1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,839 Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000 an idea. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,519 Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the. 4 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:19,039 Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,559 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not 6 00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:24,600 because I put my hand on a book and made 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,839 a wish and working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:32,359 Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth, 9 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:34,719 Fusian wisdom will come to you that way. 10 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:52,799 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,119 Speaker 2: Okay, is there something suddenly in the drinking water in 13 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,920 my hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma? I mean, I was born here, 14 00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:08,280 I've lived here. It's just what it is. It is whitebread, 15 00:01:08,359 --> 00:01:14,079 corn fed, red state conservative, maga Jesus town, Oklahoma. Right. 16 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,920 And then I find out a few years ago Forrest 17 00:01:17,079 --> 00:01:20,319 Valcai lives about twenty minutes from me, and we become 18 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:22,519 friends and brothers in a way. We're going to actually 19 00:01:22,879 --> 00:01:24,920 be at a live event coming up in March of 20 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,239 next year. And then somebody brings to my attention another 21 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:36,560 ex vangelical activist. Her name is Casey Malone, Kays Malone, 22 00:01:36,879 --> 00:01:42,799 Elne Well. I had never heard of Casey Malone, and 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,159 the listener was like, Oh, you got to have this conversation. 24 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,799 She's terrific. So I browsed the YouTube channel, and there 25 00:01:48,879 --> 00:01:52,159 is a ton of information, videos, content, etc. That's been 26 00:01:52,239 --> 00:01:55,480 hidden in plain sight, right in front of my face, 27 00:01:55,959 --> 00:01:57,920 and I missed it. So I spent a bunch of 28 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:04,239 time browsing her content. She's got videos debunking Christian morality 29 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,840 and quote unquote Western civilization. She does commentary about the 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:15,080 Christian nationalism pipeline to fascism, how evangelical Christianity is helping 31 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,400 to ruin the United States, Christianity and the climate, how 32 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,599 faith is actually a tool of control, an atheist take 33 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:29,360 on the Catholic Church, an atheist take on islamaphobia growing 34 00:02:29,439 --> 00:02:33,000 up in a megachurch. Lots of stuff on Christian Zionism, 35 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,439 which we spoke about in a conversation a few weeks ago. 36 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,439 Right here on the podcast, well I asked, Casey, would 37 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,840 you like to sit down on camera and let me 38 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:46,840 do I call it a profile or a video essay, 39 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,039 and it's kind of a produced piece. The final edit 40 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,000 I think came out to about sixteen seventeen minutes where 41 00:02:55,039 --> 00:02:57,919 she sat down. I actually put a video set together 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,000 in my living room and she came by and we 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,120 had a chat. We actually talked for forty five minutes. 44 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,360 But the video version is kind of edited down in 45 00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:11,680 streamline that is linked in the description box. It is 46 00:03:11,719 --> 00:03:15,319 available to watch on YouTube, but for you, I wanted 47 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,400 to provide kind of the raw interview, the whole freaking thing, 48 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,479 which is twice the length, and it's interesting stuff. My 49 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:29,520 conversation with ex vangelical and humanist activist Casey Malone and 50 00:03:29,599 --> 00:03:32,800 I began with a question about the origins of her faith, 51 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,680 kind of the Genesis chapter one of growing up in 52 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,639 a Christian home. 53 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,719 Speaker 3: I was raised in an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian household, school 54 00:03:44,879 --> 00:03:49,360 and church, so that was here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I 55 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:53,520 went to a very Bible based private high school affiliated 56 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,840 with a megachurch. And it was not just an act 57 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:00,439 for me. I believed very deeply, all the way down, 58 00:04:00,479 --> 00:04:03,360 all of the layers of belief. I believed everything I 59 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,280 was told, you know, especially when it's reinforced in the household, 60 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,400 it's kind of hard to escape the reality that is 61 00:04:10,439 --> 00:04:13,759 presented to you until essentially when I went off to 62 00:04:13,879 --> 00:04:17,560 university in another state. That opened up a little bit 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,199 more opportunities for my perception to expand. But up until then, 64 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,079 I had no questions, I had no doubts. It all 65 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:27,040 made sense, all of the scriptures that were taught to me, 66 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,879 not just weekly on Sunday sermons, but in the daily 67 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,839 Bible classes that were required for my education. It was 68 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:37,959 easy to piece it all together. It was easy to 69 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,800 never question. Everyone around you is believing the same thing. 70 00:04:41,519 --> 00:04:46,319 And I remember walking away and it felt like I 71 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:49,879 was completely reidentifying. I mean, that's what the process is, right. 72 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: How literal were you? How fundy were you in your words? 73 00:04:54,519 --> 00:04:58,199 Speaker 3: So I use the term fundamentalist with the definition of 74 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,920 the literal interpretation of the Bible as the infallible and 75 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:07,360 unquestioned word of God. So that does lead to a 76 00:05:07,399 --> 00:05:13,000 creationist worldview. Six thousand year old Earth. The iteration of 77 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,920 my upbringings denomination. Technically we were non denominational, but of 78 00:05:16,959 --> 00:05:22,160 course that's a denomination. Our megachurch and therefore school also 79 00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:26,160 promoted the Armageddon interpretation of the Book of Revelation, which 80 00:05:26,199 --> 00:05:28,759 definitely came into play. There was always an anxiety about 81 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,839 the end of the world. Every year, we would you know, 82 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:34,480 pull out the lawn chairs and sit in the front 83 00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:36,800 yard waiting for the rapture. I mean it was all 84 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,480 very fundamentally yeah, really literal. Yeah. 85 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: What prompted that? Was there a date, like a save 86 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,680 the date it may happen today, or was it just 87 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,399 a random Hey, let's go out and wait for God 88 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:51,279 and the trumpet. 89 00:05:51,639 --> 00:05:55,879 Speaker 3: So according to the theology that we were taught, the 90 00:05:56,519 --> 00:06:02,399 offshoot of Christianity from the original religion of Judaism, right, well, 91 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:08,600 they have seven yearly feasts and the specific feasts line 92 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,000 up with biblical events. This was reverse engineered, of course. 93 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,079 So for example, Passover is a Jewish feast kind of 94 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,439 celebrating the liberation of the Israelites from Egyptian slavery. This 95 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,240 was all taught to me. Again, I'm not a Jewish scholar. 96 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,879 But then when Jesus died on the cross, this was 97 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,879 supposed to be the biblical fulfillment of that Jewish feast. 98 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:33,160 So that's one example of the seven. While the first 99 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,480 three Jewish feasts throughout the year, according to Christian theology, 100 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,759 have been fulfilled, and then the next one, the first 101 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:43,120 autumn feast that Christian theology says is going to be 102 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:46,560 fulfilled is the feast of trumpets, which is reverse engineered 103 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,040 and considered to be the rapture. So every year when 104 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,959 the Jewish Feast of Trumpets was coming around, that's when 105 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:58,319 these evangelical Christians in Tulsa, Oklahoma and throughout the United 106 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,839 States would sit, you know again on their front porch, 107 00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:04,920 waiting for the rapture. And this is why recently when 108 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,759 the Jewish Feast of Trumpets was coming around, there was 109 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,759 that rapture panic pretty much every autumn. So that's why 110 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:15,600 we see that there is actual theological backing behind it. 111 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: Were your parents weird, nervous, afraid of public school? 112 00:07:21,319 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: I think there was an anxiety about public school on 113 00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:27,720 behalf of my parents. But I also this is something 114 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 I talk a lot about on my platform. I think 115 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:34,519 there is a very weird tension when you start to 116 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:39,759 deconstruct or you do deconvert. There's this anger, totally valid 117 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,279 anger of feeling like we've been lied to our whole 118 00:07:42,279 --> 00:07:45,040 lives and manipulated our whole lives. But then when we 119 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,920 get into it, for example, me looking at my parents, 120 00:07:47,959 --> 00:07:49,959 I know they weren't actively lying to me. I know, 121 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,839 they weren't actively trying to raise me in a harmful environment. 122 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,199 They were actually just doing their best. And so that's 123 00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:58,360 a weird tension because I still feel like I've been 124 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:01,120 lied to, but I don't blame that, if that makes sense. 125 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:04,120 So they did have an anxiety about public school and 126 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,680 the secular world and modernization, a lot of those themes 127 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,000 that we see as fears presented in evangelical culture. For sure, I. 128 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: Feel the same way. The religion was a lie. My 129 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:17,120 parents were not liars, correct, And that's weird for some 130 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,600 people to try to process, right. My anger was more 131 00:08:19,639 --> 00:08:23,519 about boundaries totally. Once I left, was yours a culture 132 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,680 of shame being a female in this space. Can you 133 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,360 talk about growing up as a woman in a fundy faith? 134 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 3: Sure, so it's easy to use the terms patriarchal Abrahamic 135 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:38,759 faiths when we're talking about Christianity. That is accurate when 136 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,399 we get down to the lived experiences of women raised 137 00:08:42,399 --> 00:08:45,559 in an evangelical fundamentalist church. There are a lot more 138 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:49,639 layers that I think are important to point out. For example, 139 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,480 the simple fact of gendering the creator of the known 140 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,039 universe that does set up a psychological aspect of little 141 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,519 girls in Sunday school manhood or masculinity with divinity, and 142 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,519 there will just constantly be a hierarchy associated with that 143 00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:10,039 moving forward throughout the rest of our lives. The resulting 144 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,440 culture from those kinds of mentalities, the he hymn of 145 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:17,639 Divinity itself, the Hehmn of Jesus, all of that results 146 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,080 in a differential treatment once we get into say, adolescence 147 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:25,320 and what it looked like in the environment I was 148 00:09:25,399 --> 00:09:29,279 raised in, definitely boys and girls were treated differently and 149 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,480 purity culture. I am not the expert on purity culture, 150 00:09:32,519 --> 00:09:34,799 but having lived through it, I can tell you it 151 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,000 affected the both boys and girls, but it affected girls 152 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,759 in such a way that I think the damage is 153 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:43,279 a little bit more longer lasting. Now there is, of 154 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,559 course the argument like purity culture results for the boys 155 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,159 who are taught, don't worry about you know, there's no 156 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,840 culture of consent, there's no culture of Maybe that's not 157 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,480 true obviously, I'm not, you know, jaded at all, but 158 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:02,519 I just think, for EXAs example, whenever we had the 159 00:10:02,639 --> 00:10:05,759 talk in chapel during high school, they would split up 160 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:07,159 the boys and the girls and they would give us 161 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:12,240 different messages about how to navigate hormones and adolescents and 162 00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:15,960 dating and all of these different things. Obviously, abstinence was 163 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,559 just the only possible avenue for any of us to take. 164 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,720 But the way they presented abstinence to boys was to 165 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,240 resist temptation. The way they presented abstinence to girls was 166 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,279 it's your job to make sure that the boys resist temptation. 167 00:10:32,799 --> 00:10:35,279 And so in that way, the girls were kind of 168 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,879 pulling double responsibility in managing their own attire for the 169 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:44,519 sake of the boy's attention, in being responsible for any sin. 170 00:10:44,639 --> 00:10:47,399 I mean, this even gets into Adam and Eve, who 171 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:48,080 is the sinner? 172 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: There? 173 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,159 Speaker 3: Eve ate the apples, she is considered the first sinner. 174 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,480 Now there's all different kinds of theological arguments. Well, Eve 175 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,919 didn't know any better. Adam was actually the first sent 176 00:10:57,039 --> 00:10:59,080 and you can interpret it a million different ways. But 177 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,559 really what we see when we do these theological interpretations 178 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,919 of scripture like that, are you still using your reverse 179 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,759 engineering your arguments and these scriptures so that they hold 180 00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:13,480 up to whatever moral or ethical or logical point you're 181 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,399 trying to make. And in that sense, the question is, 182 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,159 did we really need the scripture in the first place 183 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:19,679 if that was the stance you were going to take. 184 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,639 So yeah, I mean, the culture of shame really did 185 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:27,480 go deep. The culture of responsibility for sexuality was just 186 00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:30,679 solely on the girls in the environment I was raised in, 187 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,639 and I think really so, I graduated top of my 188 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:37,159 class of the private high school I went to, and 189 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,279 I'll never forget that on graduation night when I gave 190 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,000 a wonderful valedictorian speech, got a standing ovation. It's not 191 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,039 a big deal. Obviously I didn't peak in high school. 192 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:53,559 But I'll never forget how many people came up to 193 00:11:53,799 --> 00:11:56,240 my dad, who's kind of walking around in the after 194 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,320 you know, the afterwards ceremony, and told him he's going 195 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,919 to make a great two options pastor's wife or English teacher. 196 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:08,720 That's what I was told on graduation night. So that's 197 00:12:08,759 --> 00:12:12,639 another example of the differentiation between boys and girls, because 198 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:14,519 that just would not have been the case for a 199 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,120 boy who was the valedictorian. So examples like that are 200 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,759 certainly a lot. They hit a little bit closer to 201 00:12:21,799 --> 00:12:24,480 home when we're talking about the lived experiences of women 202 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:28,120 being raised in the church, and it's a little bit 203 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:30,440 heartbreaking to see a lot of the girlfriends that I 204 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,120 grew up with and loved so much. They are adults 205 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,360 now kind of doing all of these mental gymnastics to 206 00:12:37,639 --> 00:12:39,960 explain why it's important for them to submit to their 207 00:12:40,039 --> 00:12:42,759 husbands and why it's important to let him lead. And 208 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:47,240 I'm just kind of watching and sitting here and supporting 209 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,840 them as women. But it's tricky to navigate, I'll admit it. 210 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:55,159 Speaker 2: Tell me about the seeds of doubt. When did you 211 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,840 start hearing a tiny ping? 212 00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:01,279 Speaker 3: I was always a reader. I read C. S. Lewis 213 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:04,759 and AW Tosar and a lot of other kind of 214 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,200 more in depth theologians starting in high school. I was 215 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,039 very curious and very studious that I brought with me 216 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,879 when I went off to public university in a different state, 217 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:19,399 outside of that bubble in which I was raised. So 218 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,519 originally I started taking religious studies courses at university for 219 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,399 the sake of proving the validity of the Bible. Right 220 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,679 that was my original intention. And as a result, of course, 221 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:33,679 I kind of got knocked around a little bit with 222 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,679 a lot of the ideas that were presented to me, 223 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,399 and was a lot more difficult to prove the validity 224 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:42,919 of the Bible than I expected. So as a lot 225 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:46,000 of people in the deconstruction space talk about, I really 226 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,960 considered deconstruction a journey, not a destination. I'm still deconstructing 227 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:53,440 aspects of evangelical upbringing and that mindset that I was 228 00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:56,919 raised with. But I did have a capital M moment, 229 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,960 and that happened when I was reading Lewis and ein 230 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,320 Rand simultaneously. Now, neither one of their actual ideologies do 231 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,360 I really align with, But what really happened was I 232 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,960 was seeing how these two very different authors were infusing 233 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,120 their fiction works with their own ideologies. And that's what 234 00:14:17,159 --> 00:14:20,159 did it for me, was realizing that authors always have 235 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,960 an agenda, and so that kind of kicked my brain 236 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,080 into gear. I had already been kind of confused about 237 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,919 the Bible, and obviously I didn't have my home church anymore, 238 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,039 so the community aspect of traditional evangelical culture I was 239 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,879 lacking as well. I had tried to go to a 240 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,000 church in the New State where I was going, but 241 00:14:38,039 --> 00:14:40,399 it just didn't feel right and nothing would ever replace 242 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,080 the friends I made growing up. So there were a 243 00:14:44,159 --> 00:14:47,000 lot of different factors that played into it. But once 244 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:51,039 I realized that writers and authors always have there at 245 00:14:51,039 --> 00:14:54,320 the very least their own personal biases when they're writing something. 246 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:57,799 The validity of the Bible broke down. So again, it's 247 00:14:57,799 --> 00:15:02,000 not that I was super persuaded by Rander Lewis. It 248 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,639 was that I saw that they were infusing their ideology, 249 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,039 and to me, that was the thread that was like 250 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,159 the through line of my entire belief system, was the 251 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,159 validity of the Bible. Again going back to being a fundamentalist. 252 00:15:14,279 --> 00:15:18,759 So once I realized that this book had been translated 253 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,559 thousands of times for thousands of different reasons and used 254 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:25,360 for thousands of different ways, it just kind of broke 255 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,120 down the rest. I mean, that was the pillar on 256 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:30,799 which the rest of my faith was resting. And so 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,600 that started the process. I remember walking through campus and 258 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:38,960 looking around and realizing is really what it was a 259 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:41,960 realization that I was not a Christian anymore? And I 260 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,080 knew nothing. I didn't know what to wear the next day. 261 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,360 I didn't know why I was brushing my teeth, I 262 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,200 didn't know why anything, what, anything, who anything? 263 00:15:51,039 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: Did you confide in anybody about all this or was 264 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,679 it always just buried. 265 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:59,919 Speaker 3: The deconversion part. Yeah, I think my friends at university 266 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,440 weren't as evangelical as I was, they were probably what 267 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,039 we would call cultural Christians, and so I didn't really 268 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,399 talk to them other than maybe a single conversation of 269 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:13,759 I don't think I feel like I need to go 270 00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:16,200 to church anymore. And they had already not really been 271 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,480 going to church, so they were fairly supportive. And because 272 00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:23,240 they weren't raised in such a high control environment, I 273 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:26,960 don't think they ever really understood I guess why I 274 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,039 was the way I was, so they were just kind 275 00:16:31,039 --> 00:16:35,879 of like, okay. And there were certainly other points along 276 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,720 the deconstruction journey when you know, maybe I would go 277 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:41,879 home for the holidays and have to come face to 278 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:44,279 face with my parents and tell them I'm not a 279 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:47,279 Christian anymore. Or my old high school friends who slowly 280 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,799 but surely started to kind of wean me out of 281 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,879 their circles, you know, blocking me on social media, only 282 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:56,440 to unblock me a decade later when they left the faith. 283 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,000 So that's been interesting. But I was certainly the first 284 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,480 one in my friend group who not only believed the 285 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:08,799 evangelical faith so fully but walked away from it. So 286 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,200 that was lonely. 287 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: That's a tough conversation with mom and dad they freak out. 288 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: My dad struggled. My dad struggled. My mom has been 289 00:17:19,799 --> 00:17:24,759 more supportive and understanding, but my dad really closely identifies 290 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,400 with his faith, and I don't think he has been 291 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:35,119 able to come to terms with my own realization of 292 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,319 my own journey without it being kind of an affront 293 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:39,039 to his own. 294 00:17:39,799 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: Or that, Hey, he trained up a child. What went 295 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:43,960 wrong that I failed? Did she fail? 296 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think he considers it his personal responsibility. 297 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:47,279 Speaker 2: You know. 298 00:17:47,319 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 3: I don't want to speak for him, but I think 299 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,519 he takes it personally that I walked away and again 300 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,559 he did his best. You know, I don't blame my parents. 301 00:17:56,839 --> 00:17:59,519 Speaker 2: In the last half of my conversation with Casey Malone, 302 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:01,759 I want to talk talk about identity. I want to 303 00:18:01,759 --> 00:18:06,400 talk about her inbox. She's got Christians, she's got some creeps, 304 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,880 and she's got some other folks who have sincere questions, 305 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,799 and she talks a lot about that and more. In 306 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:21,480 just a second hang on before I get into the 307 00:18:21,519 --> 00:18:24,920 final twenty minutes twenty five minutes of my conversation with 308 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,799 Casey Malone, I want to mention again that I've been 309 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:31,480 given the honor of joining a wonderful nonprofit called the 310 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,440 Creator Accountability Network. Now I'm not on the staff, I 311 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:39,319 actually signed up as a content creator. I want to 312 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,880 kind of lead by example. Here can does this. They 313 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,720 are dedicated to trying to reduce harassment and abuse, whether 314 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:51,240 it's in the online space or maybe in person. Somebody 315 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:55,079 feels like they have been slighted or harmed or abused 316 00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:58,200 in some way, and maybe in the past they got 317 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,000 frustrated because they didn't feel like or was anybody they 318 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:04,200 could tell, there was no path forward to try to 319 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,160 inform the content creator and educate them on what the 320 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:11,839 hell was wrong and how do we find restoration perhaps 321 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,920 even build off of that encounter. Not always possible, not 322 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,960 always possible, but I'm convinced that a lot of times 323 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:22,039 when somebody feels slighted or insulted, or you know, they 324 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:25,039 get creeped out or whatever, a lot of times there 325 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,279 is simply a misunderstanding, a lack of education. Maybe the 326 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,160 person is clueless as to what they did or said, 327 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,400 and they simply need to be educated. And I am 328 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,720 all about de escalation whenever possible. So you can go 329 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:42,359 to Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org and they can help to 330 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:46,559 make it right. De Escalation take a breath, Let's find 331 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:49,799 out what happened, Let's educate each other, and let's see 332 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,359 if there might be an opportunity to move forward and heal. 333 00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,440 That is my kind of party. CAN is also on 334 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,519 the hunt for volunteers from communities who can help. So 335 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,079 if you've got a skill or you've got time desire, 336 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,359 you can go to Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org to find 337 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,920 out about volunteer opportunities. And then, if you are a 338 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:13,880 content creator, are you no one who would like to 339 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,519 also lead by example? They can go to that same 340 00:20:16,519 --> 00:20:22,640 website to help us build safer communities together. Okay, let's 341 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,359 continue the long form audio version of my recent interview 342 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:33,759 with ex evangelical Casey Malone. Tell me about identity. Now, 343 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,920 you've emerged from the faith which informed your view of everything, 344 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:38,960 So now. 345 00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:42,279 Speaker 3: What you know. Part of the reason I really started 346 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:45,440 showing up online this year to talk about this is 347 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,319 for the version of myself twelve years ago who had 348 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,960 nothing and no one to really understand what I was 349 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,839 going through. And I think because of the intensity of 350 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,119 my upbringing and the lack of support, when I walked away, 351 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,000 I was very directionless. I was very much in the void. 352 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:06,279 Britt Hartley with No Nonsense Spirituality talks about navigating the 353 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,680 void after a deconversion quite a bit, and that phrase 354 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:14,160 really resonates with me navigating the void very much alone, 355 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,279 and so I think part of there's a lot of 356 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:20,920 conversation about once you deconstruct, you have to reconstruct your 357 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,319 identity as well, and to me that has become the 358 00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:29,559 more beautiful and motivational and meaningful part of my life. 359 00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:32,920 I love discovering who I am every single day. However, 360 00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:36,400 at first it was absolutely terrifying. At first, it was 361 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:41,240 so confusing, no grounding, and again that's kind of why 362 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:43,359 I show up and do what I do now, because 363 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,799 I would hope that it would become an easier process 364 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,240 for others. That's really important to me because it can 365 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,559 get pretty dark going from having everything figured out to nothing. 366 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:02,359 And so the rebuilding of identity interesting because one of 367 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,079 the things that I think a lot of people that 368 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,359 I've talked to end up discovering is how you can 369 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,359 deconstruct all the way down to nothing. And when we 370 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,319 I think for a lot of people who grew up 371 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,440 in such an environment and then walked away from it, 372 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,680 we can be a little bit more in tune with 373 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,319 the idea that all of our identity is constructed by 374 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,720 all of these systems of thought. So I talk about 375 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,240 these four main hierarchies, white supremacy, patriarchy, organized religion, and capitalism. 376 00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:32,039 All of these hierarchies are absolutely bombarding us everywhere we 377 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,880 go with these thought patterns that would uphold those hierarchies. 378 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,720 And deconstructing those is why I say it's an ongoing journey, 379 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,680 not a destination. We're not just done ever. And so 380 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,279 when we're kind of in tune with that, we realize 381 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,200 that our identities can be deconstructed all the way down. 382 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:53,359 And that is very jarring initially when you are clinging 383 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,440 to an identity for so long for safety security, even 384 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,960 in a lot of cases material resources. Right. And so 385 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:03,240 then we get to this point where all of that 386 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,640 identification is stripped away and we have nothing. We have 387 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,440 no values, we have no well, I mean, I think 388 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,319 part of it is just realizing that all of those 389 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,839 values and identifications were constructed by ourselves and our social environment. 390 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:24,880 So in recognizing that, it can become a beautiful and 391 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:29,920 empowering transformation of authenticity of this is who I am, 392 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,640 This is what I believe this is what I stand 393 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,640 up for, this is what I want to do with 394 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,839 my life, and that takes a level of courage that 395 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,440 in those first moments after the de identification process can 396 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,839 be really challenging. And so that's again kind of why 397 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,880 I love having these conversations is just at the very least, 398 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:51,519 letting people know that they're not alone, because I felt 399 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:54,119 so alone and I don't want that for anyone, And so, yeah, 400 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,599 I guess that's why we're here. Rebuilding that identity though, 401 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,400 can be really fun and exciting if we kind of 402 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:02,599 don't feel alone. I would imagine you don't. 403 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: Have to go here, but I'll set you up what changed, like, 404 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,319 give me the then and now, and you can go 405 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,039 point by. I don't care how you tackle. 406 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: Okay, sure, So I think that religious indoctrination and political 407 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,759 indoctrination go hand in hand. So from my own experience, 408 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,400 when I walked away from religious indoctrination, I did not 409 00:24:23,559 --> 00:24:26,519 really have the mental awareness that I was also walking 410 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:29,680 away from political indoctrination. Now, there's a lot of privilege 411 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,119 that's tied into that. As a white woman in the 412 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,200 middle of America, I didn't really have to face a 413 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,559 lot of the political consequences of essentially being raised on 414 00:24:38,599 --> 00:24:40,920 the religious right. You know, they go hand in hand, 415 00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:44,519 because what I've come to realize is that the way 416 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:47,920 we see reality working, the way we envision reality, whether 417 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,680 or not there's a creator being, how morality works, and 418 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,039 whether or not it's handed down from a creator being, 419 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,359 all of these different philosophical beliefs will manifest as our 420 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,359 political affiliation in a sense, not to parties, but just 421 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,359 in general. And so because I was able to kind 422 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,359 of set aside the political indoctrination, I wasn't really aware 423 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,039 of it. I did a lot of that internal I 424 00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:14,960 guess you could say more philosophical questioning, more existential questioning 425 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,839 at the beginning of my deconstruction journey, and pretty quickly 426 00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:23,039 I came around to, you know, being more of an 427 00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:25,880 ally to the LGBTQ community and being a you know, 428 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,759 identifying as a feminist and supporting the Black Lives Matter movement. 429 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:32,920 You know, those are all I would say, I don't 430 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,599 want to say superficial, but there weren't really the crux 431 00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:38,480 of the belief system that deep down I was kind 432 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:41,039 of raised in though, and it's only recently that i've 433 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,519 really been trying to analyze the beliefs that were both 434 00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:49,200 political and religious in nature, and so to me, the 435 00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:52,960 switch happened a little bit naturally, because once we start 436 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,480 to answer these bigger questions and maybe have a more 437 00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:01,839 human focused sense of morality and justice instead of divinely inspired, 438 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,319 I think a lot of these other I guess you 439 00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:09,880 could say opposing but very different political alignment kind of 440 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:14,519 comes forth emerges in a sense. So I think it's 441 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:18,119 incredibly important to have this conversation and for people who 442 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,400 are still in the Christian Church to realize that the 443 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,160 culture of a patriarchal religion, the culture of a divinely 444 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,160 inspired morality, those beliefs will manifest along the line as 445 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,720 the distribution of resources. And I try to get to 446 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:35,279 that point a lot, because as much as I enjoy 447 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,960 engaging in the more intellectual arguments about deconstruction and atheism 448 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:43,759 and talking about these existential questions like whether or not 449 00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,880 there's a creator being, I think what I really try 450 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,359 to get back to at the end, result of whatever 451 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,279 internal beliefs we have, those beliefs will trickle down and 452 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,160 end up manifesting. For example, when we believe that there 453 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,119 is a creator being who wants society to be a 454 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,359 certain way. If that's what you believe, that's going to 455 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,000 result and a distribution of power and therefore resources. And 456 00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:09,119 to me, that's the crux of why it's important to 457 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,720 have these conversations is I often say, you know, it's 458 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:14,759 not that I care what you believe. I care about 459 00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:18,200 what those beliefs result in. Right. So, if your belief 460 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:20,880 is that there's this creator being in the sky who 461 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,039 is gendered, he him who only wants this book to 462 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:27,400 be worshiped and therefore you know his son that he said, 463 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:30,799 that's great. Conceptually, that's not my business. Go ahead and 464 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,759 believe what you want. If that results in only Christians 465 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:37,039 being allowed citizenship, we have a problem. That's why I'm 466 00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:40,079 concerned with the rise of Christian nationalism, because when a 467 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,720 certain belief system has this level of hierarchy over others, 468 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,599 it's not so much about the belief it's about how 469 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,559 those resources are going to get distributed. That's why we 470 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,599 have social issues and social inequality and wealth inequality. It's 471 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,480 because a lot of these belief systems end up propping 472 00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:01,400 up these hierarchies of power, and so unfortunately, yeah, we 473 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,359 do have to talk about the belief itself, the core 474 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,920 ideological root of why certain people think it's okay to 475 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,480 just ignore people on the street, or to ignore people 476 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:14,200 of a certain skin tone, or to ignore people of 477 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,319 a different nationality. 478 00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: I see a tattoo on your arm. Is that like 479 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,640 you've desecrated the temple? Is that like a liberation exercise 480 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,519 once you busted out of the faith or was this 481 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:25,799 pre deconstruction? 482 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 3: No, the first tattoo after I broke free from the 483 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,680 faith was a moon. So very cliche, I guess, But 484 00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:38,079 I have many tattoos. This one might be my favorite. 485 00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:40,920 We're still working on it. It's a full sleeve and 486 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,640 it's the symbology of aphrodite and or venus. So I 487 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,559 have a wonderful tattoo artist. She's incredibly talented, and so yeah, 488 00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:53,720 it's kind of been an exercise in reclaiming some feminine divinity. 489 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:57,279 Speaker 2: I suppose tell me about the people who are reaching 490 00:28:57,319 --> 00:28:59,920 out to you now that you are in an activist space. 491 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:03,480 Tell me about your inbox? Maybe? Is the question? 492 00:29:04,319 --> 00:29:07,079 Speaker 3: You mean just in general, not specifically from the evangelicals. 493 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: No, I mean the people who found you because they're 494 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,119 having a no shit moment. In their own faith. 495 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,559 Speaker 3: That's been probably the most meaningful part of my work. 496 00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:20,359 My inbox is certainly flooded with a variety. I would 497 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,680 say the majority, well over sixty to seventy percent, are 498 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,559 people proselytizing their faith and trying to get me to 499 00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:31,240 reconvert or convert to a different religion. But I do 500 00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:34,440 get emails every once in a while from someone with 501 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,799 just a genuine thank you, or with a sincere question 502 00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:42,200 of advice, such as, I am realizing I'm an atheist, 503 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,079 but I'm I was married as an evangelical. How do 504 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:45,920 I tell my wife? 505 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:46,519 Speaker 2: Right? 506 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,319 Speaker 3: These very real human stories that I find the most 507 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:51,079 impactful and why I do what I do. I mean 508 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:54,279 again going back to if I can just help one person, 509 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,440 one version of Casey twelve years ago, ease the process 510 00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:00,559 a little bit better than it's totally worthwhile, and it's 511 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:04,039 worth all of the ridiculous emails I get. Of course, 512 00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:08,359 there's certainly been incredible opportunities to connect with other creators 513 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:11,119 in this space, like yourself for sure, But that's also 514 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,920 been really important to me as well, because we talk 515 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,480 about how important it is to build community and then 516 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:17,839 having it really kind of play out has just been 517 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,079 really kind of heartwarming. 518 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:23,119 Speaker 2: Tell me about the ridiculous emails. I'm all curious now 519 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,440 and how much of that is just straight up sexism? 520 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,079 Speaker 3: A lot of it is sexism, A lot of it 521 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:32,000 is even There have been I can think of more 522 00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:36,480 than one email of someone, and oftentimes a scholar, a 523 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,279 very well informed man, telling me this or that and 524 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,279 the other, and telling me that because I said that 525 00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:47,920 I think I'm gorgeous one time on a live stream, 526 00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:50,200 that they just can't listen to me anymore, can't believe 527 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,839 how vain a am, and all of you know, absolutely 528 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:57,960 apparently offensive statement to make, right, but I would say 529 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,119 in large part most of them are still trying to proselytize. 530 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,720 And unfortunately I just don't read those emails, so I 531 00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:06,640 don't get into the nuts and bolts of an email 532 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400 this long that's telling me all about how I'm wrong. 533 00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:11,880 I'm just you know, I'm busy. I'm here for the 534 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,400 people who might send me an email this long talking 535 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,920 about their life and their struggles and you know what 536 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,000 advice they might need or just a genuine thank you, 537 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,720 things like that. But yeah, otherwise I don't you can't 538 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,119 read all the comments. You can't do it, It'll drive 539 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:25,680 you crazy. 540 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: I'll ask the question. I know my listeners are probably 541 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,039 wanting me to ask. You say I'm gorgeous? Are you 542 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:35,319 an egomaniac? Or have you just retaken your power? 543 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,319 Speaker 3: It's a little bit of both, right, But I have 544 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,079 to recognize that under the system in which we live, 545 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:45,960 the female body is commodified, and I do recognize that 546 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,960 it is a certain kind of currency. And at the 547 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,680 same time, if I don't kind of step into that 548 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,240 power and embrace what it means to live with this 549 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,960 kind of body and this system, it will be used 550 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,359 against me in ways to harm others. Because I know 551 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,400 that in kind of the public eye there is kind 552 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,119 of a responsibility to kind of be aware of these things. 553 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:08,799 But at the end of the day, I've done enough 554 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,079 apologizing for how I look. I've done enough apologizing for 555 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:15,880 existing as a female, as a woman whatever they want 556 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,440 to call it. And so again this kind of goes 557 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,119 back to I've kind of been saying this because the 558 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,279 girl twelve years ago, the girl twenty years ago, she 559 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,279 did not think she was pretty, and unfortunately that matters 560 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:29,920 how you doing. 561 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,079 Speaker 2: Come on, you miss it. 562 00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:40,799 Speaker 3: There are nostalgic aspects to having a community so closely knit. 563 00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:45,079 And there's also a component of whenever my family life 564 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:49,599 got difficult, I had this community of evangelical Christians there 565 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,559 with me who kind of became my new family. And 566 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:55,200 I miss the people. They do not think they can 567 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,400 be unequally yoked with unbelievers, and therefore I'm not really 568 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,680 an option for them to be a friend. However, I 569 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,720 miss them very dearly, and I respect that that's where 570 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920 they're at. I think a lot of especially the things 571 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,279 I say online, I think it can be pretty almost 572 00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:16,640 scary to kind of come face to face with the 573 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,400 internal cognitive dissonance. And I'm just kind of like a 574 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,680 walking embodiment of that. So people have reached out to 575 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,440 me from my past. There have been people who have 576 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,480 reached out and said, hey, you were right all along. 577 00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:28,880 There have been people who have apologized for blocking me 578 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,640 and kind of ostracizing me and realizing that they don't 579 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,559 believe the environment we were raised in as accurate as either. 580 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,000 There have been those people, and that's always impactful. 581 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:41,559 Speaker 2: You may have expanded their horizons as to what a 582 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:42,559 non believer is. 583 00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 3: I think it almost becomes a more humanized concept of 584 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,599 walking away from the faith when it's someone you love dearly, 585 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:55,519 because as children were told of these non believers and 586 00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:57,960 they're just out there, they're not part of the church, 587 00:33:58,039 --> 00:33:59,799 they're not in the class as we grew up in. 588 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,039 We don't know them. But when it is someone we know, 589 00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:08,119 it creates a more human element to This is someone 590 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:11,079 I love and know dearly, and they don't believe in 591 00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:14,280 the same things as me anymore. So of course, initially 592 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,800 that always looks like, well, I have to bring them 593 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,559 back into the fold. I was very often proselytized by 594 00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:22,519 my closest friends and that was difficult for me, and 595 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,320 I imagine it was difficult for them because we're both 596 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,239 kind of trying to navigate, well, can we still have 597 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,360 a friendship now, because your belief and identity doesn't really 598 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:35,880 leave room for people who think differently than you. I 599 00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:40,039 think that we can still maintain friendships. A lot of 600 00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:42,440 people are dealing with this though. We are all coming 601 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,639 to terms with people who have different religious and or 602 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,119 political identification, and it is challenging for a lot of 603 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:54,320 families right now in this political landscape. Really, but yeah, 604 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,719 I think seeing someone you know walk away from the 605 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,239 faith brings a more human element to it, and it does. 606 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,480 It did kind of I think inspire a few of them, 607 00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:05,239 at least a few of them told me that. 608 00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:08,039 Speaker 2: Tell me about your head and your heart space. As 609 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:10,840 a non believer, you're supposed to be miserable and sad 610 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,440 and riderless and whatever. 611 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,079 Speaker 3: I've never felt so simultaneously myself and compassionate for others. 612 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,239 I never had this level of empathy as a Christian. 613 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,199 They were just wrong. They were non believers. They didn't understand. 614 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,519 I have a depth of understanding and compassion that I'm 615 00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:36,719 not perfect at, but that I genuinely feel is a 616 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,559 lot more authentic, and it brings actual meaning and value 617 00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:44,280 to my life. I feel very aligned with my self 618 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,559 defined purpose of helping others as much as possible. And 619 00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:49,679 I just did not have that as a Christian. I 620 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:50,239 just didn't. 621 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,199 Speaker 2: What would you say to somebody who's going through that 622 00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,400 uh oh moment or where things aren't lining up and 623 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,960 they stumble upon you, you're over coffee, they watch your channel, 624 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:02,639 What would just say to somebody who's in a journey, 625 00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:04,000 even if they can't define it. 626 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 3: For someone who is beginning to question their environment and 627 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,840 their belief system, and ultimately their identity. I would say 628 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:19,679 that the parts of you you love are you, and 629 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,000 not what you've been told to believe. The parts of 630 00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:27,480 you that is good and kind, I think are you 631 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,880 and not because you were told by a book. And 632 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,519 I think that everything you've ever accomplished was because you 633 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:39,920 are worth accomplishing it, not because a creator being allowed 634 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,440 you to accomplish it. I think that is something I 635 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,239 would have liked to hear. 636 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: Okay, I will link to Case's YouTube page in the 637 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,559 description box of the broadcast. I hope you enjoyed. I'll 638 00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:59,280 see you back here next week. Be safe, Take care. 639 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter. 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