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True Murder with your 56 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.439 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 57 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:53.159 Good Evening. On December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, a strange 58 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.919 house in the remote mountains of northwest Georgia became a 59 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.039 bloody slaughterhouse for two men and their dogs. One of 60 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:06.159 the victims, an accomplished scientist and university professor, experimented with 61 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:10.240 the occult a self portrait found that the crime scene 62 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.240 appeared to depict the professor gagged with gunshot wounds to 63 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:19.520 his head, exactly as his body was discovered by investigators. 64 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.039 Had he gazed into the future and witnessed his own 65 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.879 death or had the painting inspired the murder. The case 66 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:32.400 became a media sensation, with allegations of satanic cults, supernatural curses, 67 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.800 and mind control experiments. The only things stranger than the 68 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:41.080 murders themselves was the legal odyssey that followed, resulting in 69 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:45.039 four Supreme Court decisions and revelations that would stun the 70 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:50.680 judicial system. After years of reachure research involving court transcripts, 71 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.319 audio recordings, and interviews with the participants in the case, 72 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:59.680 including the murderers themselves, author Daniel Ellis peals back the 73 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.919 layer of legend to reveal the truth behind one of 74 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.039 the most bizarre true crime cases ever to emerge from 75 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:09.840 the dark Southern Woods. The book that we're featuring this 76 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:14.439 evening is Corpsewood, a True Crime Like no Other, with 77 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:18.079 my special guest, journalist and author Daniel Ellis. Welcome to 78 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:21.480 the program, and thank you for greeing this interview Daniel Ellis. 79 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:24.519 Thanks Dan, and thank you for having me here. It's 80 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.160 a true honor. 81 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:31.439 Thank you very much. This is an incredible tale, quite 82 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:36.079 lengthy book, and as I mentioned to you, absolutely necessary. 83 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:42.439 This is a very very very involved case. Incredible. So 84 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:49.000 let's get right to this, maybe just briefly, how did 85 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.399 you come to want to write this, or feel the 86 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.240 need to write this, or be in a position to 87 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:59.160 write Corpsewood. Tell us how you came to this story corpse. 88 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:03.279 Would Well, I guess first a little bit about my background. 89 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.399 I am from the South. I lived in North Georgia 90 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.040 where the case happened. But after high school I moved 91 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:11.680 to Los Angeles for a number of years and I 92 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.959 worked in the film and television business. But I moved back, 93 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.680 you know, with my family, and I continued to write. 94 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.639 But one day, truly by chance, I ran into a 95 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.040 couple of people who were talking about ghost stories and 96 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.519 the supernatural, and I asked if there were any haunted 97 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:32.759 places in the area. I was just curious. I thought, well, 98 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:34.720 it might make an interesting screenplay if there was a 99 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:37.720 haunted house or something. And this person wrote down on 100 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:39.800 the piece of paper said well, here, I know of 101 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:43.199 a haunted place. And this girl wrote down the word 102 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:47.000 corpsewood and said, go and google that. And I'm like, corkswood, 103 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.480 what is that? She just google it? So I looked 104 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.000 it up and I said, well, okay, there wasn't much 105 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.360 on it. That there was a positive information back then 106 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.480 on the case. And when I learned what it was, 107 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.519 I said, well, this doesn't really intrigue me. I said, 108 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:04.480 this isn't a ghost story. This is some sort of 109 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.240 a terrible murder that happened. But I put it away 110 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:09.920 for about six months, and I came around the piece 111 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.000 of paper again and I was gonna just toss it, 112 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.319 and I don't know. Something about it kept I kept wondering, well, 113 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:19.160 these things I'm seeing on the internet, they seem to 114 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.120 be so outrageously embellished, and all these things about these 115 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.120 evil men that were murdered and all this, and I 116 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.920 want to know what the real story was. So I 117 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.759 don't know. It just it's like one of those songs 118 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.920 when you first hear it, you hate it and you go, 119 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:35.279 I don't want to hear that again. Then the more 120 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:37.199 you've listened to it, you know, there's something about this 121 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.160 that I can't stop listening to it, And after a 122 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.439 while it becomes your favorite song, you know. I'm sure 123 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.000 as a journalist you may have that sort of bug 124 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.160 that gets in you. But I started going down to 125 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.199 the courthouse where the thing happened, and I asked a 126 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.600 look at the transcripts, and of course they stacked from 127 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:58.240 forward a ceiling and I began reading, and the more 128 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:01.160 I would I would read about the truth. You know, 129 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:06.279 there were all these unanswered questions, and I started recognizing 130 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:11.040 names of people in there, like our local was superior 131 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.519 court judge down the street from me has an office. 132 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.639 He was the prosecutor back then, and our city attorney 133 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.560 was one of the defense attorneys. So I started reaching 134 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.879 out to all these people I did not know, and 135 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:27.399 I would just start bugging people of this old case. 136 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.800 And I was surprised how many of them were interested 137 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.680 in talking about it. And you know, one thing would 138 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:37.000 lead to another, and I'm sure you know from your 139 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:39.480 experience you know exactly what I mean. It's like you 140 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:41.560 just can't stop, and the more doors that get closed 141 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:46.079 in your face, the more that you want to continue. Anyway, 142 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.839 I'm sorry to be sober bose, but that's what happened. 143 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:52.759 Next thing I knew I was it was consuming a 144 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.279 lot of my life, and I was traveling to uncover 145 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:58.079 documents and talk to people far away. 146 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.279 I can certainly understand the obsession, not just for a 147 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:07.839 story once you are interested, but this story in particular. 148 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:14.079 As you do, you start off not introducing I guess 149 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:19.920 chronologically better for better lack of better term, but you 150 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.439 take us to December sixteenth, nineteen eighty two, and a 151 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:30.000 friend of doctor Scudder, Charles Scudder and Joey Odom, and 152 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:36.000 his name is Raymond Williams, and this is in Chattooga County. 153 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:40.000 Maybe you can tell us exactly where this is in 154 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:44.600 northwest Georgia. You say, surrounded by the Chattahoochee National Forest, 155 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:49.320 Chatooga County. Tell us where this is in northwest Georgia 156 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:54.159 and set the stage for what this place is really like. 157 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:58.120 And before we talk about Raymond Williams and a discovery 158 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.240 on December sixteenth, well. 159 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:05.879 Chatooka County is let's see think about the geography here 160 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.320 of the United States. There's we have what's called the 161 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:14.279 tri state area where three states come together. It's Georgia. 162 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.559 Alabama would be to the west of US and to 163 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.679 the north is Tennessee. And right here in the corner 164 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.879 of the Georgia side of it, which we called North Georgia, 165 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:32.519 but it borders Tennessee. It's very rural and at the 166 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:36.000 time the county only had twenty three thousand people, and 167 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:40.960 it's a very poor county. And that's one of the 168 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:43.200 reasons that doctor Scudder was able to purchase the land 169 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.480 that was there. He was looking for some inexpensive acres 170 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.600 of hardwood trees and he was able to buy forty 171 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.039 acres for ten five hundred dollars back in nineteen seventy five, 172 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:59.120 and it's a very depressed economy. But it's still very 173 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.559 rural to this day the area, and you know, if 174 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:06.600 the people need anything substantial, they have to drive as 175 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.000 far as Rome, Georgia. Sorry, all these pit places. It's 176 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:14.159 hard to describe without looking at a map that the 177 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:18.639 Atlanta would be around ninety miles away, ninety miles to 178 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.879 the south of Chijugu County and Tennessee. Chattanooga, Tennessee is 179 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.960 about forty miles to the north something there about. But 180 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:30.320 the area where the house was was up on the 181 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:32.799 it's in the mountains and it's an area that we 182 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:36.120 call Taylor's Ridge. It goes back really far back before 183 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.840 the Revolutionary War, you know, with the British, and it's 184 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.320 got a lot of history with Cherokee Indians and settlers. 185 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:46.720 But anyway, it's still very remote to this day. And 186 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:51.960 doctor Scudder decided to build this house up there with 187 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:57.440 no running water, electricity. He designed it himself, even though 188 00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.039 he'd never laid a brick before in his life. You know, 189 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:01.679 he'd been a university for professor. And they built the 190 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.039 strange house. It was shaped like an old passioned bathtub, 191 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.960 you know, the like the clawfoot type of bathtub. It's 192 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:12.720 in an oblong shape. And they lived off the land, 193 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:18.440 basically planted their own food. They had an herb garden. 194 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.960 It's very frugally. They dug a well and they lived. 195 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:26.559 They had mountain water. They cooked with wood stove. They 196 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.600 made candles and they recycled the wax and made new candles. 197 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.200 And they it was doctor Scudder and his partner friend 198 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.120 Joey Odam, and they had two English mastifs that they 199 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.679 had brought down from Chicago with them, and they did 200 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.480 the pretty comfortable life considering it was some people would 201 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:47.120 say it's very austere that they. You know, Scudder had 202 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:48.960 written to friends it is the happiest he had ever 203 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:51.679 been in his life. And he enjoyed it far more 204 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:53.919 than all the creature comforts that he had when he 205 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.759 lived on the West Side of Chicago, because he didn't 206 00:11:56.759 --> 00:11:59.360 have the bills to worry about anymore, and no more stress, 207 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.440 just you know, living from day to day and reading 208 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:05.639 and writing and doing his gardening, and he was always 209 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.240 building some sort of project. That the house is full 210 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:14.200 of Renaissance air antiques and so that's that was one 211 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.799 of the things that through the investigators the on December sixteenth, 212 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:22.919 when after Raymond Williams had reported seeing bullet holes in 213 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:27.799 the kitchen door and he reported to the police that 214 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.480 there was some problem. He didn't go in or anything. 215 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.519 He was afraid at least all the bullet holes in 216 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:34.240 the door. And when the Sheriff's department showed up, they'd 217 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:38.039 never been inside. They had no idea. The nearest neighbors 218 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:42.080 were something like five miles away, and even to this 219 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.600 day the roads through what there were all these unpaved 220 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.960 logging roads, very remote, and so when the Sheriff's department 221 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:50.399 came in, they didn't know what to make of this place. 222 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.559 They found the two dead men. Doctor Scudder had been 223 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.000 bound and gagged and had Evan shot in head five times. 224 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.679 Joey Odam was lying on the floor have a shirt 225 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:03.879 on and he had also been shot and they had 226 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.799 five times. And the dogs had also been shot and 227 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:12.080 killed in the study. And of course the thing that 228 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:14.240 got into the media because a lot of the law 229 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:18.320 enforcement people were they were just delivering all sorts of 230 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.200 statements just off the cuff, which you know now they 231 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.279 would be much more controlled than nineteen eighty two, it 232 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.480 was a different story. So reporters were outside and they 233 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.120 would say, oh, it's you know, they'd say, oh, it's 234 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:36.000 some they saw some homosexual literature laying on the floor. 235 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.840 Now there, it wasn't it was like erotica. It'd be 236 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:41.799 really tame stuff, you know, to us today. But it 237 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.200 was reported in the media that the house was full 238 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:49.679 of medieval weapons and bizarre sexual equipment. And doctor Scudder 239 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:51.519 had a couple of skulls in the house. He had 240 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.960 a he had a plaster or resident skull sitting on 241 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:57.720 the desk. You know, it's like the ones you'd see 242 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:00.159 back in the old days, like a classic study. He'd 243 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:01.639 seel like in an English manner. You know, you sit 244 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:03.519 in the movies all the time, and so he was 245 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:06.840 sort of he built the house for effect. So when 246 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:08.320 you come in, you think, oh, this is like a 247 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.279 set from an old hammer horror movie. You know. He 248 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.639 had the bookshelves with all sorts of books. A lot 249 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.799 of them were just used for decoration, a lot of 250 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.039 impressive looking in law books that he got at some 251 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.720 rummage sale. I had the privilege of looking at some 252 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.360 of those books someone had gotten and I that's why 253 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:23.879 I was able to look good. And I saw that 254 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.000 the pages hadn't even been cut on some of them, 255 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.200 so no one ever read these books. But there were 256 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.759 a lot of books that of course had been read, 257 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:37.320 but they were from everything you can imagine. Anyway, I'm sorry, 258 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.279 did I do interrupt me? I'm rambling on here. I 259 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.919 don't know where to stop. But that's the way they 260 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:44.480 when they did. 261 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.679 Okay, what I wanted to talk about though, despite what 262 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.879 the media said, because it's two different things. What the 263 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.559 what the police found, what the police knew, what the 264 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.320 investigation discovered, and what the media reported, and how the 265 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:03.080 media reported. So let's talk about really again, nobody had 266 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.120 seen a house like this. They really did. These two 267 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.840 people by themselves had cleared this land, and we're talking 268 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:12.120 about a very remote place, and they found a remote 269 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:15.840 place within a remote place to build this unique place. 270 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:20.200 You talk about stone stairs inside, so very much like 271 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:25.120 a castle. This and also tell us about as we 272 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.279 talked about in the beginning in the introduction, about this 273 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.919 self portrait with him gag. So I think this is 274 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.399 very important and tell us more of the actual things 275 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.759 that these people in nineteen eighty two or maybe even 276 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:42.240 people today would be not familiar with that were about 277 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:47.320 the occult that Charles Scudder and Joey Odom had in 278 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.879 this very very unique castle like building. 279 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.639 Okay, Well, one of the things that was, you know 280 00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:01.519 that's always been reported even today, was that that Scudder 281 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:06.879 had the a pentagram symbol. You know this throughout the house. 282 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.799 Two of the chimneys had ceramic uh pentagrams on it. 283 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.120 You know, the pentagram when it's made, you know, it's 284 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.679 called the pentacle. You know, the star in the circle 285 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.759 when it's upright, just like a regular five point star 286 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.120 it is, you know, it's supposed to be like well 287 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.799 they in different cultures it's considered good luck whatever. But 288 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.159 Scudder had it where the points are up, which is 289 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.120 the way that the Church of Satan laid it in 290 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:36.000 their logo. Well, what that was just it was just 291 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.519 kind of like basically they were tired and feathered with 292 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.679 Scudder odam more with this brush that they were there 293 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:46.360 were these devil worshippers, which actually was not true. The 294 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:49.759 case was that Joey Odom always maintained that he was Catholic. 295 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:51.519 He never said he had anything to do with the 296 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:54.879 accult or anything Charles Scudder. On the other hand, he 297 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.639 was always kind of a He liked his sort of 298 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.399 tweak people's noses. He did this one he was at 299 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.920 the university. His colleagues in Chicago told me that because 300 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.759 it was a very stayed, good, button down profession, you know, 301 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.559 to be in the medical field and at that university. 302 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.200 So you know, here's Scudder walking around with the white 303 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.799 lab coat and basically a clown those and making fun 304 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:18.480 of a lot of things because he didn't, you know, 305 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.200 he was a serious scientist. But he the students loved 306 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.799 them because he could relate. He would he would mess 307 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:26.640 with people in that way. But his colleague said that 308 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.160 he only did the stuff with the occult. He only 309 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:31.759 messed with you if he thought he was going to 310 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.119 offend you or ruffle your feathers. But if you were 311 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.079 in on kind of like the joke, he didn't even 312 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.680 bother with you because there's no fun. It's like an 313 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.079 adolescent boy trying to scare you with a rubber snake 314 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.880 or something. Well, what he did was when he got 315 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.799 down to Chachuga County, he of course he purposely put 316 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.799 those up on the chimneys and he made a stained 317 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:54.839 glass pentagram that he put in the house and all 318 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.759 this was of things because he Charles Stedder, he really 319 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.759 did follow a lot of the the tenets of the 320 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.119 Church of Satan. But the Church of Satan is not 321 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:04.759 what a lot of people think that it is. They 322 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.880 don't believe in a literal Satan. They don't believe in, 323 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.359 you know, they don't believe in the supernatural at all, 324 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.880 as far as beings or ghosts or that sort of thing. 325 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.000 But for Scudder and the time he grew up, that 326 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.200 was he found a lotther concepts very liberating, you know, 327 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.440 to be a gay man, and that they basically in 328 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.880 the Church of Satan, anything goes between consenting adults. So 329 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.880 he didn't actually belong to the Church of Satan's it's 330 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.799 widely reported even now on the Internet that he did. 331 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.440 He didn't because one thing he didn't he didn't want 332 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.680 to pay one hundred dollars for a lifetime membership. But 333 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.319 what he did was he paid ten dollars to get 334 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.839 their newsletter called The Cloven Hoof, so that he could 335 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:46.519 he would just read what's going on or whatever. But 336 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.119 he didn't feel like it was important to join things. 337 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.599 But what happens is Okay, this is where it's really 338 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:55.680 kind of muddy. Okay, even though he didn't he didn't 339 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.640 worship any entities or anything like that, but as a 340 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:04.480 science just he had become frustrated with what he called 341 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:09.400 ritual science, the reductionists type of things that they did 342 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.400 in the scientific field, and he began to turn to 343 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.559 metaphysical studies. And a lot of people will say, well, 344 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.960 isn't that the same thing, Well, no, it's not. He 345 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.160 I found when I was doing doing this research that 346 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.279 a lot of scientists, it's more common than I thought. 347 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:28.680 On the side, a lot of them do experiment with 348 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.400 other things. And I found that very surprising because so 349 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.319 many of them are, you know, what are called reductionists, 350 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.880 and they don't believe in anything that you can't measure 351 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:42.160 or quantify or whatever. But there was a there was 352 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:46.400 a push in Scudder's time to start studying consciousness and 353 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:50.039 what the nature of it is. And so anyway, what 354 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.559 Scutter was starting to do, you know, when I said 355 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:01.839 metaphysical studies, he was experimenting with esoteric airing is the 356 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:07.319 esoteric arts, I guess, including string, which is it's an 357 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.039 ancient it's been around, you know, forever, ancient Persia. They 358 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.559 used to use it to look into the It's like 359 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.160 you create like a viewing device using like a reflective surface. 360 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:20.960 Nostradama supposed they did it with a bowl of black 361 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.079 ink and a candle, and you put yourself in an 362 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:27.319 altered state of consciousness. And the practitioners of this sort 363 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.160 of thing say that you can see other dimensions, other worlds, 364 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:36.839 different times. And I was amazed at how common this 365 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.480 once was, and the eighteen hundreds, mirror gazing was all 366 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:45.200 the rage. I found some postcards in an antique store 367 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:49.480 where they showed a lady from the eighteen nineties and 368 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.160 looking into a mirror. And there was a myth that 369 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.200 you could if she looked into a mirror a Halloween, 370 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.920 she'd see her future husband's face or something like that. 371 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.720 And anyway, Scudder was experienting with that sort of thing. 372 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.559 He told a friend of his that I know that. 373 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.440 He said that when he was experimenting in Chicago one time, 374 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.200 would scrying to see if there's anything to it. That 375 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.640 he said he he envisioned the way he thought he 376 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:16.680 was going to die someday, and he as long as 377 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.680 he could hold the vision, he used a black mirror 378 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.160 and a candle, and he painted that portrait. That the 379 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.319 that the police found and the and the way his 380 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.359 body was found was the way it was displayed in 381 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.640 the painting. Of course, the cops don't believe in crystal 382 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:34.920 balls and this sort of thing. There their their take 383 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.039 on it from what they told me when I interviewed 384 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.960 the ones involved, and they're like, well, we're thinking that 385 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.519 some murderers saw this painting and they copied it. You know, 386 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:48.279 it was they influenced them. But when I when I 387 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.319 talked to the killers, only one of the killers had 388 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.480 been in the house before the murders, and so he's 389 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:55.559 the only one that actually knew any of the contents 390 00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:57.759 of the house. And he insisted that he never saw 391 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.519 that painting until after his trial. He said, yeah, I 392 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:01.799 know the one you're talking about it. He goes that 393 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:03.599 one was because the cops asked me about it. But 394 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.920 he goes, I swear it's just the coincidence. It just 395 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:10.759 it just happened that way. It's a conundrum, but I 396 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.200 have not found you know, like in the book, I 397 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.880 can't conclude which way it was because every when I've 398 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.400 talked to that we're involved in they're just kind of like, 399 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.799 I don't know how that came about, but Scudder is 400 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.319 several years younger in that portrait, and I have a 401 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.720