WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.399 This is the summer to expand your horizons. It's time 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:06.360 to explore. But before you set foot out the door, 3 00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:09.880 set foot in the ultimate lightweight, superpackable travel shoes from 4 00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:12.720 All Birds. Find your perfect pair at allbirds dot com. 5 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:15.279 That's all brds dot com. 6 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.960 We're outside the travel agency, a cannabis store that's got 7 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:19.839 everyone buzzom and. 8 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:20.239 I walked it. 9 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.559 I felt like I was in the elite of the skies, 10 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:24.600 like I'm about to get elevated and lifted in the 11 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.079 best way. Got the important essential things I need sleep, 12 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:30.640 So tinctures salves to relax my body, right the best 13 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:31.600 New York flowers. 14 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:33.759 Come down to the travel agency and see for yourself. 15 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:35.679 Pre Use only by adults age twenty one an older. 16 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:37.399 Keep out of reach of children and pets. In case 17 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.240 of accellent ingestion or over consumption, contact the National Poison 18 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.039 Control Center Consumer Responsibly. 19 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:46.600 Loop Hop Radio. 20 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.159 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 21 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 22 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:09.640 written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 23 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:13.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 24 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:17.640 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 25 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:24.439 Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 26 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:35.560 Good Evening. Fred Rosen is a former columnist for the 27 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.719 Arts and Leisures section of the New York Times. He's 28 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:42.799 also one of the most important and successful figures in 29 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.680 true crime writing and the author of several true crime classics. 30 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.159 He got off to an incredible start with Lobster Boy 31 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:54.159 in nineteen ninety five, Blood Crimes in nineteen ninety six, 32 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.760 and Gangmum and The Mad Chopper, both published in nineteen 33 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.280 ninety eight. Deacon of Death was published in two thousand, 34 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.200 Needlework in two thousand and one. Both Body Dump and 35 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:09.319 Flesh Collectors were published in two thousand and two, The 36 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.280 Historical Atlas of American Crime in two thousand and five. 37 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.879 When Satan Wore Across and There But for the Grace 38 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:18.360 of God were both published in two thousand and seven, 39 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.000 Deadly Angel in two thousand and nine, and Trails of 40 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:25.400 Death in twenty eleven. Did They Really Do It was 41 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.039 published in twenty fifteen. Born to the Mob and Murdering 42 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.319 the President were published in two thousand and sixteen, The 43 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.400 Bayou Strangler in two thousand and seventeen, and Bat Masterson 44 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:41.120 in twenty nineteen. We will discuss how he got started 45 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:44.759 in what cases and killers in particular most shaped his 46 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:48.840 remarkable true crime body of work. The episode tonight is 47 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:52.800 Fred Rosen True Crime Retrospective. My special guest journalist and 48 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:57.080 author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank 49 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:58.840 you very much for this. Fred Rosen. 50 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.639 Oh, Dan, I'm overwhelmed, I really am. I mean, as 51 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.319 you were reading off those books, you know it brings 52 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:10.280 back all these memories. 53 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:13.000 You know, Well, that's good. Yes. 54 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.639 Do you know what's interesting when you look back on 55 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.960 a book and you know this, When you look back 56 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:25.479 at a book, you don't remember necessarily yeah, I mean 57 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:28.199 you remember some of the details about the case, depending 58 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.360 upon what the case is, but you also remember what 59 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.360 was going on personally, you know. 60 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:40.800 Sure, let's talk about the books in particular. As I 61 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.000 mentioned and in the introduction, you got off to incredible 62 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.120 start with Lobster Boy. Now, where were you previous to 63 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:52.719 Lobster Boy in your career? And give us the particulars 64 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:57.479 the circumstances in which this book, very important, true crime 65 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:02.759 classic with the wildest and true crime history. Tell us 66 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.599 about Lobster Boy, tell us about the genesis of Lobster 67 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.759 Boy and your career as a result. 68 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.719 Okay, thank you. I'll tell you what happened. I had 69 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:17.920 actually done another true crime book prior to that, called 70 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:25.639 Doctors from Hell, right, And what happened was and and 71 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:30.439 what happened was I was trying to sell a novel 72 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.839 and I got friendly for various reasons, you know, with 73 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:40.360 this editor. His name is Paul Dennis, who really shaped 74 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.600 a lot of true crime at Pinnacle Books, right, and 75 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:50.040 he's and I was standing on the corner of Park 76 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:55.480 Avenue and thirty fourth Street in the middle of Manhattan, 77 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.600 ban and he said to me, well, you know what, 78 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:00.279 I don't want to publish your novel, but like you 79 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.839 to work on this book called Doctors from Hell. I 80 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:11.639 need a journalist. And I was teaching journalism at the time, okay, 81 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:16.199 at Hastra University, so uh, you know he offered me. 82 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:18.959 You know, I remember the wind. You know, it was 83 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:23.079 almost like a what do you call it? A spiritual moment. 84 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.519 You know. I was thinking, you know, do I do 85 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.759 I do this? Because it wasn't something that I was 86 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:33.920 necessarily looking to do. It was an opportunity and I 87 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.360 went with it. And then what happened loss the boy. Okay, 88 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.040 shortly after I do that book. Oh man, I'm in Florida, 89 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.959 Yeah it was. I was. I was on vacation and 90 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.560 I saw something in the local paper about a case 91 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:03.639 involving a lobster boy. And I'm going, uh right, okay 92 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:08.399 and uh and I called and I called up pulled Dennis, 93 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.639 the editor, and I said, you know, this is a 94 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:14.879 weird case. He says, it's your next book. So what 95 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.120 he says, it's your next book. Okay, it's my next book. 96 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:27.879 So I start looking into it, and uh, there was 97 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:33.560 there was the What happened, okay, what happened was Brady 98 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.160 Styles Junior, who's lobster boy was a circus I'm sorry, 99 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:43.160 carnif Freak, who had ecodactyly which is what caused the 100 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.000 feet and the and they hands to fuse and give 101 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:47.800 him what looked like the lobster cause. 102 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:49.519 Okay, he was. 103 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.680 He was abusive to the family, blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, 104 00:06:52.759 --> 00:07:00.720 loves for short his wife, working with her our son, 105 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:07.199 who is his steps on, Grady's stepson, they harbor a 106 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:13.879 hit man to come into the house and kill him. Well, 107 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:23.399 uh I I uh the the attorney for uh for 108 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:31.720 the wife sent out a video tape and it was 109 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.040 it was supposed to be used and heard defense. So 110 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.839 what it shows is Lops the boy wrestling with his 111 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:42.759 song Lops the Boys Jr. Okay, right. And I get 112 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.199 a copy of it, Dan, I don't know if I 113 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.680 ever talked about this. I don't think I have. And 114 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:51.720 and I get a copy of it, and I, you know, 115 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.879 and I listened to it, you know, I play you know, 116 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.199 it's this is back in the nineties, so it's it's video. 117 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:07.040 And uh, what you hear in the background is tibbetzy. 118 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:12.879 I think I have to translate that. Huh right, timbosing 119 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.319 is a Yiddish term for kidding around. You hear the 120 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:21.160 family kidding around in the background. Okay, fade out, fade in. 121 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:26.920 I go to the trial. I'm at the trial, and 122 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:38.720 the the the During the trial, the defense attorney shows 123 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:46.919 the tape, except he turns down the sound and it's silent. 124 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.000 I didn't know he turned it down. I found that 125 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:52.799 out later. But when you look at it without sound, 126 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:57.320 it looks like the fathers of using the son, Right, 127 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.679 So what is what does your buddy do? He walks 128 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:04.399 up to the prosecutor. I walk up to the prosecutor 129 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:08.240 and I said, my copy of the tape has has 130 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.120 sound and there's Kimbecy and he said, get me a 131 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:15.000 copy of it. Send it, Send it. It's evidence in 132 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.480 a murder case. Oh my god, you know this this 133 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.919 was you know, I'm going, what the hell do I do? Dan? 134 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.200 You know, I'm getting involved in a murder case directly. 135 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.759 And you know usually journalists don't do those things, and 136 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:36.759 you know we report, we don't get involved. Well, let'll 137 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.639 tell you what. So I have to decide. I mean, 138 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.320 I got the tape, and you were asking what I 139 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.000 was doing at that time. I was still teaching. But 140 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.000 get this. I get the tape. Okay, I'm in and 141 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.840 I'm in a hotel room in Tampa and I get 142 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.360 a phone call and it's from the school I was 143 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:02.039 teaching at the telling me, I, I'm not getting tenured 144 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:05.320 because my degree is in film, it's not in journalism. 145 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.519 I'm not qualified to continue teaching. And I look at 146 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.440 the tape and I'm going, okay, I'm not qualified to 147 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.840 teach the journalism, but I'm about to break a major 148 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.600 murder cake. And I had to decide what to do 149 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.320 with the tape? Did it was? It was one of 150 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:25.200 the most pivotal moments in my life because I knew 151 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.799 if I turned it over, she'd get convicted, and I 152 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.639 was putting my life at risk. So I didn't know 153 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.480 what to do. And I sat in the room, I 154 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:42.039 looked out the window, and I went back to my childhood, 155 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.039 and I thought, what would the lone ranger do? Because 156 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:54.679 he was huh And so I said, the lone ranger 157 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.799 would turn over the tape and would serve justice regardless 158 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:03.480 of the consequences. And that's always been the way that 159 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.320 that I functioned, you knows, in terms of the way 160 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.039 I work. And so that's what happened. I turned the 161 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.679 tape over, and sure enough, the yeah, I got, I got, 162 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.679 I gotta you know, I got, I got a threat 163 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.320 from the family, but thank god, nothing happened. 164 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.399 And were you criticized by them? Were you criticized by 165 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.240 the media at all? With your stats? 166 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:35.200 Oh yeah, well yeah, there were some people that criticized me. Yeah. Yeah. 167 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:42.279 But the funny thing is Dan, as sensational as this sounds, 168 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:48.159 it didn't get very much in the way of national publicity. 169 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:50.480 Really, I don't know. 170 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.240 Yeah, And now it could be because it was the 171 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.080 mid nineties and you know it's different today, obviously, I mean, 172 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:01.600 you know, but no, so, yeah, there was some people 173 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:06.639 that criticized me, but I just, you know, I just 174 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:07.759 rolled with the punches. 175 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.679 The publisher, Pinnacle at the time, must have been pretty 176 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:18.600 happy with the results. And so you get to your 177 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:24.480 next book. In nineteen ninety six, Blood Crimes. Yeah, Brian 178 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.000 Freeman and his fifteen year old brother murdered their entire 179 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:32.120 family mother, mother, father, and younger brother. And these are 180 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.759 neo Nazi skinheads. Tell us just something that comes to 181 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.279 mind with this, your second book, Blood Crimes. 182 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:47.840 I'll tell you what comes to mind. They were the 183 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:52.519 brothers with Jehovah's witnesses, so they rebelled against the parents 184 00:12:52.559 --> 00:13:01.279 by becoming skinheads. It's weird, but they got friendly when 185 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.320 they escaped after they did the killing. They went up 186 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:12.559 to Michigan and they with some white supremacist friends. What 187 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:19.440 happens during the trial, which is in Allantown, Pennsylvania. Their 188 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:23.559 white supremacist friend's skinhead friend comes down to testify. 189 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:31.879 And I'm sitting here and I got to stop myself 190 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.519 from laughing so much because what happens is I started 191 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:36.240 talking to him. 192 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:39.960 You know, I'm a reporter, and you know, of course 193 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:44.000 I'm thinking to myself, Jiefred, it's a little bit weird, 194 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.200 a Jewish guy talking to neo Nazi blah blah blah. 195 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.639 But I said, you know what, I'm working, and I 196 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.240 floked to the guy who says, oh, I need to 197 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.240 live to the airport. I drove the neo Nazi to 198 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:02.840 the airport. All it was, it was, and you know 199 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.679 it was. It was very interesting because he gave me 200 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:10.039 the information about the brothers. 201 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:14.679 Yeah, amazing, and and and and. 202 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.720 The other thing that was interesting about that was that 203 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.879 because I had lived in Brooklyn Heights section of Brooklyn, 204 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:26.039 a neighborhood in Brooklyn, and that is where the the 205 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:31.840 Uh Jehovah's witnesses are based. That's where they have their 206 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.399 world headquarters. So I was very familiar with with. 207 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:47.399 Witness Okay, let's talk about Gang Mom. This is very 208 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:54.759 interesting case of incredible deception. Was Mary Louise Thompson uh 209 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.759 mother of a troubled team. She had been an active 210 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:04.440 become an active painter against team gang activity. What did 211 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.279 the neighbors find out about the model mother. 212 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:13.840 The neighbors found out in it was Eugene Washington that 213 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:18.399 she was running her own, her own street gang. That 214 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:23.679 while she was coming across publicly as an advocate against gangs, 215 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:30.200 she had her own gang. And uh, she running her 216 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:42.440 own gang. And eventually she her son, rather her son. 217 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:48.000 What happens is she winds up, she winds up getting 218 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:54.840 one member of her of the gang to kill a boy, 219 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.919 a teenager that's going to testify against her son in 220 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.759 a case. And that's why she winds up going to 221 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:08.039 jail for life, you know. And this is this is 222 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.919 the Pacific Northwest. They don't get around with these things, 223 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.480 you know what I mean, they're they're they're very you know, 224 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:18.799 it's not someplace you're going to get away with something 225 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:19.279 like that. 226 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:27.240 What do you remember about the mad Chopper type of Florida? 227 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:32.720 Oh boy, I'll tell you what I remember about the 228 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:40.120 Mad Chopper, Oh boy. Uh. I had to take two trips. 229 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.200 I always go to the scene of the crime always, 230 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.000 and so the first trip was down to Florida where 231 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.600 he killed a murdered a a prostitute. But then I 232 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:58.519 went out to California because the reason he was called 233 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:03.679 the Mad Chopper it's awful. He shopped, he kidnapped the 234 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:09.119 young girl and chopped though for wrong. Yeah, and I 235 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:13.799 mean it's and he wound up getting, oh, you know, 236 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.839 a lot of years in prison. And I wound up going. 237 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:18.160 Up to. 238 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:24.200 I actually went up to northern California to the area 239 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:28.440 where it happened. You know, I went to the scene 240 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.200 of the crime, and and I talked to the it 241 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.400 was it was and I also was I remember Modesto. Uh, 242 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:40.359 I had to go to Modesto and uh I talked 243 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.400 to the police officer there who was the the detective 244 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.559 on the case. It was just, it was just but 245 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.480 it was. It was a very very upsetting case because 246 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.559 the girl, oh god, you know, she never recovered, you know, 247 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.240 I mean, sure she got you know, an artificial are 248 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.720 but you know, emotionally forget about. 249 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:09.680 The interesting thing was she testified that trial though remarkably 250 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.240 Yeah she was. 251 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:19.039 Yeah, I mean, but it but it uh, it was, man, 252 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:29.440 it was the mere fact that the law let and 253 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.240 they changed it afterwards, I know they changed it. They 254 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.119 let the guy out was ridiculous. I mean it was 255 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:42.200 really really ridiculous. And uh so and when when they 256 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.440 did let him out, no community would take them. You know, 257 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.839 they had to move him around. 258 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:57.759 Incredible. Yeah, you have a couple again, sheeps and wolves 259 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.359 in sheep's clothing. Pardon me, uh, A couple of remarkable 260 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.079 stories involving something that people would not believe if it 261 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.960 were not for they would believe it will have hard 262 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.519 time believing if it was fictional. This deacon of death 263 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:19.400 church deacon Smithers. This is in Tampa by day, he's 264 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.720 the church deacon. But what's he doing at night? And 265 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:24.680 what does it lead to? 266 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.079 Well? I also have a memory on that book too. 267 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.599 What happens is what Sam is doing is at night, 268 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.240 he leaves his house and he ticks and he picks 269 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:44.319 up girls along one of you know the street that 270 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:49.279 Hillsborough I think it's Hillsboro Avenue where propstitute. She'll do 271 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.200 that on a way of work. Blah blah blah. I 272 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:55.960 does stuff like that. But eventually he picks up two 273 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.559 girls and he transports them to this house where he's 274 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.000 the k taker someplace out in the country, and he 275 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.160 murders both of them. Dump him in ah, what do 276 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.319 you call it? Uh? I don't know. A pond a 277 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:19.319 pond right, and dumps in a pond and uh, it was. Oh, 278 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.759 and what happened was that both of the women were prostitutes. 279 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:28.519 And what happens is oh, must have been about a 280 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.759 couple of years afterwards. I mean, Facebook is amazing, Dan, 281 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.519 sometimes because I started getting what do you call it 282 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:44.000 pms the personal message from from a prostitute who've been 283 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:48.680 working the streets with one of them, and she started 284 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.720 telling me about the woman and basically what she's what 285 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:55.160 she's telling me is she's lucky and she didn't wind 286 00:20:55.240 --> 00:21:00.119 up that way. It was. It was really amazing. You know, 287 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.599 once in a while those things happened, you know, not 288 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:04.799 very often with some you know where somebody talks to 289 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.240 you after the fact, you know, after after the case. 290 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:19.599 But but that was that was very upsetting. And uh, yeah, 291 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.240 that was very upsetting. And but you see, you've also 292 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:28.000 mentioned h a lot of those earlier cases took place 293 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:33.640 in Tampa, Florida, in that area at Hillsboro County, because 294 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.799 that's where Lobster Boy took place. You know, it was 295 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.039 pretty far south in the county. But it's basically what 296 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:46.920 happened was I formed a relationship with with the you know, 297 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.400 with the police officers, and also with the public information officers, 298 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.000 so I'd ask them to let me know if they 299 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:55.240 had any interesting cases, and they would. 300 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.400 Talk about interesting case is when Satan wore across. This 301 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:07.559 is nineteen eighty in Toledo, Ohio and again on one 302 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.920 of the holiest days of the church calendar. You write 303 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:13.200 the body of an none was discovered in the sacristy 304 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.519 of a hospital chapel. Seventy one year old sister Margaret 305 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.880 Anne been strangled and stabbed. And here it goes her 306 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.079 corpse arranged in a shameful and stomach churning to say 307 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:31.839 the least pose. Police had a suspect, Father Gerald Robinson, 308 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.960 tell us how what happens here? And then what happens 309 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.839 twenty three years later in this incredible story, Well. 310 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:48.480 What happens is what happens is that Robinson is interrogated originally, 311 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:55.880 but the mon senior comes in and gets him out. 312 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:02.039 You know, the church used its influence uh uh uh 313 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:04.839 uh and got him out. And then they moved him 314 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:12.480 around from parish to parish. And funny thing on that 315 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:18.559 case is, as I got into it, uh, there was 316 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:25.559 a cop, former cop who had been at the crime 317 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:32.519 scene and he uh, he had been I don't, I 318 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.319 guess blacklist. He had been blacklisted by the department because 319 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.240 he didn't go with their what do you know, their 320 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:43.359 take on the thing, right, so you know, and so 321 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:49.799 and and again oh oh oh oh, I forgot oh 322 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:54.880 one more thing is Colombo used to say, uh, I uh, 323 00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:05.640 this is the first time I ever spoke to an exorcist. Wow, Dan, 324 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.319 I got on the phone with an exorcist, see, and 325 00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:16.640 you know, because they called in an exorcist and to 326 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.559 help them figure out what was going on because it 327 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:25.839 was a satanic inspired crime. And then I and so 328 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.119 I got to talk to the exorcist. You know, that 329 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.440 was pretty That was pretty interesting. 330 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:40.400 Yes, no kidding. What was interesting too, is it twenty 331 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.079 three years later. Really what we had and what you 332 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.680 write about I thought was very interesting was that it 333 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.200 was a different time and you know, it's twenty three 334 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:54.200 years later, but the societal shift in attitude was really 335 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:59.799 what facilitated Robinson being convicted because it was a different, 336 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.039 completely different time. I you say, the church didn't have 337 00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:07.160 the power that it had with the exposing of all 338 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:09.400 the scandals over the years in that interim. 339 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.680 Oh yeah, oh yeah, And that was what was so 340 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:20.000 interesting about it and fact, Oh yeah, I just Robinson 341 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:25.240 died in jail a couple of years ago. Somebody contacted 342 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.480 me to let me know about it. 343 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.480 Interesting. You wrote a book called There But for the 344 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.279 Grace of God. Well, it's just what that is? Briefly, 345 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.640 what do you mean by there but for the Grace 346 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:46.200 of God? When you include well. 347 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:54.480 It's based on that old expression, oh God, help come 348 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:57.920 me out here. There. Well, There but for the Grace 349 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.720 of God is about Oh boy, this is the most 350 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:06.920 emotional book I ever did. No questions, Oh yeah, I 351 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:12.240 mean it. It's this was a book. I interviewed survivors 352 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:21.279 of septs and it was it was, it was. It 353 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:26.920 was a real education exact. One of the survivors, who 354 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.960 I'm not going to mention by name, but found a 355 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:36.359 way to make money off of it. But I got 356 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:41.880 to say that, uh what was so how? Oh man, 357 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:47.319 I'll never forget this. I met the woman who who 358 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.000 was in the uh, the woman who put ted Bundy 359 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:58.880 in the chair. It was when Bundy went into the 360 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:06.559 so already how in Florida and Central Florida, And this 361 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:14.359 woman had come in after Bundy had killed two of 362 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:22.319 her sorority sisters upstairs, and she came into the the 363 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:25.039 I was gonna say the ante room, but it would 364 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:31.000 be the living room. And she said to me she 365 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:37.839 could feel her grandfather's arm on her, stopping her from 366 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:42.880 going further into the room, because if she'd gone further 367 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.200 into the room, she would have been close to Bundy 368 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.039 and he bya killed her. But she was able to 369 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:53.519 see him and at the stairs in a circle of light, 370 00:27:53.880 --> 00:28:01.480 pool of light. Whatever. And what happened was she she 371 00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:05.160 later testified against him and put him in the electric chair. 372 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:10.680 But I gotta tell you the emotion. I have never 373 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:17.359 ever been that close to that kind of evil. I mean, 374 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:20.920 you know, I don't mean to get you know, mystical 375 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.079 or anything, but I just have to tell you that 376 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:31.359 the vibe was just I could feel the Bundee vibes 377 00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.319 and I'm just talking to this woman, you know, luckily, 378 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.960 but again lially she's vibed and had a life and 379 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:43.920 so forth and so on. That was just very very emotional. 380 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.960 Tell us how you came to be involved and write 381 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:54.640 Deadly Angel Crying. That occurred in Wassilla, Alaska, a little 382 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:58.920 place about forty two hundred people. She was an exotic 383 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:04.359 dancer at this bush company in nearby Anchorage. Tell us 384 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:05.880 a little bit about what you remember about this. 385 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.119 Well, the thing I gotta tell you about that is 386 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:15.200 that the woman, Okay, this is about an exotic dancer 387 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:20.200 who allegedly lures one of the one of the guys 388 00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:24.240 she's living with out into the country in murdersm The 389 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:31.680 thing is, later on this became the first closed case 390 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.920 that the closed case squad in that area of and 391 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:43.000 the state police handled. Okay, But she actually was later 392 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:48.119 found her conviction was overturned by the what you called, 393 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:52.720 you know, the appeals court. So as far as the 394 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:59.079 you know, of course of concern, she's not guilty. 395 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.240 There was no follow up to this. I mean normally 396 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.160 even Pinnacle had a sort of a rule, didn't they 397 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.519 didn't they have if this is a Pinnacle release, didn't 398 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:13.480 they have a rule to wait till those appeals were exhausted. 399 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.920 What was it that was the new evidence brought up later? 400 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:18.680 Was it was circumstances. 401 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:24.319