Speaker 1: Is this ped Life Radio.
Speaker 2: Let's talk pets.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Human Animal Connection Show, where we believe
we can communicate with all animals. Join us as we
explore the thirty three principles and healing methods of the
Human Animal Connection. As animal lovers, we know that you
share our commitment to making the world a kinder place
for all creatures. Together, let's embrace the transformative healing power
of the Human Animal Connection.
Speaker 3: Welcome everyone to the Human Animal Connection. I'm so glad
you're with us because i have Deborah Jones, and she's
a PhD, a retired psychology professor who now trains animals
full time, and she's got a really interesting program. She's
been doing this over thirty years, and she focuses on
positive reinforcement methods. But what I'm so excited about is
her work on the importance of giving animals choices when
we're doing training. So we're going to really focus on
that today, because animals have feelings, too, right, and we
need to consider their feelings and not just impose a
training method on them to get some results that we
think are important. So that's really great. Well, Devorah, thank
you so much for being with us.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited.
If there's one thing I can talk about endlessly, it's
about dogs, Oh good, and dog training, And that's one
thing that never gets old. As you said, I've been
doing it for thirty some years, and every day it
feels like I learned something new. So one of those things,
it's like an area to me where you can never
know enough right, keeps it interesting. And I think that
you heard about me through a blog post that I
wrote about animals having feelings, so certainly that must have
resonated with you. Yes, that we're on the same wavelength
a little bit when we talk about that. And one
of the things I see in the course of my
career is that things are changing and people are going
From in the beginning when I was first seriously training,
formally training, probably in the early nineties, it was all
about to get the dog to do the thing. If
I could get the dog to sit or come or
stay or heal, then I was a successful dog trainer.
And just at that time there started to be this
little rift where there was a small subgroup of people
who were like, but I don't like the way that
you have to do it get the things to happen,
but it's not comfortable for me because it doesn't seem
like my dog is having a very good time with it. Yes,
that to me was like the beginning of everything that
came after with the more positive reinforcement movement. But even
then a lot of the times it was still on
folks based on the mechanics of training, not on the
relationship or the interaction that you're having with the dog.
So that to me became something that I started to
notice and focus on and realize a lot of times
what there was something missing. And the missing thing wasn't
that the dog needed more training in their skills and behaviors.
The missing thing kind of came down to this relationship. Yes,
and the dog maybe didn't really want to be there
and didn't want to do the things they were doing,
but they weren't given any options. Right Yeah, so yeah,
voice you know exactly.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if we do that to humans,
we call it slavery race, why would we want to
do that to our animals that we love so much?
And you know there's a better way, and the better
way is what we're really talking about today, and how
we can a notice first if a dog is not
enjoying it or not, or it's had enough, or it's
just tired or whatever the reason. I guess the first
step is just to notice. And then how do you
introduce choice. Let's say you have something you want to
dog to do, But how do you introduce choice?
Speaker 2: That's I think that's a good question, and it's a
big question because it's not always choice is not always
something that's clearly obvious. We have to look at those
small clues and those little subtle signs that a dog
might be giving us. And so one of the things
that I really stress, especially now in my work, is
paying such close attention to your dog's body language. Look
at they're telling us things all the time. They are
trying their hardest to communicate, and they probably think we're
pretty dense yecause don't get it, don't read it right.
And even for myself, when I go back and watch
training videos, I'm like, how could I have missed that
my dog clearly indicating that they weren't comfortable with something,
and I'm just going along like, hey, everything's fine. And
because we get the idea that because we're using cookies
and toys and we're trying to be fun that the
dog will never want to opt out or be stressed.
And I don't think that's really true. I think there's
a lot more to it. It's a lot more nuanced
than just what we're using as reinforcers. So therefore dogs
always want to work. So knowing the dog, starting to
form that relationship with them where you are paying attention,
so you can tell. Because every dog's different with their
body language, we have the universal things that the dog
puts their ears back, or that they move their tail
a certain way, or their hackles go up. Those universal
things tell me, oh, this dog is not happy to
be here. If my dog tries to leave, that's a
clear one. And I like that one. Yeah, go ahead.
And so I always give my dogs the option to leave.
They can leave a training session. I will never try
to coax them back into it. And in fact, they
will give them cookies when they leave. They leave, I'm
going to give you a cookie scatter on the floor.
I'm going to in the session because you gave me information.
You told me what we were doing was not comfortable
for you at that moment, right, right, I don't want
to punish that, right, and telling me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the next day that same thing
may be perfectly comfortable. Who knows what scent was in
the room, or what noise or what emotional dynamic with
their person could have made them get into a no mode. No,
I don't want to do this right.
Speaker 2: There's so many possibilities that we don't perceive. No, we
don't feel the things that they do. And so I
always feel like my dog can always tell me no,
and so that's that's their choice. To me. They can
always leave a session, but I'm I have to say,
I'm surprised when they do, because I work very hard
to make sure that they want to be doing what
I'm doing, and I work very hard to keep my
session short and to use reinforcers thoughtfully and carefully, and
to not push them. If I start to see those
little signs that they might be getting uncomfortable, that's when
I need to stop, not for one more repetition and
one more repetition. A friend of mine calls that testing
to destruction. If you just keep going, you know you
should stop. You do one more and that's almost always
a bad choice. So letting them stop is to me
kind of the ultimate choice, and I set up all
my sessions so that they're free to leave. You know,
they're free to opt out of the session. I will
reinforce that we will take a break, and I will
try to determine what do I need to change for
next time. Maybe, as you said, the answer might be nothing.
It might be just that day they just weren't feeling it,
they weren't feeling great. But often it's something that i've
I can change and I do differently, so I do.
I feel like that gives me a lot of power, actually,
because if I can change it, then I can make
the next session go better. Yes, I can entice my
dog into wanting to work with me. If they don't
want to be there, it's ever going to.
Speaker 3: Be good, right, right right? And sometimes do you sense
when you're doing a training that their persons maybe a
little tense or stressed or has an agenda and that
that Yeah?
Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah, it's our emotions are so tied up in it.
And especially back in the days when I was showing
in competition obedience, that's like the most stressful thing in
the world to do. I don't even know why I
put myself through it other than that at that point
in time, that was if you wanted to show a dog,
that was it. You did a confirmation or you did
competition obedience. It was even just before agility was becoming
popular in the United States, and so the nerves of that,
you know, and it would be, well, why did my
dog do it so well in training and I get
in the ring and they can't do it. It's like, well,
there's a clear reason they can't do it. But people
would get very upset with their dogs because they didn't
do in the ring and competition what they could do
in a training setting. And so I think a lot
of that is human nerves and the dogs feel that
and they feel like something dangerous is happening. Why are
you so worried? If I was walking down the street
with somebody and all of a sudden they got really
nervous and tense and started breathing strangely, I wouldn't got
like stiff in their movements. I would be concerned too,
what's wrong? There's something going on? Is there a bear somewhere?
What's happening here?
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly?
Speaker 2: So I think our dogs pick up on that so much.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we have a program called a therapy dog
program called Canines Teach Compassion, where we take the therapy
dogs into the high school and we have to teach
the kids to watch those signals, you know, because the
you know, sometimes the dog wants to snuggle and cuddle,
and sometimes the dog doesn't want to snuggle and cuddle. Yeah.
So what are some of the things that you would advise,
let's say, our heart school students to be more attending
to embodied language or behavior.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think people have this idea that somehow all
dogs will react in the same way and that all
dogs like them. Maybe they you know, maybe they do,
maybe they don't it again on any given day. Maybe
they're just not wanting that that sort of interaction. I say,
you know, stop, don't go into an animal space until
you've observed them first. Stop, take a look at the animal,
invite them into your space instead of like pushing to
get closer to them. You know, we're very handsy as humans.
We are all about putting our hands on things all
the time, and dogs are one of those we really
want to touch. I really really want to get up clothes.
We want to touch them, we want to hug them.
And for some dogs that's great, but for other dogs
that is not so good. So stiffening, I think, just
the stiffness of a dog as opposed to the looseness
of their muscles. But being able to see that that's
a minute thing. Yes, people don't know that dog. You
don't know what's normal for them. So I think there's
a lot of there should be by the handlers, a
lot of gatekeeping of you know, maybe explain this, Oh
he's you know, he's turning his head away. That means
he's not real comfortable right now, you know, So why
don't you sit on the floor over here and then
we'll walk by, or whatever the case might be. So
I think a lot of our job as trainers is
to protect our dog's emotional re bonses and to explain
to other people that that's what it is, and that
that doesn't mean the dog doesn't like them, because people
get their feelings hurt. We're used to golden retrievers who
want to be everybody's face and love you all the time,
and they're so happy, and then we come up on
dogs that are not like that, right, and that word
that makes people uncomfortable because they feel like all dogs
should be that happy, friendly dog, mythical dog that they
have in that this is normal for dogs, and to
understand that. You know, if they turn their head away,
if they put their ears back, if they put their
tail down, you know, if they gets stiff, those kinds
of things tell us that the dog is not really comfortable.
So let's back off and let the dog make the
overtures instead of us doing it. I think that in itself,
and I've always done that with animals, mostly for safety purposes.
If you are geting dottic animals or non domestic animals,
you don't go in at them like you do a
dog get away with it. You can do it, but
stupid because you want to watch to see how they're
comfortable as you close distance.
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, we had you know, one of our our
therapy dogs is a very cute King Cheryl Spaniel, you know,
just cues can be and normally wants to engage. And
his person recognized he came in yesterday and he had
come from just being with two toddlers having uh yeah,
and the dog was didn't want to interact us hung
by him under his chair. And it was a great
teaching example because normally we've seen this dog want to
engage and want to play, and that he just had
enough with the two toddlers.
Speaker 2: And I could see that, you know, you need a nap.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: It's like, yea, we pushed too much onto them. You're
going to get reactions you don't want. So we have
to watch their stress levels. And that's something I always
thought when when I did a little bit of therapy
dog work way back when, was that we're putting a
lot on the dogs here. You know, we're we're expecting
a lot, and and only certain kinds of dogs, only
certain dogs are really good at it and can consistently
do it. So even though we might want to as
a human, it's like, does the dog really want to?
Is this something to come out of feeling better than
when they went in? And for some dogs the answers yes,
and then it's like, oh, yeah, do it yeah, And
if it's.
Speaker 3: Not, yeah, Well. We had one greyhound, older older greyhound,
rescue greyhound, and she was amazing for twenty minutes. I
mean she would just look at you and you would
melt and she would stare into your eyes with this love.
Twenty minutes later she was done, and I just said
to her handler, that's okay, twenty minutes and you go home.
Speaker 2: Hey, exactly, Well, I have a social time limit too.
I could only be at a party for so long
and then I have to leave. So we should we
should understand that. That is also true of many other
animals that we have to kind of respect there. Some
of them are more sociable, some of them are more introverted,
you know. And yes, you can work on it, you
can work on socializing them, but you can't change their
basic nature. We have to just respect it, and we
shouldn't push them into sit situations where that discomfort is
going to happen over and over again. That sometimes we
make a choice not based on what we want, but
based on what's best for that animal, and that might not,
like I said, that might not be at all the
choice that we want to make. I have my youngest
dog now is an Australian Coolie named Wizard, and Wizard
is not as comfortable in public as I would like
him to be. I would like him. He likes people,
he's not at all crazy about other dogs, and he
gets very nervous out in public if there are going
to be a lot of other dogs around, and so
I'm like, how much does he really need to be
in these situations? How can I meet his needs and
keep him comfortable? And I've determined he's a dog who
likes predictability and structure much more than he likes adventure
and spontaneity. So I have had to change what I
wanted to do with him and what I thought our
relationship would be so that he would be more comfortable
on a day to day basis. So it's not always
like I said, I want him to go out in
the world with me, and I want him to go hiking,
I want him to do a lot of things, and
he's like, no, the sofa is good and my house
with the dogs I know and people that's good. Don't
ask any more of me. So sometimes we just have
to accept.
Speaker 3: That, right exactly now, it's only you know, ten or
fifteen percent of dogs that I meet that are really
destined to be therapy dogs that really thrive in that environment.
But even with those dogs, they you know, forty five
minutes to an hour once or twice a week, that's
about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, we really to think about and protect that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, wonderful. Well, we're going to take a short little
break when we come back on one, hear a story.
I know you have a story about Saber and yeah,
and about how you were able to give choice to Saber.
So would be back in just a moment.
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Speaker 1: Hey friends. If you like what you're hearing and want
to learn more, check out doctor Joseph's book The Human
Animal Connection, Deepening Relationships with Animals and ourselves, or visit
the website The Humananimalconnection dot org to book an online consultation.
Thank you for loving animals. Now back to the show.
Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on Petlifradio dot com.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Human Animal Connection. I'm Jeanie Joseph,
the executive director of the Human Animal Connection, and I'm
speaking with Deborah Jones, and she is a PhD and
a full time animal trainer working with positive choices, helping
dogs make choices and be considerate of the feelings that
they have. So tell us a story about Saber.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, the Saber story. That's sort of a pivotal
moment in my career as a trainer. I mentioned earlier
about you know, they're only being competition obedience if you
wanted to train and show a dog. And then agility
came along and agility got big, and so I got
involved with that and really really enjoyed doing agility, and
somebody contacted me about doing and private lessons because she
was having trouble with her. Shelty named Saber in agility,
and the problem was Saber would not do the dog walk.
He would bulk stop, and he loved doing agility. It
was clear he really enjoyed everything but the dog walk.
And so every time they'd get to that point, there
was all this pressure that was she was worried because
she didn't think he was going to do it, and
like one out of every ten times he'd just do it,
but then a lot of times he wouldn't, and then
they would have this kind of disconnect in the ring
and they wouldn't be able to get their teamwork back. Yeah,
and so as an outside observer I was able to
kind of think through this a little bit, because when
it's you, it's very emotional and it's like, why doesn't
my dog want to work with me? But when you're
an outside observer, you can be a little more objective.
And I said, the thing was saber was that that
pressure was so much at that moment that he just folded.
He couldn't do it, and he wanted he seemed to
really want to do it, because he had like these
false tries where he'd almost start and then he'd stop,
and then he'd second guess himself, and he was clearly
losing confidence very very quickly. And so my suggestion, and
she did take it, was don't do the dog walk,
run past it with him, don't ask him to do it.
And of course this meant a lot of entry fees
were lost because you don't do the dog walk, you
can't qualify, And so that's a little bit of a problem,
but it was just like there was so much pressure
there and he felt like he had no choice yet
he couldn't do it, and it was sort of poisoning
everything else in their training relationship. It would be worse
instead of better. So she did that and people were like,
why are you doing that? They questioned her, they would
question me, and I kept I just had faith. I
kept say saying, if we give him options, he's going
to gain his confidence back and things are going to
get better. And they did so eventually, all of a sudden,
they run by instead of running by the dog walk
with her. He took it, and he's like cool. He
was like what, And then it was just like by
taking off that pressure to perform, he actually was like, well, oh,
I can do this. But the more she pushed at
it and the harder she tried, the worse it got.
And so that to me was like giving him the
choice made all the difference. And every trainer thought that
this will never work. They're just she's wasting her money.
She shouldn't even be listening to what I'm telling her
because clearly this is very bad advice. It worked out,
and it actually kind of started me down this little
bit of a different path and training because I could see.
And not only that, but like Saber's confidence grew. He
was one of the fastest dogs out there and it
was amazing and that the only thing holding back was
he wouldn't do the dog walk, and once he would,
once he was like, oh nothing, piece of cake, got this.
Then he was an amazing agility dog after that.
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's such a fundamental respect for the
dog's emotions. It's like, you're not wrong for having this
feeling you don't want to do the dog walk. You're okay,
you know.
Speaker 2: It's like almost like you imagine running up to the
edge of a pool or the edge of a cliff
to jump into a body of water, and you just go, oh, no,
I can't do that. But if somebody keeps going, go go,
go do it, you can do it. And the more
they try, the more you resist and the more worried
you get. But if they say, okay, we'll just run
up to the edge and stop and we'll just run up,
and then one day you just go, you know what,
got it? And then once you do it, you go
I knew I could do that, and so I think
it's nice to be able to give them those kinds
of choices we can do.
Speaker 3: It's awesome. Yeah, it's it's such a beautiful new way new,
not now to last, but nude for you know, the
old way of thinking that we can that their response
is valid if it's a no, it's good, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I know the information. I always say,
it's information and it tells us that we need to
change something we're doing. So I want my dog to
tell me where we're having problems or where they are
having problems, because if they don't tell me, how do
I know? This was you know, from a lot of
old school thinking that once I tell that dog to
do something, they darn well better do it, there's no
question about that. And that was not going to work
with Saber. He was just like he just couldn't do it,
and pushing him didn't make it better.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes letting go and giving them plenty of choice, that's
the thing. I think that and then they go, oh.
Speaker 3: I can do I can do That's great, wonderful, And
what about Star? Tell us the story of Star Star?
Speaker 2: My baby Star was my border Collie. I just lost
her a little not quite a year ago, so I'm
still I'm still missing her a lot. Star was probably
the smartest dog I've ever had seen known, trained, brilliant,
she's kind of scary smart. And when she was about
a year old, she had a bad visit at event
and that was it for her. She's like, Nope, nobody's
ever touching me again. You can touch me, but only
in certain places. I'm like, wait a minute, this is
a problem. Yeah, going to be a big issue. She
was truly traumatized, and she didn't want people restraining her
in particular and holding her in particular ways and touching
her legs and feet was a complete no. I'm like,
but you know, I've never had this problem, and I
never really we never thought about the problem of a
dog that won't let you handle them a whole lot
because I just did, and my dogs all sort of
just went along with it. They might not have liked it,
but they did it. And Starr was like, no, this
is not happening. And I could see that pushing her
was making her defensive and to make her be reactive
and she would bite just because she was so stressed
about everything. So I had to go way way way back,
like to ground zero with her and decide how am
I going to get around this because I can't just
not do it. We can't not do physical care for
her when she needs it. She needs bet visits, she
needs grooming, and she wasn't really cooperating with anything when
we got started here. So I had to go back
and start to develop some ideas about how to change
how she felt about it. And I knew that going
for classical conditioning 're changing the emotional response was what
I needed to do. And so I had a lot
of work that I did there over many many years
and even up until the end where she was much better.
But I still had to make all of that all
of this time. So I started working and trying to
figure out different techniques and different approaches to get her
comfortable with being physically handled and touch because I knew
that it was going to have to happen. Yeah, And
in fact, at one point she had a corn cob
and we had two surgeries and off and she was
an emergency vets overnight, and I was so thankful I
had done all this work. This was when she was
ten years old, and the problem started when she was
a year. So I was thankful I had done all
that work all those years because it made it better.
It wasn't you know. It's like she's already bad things
are happening. At least the stress of other people handling
her isn't adding onto that. At this point in time,
it was bad enough, you know, And she was enough already.
So the point of the Star story to me is
that she actually started me down a totally different path
with training, into the idea of cooperative care of how
can I get my dog to cooperate with what I
want to do, even when that's uncomfortable for them, or
it's concerning or stressful for them, So how can I
make it all better at least tolerable? And sometimes tolerance
is the best we can hope for on some things.
It's like I tolerate the dentist, so I don't really
enjoy it, but I cooperate. I do what they tell me,
and so I want the same things for my dogs.
And when I started working in this area and talking
about it, all of a sudden, I've got all sorts
of people who, well, I can't put drops in my
dog's ear, I can't do my dog's nails, that's the
big one. I can't do nails, or you know, my
dog needs this medication and they won't take it. And
it's sort of just then ballooned into this whole area
that I started to work on. It's like, how can
we get our dogs comfortable with all these things? And
so then I went down that path because of Star
and I'm still very very deep into the area of
work now and it's something to me that it really
can improve their lives.
Speaker 3: Yes, we give.
Speaker 2: Them, I give them choice. I mentioned, you know, they
can always leave a session. They can always leave a
session when I'm working on this cooperative care, and that
tells me right away if my dog has to leave,
I'm pushing too hard. I need to back off. I
need to make things easier, shorter, sessions, more fun, better,
reinforce whatever it takes. I need to do something differently,
or I need it's not you know, I need to
back up the whole process. Like instead of touching a
dog's leg, I need to just hold up my hand
and work with that. So I started kind of developing
a lot of techniques for how I would go about
installing kind of the fundamentals of cooperative care, and I've
worked through a whole program of that now, which has
probably taken me, you know, when I think about it,
ten years altogether to really put together a comprehensive program
of how I do that, and as much as possible,
the dog gets choice at every step of the way.
That kind of they think leads us into the well,
what happens when choice isn't possible? Question? And that's a
big one because almost everybody asked me that, Well, you know,
now my dog has to go to the vet, or
they have to have surgery, or they have stitches, or
you know, I have to wrap something, or they have
to take this medication. Today, sometimes we do not have options,
and so for me, I want it to be clear
to the dog if it's a non optional event, I'm
not going to ask your permission. I'm not going to
ask for consent. I'm not going to pretend you have
a choice. There will be times when we have to
restrain you and do something to you, yes, But I
at the same time as I'm doing everything else, I'm
working on handling and restraint and I'm working on teaching
my dog the basic concept that people do all kinds
of weird stuff to your body. It's okay, they're just weird,
it's straight. Why are you sticking your finger in my mouth?
I don't know, but there's a cookie afterwards. Or why
are you putting something in my eye which is very unpleasant?
Oh I don't know, but okay, they do it, and
then I get a bunch of cookies and we're all
okay and we move on with life. So I'm teaching
them that these things are all okay, but sometimes they're
not ready and we still have to do it. So
when that's the case, when there is no choice, I
don't pretend there is okay, don't you know, it's a
whole different situation. I don't work in my usual training area.
I don't get the option of leaving, and I actually
don't even use cookies when something is going to be
possibly unpleasant and I'm just going to do it anyway,
because that can poison the cookies, and now they become
suspicious because the cookies are connected with the event that
was unpleasant. So that those are situations in real life
that happen, and we have to learn to work around them,
just like we don't always have choices of the things
that we do. Yeah, but that's not an excuse for
not training. Yes, when you do have you know, when
when you're away from that situation and you have other options,
you can't always say well, I had to do it
because there was no choice. If you say that repeatedly,
I'm going to say, well, you're just not even working
on it, because if you were, then these things would
become more voluntary and consensual and your dog would be Okay,
I'm used to this. I know what to do here.
You're going to put eye drops in or ear drops in.
Let's say you're going to clean my ears. I'm going
to put my head on a pillow in your lap.
Dog's going to hold their head there. I'm going to
do the thing of the ears, and then we get
our reinforcer and we're done. But I need to work
on that away from the time when my dog has
an air infection. I can work on it. When it's
you know, there's pain involved and there's stress involved. That's
not the time they're going to learn anything I want.
It's kindly good learn things I don't want in those cases.
So yeah, I try to clarify for them. That is
almost always you get an option. But when you don't
you don't. We try to be neutral, We try to
get it done as fast as we can. But this
has to happen, and that happens at the vet, that
happens at the emergency veat whether we want it to
or not. I've had enough animals with emergencies to know
somebody grabs you and carries you in the back. I
want my animal thinking, yeah, look, just one of those things.
It happens. I don't want them thinking, well, I get
a choice here, and you can't do this to me.
Let's let's help make them tolerant. Let's help make them
cliant about these things.
Speaker 3: Great, wonderful, Well, this is great work you're doing. How
can people get in touch with you? How can they
find out more about your work?
Speaker 2: The best way would be through my website. It's im Knine,
the letter K, the number nine in focus. I n
f O c us dot com, so knine InFocus dot com.
I write blog posts regularly. So if you if you
look on my website, which I'm just getting redone, so
it's it's all getting shiny and pretty. But if you
look there, there will be a place where you will
see blog and you can look at the blog post
and subscribe to it the email list, and then whenever
I'm doing anything, I usually talk about it there. I
do lots of online classes, webinars, workshops. I'm in the
middle of developing a cooperative care trainer certificate program, so
hopefully that's going to be up maybe this summer that's
going to actually be done. That's a big project, but
it's a fun one too, So I'm always working on
something I'm Since I've retired from academics, it's like I
work more now, but it's all stuff I enjoy. Who
doesn't love the work on dog stuff?
Speaker 3: So that's wonderful. Well, thank you for helping people to
find how to give more choice into the lives of
the animals who share their lives with us. Thank you, DAP.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed good.
Speaker 3: We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being a part of the
Human Animal Connection Podcast. We'll see you in the next episode.
Bye for now.
Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in to the Human Animal Connection Show.
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