speaker 3>The Church is absolutely responsible for the way that LGBTQ

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<v Speaker 3>community and LGBTQ people are treated. The Church is nothing

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<v Speaker 3>more than a power structure. It is not some miraculous,

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<v Speaker 3>supernatural thing that has anything to do with the deity.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a completely man made institution that people use

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<v Speaker 3>to climb to the top, and when they get to

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<v Speaker 3>the top positions, they are in control. They're in control

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<v Speaker 3>of societies. They're in control of society's wealth because they

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<v Speaker 3>collect it from people, because they make them feel guilty

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<v Speaker 3>and fearful their entire lives, and those people then turn

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<v Speaker 3>and pay them to fix it. Okay. The Church feels

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<v Speaker 3>that the LGBTQ community at least at least going back

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<v Speaker 3>to where we have a more traditional idea of Christianity,

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<v Speaker 3>and the church feels that the LGBTQ outlook is a

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<v Speaker 3>challenge to this power structure, because then it negates what's

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<v Speaker 3>in the Bible, and then it causes people to tear

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<v Speaker 3>down the argument that the church makes for its legitimacy.

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<v Speaker 3>The church cannot coexist with the LGBTQ community and still

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<v Speaker 3>maintain its credibility, maintain its accuracy. However, what we see

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<v Speaker 3>nowadays is that churches more and more are making exceptions

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<v Speaker 3>for LGBTQ people because the court of public opinion is

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<v Speaker 3>saying that LGBTQ people should not be mistreated and should

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<v Speaker 3>not be othered. And the church church in general, I

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<v Speaker 3>mean multiple factions of Christianity are losing money, losing participation,

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<v Speaker 3>losing their congregation, and they are making changes in order

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<v Speaker 3>to maintain their power, and that is all that's happening.

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<v Speaker 3>They are absolutely the blame for perpetuating this lie about

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<v Speaker 3>LGBTQ people and not fixing their own internal problems where

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<v Speaker 3>homosexuality forced homosexuality is currently at play now. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>think there's anything wrong with homosexuality. I do think there

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<v Speaker 3>is something wrong with an adult forcing it on a minor,

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<v Speaker 3>which we know happens by the tens of thousands every

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<v Speaker 3>year across the world, probably a higher number than that. Yesterday,

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<v Speaker 3>the Archbishop of Canterbury in the Anglican Church resigned because

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<v Speaker 3>it came to light that they had been covering up

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<v Speaker 3>child abuse for decades, decades, and he says he's stepping

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<v Speaker 3>down because it was grossly mismandaged. No, you're stepping down

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<v Speaker 3>because you got caught. That's why you're stepping down. And

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<v Speaker 3>so the church has a responsibility to clean up its

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<v Speaker 3>own act and stop pointing the finger at other people

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<v Speaker 3>who are not doing anything wrong except challenging their incredibly

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<v Speaker 3>extremist and archaic views. That's my view on that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's your point, he was sticking to it. Yeah, yeah, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>as a former Anglican person, I will say that we

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<v Speaker 1>will cover that story that you mentioned, Jimmy about the

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<v Speaker 1>Archbishop of Canterbury just a little bit. It wasn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>the Archbishop of Canterbury. He actually was covering up for

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<v Speaker 1>one of the lawyers that turned to a priest who

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<v Speaker 1>was sexually abusing a boys and young men, also not

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<v Speaker 1>only in England but also in African countries of Zimbabwa

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<v Speaker 1>in South Africa. That's right, Yeah, and he's been doing

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<v Speaker 1>it since nineteen eighty four, So we'll talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>But