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Speaker 1: Temple.

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Speaker 2: So he's saying he's not a Christian, but he's appealing

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to Christian theology. He's appealing to the Old Testament Genesis,

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be fruitful and multiplied. So if he's appealing to that

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and he's saying, well, this is where I get this

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idea of rights from, and people need to be fruitful

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and multiply, why would you discard the rest of it?

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Because if you're saying that that is the reason, and

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that is how you ground your understanding of rights, and

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it comes from that God, then why would you discount

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the other things that that God says? Why would you

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discount the other aspects of orthodox Christian theology? For example,

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let's get into this, shall we.

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Speaker 3: Jo father of Samuel Huntington, who wrote books that influenced

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the Bush administration. So the Bush Cheney those are like

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sort of the arts neocons, but it's actually out of

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the UK from Bernard Lewis, and then they are also

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influenced by Leo Strauss, who was influenced by but they

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also have an influence jeans No joke, did you joke?

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Hung jeans were made actually I think originally for communist purposes.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, it was actually jeans was like American

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it was like mining, and.

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Speaker 3: Well they wanted to have a standard for like in

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a company town, like everybody had the same outfit. So

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I'm not saying that. I mean not saying they make profits.

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I'm just saying, like a company town.

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Speaker 4: You could says it's Levi Strass invented blue jeans, and

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it was in the United States, Denham work pants, but

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it was made.

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Speaker 3: By in San Francisco company town. Are you kidding me?

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Speaker 4: You mean in the US it was that company town.

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Speaker 3: Like a company town is not really a capitalist institution,

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like they make money, but like you have to buy

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everything from the company town.

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Speaker 4: Well, I disagree with that. I mean, if there's a

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barren wasteland and a company's like we need to import

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a bunch of people and there's no industry here, then

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they have to create means by which people can choose

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to buy food.

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Speaker 3: But it's not classical libertarian free market. If everybody has

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to shop at the company town, it might be the.

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Speaker 4: But but again the point is if no town exists

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and they build that, they're sure it's like a right.

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So I wouldn't call it communist. Well, it's called monopolistic.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but I mean, if you're a libertarian, monopolistic capitalism

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isn't classical libertarianism.

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Speaker 4: Also again, so like if if if if I personally

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have a private piece of land and I hire a

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bunch of people and they're like, hey, there's no restaurants anywhere,

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what do we eat? I go, all right, I guess

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I'll have the crew coming open up a restaurant. But

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you got to pay for the food. Is that communism?

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Speaker 3: It's I mean again, monopoly capitalism isn't really.

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Speaker 4: Hold on, this is not this is this is not

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an issue of there's no competition, like it's an issue

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it is. There is no I mean it's an issue

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there's no competition, not forcing people to do anything. Then,

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so is the alternative. I just go, you know what, guys,

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I'm going to open a restaurant where only I get

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to eat. You're not actually not not allowed to eat it.

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I don't want to a communist, right, But this.

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Speaker 3: Is the same argument as to why people would own

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like an entire water supply. Right, So if you privatize water,

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then no one has a right to the world.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not talking about that.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that a company town could own the water.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, what right do you have to take it? It's communist.

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Speaker 3: It's not communist to have wait, what it's not.

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Speaker 4: I own a swath of land and I invite you

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to come work.

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Speaker 2: It's not specifically communists to have public municipalities, like lots

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of different systems have public municipalities.

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Speaker 4: I have to now relinquish my right to the water

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body and my property.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm saying, if you're going to create a society

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or civilization and you have if you own the entirety.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about company towns. We're talking about company.

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Speaker 3: That's the beginning of a civilization. Right, it's no different.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So the point you bring up is that if I

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own let's say, one hundred acres and I I.

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Speaker 6: Have a a grain mill on it, and then I

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can't produce that much.

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Speaker 4: So handful of people are like, how do you good, sir?

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We could increase the output of the grain if you

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give us, if you let us come, And I say,

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all right, you know what I'm going to Actually, I'll

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pay you guys a share of the grain that you mill.

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Thank you for voluntarily coming and offering this service. They

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then say there's nowhere to eat for miles, and I go, well, Unfortunately,

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if I were to create something by which you could

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purchase food, that would be communism.

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Speaker 3: So no, it's not communism.

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Speaker 4: So then if I as the landowner and the private

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piece of land, and I hire a bunch of people

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and they're like, hey, there's no restaurants anywhere, what do

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we eat? I go, all right, I guess I'll have

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the crew coming open up a restaurant. But you got

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to pay for the food. Is that communism?

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Speaker 3: It's I mean again, monopoly. Capitalism isn't really.

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Speaker 4: Hold on this is this is not an issue of

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there's no competition, like it's an issue it is, I mean,

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there's an issue if there's no competition.

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Speaker 2: Chase Haggard says, I like Tim, but Tim was lost

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in this entire exchange. Chase, what are you doing? Do

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you want to come and review this with me? Do

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you want to jump in Rachel's office? Because once we

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get to the epistemology pot it would be because this

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communism pot is all fun and everything, but in five

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or ten minutes it gets to the religious part of things. Chase,

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you want to jump on review this with me? Chase

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would be a freaking good addition to this. Yeah, if

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you can, if you can set up your camera somewhere

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in the office or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Not forcing people to do anything that so is the alternative.

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I just go you know what, guys, I'm going to

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open a restaurant where only I get to eat. You're

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not actually not not allowed to eat it. I don'tant

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to be a communist, right.

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Speaker 3: But this is the same argument as to why people

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would own like an entire water supply. Right. So, if

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you privatize water, then no one has a right to

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the world.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that a

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company town could own the water. Indeed, what right do

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you have to take it? It's communist.

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Speaker 3: It's not communist to have my palities. Wait what it's not.

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Speaker 4: I own a swath of land and I invite you

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to come work on it. I have to now relinquish

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my right to the water body and my property.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm saying, if you're going to create a society

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or civilization, and you have if you own the entiret year.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about company towns. We're talking about company.

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Speaker 3: Town that's the beginning of a civilization, right, it's no different. Right.

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Speaker 4: So the point you bring up is that if I

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own let's say one hundred acres and I I.

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Speaker 6: Have a a grain mill on it, and then I

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can't produce that much.

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Speaker 4: So handful of people are like, how do you good sir?

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We could increase the output of the grain if you

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give us, if you let us come, And I say,

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all right, you know what I'm gonna Actually, I'll pay

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you guys a share of the grain that you mill.

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Thank you for voluntarily coming and offering this service. They

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then say there's nowhere to eat for miles, and I go, well, Unfortunately,

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if I were to create something by which you could

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purchase food, that would be communism.

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Speaker 3: So no, it's not communism.

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Speaker 4: So then if I, if I as the landowner and

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the company owner, then say I will open a restaurant

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the property for you from which you can purchase goods,

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that's the beginning of communism.

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Speaker 3: So, but you're describing a situation of a small microcosm

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where there's no a company town, right, Well, there's no competition.

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Speaker 7: Huh.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't capitalism require competition?

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Speaker 4: And who's stopping people from opening a restaurant across the street.

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Speaker 3: Well, you would if you if you have a cohone.

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Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no no no. If I own property and you.

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Speaker 3: Said in a monopoly capitalism, that would you would be

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then stopping the competition in a monopoly capitalist situation.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no. We're talking about a company town right privately

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on property.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: So do they have to relinquish their water rights?

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Speaker 3: If the city, if it grows to a certain size

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where you begin to have competition.

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Speaker 4: That's literally communism. It's seizing the assets from the private landowners.

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Speaker 8: No.

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Speaker 4: I'm literally going to a guy who owned land and says,

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there's too many people here now, so your water is ours.

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Speaker 1: That's common.

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Speaker 3: If it's if you grow to where you have a

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society that requires competition.

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Speaker 4: And the people can seize your assets. Agreed, we're communists.

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Speaker 3: If there's COMPETI first of all, by the way, Marx

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was a libertarian, so it begets really I want to talk.

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Speaker 4: About I don't care about Marx.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're accusing me of communism, then I'm not accusing you.

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Speaker 4: I'm arguing. If your argument is private landownership is void

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upon excess population, that's literally a function of communism. That's

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what the Venezuelands did.

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Speaker 3: What you're describing is literally just communism itself. A company

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town is essentially the same as a communist side up

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it is, it is not, it is identical.

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Speaker 4: It's completely so. The people own the land in a

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company town. In a company town, the people are the people.

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The people have.

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Speaker 5: It.

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Speaker 4: If we're talking about the structures of communism by which

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there is a private committee, and there's two ways we

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can look at it, your argument seems to fuse to

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gather both the authoritarian dictators ship components and the economic.

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Speaker 3: That's monopoly capitalism. That's where your argument.

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Speaker 4: If the argument is people can voluntarily choose to come

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and work for a company, but there is no competition

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because there's no market reason for it, it's not communism.

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It's just a monopoly. But there's no oppression. And it

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doesn't matter because you can always choose to leave.

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Speaker 3: You can't always choose to leave if you're out in

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the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 4: Why did you go there?

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Speaker 3: In the west?

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Speaker 4: And then again, Brot, I gotta tell you. If the

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argument is I have no choice in my circumstances, therefore

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I should get public rights, it's literally.

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Speaker 3: Not what I said. This guy's a communist so then leave, right,

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Why can't you Well, you can say that, but in

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a company town, especially like in situations when the eighteen

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hundreds company towns are being set up, you didn't have

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the ability to just leave right.

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Speaker 4: Well, they're holding you at gunpoint.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, if you're under a contract, you might

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have to be this.

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Speaker 4: Why did you sign the contract? Well, exactly is it

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communism to voluntarily enter into agreement with the company.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you can call it volunteer.

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Speaker 1: Tim's a big Tim's big on this.

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Speaker 2: When he does the debates, he will do a lot

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of interrupting, He'll get very excited, and he'll do a

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lot of shotgunning, whereas Jay is pretty much the opposite

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right now in this particular moment, just as cool as

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a cucumber.

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Speaker 3: Even their situation where something can be voluntary that you're

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actually locked into, right, I mean, I can.

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Speaker 4: You chose to enter into a contract.

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Speaker 3: Amazon owns an entire area and it's the only place

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to work, then to say well you can move and

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you can share, Yeah, but it's yeah, but it's still

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a form of wage slavery. Right, You don't think there's

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such things as well?

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Speaker 4: No, I die, I think that's commy talk. Well, I

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think this is quite literally the arguments of Chavez and

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the arguments of Bernie Sanders, and my point that often

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bring up to these leftist is what's stopping you from

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just being a vagrant on federal land.

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Speaker 3: There's no differences you want.

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Speaker 4: From my system without input, and that is the the

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component of the left that I disagree with.

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Speaker 3: This is your argument is a leftist argument. Actually, that

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people should have to work with classical liberalism is a

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leftist position. You argue classical liberalism, that's what I'm argus position.

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Speaker 4: What I'm arguing for merit based capitalism is leftist.

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Speaker 3: Yes, classical liberalism out of the Enlightenment, that is incorrect. No,

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out of the Enlightenment origin.

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Speaker 4: The origin of the left is the left aisle in

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the French Revolution, referring to those who wanted a socialist,

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anti monarchist and the right wanted a top down monarchist system. Okay,

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so you're arguing it was a French revolution, it was

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a left and the right.

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Speaker 3: The French Revolution wanted a constitutional monarchy on the right

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and they wanted private property on the right. The leftist

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wanted it.

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Speaker 4: Is indeed, so when we say left and right in

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an economic sense, at refers to left meaning communal right

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meaning that affair.

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Speaker 3: That's classical liberalism, which is against the traditional position of

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church and state. And this is a state.

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Speaker 8: This is the argument that that Karl makes about about liberalism. Now,

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what's the that star of a cod This is I'm

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only saying that they're they're similar, that that liberalism is

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actually a creation of the left, and that the ultimate form.

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Speaker 4: I'm not I am not advocating for in this circumstance

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classical liberalism. I'm advocating for private rights.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But and this is where it goes off the rails.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that part was like kind of boring

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when they're saying you're more communists, you're more communist whatever.

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This is where it gets really interesting. And this is

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where Tim really gets quite the spanking because he starts

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now advocating for roots. Jay asks him to basically ground

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his roots in something where do you get your rights from?

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Timp heeals to God and appeals to universals, and then

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Jay just basically calls him out on just a series

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of like everywhere Tim steps after that is a fallacy.

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He steps onto a fallacy everywhere that he goes after that,

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after he makes those claims. So yes, guys, we might

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have to get this dono bar up though before we

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move on. Honestly, might have to be how it is today,

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because they're humble dono bars today, they're humble dono bars.

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Speaker 1: I think we have to get to at least half

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before I move on here.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, Izzie Man bad, Izzie Man bad,

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Izie Man mean, but we need to get one of

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these dono bars up, whether it be the.

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Speaker 1: Stream elements or the YouTube dono bar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Beaten Cheeks did donate on stream elements, but

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twenty and up comes through though, But he said it's

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extremely unhealthy to speak to someone like this. They them

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they'd have a stroke after speaking alonger than fifteen minutes straight.

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Speaker 1: His poor knees also have twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: Days left of Twitter jail free speech, my ass. Yeah, yeah,

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that was Yeah, that was a sad site that we

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were watching before. If you guys didn't see that one,

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it was a sad site. Indeed, a sad site.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Aussie man on strike, that's true, guys. Comedy tactics, that's right. No,

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pretty capitalist, actually pretty capitalist than anybody who has a

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problem with it, I'll just ban you for Life's that's

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fine because you know, unlike the commies, I actually like

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to get paid for my work.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've.

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Speaker 2: Got different aspects of the audience. I've got some of

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the audience that really likes the long form videos. I've

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got some audience that really like the streams. Blame Pisachik

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with twenty says tim is having they them energy a

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little bit like that, isn't it. Thank you very much, Blaine. Yeah,

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so I've got some audience that likes the short form

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appeal to They appeal to the Instagram. Everything appeals to them.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: I've got some audience that only really like Most of

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my audience on Rattleskink TV only ever watches the I'll

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just let you know, you guys know how it works.

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Most of the audience only ever watches the long form videos.

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And most of my income comes from the long form

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videos and then putting sponsors on the long long form videos.

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So streaming is something that I kind of do as

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more of a fun thing for a pastime. But four

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hours of my time is just a lot. So this

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is why I have the donot goals and why I

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need to actually fill them up and why I'm shameless

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about drifting because I need to get paid for my time, guys. Otherwise,

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I've got a whole team who relies on me. You know,

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a lot of people who rely on me to make

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to make this content and to go out and write scripts.

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And I got advertisers who are freaking wanting me to

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make videos and everything. So there's a lot going on.

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So the streams all good and everything. Enjoy doing them,

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but there needs to be these need to get greased.

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And that's just the way that it goes, guys. So

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if anybody doesn't like that, and if you want to

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call it e begging or whatever, then I'll just ban

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you for life and you can go yourself as far

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as I'm concerned. So, yeah, you if you don't like it,

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basically anyways, Yeah, that's just the way it goes, guys.

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Not a massade agent for twenty says this money is

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not from any intelligence agency. Not a massad agent. What

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have I told you about publicly donating money to me?

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Speaker 1: Masad? What have I told you about publicly.

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Speaker 2: Donating Hey, come on now, Beaten Cheeks for twenty says

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I'm here for the commie hatred commies for the win

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beaten cheeks. At least you're funny, you know what I mean.

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I try to find a way to make fun of

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beaten cheeks today. How can we give shit to beaten cheeks.

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He's one of those ones that it's fun to. It's

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fun to chat. Spar with Tiffany for ten says I'm

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making smoked chicken with fried rice for the Fam. Always great,

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takes Jake. Well, thank you, Tiffany, and I hope the

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fam enjoys it. Nothing better than a homegooked meal from

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a woman with love. Shameless gift for a shameless grift,

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says Josh. Thank you, sir, much appreciated, my friend, much

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much appreciated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sloppy job by Massade. That is so true.

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Speaker 2: And Billy Schmidtz for ten. Over on the stream Elements side,

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thanks for your time, Jake. Did I miss Rachel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think you can re fast.

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Speaker 2: Rewind it though, you can rewind it and you can

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catch her over there. Twenty more on the super chat side, guys,

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and then we'll get back into it. Twenty more on

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the superchat side. Then we'll get back into it. Or

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twenty more on the stream elements side, and then we'll

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get back into what we're.

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Speaker 1: All here to see.

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Speaker 2: The debate missed the boat on those seven seven K shekels,

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how do you guys know I'm not getting this seven kit?

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What an insult that you guys automatically assume that I'm

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not getting my seven K?

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Speaker 1: I think that that's that's sort.

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Speaker 2: Of like you're saying to me, radlsnag, I think that

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you're not a shrewd businessman. What an absolute insult? Blaine

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Pisasik says, says, Beaten Cheeks is an Indian woman. That

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was a good one. Now that was a good one

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00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,440
by Blain Pisa That is true. Actually, Beaten Cheeks is

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a good woman. And Shelby says, for your time and trouble,

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thanks for the livestream reviews. They've been peak content. We

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thank you, Shelby, Thank you appreciate that. All right, let's

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get back into it, shall we. Now that the palms

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are sufficiently great.

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Speaker 7: That.

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Speaker 8: His perspective is similar to Carl's perspective.

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Speaker 4: Sure, but that's immaterial to the argument being made.

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Speaker 3: It's not because what you're you're saying that you're a

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socialist here a Marxist. But what I'm arguing would be

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the same as any medieval village philosophy, and they weren't

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Marxist or social back in the Middle Ages. Like if

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you end up French village in that.

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Speaker 4: Here, you're okay Again. If the core of your argument

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is there's a private landowner, twenty years later, there's now

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three hundred people working in this land. We now transfer

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the private rights from the landowner to a communal function.

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Speaker 2: Joel By with twenty over on stream Altains says, fea

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steadfast and unwavering support and propagand propagation of our shared.

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Speaker 1: Day Christian values.

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Speaker 2: Ah gel, don't make me crash, Yeah, don't make me

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chimp out. Now, beaten cheeks, don't quit, bro, don't quit,

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00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,599
beaten cheeks. What would your family think? You're an Indian woman,

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00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:38,960
so what would like, how are you going to get

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a nice big dowry payment for your hand in marriage

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if you just quit?

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Speaker 1: Who's going to pay their? Who's going to give their

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for that? Or a quitter?

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Speaker 3: Again, it's complex where you have something like the total

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ownership of something like a water supply, right, so when

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you have people that need that that's different than a

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situation where Nastali's trying to buy an entire countries like

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private supply.

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Speaker 4: So again the issue is company towns. I have one

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hundred acres, I own the body of water on that land.

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I invite a bunch of people to work. They say

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i'll work here. I need a place to say. I

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say I'll bage a house. They say where do I

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get food? I'll build a store, and they say we

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need water. I say, I'll set up a water pump

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for you. That's communism.

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Speaker 3: Well let's let's go to the rights then, because you're

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arguing that this you have this right as a as

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a company owner, and I would agree, But on what

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basis do you have those rights? Because classical liberalism lost

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this whole argument, but it can.

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Speaker 4: I don't know why you're bring up classical liberalism.

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Speaker 3: It's not your position.

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Speaker 4: No, it isn't your it is you're not aware of that,

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but it is your positions. Now you're throwing a blanket

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to encompass one point and combine with a bunch of

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other points.

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Speaker 3: Because your arguments come out of that ethos, whether you

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know it or not, they're classical liberal and.

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Speaker 4: You can have varying ideologies mix and match. Let's make

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an argument on what I actually just basis for the rights,

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the basis for the right to own private property, well ethos,

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So I argue that the rights of man are derived

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from the will or the duties God bestows upon man.

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Speaker 2: Big mistake this is you do not want to make

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this argument to Jay Dyer if your name is Timple,

436
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If your name is Timple, and if you are like

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a libertarian, maybe Senna right, guy, like Senna, Senna right,

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sort of guy. I guess you don't want to make

439
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,400
this argument. Well, well, I argue that rights are bestowed

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upon man by God. You're then well, then you're appealing

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to universals. Then you're saying that it's universally true and

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that God and you have like you would have to

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have like a grounding epistemology for that claim.

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Speaker 1: Right, What is God? How do you know that?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: How is that logically coherent?

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00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,319
Speaker 2: Jay has that, Tim doesn't have that, And we're going

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to see that play out.

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Speaker 4: The requirements that we have from God, which is be

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fruitful and multiply requires a hand.

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Speaker 2: That's a Christian doctrine, The idea of being fruitful and

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multiplying Christian doctrine comes from obviously the Book of Genesis,

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or yeah, it comes from the Old Testament.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, and full of things for which we recognize in

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the United States that we allow the people to do

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fully recognizing that other groups have different ideas of what

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rights are. So I would argue rights are we need

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to be able to communicate, we need to able to

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protect ourselves, and we be a we need to be

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secure in our possessions. These are principal rights that we

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struggle to survive without. As the basis of this is

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look at communism in general and the Soviet Union, and

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00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,119
when you don't have property rights, congratulations, Look what happens

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when you have mass monopolization and oligopoly you get something similar.

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So in a simple sense, certainly it is my moral

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worldview and faith based structures that define what I think

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someone has an inherent claim to Progressives think of an

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inherent claim to someone else's labor, which would just I

469
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,960
would describe as slavery. So when it comes to the

470
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,839
idea of private land ownership, the argument is fully understanding

471
00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:48,799
population expansion can come to a point where some people

472
00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:51,920
will never own land, but the idea is I need

473
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,599
to be secure in my possessions, to know and prepare

474
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,400
for harsh winters, for instability, so that I can survive,

475
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,640
so that I can be fruitful, and that I can multiply.

476
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,039
Speaker 3: So you appealed to Genesis and God? What God? What

477
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:07,359
principles of Genesis tell you that?

478
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,079
Speaker 4: What are you talking about? I'm not a Christian?

479
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 3: Then how are you going to base this argument for

480
00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:15,880
rights in God? What do you mean? What God?

481
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 4: My God? My moral worldview?

482
00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 1: So my God?

483
00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is a new age worldview, is what

484
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,680
Tim has got. And this is as incoherent as any

485
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,519
new age worldview, by the way, So his worldview is essentially, well,

486
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,440
my God. I don't believe in the Christian God. I

487
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,720
don't believe in any particular God. I think that everyone

488
00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:38,720
gets it wrong. So Tim Poole's interpretation of God is

489
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:39,519
what he's going to.

490
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,279
Speaker 1: Appeal to here. That is.

491
00:21:43,279 --> 00:21:45,799
Speaker 2: Beaten Cheeks for twenty said, you guys wish I was Indian.

492
00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:48,480
This is absurd. I blame the nineteenth for letting a blame.

493
00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:51,880
Have they their energy? That's so true, Thanks Bed and Cheeks.

494
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:55,839
Appreciate that, bro. But anyways, Temple is appealing to my God.

495
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,000
Here my God his interpretation of God. So he's saying

496
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,799
he's not a Christian, but he's a appealing to Christian theology.

497
00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:06,920
He's appealing to the Old Testament Genesis, be fruitful and multiply.

498
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,319
So if he's appealing to that and he's saying, well,

499
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,240
you know, this is where I get this idea of

500
00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:13,559
rights from, and people need to be fruitful and multiply,

501
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:16,599
why would you discard the rest of it? Because if

502
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,000
you're saying that that is the reason, and that is

503
00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:21,880
how you ground your understanding of rights, and it comes

504
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,200
from that God, then why would you discount the other

505
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,480
things that that God says? Why would you discount the

506
00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,160
other aspects of orthodox Christian theology for example? Then it

507
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,599
becomes basically a get out of jail free card because

508
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,000
people like Tim for example, who are on the libertarian

509
00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:39,920
side of things, or liberals for example, they know that

510
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,519
when they are asked about any sort of presuppositions that

511
00:22:43,559 --> 00:22:46,559
they have, their worldview tends to crumple. So he's trying

512
00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:48,440
to use this, well, I ground it in God. Well

513
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,599
you can't really ground it in God, unfortunately, because that

514
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,240
makes it logically incoherent. You become a relativist.

515
00:22:53,279 --> 00:22:55,799
Speaker 3: Anyways, it's not a universal principle, it's just subjective.

516
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 4: Well, I think to a lot of people they have

517
00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:00,359
a moral worldview and a philosophical understand think of some

518
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,279
things and not others. And I base mine largely on first.

519
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,559
I would argue that perhaps there are greater moral philosophies

520
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,039
than the Christian moral structures. We just don't know them yet.

521
00:23:10,079 --> 00:23:12,599
Speaker 2: I would say, an appeal to we don't know them yet.

522
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,359
That's another bad one, Like this is what scientists are

523
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,759
always doing. This is what the atheist sector us are doing. Yeah, well,

524
00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:21,640
you know, there's a way better explanation out there than

525
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,640
God created mankind, but we just don't know it yet,

526
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,480
and we'll figure it out. We're sciencing so hard that

527
00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:28,559
we're going to figure it out one day. And there's

528
00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,000
an explanation for consciousness, we just don't know it yet.

529
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:34,640
Trust me, Bro, there's a scientific atheist explanation for consciousness,

530
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,359
but we just don't know it yet. But where sciencing

531
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,319
hard is right now. Me and the boys are sciencing

532
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,559
so hard right now that we're going to find.

533
00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 4: It historically, based upon what we have seen throughout the

534
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,160
world and what we think we know the Christian moral

535
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,559
worldview has been dramatically superior.

536
00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: To the absolute nerve and absolute unabashed hutzpa from Chase

537
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,279
Hayard to not reply to my WhatsApp messages, to not

538
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,640
reply to my invitation to come on stream and to

539
00:23:58,279 --> 00:24:00,200
review this with me right now and to be in

540
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,319
the comments, just like a freaking Migtao man going his

541
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,519
own way from retelsnake TV man, going his own way

542
00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:10,599
from my WhatsApp messages and from my invitations on the stream.

543
00:24:10,759 --> 00:24:15,839
It's all utilitarian attempts to justification from Tim. Yeah anyways,

544
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,799
Chase anyways, Chase just doesn't want to come on stream

545
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:21,400
with me, doesn't want to review this with me, and

546
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,680
thinks he can just still comment, seeks he can just

547
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,839
still come in here and comment.

548
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 4: He's just migtown to other moral structures. So that being said,

549
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,160
I'm not a Christian and I don't believe in the

550
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,359
faith structures they have. However, I have recognized that the

551
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,519
moral structures of a Christian society tend to make life

552
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:44,519
more successful for individuals, which is ultimately beneficial to the

553
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:48,559
standard function of life, which is organizing complex organizing free

554
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,599
energy into complex systems, So just utilitarianism.

555
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: So because it works.

556
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: Well, that literally exactly what he said was just utilitarianism.

557
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,799
He's saying, this is what I believe because it works,

558
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,039
and then he's just denying the But that is what

559
00:25:01,079 --> 00:25:03,079
he's saying there, let's listen to it again.

560
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 3: It's just subjective.

561
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 4: Well, I think to a lot of people they have

562
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,000
a moral worldview and a philosophical understanding of some things

563
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,119
and not others. And I base mine largely on first

564
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,400
I would argue that perhaps there are greater moral philosophies

565
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,960
than the Christian moral structures. We just don't know them yet.

566
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,480
I would say, historically, based upon what we have seen

567
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:27,640
throughout the world and what we think we know, the

568
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:32,880
Christian moral worldview has been dramatically superior to other moral structures.

569
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,119
So that being said, I'm not a Christian and I

570
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,799
don't believe in the faith structures they have. However, I

571
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,480
have recognized that the moral structures of a Christian society

572
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:46,200
tend to make life more successful for individuals.

573
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: So that is literally a utilitarian worldview. He's saying that

574
00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:53,839
he doesn't believe that Christianity is true. He's saying that

575
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,960
he doesn't think that like the actual faith itself of

576
00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:03,000
Christianity is literally true. But and he's saying that, you know,

577
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:04,839
I think we're going to find one that's way better,

578
00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:07,640
you know, if we keep going, because me and the

579
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,680
boys were philosophying hardest right now, Like me and the

580
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,920
boys are philosophying out right now.

581
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,039
Speaker 1: Right we're just.

582
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: Philosophying all day and all night until the cows come home,

583
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,559
and we're going to find one that's way better. We

584
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,200
just haven't found it yet. So but I don't think

585
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,640
that that's true. But you know, it's got some decent philosophy.

586
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,440
So if we use that, then I guess like it's

587
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,160
the best thing that we've come up with so far.

588
00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:36,279
That's utilitarian. He's using it because the utility of it

589
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,839
is such that it's the best that they found. Yeah,

590
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,319
it doesn't get much more utilitarian than that, really.

591
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 4: Which is ultimately beneficial.

592
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: It's actually the argument as well that and this is

593
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,559
why I like to argue the debate of what's better

594
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:53,440
for society Christianity versus secular humanism. It's a fun debate

595
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,599
to have with these secular humanists because essentially I can

596
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,119
come at it from the utilitarian point of view, I.

597
00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:01,799
Speaker 1: Can just grant God, that's what makes it fun.

598
00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:03,839
Speaker 2: I can grant God not real dough, and I can

599
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,119
just say, okay, cool, let's see what's better for society

600
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,079
from a purely utilitarian point of view to.

601
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,079
Speaker 4: The standard function of life, which is organizing complex organizing

602
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,599
free energy into complex systems.

603
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 3: So just utilitarianism. So because it works, well, that was

604
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,720
utilitarian You're wrong, that's utilitarianism.

605
00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:24,519
Speaker 4: No works well, Hey, if you don't have an argument

606
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:26,680
for what I said, stop trying to blanket it with

607
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:27,839
something else. As a straw man.

608
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: The argument.

609
00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:32,839
Speaker 2: It couldn't be further from a straw man. Because Jay

610
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,000
just encompassed what he said. It's like, okay, well, yeah,

611
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,960
that's what you said was the Christianity works really well,

612
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,279
and the moral system tends to work really well.

613
00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: That's why I use it. That is, you were.

614
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: Using Christianity as a utility. The utility is Christianity. The

615
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,839
utility works utilitarianism. Jay points that out, and all of

616
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,279
a sudden, he's straw manning.

617
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,319
Speaker 3: It was utilitarianism. I'm it's literally not I did. We

618
00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:57,000
can talk about it, is it not utilitarian?

619
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,279
Speaker 4: Well, we can talk about dentteological ethos. We can talk

620
00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:03,240
about new this. No, indeed, my point is enlightenment. Instead

621
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,279
of arguing what I said, you're going you're arguing thing.

622
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, now Tim's doing the Well, we could

623
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,640
talk about geontological ethics. Well, I mean you could if

624
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,400
you wanted to that, if you wanted to have a

625
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,480
different conversation, you could certainly talk about deontological ethics.

626
00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:21,279
Speaker 1: And we get it. Okay, you understand the different branches

627
00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:22,160
of ethics. That's good.

628
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: You know geontological and utilitarian, virtue ethics, these sorts of things.

629
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: That's good. But you haven't.

630
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,279
Speaker 2: You don't realize that you've You just laid out a

631
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200
utilitarian framework and now now he's getting mad about it.

632
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 4: I gave you a specific outline.

633
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: I'm give you the problem with utilitarianism. I'm sorry that

634
00:28:36,039 --> 00:28:37,880
you're not aware with the of the problems with that, but.

635
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 4: I'm sorry that you can't actually address what I told you.

636
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,519
Speaker 3: I'm addressing it now, which is not utilitarian arguments are

637
00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:45,079
pragmatic and it's not a justify.

638
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:48,039
Speaker 4: Great, I'm not a utilitarian, but you made a utilitarian

639
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,680
argument a component of some perhaps so I don't believe

640
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,920
in utilitarianism. Because that would sacrifice individuals.

641
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: All right, Chase coming on stream, guys, that'll be good,

642
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,960
this will be this will be excellent.

643
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: Chase one of the best filbros that I know.

644
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: So we'll get a really, really solid perspective here. I've

645
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,920
sent you the link. Chase says, link expired. No, surely not,

646
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:15,200
surely not. Let me have a look again. Keep playing

647
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,319
this again.

648
00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 4: Do you know what denttological moral ethosis? Okay? Great? So

649
00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:23,079
when you say something like and then I bring up,

650
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:25,799
we do not we do not take immoral actions against

651
00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,119
an individual for the betterment of the of it. I

652
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,680
know you are making an arguments the needs of the

653
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,720
many outweigh the needs of the few, which I did

654
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:37,160
not say.

655
00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: You can have different types of utilitarianism.

656
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 4: Sure, instead of arguing the point that I made, you

657
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,079
argue a pragmatic point. Argue the point I made. Stop

658
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,799
trying to blanket into other.

659
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: Does pragmatism justify the rights? That's what you argued, Okay.

660
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: I made an argument about private land ownership as a

661
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:57,720
benefit to human survival.

662
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: Pragmatic.

663
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,319
Speaker 4: Okay, So address what I said. How does appeal you

664
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:04,839
make yours? Addressing what I said?

665
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not a justification. It's a bad argument.

666
00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: All right, give you one set, guys. I'm just teching

667
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:16,839
right now. I'm just teching right now, lounge guest screen

668
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,240
share Guys. If I get this right first time, then

669
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:22,000
I'm a freaking genius bomb Chase.

670
00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:24,759
Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Do we lose? Chase? We lost? Chase?

671
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:25,079
Speaker 2: Well?

672
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:27,599
Speaker 1: I think he's got a call back. Here we go, Chase.

673
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,279
Can you hear me?

674
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 3: I can?

675
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:29,359
Speaker 7: Yes?

676
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,519
Speaker 1: Is there any echo?

677
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 7: No?

678
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 3: There's not.

679
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 7: Can we can we turn my camera off? That I

680
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,880
look crazy? I've been working all day on mixes and

681
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:37,039
I want to show my face.

682
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:38,839
Speaker 2: Can you just like put it down? Because we had

683
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,960
the same problem yesterday. I couldn't do it. Can you

684
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:42,079
just like put it?

685
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:43,119
Speaker 3: Yeah?

686
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: That would be good.

687
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: Yes?

688
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:47,359
Speaker 1: Can you can you hear me?

689
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,599
Speaker 7: Right? I don't have to subject people to the face?

690
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: Yes?

691
00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 7: I can?

692
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,599
Speaker 1: All right? Tell me? First of all, what have you seen?

693
00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:57,359
Speaker 2: Initially from the debate, Tim comes in and he basically

694
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,400
says okay, so he basically grounds rights in God.

695
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: And then he.

696
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: Refers to Genesis be fruitful and multiply, so he's referring

697
00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:10,680
to like the Old Testament scripture. And then he's saying, well,

698
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,400
I don't think that that's true necessarily, but it tends

699
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,079
to work pretty well, and there's a better moral system

700
00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:19,000
out there, but we haven't realized it yet. But we're

701
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,319
philosophying hard as so we're going to realize it. And

702
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:24,799
then Jay says he's a utilitarian. Tim says, no, I'm

703
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,640
not a utilitarian. Stopped trying to straw man me. It

704
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,559
doesn't seem like a straw man to me. What are

705
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:30,240
you getting from it?

706
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:31,279
Speaker 7: No?

707
00:31:31,319 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 9: Not?

708
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,079
Speaker 7: I agree. I don't think it's a straw man at all.

709
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 9: And the core question Jay's asking is is very simple,

710
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:41,680
is just Okay, how are you justifying this outside of

711
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,240
you know it works?

712
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:45,079
Speaker 7: Because I could say.

713
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:49,519
Speaker 9: Me being like a Morton Joe from Mad Max and

714
00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:52,839
just having this horrible breeding farm, it'll work, it's effective.

715
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,599
So how is that gonna not fall under the same

716
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,559
justification as you? So I agree, And I don't think

717
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,039
I liked him. I've always enjoyed Tim. I think he's

718
00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:04,960
a great bell weather for kind of like the middle

719
00:32:05,119 --> 00:32:08,240
of the road Americans. I'm not talking about intelligence, just politically,

720
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:10,599
but he was very out of his depth here and

721
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,039
I was watching it and was just kind of shocked

722
00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:13,400
that dude.

723
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,559
Speaker 7: Just let it go. It's not a big deal.

724
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 9: Yeah about company towns and it got it got all

725
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,559
the way down here.

726
00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:21,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, let's keep you go on with it.

727
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: Because appealing to things that work or pragmatism isn't a justification.

728
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: Eplain why I'm wrong about the requirement of private land

729
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:30,640
ownership for survival.

730
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,079
Speaker 3: You grounded the right in utilitarianism and pragmatism. I'm saying

731
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:36,680
that's not a good justification. It's a bad argument. So

732
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,559
expect anything that works could be all over the place,

733
00:32:40,599 --> 00:32:41,519
that could be subjective.

734
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:45,119
Speaker 4: Indeed, that was my point in which I said, there

735
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,839
project relatives that work better we have not discovered.

736
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: Yet, then it's justification. So you don't know. So if

737
00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:54,160
it's a future thing that you haven't figured out yet,

738
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,359
then you don't know right now that it would be a.

739
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: Justificating I understand certain principles of gravity and the speed

740
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,759
at which thing fall, but we don't know for sure

741
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,799
how the structures work, and it wouldn't we operate based

742
00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:07,319
on probabilities.

743
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: But it would then that would not work to justify

744
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,319
the rights as grounded.

745
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,839
Speaker 4: In an unknown Then go jump off a building and

746
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,839
see it works for you.

747
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: You told me I have.

748
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,759
Speaker 1: So gravity and rots the same thing.

749
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly. And again notice so the conversation. I don't

750
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,200
think Tim intentionally did this, but it shifted from justification, right,

751
00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:30,599
good reasons to believe something, which can be tough defining

752
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,319
in and of itself, but good reasons to believe in something.

753
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,319
It shifts from that again back to just pragmatism. Well

754
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:41,279
it works while societies thrive. Well again, you know, and

755
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,720
Morton Joe's society was thriving and he had plenty of women.

756
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:50,119
Everyone out in the desert was totally surviving. Lord Farquad

757
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,359
had a great kingdom. What's what's to say it's wrong

758
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,839
with it? But it shifts from truth to just what's

759
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,839
going to lead to better societies? And Jay keeps trying

760
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,119
to bring it back to well, that's not a grounding,

761
00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:03,920
and then it just goes in circles constantly.

762
00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah it is.

763
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: I do find it interesting and funny though the potway

764
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:10,320
Jay starts to call him that and all the fallacies because.

765
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: Wants Tim, do you agree that? Like once Tim.

766
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,679
Speaker 2: Sort of starts to talk about universals, and once he

767
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:18,079
starts to say that he grounds things in God. Basically,

768
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,079
he's just walked into a room of just mouse traps

769
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:24,800
everywhere and everywhere he steps is a mouse trap fallacy, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy.

770
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 9: After that, absolutely, absolutely, and even Jay was really patient

771
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,440
throughout all of this because he didn't even push the

772
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:37,440
question of well, what even is the standard of society working?

773
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,400
Because we can have functioning, horrifying societies. You know, you

774
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,880
can be like lords Lord Sauromo with all the orcs.

775
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,800
You can have a functioning society that way. He didn't

776
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,320
even do that. And Tim is just completely out of

777
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,880
his depth here, and yeah, just kept asserting, asserting it

778
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,480
works better, it works better.

779
00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,079
Speaker 7: Coach Abafa building, see how that works.

780
00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 9: Well that if I die, that doesn't mean that my

781
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,280
system is less true.

782
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 7: That's not the question.

783
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's carry on.

784
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 4: Jump off a building and see how it works. Because

785
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,880
you don't know gravity. It's a future thing you haven't

786
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,760
figured out yet. We operate on probabilities based on what

787
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,639
we think we know because we actually don't know.

788
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: But that doesn't ground a right. That's the point. Indeed,

789
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:22,519
your probabilities, I asked you for the grounding for the

790
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:23,800
right to private property.

791
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 4: So far, human history has proven private land ownership is

792
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,320
beneficial to human existence.

793
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 3: That's a circular argument benefit. I'm asking how you know

794
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:33,840
that it benefits of what does it mean to benefit?

795
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,400
And you're saying, because it was good, it makes more

796
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,840
of it. That's a circular argument.

797
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,559
Speaker 2: One of the chat has just made a good point

798
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:42,159
and said an aggressive metastasized cancer is a moral good

799
00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:46,000
because it's thriving. Then in this case, yeah, it's growing.

800
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: Yes, well why maybe making more of it's bad. It's

801
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,280
certainly not okay, but why not that's the point. That's

802
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:52,920
why it's a circle.

803
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 4: Well, let's go back to the origin of what we

804
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,039
think we know again, because everything we think, everything is

805
00:35:59,079 --> 00:36:00,000
written in what we think we.

806
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:05,559
Speaker 9: Know, right, it's just scientism. This whole, this whole next

807
00:36:05,559 --> 00:36:08,039
like ten minutes is just dude.

808
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:09,639
Speaker 1: He did the same thing to Andrew. Have you ever

809
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:10,400
seen that debate?

810
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,079
Speaker 2: I think, uh, they're gonna release it sekend Yeah no,

811
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:16,639
but this I think it was a different debate. It

812
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,840
was on God and it was on Temple's like paywall show,

813
00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:23,400
and then rache tended to us Okay, yeah, and it

814
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,840
was actually and Tim did this exact same thing where

815
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,079
he did this whole five minute story, and then it

816
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:31,199
went into like squirrels and ship and about you know,

817
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,840
entropy and and all this sort of stuff. But it

818
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,639
actually doesn't make an argument. It's just basically a bunch

819
00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:37,800
of look at the stuff I know.

820
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,639
Speaker 9: But anyways, exactly when everyone father and an Ias who

821
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,079
runs the Patristic Faith Channel, father, deacon, doctor, and an

822
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:51,199
Ias always says, well, look, you know, that's an interesting story.

823
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,039
And in philosophy, what we are all telling each other

824
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,079
is stories. Now some of those stories can be true,

825
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,679
some of those stories can be false, but that's why

826
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,119
we asked the questions, how do you know that? And

827
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:08,280
does your system make knowing that possible? It's it's not

828
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,719
those questions are deep, but they're not. They're pretty basic.

829
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 8: Right.

830
00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 7: It's like it's like.

831
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,079
Speaker 9: You coming to me and saying, Chase, I know that

832
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,480
I'm worse at FIFA than you, And I say, well,

833
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,599
how do you know that? And you go, well, because

834
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:23,679
we played constantly and I just kept losing it. I said, Okay,

835
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,559
that's a good justification, right, that's a good reason to

836
00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:29,639
believe the story. But Tim just says, this whole long

837
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,599
story and all it's going to come down to is well.

838
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,079
Speaker 7: You grant me one premise.

839
00:37:35,159 --> 00:37:37,599
Speaker 9: That the Big Bang happened, and then I can build

840
00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:38,960
the rest of the system. We'll just say, well, no,

841
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:39,880
we're not going to grant that.

842
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 7: Do I grant that?

843
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna let the faith it comment go because

844
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,800
I think that, like the results speak to it make themselves,

845
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,320
and I'm not insecure like that, Like I'm pretty secure

846
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,000
in my faithor favoring abilities.

847
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,039
Speaker 9: But for sure, you don't even need to bring it up.

848
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:53,320
It doesn't even need to be said.

849
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: And trivia as well. So yeah, maybe I should take

850
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,280
you on soon, because I want to take Rachel on soon.

851
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,920
Maybe you should come on and lose. Okay, good, good, tonight, good, right,

852
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,519
let's hear the story.

853
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 4: Probably wrong, But honestly, I've not done the experiment experiments

854
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,480
myself to a great degree. I've just been into plane.

855
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,800
So if we go back to again the roots of science,

856
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,880
we can take a look at a few things. Free

857
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,960
energy tends to coalesce into complex systems, starting with the

858
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,400
baser elements, or we can say quarks, I'm sorry, quarks

859
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,320
into particles, into atoms, into elements into compounds. At some point,

860
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,639
for some reason, you get gravity, likely because if you're

861
00:38:33,639 --> 00:38:37,639
familiar with our current understanding of gravity, mass creates attraction,

862
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,519
et cetera. And this results in certain masses coming together.

863
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,639
Eventually you'll get something like a gas giant. You'll get

864
00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:46,000
something that compresses then ignites fusion, and you get a sun.

865
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:47,760
We get all this stuff, then you get an Earth.

866
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,599
Earth is the result of certain things slamming together, creating

867
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:54,039
a bunch of complex elements through processes of fusion, et cetera.

868
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: And then it's like Tim like watched and memorized the

869
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,440
cliff notes of the history of the universe in two hours.

870
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know those documentaries.

871
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,159
Speaker 9: Well, to me, basically, basically what I hear was we

872
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,960
used to live in peace until the fire Nation attacked

873
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,159
and then the Avatar went missing.

874
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 4: Exactly at some point on Earth for some reason. Again,

875
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,480
we don't really know for sure. These molecules and compounds

876
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:26,320
are forming self replicating proteins. The Again, in modern science,

877
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,840
the one thing we recognize is that there is greater

878
00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:32,119
entropy and limited entropy. Negative entropy can only exist in

879
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:35,840
a slightly greater entropic system. But we do see free

880
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,000
energy organizing in the complex systems throughout the Earth and

881
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:42,039
in the universe. That's what we monitor. Eventually, these complex

882
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:46,079
systems ultimately become multi They become cellular organisms, single cells,

883
00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:51,320
then multicellular organisms, by which they then create complex organism systems.

884
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:54,039
They create ecosystems. Now you've got a squirrel planting a nut,

885
00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:56,039
growing a tree. The tree then drops the food for

886
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:58,239
the squirrel. And now I've got two distinct life forms

887
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,440
that form a complex system within its own free energy.

888
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,920
And then we get to the craziest part with humanity

889
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,320
in the creation of abstract complex systems. That is, humans

890
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,199
give names to things that don't exist anywhere in reality

891
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,920
except and the energy transference between the mind and the

892
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,360
vibrations between their mouths. So what we then see is

893
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,719
the function of life is negative entropy within a larger

894
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,360
entropic system. If we as life, which are driven to

895
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,239
reproduce and are and we typically associate all of those

896
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,280
things with being good and enjoyable, like having kids having

897
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,079
Christmas morning, then we track based on what we have

898
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:36,719
seen throughout the earth. What is the most beneficial to that.

899
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:39,760
There are few answers for this. Islam could be one

900
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,599
of them. They've certainly been massively successful, have lots of kids.

901
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,559
We can take a look at Africa and say, certainly

902
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,400
that is beneficial. However, I would make the art notice

903
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,280
how he couldn't say how Africa's beneficial.

904
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:53,559
Speaker 7: Yeah, well it's just lots of kids. Again, notices.

905
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 9: It's this whole story that fingerings exactly in all types

906
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,519
of metaphysics. Well, there's multiple different things that have their

907
00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:05,440
own identity over time that persist and then they interact

908
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,840
in a cohesive system and they obey these things called

909
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:13,320
laws that suddenly can exist without someone intending them. And

910
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,360
then jumps to Islam could be true because they have

911
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,800
a lot of kids. Yeah, it's a total non sequitur.

912
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,000
And again, all of it is just he spends all

913
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:26,400
his time in politics, which doesn't make someone dumb or anything.

914
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,719
But it's like, if you don't know this stuff, you

915
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,320
shouldn't try to like speak about it yet, you know,

916
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,800
and then maybe ask some questions.

917
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, he's a smart guy.

918
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 4: I like a lot.

919
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he is a smart guy.

920
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: But there's a certain there's a certain level of knowledge

921
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,360
that you can't, like common sense can't really get you

922
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,480
over the line. A lot of the times in these

923
00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:51,440
sorts of conversations. You have to really have questioned your

924
00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:53,320
and like I'm I'm definitely no expert, Like I was

925
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,119
picking your brains a lot about this when we're in

926
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:58,559
when I was in Texas in December. But yeah, you

927
00:41:58,559 --> 00:41:59,960
have to be able to sort of like dig in

928
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:01,480
to the layer is of how you know what you

929
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:03,559
know and why you believe what you believe, and then

930
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:05,840
be able to challenge that once. Once you can challenge

931
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,639
your beliefs on your own, then you're doing our art.

932
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:13,639
Speaker 7: Yep, and seeing the cost of your beliefs in what sense.

933
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,679
Speaker 9: Seeing the cost of your release in the sense that

934
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:22,000
we all operate within a box. So to say, whatever

935
00:42:22,039 --> 00:42:25,280
your worldview is, if somebody says I don't have a worldview,

936
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,920
well you're still going to have a world a world

937
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:28,840
do you No matter what you.

938
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 7: Say, You're going to have things that condition the.

939
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,599
Speaker 5: Parameters of what you believe is possible, what you are,

940
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,559
what you should do, shouldn't do, And realize that everything

941
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:44,719
that you commit to as any type of philosophy, there's

942
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,079
things that are now excluded.

943
00:42:46,199 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 9: Right, I'm an orthodox Christian. I don't believe evil has

944
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,480
existence in a sense, right, there's a cost to that

945
00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:56,599
where it's like, no, there's repercussions to be consistent with that.

946
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,480
I believe it's true obviously, but there's a cost to it.

947
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,480
There's reps.

948
00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: That's it.

949
00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:05,679
Speaker 2: Principal Skinner sent Principal Skinner sent ten, thank you very much,

950
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,039
and David Moo sent twenty and said Tim needs real

951
00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:11,800
time and patience. Walking him through the details of what

952
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,880
he does not understand is going to be slog He

953
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,360
feels the pressure to appear the smartest person in the room,

954
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:18,639
and it shows he will get there.

955
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:19,119
Speaker 1: I hope.

956
00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:21,199
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think that Chase made a good point before. He'll,

957
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,480
like he do well to ask questions, you know, and

958
00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:26,360
just sort of understand that, and then he might be

959
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,559
able to piece things together. And there might be a

960
00:43:28,599 --> 00:43:30,920
few parts of the worldview that might have to die.

961
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,679
Speaker 1: But that's fine. That happens to all of us.

962
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: I guess.

963
00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:35,079
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's got the raw computing power. He's not a

964
00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:36,639
dumb dude. Tim's a smart guy.

965
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:38,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

966
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, if you have any questions or anything about

967
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,159
this or any statements, just said him in and we'll

968
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:43,159
worry him out.

969
00:43:43,159 --> 00:43:44,039
Speaker 1: But we'll continue here.

970
00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:48,639
Speaker 4: European cultures that develop science, space travel cures for diseases

971
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,920
and then effectively colonize the whole planet as well as

972
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,880
the Asian cultures have proven greatly that these moral worldviews

973
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,320
lend themselves greater to the actropic system within the entropy.

974
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,440
And then we would say, well, it's maybe a toss up,

975
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,679
but I do think that the American Judeo Christian or

976
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,960
just Christian moral values, which include things like private property,

977
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,400
have lended itself to the formation of complex systems that is,

978
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,079
life expansion and all the things that we cherish in

979
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:22,920
the world, and thus those are the things we aim for. Certainly,

980
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,000
these things are very subjective, and some people believe other things.

981
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,119
Some people might think it's better to watch the whole

982
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:30,320
world burn because humans are a virus that's spread like

983
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,000
a plague. I don't believe that, but I do recognize

984
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:35,440
I can't convince other people, nor do I know everything.

985
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,840
So in the end, I ultimately conclude, if we want

986
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,599
people to have families and have kids, private landownership is

987
00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:42,760
probably the best thing we can do.

988
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,599
Speaker 3: It's a good story, but it doesn't get to grounding

989
00:44:45,679 --> 00:44:49,000
or justification for why the right is actually something that

990
00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:51,719
is grounded in God. So storytelling is one thing.

991
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, it's grounded in God because God commands us

992
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:56,760
to be fruitful and multiply and the.

993
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 3: But you don't accept that revelation, so it's just I

994
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:00,519
do what he'll do.

995
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,079
Speaker 1: Well, you said you're not you're back and on camera,

996
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:06,559
it's good to see you. Yeah, oh okay, sweet sweet.

997
00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they just said Jay's just said the part

998
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:10,880
about the story. So it's nice, but it's like, it's

999
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,440
a good story and everything, but it doesn't actually give

1000
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,480
you grounding for the right in God because if he's

1001
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:20,880
talking about Christianity from a totally utilitarian point of view

1002
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,119
here and how you know, it's best for the entropy

1003
00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:26,400
and stuff then, and it's best for the complex processes

1004
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,800
and we'll probably find something later that's better. Maybe Islam's

1005
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,239
better because they have a lot of kids and everything.

1006
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,719
Then you actually it's it's it's the logical leap of

1007
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,519
them trying to justify some sort of a transcendental category

1008
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:40,639
in the Christian God. When you've just said that that

1009
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,960
isn't a real thing. Is quite something. If you enjoy

1010
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,960
that clip, then don't forget to like and subscribe, And

1011
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,800
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