WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.160 Hello, and welcome to the Texas trib Cast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:22.239 September sixteenth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff Law and politics reporter, alongside 3 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:24.839 as always editor in chief Matthew Watkins. 4 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:26.839 Welcome back, Thank you. 5 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:32.759 I was extraordinarily tempted to not return to work after 6 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:35.719 a couple of weeks off. I will tell you this, 7 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:37.320 though I. 8 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:39.240 Was in Europe and I've heard of it. 9 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:43.119 I am alarmed to tell you that the Europeans very 10 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:44.719 aware of Texas redistricting. 11 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:46.439 Interesting. 12 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:48.640 I promise I did not bring this up. 13 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:49.479 I promise. 14 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.439 Say you're from Texas, you know Texas first of all 15 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:54.479 the reactions it gets. I was with a traveling other 16 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:56.479 friend from New York. It's like the two places people 17 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:01.159 know in New York Texas, and and got a lot 18 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:03.880 of reactions, a lot like oh man, Texas, Like oh 19 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:07.760 what's going on there? Nothing makes me more patriotic or 20 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:12.000 more Texas might bring my Texas allegiance out more than 21 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:15.000 a European trying to tell me that they don't like 22 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:16.359 how we're doing things here. 23 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:21.439 Yeah, yeah, I feel that it used to be they 24 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:24.799 would associate it with George Bush. You know, they'd be like, oh, yeah, 25 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.840 you must be like a George Bush guy. Apparently now 26 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:30.000 it's redistrict team, right. 27 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.719 Yeah, yeah, and again in Europe, I am a George 28 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:36.200 Bush guy. You know. Don't try and tell me how 29 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.159 to feel about my elected officials. Yeah, yeah, no, So 30 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.040 that was very alarming. I tried to escape it. I 31 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:42.359 could not. 32 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:45.519 Well, that sounds that's terrible, especially Germans. 33 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:47.959 The Germans very alarmed about everything. I was like, yeah, 34 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.359 I gotta calm down a little bit. It's not really, 35 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:53.840 it's gonna be fine anyway. That's not what we're here 36 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.519 to talk about this week. We have for finally, at 37 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.400 lease a little bit moved on from the redistricting haha 38 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.920 and have found ourselves in another, you know, major national 39 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.680 news story here in Texas. So this week we're going 40 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.800 to be digging into sort of the college campus free 41 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:14.560 speech wars that we've seen really bubbling up over the 42 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:19.400 last couple of years that has culminated, perhaps that's optimistic 43 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:22.879 in an incident with Texas A and M where a 44 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:25.960 professor was fired after a confrontation with a student over 45 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:30.439 gender identity content in a children's literature course. You know, 46 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:33.199 this is just the latest in an ongoing series of 47 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:36.520 clashes at Texas A and M at Texas universities more 48 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:42.439 generally nationally, on college campuses over diversity, equity and inclusion, 49 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.199 gender identity, what is taught and who can say? 50 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.280 What you know? 51 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:52.199 Similarly, the day after this incident, a Texas State professor 52 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.280 was fired after he was accused of inciting violence while 53 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.479 speaking at a socialism conference. So just a lot happening 54 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:02.120 all at once. So joining us to talk through the 55 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:05.520 nuances of these issues is Texas Tribune Higher ed reporter 56 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:06.560 Jessica Priest. 57 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.560 Jessica, thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. 58 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.319 Jessica is actually in Indiana this time. 59 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:14.680 YEA. 60 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.360 Loyal listeners of the podcast will know that snaeha last 61 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.240 week I accused of being in Indiana, which he was 62 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.719 actually in Illinois, So we said, Jessica to. 63 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.159 Indiana, to Indiana, just to make sure we had one. 64 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.840 We are also joined by Zach Greenberg, faculty legal defense 65 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.520 counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Where 66 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:36.159 are you, Zach. 67 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:38.919 We're in the great city of Philadelphia. 68 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:43.759 Thanks for having me. H, that's not Indiana or Illinois 69 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:49.960 or Texas City Champions. Yeah, Jessica, let's start with you, 70 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.159 and maybe you can sort of just give us an 71 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.879 overview of what happened and where things stand with Texas 72 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:55.479 A and M. 73 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:01.120 Oh gosh, where did we get? Okay? So I think 74 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:08.080 it was Monday. State Representative Brian Harrison tweeted started a 75 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:13.280 Twitter thread where he shared a video that was taken 76 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:18.000 in a course, a literature course at Texas A and m. 77 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.879 It's important to note that the video and the class 78 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:26.360 in question that he shows happened over the summer. So 79 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.439 it was a summer class, and it was about children's literature, 80 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:35.639 and it was for college students, for juniors and seniors 81 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:40.839 in college, not children. And the video depicts it doesn't 82 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.720 show anyone's face, but it's clear from watching the video 83 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:49.120 you hear a student talking to the professor and you know, 84 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:55.920 respectfully asking or asking or confronting her about why she 85 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:00.279 is teaching about gender in the course. The student says 86 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:05.120 that it's, you know, against her religious beliefs and argues 87 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:10.720 that it's also against President Trump's executive order. We haven't 88 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.879 spoken with the student, but I believe she's referring to 89 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:21.360 an executive order the president issued in January that basically says, 90 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:25.480 you know, the federal government only recognizes two genders and 91 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:32.160 instructs the federal agencies directs them to not fund any 92 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:40.319 projects that, in his view, would promote gender ideology. So 93 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.600 it's not this executive order is not a law. I 94 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.040 think that's also important for people to know. So my 95 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:52.040 reporting has been that there is no federal or state 96 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.240 law that prohibits, you know, a college professor from teaching 97 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.319 about gender. That was a very long. 98 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:04.399 Explation that being said Brian Harrison, the state representative who 99 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:10.399 posted this, who is an aggie and also perhaps the 100 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:14.120 most conservative member of a very conservative. 101 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:19.920 Legislature and a social media recontoire right right like he is, 102 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:23.360 gets much of what he is known for is sort 103 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.439 of identifying these things on college campus, is highlighting and 104 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.720 demanding for significant penalties, including firing. 105 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.439 Right and has has been pretty effective, particularly at his 106 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.199 alma mater, of drawing attention to these things and bringing 107 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:41.319 changes to it, really pushing the idea that these universities, 108 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:46.040 particularly A and M, in his mind, are promoting an 109 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.040 ideology that doesn't align with the values of the state 110 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.560 or or what he thinks the university should be teaching, 111 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.480 and therefore that you know, what he would call in 112 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:01.079 doctor nation should be should be stopped and eliminated, especially right, 113 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:01.399 and in. 114 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:03.720 This case he did sort of by escalating this. He 115 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.399 called for or Jessica to talk a little about like 116 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.720 what the HR side of this, Like what happened then 117 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.439 in terms of penalties. 118 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:11.360 Yeah. 119 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:15.439 So in the tweet thread, so in addition to the 120 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.360 video of the student, you know where you hear the 121 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:22.959 student and the professor talking, he also shared what appears 122 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.680 to be like a recording of either a phone call 123 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:30.120 or an in person meeting with the university president, President 124 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:36.920 Mark Welsh. And in the video, President Welsh appears to 125 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.120 defend the teacher or the professor and what she's teaching 126 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:45.879 and initially tell the student that, you know, it's not happening. 127 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.560 Firing her is not going to be happening. It's important 128 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:51.759 to note that we don't have the full conversation, We 129 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.279 don't know the full context, but you know, it appears 130 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:01.800 that he initially was was hesitant to discipline in this case. 131 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:06.360 But after the so that conversation we believe took place 132 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:11.199 like over the summer, and then this tweet was in September, 133 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:17.319 and you know, within days of this kind of going viral, 134 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:21.759 he appears to have changed his mind and demoted the 135 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:27.279 dean and the department head and ultimately he terminated the 136 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.519 professor in this In this case, and the cited reason 137 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.440 was that the course did not align with the course 138 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.840 content did not align with the course catalog description. He said, 139 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:46.559 it's it's about academic responsibility rather than academic freedom, Like 140 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.399 we students should, I guess when they're looking at the 141 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:55.159 catalog know what they're signing up for. So yeah, Zach, let's. 142 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.519 Bring you in on this. I mean, what what do 143 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.320 you sort of make of this whole incident and the 144 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.279 you know, this students argument, the faculty argument, and the 145 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:03.519 administrator's argument. 146 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.440 Yeah, we defend academic freedom here at Fire, the idea 147 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:13.600 that professors have the right to discuss these controversial issues 148 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:17.159 in class areas, within their expertise and any breathing room 149 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:19.759 to discuss these issues. And it's really sad to see 150 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.799 professors being fired for their in class teaching and pedagogy. 151 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:26.759 I know there was a dispute with the student and 152 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.240 the professor about what exactly the law was the student's 153 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.600 disruption in class, but we do feel that universities should 154 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.080 resolve these issues taking a new account the societal importance 155 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.159 we have for academic freedom and the free change of 156 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:43.200 ideas at a public university bound by the First Amendment. 157 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:46.559 Zach, I want to ask you a little bit about 158 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:49.159 to kind of dive into this question of First Amendment 159 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:52.600 freedom of speech and academic freedom and how that kind 160 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.039 of fits in there, right, because we, of course know 161 00:09:55.159 --> 00:10:00.639 the First Amendment protects people's right to say things, including 162 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.960 things that are offensive, and not be punished by the 163 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:08.120 government for it, except for you know, small example of 164 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.720 the whole like yelling fire in the crowded movie theater 165 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.320 and all that kind of stuff. But then there's the 166 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:18.679 separate kind of conversation around academic freedom, right, and this 167 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.519 idea of not wanting the government to interfere too much 168 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:25.639 with the the you know, what's being taught and what's 169 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.440 being researched. I mean, this is a state school. How 170 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:36.559 does the concept of academic freedom fit into the You know, 171 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:39.720 this isn't a professor who got fired for going out 172 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:41.919 on the street and saying something offensive. This is something 173 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.080 that was said. Yeah, we're going to get to that 174 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:47.240 that this was something that was said in the classroom. 175 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:51.360 So how, if at all, should we or the courts 176 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.240 look at how that played out. 177 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:59.679 Yeah, the Supreme Court said that academic freedom is a 178 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.000 spectual concern of the First Amendment, which doesn't tolerate laws 179 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.159 that cast a palid orthodoxy on the classroom. And the 180 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.600 general idea is that academic institutions in America should be 181 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:15.480 places where students and professors are the most free to 182 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.879 discuss their ideas, more so than any other institution in 183 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:20.159 our society, just because of the purpose of the university 184 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:23.759 and the importance of these institutions to our society. And 185 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.840 so when it comes to these disputes of what professors 186 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.639 say in class, you know, the professors teaching and their research, 187 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.399 and there the main discussion of ideas that's really the. 188 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:35.360 Core of their job. 189 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.799 Dute is their job responsibilities, and they're trying to engage 190 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.559 our students to try to get them to discuss these 191 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:46.679 ideas and really participate in these debates we're having in 192 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:51.000 our society. And for a university to fire professor for 193 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.519 having this discussion, even if it may be offensive to 194 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.840 students or controversial out there, it's really the opposite of 195 00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.799 the goals of the university. 196 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.799 And that use a free speech and academic freedom. 197 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.320 How does that break down though, because I think that 198 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.240 there's there is a question here in this case about 199 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.480 was she teaching what she should have been teaching in 200 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.480 the course? Right? I am also a text saying a. 201 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.559 Graduate, we we've made it what eight minutes before? 202 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.000 Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. 203 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.480 Yes, it's been a very long time since I've been 204 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.039 in the classroom, and I know a lot of things 205 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.639 have changed, But I do remember a very specific class 206 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.480 at A and M. It was a philosophy class, I 207 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.879 think maybe even an intro to philosophy class, and it 208 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:39.559 was taught by a lecturer whose research interest was truth commissions, 209 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.440 you know, this whole like you know, South Africa or 210 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.360 other places having these and their effectiveness and everything like that, 211 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.840 and she decided that this course was going to be 212 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:53.679 about that as opposed to like more broad philosophy, which 213 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:56.120 it was an interesting course, it was also not the 214 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.559 course I signed up for. And it doesn't seem like 215 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:04.159 completely unreasonable for a you know, AA student to be 216 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.159 upset about something like that and be for a school 217 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.039 to be like, no, you need to like teach what's 218 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.080 actually like on the syllabus and what we're asking you 219 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:19.360 to teach here that seems to be somewhat the case 220 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.360 that Welsh the President is arguing is that she didn't 221 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.399 teach how this course was advertised. How do you sort 222 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.320 of see that factor in this conversation. 223 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.759 Yeah, you're right, and that if you have a physics 224 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:36.320 professor and all they do is talk about political issues 225 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.159 the entire time, I think you can make an argument 226 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.240 the professor is not teaching the course as it's supposed 227 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:44.559 to be taught, actually, depending on what is in the 228 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.440 syllabus and what is the purpose of the course. And 229 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.639 of course backing members need some breathing room to go 230 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:51.960 off topics some of the time, just to share their 231 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.320 expertise and make the class a little more engaging. 232 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:56.480 And our argument is. 233 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.879 That the determination of what is taught and how it 234 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.600 should be taught, that's to be made at the university 235 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.679 academic faculty level, right at cheap, a determination by the 236 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:09.279 factory member that apartment and share the people who are 237 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.919 most well versed and experts in this category. It was 238 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.080 made by administrative politician. You can see that can be 239 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.559 very easily abused to target professors who talk about controversial issues. 240 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:21.039 So you're right, it's definitely an issue. 241 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:23.759 It's definitely a limited academic freedom of not teaching the 242 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.320 class as advertised, not giving students proper notice of what's 243 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.919 being taught. But if that is going to be a 244 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.799 determination the professor is unfit to teach, that should be 245 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:34.679 at the academic level. 246 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.679 I mean, just to sort of widen this out beyond 247 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.360 this incident, I mean, we have seen I mean, if 248 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:41.879 you just take chexas A and M, we've seen a 249 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.000 lot of these classes. But also, you know, statewide and nationally, 250 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.120 why are college campus is such sort of hotbeds of 251 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.559 these free speech issues? And it has that always been 252 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:55.200 the case, or are we seeing are we in a 253 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.000 moment of particular clashes? 254 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.320 I guess I think it's really always been the case. 255 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.720 You can think at stories about the founding fathers, you know, 256 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.279 raising hell fare universities, the first free speed zones to 257 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:09.559 put in place at the combat protests against the Vietnam War. 258 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:13.159 So I think the university has really always been areas 259 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.759 where students and factor members feel free to express themselves 260 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:22.399 and discuss their ideas, and naturally then involves some opposition 261 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.240 from those on campus and off campus too. Is happy 262 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.320 at the universities because they are taxpayer funded, right, They're 263 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.360 part of our communities, part of our society, and so 264 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.440 you're always going to see the precarious situation of universities 265 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.600 in our society how they operate. Which is why having 266 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.159 academic freedom for both the institution and for the individual 267 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.559 professor is so important because in many ways they are kind. 268 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:45.679 Of majoritarian principles. 269 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.360 Right, we have this freedom to discuss ideas that are 270 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.840 controversial at our offensive we're talking about things that everyone 271 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.480 agrees with. Tops two equals four, the sky is blue. 272 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:55.919 You don't need academic freedom of free speech. You need 273 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.919 it when you do draw the ire of politicians and 274 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:01.279 government officials who want. 275 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:03.679 To censor you. Disic. 276 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.519 I wonder what you make of Welsh's specific argument here. 277 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:09.279 I mean, we talked about it like how it could 278 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.080 present a different case. On the other hand, you know, 279 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.159 the firing happened months after the incident happened, as you mentioned, Jessica, 280 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.799 And also you know, I think there are probably a 281 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.120 lot of people within the INN faculty and another university 282 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.759 saying like, Okay, is this actually the reason or is 283 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.679 this a convenient excuse to get rid of someone who 284 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:33.440 is bringing a lot of intense political pressure to the 285 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.799 university from people like Brian Harrison, but even more so 286 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.720 from folks like Governor Greg Abbott who has tweeted about 287 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:45.840 this and other leaders. They don't want this kind of 288 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:47.200 attention right now. 289 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:57.480 Yeah, So your question is what I make of. 290 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:58.480 His decision and his explanation for the decision. 291 00:16:58.559 --> 00:16:59.200 Yeah. 292 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.600 Yeah, I think that university presidents, I mean I would 293 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:08.160 not want President Welsh's job right now, in a very 294 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.839 difficult job. So it's like he has kind of he 295 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.640 has a lot of constituents, right, so he I feel 296 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:20.119 like he needs to make lawmakers happy to keep his job, 297 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.839 but he also needs the trust of the faculty and 298 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.920 so so I think he that may be why he 299 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:31.759 decided what he decided. 300 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:37.759 He also the very conservative Board of regents. 301 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.039 Shows like who has the power here? 302 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:38.400 Right? 303 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.839 Is like too, you know, event should just sort of 304 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.880 say like well this and again, based like you said, 305 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.039 on the limited view we have of this meeting where 306 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.160 he originally said like we're not going to fire this 307 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.160 this professor, then we have a social media backlash led 308 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.519 by state lawmakers and the governor and others, and then 309 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.359 the professor is fired. It's like it shows like the 310 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.160 levers of power that that influence. 311 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.119 Until I started reporting on Higher Ed, like I didn't 312 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:13.119 really understand all those levers, and I think it's important 313 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:17.200 for people to know that, Like, you know, these boards 314 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:21.039 of regents are appointed by the governors, so there in 315 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.720 many cases like in lockstep with him. 316 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:29.279 And this comes after a legislative session where once again 317 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.400 Higher Ed sort of saw some of it's some of 318 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:36.440 that freedom curtailed. In Texas, they passed a The law 319 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.759 goes into effect in January, so it's not in effect yet, 320 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.039 but there will be a law in effect that gainst regents, 321 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.480 you know, these govern governor appointed regents more control over curriculum. 322 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.279 This comes after they banned any programs related to diversity, 323 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.279 equity inclusion at colleges and universities. I mean, really seeing 324 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:58.319 a tightening of you know, of the control over what 325 00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:58.880 is taught. 326 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.279 It's been amazing to watch how much the governance and 327 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.200 culture has changed these universities in recent years. I mean 328 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.480 going back to twenty nineteen when lawmakers passed their sort 329 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.960 of free speech on campus bill, and that bill was passed, 330 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.160 you know, largely out of concern that conservative voices were 331 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.200 sort of being shouted down and that they needed to 332 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.680 be protected, and that you know, administrators and professors and 333 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.599 other leaders at the universities were too liberal. We had 334 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.559 twenty twenty happen after that, you know, the George Floyd protests, 335 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:35.480 the reactions there, and there's just been so much of 336 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:39.400 a swing back, whether it's who's leading these universities. You've 337 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.319 seen a lot of different university presidents leave and politicians, 338 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.279 very conservative politicians being put in a lot of those 339 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:53.119 major you know, president or chancellor positions you have, you know, 340 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.440 new you mentioned the DEI rules, some of these rules 341 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.279 about what can and can apt be taught, and just 342 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.119 a much swifter reaction to you know, any kind of 343 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.960 incident like this, It does very much seem whether it's 344 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.279 at Texas A and M, whether it's at Texas State 345 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.319 with the professor you mentioned earlier, there was an incident 346 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:19.119 on the Texas Tech campus where a student was expelled 347 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:24.759 very quickly and removed after you know, saying admittedly some 348 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:29.319 pretty terrible things about the death of Charlie Kirk on campus, right, 349 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.119 but the swiftness at which these administrators are taking action 350 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.039 really feels like, Jessica, it has created a sort of 351 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.440 culture change on these campuses in just like the past 352 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:43.920 like half decade. Would you agree with that? 353 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.759 Yes, I would agree with that. Yeah, and just a 354 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.920 small correction, Eleanor like the law that you're mentioning, Senate 355 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.240 Bill thirty seven, part of it has gone into effect, 356 00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.640 and that part the part of the law that has 357 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:05.400 gone into effect basically either did away or significantly weakened. 358 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:13.720 Like faculty representative bodies in higher ed so they're largely 359 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.319 I mean, they've always been an advisory but they were 360 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:21.519 elected by their other faculty members and advised the administration 361 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:27.440 on academic matters, and now their power is significantly weakened. 362 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:28.720 Zach. 363 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:32.000 Have you felt this sort of pendulum swing and sort 364 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:33.640 of free speech at the center of all of this. 365 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:36.039 Yeah, it's almost like a political football, right. 366 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.559 It's like whatever party is in power, whatever they believe 367 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.440 the situation to be, they're gonna most likely abuse the 368 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.680 free speech rights of those around them. It's almost like 369 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:46.839 the parties don't really have any principles at all. That is, 370 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.039 you know, it's all about the raw power, and so 371 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:56.319 free speech ideally should be this societal wide neutral principle, 372 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.359 general applicability that it protects everybody equally no matter who 373 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.680 you are, what you say. But we're seeing free speech 374 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:06.039 kind of be warped into a rallying cry for those 375 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.720 outside of power, and then once they get in there, 376 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.720 it's just everyone's a nail and there a hammer, and 377 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.319 they see this happening, you know right now. He turned 378 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:16.119 out on the Natate of America right saying that in 379 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.480 a prosecute hate speech, like it's happening right before our eyes. 380 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:20.759 That could be a woke talking point five years ago, 381 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.799 and it's happening, you know that September sixteenth, you know, 382 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.880 twenty twenty five. So yeah, we're literally seeing it in 383 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:31.039 our in our lifetimes, our in our very short political light. 384 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:33.359 What should I say? 385 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.359 You know, time spans over here that like, yeah, this 386 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.319 issue is being very warped. And I think it would 387 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:44.400 be worthwhile for university presidents, especially politicians who support universities, 388 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.160 to have a backbone to be principal, to support free speech, 389 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:48.960 even for those that they disagree with. 390 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.400 I mean, I think you mentioned already, Charlie Kirk. I 391 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.559 mean I think a historian, you know, over the last 392 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.720 that half decade even longer, like a real character in 393 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:05.559 these debates, you know, Kirk obviously a right wing political 394 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:09.440 activist who was assassinated last week in Utah while on 395 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.039 a college campus, sort of doing what he became best 396 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.279 known for, which was hosting these debates and coming to 397 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.519 college campuses really trying to, you know, I think, in 398 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.119 some ways, whether intentionally or not, like test the limits 399 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.480 of these free speech protections for views that maybe are 400 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:26.680 not as widely accepted on college campuses. Zach, can you 401 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:28.920