1 00:00:14,199 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas trib Cast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:22,239 September sixteenth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff Law and politics reporter, alongside 3 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,839 as always editor in chief Matthew Watkins. 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,839 Speaker 2: Welcome back, Thank you. 5 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:32,759 Speaker 1: I was extraordinarily tempted to not return to work after 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,719 a couple of weeks off. I will tell you this, 7 00:00:35,759 --> 00:00:37,320 though I. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 2: Was in Europe and I've heard of it. 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,119 Speaker 1: I am alarmed to tell you that the Europeans very 10 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:44,719 aware of Texas redistricting. 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:46,439 Speaker 3: Interesting. 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: I promise I did not bring this up. 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 4: I promise. 14 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:52,439 Speaker 1: Say you're from Texas, you know Texas first of all 15 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:54,479 the reactions it gets. I was with a traveling other 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,479 friend from New York. It's like the two places people 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,159 know in New York Texas, and and got a lot 18 00:01:01,159 --> 00:01:03,880 of reactions, a lot like oh man, Texas, Like oh 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,760 what's going on there? Nothing makes me more patriotic or 20 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:12,000 more Texas might bring my Texas allegiance out more than 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,000 a European trying to tell me that they don't like 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,359 how we're doing things here. 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I feel that it used to be they 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,799 would associate it with George Bush. You know, they'd be like, oh, yeah, 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,840 you must be like a George Bush guy. Apparently now 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,000 it's redistrict team, right. 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and again in Europe, I am a George 28 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:36,200 Bush guy. You know. Don't try and tell me how 29 00:01:36,239 --> 00:01:39,159 to feel about my elected officials. Yeah, yeah, no, So 30 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,040 that was very alarming. I tried to escape it. I 31 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:42,359 could not. 32 00:01:43,159 --> 00:01:45,519 Speaker 2: Well, that sounds that's terrible, especially Germans. 33 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:47,959 Speaker 1: The Germans very alarmed about everything. I was like, yeah, 34 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:50,359 I gotta calm down a little bit. It's not really, 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,840 it's gonna be fine anyway. That's not what we're here 36 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,519 to talk about this week. We have for finally, at 37 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,400 lease a little bit moved on from the redistricting haha 38 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,920 and have found ourselves in another, you know, major national 39 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,680 news story here in Texas. So this week we're going 40 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,800 to be digging into sort of the college campus free 41 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,560 speech wars that we've seen really bubbling up over the 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,400 last couple of years that has culminated, perhaps that's optimistic 43 00:02:20,479 --> 00:02:22,879 in an incident with Texas A and M where a 44 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:25,960 professor was fired after a confrontation with a student over 45 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,439 gender identity content in a children's literature course. You know, 46 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:33,199 this is just the latest in an ongoing series of 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,520 clashes at Texas A and M at Texas universities more 48 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,439 generally nationally, on college campuses over diversity, equity and inclusion, 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,199 gender identity, what is taught and who can say? 50 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 5: What you know? 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,199 Speaker 1: Similarly, the day after this incident, a Texas State professor 52 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,280 was fired after he was accused of inciting violence while 53 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:58,479 speaking at a socialism conference. So just a lot happening 54 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,120 all at once. So joining us to talk through the 55 00:03:02,199 --> 00:03:05,520 nuances of these issues is Texas Tribune Higher ed reporter 56 00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:06,560 Jessica Priest. 57 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 4: Jessica, thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. 58 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,319 Speaker 3: Jessica is actually in Indiana this time. 59 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: YEA. 60 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 3: Loyal listeners of the podcast will know that snaeha last 61 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,240 week I accused of being in Indiana, which he was 62 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:24,719 actually in Illinois, So we said, Jessica to. 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,159 Speaker 1: Indiana, to Indiana, just to make sure we had one. 64 00:03:28,719 --> 00:03:31,840 We are also joined by Zach Greenberg, faculty legal defense 65 00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:35,520 counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Where 66 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,159 are you, Zach. 67 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:38,919 Speaker 2: We're in the great city of Philadelphia. 68 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,759 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. H, that's not Indiana or Illinois 69 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:49,960 or Texas City Champions. Yeah, Jessica, let's start with you, 70 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,159 and maybe you can sort of just give us an 71 00:03:51,199 --> 00:03:54,879 overview of what happened and where things stand with Texas 72 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:55,479 A and M. 73 00:03:56,639 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, where did we get? Okay? So I think 74 00:04:01,159 --> 00:04:08,080 it was Monday. State Representative Brian Harrison tweeted started a 75 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,280 Twitter thread where he shared a video that was taken 76 00:04:14,599 --> 00:04:18,000 in a course, a literature course at Texas A and m. 77 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,879 It's important to note that the video and the class 78 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:26,360 in question that he shows happened over the summer. So 79 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,439 it was a summer class, and it was about children's literature, 80 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,639 and it was for college students, for juniors and seniors 81 00:04:35,639 --> 00:04:40,839 in college, not children. And the video depicts it doesn't 82 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,720 show anyone's face, but it's clear from watching the video 83 00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:49,120 you hear a student talking to the professor and you know, 84 00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:55,920 respectfully asking or asking or confronting her about why she 85 00:04:56,079 --> 00:05:00,279 is teaching about gender in the course. The student says 86 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:05,120 that it's, you know, against her religious beliefs and argues 87 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:10,720 that it's also against President Trump's executive order. We haven't 88 00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:14,879 spoken with the student, but I believe she's referring to 89 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:21,360 an executive order the president issued in January that basically says, 90 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:25,480 you know, the federal government only recognizes two genders and 91 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:32,160 instructs the federal agencies directs them to not fund any 92 00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:40,319 projects that, in his view, would promote gender ideology. So 93 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,600 it's not this executive order is not a law. I 94 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:48,040 think that's also important for people to know. So my 95 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:52,040 reporting has been that there is no federal or state 96 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,240 law that prohibits, you know, a college professor from teaching 97 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,319 about gender. That was a very long. 98 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,399 Speaker 3: Explation that being said Brian Harrison, the state representative who 99 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:10,399 posted this, who is an aggie and also perhaps the 100 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:14,120 most conservative member of a very conservative. 101 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: Legislature and a social media recontoire right right like he is, 102 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,360 gets much of what he is known for is sort 103 00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:26,439 of identifying these things on college campus, is highlighting and 104 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,720 demanding for significant penalties, including firing. 105 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:33,439 Speaker 3: Right and has has been pretty effective, particularly at his 106 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,199 alma mater, of drawing attention to these things and bringing 107 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,319 changes to it, really pushing the idea that these universities, 108 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:46,040 particularly A and M, in his mind, are promoting an 109 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,040 ideology that doesn't align with the values of the state 110 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,560 or or what he thinks the university should be teaching, 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,480 and therefore that you know, what he would call in 112 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,079 doctor nation should be should be stopped and eliminated, especially right, 113 00:07:01,079 --> 00:07:01,399 and in. 114 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: This case he did sort of by escalating this. He 115 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,399 called for or Jessica to talk a little about like 116 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:08,720 what the HR side of this, Like what happened then 117 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:10,439 in terms of penalties. 118 00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 119 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:15,439 Speaker 4: So in the tweet thread, so in addition to the 120 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:18,360 video of the student, you know where you hear the 121 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,959 student and the professor talking, he also shared what appears 122 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,680 to be like a recording of either a phone call 123 00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:30,120 or an in person meeting with the university president, President 124 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:36,920 Mark Welsh. And in the video, President Welsh appears to 125 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:41,120 defend the teacher or the professor and what she's teaching 126 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:45,879 and initially tell the student that, you know, it's not happening. 127 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,560 Firing her is not going to be happening. It's important 128 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,759 to note that we don't have the full conversation, We 129 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,279 don't know the full context, but you know, it appears 130 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,800 that he initially was was hesitant to discipline in this case. 131 00:08:02,279 --> 00:08:06,360 But after the so that conversation we believe took place 132 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:11,199 like over the summer, and then this tweet was in September, 133 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:17,319 and you know, within days of this kind of going viral, 134 00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:21,759 he appears to have changed his mind and demoted the 135 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:27,279 dean and the department head and ultimately he terminated the 136 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,519 professor in this In this case, and the cited reason 137 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,440 was that the course did not align with the course 138 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:40,840 content did not align with the course catalog description. He said, 139 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,559 it's it's about academic responsibility rather than academic freedom, Like 140 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,399 we students should, I guess when they're looking at the 141 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:55,159 catalog know what they're signing up for. So yeah, Zach, let's. 142 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,519 Speaker 1: Bring you in on this. I mean, what what do 143 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,320 you sort of make of this whole incident and the 144 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,279 you know, this students argument, the faculty argument, and the 145 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,519 administrator's argument. 146 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, we defend academic freedom here at Fire, the idea 147 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,600 that professors have the right to discuss these controversial issues 148 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:17,159 in class areas, within their expertise and any breathing room 149 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,759 to discuss these issues. And it's really sad to see 150 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:23,799 professors being fired for their in class teaching and pedagogy. 151 00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:26,759 I know there was a dispute with the student and 152 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:30,240 the professor about what exactly the law was the student's 153 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,600 disruption in class, but we do feel that universities should 154 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:38,080 resolve these issues taking a new account the societal importance 155 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,159 we have for academic freedom and the free change of 156 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,200 ideas at a public university bound by the First Amendment. 157 00:09:44,879 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 3: Zach, I want to ask you a little bit about 158 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,159 to kind of dive into this question of First Amendment 159 00:09:49,279 --> 00:09:52,600 freedom of speech and academic freedom and how that kind 160 00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:55,039 of fits in there, right, because we, of course know 161 00:09:55,159 --> 00:10:00,639 the First Amendment protects people's right to say things, including 162 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,960 things that are offensive, and not be punished by the 163 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,120 government for it, except for you know, small example of 164 00:10:08,159 --> 00:10:10,720 the whole like yelling fire in the crowded movie theater 165 00:10:10,799 --> 00:10:14,320 and all that kind of stuff. But then there's the 166 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:18,679 separate kind of conversation around academic freedom, right, and this 167 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:22,519 idea of not wanting the government to interfere too much 168 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,639 with the the you know, what's being taught and what's 169 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,440 being researched. I mean, this is a state school. How 170 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:36,559 does the concept of academic freedom fit into the You know, 171 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,720 this isn't a professor who got fired for going out 172 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,919 on the street and saying something offensive. This is something 173 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,080 that was said. Yeah, we're going to get to that 174 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,240 that this was something that was said in the classroom. 175 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,360 So how, if at all, should we or the courts 176 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,240 look at how that played out. 177 00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, the Supreme Court said that academic freedom is a 178 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,000 spectual concern of the First Amendment, which doesn't tolerate laws 179 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:07,159 that cast a palid orthodoxy on the classroom. And the 180 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,600 general idea is that academic institutions in America should be 181 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:15,480 places where students and professors are the most free to 182 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,879 discuss their ideas, more so than any other institution in 183 00:11:17,919 --> 00:11:20,159 our society, just because of the purpose of the university 184 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,759 and the importance of these institutions to our society. And 185 00:11:23,879 --> 00:11:26,840 so when it comes to these disputes of what professors 186 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:31,639 say in class, you know, the professors teaching and their research, 187 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,399 and there the main discussion of ideas that's really the. 188 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: Core of their job. 189 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,799 Speaker 5: Dute is their job responsibilities, and they're trying to engage 190 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,559 our students to try to get them to discuss these 191 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,679 ideas and really participate in these debates we're having in 192 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,000 our society. And for a university to fire professor for 193 00:11:51,039 --> 00:11:53,519 having this discussion, even if it may be offensive to 194 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,840 students or controversial out there, it's really the opposite of 195 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,799 the goals of the university. 196 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,799 Speaker 2: And that use a free speech and academic freedom. 197 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: How does that break down though, because I think that 198 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,240 there's there is a question here in this case about 199 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:11,480 was she teaching what she should have been teaching in 200 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:14,480 the course? Right? I am also a text saying a. 201 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: Graduate, we we've made it what eight minutes before? 202 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. 203 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: Yes, it's been a very long time since I've been 204 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:24,039 in the classroom, and I know a lot of things 205 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,639 have changed, But I do remember a very specific class 206 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,480 at A and M. It was a philosophy class, I 207 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,879 think maybe even an intro to philosophy class, and it 208 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:39,559 was taught by a lecturer whose research interest was truth commissions, 209 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,440 you know, this whole like you know, South Africa or 210 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,360 other places having these and their effectiveness and everything like that, 211 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:48,840 and she decided that this course was going to be 212 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:53,679 about that as opposed to like more broad philosophy, which 213 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:56,120 it was an interesting course, it was also not the 214 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,559 course I signed up for. And it doesn't seem like 215 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:04,159 completely unreasonable for a you know, AA student to be 216 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,159 upset about something like that and be for a school 217 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,039 to be like, no, you need to like teach what's 218 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,080 actually like on the syllabus and what we're asking you 219 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:19,360 to teach here that seems to be somewhat the case 220 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,360 that Welsh the President is arguing is that she didn't 221 00:13:23,399 --> 00:13:26,399 teach how this course was advertised. How do you sort 222 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,320 of see that factor in this conversation. 223 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,759 Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right, and that if you have a physics 224 00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:36,320 professor and all they do is talk about political issues 225 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,159 the entire time, I think you can make an argument 226 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,240 the professor is not teaching the course as it's supposed 227 00:13:42,279 --> 00:13:44,559 to be taught, actually, depending on what is in the 228 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,440 syllabus and what is the purpose of the course. And 229 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,639 of course backing members need some breathing room to go 230 00:13:49,639 --> 00:13:51,960 off topics some of the time, just to share their 231 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,320 expertise and make the class a little more engaging. 232 00:13:55,399 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: And our argument is. 233 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,879 Speaker 5: That the determination of what is taught and how it 234 00:14:00,039 --> 00:14:03,600 should be taught, that's to be made at the university 235 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:06,679 academic faculty level, right at cheap, a determination by the 236 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,279 factory member that apartment and share the people who are 237 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,919 most well versed and experts in this category. It was 238 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,080 made by administrative politician. You can see that can be 239 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:19,559 very easily abused to target professors who talk about controversial issues. 240 00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:21,039 Speaker 2: So you're right, it's definitely an issue. 241 00:14:21,039 --> 00:14:23,759 Speaker 5: It's definitely a limited academic freedom of not teaching the 242 00:14:23,799 --> 00:14:27,320 class as advertised, not giving students proper notice of what's 243 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,919 being taught. But if that is going to be a 244 00:14:29,919 --> 00:14:32,799 determination the professor is unfit to teach, that should be 245 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,679 at the academic level. 246 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:37,679 Speaker 1: I mean, just to sort of widen this out beyond 247 00:14:37,679 --> 00:14:40,360 this incident, I mean, we have seen I mean, if 248 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,879 you just take chexas A and M, we've seen a 249 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:45,000 lot of these classes. But also, you know, statewide and nationally, 250 00:14:45,279 --> 00:14:49,120 why are college campus is such sort of hotbeds of 251 00:14:49,159 --> 00:14:53,559 these free speech issues? And it has that always been 252 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,200 the case, or are we seeing are we in a 253 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,000 moment of particular clashes? 254 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: I guess I think it's really always been the case. 255 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 5: You can think at stories about the founding fathers, you know, 256 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:06,279 raising hell fare universities, the first free speed zones to 257 00:15:06,279 --> 00:15:09,559 put in place at the combat protests against the Vietnam War. 258 00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:13,159 So I think the university has really always been areas 259 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:17,759 where students and factor members feel free to express themselves 260 00:15:17,799 --> 00:15:22,399 and discuss their ideas, and naturally then involves some opposition 261 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:25,240 from those on campus and off campus too. Is happy 262 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,320 at the universities because they are taxpayer funded, right, They're 263 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,360 part of our communities, part of our society, and so 264 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,440 you're always going to see the precarious situation of universities 265 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:38,600 in our society how they operate. Which is why having 266 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:41,159 academic freedom for both the institution and for the individual 267 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:44,559 professor is so important because in many ways they are kind. 268 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:45,679 Speaker 2: Of majoritarian principles. 269 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 5: Right, we have this freedom to discuss ideas that are 270 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,840 controversial at our offensive we're talking about things that everyone 271 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,480 agrees with. Tops two equals four, the sky is blue. 272 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,919 You don't need academic freedom of free speech. You need 273 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,919 it when you do draw the ire of politicians and 274 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:01,279 government officials who want. 275 00:16:01,159 --> 00:16:03,679 Speaker 2: To censor you. Disic. 276 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:07,519 Speaker 3: I wonder what you make of Welsh's specific argument here. 277 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:09,279 I mean, we talked about it like how it could 278 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,080 present a different case. On the other hand, you know, 279 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,159 the firing happened months after the incident happened, as you mentioned, Jessica, 280 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:19,799 And also you know, I think there are probably a 281 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:23,120 lot of people within the INN faculty and another university 282 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,759 saying like, Okay, is this actually the reason or is 283 00:16:25,799 --> 00:16:28,679 this a convenient excuse to get rid of someone who 284 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,440 is bringing a lot of intense political pressure to the 285 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:36,799 university from people like Brian Harrison, but even more so 286 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,720 from folks like Governor Greg Abbott who has tweeted about 287 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:45,840 this and other leaders. They don't want this kind of 288 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,200 attention right now. 289 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, So your question is what I make of. 290 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 3: His decision and his explanation for the decision. 291 00:16:58,559 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 292 00:16:59,559 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that university presidents, I mean I would 293 00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:08,160 not want President Welsh's job right now, in a very 294 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,839 difficult job. So it's like he has kind of he 295 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,640 has a lot of constituents, right, so he I feel 296 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,119 like he needs to make lawmakers happy to keep his job, 297 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,839 but he also needs the trust of the faculty and 298 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,920 so so I think he that may be why he 299 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:31,759 decided what he decided. 300 00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:37,759 Speaker 3: He also the very conservative Board of regents. 301 00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:38,039 Speaker 1: Shows like who has the power here? 302 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 3: Right? 303 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,839 Speaker 1: Is like too, you know, event should just sort of 304 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,880 say like well this and again, based like you said, 305 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,039 on the limited view we have of this meeting where 306 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:51,160 he originally said like we're not going to fire this 307 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,160 this professor, then we have a social media backlash led 308 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,519 by state lawmakers and the governor and others, and then 309 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,359 the professor is fired. It's like it shows like the 310 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,160 levers of power that that influence. 311 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 4: Until I started reporting on Higher Ed, like I didn't 312 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,119 really understand all those levers, and I think it's important 313 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,200 for people to know that, Like, you know, these boards 314 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,039 of regents are appointed by the governors, so there in 315 00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:23,720 many cases like in lockstep with him. 316 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,279 Speaker 1: And this comes after a legislative session where once again 317 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,400 Higher Ed sort of saw some of it's some of 318 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,440 that freedom curtailed. In Texas, they passed a The law 319 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,759 goes into effect in January, so it's not in effect yet, 320 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:41,039 but there will be a law in effect that gainst regents, 321 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,480 you know, these govern governor appointed regents more control over curriculum. 322 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,279 This comes after they banned any programs related to diversity, 323 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,279 equity inclusion at colleges and universities. I mean, really seeing 324 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:58,319 a tightening of you know, of the control over what 325 00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:58,880 is taught. 326 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,279 Speaker 3: It's been amazing to watch how much the governance and 327 00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:08,200 culture has changed these universities in recent years. I mean 328 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,480 going back to twenty nineteen when lawmakers passed their sort 329 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:14,960 of free speech on campus bill, and that bill was passed, 330 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,160 you know, largely out of concern that conservative voices were 331 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,200 sort of being shouted down and that they needed to 332 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,680 be protected, and that you know, administrators and professors and 333 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,599 other leaders at the universities were too liberal. We had 334 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:31,559 twenty twenty happen after that, you know, the George Floyd protests, 335 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,480 the reactions there, and there's just been so much of 336 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,400 a swing back, whether it's who's leading these universities. You've 337 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,319 seen a lot of different university presidents leave and politicians, 338 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,279 very conservative politicians being put in a lot of those 339 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:53,119 major you know, president or chancellor positions you have, you know, 340 00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:57,440 new you mentioned the DEI rules, some of these rules 341 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,279 about what can and can apt be taught, and just 342 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:04,119 a much swifter reaction to you know, any kind of 343 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,960 incident like this, It does very much seem whether it's 344 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,279 at Texas A and M, whether it's at Texas State 345 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,319 with the professor you mentioned earlier, there was an incident 346 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:19,119 on the Texas Tech campus where a student was expelled 347 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,759 very quickly and removed after you know, saying admittedly some 348 00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:29,319 pretty terrible things about the death of Charlie Kirk on campus, right, 349 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,119 but the swiftness at which these administrators are taking action 350 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,039 really feels like, Jessica, it has created a sort of 351 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:41,440 culture change on these campuses in just like the past 352 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:43,920 like half decade. Would you agree with that? 353 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,759 Speaker 4: Yes, I would agree with that. Yeah, and just a 354 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:53,920 small correction, Eleanor like the law that you're mentioning, Senate 355 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,240 Bill thirty seven, part of it has gone into effect, 356 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,640 and that part the part of the law that has 357 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:05,400 gone into effect basically either did away or significantly weakened. 358 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:13,720 Like faculty representative bodies in higher ed so they're largely 359 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,319 I mean, they've always been an advisory but they were 360 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,519 elected by their other faculty members and advised the administration 361 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:27,440 on academic matters, and now their power is significantly weakened. 362 00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: Zach. 363 00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: Have you felt this sort of pendulum swing and sort 364 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:33,640 of free speech at the center of all of this. 365 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:36,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like a political football, right. 366 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:38,559 Speaker 5: It's like whatever party is in power, whatever they believe 367 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,440 the situation to be, they're gonna most likely abuse the 368 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,680 free speech rights of those around them. It's almost like 369 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,839 the parties don't really have any principles at all. That is, 370 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,039 you know, it's all about the raw power, and so 371 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:56,319 free speech ideally should be this societal wide neutral principle, 372 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,359 general applicability that it protects everybody equally no matter who 373 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,680 you are, what you say. But we're seeing free speech 374 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,039 kind of be warped into a rallying cry for those 375 00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:08,720 outside of power, and then once they get in there, 376 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,720 it's just everyone's a nail and there a hammer, and 377 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,319 they see this happening, you know right now. He turned 378 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,119 out on the Natate of America right saying that in 379 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,480 a prosecute hate speech, like it's happening right before our eyes. 380 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:20,759 That could be a woke talking point five years ago, 381 00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:23,799 and it's happening, you know that September sixteenth, you know, 382 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,880 twenty twenty five. So yeah, we're literally seeing it in 383 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,039 our in our lifetimes, our in our very short political light. 384 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: What should I say? 385 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 5: You know, time spans over here that like, yeah, this 386 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,319 issue is being very warped. And I think it would 387 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,400 be worthwhile for university presidents, especially politicians who support universities, 388 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,160 to have a backbone to be principal, to support free speech, 389 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:48,960 even for those that they disagree with. 390 00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you mentioned already, Charlie Kirk. I 391 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,559 mean I think a historian, you know, over the last 392 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,720 that half decade even longer, like a real character in 393 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:05,559 these debates, you know, Kirk obviously a right wing political 394 00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:09,440 activist who was assassinated last week in Utah while on 395 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,039 a college campus, sort of doing what he became best 396 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:14,279 known for, which was hosting these debates and coming to 397 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:17,519 college campuses really trying to, you know, I think, in 398 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:20,119 some ways, whether intentionally or not, like test the limits 399 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,480 of these free speech protections for views that maybe are 400 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:26,680 not as widely accepted on college campuses. Zach, can you 401 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,920 just talk a little bit bit about you know, Charlie 402 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,440 Kirk and Turning Point USA and sort of the role 403 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,920 they played in this arena of college free speech. 404 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, Charlie Kirk found it to a Point 405 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,480 USA to provide a counterbalance to what he saw as 406 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:41,640 a liberal bias on campus. 407 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:42,799 Speaker 2: It's the conservative student group. 408 00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 5: It's been around for you know a while now. They're 409 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,799 an off censored group. We've defended them when they've gotten 410 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,440 their funding revoked, when the group's got de recognized, their 411 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,880 speakers get disinvited only because they do service as counterbalance. 412 00:23:56,319 --> 00:24:00,759 And yeah, and because of that activist activist, they've definitely 413 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:03,160 gotten a reputation. You know, They've been opposed by many 414 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,359 liberal groups of course, and I think the reaction to 415 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,440 Charlie Kirk's assassination on the left is something we've seen 416 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,480 against Your Point USA for a while. Now that you 417 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,160 know this, he essentially got what was coming, and you know, 418 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,440 this was a good thing. And that's you know, stand 419 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,799 to see because it was a political assassination. It was 420 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,480 a violent response to free speech. And you know, if 421 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,559 you're going to defend a free speech if defended for everybody, 422 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:28,960 even the groups, then individuals that you disagree with. 423 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: I found it so interesting. 424 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,039 Speaker 1: I was looking at Fire's website or your group's website, 425 00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:37,920 the Students under Fire report that found that over the 426 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,599 last five years and Turning Point USA was one of 427 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:44,000 was the most targeted campus group, tied with Students for 428 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,720 Justice in Palestine, which is interesting of just like you know, again, 429 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:50,960 free speech, it's not about like you know which side 430 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,160 you like, it's like both. It has to extend to everyone. 431 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I stayed p the last couple of years, right 432 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,119 with the Gods of Conflict. I feel like that that 433 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,319 group's been around for while, they're very active on campus, 434 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:04,440 they're able to organized. As a result, they get censored 435 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,200 a lot, so so almost you put your neck out 436 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,920 there and they're gonna get bopped un fortunately. 437 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Jessica, how have we seen Texas lawmakers respond 438 00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:17,000 to the assassination of Kirk? 439 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,519 Speaker 3: I mean both. 440 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:19,519 Speaker 1: I think many of them were like personally friends with 441 00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:22,119 him and knew him and sort of supported him politically. 442 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,519 But then also you know, on their their response to 443 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,079 the social media responses, this is kicked off. 444 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 4: I haven't talked to any personally, but just following their 445 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:39,480 social media, you can see that they're upset when people 446 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:48,480 are making light of Charlie Kirk's death or disparaging him 447 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,799 in his legacy in some way, or I don't know, 448 00:25:53,279 --> 00:26:00,000 celebrating his death and calling for uh, for those people 449 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,839 to be for those who are expressing those opinions to 450 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:09,079 face consequences, whether it be firing or yeah, mostly just 451 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,519 losing your job, like we've seen. I don't know that 452 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:16,920 we've seen it in Texas, but I think nationally there 453 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,039 have been professors who've been terminated for opinions that they've 454 00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:24,640 expressed online. And then here in Texas, a colleague of 455 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,680 mine worked on a story about you know, the TEA, 456 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:37,039 the Texas Education Administration Association administration, you know, I guess 457 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:42,039 finding one hundred something teachers maybe did this and pursuing 458 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,279 their teaching license. 459 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I mean Mike Marath, the you know, 460 00:26:47,279 --> 00:26:50,000 commissioner saying that they would not just fire teachers who 461 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:52,440 were found to have made you know, and come and 462 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,359 say deemed inappropriate, but revoke their their teaching licenses. You said, yeah, which. 463 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 4: Is kind of like, I mean, I still need to 464 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,599 read up on that reporting. But that's kind of like 465 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,079 extraordinary if you think about like our shortage of teachers 466 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,559 like an extraordinary kind of act. 467 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:16,279 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, Zach, I mean, I'm not 468 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:22,400 you know, I wouldn't really want my kindergarten teacher celebrating 469 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,359 the murder of someone on a college campus, right, I mean, 470 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,559 walk me through how you think about this, right, I mean, 471 00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:36,240 I think there are reasonable reasonable there's a reasonable urge 472 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,559 to be angry at the people who celebrated the murder 473 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,880 of a human being for you know, exercising his free speech. Right. 474 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,240 How do you view kind of that reaction, you know, 475 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:52,880 when when you see things like what's what's what's happening 476 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,400 in Texas? 477 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, if you're a public university or a 478 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,119 public employee in general, you have the right to comment 479 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 on political using your private capacities and you speaking on 480 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,000 social media talking about Charlie Kirk. As a legal standard, 481 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,000 the government can come back and say your speech is 482 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,640 disruptive to the institution that because your speech renders you unfit, 483 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,359 the teacher fit to do your job, we can punish 484 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,440 you for that. So it's really a balancing task between 485 00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:20,799 the individual's right to express their political views of the 486 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:25,119 First Amendment and then the institutions interests and ensuring smooth operations. 487 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,079 And that's a pretty high bar, right. You really have 488 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,359 to clear, you know, show a lot of disruption, I 489 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,519 really manifest the fitness to do your job to overcome 490 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:37,440 someone fundamental first mode rights. An example is a university 491 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:42,039 professor perhaps continually says, you know, I'm a racist. I 492 00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:45,119 can't teach black students. You know, the students I certainly 493 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,920 feel uncomfortable of gobal into the university and being part 494 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,480 of the class because the professor has these racial views. 495 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,000 But many of the situations it is a teacher or 496 00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:58,519 a public employee just expressing themselves, particularly just express themselves 497 00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:01,759 about Charlie Kirk, in their views about him, and unless 498 00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:04,720 the university or the institution shows that, you know, this 499 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,960 individual can longer be a functioning teacher or a nurser 500 00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:11,400 can't do their job and teachings effectively, then I think 501 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,279 the university, then the university intitutions shouldn't allow the person 502 00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:17,559 to keep their job, because you know, we want to 503 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:20,160 preserve this right to comment on political views, even if 504 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,559 it is offensive to others. 505 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: It's been a disappointing week, you know. I mean, of course, 506 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:32,400 like the assassination of Charlie Kirk is a terrible, terrible 507 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,920 event that and of itself makes for a terrible week. 508 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,359 You would hope in a healthy and functioning democracy in 509 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,480 society that it wouldn't then immediately break down into this 510 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,359 side does this, this side does this, This side is worse, 511 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,079 and we would maybe view ourselves on the side of 512 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,839 maybe people who think we should be able to talk 513 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,319 about things and not be murdered for them, and people 514 00:29:58,359 --> 00:30:01,359 who don't someone that yeah, right, and not try to 515 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,640 cast blame on anyone other than who's pushing for you know, 516 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,319 who's who's condoning or supporting that kind of violence. We 517 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,359 do not seem to be at that place right now 518 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,000 as a society or state or anywhere else. And I 519 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,839 would love to see us. 520 00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: Get to that. 521 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: Place, right, I mean, it's I mean, and we have 522 00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:26,519 the same conversation on some I mean, obviously, the assassination 523 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:29,799 of Charlie Kirk is such a you know, unprecedented thing, 524 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,319 but it is like it does remind me in some 525 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:35,000 ways of the conversations we have after like a school shooting, 526 00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:38,319 where it's like, can we not just like grieve this 527 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,559 and talk about you know, like how does this become 528 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:43,680 politicized so quickly? But on all sides, And it just 529 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,559 feels like we are not at a high point of 530 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,279 being able to discuss you know, horrible human tragedies and 531 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,000 politics in the same conversation without sort of devolving into 532 00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:58,599 our worst our selves at that. 533 00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 5: Point, we're really We're going to say at the cancel 534 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,519 culture part of the tragedy cycle, you hear about this 535 00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:07,400 where like the tragedy happens, people express outrage or grief, 536 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,759 and then people criticize those people expressing average and grief 537 00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:11,839 and they lose their jobs. The winner fires first case 538 00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:14,799 we ever had two thousand and one was a professor 539 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,799 who said that nine to eleven was a good thing, 540 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,359 that we're they're glad this win Towers went down and 541 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,240 that you know, this is a happy thing, and you 542 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,519 can imagine the reaction that got in two thousand and one, right, 543 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,839 and so seeing happening right now, right, you have a tragedy. 544 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:29,519 Try to Kirk assassinated. People comment on it now. There's 545 00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:31,920 a huge wash this out there. I think fifty thousand 546 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,960 people that are being fired from their jobs or being 547 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,240 contacted with their employers for what they say. So it 548 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,240 is definitely a sad day for America and I think 549 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:42,440 this should definitely stop happening. 550 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:46,079 Speaker 3: Do you have any thoughts? I hate to put you 551 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,319 on the spot, but like, do you have any thoughts 552 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,079 on what needs to happen to get us out of 553 00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:50,559 this cycle? 554 00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 5: I think it's kind of just of building a free 555 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,039 speech culture, like recognizing that we're all human beings, will 556 00:31:58,039 --> 00:32:00,960 live in America, we all have free speech almost like 557 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,359 a basic are sending of respect, like you wouldn't want 558 00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:06,880 this done to you in five years, don't do it 559 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,039 to us, you know, Like we shouldn't have canceled the 560 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:12,759 people that were criticizing George Floyd. We shouldn't cancel people 561 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,519 that are criticizing Charlie Kirk. The next person contestinant we 562 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:18,000 shouldn't cancel those people either, So I think that has 563 00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:21,240 to stop somewhere. And it said, it keeps kind of 564 00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:24,240 fueling and getting worse and worse. But I know more 565 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,319 people that recognize the value of free speech. I think 566 00:32:26,359 --> 00:32:30,079 they'll understand why this is harmful to our sido fabric 567 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:32,119 and our nation and they'll stop it. 568 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think in some ways the through line 569 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,839 also is like you know, this professor being fired or 570 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,160 of you know people sort of it's like this like 571 00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,759 intense blowback one hundred and eighty teachers investigated for speaking 572 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,680 you know, ill of Charlie Kirk is like the people 573 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,799 who never will be actually penalized for this right. They're 574 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:55,480 not actually going to take one hundred and eighty teachers 575 00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:57,759 to you know, or open themselves up to that many 576 00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,519 lawsuits or whatever. But it's just sort of the effect 577 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:02,880 on free speech again, whether it's someone something you support 578 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,720 or something you don't of, Like, you know, I just 579 00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:08,759 won't share my opinion for fear that I could be 580 00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:09,680 penalized for it. 581 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it. 582 00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:13,039 Speaker 3: It would also just be nice to get to a 583 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,799 place where, like we are, we're not just talking to 584 00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:19,160 each other, but we're talking to each other in a 585 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,079 way where we're like seeking to understand and be understood 586 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:28,279 as opposed to like scoring points and humiliating or caricaturing 587 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,000 the other side. But we are not at that place 588 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:33,480 right now. But I'm curious, like to your point about 589 00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:35,680 a Chilian effect and everything like that, Jessica, I mean, 590 00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:39,799 what do you think about what do you hear, if anything, 591 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,440 from people on these college campuses. I mean, do you 592 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,079 think that that Chilian effect is happening? How are people, 593 00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:49,720 professors and others reacting to what has happened in the 594 00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:51,279 last few weeks all of. 595 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 4: This, Yeah, I mean it's a mix. Like I've heard 596 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:01,079 from professors saying that they are themselves like courting their 597 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,839 own lectures to kind of have as like evidence if 598 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,400 anything were to be shared on social media so they 599 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,960 could have the full context. I've heard some are self censoring, 600 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:16,599 that they're just not going to talk about certain topics 601 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:18,960 anymore because they don't want to get in trouble. And 602 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,639 then there are others who feel like, I'm going to 603 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,280 keep teaching because that's in the best interest of my students, 604 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,360 and that's who I'm here for. The American Association of 605 00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:35,280 university professors put out a survey I think the week 606 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719 before this stuff with Texas A and m happened that 607 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,239 found like twenty I think it was a twenty five 608 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,079 percent of the respondents in Texas we're looking for jobs 609 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,440 outside of the state just because of the political climate here. 610 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:52,639 So it's not looking good. 611 00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, Well, I imagine this is, like many things 612 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,119 we talked about on here, going to be continuing to 613 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:04,199 develop an unfold and nothing will be resolved. Despite your 614 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,280 you know, your optimism about where we might all end 615 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,119 up as a I. 616 00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 3: Didn't it was opts. 617 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,519 Speaker 1: I just wish yes, right, your fan fiction about the 618 00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:15,239 future of American democracy. Well, I just want to really 619 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,760 thank Jessica and Zach you both for joining us and 620 00:35:18,039 --> 00:35:20,800 taking the time and appreciate it. 621 00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having us. 622 00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: You can get the Trip Cast anywhere you get your podcasts, 623 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,960 as well as on YouTube. Our producers are Rob and 624 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:33,360 Chris and we will see you next week.