Speaker 1: There's so much news happening from the agencies all the
Speaker 1: time now, and that is something that people have been
Speaker 1: waiting for since before I even joined the industry. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us have seen Solana, bitcoin eth.
Speaker 1: We all understood those to be digital commodities, but it's
Speaker 1: very different for the SEC and the CFTC to both
Speaker 1: come out and say that.
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Speaker 2: see why the biggest players in crypto trust Bitgo. Hey everyone,
Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host Tony
Speaker 2: Edward and joining me today is Patrick Wilson, who's the
Speaker 2: General counsel at the Solana Policy Institute, which is a
Speaker 2: nonpartisan nonprofit focused on educating policymakers on decentralized networks like Solana. Patrick,
Speaker 2: great to have you.
Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thanks so much. Love your show.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and I'm excited to dive into the details
Speaker 2: around crypto legislation and regulations, taxes and much more. Because
Speaker 2: there's so much happening Patrick, it's like drinking from the fire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot going on right now. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. We have forty five minutes today. Hopefully we
Speaker 1: can cover everything we need to.
Speaker 2: We may have to do around two, but we'll see
Speaker 2: how much we can get to today. Sounds great, So Patrick,
Speaker 2: let's start with your background. Tell us about where you
Speaker 2: grew up, how'd you get into the legal industry and
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 1: So, actually born and raised in Georgia, as you can
Speaker 1: probably tell from my thick southern accent. I was born
Speaker 1: and raised and went to school down there, and then
Speaker 1: took the opportunity to move up to New York for
Speaker 1: law school. Not in the city, I was upstate, and
Speaker 1: after a clerking for a judge down in Florida, made
Speaker 1: my way back up and started working at law firms,
Speaker 1: though sort of the big law firm life in New
Speaker 1: York City that so many of US lawyers do. I
Speaker 1: was working on primarily litigation at first, and then focus
Speaker 1: more on regulatory investigations and white collar criminal defense, and
Speaker 1: that I did until about twenty twenty. My first role
Speaker 1: and move into crypto was a coinbase in twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: the height of the Gensler era, so there was a
Speaker 1: lot of work to do. My regulatory investigations background really
Speaker 1: came in handy there, and then moved from there to
Speaker 1: another startup and then finally at uniswap Labs was prior
Speaker 1: to SPI, so I worked on litigation investigations there as well,
Speaker 1: trying to help to defend the industry and defy from
Speaker 1: what was looming from the prior SEC as well in
Speaker 1: class actions.
Speaker 2: What a time to come into the market when you
Speaker 2: had the SEC attacking literally attacking the industry in some
Speaker 2: ways unlawful at some points. Was that unlike anything you've
Speaker 2: seen before.
Speaker 1: Ye. I think the experience i'd had in law firm
Speaker 1: life really helped to prepare me for the stress and
Speaker 1: hours that would be involved in dealing with all of
Speaker 1: the investigations and litigation that was coming toward Coinbase in
Speaker 1: particular at the time, and then seeing just what's happening
Speaker 1: in the broader industry. So I think it was good training,
Speaker 1: but nothing necessarily prepares you for being right there at
Speaker 1: the time and being in the tornado itself. So it
Speaker 1: was really it was really great experience, and I had
Speaker 1: a great team there at Coinbase that I worked with
Speaker 1: as well in all those issues.
Speaker 2: So what was your journey like in learning about blockchain tech?
Speaker 2: Because obviously it's brand new, you know, everyone goes through
Speaker 2: the journey of trying to figure out what is this,
Speaker 2: how does it work? And you know, obviously you're a
Speaker 2: legal expert, but the technology is so rapidly different. What
Speaker 2: was that journey like to learning all that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, my real first introduction. You may have probably heard
Speaker 1: something like this from other lawyers in the past, but
Speaker 1: the law firms were not necessarily quick to embrace crypto,
Speaker 1: and there was a real aversion for at least some
Speaker 1: time because of the headlines and everything that was happening
Speaker 1: in the twenty tens that they didn't really want to
Speaker 1: touch crypto clients so much. So I didn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of exposure until there was another associate in my
Speaker 1: group whose brother was actually working on a crypto project,
Speaker 1: and she hosted a lunch and learn really to try
Speaker 1: and explain a little bit about the technology and what
Speaker 1: her brother was working on. And I found that fascinating.
Speaker 1: And the thought about how that can really blend into
Speaker 1: democratizing finance and you know, leading to where we are today,
Speaker 1: with where we're headed in the future of finance, with
Speaker 1: with potential on chain securities and derivatives trading like that
Speaker 1: was just fascinating to me. And I've been very lucky
Speaker 1: to have had along my way at these companies engineers
Speaker 1: and folks in product who will really sit down and
Speaker 1: explain the tech in depth and there it's so valuable
Speaker 1: to have experts sit there, draw you pictures, really explain
Speaker 1: how everything, how everything works, because that's also valuable for
Speaker 1: you to be able to communicate with regulators how things
Speaker 1: work and you may have heard this, but let's time
Speaker 1: let's dispel this rumor and show you what's actually going
Speaker 1: in on the inside.
Speaker 2: So Patrick, I think needless to say, we are in
Speaker 2: better days, right, things have completely changed things through folks
Speaker 2: like yourself and others. You know, what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: on how the regulatory environment, just even the approach of
Speaker 2: the SEC, would you know, cher Paul Adkins, and even
Speaker 2: the CFTC as well.
Speaker 1: It feels like a different world. And we joke sometimes
Speaker 1: that when we walk into the SEC, if we were
Speaker 1: there two years ago, we would have left with a
Speaker 1: subpoena and and today we're leaving with constructive dialogue and
Speaker 1: real duouts for things that we can do and contribute
Speaker 1: to make to make the industry better and to make
Speaker 1: more clear rules of the road for folks to be
Speaker 1: able to develop. And I think that is that difference
Speaker 1: cannot be understated. The openness and willingness for the agencies
Speaker 1: to engage, the push from the administration and members of
Speaker 1: Congress to really make sure that crypto can come back
Speaker 1: to the US and that it's useful to everyday Americans
Speaker 1: and people who want to transact, people who want to invest.
Speaker 1: It should all be available to them. And this is
Speaker 1: really really an amazing situation that we're seeing now where
Speaker 1: all of the powers that be are really really working
Speaker 1: together to make sure that could happen.
Speaker 2: So tell us a bit about what the SPI, the
Speaker 2: Salona Policy Institute Day's doing to educate these regulators and
Speaker 2: working with them to help find the right rules of
Speaker 2: the road and guard bills to put in place. And
Speaker 2: by the way, congrats on the one year anniversary of
Speaker 2: the SBI.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was not there from day one, but
Speaker 1: I will applaud Miller white House Lavine our CEO. He
Speaker 1: was the one who really founded it, got it off
Speaker 1: the ground, and he employee number one, just celebrated his
Speaker 1: one year anniversary along with SPI. So really excited about that.
Speaker 1: And what SBI is really working to do is to,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, help the lawmakers and policy makers regulators
Speaker 1: really understand how decentralized networks like Solana can be the
Speaker 1: future of finance and the home of on chain finance
Speaker 1: and internet capital markets. And the way we do that.
Speaker 1: We have a really terrific gr lead on our team
Speaker 1: in Colin He is on the hill constantly meeting with
Speaker 1: lawmakers and their staff to help to educate them about
Speaker 1: issues that are important, whether it's with market structure, whether
Speaker 1: it's with tax which may be a subject of discussion today,
Speaker 1: making sure they really understand our position and really understand
Speaker 1: the implications of what may happen if we don't get
Speaker 1: certain fixes in certain ways. And on the other side,
Speaker 1: we also work with regulators, whether it's through meetings or
Speaker 1: letters that we write, comment letters to questions that they
Speaker 1: send out, or potential rule makings. We like to make
Speaker 1: sure that we're engaging proactively with them on issues that
Speaker 1: may matter to the Salona ecosystem as well. And third,
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I didn't say we're also
Speaker 1: active in providing supportive briefing and litigation as well, because
Speaker 1: there is we are in a different world, but there
Speaker 1: is still private litigation that's happening out there, and that
Speaker 1: is one other way where we're able to help influence
Speaker 1: the discussion with additional sort of briefing and things like that.
Speaker 1: So it's really a multi tiered approach.
Speaker 2: Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of
Speaker 2: the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if
Speaker 2: you can please support the podcast by hitting the like
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Speaker 2: the five star rating. I'll let you get back to
Speaker 2: the content. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's really great,
Speaker 2: and so it's so much needed. Right, we still have
Speaker 2: work to do, even though we're not in the gainswered
Speaker 2: era anymore. There's still a lot of rulemaking it needs
Speaker 2: to be done and making sure the regulators get it right,
Speaker 2: get the balance right, because there's folks who are still
Speaker 2: fighting stable coin yeld de five. We'll talk a bit
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: We thought we were done with it, but you know,
Speaker 1: what's dead is alive again.
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Now you brought up tax right, and
Speaker 2: I think it's important to have this conversation because there's
Speaker 2: still a lot of ambiguity here as it relates to taxes,
Speaker 2: and I believe it's one of the pillars that once
Speaker 2: we figure it out, it will help boost adoption of
Speaker 2: blockchain networks and crypto assets. So tell us where we're
Speaker 2: at as far as legislation and guidance in getting that
Speaker 2: No Center Lumus and some folks that put out guidance,
Speaker 2: but it's not law yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you really hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the head there with tax and the complexities around tax
Speaker 1: and crypto for just ordinary transactions being a real gating
Speaker 1: issue to folks adopting crypto at a larger scale. If
Speaker 1: you think I think about tax in general, it's never
Speaker 1: something that people are excited to talk about or deal with.
Speaker 1: It's not like we're celebrating February or April fifteenth every
Speaker 1: time it comes around each year. And so when you
Speaker 1: mix something that's already an unpleasant experience with the complexities
Speaker 1: of just transacting in crypto and how many taxable events
Speaker 1: may be associated with just one swap or one purchase,
Speaker 1: it starts to really make sense why that needs to
Speaker 1: be solved in order for some people to feel more
Speaker 1: comfortable transacting yptos, staking their assets, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1: And at SPI we are we are looking forward and
Speaker 1: are huge proponents of potential bipartisan legislation that may fix
Speaker 1: some of those big pain points, which we'll probably get
Speaker 1: into and a little bit more detail. One of them
Speaker 1: largely around staking and how we can make that much
Speaker 1: easier for individuals in the US to help to secure
Speaker 1: proof of steak networks and also deminimous exemptions so small
Speaker 1: personal transactions don't turn into big headaches come tax day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great point because myself, I personally steak.
Speaker 2: I have a salon. I'm staking eth as well, and
Speaker 2: it earned those rewards. I'm not cashing it out because
Speaker 2: I believe in crypto long term. It's just you know,
Speaker 2: piling up and pooling in my account. But I want
Speaker 2: to I don't want to be taxed on that because
Speaker 2: I'm not spending it, I'm not using it. I wish
Speaker 2: there was guidance around that, and you know, I often have.
Speaker 2: We were talking about the recording conversations with my account
Speaker 2: and he's like, I don't know what to do with this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's a real it's a real point, and
Speaker 1: we should be promoting policies that allow everyday Americans to
Speaker 1: stake their assets in a way that makes sense. So
Speaker 1: when you think about, you know, what is we're staking
Speaker 1: in order to secure a network, and a byproduct of
Speaker 1: that are newly generated tokens, things that have are programmatically
Speaker 1: created from software. And the way that that's tax now
Speaker 1: is actually the IRS will say it's taxed upon receipt,
Speaker 1: which is a word that's doing a lot of work there,
Speaker 1: But it basically means once you have control over it,
Speaker 1: and you know you say you stake on Solana, that
Speaker 1: means you know, those those newly created tokens happen. Those
Speaker 1: events happen every two or three days on ethereum, I
Speaker 1: think it's like every six and a half minutes. And
Speaker 1: under that current guidance, that means you have hundreds thousands
Speaker 1: of transactions that you have to keep track of as
Speaker 1: a taxpayer every single year, and you have to know
Speaker 1: what was the fair market value of the asset at
Speaker 1: the time, like how much of it did I get?
Speaker 1: And if you ever want to use that, you're going
Speaker 1: to have to track the cost of every single one
Speaker 1: of those teeny tiny amounts toward whatever however you dispose
Speaker 1: of the asset. So it is an administrability nightmare in
Speaker 1: its current form.
Speaker 2: Is there any of this that is being addressed in
Speaker 2: the Clarity Act or is it it's completely separate.
Speaker 1: So this is not that tax legislation is really moving
Speaker 1: on a different track than the Clarity Act, and that
Speaker 1: makes sense. The Clarity Act is already a very all encompassing,
Speaker 1: complicated bill, and I think appending tax reform to that
Speaker 1: would probably be just introduce an additional level of difficulty
Speaker 1: and complexity. But it is the people in Congress, and
Speaker 1: there's members of their staff work incredibly hard, and it
Speaker 1: is something that now I've been able to see firsthand
Speaker 1: in a way that I didn't necessarily in my prior roles.
Speaker 1: They have hundreds of issues that are on their plates
Speaker 1: at any given time, but they devote so much time
Speaker 1: and effort to meeting with folks like SPI, folks at
Speaker 1: the Bigcoin Policy Institute, Coin Center, everyone who's working on
Speaker 1: trying to promote sensible tax policy. And and kudos to
Speaker 1: them because I don't know how they have the hours
Speaker 1: in the day to be able to do all of this,
Speaker 1: but they are really really looking at this, you know,
Speaker 1: on a separate track, even in light of all the
Speaker 1: other work that they're doing.
Speaker 2: So do you believe that once the Clarity Act is
Speaker 2: in place, the next you know thing that we need
Speaker 2: to tackle is taxes, that that would be maybe the
Speaker 2: major issue.
Speaker 1: After at I think that that taxes is the next
Speaker 1: big issue that people will realize because of that, that
Speaker 1: gating and adoption issue. But there it actually there are
Speaker 1: things that can be done right now on the the
Speaker 1: on the agency level that don't even necessarily require a
Speaker 1: legislative fix. And so one example of that when we
Speaker 1: were just talking about staking. The reason that those newly
Speaker 1: created tokens are taxed in the way that they are
Speaker 1: is because there is a piece of IRS guidance that
Speaker 1: was introduced in twenty twenty three that says as much.
Speaker 1: But it's IRS guidance. It's not a rule, it's not
Speaker 1: a statute, And so with the stroke of a pen,
Speaker 1: the right folks that the IRS could really really sort
Speaker 1: of ease the burden for everyday Americans when it comes
Speaker 1: to the at least the newly created tokens that arise
Speaker 1: from staking. And so, yes, legislation and that is a
Speaker 1: huge focus to make sure we get that done, but
Speaker 1: there are even interim steps because legislation is hard, legislation
Speaker 1: is a long process. There are other things that can
Speaker 1: be done to give taxpayers a little bit of relief
Speaker 1: in the meantime.
Speaker 2: Is the crux of the issue with the RUS that
Speaker 2: they're classifying it as property versus currency. And I know
Speaker 2: there is many moving parts here, but is that the
Speaker 2: foundational issue?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So that is Ever since the IRS came out
Speaker 1: with a pretty long statement about this in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: that has been the baseline, that crypto is taxed as property.
Speaker 1: And as we know, there are a lot of different
Speaker 1: uses for crypto. It can be used as a means
Speaker 1: for payment, it can be used as an investment. And
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the case that every one of those
Speaker 1: rules that's aligned with how property is treated from a
Speaker 1: tax standpoint makes a ton of sense when you're looking
Speaker 1: at crypto. And if you just think about sort of
Speaker 1: an easy example that can teach you, it can take
Speaker 1: us through how difficult it is. If I just if
Speaker 1: I'm programmatically purchasing one Soul token every month, so I'm
Speaker 1: a long term investor, I want sold January first, by one,
Speaker 1: February second, buy one. Maybe I want to buy something
Speaker 1: on February fifth and swap some of that SOUL for
Speaker 1: USDC so I can make a purchase. The number of
Speaker 1: taxable events that just have but right there, from something
Speaker 1: simple is is so complex And then when you add
Speaker 1: on there are gas fees that you are going to
Speaker 1: have to pay where you where you have to recognize
Speaker 1: a gain or a loss on fractions of a cent. Potentially,
Speaker 1: it just it just becomes, as we said, an administrability
Speaker 1: nightmare and goes back to that point of if I'm
Speaker 1: just an average an average consumer who wants to use
Speaker 1: my USDC or my bitcoin to buy, you know, coffee
Speaker 1: or something at a shop, probably just going to use
Speaker 1: my car if I'm going to hit you know, eight
Speaker 1: taxable events in the course of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much friction there, and you mentioned like
Speaker 2: a barrier to adoption because, uh, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: folks who are long term crypto holders, but they may
Speaker 2: want to spend a few satoshi's here if you soul tokens,
Speaker 2: whatever it may be. They want to buy something, but
Speaker 2: they can't their roadblocks so they can't there's a big
Speaker 2: utilization that's blocked or they can't access with their assets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they either they they can't or they just don't.
Speaker 1: They don't want to figure out how it's how they
Speaker 1: can do it. And that really is our goal if
Speaker 1: we are if we are going to to really realize
Speaker 1: the full potential of this technology. People need to be
Speaker 1: comfortable using it and transacting in it and investing and staking,
Speaker 1: and we just aren't aren't quite there yet, but but
Speaker 1: we can be in We're all working in that direction.
Speaker 2: So Patrick, if you're running the IRIS, what would be
Speaker 2: your solutions, the ideal solution you know that you would implement.
Speaker 1: So I think for staking in particular, let's take take
Speaker 1: that first. You know, it doesn't it doesn't make sense
Speaker 1: that a newly created asset, like a newly minted token
Speaker 1: that arises from staking, is treated as income once that is,
Speaker 1: once that sort of hits your wallet. That is different
Speaker 1: from how the IRIS treats all other newly created property
Speaker 1: under the Internal Revenue Code. So if you think, you
Speaker 1: know you're a farmer and you're on on the farm
Speaker 1: in one of your you know, one of your animals
Speaker 1: gives birth, the IRS doesn't come up behind you and say, hey,
Speaker 1: that's five hundred dollars right there. If you're going through
Speaker 1: you're a minor, and you real physical minor, not bitcoin minor.
Speaker 1: But the same concepts for all this apply to bitcoin
Speaker 1: mining as well. You pick something out of the ground. Again,
Speaker 1: no one is there it to tax you on what
Speaker 1: you have chosen. It is taxed when it is sold.
Speaker 1: And so the most logical fix is to just treat
Speaker 1: newly created staking rewards like you treat all other newly
Speaker 1: created assets. And that means that they're taxed once they
Speaker 1: are sold. And that is the point at which it
Speaker 1: means that you would owe tax potentially on what that is.
Speaker 1: But it makes a lot more sense than the current
Speaker 1: the current environment, and you can also align that with
Speaker 1: how your soul or whatever it is you're holding on
Speaker 1: to is treated. So it's a capital asset subject to
Speaker 1: potential capital gains or losses if you're holding it long term.
Speaker 1: Why should that be different for new created tokens from staking?
Speaker 1: They should theyre the same asset being used in a
Speaker 1: similar way by the taxpayer. They should be treated the same.
Speaker 1: And so that I think is the fix in my mind,
Speaker 1: or at least part of the fix in my mind,
Speaker 1: for the newly created tokens that arise from staking.
Speaker 2: And when it comes to spending, you know, do you
Speaker 2: think that the threshold should be anything below a thousand
Speaker 2: bucks non taxable event, but above a thousand maybe there's
Speaker 2: a taxable event.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're getting to what there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of discussion about recently, which is called the deminimous exemption,
Speaker 1: And for everyone who doesn't speak Latin, that just means that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a small transaction carve out from having
Speaker 1: to claim taxable gains and taxable losses. And again, I
Speaker 1: just kind of think of this as small transactions shouldn't
Speaker 1: turn into a big headache for you come tax time.
Speaker 1: And we do see that there is currently no exemption
Speaker 1: like that in crypto. So that's why when we were
Speaker 1: talking about those gas fees. You do have to pay
Speaker 1: a gain or loss on whatever however you're disposing of that.
Speaker 1: And there are examples of how this applies in other
Speaker 1: context and works just fine. For example, are going to
Speaker 1: a foreign country and you convert some of your US
Speaker 1: dollars to a foreign currency. You come back, you got
Speaker 1: some leftover trade back in for US dollars. The RS
Speaker 1: doesn't come after you for a fractional gain or loss
Speaker 1: depending on changes in currency fluctuation. And we think that
Speaker 1: same concept can be easily applied to crypto as well.
Speaker 1: And I think the things we want to keep in
Speaker 1: mind there too, are that a stable coin only solution
Speaker 1: for that kind of exemption doesn't get us all of
Speaker 1: the way there, because the economic reality, as you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: is people can use other assets to make purchases as well,
Speaker 1: and we do want to make sure the tiniest transactions
Speaker 1: like gas fees are something that's covered like that. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of discussion about what levels of exemptions
Speaker 1: may apply for some personal purchases, and I think we
Speaker 1: keep those core principles in mind that it should be
Speaker 1: sort of asset agnostic and make sure that it covers
Speaker 1: personal purchases and gas fees.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense and a rookie question here.
Speaker 2: So let's say I'm on coinbase, I have some solanam
Speaker 2: and I want to make a purchase. There's a merchant
Speaker 2: that accepts that salanum, and that's kind of the general
Speaker 2: transactions that could take place today or tomorrow. But what
Speaker 2: DeFi becomes more prominent and I'm not going through a
Speaker 2: centralized exchange where maybe the reporting and stuff, but I'm
Speaker 2: going through a DeFi protocol. Does the same rule apply
Speaker 2: or would we need different rules for DeFi?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think a lot of a lot of the
Speaker 1: work and it's currently that way today is on taxpayers
Speaker 1: to understand and put together what their obligations are. I
Speaker 1: do think there is a recognition in Congress that DeFi
Speaker 1: is different and presents presents sort of distinct use cases.
Speaker 1: We saw the best example of that with congressional action
Speaker 1: from last year when Congress worked to overturn an IRS
Speaker 1: rule that was passed back in twenty twenty four. I
Speaker 1: think it was like December thirtieth, twenty twenty four. It
Speaker 1: was really on their way out the door this thing
Speaker 1: called the DeFi Broker Rule, and the DeFi broker rule
Speaker 1: basically said, hey, if you're a DeFi front end, then
Speaker 1: you are going to be required to provide information about
Speaker 1: transactions using your front end to the IRS. But what
Speaker 1: does that mean. It means someone's name, it means someone's
Speaker 1: Social Security number, it means their address, and all sorts
Speaker 1: of information that DeFi front ends are not particularly well
Speaker 1: situated to be collecting, and honestly, I don't think want
Speaker 1: to collect that information in the first place. And to
Speaker 1: their credit, when the new Congress came in in beginning
Speaker 1: of last year, they recognize the problem on a bipartisan
Speaker 1: basis and moved really fairly quickly legislation through that nullified
Speaker 1: that rule, and a byproduct of that is that it
Speaker 1: can't really come back into place unless Congress is the
Speaker 1: one that does that. So I think there is that
Speaker 1: real recognition that whatever the irs and whatever tax rules
Speaker 1: are are in place needs to match what the capability
Speaker 1: is of the technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I look, I understand the regulators are going
Speaker 2: to have a tough time. This technology is moving at
Speaker 2: a rapid pace. There's so many moving parts and components.
Speaker 2: But I hope you know, with the help of the
Speaker 2: Salona Policy Institute, they take the time to get educated
Speaker 2: and understand all the complexities here and find the right balance.
Speaker 2: I think balance is important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about balance, and we are it is
Speaker 1: very encouraging people want to talk about tax right now
Speaker 1: in addition to all of the other issues that touch
Speaker 1: on crypto and blockchain technology. As I mentioned before, the
Speaker 1: staffers of the congressional and on the regulatory level are
Speaker 1: engaged and they are interested in learning about this and
Speaker 1: making sure we come to solutions that make sense.
Speaker 2: Now, we talked a good amount about kind of the
Speaker 2: retail perspective in how you know the taxes will fit
Speaker 2: into that. Our institutions also asking you guys for guidance.
Speaker 2: He like digital astic treasury companies, we're putting crypto in
Speaker 2: our balance sheet, we may want to do things with
Speaker 2: DeFi or whatever it may be. Are they also kind
Speaker 2: of like, hey, what's going on? Scratching their heads?
Speaker 1: I think that they're in a better situation to understand
Speaker 1: their obligations than sort of the everyday users who are
Speaker 1: concerned with, you know, with logging all of their transactions
Speaker 1: and understanding every staking event and what that may mean
Speaker 1: for them. I do think that it is obviously as
Speaker 1: institutions are adopting more and more, they are seeking the
Speaker 1: same kind of clarity for their use of the technology
Speaker 1: as everyone else is generally in the industry, And so
Speaker 1: I do think, you know, there are there are certainly
Speaker 1: ways where in the Clarity Act and other regulations where
Speaker 1: institutions are getting more comfortable with touching crypto, whether it's
Speaker 1: through no action letters or seeing certain sections of clarity
Speaker 1: where it would give them additional guidance and comfort on
Speaker 1: using it. But I do think we're all we're all
Speaker 1: marching in the same direction where we want to make
Speaker 1: it easier for both institutions and individuals to adopt this technology.
Speaker 2: And I want to make sure I hit on this
Speaker 2: because and I think you may have alluded to it earlier,
Speaker 2: the Parody Act that's in the House. There's a draft.
Speaker 2: I believe that's a crypto tax reform. What can you
Speaker 2: tell us about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, first off, I have to say the Parity Act
Speaker 1: is it y not ody parody, And just to just
Speaker 1: to clear that up, to make sure there's no misconception
Speaker 1: it is. I think has one of the best names
Speaker 1: and acronyms for any bill because all crypto tax is
Speaker 1: not looking for special treatment when it comes to taxation.
Speaker 1: We are looking for that parody to be on par
Speaker 1: with similar uses for similar assets and similar circumstances. And
Speaker 1: again we are this is a bipartisan discussion draft and
Speaker 1: we are hugely supportive of putting forth and moving through
Speaker 1: like bipartisan legislation, and really are grateful to both Representatives Miller,
Speaker 1: Representative Horsford and all of their staff who are continuing
Speaker 1: to meet with all of us here our feedback on
Speaker 1: the legislation. It's not just SPI, you know, they're listening
Speaker 1: to everyone out there and they're really working to make
Speaker 1: sure they get something that works. And we're super grateful
Speaker 1: for that starting point.
Speaker 2: That's really great, and the House has had an excellent
Speaker 2: track record when it comes to legislation that you were
Speaker 2: able to get FIT twenty one, of course, the Genius
Speaker 2: Act and all those things before it eventually went to
Speaker 2: the Senate. So that's really great, and I'm happy to
Speaker 2: hear that the House is again is the ball rolling
Speaker 2: here and if history piece as it did with the
Speaker 2: FIT twenty one and the other bills, maybe this can
Speaker 2: make its way to the Senate theater this year.
Speaker 1: Knock on wood, Yeah, knocking wood. There's a lot to do,
Speaker 1: but as we mentioned earlier, they know there are they
Speaker 1: can do many things at once, and I don't know
Speaker 1: how they do it, but they managed to. They work
Speaker 1: very very hard, and we are hoping that we can
Speaker 1: get there and get some sort of workable, workable tax
Speaker 1: legislation in place really as fast as.
Speaker 2: Possible now, something that's been happening lately a good thing.
Speaker 2: While the Clarity Act, you know, it's making its way
Speaker 2: through the Senate, the SEC and the CFTC have been
Speaker 2: putting out guidance. Can the Treasury also do that while
Speaker 2: bills like this are being sorted out, can they give
Speaker 2: some sort of relief, so to speak, or temporary guidance
Speaker 2: to the industry.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that we mentioned or
Speaker 1: we were talking through earlier is that guidance that's around staking.
Speaker 1: There is some guidance that that Treasury is able to
Speaker 1: put through that that would create some sort of relief
Speaker 1: for taxpayers. But the important thing to remember is that
Speaker 1: we want something durable. We want to make sure that
Speaker 1: we're not setting ourselves up for reversal of really really
Speaker 1: positive and forward moving policies in the space that regulators
Speaker 1: have enacted. So that's the importance of additional legislation, and
Speaker 1: that's why everyone are pleased to see all of all
Speaker 1: of the progress that's been made from all of these agencies.
Speaker 1: But that's the importance of durable legislation. It's very hard
Speaker 1: to walk back legislation. So that's why our focus really
Speaker 1: is on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great point. And I know I'm taking
Speaker 2: shots of Gary Gains here, but he was just on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg I believe, I don't know this week or last week,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, wait a minute, what's he still doing
Speaker 2: around talking about crypto And it's like another administration can
Speaker 2: come in and if we don't have the legislation in
Speaker 2: play state, they well they could roll it back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is also important to think about the
Speaker 1: legislation is not it. Rules are also are also a
Speaker 1: durable way to get to get to move things forward.
Speaker 1: And I think we were all incredibly excited you mentioned
Speaker 1: former chair Genzler. I think we're all very excited to
Speaker 1: see the token taxonomy that came out of the from
Speaker 1: the SEC and CFTC jointly. Was it last week or
Speaker 1: the week before. There's just so much there's so much
Speaker 1: news happening from the agencies all the time now, and
Speaker 1: that is something that people have been waiting for since
Speaker 1: before I even joined the industry. And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us have seen you know, Solana, bitcoin eth
Speaker 1: We all understood those to be digital commodities, but it's
Speaker 1: very different for the SEC and the CFTC to both
Speaker 1: come out and say that. And I don't think we
Speaker 1: can understate the importance of that, and also the other
Speaker 1: things that were in that document. It wasn't just token taxonomy.
Speaker 1: There was also a really interesting part at the end
Speaker 1: that was describing how staking is not a securities offering, right,
Speaker 1: and that's hugely important. Still people have sort of put
Speaker 1: that out of their mind because the SEC dropped their cases,
Speaker 1: but there are still states that are going after companies
Speaker 1: like Coinbase for offering staking services. And this guidance is
Speaker 1: super clear, has a reasoned explanation for why something like staking,
Speaker 1: even when you add ancillary services on top of it,
Speaker 1: is not a security is offering. And I just I
Speaker 1: couldn't applaud more of the work jointly of the SEC
Speaker 1: and the CFTC on that and so many other things
Speaker 1: that they've been working on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible guidance. I mean I read through it and
Speaker 2: then the four categories for tokens and it's a breath
Speaker 2: of pressure. It's something we've been waiting for for a
Speaker 2: long time. Yeah. And I remember having early conversations with
Speaker 2: SEC Commissioner Has the person, you know, she was advocating
Speaker 2: and like, hey, we got to get this out and
Speaker 2: the SEC could have done it, but of course, you know,
Speaker 2: previous administration we're roadblocking that. But it's just like, wow,
Speaker 2: finally we got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is great, it is. It is so promising
Speaker 1: to see that and not only you know, I think
Speaker 1: on the same day Cherak and delivers a speech focused
Speaker 1: on potential fundraising pathways in the future, and I don't
Speaker 1: know how they how they have time to do all
Speaker 1: of this work. It's it's really a ton happening over
Speaker 1: there at the SEC and the the some sort of
Speaker 1: clarity from the SEC about how token projects can raise
Speaker 1: funds or how products can use use tokens to raise
Speaker 1: funds is another thing that's that's long overdue and can
Speaker 1: really unlock the ability of developers and younger companies to
Speaker 1: have access to capital that they never did before. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of promising things coming out of there, for sure.
Speaker 2: Another rookie question because I don't understand the complexities of
Speaker 2: all of it. But so the SEC put out this guidance,
Speaker 2: which is great. The Clarity Act itself hasn't passed been
Speaker 2: passing the Senate yet. Is the goal eventually to move
Speaker 2: what the SEC put together into the Claritiac or it
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily have to do it as long as I
Speaker 2: don't know. The Claritiac is the macro overarching uh nail
Speaker 2: that's holding it all down. I don't know how does
Speaker 2: that work?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think cher Atkins did a really great job
Speaker 1: at describing how this is this is sort of lowercase
Speaker 1: C clarity and the bridge to clarity capital capital C
Speaker 1: in market structure and what just sort of zooming out
Speaker 1: the framework of how the legislation fits in. Like the
Speaker 1: legislation is always going to be broader, it's always you know,
Speaker 1: sort of the framework of what's supposed to happen. And
Speaker 1: then they delegate quite often rule making to each of
Speaker 1: the agencies. And so this is an example of you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's guidance right now, but it is something
Speaker 1: that could be turned into a more formal and a
Speaker 1: more durable rule from the SEC. I don't know that,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that the Senate is going
Speaker 1: to import wholesale like a document that this law is
Speaker 1: this long into a clarity Act, but they certainly will.
Speaker 1: They provide the principles, and then the agencies themselves right
Speaker 1: sort of the implementing rules and regulations, and that may
Speaker 1: be something that we would see in the future.
Speaker 2: Interesting, So they kind of maybe just reference that document,
Speaker 2: not to put the entire medium potatoes of it in there,
Speaker 2: just saying what's outline in this guidance in the SEC
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they Yeah, the Clarity Act does a great
Speaker 1: job and explain sort of what what the differences and
Speaker 1: the jurisdiction are with the CFTC and the SEC, and
Speaker 1: and when tokens may have to make disclosures. And that's
Speaker 1: absolutely something they can do is say, Okay, the SEC
Speaker 1: has authority now or should make rules to further, you know,
Speaker 1: to further clarify token taxonomy of securities and commodities. And
Speaker 1: I think that's you know, that's this guidance is a
Speaker 1: great start. The SEC has asked for and is welcoming
Speaker 1: comments on those, and I think they are going to
Speaker 1: be you know, everyone's super pleased with where it is,
Speaker 1: but there may be upon further reflection, maybe comments that
Speaker 1: folks make that makes it even better in the future.
Speaker 2: So Patrick, we're recording this on March twenty six. March
Speaker 2: twenty six, and the folks that in Congress had a
Speaker 2: hearing on tokenization and there's a huge tokenization and raise
Speaker 2: happen with all they tradfy Wall Street firms getting on
Speaker 2: board looking to go twenty four to seven. Part of
Speaker 2: the SEC guidance. One of the elements that we just
Speaker 2: alluded to was that tokenized securities will remain as securities.
Speaker 2: Does that change anything on the tax front.
Speaker 1: Or is just the status quo? I think, look, look,
Speaker 1: seeing how far we have come on the issues of tokenization.
Speaker 1: The fact that there is a hearing in front of
Speaker 1: the House Financial Services Commission on tokenization is huge. Again,
Speaker 1: cannot understate the progress that's been made there. And I
Speaker 1: think what you're talking about also highlights one of the
Speaker 1: one of the issues that's that's present with tax regardless
Speaker 1: of whether you are dealing with a security or a commodity,
Speaker 1: and that's that deminimus exemption for gas fees. Because however
Speaker 1: you're treating securities from the tax perspective as the underlying instrument,
Speaker 1: and how securities are already taxed, there is still that
Speaker 1: additional issue with that gas fee that's not going to
Speaker 1: be solved in any way by you know, rightfully saying
Speaker 1: that a security is a security if some sort of
Speaker 1: action is happening on chain, there's more than just that security.
Speaker 1: There is that you know, that additional gas fee that
Speaker 1: goes along with it that we need to be concerned about.
Speaker 1: Ah So, see, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2: I ask you that question because I didn't think of
Speaker 2: that the gas v component in tokenize assets, it's always complicated. Y. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's great, great insight. So we have a lot to
Speaker 2: figure out. And I'm sure these institutions that are tokenizing
Speaker 2: they don't want those answers like what, you know, what
Speaker 2: are we liable for? Or you know as far as
Speaker 2: taxes and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, everyone everyone is. Everyone wants clarity. Everyone wants
Speaker 1: to understand what their rights and their obligations are with
Speaker 1: respect to using and transacting in these assets. And that's
Speaker 1: that's again, as we discussed earlier, keeps coming back to
Speaker 1: how can we make this easier for folks to adopt crypto?
Speaker 1: Can we make it easier for people to want to
Speaker 1: build in the United States? And this is a critical issue.
Speaker 2: Something else on the tax one that I've been thinking
Speaker 2: of with assets running on chain, blockchains that are globally distributed, right,
Speaker 2: it's not a US market, it is a global market.
Speaker 2: What happens if I'm doing things outside the country not illegal,
Speaker 2: but just I travel. You kind of gave the currency
Speaker 2: example earlier and buying and selling outside coming back in
Speaker 2: and then there may be other laws that are rules
Speaker 2: around this. But it is also is that also taking
Speaker 2: into consideration for taxes.
Speaker 1: It's a really great question, and one of the key
Speaker 1: fixes I think that we should be focusing on is
Speaker 1: exactly what you're talking about, the sourcing of whatever the
Speaker 1: tax obligation is. Because I think the most common sense view,
Speaker 1: and the one that makes no sense to me, is
Speaker 1: that me, as the taxpayer, that obligation is source to me.
Speaker 1: Where am I not? Where is the technology that I'm using?
Speaker 1: Because the last thing that I want to do is
Speaker 1: for using a project or end that may be based
Speaker 1: somewhere out of the US, Like I don't want to
Speaker 1: end up paying tax and some foreign jurisdiction. So I
Speaker 1: think that the sourcing issue, being sort of focused on
Speaker 1: the taxpayer is what is sort of the most common
Speaker 1: sense solution to one of those one of those difficult situations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think of, Okay, the example of using myself.
Speaker 2: I have crypto acids. I want to spend some soul,
Speaker 2: right tokens, But I went down to Brazil to go
Speaker 2: hang out whatever, right, and I'm like, Hey, this merchant
Speaker 2: accepts soul and griven crypto acids. What if I transact there,
Speaker 2: I might have tax implications in the US. You know
Speaker 2: that situation. That event took place in Brazil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you look at the analog of what
Speaker 1: happens just as a traveler with cash, and how the
Speaker 1: law doesn't really concern itself with those sort of trivial transactions,
Speaker 1: the same principle makes sense to apply to crypto, it doesn't.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't want to be burdened by having
Speaker 1: to report that to the IRS, But at the same time,
Speaker 1: the IRS doesn't want to be burned. And by having
Speaker 1: you report every single one of those individual transactions for
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee or something like that, they get enough.
Speaker 1: They get enough reporting already and they don't necessarily need
Speaker 1: something like that. And that's the whole basis of thinking
Speaker 1: about the deminimus exemption. And as we see in other
Speaker 1: parts of the law, there's already a workable system that
Speaker 1: would prevent sort of absurd results like you just described.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just imagine that it will be a nightmare
Speaker 2: on both the IRIS front end user.
Speaker 1: Not one I want to deal with, Yeah.
Speaker 2: For sure. So we got to get the guidance as
Speaker 2: much needed. So I think everybody that's listening and watching
Speaker 2: you got to call up your representatives. Once we get
Speaker 2: the clarityag done and tell them Okay, now we talk
Speaker 2: about taxes.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a great idea. I think it
Speaker 1: is always that we and others in the industry who
Speaker 1: are advocating for these positions, we're in there all the time,
Speaker 1: but they also want to know that this matters to
Speaker 1: the people who live in their districts, the people who
Speaker 1: live in their states. And it does, and so I
Speaker 1: think it's really helpful. There have been other including I
Speaker 1: think Stand with Crypto very recently put out sort of
Speaker 1: a call to action about developer protections and other things
Speaker 1: that really calls on individuals who are interested to reach
Speaker 1: out to their representatives and make sure that their voice
Speaker 1: is heard, because that that matters a lot to these folks.
Speaker 1: They want to know that the voters who put them
Speaker 1: in place, or even those who disagree with them, they
Speaker 1: want to know what's on their mind and what's important
Speaker 1: to them. So I echo that totally. And there's got
Speaker 1: to be there's got to be support and vocal support
Speaker 1: for being making sure we're moving this forward in the
Speaker 1: right direction. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, let's talk stable coins. Stable coin market is heating up.
Speaker 2: I recently interviewed the folks at Western UNI who are
Speaker 2: building their stable coin on Salana, so the stable coin
Speaker 2: races on after the Genius Act pass I love earning
Speaker 2: rewards stable coin rewards on platforms like coinbased and uphold
Speaker 2: and others, but the banks don't like that. Patrick, what
Speaker 2: do you think this is about?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Is it incumbents simply saying, hey, we don't like the disruption,
Speaker 2: or we want to slow us down so we can
Speaker 2: catch up, that type of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been so much focus obviously on the yield
Speaker 1: debate recently, and we saw what was it end of
Speaker 1: last week. I think at this point where there was
Speaker 1: an agreement at least in principle reached by the primary
Speaker 1: Senate negotiators with the White House. And I don't think anyone,
Speaker 1: at least certainly we have not seen whatever the text
Speaker 1: of that compromise may be, and I think everyone is
Speaker 1: very eagerly awaiting to see what that might actually say.
Speaker 1: I do think it is important, and we're always supportive
Speaker 1: for individuals to be able to do more with their money.
Speaker 1: The trade associations and Crypto have written plenty of letters
Speaker 1: and made their cases known, and we've signed on to
Speaker 1: that too, because people should have a choice with what
Speaker 1: they want to do with their money. And I think
Speaker 1: this is like, this is subject to a negotiation. All
Speaker 1: all legislation is a negotiation, and it takes this long
Speaker 1: and it this hard because it does produce those durable
Speaker 1: results in the end, and whatever the sausage making process is,
Speaker 1: something will come out on the other side. And you
Speaker 1: are you know, we are intently watching. It's this debate,
Speaker 1: but it's not It's not it for clarity right now.
Speaker 1: There are other things that are still being actively discussed
Speaker 1: and Amando to an La from the DeFi Education Fund
Speaker 1: was on recently talking about the DeFi developer protections, the
Speaker 1: what's called Title three issues that touch on DeFi and
Speaker 1: those are hugely important, and continued conversations around making sure
Speaker 1: those stay in the bill in the way that they are.
Speaker 1: Disclosures are always are always up a hot topic as well,
Speaker 1: what's in them? Who can make them? And then something
Speaker 1: called Section five oh five is something that is is
Speaker 1: close to my heart and maybe gets a little bit
Speaker 1: less airtime. And then in the overall discussion of clarity,
Speaker 1: but it's it's the section that touches on the trading
Speaker 1: of tokenized financial instruments so those things that we were
Speaker 1: just just talking through, and there's a real concern and
Speaker 1: fear from some of us in the industry that as
Speaker 1: that was written, it could severely limit the ability of
Speaker 1: the CFTC and of the SEC to grant relief that
Speaker 1: may be appropriate from the existing rules and regulations for
Speaker 1: trading of on chain security. So that's something that I
Speaker 1: think people are a little less familiar with. Yield gets
Speaker 1: a lot of airtime, but we want to make sure
Speaker 1: that gets in the right spot too for any final bill.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And that's a great point. It's much more
Speaker 2: than yield. Is there a deep guide component and the
Speaker 2: other stuff you mentioned. So I'm so I think like
Speaker 2: everybody else, chomping at the bit Toole's see what are
Speaker 2: the details of that compromise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all waiting. So if you get it first,
Speaker 1: you got to send it our way. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Maybe by the time this ears we may have the details,
Speaker 2: but you know, we'll have to go through it a
Speaker 2: fine tooth code, make sure it's good, it's balanced.
Speaker 1: It's probably a difficult. I mean, it's so hard for
Speaker 1: you doing podcasting because the new can change so quickly
Speaker 1: as everything's moving. But we're absolutely looking forward to seeing
Speaker 1: what that is.
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, as long as we're making progress that
Speaker 2: you know, we'll find the right rules and regulation and
Speaker 2: finding that balance. That's all I care about. The seat
Speaker 2: is technology get adopted and you know, change people's lives,
Speaker 2: and not even so much here in the United States,
Speaker 2: but across the globe people who don't have access the
Speaker 2: finance and banking and this could present an opportunity for
Speaker 2: them to generate wealth and much more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the transformative nature of the technology is really what
Speaker 1: drew me in in the first place. And you're saying
Speaker 1: exactly the things that resonate with me and why I
Speaker 1: do this job. I think particularly the democratization of finance
Speaker 1: when it comes to on chain finance and tokenization of
Speaker 1: whether it's securities or derivatives or other real world assets
Speaker 1: financial instruments, that is such huge potential and it's great
Speaker 1: to see the focus on that right now, whether it's
Speaker 1: with the House or with the SEC working through what
Speaker 1: an innovation exemption might look like to allow that. It
Speaker 1: is so promising right now, and it's a really exciting
Speaker 1: time to be to be in the industry.
Speaker 2: So, Patrick, I assume your roadmap is continuing your efforts
Speaker 2: of educating the lawmakers and the folks in Congress and
Speaker 2: much more to make sure they get this right. Or
Speaker 2: is there anything else you guys are working on do
Speaker 2: you want to highlight?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's absolutely the overall thrust of all this. And
Speaker 1: I will like one other piece of news that I
Speaker 1: just want to highlight from this week actually broken at
Speaker 1: DOS when our President Kristen Smith was on stage with
Speaker 1: Cheer Selig from the CFTC. Is another opportunity for us
Speaker 1: and others in the industry to engage with the CFTC
Speaker 1: through their Innovation task Force that they're putting together. You know,
Speaker 1: seeing the huge success of the SEC's Crypto Task Force,
Speaker 1: I think it makes sense to import that same sort
Speaker 1: of idea over to the CFTC and really give the
Speaker 1: same sort of public square where people can come in
Speaker 1: transparently submit they're written materials, get meetings with them. It is.
Speaker 1: It was a great model at the SEC, and we're
Speaker 1: super excited to see that from the CFTC and really
Speaker 1: be able to engage with them. And it's led by
Speaker 1: an individual Michael Pasilokwa, who's on one of the advisors
Speaker 1: to Cheer Sea leg and he is brilliant and skill capable,
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to see what his leadership will
Speaker 1: be on that task force.
Speaker 2: It's exciting times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a new day for sure, truly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Patrick, I got some wrap up questions here for you. First,
Speaker 2: if you could create your own metaverse, what would the
Speaker 2: theme be?
Speaker 1: My understanding is that the metaverse is closing down recently. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, so I can't dodge that one then, But
Speaker 1: I think mine. Mine would just be the most relaxing
Speaker 1: place that I can be to escape. Maybe one room
Speaker 1: with a beach and another room that's the polar opposite of,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of a cabin on a mountain with
Speaker 1: snow falling and a fireplace. I just wanted to go
Speaker 1: somewhere where I can, you know, really really sit down
Speaker 1: and relax and escape.
Speaker 2: I think we're so early, and Facebook and Zuckerberg, they
Speaker 2: tried to throw a lot of money out, but too early.
Speaker 2: It's too early, Bud. We'll get there and event you
Speaker 2: don't build what you're looking for rapid fire questions.
Speaker 1: Favorite food favorite food? I think carrot cake, cream, cheese, frosting.
Speaker 2: A favorite musician or band.
Speaker 1: After I saw the Aras tours Taylor Swift, so I'm
Speaker 1: going to go with that.
Speaker 2: Well, I can probably name a lot of Taylor Shoft songs,
Speaker 2: not because I'm a fan, but my daughter, she loves
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift non stop playing it.
Speaker 1: I was not on the side until I went to
Speaker 1: that concert. And honestly, we're talking about transformative technology. Transformative concert, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: And she's her own economy by yourself exactly.
Speaker 1: It's been insane.
Speaker 2: Favorite movie.
Speaker 1: Favorite movie I think right now, I'd say Pans Labyrinth.
Speaker 1: Ever since Frankenstein have been on a Giermo del Toro kick,
Speaker 1: so those are always it's always great to watch. I
Speaker 1: have not seen it.
Speaker 2: I'll have to check that out.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: Favorite book.
Speaker 1: Their eyes were watching God.
Speaker 2: And when you're not working, what are you doing for fun?
Speaker 1: I do a lot of exploring. I'm in the West
Speaker 1: Village of Manhattan. There's always new restaurants, new places to explore,
Speaker 1: and also have expanded into the Hudson Valley as well.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of really great places. Whether it's the
Speaker 1: distilleries they have up there, are restaurants. I just love
Speaker 1: to get out there and try new things. Awesome.
Speaker 2: Well, Patrick, I'm sure we're going to have to do
Speaker 2: round two because it's not. It is a lot happening
Speaker 2: in DC, and by the time, maybe two months from now,
Speaker 2: things are going to be very different, and you know,
Speaker 2: we'll have to have you back on. But thank you
Speaker 2: so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the
Speaker 2: like button, subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're
Speaker 2: listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple,
Speaker 2: please follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much.