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See website for details. 25 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.959 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.079 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:25.439 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 28 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:29.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:33.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.680 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.359 Good evening for Tony read. This case began as a 32 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.439 claim of innocence in the murder of Donna Joe Richmond 33 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.760 in nineteen seventy five. While the errors in the original 34 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:58.159 investigation and a flawed trial resulted in a guilty verdict, 35 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.640 the reassessment confirmed that the defendant was framed, but the 36 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.719 question became by whom. Working with a new team of investigators, 37 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.360 which included two of the original detectives, the probe uncovered 38 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.560 a startling new possibility. Was the real culprit a serial offender. 39 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.680 Turning to the public for information, mister Reid created the 40 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.599 twelve twenty six to seventy five podcasts based on primary 41 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:23.759 evidence and new interviews surrounding the murder of Donna Joe 42 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.439 on that date in Exeter, California. The team re examined 43 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:31.240 every possibility. The investigator soon found something more than a 44 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.159 terribly failed verdict. They discovered connections to the unsolved murders 45 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.599 of Jennifer Armour and Claude Snelling and links to the 46 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.319 East Area rapist. The uncovered shocking corruption by the original 47 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.159 lead investigator, who illegally destroyed trial evidence and looked into 48 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:50.039 the unexplained death of the original defense attorney. This pursuit 49 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.199 led them right back to Exeter, where a new suspect 50 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.360 and these murders emerged Joseph DiAngelo, who was then a 51 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.800 full time sergeant with the local police department, the officer 52 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.039 in charge of violent crimes and burglary investigations. This book 53 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:07.719 is more than an adaptation of the twelve twenty six 54 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.599 seventy five podcasts. It shares new insight formed during the 55 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:15.759 investigation and provides a firsthand look at the Tullari crimes, 56 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.840 as well as exposing the faulty evidence used to obtain 57 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.400 and maintain the false conviction. More than anything else, twelve 58 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:27.800 twenty six seventy five demonstrates the enormous consequences of letting 59 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.240 a serial killer go free, made worse when combined with 60 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:35.919 the painful mistakes, infighting and finger pointing by certain jurisdictions, 61 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.919 the catastrophic results are undeniable. Now that the mystery of 62 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:42.919 how it unfolded is revealed, we can also begin to 63 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.639 examine the reforms necessary to prevent this tragedy from happening again. 64 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:50.879 The book that we're featuring this evening is twelve twenty six, 65 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.919 seventy five with my special guest attorney, private investigator and author, 66 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:57.719 Tony Reid. Welcome to the program, and thank you so 67 00:03:57.800 --> 00:03:59.800 much for this interview. Tony Reid. 68 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:01.599 Thank you so much for having me, Dan, I really 69 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:02.759 appreciate the opportunity. 70 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:03.879 Thank you so much. 71 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.159 Just when I thought I knew so much about this story, 72 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.960 had no idea, So thank you so much for this 73 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.759 incredible investigation. And right away tell us who this book 74 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:14.759 is dedicated to. 75 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:19.800 And why well, the book is dedicated to retired Sergeant 76 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.160 John Vaughn, who worked with the Facilia Police Department for 77 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.839 a number of years. In his capacity, he was sergeant 78 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:30.079 and was the lead investigator on the promise side of 79 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.759 Claude Snelling, who was killed in Visilia on September eleventh 80 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:38.319 eineteen seventy five, and John really then led the investigation 81 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:44.680 for several months afterwards, pursuing this aspect and then followed 82 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.199 the tracks of the offender, who was then unknown up 83 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.360 to Sacramento, was repudiated there turned away and the connections 84 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.519 were denied, and really kind of just held a lot 85 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.920 of the problems of the investigation in his own part, 86 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.199 good idea to get involved again, But quickly when he 87 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.199 saw what the evidence was and why I was asking, 88 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:11.120 he more than willingly opened up his heart and his 89 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.639 mind back to get into the case again, and it 90 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.680 truly helped sort out so many of the immense mysteries 91 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:24.480 that were present, how things got flubbed and what happened, 92 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.279 and so really without John's assistance that the case would 93 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:33.360 have not been possible, no part of this investigation would 94 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:37.199 have been there. He really helped solve so many of 95 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:38.519 those critical mysteries. 96 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.040 Tell our audience who Margie Smith is and her role 97 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:44.040 in all of this. 98 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.360 Margie is a faciliar resident. She lived in the city 99 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.279 at the time of where the rams actings were going on. 100 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.680 Quite interestingly too, it just so happens that on the 101 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:59.040 day that we're talking about, the principal date of the book, 102 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:02.439 December twenty sixth, eighteen seventy five, that she was working 103 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.560 at the office of the real term whose name is 104 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.480 Bill Rose, and Margie was working there as secretary and 105 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.279 had seen Oscar Clifton the day that he came in, 106 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:20.439 and had known him through those connections and just never 107 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:24.800 seemed to fit right that this person with whom she 108 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:28.800 had very brief contact, stories that she really helped set 109 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.680 a lot of the mysteries in action. 110 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:33.319 Do you think of a couple other people and important 111 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.360 people in the East Area Rapist Original Nights Soccer case, 112 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:42.040 Richard Shelby and Larry Crompton and Larry Poole tell us 113 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.920 the role of all these law enforcement professionals. 114 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.560 Well in the terms of Richard Shelby and Larry Crompton, 115 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:54.120 both of those individuals have written books that were extremely helpful, 116 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:59.399 but particularly Richard Shelby is an individual who also opened 117 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.959 up his mind to the questions and he was sitting 118 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.600 on the other side of the fence for the East 119 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:08.399 Aia Rapist series. He was one of the individuals who 120 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.399 was started working the cases as soon as the Easteria 121 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:15.319 rapist emergen Sacramento. He was the lead investigator there and 122 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:19.720 at the time when the connection was first presented as 123 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.199 a possibility between Visilia and Sacramento. He was working the case, 124 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.959 and so he really also understood what was going on, 125 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:32.160 and the Sacramento investigators so really quite understanding what happened 126 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:37.839 with the breakdown between why this suspect lead was very valuable, 127 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.839 suspect lead was not properly investigated, how they got derailed. 128 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.680 Richard was the person who really answered that question. And 129 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:50.000 in one word, it comes down to hypnosis. And that's 130 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:52.560 something that I get into quite extensively in the book, 131 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:56.879 because I don't believe people really understood exactly how it 132 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:00.839 was used, how it was treated as evident in this 133 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.839 period kind of became popularized. But how also it can 134 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.519 be either extremely beneficial to a case, where it can 135 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.439 be very detrimental. However, regardless of however you look at it, 136 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.160 after nineteen eighty one, it was absolutely forbidden in the 137 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:21.560 courtrooms of California, and it never should have after that 138 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.920 had the impact on the case that it did. And 139 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.800 so the other individual that you mentioned, Larry Pool. By 140 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:30.879 the time I was contacting him, Larry had left law enforcement. 141 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.879 He was out in the private sector, and since several 142 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:38.159 messages engaging him about the case, pointing out some of 143 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.480 the evidence that we had developed for the Exeter suspect, 144 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:46.080 and bouncing off the ideas about the timeline, the evidence, 145 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.200 the connections, and saying you know too, Larry was one 146 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:54.120 of the few individuals who really believed the viability of 147 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.799 the Visiliate connection, and so it was very important to 148 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:00.200 have his perspective on the case and for him to 149 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.120 assist early on in attempting to have some referrals go 150 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.159 to the then current investigators, those who were still involved, 151 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.480 and then unfortunately having that derailed as well. That's very painful. 152 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.879 You say, there's several contributors who were some of the 153 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:19.919 greatest who deserve some of the greatest acknowledgement. Yes, so 154 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:24.600 can't be personally identified, including direct witnesses, victims and laws 155 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.799 enforcement officers and their surviving family members. But you also 156 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:32.440 acknowledge a few reporters, and so you talk about lou Griswold, 157 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.519 but also Lily Luciano and Mike Bannell of ABC ten 158 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.480 tell us about their role in this. 159 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.879 Who was a person that I met in Visilia. I 160 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.120 had gone up quite early on after I'd done some 161 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.039 of my initial investigations. In fact, after I had met 162 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:53.080 with the current team at Vicilia police department, and word 163 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.200 was getting around the community about some of the investigation, 164 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.039 and one of the leaders of the local road asked 165 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.639 me to come to a presentation, and Margie and actually 166 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:06.080 did this together and kind of gave a quick overview 167 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.039 of the case and talked about some of the important connections, 168 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.919 what we were looking at, the idea of the suspect 169 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:17.720 being an exeter. And after that presentation at the rotary, 170 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.360 lu Griswold approached me and then you know, he kind 171 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.000 of said, hey, this this sounds quite interesting. And Louis 172 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.480 still then a reported with the Fresno b so he 173 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:31.080 was friends with the with Sergeant Vaughn and remembered the 174 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.960 investigation and kind of got interested, reinvigorated in the story 175 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.120 and helped write some of the early interviews, but also 176 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:44.480 wrote a really important interview post arrest which thanked John 177 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:49.559 Vaughan for his contributions to the original investigation, and he 178 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:53.720 titled that article sweet Vindication for the simple reason that 179 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.279 John never really got the credit that he fully deserved 180 00:10:57.320 --> 00:10:59.960 for having put together the investigation correctly. In the first 181 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.200 and then the other two that you mentioned Lilia and Mike, 182 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.159 I worked with those two reporters for the better part 183 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:09.519 of a year, gave them full access to the case, 184 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.840 gave them, you know, a lot of my list of witnesses, 185 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.440 showed them at every page of the police reports, of 186 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.840 the transcripts, anything they wanted to see, they got access to. 187 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.159 Any questions that they had, they got access to. So 188 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.159 it was really, you know, it was an immense task 189 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:32.399 that this case is and you had mentioned earlier that 190 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:35.559 this is this whole story is so overwhelming, how do 191 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:37.879 you keep it straight? They had done, you know, a 192 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.600 full year's worth of investigation. They traveled with me around 193 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.519 the various locations for a couple of days and we 194 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:50.399 recorded on site interviews. They had also gone and spoken 195 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.639 to many of the locals in question, and of course 196 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:57.399 with the District Attorney's office, and really put together fantastic 197 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:01.279 series which is still available on YouTube, Asking the Question 198 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.320 framed by the Golden State Color. That's the title of 199 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.559 the series, and it's in five different parts and is 200 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:11.480 really worthwhile watching for anyone who's interested in the story 201 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.720 to be able to understand, you know, where these locations were, 202 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.840 who was involved. It's a great summary of the case, 203 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:21.759 and so they deserve tremendous amount of credit for getting 204 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:25.879 some very valuable interviews and providing some new insights beyond 205 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.240 even what I could provide. 206 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:31.080 Now, before we talk about what D'Angelo was doing, Joseph 207 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.399 DiAngelo was doing in nineteen seventy two, tell us a 208 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.159 little bit about the creation of the twelve twenty six 209 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:38.600 seventy five podcast. 210 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:42.360 Sure, so, you know, as we talked about, we had 211 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.720 gone through and met with a lot of these early investigators. 212 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:48.919 We shared with them the reports that we had at 213 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:51.879 that point and asked them for the information. They had 214 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:56.200 then taken and referred the case out to their contemporaries. 215 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.919 When it came back, it came back as crickets. There 216 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.000 is a terrible le legacy in this case, and that 217 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.559 is that once the Visalia linkage was broken, and that 218 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:10.200 happened in nineteen seventy eight, fully and firmly, once that 219 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.639 got derailed, no one wanted to hear the name of 220 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.720 that city who was involved in this investigation. Nobody wanted 221 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.200 to hear that name place again. And anytime it came up, 222 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.320 it was that's been disproven, that's debunked, that's garbage. I'm 223 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.120 not even going to listen to anything that was wrong. 224 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:31.720 For so many reasons that John explained. However, that was 225 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.759 the accepted narrative, and when we put together the idea, 226 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:38.480 it's like, how are we going to repair this? If 227 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.399 law enforcement aren't taking this seriously now and the public 228 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.360 have this misperception, how do we go about correcting it? 229 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.480 So that was really the genesis of the idea for 230 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.080 the podcast, the website, the social media is to set 231 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:55.200 out the idea to say, let's re record some of 232 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.960 these original transcripts and police reports. Let's tell the story 233 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:03.840 about what happened, what went wrong, and see if there 234 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.159 are enough people who are interested in this who can 235 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:10.120 come forward and supplement some of this information and perhaps 236 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:14.840 set it right and explain what happened with some of 237 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:19.320 the misconnections. And really, there were a couple of things 238 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.320 that happened in response to this, and I'll summarize those 239 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.960 as being the polar opposite. We had a tremendous number 240 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.360 of people who reached out and provided first hand accounts, 241 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.559 agreed to interviews, provided some new evidence for what was 242 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.039 going on, and then quite the opposite, the people who 243 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:42.679 wanted to continue the narrative that the connection was improper 244 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.000 in the first place, to debunk it, and then to 245 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.639 go so far as to publicly expound to in as 246 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.840 many ways as they could, whether it was a national 247 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.480 media or local media, to continue this narrative that was 248 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.879 completely flawed. It was in essence of this battle between 249 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.200 two opposingarratives and was this true or was this not true? 250 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:05.679 So that's really the genesis of the podcast and why 251 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.440 it was important to be able to write the book 252 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:09.440 and everything else for. 253 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:14.559 This incredible event to happen, for this investigation that derailed. 254 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.279 Like you say, in nineteen seventy eight, you introduce all 255 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.960 of the important and crucial characters, but first you go 256 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.080 back to nineteen seventy two and tell us what Joseph 257 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.279 DiAngelo was doing at twenty six years of age. 258 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.919 Well, the important part of this whole narrative, and what 259 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.799 I try to really present in the book, is that 260 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:40.200 the book itself is really not about Jodyangelo. It's about 261 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.919 the people who were investigating him. It's about law enforcement. 262 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.639 But I think one of the things that is most 263 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.679 troubling here for the public to understand is that Joseph 264 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:58.080 di'angelo was a fully trained law enforcement officer, far more 265 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:02.240 well trained than many of his contemporaries. In nineteen sixty 266 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.639 eight he began his career Polease studies. He got two 267 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.120 years here at college, got his AA. Then by nineteen 268 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:13.279 seventy two he had completed his advanced degree, his BA 269 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:18.919 at Sacramento State, and shortly thereafter he joined the Roseville 270 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.960 Police Department as an intern in their Investigation and Identification Bureau. 271 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:28.759 And so what had happened there was, you know, one 272 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.639 of the critical mysteries is where was the lead up 273 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:35.759 series to the ransacker? Where did he start? Was one 274 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:39.679 of the questions that Larry Pool was very creative in 275 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.559 asking about his investigation. One of the things he pent 276 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:46.879 back was where was Jodyangelo when he started? And come 277 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.279 to find out that the lead up series was actually 278 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:54.159 in Rancho Cordova. We now know that he was the 279 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:58.519 Cordova cat burglar. He then moved down to Exeter in 280 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:03.159 the first part of nineteen seventy three, but really for 281 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.759 that time period where he'd finished at Sex State in 282 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.960 seventy two, and before he had moved there, he had 283 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:16.240 spent a good almost a year being this home invasion 284 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.759 cat burglar in the Ranch Cortdova area, and so that 285 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.400 really is his genesis. But it's very important, and I 286 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.920 want to reemphasize the fact that this case is extremely 287 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.680 unusual and remains relevant and important for the simple fact 288 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:38.960 that we still don't fully understand exactly the role of 289 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.720 his police training. What did he know and how did 290 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:47.799 he use that advantage to escape detection? For all of 291 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.359 this time it was clear that he was a police officer, 292 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.039 and what does that mean for society? How can we 293 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.960 prevent this from happening again? If we don't really fully 294 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:04.960 explore the role of his participation in law enforcement For 295 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.839 six and a half years he was an active, sworn 296 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.319 police officer in the state of California. What does that 297 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:11.319 mean you talk. 298 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.480 About though that's not so well known at all. Is 299 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.839 your idea about his motivation? Yes, you talk about the 300 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:25.319 average IQ used by jurisdictions, by police departments to hire candidates, 301 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.960 And so tell us what your ideas are about this 302 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.799 IQ and d'angelo's resentment. 303 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.319 You know, it is an interesting question because there is 304 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.720 actually a There was a civil rights suit brought by 305 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:44.359 someone who failed an IQ test, not because he was 306 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:49.039 too because he lacked intelligence, but because he was too intelligent. 307 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.880 So he sued the local department asking for a re 308 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.480 examination that allowed him to join the police force because 309 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.519 the theory that the state but the courts upheld the 310 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.480 idea that a law enforcement officer could be too smart 311 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.279 to join the ranks is that you know, someone who 312 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.039 is too smart is going to get bored. And we 313 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:17.680 don't know exactly what happened in the mind of Jody Angel. 314 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.079 He has not spoken in any way about that part 315 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:26.880 of his experiences and what happened to why he joined 316 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.480 Exeter PD. What we do know is that when he 317 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:34.880 did join, many of his colleagues had asked, I think 318 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.839 a very reasonable question, why is it someone like you, 319 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.319 with all of your training and experience, when you're so 320 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.319 smart you should be with the FBI, Why are you 321 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.079 here in this small little city of Exeter. And so 322 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.559 it turns out, yes, that there is a there is 323 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.559 a threshold, and law enforcement entities really do prefer to 324 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.799 keep people within a very tight range of the bell 325 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.119 curve and not too smart and certainly not unintelligent, and 326 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.200 as police officers. So when it gets down to motive, 327 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.160 one of the things that is very clear from the 328 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.359 pattern of activity is that Jodi Angelo was always responding 329 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.359 to the press and was directly it appears to me 330 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:17.960 as if he was directly engaging with some of the 331 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.559 particular officers his you know, want by putting the crimes 332 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:27.720 onto maps and understanding the exact locations and everything. One 333 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.079 of the things that became very clear and checking this out, 334 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:34.119 sounding this out with the investigators, it was quite obvious 335 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:39.599 that the offender would strike in and with great knowledge 336 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:44.519 of jurisdictional boundaries. Jurisdictional boundaries play a big role in policing. 337 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.079 If you're even if you're half a mile outside of 338 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.839 city limits and into the county, that affects exactly who 339 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.039 is going to be investigating this crime. And we certainly 340 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.960 see that in the book twenty six to seventy five. 341 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.599 There is there are two other beyond the Richmond case, 342 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:05.720 or two other very compelling instances where it's documented the 343 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:10.920 offender is striking with great jurisdictional precision. To me, that 344 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:16.319 demonstrates that it was a knowledge of those areas that 345 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.640 allowed him to perhaps play what I call a game 346 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:24.279 of cat and mouse, hitting in particular areas, knowing that 347 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.079 certain officers would get that case and to be able 348 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:31.119 to play that chase game with them directly. 349 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.960 Is it important to as you note that under this 350 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.960 cat Burglar, the Gordovas metals cat burglar. That all of 351 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:45.599 these monikers, early monikers before Vasselia Ransacker were the privy 352 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.640 of the police themselves. They weren't released to the media, 353 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.519 and you talk about him interacting with the media. So 354 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:54.720 how important is it that all of these burglaries, say 355 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:58.839 two hundred burglaries, were really not noted by the media. Whatsoever? 356 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.759 Was there something to that his need. 357 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:03.799 You know it is It is hard to say again 358 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.319 because we don't have any true insight into the mind 359 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:10.720 of this individual. He has not been willing to speak 360 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.559 since to the public and has not spoken to any reporters. 361 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.440 So there's a great deal that we're still missing and 362 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.000 when would be appreciated at some point if we can, 363 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:22.880 if we can figure that out. But one of the 364 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.000 things that is clear, like for instance, with Cordova, that 365 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.319 wasn't that was a name that was used only internally, 366 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:30.680 and that name does not appear in any of the 367 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.960 newspaper stories. It didn't really even receive much attention outside 368 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.440 the burglary unit for the Sheriff's department there, And the 369 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:43.599 same is very much true with the Vasilia Ransacker. The 370 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:46.920 name was barely used at all during the time that 371 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.079 the bulk of the burglaries were occurring. It was something 372 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.880 that was kind of whispered around town. It's like, you know, what, 373 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.119 what what do we call this person? When you have 374 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.839 an unknown subject, they often then take on a name. 375 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.880 And I've got a few others that are named here 376 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.400 in the book other relevant cases, and those would be 377 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:09.599 examples like the Portville rapist or even the Tillary Cap burglar. 378 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:14.759 And these names get floated around as to to help 379 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.279 in a way to help law enforcement identify it and 380 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:22.039 solicit information, but to at least have a way to 381 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.519 refer to the case easily. The monikers serve those purposes. 382 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:30.480 It's really hard to say with jody'angelo exactly what rule 383 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.640 he had, if any, in you know, creating these other 384 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:38.480 than you know, his his jurisdictional precision, striking specifically within 385 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.000 a very narrow range in Rancho Cordova and then returning 386 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.240 to that exact same neighborhood as the Easter Area rapist. 387 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.119 What does that mean? I don't know the answer to 388 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:49.720 that question. 389 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:55.759 So tell us about DeAngelo's work with Exeter Police, his 390 00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.759 role there, and how that was connected to his crimes. 391 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.000 Well, we know that he joined Exeter Police Department as 392 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:09.680 patrolman in nineteen seventy three. He did not leave Exeter 393 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:14.400 Police Department until mid August of nineteen seventy six, so 394 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:19.680 it was just more than three years. And something I 395 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:23.359 think another error that's floating rout there in the public 396 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:28.759 narrative is this idea that as soon as the composite 397 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:35.440 sketch came out in Visalia following the encounter with Sector McGowan, 398 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.039 the shooting in the backyard of the war residents that 399 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:43.279 happened in late mid December excuse me, of nineteen seventy five, 400 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.519 so well after D'Angelo had already been in that area 401 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.640