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Speaker 1: Is this ped Life Radio.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk pets.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Human Animal Connection Show, where we believe

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we can communicate with all animals. Join us as we

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explore the thirty three principles and healing methods of the

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Human Animal Connection. As animal lovers, we know that you

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share our commitment to making the world a kinder place

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for all creatures. Together, let's embrace the transformative healing power

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of the Human Animal Connection.

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Speaker 3: Welcome everyone to the Human Animal Connection. I'm so glad

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you're with us because i have Deborah Jones, and she's

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a PhD, a retired psychology professor who now trains animals

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full time, and she's got a really interesting program. She's

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been doing this over thirty years, and she focuses on

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positive reinforcement methods. But what I'm so excited about is

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her work on the importance of giving animals choices when

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we're doing training. So we're going to really focus on

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that today, because animals have feelings, too, right, and we

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need to consider their feelings and not just impose a

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training method on them to get some results that we

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think are important. So that's really great. Well, Devorah, thank

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you so much for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited.

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If there's one thing I can talk about endlessly, it's

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about dogs, Oh good, and dog training, And that's one

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thing that never gets old. As you said, I've been

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doing it for thirty some years, and every day it

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feels like I learned something new. So one of those things,

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it's like an area to me where you can never

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know enough right, keeps it interesting. And I think that

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you heard about me through a blog post that I

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wrote about animals having feelings, so certainly that must have

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resonated with you. Yes, that we're on the same wavelength

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a little bit when we talk about that. And one

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of the things I see in the course of my

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career is that things are changing and people are going

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From in the beginning when I was first seriously training,

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formally training, probably in the early nineties, it was all

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about to get the dog to do the thing. If

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I could get the dog to sit or come or

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stay or heal, then I was a successful dog trainer.

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And just at that time there started to be this

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little rift where there was a small subgroup of people

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who were like, but I don't like the way that

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you have to do it get the things to happen,

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but it's not comfortable for me because it doesn't seem

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like my dog is having a very good time with it. Yes,

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that to me was like the beginning of everything that

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came after with the more positive reinforcement movement. But even

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then a lot of the times it was still on

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folks based on the mechanics of training, not on the

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relationship or the interaction that you're having with the dog.

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So that to me became something that I started to

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notice and focus on and realize a lot of times

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what there was something missing. And the missing thing wasn't

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that the dog needed more training in their skills and behaviors.

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The missing thing kind of came down to this relationship. Yes,

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and the dog maybe didn't really want to be there

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and didn't want to do the things they were doing,

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but they weren't given any options. Right Yeah, so yeah,

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voice you know exactly.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if we do that to humans,

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we call it slavery race, why would we want to

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do that to our animals that we love so much?

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And you know there's a better way, and the better

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way is what we're really talking about today, and how

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we can a notice first if a dog is not

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enjoying it or not, or it's had enough, or it's

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just tired or whatever the reason. I guess the first

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step is just to notice. And then how do you

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introduce choice. Let's say you have something you want to

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dog to do, But how do you introduce choice?

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Speaker 2: That's I think that's a good question, and it's a

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big question because it's not always choice is not always

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something that's clearly obvious. We have to look at those

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small clues and those little subtle signs that a dog

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might be giving us. And so one of the things

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that I really stress, especially now in my work, is

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paying such close attention to your dog's body language. Look

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at they're telling us things all the time. They are

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trying their hardest to communicate, and they probably think we're

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pretty dense yecause don't get it, don't read it right.

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And even for myself, when I go back and watch

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training videos, I'm like, how could I have missed that

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my dog clearly indicating that they weren't comfortable with something,

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and I'm just going along like, hey, everything's fine. And

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because we get the idea that because we're using cookies

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and toys and we're trying to be fun that the

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dog will never want to opt out or be stressed.

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And I don't think that's really true. I think there's

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a lot more to it. It's a lot more nuanced

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than just what we're using as reinforcers. So therefore dogs

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always want to work. So knowing the dog, starting to

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form that relationship with them where you are paying attention,

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so you can tell. Because every dog's different with their

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body language, we have the universal things that the dog

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puts their ears back, or that they move their tail

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a certain way, or their hackles go up. Those universal

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things tell me, oh, this dog is not happy to

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be here. If my dog tries to leave, that's a

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clear one. And I like that one. Yeah, go ahead.

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And so I always give my dogs the option to leave.

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They can leave a training session. I will never try

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to coax them back into it. And in fact, they

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will give them cookies when they leave. They leave, I'm

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going to give you a cookie scatter on the floor.

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I'm going to in the session because you gave me information.

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You told me what we were doing was not comfortable

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for you at that moment, right, right, I don't want

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to punish that, right, and telling me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the next day that same thing

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may be perfectly comfortable. Who knows what scent was in

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the room, or what noise or what emotional dynamic with

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their person could have made them get into a no mode. No,

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I don't want to do this right.

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Speaker 2: There's so many possibilities that we don't perceive. No, we

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don't feel the things that they do. And so I

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always feel like my dog can always tell me no,

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and so that's that's their choice. To me. They can

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always leave a session, but I'm I have to say,

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I'm surprised when they do, because I work very hard

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to make sure that they want to be doing what

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I'm doing, and I work very hard to keep my

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session short and to use reinforcers thoughtfully and carefully, and

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to not push them. If I start to see those

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little signs that they might be getting uncomfortable, that's when

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I need to stop, not for one more repetition and

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one more repetition. A friend of mine calls that testing

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to destruction. If you just keep going, you know you

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should stop. You do one more and that's almost always

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a bad choice. So letting them stop is to me

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kind of the ultimate choice, and I set up all

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my sessions so that they're free to leave. You know,

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they're free to opt out of the session. I will

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reinforce that we will take a break, and I will

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try to determine what do I need to change for

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next time. Maybe, as you said, the answer might be nothing.

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It might be just that day they just weren't feeling it,

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they weren't feeling great. But often it's something that i've

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I can change and I do differently, so I do.

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I feel like that gives me a lot of power, actually,

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because if I can change it, then I can make

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the next session go better. Yes, I can entice my

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dog into wanting to work with me. If they don't

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want to be there, it's ever going to.

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Speaker 3: Be good, right, right right? And sometimes do you sense

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when you're doing a training that their persons maybe a

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little tense or stressed or has an agenda and that

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that Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah, it's our emotions are so tied up in it.

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And especially back in the days when I was showing

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in competition obedience, that's like the most stressful thing in

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the world to do. I don't even know why I

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put myself through it other than that at that point

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in time, that was if you wanted to show a dog,

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that was it. You did a confirmation or you did

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competition obedience. It was even just before agility was becoming

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popular in the United States, and so the nerves of that,

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you know, and it would be, well, why did my

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dog do it so well in training and I get

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in the ring and they can't do it. It's like, well,

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there's a clear reason they can't do it. But people

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would get very upset with their dogs because they didn't

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do in the ring and competition what they could do

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in a training setting. And so I think a lot

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of that is human nerves and the dogs feel that

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and they feel like something dangerous is happening. Why are

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you so worried? If I was walking down the street

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with somebody and all of a sudden they got really

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nervous and tense and started breathing strangely, I wouldn't got

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like stiff in their movements. I would be concerned too,

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what's wrong? There's something going on? Is there a bear somewhere?

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What's happening here?

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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly?

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Speaker 2: So I think our dogs pick up on that so much.

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Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we have a program called a therapy dog

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program called Canines Teach Compassion, where we take the therapy

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dogs into the high school and we have to teach

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the kids to watch those signals, you know, because the

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you know, sometimes the dog wants to snuggle and cuddle,

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and sometimes the dog doesn't want to snuggle and cuddle. Yeah.

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So what are some of the things that you would advise,

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let's say, our heart school students to be more attending

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to embodied language or behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think people have this idea that somehow all

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dogs will react in the same way and that all

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dogs like them. Maybe they you know, maybe they do,

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maybe they don't it again on any given day. Maybe

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they're just not wanting that that sort of interaction. I say,

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you know, stop, don't go into an animal space until

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you've observed them first. Stop, take a look at the animal,

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invite them into your space instead of like pushing to

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get closer to them. You know, we're very handsy as humans.

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We are all about putting our hands on things all

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the time, and dogs are one of those we really

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want to touch. I really really want to get up clothes.

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We want to touch them, we want to hug them.

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And for some dogs that's great, but for other dogs

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that is not so good. So stiffening, I think, just

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the stiffness of a dog as opposed to the looseness

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of their muscles. But being able to see that that's

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a minute thing. Yes, people don't know that dog. You

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don't know what's normal for them. So I think there's

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a lot of there should be by the handlers, a

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lot of gatekeeping of you know, maybe explain this, Oh

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he's you know, he's turning his head away. That means

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he's not real comfortable right now, you know, So why

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don't you sit on the floor over here and then

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we'll walk by, or whatever the case might be. So

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I think a lot of our job as trainers is

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to protect our dog's emotional re bonses and to explain

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to other people that that's what it is, and that

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that doesn't mean the dog doesn't like them, because people

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get their feelings hurt. We're used to golden retrievers who

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want to be everybody's face and love you all the time,

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and they're so happy, and then we come up on

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dogs that are not like that, right, and that word

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that makes people uncomfortable because they feel like all dogs

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should be that happy, friendly dog, mythical dog that they

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have in that this is normal for dogs, and to

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understand that. You know, if they turn their head away,

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if they put their ears back, if they put their

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tail down, you know, if they gets stiff, those kinds

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of things tell us that the dog is not really comfortable.

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So let's back off and let the dog make the

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overtures instead of us doing it. I think that in itself,

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and I've always done that with animals, mostly for safety purposes.

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If you are geting dottic animals or non domestic animals,

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you don't go in at them like you do a

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dog get away with it. You can do it, but

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stupid because you want to watch to see how they're

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comfortable as you close distance.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, we had you know, one of our our

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therapy dogs is a very cute King Cheryl Spaniel, you know,

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just cues can be and normally wants to engage. And

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his person recognized he came in yesterday and he had

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come from just being with two toddlers having uh yeah,

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and the dog was didn't want to interact us hung

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by him under his chair. And it was a great

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teaching example because normally we've seen this dog want to

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engage and want to play, and that he just had

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enough with the two toddlers.

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Speaker 2: And I could see that, you know, you need a nap.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yea, we pushed too much onto them. You're

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going to get reactions you don't want. So we have

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to watch their stress levels. And that's something I always

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thought when when I did a little bit of therapy

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dog work way back when, was that we're putting a

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lot on the dogs here. You know, we're we're expecting

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a lot, and and only certain kinds of dogs, only

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certain dogs are really good at it and can consistently

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do it. So even though we might want to as

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a human, it's like, does the dog really want to?

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Is this something to come out of feeling better than

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when they went in? And for some dogs the answers yes,

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and then it's like, oh, yeah, do it yeah, And

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if it's.

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Speaker 3: Not, yeah, Well. We had one greyhound, older older greyhound,

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rescue greyhound, and she was amazing for twenty minutes. I

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mean she would just look at you and you would

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melt and she would stare into your eyes with this love.

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Twenty minutes later she was done, and I just said

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to her handler, that's okay, twenty minutes and you go home.

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Speaker 2: Hey, exactly, Well, I have a social time limit too.

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I could only be at a party for so long

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and then I have to leave. So we should we

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should understand that. That is also true of many other

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animals that we have to kind of respect there. Some

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of them are more sociable, some of them are more introverted,

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you know. And yes, you can work on it, you

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can work on socializing them, but you can't change their

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basic nature. We have to just respect it, and we

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shouldn't push them into sit situations where that discomfort is

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going to happen over and over again. That sometimes we

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make a choice not based on what we want, but

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based on what's best for that animal, and that might not,

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like I said, that might not be at all the

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choice that we want to make. I have my youngest

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dog now is an Australian Coolie named Wizard, and Wizard

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is not as comfortable in public as I would like

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him to be. I would like him. He likes people,

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he's not at all crazy about other dogs, and he

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gets very nervous out in public if there are going

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to be a lot of other dogs around, and so

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I'm like, how much does he really need to be

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in these situations? How can I meet his needs and

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keep him comfortable? And I've determined he's a dog who

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likes predictability and structure much more than he likes adventure

291
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and spontaneity. So I have had to change what I

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wanted to do with him and what I thought our

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relationship would be so that he would be more comfortable

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on a day to day basis. So it's not always

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like I said, I want him to go out in

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the world with me, and I want him to go hiking,

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I want him to do a lot of things, and

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he's like, no, the sofa is good and my house

299
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with the dogs I know and people that's good. Don't

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ask any more of me. So sometimes we just have

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to accept.

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Speaker 3: That, right exactly now, it's only you know, ten or

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fifteen percent of dogs that I meet that are really

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destined to be therapy dogs that really thrive in that environment.

305
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But even with those dogs, they you know, forty five

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minutes to an hour once or twice a week, that's

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about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, we really to think about and protect that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wonderful. Well, we're going to take a short little

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break when we come back on one, hear a story.

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I know you have a story about Saber and yeah,

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and about how you were able to give choice to Saber.

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So would be back in just a moment.

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Speaker 5: Take a bite out of your competition and advertise your

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Speaker 1: Hey friends. If you like what you're hearing and want

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00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:44,880
to learn more, check out doctor Joseph's book The Human

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00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:51,279
Animal Connection, Deepening Relationships with Animals and ourselves, or visit

328
00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:57,119
the website The Humananimalconnection dot org to book an online consultation.

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Thank you for loving animals. Now back to the show.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on Petlifradio dot com.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Human Animal Connection. I'm Jeanie Joseph,

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the executive director of the Human Animal Connection, and I'm

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speaking with Deborah Jones, and she is a PhD and

334
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a full time animal trainer working with positive choices, helping

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dogs make choices and be considerate of the feelings that

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they have. So tell us a story about Saber.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, the Saber story. That's sort of a pivotal

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moment in my career as a trainer. I mentioned earlier

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about you know, they're only being competition obedience if you

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wanted to train and show a dog. And then agility

341
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came along and agility got big, and so I got

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involved with that and really really enjoyed doing agility, and

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somebody contacted me about doing and private lessons because she

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was having trouble with her. Shelty named Saber in agility,

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and the problem was Saber would not do the dog walk.

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He would bulk stop, and he loved doing agility. It

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was clear he really enjoyed everything but the dog walk.

348
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And so every time they'd get to that point, there

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was all this pressure that was she was worried because

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she didn't think he was going to do it, and

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like one out of every ten times he'd just do it,

352
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but then a lot of times he wouldn't, and then

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they would have this kind of disconnect in the ring

354
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and they wouldn't be able to get their teamwork back. Yeah,

355
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and so as an outside observer I was able to

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kind of think through this a little bit, because when

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it's you, it's very emotional and it's like, why doesn't

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my dog want to work with me? But when you're

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an outside observer, you can be a little more objective.

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And I said, the thing was saber was that that

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pressure was so much at that moment that he just folded.

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He couldn't do it, and he wanted he seemed to

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really want to do it, because he had like these

364
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false tries where he'd almost start and then he'd stop,

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and then he'd second guess himself, and he was clearly

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losing confidence very very quickly. And so my suggestion, and

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she did take it, was don't do the dog walk,

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run past it with him, don't ask him to do it.

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And of course this meant a lot of entry fees

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were lost because you don't do the dog walk, you

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can't qualify, And so that's a little bit of a problem,

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but it was just like there was so much pressure

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there and he felt like he had no choice yet

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he couldn't do it, and it was sort of poisoning

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everything else in their training relationship. It would be worse

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instead of better. So she did that and people were like,

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why are you doing that? They questioned her, they would

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question me, and I kept I just had faith. I

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kept say saying, if we give him options, he's going

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to gain his confidence back and things are going to

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get better. And they did so eventually, all of a sudden,

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they run by instead of running by the dog walk

383
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with her. He took it, and he's like cool. He

384
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was like what, And then it was just like by

385
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taking off that pressure to perform, he actually was like, well, oh,

386
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I can do this. But the more she pushed at

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it and the harder she tried, the worse it got.

388
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And so that to me was like giving him the

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choice made all the difference. And every trainer thought that

390
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,759
this will never work. They're just she's wasting her money.

391
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She shouldn't even be listening to what I'm telling her

392
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because clearly this is very bad advice. It worked out,

393
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and it actually kind of started me down this little

394
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bit of a different path and training because I could see.

395
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And not only that, but like Saber's confidence grew. He

396
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,799
was one of the fastest dogs out there and it

397
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,240
was amazing and that the only thing holding back was

398
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he wouldn't do the dog walk, and once he would,

399
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once he was like, oh nothing, piece of cake, got this.

400
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Then he was an amazing agility dog after that.

401
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Speaker 3: Fantastic.

402
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:13,519
Speaker 5: Yeah.

403
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's such a fundamental respect for the

404
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,720
dog's emotions. It's like, you're not wrong for having this

405
00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:22,279
feeling you don't want to do the dog walk. You're okay,

406
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you know.

407
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Speaker 2: It's like almost like you imagine running up to the

408
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edge of a pool or the edge of a cliff

409
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to jump into a body of water, and you just go, oh, no,

410
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I can't do that. But if somebody keeps going, go go,

411
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go do it, you can do it. And the more

412
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they try, the more you resist and the more worried

413
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,359
you get. But if they say, okay, we'll just run

414
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up to the edge and stop and we'll just run up,

415
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:44,359
and then one day you just go, you know what,

416
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,799
got it? And then once you do it, you go

417
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,359
I knew I could do that, and so I think

418
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,920
it's nice to be able to give them those kinds

419
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,400
of choices we can do.

420
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Speaker 3: It's awesome. Yeah, it's it's such a beautiful new way new,

421
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,400
not now to last, but nude for you know, the

422
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,640
old way of thinking that we can that their response

423
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:09,759
is valid if it's a no, it's good, you know

424
00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:10,160
what I mean?

425
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I know the information. I always say,

426
00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:17,200
it's information and it tells us that we need to

427
00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:19,799
change something we're doing. So I want my dog to

428
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:22,279
tell me where we're having problems or where they are

429
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:25,039
having problems, because if they don't tell me, how do

430
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,680
I know? This was you know, from a lot of

431
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,039
old school thinking that once I tell that dog to

432
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:33,960
do something, they darn well better do it, there's no

433
00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,519
question about that. And that was not going to work

434
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:40,480
with Saber. He was just like he just couldn't do it,

435
00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:43,000
and pushing him didn't make it better.

436
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

437
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,079
Speaker 2: Sometimes letting go and giving them plenty of choice, that's

438
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,759
the thing. I think that and then they go, oh.

439
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,799
Speaker 3: I can do I can do That's great, wonderful, And

440
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,039
what about Star? Tell us the story of Star Star?

441
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Speaker 2: My baby Star was my border Collie. I just lost

442
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,759
her a little not quite a year ago, so I'm

443
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:08,440
still I'm still missing her a lot. Star was probably

444
00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:13,000
the smartest dog I've ever had seen known, trained, brilliant,

445
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,279
she's kind of scary smart. And when she was about

446
00:24:16,319 --> 00:24:18,880
a year old, she had a bad visit at event

447
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:23,200
and that was it for her. She's like, Nope, nobody's

448
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,960
ever touching me again. You can touch me, but only

449
00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:29,480
in certain places. I'm like, wait a minute, this is

450
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:32,720
a problem. Yeah, going to be a big issue. She

451
00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:38,480
was truly traumatized, and she didn't want people restraining her

452
00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:42,200
in particular and holding her in particular ways and touching

453
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,720
her legs and feet was a complete no. I'm like,

454
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,359
but you know, I've never had this problem, and I

455
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,759
never really we never thought about the problem of a

456
00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:52,720
dog that won't let you handle them a whole lot

457
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,160
because I just did, and my dogs all sort of

458
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,599
just went along with it. They might not have liked it,

459
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,160
but they did it. And Starr was like, no, this

460
00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:04,880
is not happening. And I could see that pushing her

461
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,319
was making her defensive and to make her be reactive

462
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:12,720
and she would bite just because she was so stressed

463
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,720
about everything. So I had to go way way way back,

464
00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:20,680
like to ground zero with her and decide how am

465
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,160
I going to get around this because I can't just

466
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,680
not do it. We can't not do physical care for

467
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,680
her when she needs it. She needs bet visits, she

468
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,119
needs grooming, and she wasn't really cooperating with anything when

469
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,680
we got started here. So I had to go back

470
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:39,160
and start to develop some ideas about how to change

471
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,759
how she felt about it. And I knew that going

472
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,319
for classical conditioning 're changing the emotional response was what

473
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,960
I needed to do. And so I had a lot

474
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,960
of work that I did there over many many years

475
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,279
and even up until the end where she was much better.

476
00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:01,359
But I still had to make all of that all

477
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,039
of this time. So I started working and trying to

478
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:07,759
figure out different techniques and different approaches to get her

479
00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:12,359
comfortable with being physically handled and touch because I knew

480
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,880
that it was going to have to happen. Yeah, And

481
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,960
in fact, at one point she had a corn cob

482
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,279
and we had two surgeries and off and she was

483
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:23,200
an emergency vets overnight, and I was so thankful I

484
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,480
had done all this work. This was when she was

485
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,240
ten years old, and the problem started when she was

486
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:30,960
a year. So I was thankful I had done all

487
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:34,599
that work all those years because it made it better.

488
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,640
It wasn't you know. It's like she's already bad things

489
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,839
are happening. At least the stress of other people handling

490
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,839
her isn't adding onto that. At this point in time,

491
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,880
it was bad enough, you know, And she was enough already.

492
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,720
So the point of the Star story to me is

493
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,319
that she actually started me down a totally different path

494
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,720
with training, into the idea of cooperative care of how

495
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:03,480
can I get my dog to cooperate with what I

496
00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:07,880
want to do, even when that's uncomfortable for them, or

497
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,200
it's concerning or stressful for them, So how can I

498
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:16,240
make it all better at least tolerable? And sometimes tolerance

499
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:18,160
is the best we can hope for on some things.

500
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,960
It's like I tolerate the dentist, so I don't really

501
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,559
enjoy it, but I cooperate. I do what they tell me,

502
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:26,920
and so I want the same things for my dogs.

503
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,200
And when I started working in this area and talking

504
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,799
about it, all of a sudden, I've got all sorts

505
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:34,720
of people who, well, I can't put drops in my

506
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:37,559
dog's ear, I can't do my dog's nails, that's the

507
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:40,920
big one. I can't do nails, or you know, my

508
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,319
dog needs this medication and they won't take it. And

509
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,839
it's sort of just then ballooned into this whole area

510
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:50,559
that I started to work on. It's like, how can

511
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:53,200
we get our dogs comfortable with all these things? And

512
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,720
so then I went down that path because of Star

513
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,960
and I'm still very very deep into the area of

514
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:05,240
work now and it's something to me that it really

515
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,759
can improve their lives.

516
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: Yes, we give.

517
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: Them, I give them choice. I mentioned, you know, they

518
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,960
can always leave a session. They can always leave a

519
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,400
session when I'm working on this cooperative care, and that

520
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,480
tells me right away if my dog has to leave,

521
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,359
I'm pushing too hard. I need to back off. I

522
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,000
need to make things easier, shorter, sessions, more fun, better,

523
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:30,720
reinforce whatever it takes. I need to do something differently,

524
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,319
or I need it's not you know, I need to

525
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,880
back up the whole process. Like instead of touching a

526
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,559
dog's leg, I need to just hold up my hand

527
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000
and work with that. So I started kind of developing

528
00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:46,119
a lot of techniques for how I would go about

529
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,559
installing kind of the fundamentals of cooperative care, and I've

530
00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:54,960
worked through a whole program of that now, which has

531
00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:58,279
probably taken me, you know, when I think about it,

532
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,079
ten years altogether to really put together a comprehensive program

533
00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:06,359
of how I do that, and as much as possible,

534
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,119
the dog gets choice at every step of the way.

535
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,200
That kind of they think leads us into the well,

536
00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:16,640
what happens when choice isn't possible? Question? And that's a

537
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,000
big one because almost everybody asked me that, Well, you know,

538
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:21,640
now my dog has to go to the vet, or

539
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,680
they have to have surgery, or they have stitches, or

540
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,839
you know, I have to wrap something, or they have

541
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,960
to take this medication. Today, sometimes we do not have options,

542
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,240
and so for me, I want it to be clear

543
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:40,640
to the dog if it's a non optional event, I'm

544
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,039
not going to ask your permission. I'm not going to

545
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:44,880
ask for consent. I'm not going to pretend you have

546
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,200
a choice. There will be times when we have to

547
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,240
restrain you and do something to you, yes, But I

548
00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:53,480
at the same time as I'm doing everything else, I'm

549
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:58,400
working on handling and restraint and I'm working on teaching

550
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,720
my dog the basic concept that people do all kinds

551
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:07,079
of weird stuff to your body. It's okay, they're just weird,

552
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,559
it's straight. Why are you sticking your finger in my mouth?

553
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,720
I don't know, but there's a cookie afterwards. Or why

554
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:16,039
are you putting something in my eye which is very unpleasant?

555
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,200
Oh I don't know, but okay, they do it, and

556
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,680
then I get a bunch of cookies and we're all

557
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,119
okay and we move on with life. So I'm teaching

558
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,680
them that these things are all okay, but sometimes they're

559
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,920
not ready and we still have to do it. So

560
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,799
when that's the case, when there is no choice, I

561
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:33,319
don't pretend there is okay, don't you know, it's a

562
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:36,480
whole different situation. I don't work in my usual training area.

563
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,319
I don't get the option of leaving, and I actually

564
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:43,240
don't even use cookies when something is going to be

565
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:46,599
possibly unpleasant and I'm just going to do it anyway,

566
00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:50,440
because that can poison the cookies, and now they become

567
00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:54,200
suspicious because the cookies are connected with the event that

568
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:59,200
was unpleasant. So that those are situations in real life

569
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,279
that happen, and we have to learn to work around them,

570
00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:05,319
just like we don't always have choices of the things

571
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,920
that we do. Yeah, but that's not an excuse for

572
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,440
not training. Yes, when you do have you know, when

573
00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:15,279
when you're away from that situation and you have other options,

574
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:17,440
you can't always say well, I had to do it

575
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,640
because there was no choice. If you say that repeatedly,

576
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,799
I'm going to say, well, you're just not even working

577
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,680
on it, because if you were, then these things would

578
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,759
become more voluntary and consensual and your dog would be Okay,

579
00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:32,920
I'm used to this. I know what to do here.

580
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,240
You're going to put eye drops in or ear drops in.

581
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:37,119
Let's say you're going to clean my ears. I'm going

582
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,839
to put my head on a pillow in your lap.

583
00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:40,759
Dog's going to hold their head there. I'm going to

584
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:42,440
do the thing of the ears, and then we get

585
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:45,680
our reinforcer and we're done. But I need to work

586
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,640
on that away from the time when my dog has

587
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,559
an air infection. I can work on it. When it's

588
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,920
you know, there's pain involved and there's stress involved. That's

589
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,839
not the time they're going to learn anything I want.

590
00:31:57,039 --> 00:31:59,640
It's kindly good learn things I don't want in those cases.

591
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:03,240
So yeah, I try to clarify for them. That is

592
00:32:03,799 --> 00:32:06,519
almost always you get an option. But when you don't

593
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:08,559
you don't. We try to be neutral, We try to

594
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:10,839
get it done as fast as we can. But this

595
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,680
has to happen, and that happens at the vet, that

596
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,039
happens at the emergency veat whether we want it to

597
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,559
or not. I've had enough animals with emergencies to know

598
00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:21,119
somebody grabs you and carries you in the back. I

599
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,920
want my animal thinking, yeah, look, just one of those things.

600
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:27,119
It happens. I don't want them thinking, well, I get

601
00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:28,759
a choice here, and you can't do this to me.

602
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,559
Let's let's help make them tolerant. Let's help make them

603
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:34,079
cliant about these things.

604
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: Great, wonderful, Well, this is great work you're doing. How

605
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,759
can people get in touch with you? How can they

606
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:39,960
find out more about your work?

607
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,599
Speaker 2: The best way would be through my website. It's im Knine,

608
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,839
the letter K, the number nine in focus. I n

609
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,640
f O c us dot com, so knine InFocus dot com.

610
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:55,359
I write blog posts regularly. So if you if you

611
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,039
look on my website, which I'm just getting redone, so

612
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:01,039
it's it's all getting shiny and pretty. But if you

613
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:02,839
look there, there will be a place where you will

614
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,480
see blog and you can look at the blog post

615
00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:09,839
and subscribe to it the email list, and then whenever

616
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,799
I'm doing anything, I usually talk about it there. I

617
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:17,960
do lots of online classes, webinars, workshops. I'm in the

618
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:23,559
middle of developing a cooperative care trainer certificate program, so

619
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,319
hopefully that's going to be up maybe this summer that's

620
00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:30,440
going to actually be done. That's a big project, but

621
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,519
it's a fun one too, So I'm always working on

622
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:36,720
something I'm Since I've retired from academics, it's like I

623
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:40,400
work more now, but it's all stuff I enjoy. Who

624
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,079
doesn't love the work on dog stuff?

625
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,839
Speaker 3: So that's wonderful. Well, thank you for helping people to

626
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,480
find how to give more choice into the lives of

627
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:52,480
the animals who share their lives with us. Thank you, DAP.

628
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed good.

629
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,279
Speaker 3: We'll talk to you soon.

630
00:33:57,599 --> 00:33:57,759
Speaker 2: Well.

631
00:33:57,799 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being a part of the

632
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,480
Human Animal Connection Podcast. We'll see you in the next episode.

633
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,280
Bye for now.

634
00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in to the Human Animal Connection Show.

635
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,920
Please visit our website, the Humananimalconnection dot org. There you

636
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,480
can sign up for our free email newsletter, book a consultation,

637
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,599
or check out our blogs and resources. Our best selling book,

638
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,760
The Human Animal Connection is available on Amazon, and your

639
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,280
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640
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,360
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641
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,440
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642
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