WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.359 Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gamick 2 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:07.440 person I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to 3 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:10.800 helping those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:13.960 you to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting 5 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:14.439 this show. 6 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:19.079 Here everyone, I'm really excited to be on today with 7 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:23.519 Stephen Booker, who is a therapist. We've gone to meet 8 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:27.199 a couple of months ago in one of my trauma 9 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.839 training programs. What I want to say is he has 10 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.560 a really unique way of working with clients. Super excited 11 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.159 to introduce you, Steven. Thank you for your time. Can 12 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:41.679 you tell us a little bit about about you and 13 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.439 your work? And yeah tell. 14 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:49.719 Us, yeah, thank you for having me here. Stephen Booker, 15 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.960 I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm located in Mobile, Alabama, 16 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:58.560 so bottom of the state, and I have been a 17 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:05.799 therapist for actually this month makes seventeen years. And I 18 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:09.200 love what I do, really enjoy the work that I do. 19 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.359 I've worked in community mental health, I've even found myself 20 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:17.359 in more vocational ministry, but find myself now since twenty 21 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:21.879 twelve in private practice and really focus and specialize in 22 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:26.879 the treatment of trauma. And so I am an EMDR 23 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.760 certified therapist and approved consultant, which was kind of my 24 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:36.840 introduction to really focusing on trauma, which then also opened 25 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:40.319 me up to get trained in IFS. And so I'm 26 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:46.239 a Level three IFS trained therapist, certified and also approved 27 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:52.519 clinical consultant. And then around twenty nineteen, I also started 28 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.920 working with an organization called the Islander Center that has 29 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.359 a methodology that's kind of referred to as story work, 30 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:03.519 but formally it's narrative folks is traumacare, and the focus 31 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:07.480 of that is engaging story. And so I have found 32 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:13.479 those three modalities to be really important in my personal 33 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:17.719 and professional work and have kind of brought them together 34 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.639 in a pretty integrative way and how I sit with people, And. 35 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.000 That's part of why, Like when Guy McPherson invited me, 36 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:26.280 you know, he always I've been on his podcast, Thank 37 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:31.719 you Guy. To have to invite people to come on 38 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.599 here right away, you came to mind. For those of 39 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:36.439 you who don't know me, I'll just say my name 40 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.159 is Esther Goldstein. I'm an anxiety and trauma therapist. I 41 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:44.280 run a trauma training program and I am really excited 42 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.680 about Stephen coming on because one of the things Stephen 43 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:50.599 does and offers in addition to his practice is that 44 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.719 he runs these men's retreats and on his website, I 45 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:57.879 was fascinated because it's called what's it called? The story 46 00:02:58.280 --> 00:02:58.960 What do you call it? 47 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:03.319 Yeah, we call a weekend story retreat. We've kind of 48 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:05.919 played with the name. Sometimes it's like a main story weekend. 49 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.000 But yeah, okay, so the story Retreat. And I think 50 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.879 what really made me pause is two pieces. One is 51 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.439 that I don't in terms of the men Arena in 52 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:18.960 terms of talking about like male mental health, but then 53 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.759 also the element of what does it mean to really 54 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.840 own our story? What does it mean to process our story? Obviously, Stephen, 55 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.919 you're very skilled and very trained in a lot of modalities, 56 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:29.520 and I think it takes a certain art to really 57 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.199 be able to offer an experience to clients, to tap 58 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:35.560 into a part of themselves that they have not yet 59 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.520 tapped into. So I wonder if you could tell us 60 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:40.280 my hope for today's Can you tell us a little 61 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.479 bit about what it means like to own your story 62 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:46.919 different than just kind of telling our story because people 63 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.879 could repeat their stories again and again and not feel 64 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:52.960 a shift and not actually make any progress. So what 65 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:55.120 is it if we can just dive right in, like 66 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.960 what does it mean to really own the story? And 67 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.560 if you could tell us a little bit about about 68 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:02.560 your work, and then we can look at like how 69 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.439 the storytelling really has or can transform people's traumas, anxieties 70 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:08.639 or patterns. 71 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:11.400 Yeah, thank you. Yeah. 72 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:13.840 When I hear you even say own your story, I 73 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.040 think that there's a way that we can go in 74 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.360 engage story that feels very like cut off from the neck. 75 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:22.000 It's very cerebral. 76 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.519 It's very like I just want to like understand or 77 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.279 I want to just like have some analysis of the story, 78 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:33.160 but really leaves everything that's held energetically below the neck 79 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.519 and even around the body kind of out offline and 80 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.600 disconnected from the story. And so part of owning the story, 81 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:41.759 I think is really getting close to the story. 82 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:42.439 Now. 83 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.000 Of course, like some people like it makes sense why 84 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.720 they don't want to get close to their stories, and 85 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.560 so there has to be consideration for that, like what 86 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.519 feels safe, what feels contained, what feels resourced enough to engage, 87 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.240 But it's about being able to get close to the 88 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.279 younger parts of yourself that really hold story that was 89 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.160 desperate to be tended, desperate to be attune too. I 90 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.360 think about like Peter Levine's quote about like trauma being 91 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.319 like an absence of a compassionate witness, Like it's not 92 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.560 the experience itself, it's that isolation. It's what was needed 93 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.680 that was not offered in the presence of immense pain, heartache, harm, 94 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.120 and so helping men in particular to own their story. 95 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.279 Part of that is helping them to get closer to 96 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.720 their bodies, closer to what is occurring as they tell 97 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.000 their stories in their bodies, getting curious about what is 98 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.000 their body saying in the midst of engaging those stories. 99 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.639 What kind of people? What do you find like holds 100 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.439 people back in general, maybe specifically men from coming close 101 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:48.680 to their stories, because we all want to feel whole, 102 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:53.759 we all want to feel alive. Is it that they 103 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.199 don't know how to do it? Is it that they're afraid? 104 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.920 Is it that they don't have the right facilitator? Like 105 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.759 what do you think holds people back? And then I 106 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.199 would you wonder what then, actually, what's the fire underneath 107 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.480 people that actually propels them to then reach the help 108 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.160 or to come to or retreat like yours, Like I 109 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:12.920 want to understand that process. 110 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.279 Yeah, I mean it's a really good question. I don't 111 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.279 know that I have one answer. I imagine there's probably many. 112 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.040 But what comes up for me when I think about that, 113 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:31.879 there's so much need, but there's not a lot of template, 114 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:38.240 and so like culturally, like there's a lot of especially 115 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.519 in this cultural moment, we find ourselves and there are 116 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.800 a lot of examples of really toxic masculinity, and there's 117 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.079 just not a lot of template. Is like, what does 118 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.360 it look like to engage with a more embodied telling 119 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.680 of your story? What does it look like to engage 120 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.800 and to celebrate like goodness of your masculinity and places 121 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:02.639 whether there's heartbreak or even brokenness. And so without that template, 122 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.920 I think there's just a lack of awareness or a 123 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.480 lot of shame that's just kind of dissociated or like 124 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.319 stuffed down in a way that people really want to 125 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:18.079 hold a narrative about themselves that feels maybe safer than 126 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.560 to really hold the fullness of their experiences, both like 127 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:27.000 light and shadow. In that, I think I've trailed off 128 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:28.639 a little bit from your question. Can you repeat that first? 129 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:31.120 No, No, I'm actually thinking about like you're sharing in 130 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.199 such a profound way, and I'm wondering, like, say, there's 131 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:38.319 a person listening right now, okay, any like sexual identity, 132 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:40.800 but like the and they're resonating with the concept of 133 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:43.319 like they own their story or they're aware of their 134 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.079 story and story can mean like past a belief version pain, 135 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.040 and they relate to like the cut from the neck off, 136 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:53.480 and they're disconnected from the energetic field. Like you're mentioning, 137 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.959 what would be a step someone can start taking, Like 138 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.319 what do you do on your treats? Why do people 139 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.319 reach out like give us a little bit more Like 140 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.639 I'm trying to imagine somebody comes, what give us a sample, 141 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.920 like what's their struggle and what does it actually look 142 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:15.600 like tangibly that allows them to then actually, yes, get 143 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.480 a little closer to their story. 144 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:20.720 Yeah, yeah, you know. 145 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:23.680 I mean, certainly there are some people that find me 146 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:26.600 and are really curious about the work because of maybe 147 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.839 some affiliation or connection to the Islander Center or to 148 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:31.519 internal family systems. 149 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:32.080 Work or em d R. 150 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.840 But in general, I think what often comes up is 151 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:41.360 that there's crisis or there's something that is disruptive in 152 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.840 their life and unsettling. It could be a style of 153 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.919 relating or like a character strategy that's showing up that's 154 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:55.799 becoming really problematic or costly, And there's been some curiosity 155 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:59.240 as how did this come to be? Like how did 156 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:02.759 that come to relate in this way? That is like 157 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.320 it feels like as natural as breathing, and yet it 158 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:10.720 is really creating a lot of chaos in my relationships 159 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:12.919 and in my even way of relating to myself. 160 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.440 So I think it like bring it home, like what 161 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.799 kind of samples just to the general public, what kind 162 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.519 of ways of relating are you finding that? Then people 163 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.440 are like, oh, obviously, but it's actually causing me harm. 164 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:24.000 Yeah. 165 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.960 So for example, like a a workaholic situation where like 166 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:33.320 I'm working all of these hours and I love my family, 167 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:35.960 but like I'm aware also that I find a lot 168 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:37.159 of life and work. 169 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.120 I found a lot of validation and work. 170 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:42.279 Maybe I feel more insecure in the realm of being 171 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.759 a husband or being a father or being a partner. 172 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:48.919 And so I love and want to. 173 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.480 Spend that time, and yet I keep finding myself working 174 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:55.320 sixty seventy eighty hours a week, and I'm also like 175 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.120 starting to have high blood pressure and I'm starting to 176 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.960 like my health my physical health to be impacted, and 177 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.960 so at some point I'm just trying to figure out, like, 178 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:09.200 for in this example, like what's what's happening here? Like 179 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.919 can I slow things down and zoom out a bit 180 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.240 and then begin to zoom in to find like where 181 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.480 did this begin? How did this come to be in 182 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:19.639 my world or my way of relating to the world 183 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:20.279 in myself? 184 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.320 So tell us how you walk people through the process, 185 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:25.679 because I'm wondering, like, because I at the end, I 186 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:27.440 want a better like if there's a one or two 187 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.679 tidbits or takeaways, because what I'm already starting to hear 188 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.840 is like one is, when you have a struggle, you 189 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.159 might be detached from your story, whatever that story is. 190 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.080 It could be like a loss or a pain point 191 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:42.200 or something internally that's not process right or hasn't been 192 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:45.759 given a space. So I would love to hear if 193 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:48.039 you're open. I know you do a lot of this 194 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:49.840 in individual work. I just wonder when it comes to 195 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.879 let's say a retreat, what's the process or what's the 196 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:54.600 format that people walk through. 197 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:57.080 Yeah, you just kind of want me to give you 198 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.159 like an idea of like start to finish. 199 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:02.080 Yeah, if that's a yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, 200 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:02.960 I'm happy. 201 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.480 So, so someone reaches out because there's something there's a curiosity, 202 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.399 or maybe it's like a partner that's like, you've got 203 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.080 to do something. This looks like it might be a 204 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.360 really good jumping off point, or maybe they're being referred 205 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.440 because their therapist is like maybe an intensive experience would 206 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:21.679 be really helpful to maximize some time and potential progress. 207 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.720 And so whenever they reach out, you know, I just 208 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:29.759 give them some prompts around like where's the place in 209 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.799 a formative story that feels like it still has a hold, 210 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.639 like like some like you feel kind of tangled up 211 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.279 in it in some way, and it has something that 212 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:42.639 needs engagement that you do not feel totally well with. 213 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.279 It may just be some energetic charge that still lingers there. 214 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:49.759 And so I'm not inviting people to bring like their 215 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:54.519 absolute top worst trauma. But sometimes people will take some 216 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.639 big risks in these spaces because they're really just longing 217 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:02.879 for connection and he in presence. And so that person 218 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:08.720 has given some you know, directions around writing a narrative. Typically, 219 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:12.159 you know, two to three pages is what we're looking for. 220 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.639 Too small of a narrative. Sometimes it almost feels like 221 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.120 there's a way they're not wanting to be engaged too 222 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:19.840 large of a narrative. It's like I'm just going to 223 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:21.480 take up all the space in the room and you're not. 224 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:23.720 And so like we're trying to offer a lot of 225 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.200 containment and even what they write and how they write 226 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:30.120 that narrative, and then we invite them into a very 227 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.960 first of all, like nurturing weekend. 228 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:36.879 We have someone that comes that does all. 229 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:41.120 Of the cooking, make sure that there's coffee around the clock, 230 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:46.600 that their snacks available twenty four to seven. And so 231 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.960 they come, they get settled in, they find their place 232 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:54.720 to stay, and I go first myself in the person 233 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:56.679 that I do these retreats with, and we share our 234 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.480 own stories because we don't want to invite people someplace 235 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:01.879 that we're not also willing to enter in and to 236 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.399 invite them into within our own selves. And I find 237 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.360 it's fascinating the things that still will come up in 238 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.240 these spaces with new faces and new sets of eyes 239 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.279 that are seeing my story. So it's really a beautiful experience. 240 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.320 But I will read my story and we go over 241 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.000 some like containment ideas for the group and group rules 242 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.039 and everything, and then I invite the men to engage me, 243 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.679 like what did they notice? What did they notice in 244 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.759 their bodies as I was reading? Where did they feel 245 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.480 me close to my story, like close to the emotion, 246 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.759 close to that younger self? Where do they feel me 247 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.720 kind of pull back or feel really distant? And so 248 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:43.559 through that process the invitation is too deeper, truer naming 249 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:47.480 in the story, And I think, what so much of 250 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.480 this work is in my opinion, it's just like an 251 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:53.240 invitation to grieve what hasn't been grieved or what needed 252 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.320 to be grieved and held in safety. And so that's 253 00:13:57.399 --> 00:13:59.600 kind of the first event and then the rest of 254 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:00.120 the week. 255 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.639 Weekend this is like profound Can I plase you for 256 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:04.120 a minute? 257 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:04.600 Of course? 258 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:10.039 Okay, so it's this weekend. So it's this weekend. You 259 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.919 and you have a cool facility, you have someone that 260 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.200 runs it with you. It's a group, beautiful place. Food, 261 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.279 so there's like physical nourishment as well. And the writing 262 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.360 of the story is basically think about something from your 263 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:25.879 formative years or something that is like coming in Like 264 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.720 basically you're writing a story just kind of saying the 265 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.240 story of something that feels unfinished. And kind of just 266 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:34.720 writing I just want to so, and then just writing 267 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:37.879 it out, and then writing it out is basically like 268 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.320 giving it language obviously also like giving it a word 269 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.159 and a narrative, and then you share and the other 270 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:47.120 person then do people and then they notice internally somatically 271 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.279 what's happening. And then do people go around the room 272 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.559 and share their story of what they shared so they 273 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:54.000 get that support from each other. 274 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:56.799 You mean yes, it's yes. 275 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:59.200 So throughout the weekend we have like a rotation where 276 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:01.720 everyone has about a forty five minute period where they 277 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.159 read their story and then it's engaged by the group. 278 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.279 Wow, okay, this is what I'm asking because it's almost 279 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.360 like it's not just me myself, it's me myself and 280 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.720 then others. And then there's getting that because you're essentially 281 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:18.000 saying that when we are acting in a certain way 282 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.840 or acting out or avoiding or behaving in a certain way, 283 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:23.679 there is unconsciously, tell me if I'm getting this right, 284 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.399 an untended to part or story or dynamic that has 285 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.840 been untended to. And so what you're saying is this 286 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.039 weekend or this process is the way of you getting 287 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.039 closer to that untended part that's actually bleeding out or 288 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.279 shutting down or acting at these behaviors, and so as 289 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.440 we tend to it, this will often soften, so the 290 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:47.600 symptoms will actually soften, Okay, profound, okay, carry out, Yes. 291 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:47.879 Thank you. 292 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.639 I love how you put it. And so throughout the weekend, 293 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:53.720 like that's that's what the work looks like. Now, I 294 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:59.159 we'll say, we book a very large rental on the 295 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.519 Gulf of Mexico right there overlooking the water, so like 296 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.240 there's beauty and in the midst of nourishment. Now it's 297 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.600 usually an off season, it's usually in January, and so 298 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.320 it's sometimes cold. Actually this past year wasn't that that 299 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.039 cool at all. We but you know, we have fires 300 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.879 in the evenings. We have lots of built in downtime 301 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:25.960 for reflection, for journaling, for board games and cards, resting, napping, 302 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.320 taking walts on the beach, going for the run, like 303 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.159 whatever is needed to just tend to your nervous system 304 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:33.679 and your body throughout the weekend. So it's not like 305 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.000 bam bam bam bam bam. Like we have these focused 306 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:38.480 times in the morning, and then we have a focused 307 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.440 time in the evening, and then the space before in 308 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.960 the middle in between, and then in the evening is 309 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:50.200 really just for recreation, play, taking in beauty, connecting, having, Yeah, 310 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:52.919 just points of connection with the other men that are 311 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:53.320 a part of it. 312 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.759 Yeah, I love that. And one thing I do want 313 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.600 to say is it was really important, as you mentioned 314 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:01.120 a lot of times, there's grief powerful because right they 315 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.799 talk about how like anger is a secondary motion to sadness, 316 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.519 and sadness is often grief for loss. And I find 317 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.240 it really powerful how because we act out grief if 318 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:13.839 it's ignored or pain, it's powerful. How you're seeing a 319 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:15.640 lot of us is grief and actually with the right 320 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.279 kind of compassionate witness, right, we can't avoid grief, but 321 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:23.200 we can actually process it or be with it. Okay, 322 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:24.160 carry on. 323 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.960 Yeah, And so like the whole So it starts on 324 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.680 a Thursday evening, and then we have a full day 325 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:32.880 Friday and a full day Saturday, and it's all moving 326 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.240 to a Sunday morning time. And that Sunday morning time 327 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:42.240 is really focused on affirmation and blessing and just honoring 328 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:47.279 of the men. And that is such a deeply profound time. 329 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.960 Because I learned this from a mentor of mine years ago. 330 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.039 His name is Wendell Moss, and he talked about you 331 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:58.440 can't bless what you haven't grieved what it's cost and 332 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.839 that just really likes stuff with me, because I think oftentimes, 333 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.559 like so much of our goodness, it's been really costly too. 334 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.160 It's set us up for envy, it set us up 335 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.799 for strife, it set us up for heartache or disappointment, 336 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:14.759 or consumption and exploitation. And so to be able to 337 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:19.519 honor a man in his story, you have to enter 338 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.960 into the story, and to enter into the story, you 339 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.640 have to also like join them in grieving their goodness, 340 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.599 their beauty and what that's cost them and how that 341 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.440 has been really connected in some ways to their harm 342 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.559 and their heartache. And so that time of blessing is 343 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.440 really what we're moving towards. Not that like it's the 344 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.680 ultimate pinnacle, but like it is kind of the climax 345 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:42.319 of the weekend. 346 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.440 Wow, say that sentence again, you can't bless. 347 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.000 Yeah, I'm trying to think how he puts it. 348 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:54.799 You cannot bless what you have, not what you have 349 00:18:54.920 --> 00:19:00.000 not also grieved, like what or how it has been 350 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.559 costly whatever it is that you're blessing. So like, let 351 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.480 me say it a different way to make it clear. 352 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:09.599 You can't bless goodness and beauty without also grieving what 353 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:10.759 it has cost that person. 354 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.160 Yeah, can do you give us some examples? 355 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:21.200 Yeah, I mean, for one example, like being like a 356 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:27.279 very loving, nurturing, caring person and then finding also that 357 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.759 like there's been such exploitation of that. Maybe it was 358 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:33.240 like triangulation with their parents, and then there's also like 359 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.039 envy from the other siblings because of how that person 360 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.799 found a way to get some delight, some attuments, some 361 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:46.319 connection with caretaking of a parent which was a really lovely, 362 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.279 like beautiful gift and gosh, it's been so costly. 363 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:56.480 Yeah. Aw, and give me another one, Give me another example. 364 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.559 I'm just trying to think on the fly. Let me 365 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:08.559 think of some them really quickly. Yeah. 366 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:13.039 I think about like someone's energetic presence, like they just 367 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:16.079 have a charismatic way of being in the room where 368 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:19.759 people are just drawn to them, and sometimes that can set. 369 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:19.960 Up for. 370 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.799 Like envy, like people will hate them for that because 371 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.519 they want that and they want to kill them for 372 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:29.920 the fact that they actually have that. 373 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.359 I really appreciate what you're saying because I feel like 374 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.960 what you're doing here on both levels, and like writing 375 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.200 the story and then the celebration is you're naming the 376 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.319 nuance on the layers that often we skip over. And 377 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:45.400 it's almost like I'm thinking, even, let's say somebody who's 378 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.440 a workaholic right or is very driven, and it's almost like, 379 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.079 maybe it's incredible because it helped them get out of 380 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.559 if they were raised in a very poor environment or 381 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.480 they didn't have choice points and the price point of 382 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.920 needing to build from survival has also been right, maybe 383 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.519 like anxiety or exhaustion or fear. And so it's like 384 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:09.920 I think about somebody's living in a beautiful mansion without 385 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.319 acknowledging the sleepless nights or the fights or the fear, 386 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.680 whatever it is. It's like we want tocknowledge both and 387 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.640 then you could bless it, which is what I so appreciate. 388 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.680 And a lot of yeah. 389 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:24.720 And so the thing is is that I think a 390 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.440 lot of times like it's so much easier to write 391 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:31.359 a narrative of harm, but to also find like where's 392 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:35.599 their goodness and beauty in this person in the story 393 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.519 that may actually be somehow connected to the harm that 394 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.000 they've written about, Like that that's where getting into the 395 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.279 particularity of the story and the entering into grief, so 396 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.880 that you can also like really honor and affirm that goodness. 397 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.759 Uh that that that's where I think the intersection really occurs. 398 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.480 Yeah, what do you love most about running the retreat? 399 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.799 Yeah? Oh my goodness. I mean here's the thing. It's like, 400 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.400 it's a long weekend. 401 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.000