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It allows me to basically put out an episode every

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going to accelerate. I think sometimes you see that I'm

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Head on over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com,

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forward slash support and do it there. Thank you. I

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want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. Carl

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Dolla is back. More Spanish civil War on deck? What's

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going on?

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Speaker 2: Man doing well, happy Martin Loofer King Day Junior and

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Inauguration Day, Spicy Day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting so far. But nothing ever happens, nothing,

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nothing ever happens. Last time we recorded. I just realized

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this this morning. Is we recorded that the day after

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the election. So we're on a We're on a pattern, man,

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We're on some kind of schedule here. So all right,

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So I think last time we talked, I mentioned what

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the hell is his name for?

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Speaker 2: Nellie? Nellie?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and well you were like, okay, well let's put

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something together. And so you are here to talk about

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the other guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, one thing that people have pointed

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out is that I always just when I speak about

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the Spanish Civil War, to fite my knowledge on all

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the various groups and subgroups, I always just call them libtards.

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And I do that deliberately. And why do I do

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that deliberately Because I am very well versed in these people.

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I've been you know, around their ideas for a long time.

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I'm tired of them and I want to dismiss them. However,

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it's useful to explore what they actually believed. But I'm also,

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you know, not going to enshrine them with too much legitimacy,

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although in fairness, I will say that there are there

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are good critiques that you will find from the left,

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Like one of the things Peepe, that keeps coming up

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when when you and Thomas talk, because you guys are

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both actually knowledgeable about the subjects that you talk about.

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You're not doing the you know, the James Lindsay of

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the world. You know, you're woke because as you know,

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because Mark said something ever so slightly similar, or we're

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going to trick everyone because we're gonna, you know, quote

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Hegel and Marx was a Hegelian and therefore you're a communist.

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If you publish something it's it's really retarded. And and

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we don't want to be retards. We want to be

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very well educated in reality, and we don't want people

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to be to be conned by the fake framing of

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whether it's a leftist position or it's a you know,

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to repeat ourselves, a mainstream you know, conservative or you know,

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really liberal psyop operation. So we want to know what

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kind of libtards the various apostles of atheistic materialism were

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in Spain. When we talked about the Spanish Civil War,

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So this scene here is CNTFAI. You can tell by

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the red and black, the classic anarchist colors. This is

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cnt FAI in Barcelona. Right after there they suppressed the

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military rising and they began their their little revolution. You'll

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notice the long eighteen ninety three pattern Spanish mousers and

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not the later slightly shorter nineteen sixteen carbines, which are

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great rifles, by the way. So I'm going to proceed

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and we're going to learn a little bit about the

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ideological roots and some of the standout folks in Spain.

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Why did Spain? Why was Spain so heavily anarchist compared

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to other parts of the world when they had these

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various uprisings. What are some of the tensions between the

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anarchist and marx positions, plus the kind of mainstream liberal groups.

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And we're also going to address some of the kind

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of foundational concepts that you need to understand when you're

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looking at leftist critiques and factionalism. What do these things

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actually mean. I will continue to dismiss them as libtards,

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but I also want to prove here that I know

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what I'm talking about, and I highly encourage everyone else

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to to examine you know, what your enemies say. So

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I'm really leaning into two primary sources here in this

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little talk. If you want to understand like the top

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level ideas that are coming from here. These are two

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great books. They're both available in English. I just grabbed

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the Spanish version Spanish edition title for the second book,

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The Spanish Anarchist by Murray Buukchin has the bulk of

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what you need here. There's other material that I sourced

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for this, especially some of the more niche elements of

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the conversation that we'll get into well.

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Speaker 1: And one of the good things about reading bookchen is

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is that he's sympathetic.

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Speaker 2: He is, and he also if you're looking at his

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name and you're saying, hey, I noticed something, you were

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accurately identifying something. But he's sympathetic.

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Speaker 1: Oh, as someone who came out of you know, libertarianism,

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monarcal capitalism, and a studied agorism, I know exactly who

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Murray Buckchin is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a very intelligent guy. There's a really interesting

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thing too it Since you're educated on this subject as well,

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you'll notice that there was a huge lull in anarchist

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orient and material until really the very end of the sixties,

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or really it took off in the early seventies when

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there was kind of a revitalization. And there's a bunch

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of arguments behind why this pattern happened, but frankly, a

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lot of it was during the Cold War the left

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either went anti communist leftist or Marxist slash Marxist Leninist

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Maoist right. And then in the kind of post sixties,

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and I suspect a lot of it has to do

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with kind of nineteen sixty eight, you know, post nineteen

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sixty eight, there was a big shift into people exploring anarchism,

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and a bunch of it also was kind of the

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evolution of what we know about the counterculture in the

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sixties and seventies that where there's a fair bit of that.

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But there was a real serious academic interest in anarchism

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and historical anarchism at this time and re examining things

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not just through the lens of the you know, communism

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versus capitalism discussion. I don't know if you have anything

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to add there, no, no, I'll keep going great. So

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one of the neat things about the anarchist is that

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they actually follow through with with what they believe. And

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what you'll find is that if there's an anarchist book

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that's in English or even other languages, you'll probably be

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able to find it online for free because they're giving

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it away, and if you're buying it, it's because you're

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paying to print it. I raise my hand and acknowledge

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that I was a person who used to go to

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an anarchist bookstore when I was an edgy teen and

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I was exploring these things. And what I would say

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is anarchist library, libcom and of course archive dot org

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have a lot of great material. The Commune, libertarian, communist

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and anarchist websites have tons of great material on the

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topic of the Spanish the Spanish Civil War, and just

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the general topics of anarchism, communism, etc. And all the debates.

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You can find all the stuff online for free. Don't

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pay money for it, just go out there and read it.

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There's a lot of great material. Marx is actually extremely

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interesting and he has some very good critiques, and we're

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going to talk a little bit about that. Here. I'll

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be talking about other books that you guys can check out,

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or just topics. To start with The Spanish Labyrinth by

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Gerald Brennan is another book that is a sympathetic and

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very interesting book about the environment of Spain before the war,

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especially like the nineteenth century, because really all of all

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of these things, when you're talking about these these movements,

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you have to understand, you know, the causes and conditions,

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as I always point out, and they both do a

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really good good job of exploring that Bookchin really leans

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into one of the main narratives of the UH. You know,

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when you look at how did Spain develop this super

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deep rooted anarchist anarchist core, and that legend is around

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what we'll call Finelle's mission. So in October eighteen sixty eight,

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a tall, heavily bearded Italian revolutionary arrived in Barcelona by train.

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Giuseppe Finelli was a We'll look a little more into

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who he was in just a moment, but all you

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need to know is that he was financed and directed

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by Mikhail Bakunin, who was I'm going to pronounce it

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that way. I know I'm probably butchering it, but he

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was the stand out representative of the anarchist faction in

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the International Workingmen's Association, which was also known as the

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First International. So Finelli made contact with Spanish radicals that

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were known to this faction. Even though he did not

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speak Spanish, he spoke French and Italian, and from this

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contact arose the largest and most consequential anarchist movement in history.

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So eighteen sixty eight is a very important year. There's

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a reason that this happened in eighteen sixty eight. To date,

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Spain and Portugal were seen as the most isolated and

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least contacted parts of Europe in the nineteenth century. Karl

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Marx himself stated there's perhaps no country except Turkey so

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little known to and so falsely judged by Europe as Spain.

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Now why eighteen sixty eight, So let's look at a

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super quick timeline as to what happens to create this

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environment where the prominent anarchists in the world are understanding

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that they need to reach out to Spain. So French

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Revolution happens in seventeen eighty nine. France is right next

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to Spain. Right. So while this is a huge deal

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in world history and American history because of our alliance

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with France, as it coincides with our own warfare independence

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in the early years of you know, our young nation.

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This really set a lot of things off because the

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Peninsular War, the war in Spain and Portugal that happened

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eighteen seven to eighteen fourteen, was really critical in terms

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of establishing the base for the kind of foment that

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was taking place in eighteen sixty eight. There was a

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fair bit of assistance by the liberalizing forces in Madrid,

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like the bureaucrats and the we may say petite bourgeois

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or bourgeois elements in the government who were Frenchified as

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one of the terms that they would use. They followed

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French you know, styles and fashions and you know, ideology, everything,

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and they wanted to liberalize Spain. There was an element

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of this at play when they essentially placed a new

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king in the throne, creating a war that involved the

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Spanish and the French and the British to retake the

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country of Spain from French dominion. Because Napoleon's brother was

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made king. There was a constitution that was instituted in

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eighteen twelve with liberalizing elements that essentially got tossed out

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when there was a restoration with Spanish victory, but it

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still left an imprint that was always referred back to

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for the rest of the century. The First Carlist War

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took place in eighteen thirty three to eighteen forty and

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this is again traditionalists fighting against the central force, the

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central government's liberals. So the fueros, which is the old

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rights and privileges, particularly relevant in the northern parts of

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the country and home rule were abolished tactically where it

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would be least disruptive and would help the central government

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the most through the rest of the century. So first

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in Navarre via the Compromise Act of eighteen forty one,

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after the Carlists were defeated. So the idea was, you know,

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this is one of those things that you and I

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have talked about, Pete. There's the traditional Spanish rights to

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kind of self government in their own provinces and districts,

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but this allows rebellion against the central government. And so

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this was abolished in Navarre, which was again that one

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of the Carlist homelands, although they were also huge in

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Basque country also and a fair bit in Catalonia. So

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it was the second Carlist War eighteen forty six to

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eighteen forty nine because they were not happy with this arrangement.

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They wanted, you know, a full restoration of their rights

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as well as to defend against the early liberalizing influences

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from the government. This coincides with Europe's revolutions of eighteen

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forty eight, which really change everything in terms of propagating

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all of these liberalizing ideas around the world, especially in

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the West. And also another thing that happens is when

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these revolutions fail all around the world, whether it's Germany,

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whether it's France. And when I say Germany, you know

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what I mean, it's in the German principalities and in

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various areas, So all these people have to go to

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different areas to hide out, and a bunch end up

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in Spain and other parts in the world.

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Speaker 1: And here and here, I mean they fought, they came here,

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they became mercenaries in a lot of places.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they fought this.

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Speaker 1: They fought in our Civil war.

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Speaker 2: I have. It's funny. I had a bunch of German

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ancestors come here in the eighteen forties, and at one

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point I was like, I got to look at these

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dates again because I'm a little nervous, and I was

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happy to see eighteen forty one. In eighteen forty two,

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I was like a few because it's certainly it certainly

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wouldn't comport what I know of them, you know, in

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the businesses that they were in, and they were just

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they wanted to get away from that kind of stuff obviously,

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but they weren't revolutionaries themselves. Few wipe the brow. But yeah,

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so it was it was a huge spread of all

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these ideas that were associated with that. We'll talk about

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what some of those ideas are shortly. Again, this is

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a super high level survey, so really another critical foundational element,

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especially coming after the revolutions of eighteen forty eight. I'm

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talking in extreme shorthand here. I definitely encourage people to

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read more material about this. Check out Pete and Thomas's

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shows about Marx. You'll get a lot of information about that.

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This is total shorthand. The First International, which is the

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International Workingman's Association, is founded in eighteen sixty four. And

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what this is is a group of you know, international radicals,

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but but mostly from just a couple of countries in

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Europe who start saying we need to not only network internationally,

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but we need to start establishing ties with one another

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to actually do things, and we need to kind of

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determine what our ideology is going to be and immediately

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different factions start forming. We'll talk about that shortly. One

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of the factions here reaches out to Spain because in

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eighteen sixty eight, Queen Isabelle the Second was overthrown in

266
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what is described as the Glorious Revolution, which ushers in

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the Seseno Democratico, which is a democratic or revolutionary depending

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on who you talk to, six year period. So the

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Saseno Democratico was a huge shift in Spain because it

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was the very first time that a system was developed

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which lasted for the next several decades. That was really

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critical in forming kind of the political nullification of a

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lot of the revolutionary energy, while also definitely moving the

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needle in terms of liberalizing influences through the formal government.

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It was a very open period with the least formal

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repression of ideas and organizations, political organizations, radical organizations in

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this initial period. Now, what happened was the conservative and

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liberal parties worked out a system that the largest establishment

279
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parties developed what they called the peaceful turn alterno pacifico.

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It was informal, but it was agreed upon where they

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would determine in advance the results of a general election

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so when you have a when you have a kind

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of constitutional monarchy, you have the monarchy, which is the

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symbol of order and continuity, but then you have the quartes,

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which is where the various political parties do their business

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and actually run the government. And they worked out the

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system where they would just alternate being in power with

288
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one another. So this had a again, like I said,

289
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a kind of deradicalizing effect where it pushes the extremes

290
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to the edges. And really fundamentally, what it would look

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like is if you go to let's say any site

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or Wikipedia and you look at who the prime minister

293
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of Spain was, you'll notice there were just a handful

294
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of generals and politicians that were just switching off. And

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there were several people who were prime minister five or

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six times in this period, going all the way into

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the twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: So can I ask you a question about the cartoon

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that's up there. Yes, the guy up top has interesting physiognomy.

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Speaker 2: I honestly, I'm not one hundred percent sure. I can't

301
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,799
remember who he was, but he was essentially a he

302
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was a little worm. I don't think he has that

303
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physiognomy because I believe that he was a genuinely well,

304
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now that I think of it, him being an actual

305
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Spanish politician wouldn't necessarily do anything, but it was a

306
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here's our solution and more and mora. You know, these

307
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are these are representatives of liberals and conservatives switching off

308
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between each other, but also speaking from you know, saying

309
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the exact same thing and running the system and that

310
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this is the big solution by mister political operator. But

311
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I'll check that out. That's that is an interesting observation.

312
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So into this environment comes Giuseeppe Finelli. He was a

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Neapolitan Italian Republican. So remember Italy was not unified until

314
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later in the nineteenth century, so he was from Napoli

315
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and he was a veteran of the eighteen forty eight

316
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Revolution in Italy. He was a veteran of Garibaldi's Sicilian

317
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campaign of eighteen sixty. Remember Garibaldi was seen as a

318
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great unifier of the nation of Italy. Finelli was a

319
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member of an organization called Young Italy, which was one

320
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of the primary Italian nationalist organizations. That Finelli was a

321
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:36,200
hancho of. Mazzini is another name that you will recognize

322
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,119
associated with Young Italy. If you ever dive into it,

323
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,279
it's really interesting because again they're unifying the country, but

324
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there's all these various political channels. So he also participated

325
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,200
in a Polish uprising in eighteen sixty three, just as

326
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a radical revolutionary. And again who was Poland fighting against.

327
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:08,039
Consider the Third Italian War of Independence against Austria in

328
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:12,920
eighteen sixty six. So remember Italy and Austria, Austria Hungarian Empire.

329
00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,680
If you look at anything in the eighteenth and nineteenth century,

330
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you'll see that a lot of Italy was under the

331
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boot of the Austrians, and they had a lot of

332
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influence through the rest of the peninsula because of that,

333
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,000
a lot of commercial sway and finances.

334
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Speaker 1: I'm far from an expert. I need to stop talking

335
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about it right now because I'll start saying dumb things

336
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right away.

337
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Speaker 2: But that's where a lot of the struggle was in Italy,

338
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and Finelli was a veteran of this, and again he

339
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had been a revolutionary for several decades at this point

340
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in time. He was elected to Italian Parliament in November

341
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:54,119
eighteen sixty five. And this is kind of it's going

342
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,799
to sound quaint now, but as an Italian parliamentarian. He

343
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could travel by train for free in multiple nations, not

344
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just Italy, so he could travel all over Italy for free.

345
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There were some there was some arrangement where he could

346
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go through France essentially for free, and so he became.

347
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:25,240
This gave him a huge leg up for spreading the word.

348
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He tied in with Bakunin at some point, meeting him

349
00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:39,160
in a summit in Italy in the eighteen sixties and

350
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possibly having corresponded with him for a while before that,

351
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because again here's this republican, you know, political leader who's

352
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fighting against the kind of regressive elements you know in

353
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his thinking in Italy and especially against the Austrians to

354
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,880
try to free his country, and radicalizing continuously through this

355
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,599
process and ideas we're getting more and more and more

356
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,839
radical in Europe at the time. So he ties in

357
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:22,880
with Bacunan through the iw A International Workingmen's Association and

358
00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:30,839
is charged with prosthalizing their libertarian vision in Spain. So

359
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,799
again he spoke only French and Italian. But the all this,

360
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:42,400
the records and testimonies of Spanish anarchists who met him

361
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,480
said that you know, they were able to figure out

362
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:52,119
through his passion like almost like an electric rod. The

363
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:55,680
the spirit of what he was saying was communicating with them.

364
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Speaker 1: But what would you how would you definearian here, because

365
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:05,920
you know, libertarian nowadays pretty much means globalist, free market globalist.

366
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. So libertarian

367
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:20,640
originally meant essentially anarchists anarchism with personal freedom versus collective anarchism,

368
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especially as it relates to people voluntarily organizing themselves as

369
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:35,319
well as having a little more there's more of an

370
00:29:35,359 --> 00:29:42,240
allowance for personal property to a certain degree. And we'll

371
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,279
get in we'll get into where some of these arguments

372
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:49,960
were coming from. But that was the basic, the basic idea.

373
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,240
It's not centralized, it's not based on you know, a

374
00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:02,319
temporary state as Marx advocated, and it's not there's a

375
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:04,440
lot of arguments when it comes down to it with

376
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,839
anarchists about which is why there's so many kind of

377
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,240
versions of them. And we'll talk a little bit about

378
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:15,079
where those ideas come from, but broadly, that's that's the

379
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,160
basic idea, is that it's it's it springs forth from

380
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,640
an individual person. It isn't it isn't theoretical, it isn't philosophical,

381
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:30,160
it isn't historical and scientific. It's an individual spirit longing

382
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,319
to be free.

383
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: Gotcha.

384
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: So this is a really critical, you know, point to make,

385
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,359
which is that the International Workingmen's Association, which again established

386
00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:48,720
in eighteen sixty four and ended, depending on you know,

387
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,960
de facto and de jure eighteen seventy two or eighteen

388
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,480
seventy six, and so again this is a post eighteen

389
00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:02,079
forty eight international Congress of the broad left, broad coalition

390
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:11,920
of mutualists, anarchists, socialists, secularists, republicans and various radical leftists.

391
00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:16,680
So founded twenty eight September eighteen sixty four in London

392
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,960
by an international group which was largely British because it

393
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:28,519
was in London, but there were French, a big French faction, Irish, Polish,

394
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:33,559
Italian and German delegates, and one of those delegates from

395
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:41,160
Germany was then obscure journalist Emmigrey Karl Marx. He was

396
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:48,160
very obscure in eighteen sixty four, he volunteered to draft

397
00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:53,079
documents and help put together the formal plan. And this

398
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:59,559
is really important because he became automatically extremely influential. Everyone

399
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:04,440
was like, oh, he's he's excited to put together, you know,

400
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:08,640
all the boring details that other people, other people wanted

401
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,359
to talk to each other about, like abstractions, and Karl

402
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,759
Marx says, I'll put together the formal program, which gives

403
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:20,240
him a huge leg up. So the first thing he

404
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,960
drafted was the address and the provisional rules of the

405
00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:32,440
International working Men's Association. So they developed parameters out of

406
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:38,000
the gate initially for trade unions and defined what we

407
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:44,119
see as like progressive government policy on education and labor regulations.

408
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:49,480
So there was a pragmatic element of what they were doing,

409
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:56,519
and then there was like a more philosophical considerations taking place,

410
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,480
plus an awful lot of politics taking place internally, like

411
00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:03,559
how would they relate to the rest of the world.

412
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:12,759
So there was a split almost immediately. The fractures started showing,

413
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:16,839
but it wasn't a formal split between the statists, which

414
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,839
was essentially the Marxists who believed in a working with

415
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,200
the state as well as you know, post revolution, there

416
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,279
being an element of a state before they achieve you know,

417
00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:34,559
a utopian anarchist scheme, and the anarchists who are like,

418
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,039
we have to be principled and we're only going to

419
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:41,519
fight for what we want, which is the annihilation of

420
00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:45,160
the state and no replacement of the state with another state.

421
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,240
So that formal split really happened in eighteen seventy and

422
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,519
then there was a foal schism by eighteen seventy two.

423
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:02,319
The symbol at right is the Spanish anarchist leaning chapter

424
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:08,039
of the International Workingmen's Association, which they called the Spanish

425
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,679
Regional Federation of the IWA. Its initials were fre ai T.

426
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:23,280
The very first congress in Spain was in Barcelona, again

427
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:30,840
with that nucleus of people who had engaged with Finelle,

428
00:34:31,039 --> 00:34:37,719
and so going into this IWA, the Spanish representatives of

429
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:42,960
with the IWA, their formal people were almost entirely anarchists

430
00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:49,159
at this point when Finelle went around the country and

431
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:54,480
some others went around the country as well, but their

432
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:01,679
anarchist message really resonated with real radical and again remember

433
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:07,920
this is a period where the more state oriented and progressive,

434
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:16,159
you know, slow evolution type liberals and socialists are seeing

435
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,280
working in that system as being the way that they're

436
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,239
going to get what they want, whereas the IWA is

437
00:35:23,679 --> 00:35:31,199
outside the system, and the anarchists are the biggest faction

438
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,599
by far in Spain, So how quickly did they grow again?

439
00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:43,360
Eighteen sixty nine, eighteen seventy there's this formal organization and

440
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,679
then by eighteen seventy three there were twenty nine thousand

441
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:53,320
formal dues paying members in Spain. There were never more

442
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,039
than two hundred members of this organization in Madrid, which

443
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:03,239
is the seat of government of Spain. So h there

444
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,880
were anarchist factions in Madrid, but Madrid was primarily non

445
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,119
anarchist in in terms of what the program was for

446
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,119
how people were seeing the future. This is also considered

447
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:28,440
this Spanish group that's associated with i w A is

448
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,679
considered the predecessor to the to the CNT, which is

449
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:41,880
the largest anarchist organization and uh political party and labor

450
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:52,239
union in Spanish history. So you've got AIDS AKA, the

451
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,079
International Alliance of Social Socialist Democracy. So we were talking

452
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:02,639
about Finelle right and how influential he was and how

453
00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:09,519
much his message resonated with the Spanish Finelli was just

454
00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:13,920
a member of an eighteen man nucleus of anarchists that

455
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:22,559
were a faction within the IWA headed by Bakunin, and

456
00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:30,400
they sent many, many representatives to Spain. Because of the

457
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,280
revolutionary Foemen taking place there, and because they wanted to

458
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,960
head off the Marxist tendency within the IWA at the past.

459
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,000
So it was not only to get buy in in Spain,

460
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,840
but it was also to recruit formally people in Spain

461
00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:54,840
who would want to engage with the IWA as well

462
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,679
as they knew with contacts that they had, you know,

463
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,159
through these established networks that have been developing, especially since

464
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:08,960
eighteen forty eight between Spain and France in particular, but

465
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:17,719
just the general international socialist and leftist bent as it

466
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,679
was maturing, and so this was their opportunity. So they

467
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,599
actually sent quite a few people into Spain. And this

468
00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:34,480
is a photograph here probably taken in Madrid with Giuseppe

469
00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:43,159
Finelle right here Fernando Garrido, Aristide rey Eleri Recluse and

470
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,159
Giuseppe Finelli, like I said, and then Jose Maria Oorense.

471
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:54,920
So these are a couple of Spanish representatives who become

472
00:38:55,079 --> 00:39:02,719
very important to this organization and the Spanish the Spanish

473
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:09,159
group associated with the iw A. So there were among

474
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,519
the travelers there were several oops, sorry, there were several

475
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:25,519
Italians and a Russian Leon Meshnikov, and Elias. Elias Recluse

476
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,360
was a Frenchman, so it's a very interesting group of people.

477
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,440
But they Recluse understood some Spanish. He'd been in contact

478
00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:42,280
with some Iberian dissidents for some time, and this is

479
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,880
really interesting when you look at some of the the records.

480
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,719
Recluse wrote a history of their trip at the time,

481
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:58,360
which I believe is not available in English. I wasn't

482
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,800
able to find a copy of it. I've seen translations

483
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:05,719
of it. I think it's only in French in Spanish,

484
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,760
although I could be conflating it with something else. But

485
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,719
it's very interesting because they talk about these other folks,

486
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,320
whereas most of what you hear when you read about

487
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:22,320
this trip is just about Finelle's mission. So as Finelle

488
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,760
was working with this core group of people in Barcelona

489
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,719
and Madrid and a few other places, these other guys

490
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,880
were spreading all over Spain and they were even participating

491
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,079
in some of the actual uprisings that were taking place,

492
00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:41,320
particularly in the south of the country around Andaluthia. So

493
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:45,880
Recluse had been a member of the International Revolutionary Brotherhood,

494
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,840
which was a you know, this kind of foundational group

495
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:56,719
that Baqunan was associated with since eighteen sixty five. So

496
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,440
his book is called Recluse Impression of a Trip through Spain,

497
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,559
and so he was the one who identified these other

498
00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:09,800
foreign radicals and revolutionaries that were part of this conversation.

499
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,960
And it's interesting because apparently hardcore Spanish anarchists get annoyed

500
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:22,119
by the focus on Finelle. It could be just you know,

501
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,800
you know what these spurks are, like, I know more

502
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,239
than you do, so they like to get passionate about it.

503
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,079
So I thought i'd share that. So now let's talk

504
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:33,320
a little bit about the history of the internationals, because

505
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:39,119
when when we talk about the internationals, they're really really

506
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:45,320
important in Marxism and anarchism, and this will kind of

507
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,840
help with the continuity of you know, we're talking about

508
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,599
the nineteenth century, but a lot of it is because

509
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:56,280
of the results that end up later on in history

510
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,679
in the twentieth century. So the first Internation National was

511
00:42:02,039 --> 00:42:05,519
kind of the label given to the International Workingmen's Association,

512
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,000
as I pointed out, created eighteen sixty four. In eighteen

513
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:13,239
seventy two, it really split formally into competing anarchists and

514
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:20,280
like state socialist internationals, and then it was essentially dissolved

515
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:26,960
because of that faction factional split eighteen eighty nine was

516
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,480
an attempt to get it back together again. The Second

517
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:35,840
International saw the anarchists rematerialize, as some people were trying

518
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,000
to reconcile these groups with one another for various reasons,

519
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,079
but the infighting was such that the anarchists were officially

520
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:51,400
excluded in the eighteen ninety three Zurich Congress. That eighteen

521
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:57,840
ninety six London Congress saw anarchists such as Erico Mala Testa,

522
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,519
who's a name that if you're familiar with anarchs history,

523
00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:07,679
will sound familiar. He challenged their expulsion at the London Congress,

524
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,079
which was a failure, and so essentially at this point

525
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,960
the Marxists were essentially running the show, although though there

526
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,280
were still non Marxist state socialist groups still participating in

527
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,159
the Second or International, nationalist sentiments which arose during World

528
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:35,239
War One essentially saw the end of the Second International,

529
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:43,719
and then nineteen nineteen the Communist International was spun up again.

530
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,440
This one was expressly Marxist, and not only that, but

531
00:43:48,599 --> 00:43:51,559
was an organ of the Soviet Union proper. So it

532
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:56,880
was more like Marxist Leninist, which is a something that

533
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,840
I won't spend a ton of time on. But I

534
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,679
know that you and you and Thomas have talked about it.

535
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:07,800
So that's another Again, listen to those shows, folks, So

536
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:15,519
you know it sounds petty, but it's worth talking about

537
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:17,480
the kinds of things that were going on in the

538
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:22,719
IWA Congresses before the Spanish mission in eighteen sixty eight,

539
00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:28,840
eighteen sixty nine. So the Geneva Congress of eighteen sixty

540
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,679
six saw something that we will all be familiar with,

541
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,679
which was the formal announcement that one of their primary

542
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,880
goals would be to establish a universal eight hour workday,

543
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,559
which they were very successful at. This idea really came

544
00:44:45,679 --> 00:44:49,320
through the IWA, so when you see it around the world,

545
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,440
you know that's a thing that they accomplished. I'm not

546
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,679
gonna do the James Lindsay thing here. I think that

547
00:44:55,679 --> 00:45:01,840
that's a perfectly reasonable expectation. As a fan of the

548
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,360
bundle of sticks approach with the AXD sticking out of

549
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,320
the top, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take, you know,

550
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,840
these kinds of ideas and you know, adopt them in

551
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:21,079
a pro social fashion. Take that. Vivek So then in

552
00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:26,079
eighteen sixty seven and Lassan which is in Switzerland, very

553
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:31,199
pretty area. In French speaking Switzerland, there was the goal

554
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:38,480
of a free, compulsory secular education, which again was largely

555
00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:45,679
based on the Prussian model, but we saw this spread

556
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,960
around the world. Consider at the time, like in Spain,

557
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:53,679
the free education that was available was from the church.

558
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,119
It was not compulsory either, so people could just bail whenever,

559
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:08,559
and was again instituted specifically explicitly as a secular compulsory

560
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:12,280
state run thing, because that would put the libtards in charge,

561
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,480
right like, obviously you educate the people, you you know,

562
00:46:16,559 --> 00:46:20,800
you control their ideas total totally in line with a

563
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,159
Marxist position and effort. But there were plenty of other

564
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:28,440
people that agreed with it, including the United States government.

565
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,119
And then another one that's kind of interesting. The very

566
00:46:33,159 --> 00:46:39,039
first time that they made a state stated a goal

567
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:43,800
that was for collective ownership of anything, was a state

568
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:48,119
slash collective ownership of transportation companies. That was the first

569
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:53,559
formal support for the principle of collective ownership. So in

570
00:46:53,679 --> 00:47:00,559
eighteen sixty eight in Brussels cerial excuse me, serious conflicts

571
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:05,159
arose regarding methods and goals, and so when you look

572
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:09,880
at all the different versions of socialism and anarchism and communism.

573
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:16,519
It's all about like methods and goals. And so there

574
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:22,840
was a statement for global solidarity and a formal anti

575
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,079
war stance. Again and this arose in the context of

576
00:47:26,079 --> 00:47:29,920
depending conflict between France and Germany. It's eighteen sixty eight, right,

577
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:36,760
So what kind of debates took place. So the formal

578
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:43,719
statement about this anti war stances explicitly, and I quote

579
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,079
the Congress of the International Workingmen's Association assembled at Brussels,

580
00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:52,079
records its most emphatic protest against war. It invites all

581
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:56,039
the sections of the Association in their respective countries, and

582
00:47:56,119 --> 00:48:00,880
also all working class societies and all workers groups of

583
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,639
whatever kind, to take the most vigorous action to prevent

584
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,960
a war between the peoples, which today could not be

585
00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:13,159
considered anything else than a civil war, no more brother wars. Right,

586
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,920
Seeing that since it would be waged between the producers,

587
00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:20,480
it would only be a struggle between brothers and citizens,

588
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,239
the Congress urges the workers to cease work should war

589
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:30,559
break out in their respective countries. So big challenge, right,

590
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:33,719
And this is the first time we see this sentiment

591
00:48:34,199 --> 00:48:37,159
publicly stated in the world. We hear a lot more

592
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:40,119
of it in World War One as really as part

593
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:45,119
of the Second International as well. So what are some

594
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:48,639
of these other debates that start taking place here. It's

595
00:48:48,679 --> 00:48:56,679
really factionalism and the kind of ideological disputes. So Pierre

596
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,920
Joseph Prudona was kind of a founding father of anna

597
00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:05,320
archism and uh and just kind of socialism in leftism

598
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,920
in the in the nineteenth century. He had had this

599
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:18,119
goal of mutual exchange banks, which are you know, it's

600
00:49:18,159 --> 00:49:24,400
a it's a liberalizing concept to free people from the

601
00:49:24,519 --> 00:49:28,360
you know, the ownership of banks by capitalists. But the

602
00:49:28,639 --> 00:49:33,000
Marxists disdained it as they stated that it possessed a

603
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:37,480
commercial spirit and it wasn't sufficiently anti capitalist. Right. The

604
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:41,679
idea was like, by moving away from the current banking

605
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,599
system and having a mutual exchange bank there you could

606
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,239
leverage with labor, you can negotiate with labor and not

607
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,039
just capital. And the Marxists were like, well, that that's

608
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:56,400
negotiating with capitalists instead of just defeating them. So we

609
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:04,000
oppose it. However, rather than this you know, this argument

610
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:06,599
being something that they would stay formally as a goal

611
00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:09,559
or say it wasn't a goal as they essentially said,

612
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,239
we'll talk about it in the next congress because we

613
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,960
we want to resolve this with ourselves. The next one,

614
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:20,039
which is gonna sound really quaint, is about machinery. Right. So,

615
00:50:20,679 --> 00:50:23,679
the the laborers, you know, a lot of them saw

616
00:50:24,079 --> 00:50:28,719
machinery and mechanization is bad because it takes work away

617
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:34,719
from workers. However, it was also seen as necessary to

618
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,400
create the desired material conditions, you know, from the Marxist perspective,

619
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:48,440
particularly that would allow you know, basically, you know, super cheap, easy,

620
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,920
you know, post scarcity life, right, because a lot of

621
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,440
people were thinking, you know, let's not think about how

622
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,280
things are exactly right now, let's think into the future

623
00:50:59,679 --> 00:51:06,039
where we going. Machinery isn't a bad thing if it

624
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:10,320
leads to this world without want. And so there was

625
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,280
a whole argument about, well, machinery is good theoretically because

626
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,000
of this, but it should be in a collective ownership,

627
00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:20,599
et cetera. Again, these none of these were settled, but

628
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,639
we're starting to see these arguments that you will recognize

629
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:27,079
if you if you really know anything about the history

630
00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:33,239
of labor relations and the ideological arguments there. And then finally,

631
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,760
the other argument that really broke out at Brussels was

632
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,400
around ownership of land and agricultural production, because again getting

633
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,559
back to Prudone, they had seen a lot of failures

634
00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:53,639
in France of you know, collectivization and the fact that generally,

635
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,599
you know, tragedy the commons is a real thing. But

636
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,559
then it comes down to it can't be compulsory, so

637
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:07,519
it's volunteer. Is it done individually, is it done collectively?

638
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,000
Et cetera? Who owns the land, who's responsible for it,

639
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:14,920
et cetera. So again maturing these ideas and all these

640
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:21,880
different socialistisms are starting to refine and define themselves at

641
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,239
this point in time. Again right when these guys go

642
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,320
to go to Spain. So I mentioned Pierre Joseph Prudone.

643
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,000
He lived from eighteen oh nine to eighteen sixty five.

644
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:39,039
He's seen as the father of anarchism by a great

645
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:43,079
many people. He was already heavily networked in Spain at

646
00:52:43,079 --> 00:52:46,639
this point during the eighteen sixties.

647
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:49,079
Speaker 1: Is he just because he was a member of Is

648
00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:50,800
that because he was a member of French parliament?

649
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:56,119
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, member of French Parliament. And again remember the

650
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:01,320
liberal bent in Spain was very very frenchified. They were

651
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:07,000
very tied into the French government, so in the Spanish government,

652
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:13,239
among the liberals, this level of thinking was very deeply rooted,

653
00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:19,760
essentially essentially anarchist. Again, these people are in government, but

654
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,360
they're seeing this as a goal, right, which we a

655
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:28,239
lot of times see as like a Marxian type thinking.

656
00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:32,079
But it was, it was all over the place. It's

657
00:53:32,159 --> 00:53:39,639
this a progressive you know, goal that they would get,

658
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,400
you know, however they could get it, whether it was

659
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:48,320
you know, procedurally and slowly or arrived at via revolution,

660
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,719
if the conditions are right for it.

661
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: And I always thought it was. I always thought it

662
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,320
was funny that he you get left right from the

663
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:03,719
French parliament. Yeah, the liberals, the more liberals were on

664
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,719
the left, and Friedrich Bostiat the the current you know,

665
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,519
the current crop of people who call themselves libertarians. They

666
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:16,000
would trace their lineage back to Bastiat and he sat

667
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:19,840
next to Prudon on the same uh, on the same side.

668
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: Exactly, which is uh. That's why sometimes every once in

669
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,000
a while I use intemperate words to talk about libertarians

670
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,280
because but but I will say this, I will say this,

671
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:40,199
I think I think thinking evolves over time, and it

672
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,920
really comes down to who you think your enemies are.

673
00:54:43,519 --> 00:54:45,519
But uh, when I when I look at people and

674
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:49,599
I determine whether they're my enemy or not, I look

675
00:54:49,639 --> 00:54:52,920
at whether they're a friend or an enemy, right, not

676
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,480
not based on what they believe or what you know, whatever,

677
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,039
as much as do they see me as an enemy?

678
00:54:58,599 --> 00:55:03,679
And pro Don was he was a product of his time,

679
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,280
you know, post French Revolution of France. He described the

680
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:14,000
liberty he pursued as the synthesis of community and individualism,

681
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:18,360
which sounds pretty good, right, Like, I think that's the

682
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:25,079
balance that everyone really has to consider when you look

683
00:55:25,119 --> 00:55:28,599
at these things. But he also stated that property is theft.

684
00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:33,360
So what his key works there's what is property? Or

685
00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:36,519
an inquiry into the principle of right and government? Very

686
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:43,239
quaint phrasing for a title. And he also wrote another

687
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:48,360
very influential work called the System of Economic Contradictions or

688
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:54,199
the Philosophy of Poverty. Now his he dealt a lot

689
00:55:54,280 --> 00:56:00,960
with feelings and philosophy and looking at the way things were.

690
00:56:02,599 --> 00:56:08,559
Karl Marx wrote a response he he had been kind

691
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:14,840
of Prudon was very influential in the left, especially you know,

692
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,079
eighteen forty eight, all these times when Marx is coming up,

693
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,440
and Marx is a product of his time. Another thing

694
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,960
that was taking place in the nineteenth century, eighteenth and

695
00:56:29,039 --> 00:56:34,880
nineteenth century is there's kind of a split between science

696
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:43,679
and philosophy, and making your arguments scientific became really important

697
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,679
and Marx. One of the key things to understand about

698
00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,880
Marx is he always felt that his approach was scientific

699
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,199
and not philosophical. And he wrote a response to the

700
00:56:56,199 --> 00:57:03,320
Philosophy of Poverty titled the Poverty of Philosophy, and in

701
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:09,199
that he basically says, there will be all these problems

702
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,920
with anarchism and the Prudonian element, you know, and not

703
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,679
so many words, but I'm just going to put it

704
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:20,800
that way because it's non scientific, and the problem with

705
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,519
philosophy is that it doesn't it isn't as logical, and

706
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:30,039
it doesn't have this, you know, this method being applied

707
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:33,880
to it to prove the accuracy of its statements. There

708
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,480
are these there are these ideas that are felt, but

709
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:40,800
does that make it something that can actually exist in

710
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,000
the real world, which I think is a fair affair critique.

711
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:51,079
Remember that Marx was trained in like a Hegelian model,

712
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:56,159
which again I'm not an expert on Hegel. There's way

713
00:57:56,199 --> 00:57:58,599
better people to think of than Hegel. I have to

714
00:57:58,639 --> 00:58:01,639
sit down and read Hegel. I've I've determined that this

715
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,400
is going to be one of the things that I'm

716
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,320
working on this year, because there's a there's a basic

717
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:14,840
concept that Hegel outline, which is thesis antithesis, and then

718
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:19,159
you establish a synthesis, and that's kind of how ideas

719
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:25,400
and things progress over time. And that's it's it's see,

720
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:31,239
it's a major, a major understatement to say that that's

721
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,400
the way thinking progresses. But at the same time, like

722
00:58:34,639 --> 00:58:37,000
it's it's a fair point, like you have these two

723
00:58:37,039 --> 00:58:40,280
things that are in opposition with one another, and to

724
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,079
make progress you have to come up with a synthesis

725
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,360
of them, kind of like the ideologies that we're talking

726
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:52,360
about here. And so Marx felt that you have to

727
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:58,800
come at these arguments in a very logical, systematic way

728
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,760
to prove them and do proofs of statement, which is

729
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:07,840
what you see in Marx's work, whereas Prudone tends to

730
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:12,599
be more like this is a fact, and therefore rather

731
00:59:12,639 --> 00:59:18,519
than arguing through, you know, the nitpicky elements of it

732
00:59:18,679 --> 00:59:25,719
and worrying about super detailed argumentation, so One of the

733
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:30,360
really interesting things is that there's a really good chance

734
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:37,280
that Marx's early contention with Prudon was rooted in the

735
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:46,639
fact that Marx was very domineering and totalitarian like personally.

736
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,440
It started out in a softer version of that because

737
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:55,000
he was less established, but if he didn't like someone,

738
00:59:56,119 --> 01:00:02,360
he would just he would dismiss them ideologically. And there's

739
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,880
a fellow named Carl Grun who had been in circles

740
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:11,840
that Marx was a part of in Germany. Marx bitterly

741
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:17,599
disliked him, and Carl Grun had been translating Prudin's work

742
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:26,760
into German, and so Groon was kind of an early

743
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,239
He was influential in these in these circles that Marx

744
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,800
traveled in in Germany. And there's a lot of the

745
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:42,840
kind of philosophical arguments that Marx came out of it

746
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:47,760
landed upon, I should say, came out of in disliking

747
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,719
these people and arguing with them about it. So like,

748
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:55,239
for example, Groun argued in a very Prudonian way that

749
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,639
humans are material beings, again not spiritual, not of physical,

750
01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:03,679
but material beings, which is something that Marx would agree with,

751
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,440
who are by nature social They need the community of

752
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,760
others to survive, and so he called for a philosophy

753
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:18,199
of action. He felt that spiritual alienation of humanity took

754
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:26,119
place in religion. So and that's a pretty typical strange

755
01:01:26,679 --> 01:01:32,760
spin that that atheists would make, which is that religion

756
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:38,599
spiritually alienates humanity. You know, Okay, so you do away

757
01:01:38,639 --> 01:01:41,280
with it. What are you going to replace that spiritual

758
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:47,280
element with? Oh, with you know, society coming together? He says. There.

759
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: You know, I always love the argument that, oh, you know,

760
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,679
humans are material, but they're also social. Okay, square that circle?

761
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: Exactly why is that? And and you know, they make

762
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,320
their arguments about it, but it all it does, is it.

763
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,119
It always just proves that they that they chose the side.

764
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:15,360
And remember also in the nineteenth century that atheism was

765
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,719
the side that you would take if you were the

766
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:22,079
scientific cool guy, if you were a cool liberal, right,

767
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:27,000
and so they just automatically say, oh, well, the church

768
01:02:27,119 --> 01:02:30,599
is false. I'll talk a little bit more about some

769
01:02:30,719 --> 01:02:34,199
other arguments there in a second, but that that was

770
01:02:34,239 --> 01:02:36,920
where this this position came from. They would just say, oh,

771
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,679
well it was false and it was man made. Because

772
01:02:40,079 --> 01:02:44,280
you know, atheism is obviously correct, and so they just

773
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,719
frame it based on that and just are dismissive of

774
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:52,000
all spiritual elements whatsoever. And the fact that people have

775
01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:57,559
these experiences, they just dismiss it. So this Groon Fellow

776
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:09,400
saw parallel in complementary development of socialist theory in France

777
01:03:10,679 --> 01:03:17,119
and the revolution of critical philosophy in Germany. Whereas Marx

778
01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:23,119
who's using what is essentially critical philosophy but claims that

779
01:03:23,199 --> 01:03:26,599
it's science, right, and so a lot of it is

780
01:03:26,679 --> 01:03:29,280
just like really nitpicky and silly, and it's and it

781
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,360
really comes down to people arguing with each other for

782
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:41,239
whatever their whatever their reasons are. So this is Marx

783
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:47,039
is coming into this world of these other ideas through

784
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:55,280
the IWA, these really influential French people who are very

785
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,480
powerful in terms of like their standing at the time.

786
01:03:58,519 --> 01:04:02,400
And he's a young guy coming into this, you know,

787
01:04:02,559 --> 01:04:06,119
seeing what's happened in France. And so how does he

788
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:15,800
argue against philosophy because you know, the philosophers are the

789
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,320
ones who are most influential in this group, And he

790
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:26,639
says philosophy gives undue priority to ideology over material substructure.

791
01:04:28,199 --> 01:04:32,079
I think there's something fair there, but at the same time,

792
01:04:32,159 --> 01:04:35,400
this is just a route between the two because he's

793
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:40,360
talking about like you have to be really scientific, even

794
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,400
if what he's really doing is just advocating his own

795
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,079
philosophy and claiming its scientific and not philosophical. So I

796
01:04:47,159 --> 01:04:50,400
apologize for that long digression, but it's really important to

797
01:04:50,519 --> 01:04:56,800
understand because it's really the core argument between the anarchists,

798
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,800
and in this case, I'm just embodying them in Karl

799
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,920
mar on the left and Mikhail Bakunin on the right,

800
01:05:05,079 --> 01:05:14,119
Mikhail Bakunin being really the inheritor of Prudon's standing because

801
01:05:14,119 --> 01:05:20,360
Prudon died in eighteen sixty five, and so Mikhail Bakunin,

802
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:25,239
who was a Russian anarchist, became the leading international voice

803
01:05:25,239 --> 01:05:31,920
for that orientation. And what it comes down to is

804
01:05:32,559 --> 01:05:39,960
Karl Marx believed that materialism and process like these historical

805
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:48,280
processes were scientific and they could be proven scientifically, and

806
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:53,199
then therefore he could make his predictions because he's a

807
01:05:53,239 --> 01:05:57,760
man of science and logic and he's looking at the

808
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:04,039
material conditions that everything are rooted in and how they develop.

809
01:06:04,559 --> 01:06:09,519
So he was a historical materialist, that's, you know, the

810
01:06:10,239 --> 01:06:13,760
basic way of describing him. He saw societies as developing

811
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:19,840
through material development and class conflict, with specific preconditions required

812
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:25,639
to make that progress. He had the same goal, supposedly

813
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:32,320
of a stateless system. However, but Kewnan argued that Marx

814
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:37,360
was a statist and an authoritarian, both in his theory,

815
01:06:37,599 --> 01:06:39,800
you know, which is rooted in the concept of the

816
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,800
dictatorship of the proletariat, where there has to be some

817
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,000
sort of state, you know, as an interim where the

818
01:06:48,039 --> 01:06:57,800
proletariat makes its assertions and develops the system of you know, socialism,

819
01:06:58,559 --> 01:07:05,000
state socialism and then communism over time, where they will

820
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:09,119
eventually arrive at the same desired goal as the anarchists,

821
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:14,280
whereas the anarchists saw that as something that would deteriorate intotlitarianism.

822
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:21,280
And who's that Jewish linguist. I can't think of his name,

823
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,760
all of a sudden, the anarchist that everyone knows about,

824
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:31,639
the libtard Oh, Chompsky, Chompsky, thank you, gnom Chomsky stated

825
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:38,000
that Bakunin's prediction that Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat would

826
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:45,920
deteriorate into totalitarianism is totalitarianism is the only or one

827
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,119
of the few accurate predictions in the social sciences that

828
01:07:49,159 --> 01:07:53,719
ever took place. So he calls Mikail Bakunin a social

829
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:59,719
scientist even though he was just a really a passionate,

830
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,599
idealistic revolutionary. And Karl Marx would turn over in his grave,

831
01:08:06,199 --> 01:08:11,760
which I hope he does constantly to see someone make

832
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:17,600
this statement that that Chomsky made, thank you. So I

833
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,640
want to also point out a couple of things about Bakunin.

834
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:24,399
One of the things is when you when you look

835
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:28,760
for material to read about Pacunan, there's there's not tons

836
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,159
of it. He has lots of incomplete little writing.

837
01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think there some people may assume he is

838
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:39,119
part of a certain tribe, but he certainly wasn't. He

839
01:08:39,239 --> 01:08:43,399
was actually Russian, like his dad was a Russian diplomat. Yeah,

840
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:46,840
they lived nowhere near near the Pale. I mean they

841
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,800
were they right near Moscow, and they had servants, and yeah,

842
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,960
I mean this is a guy who he's a Russian

843
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:56,239
who actually came from from some considerable means.

844
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah he was. He was Russian nobility, and he was

845
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,399
one of the things I remember constantly reading about but

846
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,520
not seeing a lot of proof of it when I

847
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:10,840
was a young man and I wasn't quite as wise

848
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:15,520
to the wink winks in this area. I'd be reading

849
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:20,439
material about anarchism and about Bakunin, and Jewish writers would

850
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:26,119
describe him as an anti Semite. And really what he

851
01:09:26,239 --> 01:09:31,359
was talking about a lot of the time is Karl Marx,

852
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:38,479
who who will also sometimes see described as an anti Semite,

853
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,079
even though he was the grandson of a of a

854
01:09:42,119 --> 01:09:45,159
long line of rabbis, and then his father wasn't a rabbi.

855
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:53,760
His father supposedly was baptized but raised Karl Marx primarily

856
01:09:54,239 --> 01:10:02,760
you know, non non religiously, but cunan. You know, when

857
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,359
when you look at your your series that you're doing

858
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:09,640
with doctor Johnson right now, about two hundred years together,

859
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,520
Bikunin was coming out of Russia, you know, in the

860
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:19,880
nineteenth century, seeing the way that Jews behaved commercially and

861
01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:24,159
so on, and was commenting on it, and that makes

862
01:10:24,199 --> 01:10:28,520
him an anti semi right. That's really where that that

863
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,960
criticism of Pecunin is is that his anti Semitism was

864
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,600
based on real things that he saw taking place. And

865
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,560
if your concern is the peasantry and righteousness, you're not

866
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:47,199
going to defend the Jews of the pale. It's just

867
01:10:47,319 --> 01:10:49,760
it's there's no scenari that would happen.

868
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:55,159
Speaker 1: Oh, you're allowed to celebrate certain behavior. If you criticize it,

869
01:10:55,199 --> 01:10:57,079
that's when it becomes a problem.

870
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:01,600
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. Whereas Karl Marx, you know, I don't have

871
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:07,159
prepared statements on this topic, but his his critiques of

872
01:11:07,159 --> 01:11:11,880
of of Jews that are described as anti Semitic are

873
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:17,600
more about the the religious practices and organizations and as

874
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,960
well as a lot of the kind of the the

875
01:11:22,079 --> 01:11:27,880
commercial behaviors. Again fair, fair critiques as a Jewish person himself,

876
01:11:28,319 --> 01:11:33,000
but you know it's I think they make too much

877
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:40,279
of the Cunan's supposed anti Semitism. Uh, it's just people

878
01:11:40,319 --> 01:11:43,520
that Jews don't like are anti Semites, is where that

879
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:48,359
comes from. But I don't like Michael, but Cunan he

880
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:53,000
was one of his most famous statements from his posthumously

881
01:11:53,039 --> 01:11:56,399
published God in the State, which is basically a fragment

882
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,520
of a of a book that was kind of put

883
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,199
together from a bunch of his writings. He was a

884
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:05,000
really disheveled man, as you can see on the right.

885
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,800
He would sit down and scribble things out on whatever

886
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,279
he could whatever he could find to write on, and

887
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,880
other people would put them together for him. He was

888
01:12:16,079 --> 01:12:21,520
very passionate and reactive like that. He he stated, if

889
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:26,600
God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.

890
01:12:27,039 --> 01:12:29,760
And then, you know, here's another one that'll sound familiar,

891
01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:34,039
you know, sla Lynsky said essentially the same thing, saying

892
01:12:34,199 --> 01:12:38,159
that this was the belief of the Jews. But this

893
01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:42,359
is Bakunan, the supposed anti Semite, saying this. But here

894
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,520
steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first free thinker,

895
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,880
in the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of

896
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:54,159
his beastial ignorance and obedience. He emancipates him. He stamps

897
01:12:54,199 --> 01:12:57,840
upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity in

898
01:12:58,039 --> 01:13:04,439
urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge. However,

899
01:13:05,319 --> 01:13:09,239
so this is a classic Libtard, you know position, right,

900
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:16,680
anti anti clerical, anti religious position. However, he also was

901
01:13:17,279 --> 01:13:23,880
very critical of the the revolutionaries themselves and really the

902
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,920
concept of power. And I think this will resonate You'll

903
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:31,720
understand what he's saying about marx and Marxists is true.

904
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:37,520
But it's also a something that we should examine within ourselves.

905
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:41,880
Have we internalized this thinking too much? Like with you

906
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,960
know libertarian priors quote, if you took the most ardent

907
01:13:47,079 --> 01:13:51,840
revolutionary vested him in absolute power, within a year, he

908
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:56,479
would be worse than the czar himself. So he had

909
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:06,399
this extremely revelutionary framing. But he was constantly critiquing the

910
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:15,479
danger of the revolutionary state in particular particular. So this

911
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:19,239
is the push pull between these two men in particular,

912
01:14:19,359 --> 01:14:21,600
not just the ideologies, but a lot of it came

913
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:26,119
down to the men disliking each other. Marx was pushing

914
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:32,640
for the International, the IWA to develop a single platform,

915
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,880
and he wanted to require the establishment of workers' parties

916
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:41,079
in each country that would follow the same program, the

917
01:14:42,079 --> 01:14:48,000
really communist International. That's what he wanted all along, whereas

918
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,880
this organization was originally supposed to be just everyone spreading

919
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:56,760
their ideas and the best idea would win, right, So

920
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:02,039
that is what's driving but Cunan and his people to

921
01:15:02,159 --> 01:15:05,640
make contact in Spain. It was to spread the ideas

922
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:10,279
in Spain, but also to get strength in this international

923
01:15:10,399 --> 01:15:18,640
organization for the anarchist idiom. So that's a lot of

924
01:15:19,359 --> 01:15:23,520
that's a lot of background, And what I want to

925
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:25,600
do is I want to point out where you get

926
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,960
a lot of these, the factionalism and all the different

927
01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:34,039
subisms and the modifiers, the adjectives that are applied to

928
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:41,199
various ideologies from the from the left, and this is

929
01:15:41,239 --> 01:15:48,119
just real basics. So obviously you have the three key

930
01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:53,720
strategies that are big differentiators between these different groups, and

931
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,760
you'll see that in these arguments that are taking place

932
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:01,199
and where people kind of bucket themselves or they apply

933
01:16:01,319 --> 01:16:05,439
these modifiers to themselves. So obviously you have the revolutionary

934
01:16:06,319 --> 01:16:09,880
and I have this on the far left side for

935
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:15,000
good reasons. You have the revolutionary leftist strategy, which is

936
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,960
that you don't legitimize the regime regime by participating in

937
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:25,399
the formal political process, so you organize solely to develop

938
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:32,920
alternative and ideological institutions that are under your control outside

939
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:38,640
of the existing system. You advocate violence against both the

940
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:43,159
state and your political enemies, which also includes like you know,

941
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:49,720
clergy and so on, and they use inflammatory rhetoric. The

942
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:56,760
pragmatic strategy is that you engage in collaboration with the

943
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:00,800
government if it achieves your goals, but you're generally revolutionary.

944
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:05,840
You organize to both develop alternative institutions as well as

945
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:11,520
to mobilize politically, like legally in the system you seek

946
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:18,239
the appearance of legitimacy, and internally these people are conflicted

947
01:17:18,279 --> 01:17:22,239
about the use of state power against other radicals, Like

948
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:27,720
they want to suppress the other radicals that oppose them,

949
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:31,119
but they also understand that that could be used against them.

950
01:17:31,159 --> 01:17:37,359
They have inconsistent rhetoric. And then there's the reformist tendency

951
01:17:38,079 --> 01:17:43,760
or strategy in leftism. They primarily work toward their goals

952
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:47,720
through the legal political processes, whether they do everything legally.

953
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,239
When I say legal political processes, I just mean the

954
01:17:51,279 --> 01:17:54,920
formal state. It's like the Democrats. Now, they violate the

955
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,119
law all the time, but it's done through this state.

956
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:02,880
They organized to engage age primarily with the legal political process.

957
01:18:03,319 --> 01:18:07,920
They condemn violence, right, but accept the use of force

958
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:13,439
against radicals. So they talk all the time about you know, peaceful, legitimate,

959
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,760
you know, authority and or legitimate processes and democracy and

960
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,399
all that bullshit, But they accept the use of force

961
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:30,279
against their enemies and they use careful rhetoric. So I

962
01:18:30,399 --> 01:18:34,199
point that out because when you look at all these

963
01:18:34,239 --> 01:18:37,079
different parties, you'll notice a lot of the argument is

964
01:18:37,119 --> 01:18:40,039
about not about what their goals are, but about how

965
01:18:40,079 --> 01:18:48,359
they get there. And so after this mission to Spain

966
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:59,720
and the the IWA starts grouping together these Spaniards and

967
01:19:00,319 --> 01:19:03,760
figure out where they're going to have a congress, where

968
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,520
their headquarters is going to be, kind of what their

969
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:11,960
program is going to be. They end up focusing on Barcelona,

970
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:21,520
and it's because Barcelona embraced this program, you know fully,

971
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:30,199
and so they their first Workers Congress was eighteen seventy

972
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,720
in Barcelona, and it was seen as a victory of

973
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:39,800
collectivist anarchism and a politicism over state socialism as it

974
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:47,239
relates to Spanish participation in the international. So essentially the

975
01:19:47,279 --> 01:19:55,439
IWA Congress in Spain is not working with the Spanish government.

976
01:19:55,880 --> 01:20:06,000
It's excluding all together the the Marxian and the collaborationist

977
01:20:06,079 --> 01:20:11,239
groups in Madrid, and they're just not interested in it.

978
01:20:12,279 --> 01:20:18,720
And because this message has come through to them, so

979
01:20:19,239 --> 01:20:24,680
why anarchism and not Marxism? Right, So the way that

980
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:29,640
these ideas spread was through and and engagement with the

981
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:36,279
i w A was spread through these anarchist oriented groups.

982
01:20:37,079 --> 01:20:43,880
And there's this really interesting concept from Aselmo Lorenzo and

983
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:48,119
some other folks on some Lorenzo is the man pictured

984
01:20:48,159 --> 01:20:51,640
here he's seen as a godfather and really like a

985
01:20:51,840 --> 01:21:00,600
historian of Spanish anarchism. He and a collaborator name Tomas

986
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:06,840
Gonzalez Morogo, who owned an engraving shop and publishing house

987
01:21:07,359 --> 01:21:14,119
which was interestingly in Madrid, but they were sending material

988
01:21:14,319 --> 01:21:20,159
all over the country of Spain in Spanish, whether it's

989
01:21:20,199 --> 01:21:23,720
their works, whether it's works coming from Bacunan and other people,

990
01:21:24,199 --> 01:21:30,479
a lot of it was actually Spanish anarchist material. They

991
01:21:32,159 --> 01:21:36,479
arrived at this idea where they would say, let's explain

992
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:42,920
our own history and our own beliefs. And Gonzalez Morago

993
01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:49,079
and Somelmo Lorenzo stated that anarchism and cauralism were expressions

994
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:56,119
of the same Spanish feeling. Again, it's not this scientific process,

995
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:01,800
it's this feeling in the Spanish that they felt incommon.

996
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:06,239
And while they were enemies because they were split on

997
01:22:06,399 --> 01:22:12,279
the really around the church is the biggest split between them.

998
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,640
They felt in their way of trying to argue and

999
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,520
get people to come over to their side, is that

1000
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:23,159
they're saying, we hate political farces like the Carlists. We

1001
01:22:23,279 --> 01:22:26,800
have a longing for a richer and deeper social life

1002
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:32,279
that you still see in some parts of you know, Spain,

1003
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:35,600
especially Carlists Spain. You still see this in the towns,

1004
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,680
you still see this all over the place. But we

1005
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:43,439
want to see social moral reform, just like them, except

1006
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:47,760
for the anarchists who are focused in the cities and

1007
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:50,880
and Lucia, where they feel like that the people on

1008
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:54,319
the bottom of the totem pole get the raw deal.

1009
01:22:57,279 --> 01:23:01,079
Theirs is a totally different miss and they feel that

1010
01:23:01,159 --> 01:23:04,760
there the Church is suppressing these people, while the Carlists

1011
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,039
embrace the Church as supporting them. I've talked about this

1012
01:23:08,079 --> 01:23:12,119
a lot. You have no bless obliege of Christian feudalism

1013
01:23:12,119 --> 01:23:15,319
in the north and in the southern areas and in

1014
01:23:15,359 --> 01:23:19,680
the cities, you don't have that. They felt that liberalism

1015
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:23,920
and state socialism were strengthening the bourgeoisie and the central

1016
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:32,720
government to the detriment of the working classes. So Gonzales Morago,

1017
01:23:33,279 --> 01:23:36,960
who was again the publisher, who was spreading a lot

1018
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:42,279
of this information, he was a delegate from the Spanish

1019
01:23:42,359 --> 01:23:46,720
IWA group. He was expelled from the International in eighteen

1020
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:55,039
seventy three, executed by the organization's General counsel. And because

1021
01:23:55,119 --> 01:24:01,119
it was he was an anarchist and so this absolutely

1022
01:24:01,199 --> 01:24:07,560
cemented the Spanish orientation with the international anarchist groups and

1023
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:11,520
not associated with the Marxist groups. The Marxist groups did

1024
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:17,359
really well with these state socialist and liberal groups that

1025
01:24:17,399 --> 01:24:22,000
were in Madrid, but not as a part of their organization,

1026
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:31,399
and the real revolutionary foment ended up with these these anarchists.

1027
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:39,159
Speaker 1: All right, that makes that makes a ton of sense.

1028
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,079
I mean, yeah, it actually really does. Yeah, And that's

1029
01:24:43,079 --> 01:24:44,479
why I wanted to walk through this.

1030
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:49,279
Speaker 2: It's it's a little it's there's a lot of stuff,

1031
01:24:49,319 --> 01:24:51,560
and there's a lot of details, but this stuff really

1032
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:54,239
has to be understood. And like I said that, the

1033
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:58,279
two books that I recommended at the beginning, the Spanish Anarchists,

1034
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,640
The Heroic Years By book a great book. And he's

1035
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:05,880
a really good writer too. He makes he makes a

1036
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:10,000
really sympathetic case, and he's really sympathetic with the Spanish,

1037
01:25:10,119 --> 01:25:14,800
even framing his presentation on the Carlists in a really

1038
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:18,439
sympathetic way like this resonates with him, or at least

1039
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:21,479
he states that it resonates with him, which is really

1040
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:27,079
interesting to think about. He became he became part of

1041
01:25:27,119 --> 01:25:31,279
that that that kind of wing of American anarchists that

1042
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:37,359
essentially became less political and more like focusing on localism

1043
01:25:37,399 --> 01:25:45,720
and environmentalism as as he got older, And it's agorithm yes, agorism, yeah,

1044
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:49,720
and and so it's an interesting it's an interesting position.

1045
01:25:50,079 --> 01:25:53,960
And I think that the overlap with uh that I

1046
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:57,720
think a lot of people who describe themselves as libertarians,

1047
01:25:58,119 --> 01:26:00,279
you know about this overlap a lot A lot of

1048
01:26:00,319 --> 01:26:06,079
them don't. So it's it's interesting, it's interesting, and people

1049
01:26:06,319 --> 01:26:10,039
people should, people should read, People should not watch TV

1050
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:14,119
nearly as much as they do, probably shit post less,

1051
01:26:14,159 --> 01:26:15,920
which is why you don't see me posting a whole

1052
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:19,119
lot because I'm reading so much right now. But it's like,

1053
01:26:19,199 --> 01:26:21,880
this stuff is all very interesting, and it helps you

1054
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:25,159
to have an informed position on these things, and then

1055
01:26:25,239 --> 01:26:28,880
also step back and compare it to your own situation,

1056
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:34,600
especially as it relates to when you're organizing. You know,

1057
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:38,199
what are the kinds of things in factionalism that you see?

1058
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:44,600
So what was the influence of the mission to Spain

1059
01:26:45,039 --> 01:26:48,239
beyond what I've talked about in Spain when we step

1060
01:26:48,319 --> 01:26:50,920
back and we come and look at the impact to

1061
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:56,039
the actual IWA congresses after the Spanish mission, So The

1062
01:26:56,079 --> 01:26:59,319
first one after the Spanish mission was the Basle Congress

1063
01:26:59,359 --> 01:27:03,159
eighteen sixty which had its first delegates from Spain and

1064
01:27:03,199 --> 01:27:08,199
they were both caught Alan anarchists, Rafael farga Ipelthier and

1065
01:27:08,319 --> 01:27:13,479
Gospar Sentignon. And then also the very first delegate from

1066
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:17,039
America came to the Basl Congress of eighteen sixty nine,

1067
01:27:17,239 --> 01:27:21,640
Andrew Cameron from the National Labor Union that the National

1068
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:26,439
Labor Union evolved into the Knights of Labor, and then

1069
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:32,720
also the American Federation of Labor AFL from AFLCIO the

1070
01:27:33,239 --> 01:27:37,640
Hague Congress of eighteen seventy two. So this is after

1071
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:42,239
the Paris Commune, which is really important. The Paris Commune

1072
01:27:43,239 --> 01:27:45,520
is a whole thing that we should probably dive into

1073
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,800
sometime and I'd be happy to put something together for that.

1074
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:59,279
But in the German French War eighteen seventy, the socialists

1075
01:27:59,279 --> 01:28:06,079
and anarchists of Paris barricade the city and defend it

1076
01:28:06,159 --> 01:28:09,239
against the French while also fighting against the excuse me

1077
01:28:09,279 --> 01:28:12,840
to defend it against the Germans, and then also end

1078
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:15,640
up fighting with the state. And this is a huge

1079
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:23,239
thing because the kind of slow evolution socialists and marks

1080
01:28:23,279 --> 01:28:25,720
and everyone has to respond to this, and they have

1081
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,399
to have their own hot take on what took place,

1082
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,279
and you have your argument for this is how things

1083
01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:36,079
should evolve. But also here's this really important thing that

1084
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:40,039
worked for a short period of time and then failed,

1085
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,680
and so you have to react to it. You have

1086
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:45,359
to have your own take. And so this is where

1087
01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:49,680
everyone had their hot takes on the Paris Commune, including Marx,

1088
01:28:50,039 --> 01:28:52,800
and his take is really interesting because you can see

1089
01:28:53,279 --> 01:28:56,359
that kind of balancing of his own framing. But what

1090
01:28:56,600 --> 01:29:02,239
happens at the Hague Congress Cunan and Guillome. You know

1091
01:29:02,319 --> 01:29:06,319
that the two most notable anarchists who are big supporters

1092
01:29:06,359 --> 01:29:11,119
of the Paris Commune are expelled from the IWA, and

1093
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:19,000
the anarchist wing of the IWA is reconvened at son Emier,

1094
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:23,159
Switzerland and declares itself to be the true heir to

1095
01:29:23,199 --> 01:29:29,680
the International. The Spanish, the Spanish Friai t their own delegate.

1096
01:29:30,119 --> 01:29:35,880
They formed the largest national chapter of the anarchists at

1097
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:40,239
the IWA. There were dozens upon dozens of them, and

1098
01:29:40,319 --> 01:29:45,359
they were on fire. They were ready, they were ready

1099
01:29:45,399 --> 01:29:53,560
for revolution. So what's taking place in Spain during this

1100
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:59,960
critical time? The split of the iwa so eighteen seventy three,

1101
01:30:00,359 --> 01:30:02,840
eighteen seventy six, I call it a swing and a miss.

1102
01:30:03,239 --> 01:30:09,079
So despite the Bourbon Restoration, El tourno pacifico, the peaceful

1103
01:30:09,239 --> 01:30:12,319
term that I was talking about before, where there's the

1104
01:30:12,399 --> 01:30:17,520
two major establishment parties, Conservative and Liberal, had this system

1105
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:20,840
where they said, we're going to determine, we're going to

1106
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:25,079
easily manage these general elections. We're going to switch back

1107
01:30:25,119 --> 01:30:29,279
and forth with one another. It had a powerful moderating

1108
01:30:29,319 --> 01:30:36,399
effect upon the legitimist Spanish political life for the remainder

1109
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,520
of the nineteenth century. In eighteen seventy three, the First

1110
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,560
Spanish Republic was proclaimed and it fell that same year.

1111
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:52,079
The president was caught Alan Federalist, Republican and anarchist front

1112
01:30:52,159 --> 01:30:57,039
sec P E Margall and we're going to look a

1113
01:30:57,039 --> 01:31:01,680
little more about who he was. Again, basically an anarchist

1114
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:05,279
was put in charge as president of the First Spanish

1115
01:31:05,279 --> 01:31:08,760
Republic because that's where the energy was at the time.

1116
01:31:09,039 --> 01:31:14,079
It sounds wild, but it's very important to understand this stuff.

1117
01:31:14,359 --> 01:31:18,560
The Bourbon Restoration took place in eighteen seventy four. Again

1118
01:31:19,239 --> 01:31:24,520
constitutional monarchy is implemented. This tempers the restoration, but it

1119
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:29,880
also moderates the extremists by giving them an outlet in

1120
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:37,479
this constitutional monarchy, and that whole deal that Torno pacifico

1121
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:43,039
the peaceful turn, peacefully switching back and forth between establishment

1122
01:31:43,119 --> 01:31:49,039
conservative and established meant liberal parties where they have alternating

1123
01:31:49,079 --> 01:31:54,680
periods of power, you know as facemen as face fags.

1124
01:31:55,479 --> 01:32:01,199
The radical parties are implicitly suppressed through this process, if

1125
01:32:01,239 --> 01:32:07,039
not explicitly done. So the fueros and home rule are

1126
01:32:07,079 --> 01:32:13,920
abolished in Basque Country now, so again, remember two decades before,

1127
01:32:15,159 --> 01:32:19,960
it was maybe three decades before it was abolished in Navarre,

1128
01:32:20,159 --> 01:32:23,479
and now it's abolished in Basque Country. This is a

1129
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:30,079
liberal victory. The liberals always saw home rule as being

1130
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:38,279
a like a tool of the carlists, the traditionalists, the

1131
01:32:38,319 --> 01:32:44,760
monarchists and Catholics against the central liberal government. So this

1132
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:50,479
is a big deal. It's not a republic, but it's

1133
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:54,239
probably even more moderating than the republic would have been.

1134
01:32:55,199 --> 01:33:02,279
And then Mikhail Bakunan dies in eighteen seventy six, so

1135
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:07,600
let's talk a little bit about fransect P E Margall,

1136
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:15,079
the first president of a Spanish republic, which only lasted

1137
01:33:15,079 --> 01:33:19,239
for less than a year. So he was Catalan. He

1138
01:33:19,319 --> 01:33:24,319
was a Republican politician for a good fifty years forty

1139
01:33:24,359 --> 01:33:28,199
seven years. He was a theorist and a publisher. He

1140
01:33:28,399 --> 01:33:34,840
was constantly writing, majorly influential despite his politicism, as they

1141
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:38,960
would describe it, he was participating in the political process,

1142
01:33:39,319 --> 01:33:46,079
but he was fundamentally an anarchist ideologically. He owned several

1143
01:33:46,119 --> 01:33:52,279
newspapers and journals. Here's an interesting one, La Raison. The

1144
01:33:52,399 --> 01:33:57,800
Reason was published in Basque Country and distributed in the

1145
01:33:57,840 --> 01:33:59,920
rest of the country. Part of the reason the Fuera

1146
01:34:00,279 --> 01:34:04,359
were cracked down on at the time was because it

1147
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:08,640
allowed some level of home rule where people could publish

1148
01:34:09,239 --> 01:34:14,640
in Basque Country until that was shut down by the

1149
01:34:15,319 --> 01:34:19,800
liberals in the central government in the eighteen seventies. And

1150
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:25,359
then he published the Discussion Ladiscussion. He was the principal

1151
01:34:25,399 --> 01:34:32,960
translator of Prudon's works, and he published his own book

1152
01:34:34,359 --> 01:34:41,279
called Reaction and Revolution, which is seminal Spanish leftist material

1153
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:45,800
and anarchist material in eighteen fifty four. I described it

1154
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:52,159
as Hegelian Prudonian. It's Reaction and Revolution. It's this whole

1155
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:59,439
thesis antithesis, synthesis approach. So it's really influential it's very interesting.

1156
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:02,520
Highly recommend it. It's not super long. You can find

1157
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:07,159
it in English online, and it's worth reading to understand

1158
01:35:07,159 --> 01:35:09,560
this mindset because you're like, but wait, I thought the

1159
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:12,960
anarchists didn't want to be part of the state. He

1160
01:35:13,239 --> 01:35:20,880
was a face man in the establishment political process. Sharing

1161
01:35:21,159 --> 01:35:29,319
these ideas another concept that's really important to understand. In

1162
01:35:29,359 --> 01:35:37,840
Spain and France. Another element of Prudonism. Prudonian thought is

1163
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:44,279
fundamentally Spanish pete. You will totally get this. Federalism was

1164
01:35:44,319 --> 01:35:47,199
the form of the First Spanish Republic, which lasted only

1165
01:35:47,239 --> 01:35:53,039
eleven months. It consists of largely autonomous territories, a multi

1166
01:35:53,039 --> 01:36:01,039
state nation, so which existed to facto exactly for centuries centuries.

1167
01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:05,920
It was the Spanish way of doing things. So this

1168
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:11,000
was baked into their thinking. It was baked into this

1169
01:36:11,199 --> 01:36:17,520
counter that it's this push pull of Madrid with these

1170
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:22,600
other groups. And again the First Spanish Republic was quashed

1171
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:30,479
and replaced with a system that the Madridians preferred, which

1172
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:37,680
was less autonomy. So there's a contemporary historian whose work

1173
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:44,479
is interesting. I'm going to buy his book on Largo Caballero.

1174
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:48,359
It's called the Spanish Lenin. It's only available in Spanish.

1175
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:51,199
It's not available online. I couldn't even find an e

1176
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:56,159
version of it, which facilitates my retarded Spanish reading, because

1177
01:36:56,159 --> 01:36:59,039
I can paste it into a translator and then look

1178
01:36:59,119 --> 01:37:01,920
up the Spanish worlds, you know, and do that hole

1179
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,359
back and forth. I'm gonna have to grind it out.

1180
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:10,560
But anyway, he's interesting, and he notes that related to federalism,

1181
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:15,760
the federalists reasoned in reverse that the Afranados, which is

1182
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:22,159
the frenchified Madrid liberals and moderates, who made the state

1183
01:37:22,279 --> 01:37:26,920
the cornerstone of their moderate modernizing project, did so to

1184
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:30,760
the detriment of the sovereign nation because they considered the

1185
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:35,000
nation would only reach the fullness of its existence if

1186
01:37:35,039 --> 01:37:38,880
the unitaryan centralist state. And again, when you say the

1187
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:42,239
unitarian centralist state, I'm going to preface the dash which

1188
01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:48,199
he fills in. This is the existing like creaking, groaning,

1189
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:54,920
cobweb covered superstate in Spain that had grown up during

1190
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:59,319
the Spanish Empire and become decrepit and corrupt. So it's

1191
01:37:59,359 --> 01:38:04,079
the existing tax structure. The quinto stel rey quintos del

1192
01:38:04,119 --> 01:38:08,600
rey is an old rule which is that twenty percent

1193
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:12,680
of all the loot, the treasure finds or the mining

1194
01:38:14,039 --> 01:38:17,960
going to the king, that twenty percent twenty to the king,

1195
01:38:19,199 --> 01:38:23,560
the forces of order, the government, ministries, and the monarchy,

1196
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:29,359
if all of that was conveniently scrapped, thus proposing a

1197
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:34,359
kind of nation without a state. So again, the idea

1198
01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:41,079
for this first Spanish Republic was a very weak central

1199
01:38:41,279 --> 01:38:47,600
state that would essentially be unable to deal with the

1200
01:38:47,640 --> 01:38:53,760
problems of the whole nation. Baked into the cake, as

1201
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:59,800
you say, de facto what they had for centuries, a millennia,

1202
01:39:00,119 --> 01:39:02,479
and it was seen as kind of the natural way

1203
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:06,560
of doing things in Spain, which was its greatest weakness, right,

1204
01:39:08,319 --> 01:39:15,239
So absolutely, so what happens. What happens with Spanish anarchism

1205
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:22,720
during this period the eighteen seventies to the nineties, it's

1206
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:26,159
kind of a radical bomb throwing period for anarchists all

1207
01:39:26,199 --> 01:39:29,359
over the world, including in America, although in America the

1208
01:39:29,399 --> 01:39:32,640
anarchists were a problem well into the twentieth century for

1209
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:36,439
an anarchist, not American anarchists. I'm looking at you Italians.

1210
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:42,520
I'm just kidding, not really, So what happens because there's

1211
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:48,640
the moderating influence of that Torno Pacifico with the central government,

1212
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:52,359
with the official institutions, etc. Well, what are they doing.

1213
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:59,439
They are living their beliefs. They are developing parallel institutions.

1214
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:08,039
So here's some examples. Francisco Ferrera is a hugely influential

1215
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:14,399
Spanish anarchist and Spanish educator and organizer, very influential in

1216
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:21,720
Spanish history. He develops the modern schools, which are schools

1217
01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:26,199
not run by the church, so they're secular schools. And

1218
01:40:26,239 --> 01:40:30,039
he has money because people love this system and they're

1219
01:40:30,079 --> 01:40:33,479
donating money to him. Very wealthy liberals are supporting him,

1220
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:37,479
so he develops a network of schools and a publishing

1221
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:43,239
house that spreads their ideas all over Spain, and people

1222
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:48,359
start implementing these things because they have resources to do it,

1223
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:54,560
and kind of the fragmented like exploration of these liberal

1224
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:59,960
ideas is taking place all over the country. And then addition,

1225
01:41:00,159 --> 01:41:06,119
only they're developing these federations of workers associations and labor councils,

1226
01:41:07,039 --> 01:41:10,720
which is essentially a form of syndicalism, which I'll explain

1227
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:15,520
here shortly on its own slide. They're forming their own

1228
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:21,920
leadership class. So through these processes, developing their own schools,

1229
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:26,359
developing their own libraries, developing their own kind of parallel institutions,

1230
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:32,000
their labor parties and councils. They're becoming very influential in

1231
01:41:32,039 --> 01:41:38,399
their communities, and they are developing their own leadership class

1232
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:42,840
people coming from the working class and peasant backgrounds. It's

1233
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:47,319
less these sympathizers that are coming from the nobility and

1234
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:56,000
the bourgeois classes. It's their own class of leaders and

1235
01:41:56,079 --> 01:42:02,239
thinkers that are very revolutionary fund ndamentally and possessed, imbued

1236
01:42:02,319 --> 01:42:07,079
with massive amounts of class consciousness and frankly seething resentment.

1237
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:10,920
But they're building this instead of being like, let's rush

1238
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:15,560
to revolution, it's let's establish our own thing. And it's

1239
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:20,680
not to step out and live free of the existing

1240
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:24,520
institutions so much as it's to have their own institutions

1241
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:29,039
with which they can actually challenge those existing institutions when

1242
01:42:29,039 --> 01:42:36,159
the time is right. So the Federation of Workers Associations

1243
01:42:36,159 --> 01:42:41,640
and Labor Councils called itself variably the Federation of Workers'

1244
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:47,760
Societies of the Spanish Region. They adopt the strictures of

1245
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:53,199
predecessors and these ideas they're flowing from the IWA and

1246
01:42:53,239 --> 01:42:57,760
the International and all these anarchist thinkers and really become

1247
01:42:57,920 --> 01:43:03,359
really strong through the seventies and into the eighteen eighties,

1248
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:08,600
and they begin to ride a wave of general strikes

1249
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:14,039
all around the country. Valencia, Sevilla, Saragoza and other anarchist

1250
01:43:14,119 --> 01:43:19,319
strongholds in Andaluthia, Town after town would be going on

1251
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:28,840
strike and demanding communist liberty communismo libertario, so like a collective,

1252
01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:39,239
a communal libertarianism. There were minor insurrections all over the place,

1253
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:44,119
and the movement in the countryside continued for several years,

1254
01:43:44,119 --> 01:43:47,680
did not come into an end until nineteen oh five

1255
01:43:48,319 --> 01:43:53,520
when famine in the south because of the weather literally

1256
01:43:53,600 --> 01:43:59,199
starved them into submission. So the agitation has spread all

1257
01:43:59,239 --> 01:44:03,079
over the place going into the twentieth century. These ideas

1258
01:44:03,079 --> 01:44:11,079
are deeply rooted and it's multi generational at this point. Syndicalism,

1259
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:17,239
remember when I was talking about how strategies and tactics

1260
01:44:17,239 --> 01:44:19,039
of how you get things as one of the key

1261
01:44:19,399 --> 01:44:25,359
differentiators of like leftist thinking and all these little dashisms.

1262
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:35,039
Anarchist syndicalism moragmatism, yes, exactly. Anarchist syndicalism was a revolutionary

1263
01:44:35,079 --> 01:44:40,239
movement that was also fairly pragmatic, that had a goal

1264
01:44:40,279 --> 01:44:43,319
of transferring the ownership and control of the means of

1265
01:44:43,359 --> 01:44:47,479
production and distribution to workers' unions, and so that was

1266
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:53,600
always their goal. This was a hugely Prudonian concept. And

1267
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:59,479
then laiden life. Here I have Jacques Sorel or Georges

1268
01:45:00,199 --> 01:45:05,760
excuse me, who was a French social philosopher who vacillated

1269
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:09,439
all over the place. He's a really interesting guy. Thomas

1270
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:11,600
has talked about him on your show a bit. I

1271
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,119
think it was on your show. Maybe it was, well,

1272
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:16,840
we did a couple we did a couple episodes on him.

1273
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:21,680
He very inspira inspired.

1274
01:45:21,199 --> 01:45:26,640
Speaker 1: The radical right or the radical right, but the socialist

1275
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:28,279
right in the early twentieth ventury.

1276
01:45:28,119 --> 01:45:32,359
Speaker 2: The socialist right. And this is the reason I'm showing

1277
01:45:32,399 --> 01:45:35,640
Sorel and talking about this way is because if you

1278
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:39,840
think about it, it's it's a very interesting idea. The

1279
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:43,479
fallen Gay where you know the Spanish Phalanx that the

1280
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:49,920
quote unquote fascist group in Spain. What they were really

1281
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:53,119
doing is they were saying, let's take the ideas for

1282
01:45:53,399 --> 01:46:01,159
organization and what motivates people, you know, among the poor,

1283
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:06,560
in the working class in particular, and let's let's use

1284
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:10,680
that for our own purposes because we do acknowledge that

1285
01:46:10,760 --> 01:46:17,279
we have social problems. And Sorell it's really interesting because

1286
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:22,159
there there were people who described just in some describe

1287
01:46:22,279 --> 01:46:33,319
his his position as really not changing but like redirecting

1288
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:39,880
his his thinking and his orientation as like a revision

1289
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:44,920
of Marxism that like breaks the link between revolution and

1290
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:50,039
the working class and replacing it with like the national community,

1291
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:56,439
which was which again Sorell passed away I think in

1292
01:46:56,520 --> 01:47:02,399
the in the twenties, but twenties, yeah, yeah, But this

1293
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:09,520
idea and the way he described it really really made

1294
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:13,920
a lot of the radical right groups sit up and

1295
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:16,680
take notice because they said, oh, my gosh, look at

1296
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:22,680
how powerful these things are, this this form of organization,

1297
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:29,239
as well as the fact that it really does mobilize

1298
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:35,079
this this group that has been radicalized, and we can

1299
01:47:35,239 --> 01:47:39,159
use to our own ends, you know, to support our nation,

1300
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:47,920
rather than it being this international an anti national effort

1301
01:47:48,119 --> 01:47:52,920
that would be directed towards destroying the nation itself. So

1302
01:47:53,039 --> 01:47:58,159
the strategy was one you unionize workers, and you advance

1303
01:47:58,239 --> 01:48:01,119
your demands through strikes and other forms of direct action.

1304
01:48:02,479 --> 01:48:05,640
But then there's an inherent dilemma to that, which is

1305
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:12,000
that work has become deradicalized as they get reforms over time, right,

1306
01:48:12,399 --> 01:48:16,079
like you get better pay and and the the This

1307
01:48:16,159 --> 01:48:21,239
is something that's huge in the within the the CNT

1308
01:48:23,079 --> 01:48:28,560
and that CNT fai kind of sub faction. And even

1309
01:48:28,600 --> 01:48:33,720
in the Spanish Civil War, the CNT is a less

1310
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:38,760
radical but anarchist, but also used to working with the

1311
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:44,439
central government and used to working with business owners and

1312
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:50,359
negotiating and getting things for their people. But that can

1313
01:48:50,399 --> 01:48:54,479
deradicalize them. And in fact, when when you have that

1314
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:58,279
whole argument around putting the revolution on hold for the

1315
01:48:58,319 --> 01:49:02,680
purposes of focusing on the war war UH and getting

1316
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:08,479
along collaborating with the Second Spanish Republic and the and

1317
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:12,199
the Marxists and the and the Soviets so that you

1318
01:49:12,199 --> 01:49:17,960
can get arms, that's deep, you know, that's counter revolutionary

1319
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:22,720
to the anarchists, and so it's this whole push pull

1320
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:28,800
that becomes a big thing. But the point is that

1321
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:34,600
this method allowed them to build massive organizations that were

1322
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:40,039
incredibly powerful in getting there and getting their way, as

1323
01:49:40,079 --> 01:49:44,239
well as mobilizing them for for the war that was

1324
01:49:44,279 --> 01:49:48,760
to come. So to wrap things up here, I just

1325
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:51,880
want to show this model and I think it's useful

1326
01:49:52,640 --> 01:49:59,199
to consider this, and Surrell, IWW is trash. The International

1327
01:49:59,239 --> 01:50:02,760
Workers of the World, we're trash. There's a monument not

1328
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:06,239
too far from where I grew up to them now,

1329
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:12,239
which disgusts me because the people that are honored there

1330
01:50:12,239 --> 01:50:17,560
were rightfully dealt with by American patriots after World War

1331
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:21,000
One in some some group violence that they were trying

1332
01:50:21,039 --> 01:50:27,560
to instill because they love their they love International Bolshevism.

1333
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:33,399
But the the organizational method is very interesting and it's

1334
01:50:33,720 --> 01:50:37,920
this is very similar to the model utilized by the CNT,

1335
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:44,279
the Spanish CNT, to mobilize and and organize. It's a

1336
01:50:44,319 --> 01:50:50,520
little more centralized form of cynicalism, but is still considered

1337
01:50:50,600 --> 01:50:57,279
under the blanket of a voluntariist type of organization in

1338
01:50:57,359 --> 01:51:02,039
the in the kind of anarchist and socialist miliu. So

1339
01:51:02,119 --> 01:51:06,479
the idea is that you have this structure of these councils,

1340
01:51:06,960 --> 01:51:10,600
these work councils and representatives engaging with one another, and

1341
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:13,680
the cities have their own councils that are broken up

1342
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:16,159
by these shop unions, and they have delegates that go

1343
01:51:16,199 --> 01:51:20,039
to other cities and to other unions, and they go

1344
01:51:20,159 --> 01:51:26,079
out to the individual they're organized at the office level,

1345
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:29,960
and you know, the specific industry that are people in,

1346
01:51:30,319 --> 01:51:33,119
people are in and everything like that, and this whole

1347
01:51:33,159 --> 01:51:37,560
structure allows them to organize and be able to communicate

1348
01:51:38,239 --> 01:51:44,960
with vast sweeps of the culture. And that is really

1349
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:49,079
an incredible model. And again I'm not saying we should

1350
01:51:49,119 --> 01:51:51,760
become syndicalists or anything like that, but I'd say it's

1351
01:51:52,079 --> 01:51:56,319
an incredible, incredible model for organizing people in like a

1352
01:51:56,359 --> 01:52:04,680
pragmatic way that Surrel saw and the more radical rights

1353
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:09,439
saw after the left had been using it as something

1354
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:15,479
to consider. And when you are in the position we're in,

1355
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:22,960
which is that you know, we've been essentially denationalized and

1356
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:33,000
you know, deracialized, we need to reconsider the ways of

1357
01:52:33,199 --> 01:52:36,760
organizing and you at least have to be open to

1358
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:39,680
exploring things that have been successful in the past and

1359
01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:42,920
taking what's useful Bruce Lee style and discarding what isn't.

1360
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:51,159
And the anarchists, despite the poverty of their of their philosophy,

1361
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:57,079
were very good at doing this, and this is some

1362
01:52:57,159 --> 01:53:02,119
of the methods that they used. So that concludes my

1363
01:53:02,119 --> 01:53:09,600
my ted talk. Thanks for your time, and I have

1364
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:14,720
some articles about this topic out of my substack. I

1365
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:17,840
don't have articles about this specific piece, but I think

1366
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:22,239
I'll do some threads and probably a support article with

1367
01:53:22,279 --> 01:53:25,359
some with some links to the to the various works

1368
01:53:25,399 --> 01:53:28,000
that I cited, because they're all available out there for

1369
01:53:28,119 --> 01:53:32,640
free online, and so I'll get that up with a

1370
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:37,039
link to this recording when it's when it's in the

1371
01:53:37,119 --> 01:53:43,000
clear for non subscribers to to Pete's podcast. But thanks

1372
01:53:43,039 --> 01:53:44,960
a lot, Pete. Appreciate it, and I'm glad we were

1373
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:45,680
able to do this.

1374
01:53:47,319 --> 01:53:48,439
Speaker 1: Oh, not a problem at all.

1375
01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:49,159
Speaker 2: This was great.

1376
01:53:49,279 --> 01:53:52,760
Speaker 1: It's always you always want to know what the conditions

1377
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:58,319
are that allows something like this to arise. Yeah, and yeah,

1378
01:53:58,359 --> 01:54:00,880
the conditions were ripe and it was just one of

1379
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:04,319
those things, you know. I have a tendency to look

1380
01:54:04,359 --> 01:54:08,640
at what happened in the nineteenth century and how so

1381
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:14,800
many things were happening in so many different countries. Some

1382
01:54:15,000 --> 01:54:18,920
might say, oh, well all of this was planned internationally. No,

1383
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:21,159
a lot of this stuff was happening organically at the

1384
01:54:21,199 --> 01:54:23,960
same time, totally, And I think that that has a

1385
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:25,920
lot to do with the spirit of the age, and

1386
01:54:26,279 --> 01:54:28,640
I think you have to look at that. You have

1387
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:32,399
to drop your materialism and start looking at that from

1388
01:54:32,680 --> 01:54:34,680
a metaphysical standpoint.

1389
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:37,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And that's

1390
01:54:37,600 --> 01:54:42,840
why I dove into the IWA, because it wasn't just

1391
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:48,359
about the ideas, right. The ideas were there that the

1392
01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:55,399
natural inclination of the Spanish corresponded, I should say of

1393
01:54:55,439 --> 01:55:02,560
the revolutionary Spanish specifically correlated to to the anarchists. But

1394
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:08,520
part of it was this struggle for the the argument,

1395
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:14,920
the international argument against the Marxists, and frankly, the anarchists

1396
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:19,880
lost the argument or again because of the nature the

1397
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:23,960
nature of their of their beliefs, they they kind of

1398
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:28,279
had to remove themselves from the way that the that

1399
01:55:28,319 --> 01:55:31,520
the Marxists were playing, and the Marxists took over the

1400
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:37,479
international socialist movement, even though it was wide open at

1401
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:41,119
the time. So yeah, it's the it was the spirit

1402
01:55:41,159 --> 01:55:43,920
of the age, absolutely, and and it can be hard

1403
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:47,039
to talk about too, because I was talking to someone

1404
01:55:47,359 --> 01:55:51,600
who's a mutual of ours on Twitter recently, and he's

1405
01:55:52,039 --> 01:55:55,279
in the UK, and he was saying that he he

1406
01:55:55,399 --> 01:56:03,520
isn't as radically anti international brigades as I was, or

1407
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:08,920
he has some sympathies to them, and and I stated

1408
01:56:09,039 --> 01:56:15,560
essentially that I understand that given that, again, the conditions

1409
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:21,039
on the ground were different for for them than they

1410
01:56:21,079 --> 01:56:23,720
were than they are for in America, but they're also

1411
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:27,800
different than they are in Spain. And you really have

1412
01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:32,720
to be you have to be open to reading these

1413
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:37,000
things and reading things that offend you. Uh to to

1414
01:56:37,159 --> 01:56:40,720
understand where where people are coming from so that you

1415
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:43,520
can understand your enemy. And if we listen to the

1416
01:56:44,199 --> 01:56:46,399
I mean, none of us are listening to James Lindsay,

1417
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:48,399
No one who's going to be listening to this things?

1418
01:56:48,479 --> 01:56:54,319
That guy's worth a shit. But those voices these retarded,

1419
01:56:55,239 --> 01:57:00,520
Like let's let's ignore the reality of what we're actually

1420
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:03,640
talking about and let's make claims that are totally a

1421
01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:09,479
historical and not based on fact whatsoever to to control

1422
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:13,640
the argument and control the debate, like we need to.

1423
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:18,159
We need to not only call those people out and

1424
01:57:18,239 --> 01:57:21,279
ignore them. We need to share real information and we

1425
01:57:21,319 --> 01:57:27,239
need to like engage with the material and ours is

1426
01:57:27,279 --> 01:57:31,680
the winning argument, Like you were saying before, you pretty

1427
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:35,840
much have to become our guys to survive. And I

1428
01:57:35,880 --> 01:57:38,560
think you know, we're in a very interesting time right now.

1429
01:57:39,079 --> 01:57:43,079
No one knows what's going to happen with the Trump administration. Uh,

1430
01:57:43,359 --> 01:57:46,199
you know, he was sworn in today. He made some

1431
01:57:46,399 --> 01:57:51,680
very very strong statements about what you know, his priorities

1432
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:54,439
are going to be. And I just don't think that

1433
01:57:55,479 --> 01:57:59,680
you're going to be able to reconcile this James Lindsey

1434
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:09,039
and you know RUFO kind of moderate nineties leftism with

1435
01:58:10,079 --> 01:58:13,279
what's being what has to be done, and the mission

1436
01:58:13,279 --> 01:58:16,039
ahead and the threats and who the enemies are. They're

1437
01:58:16,119 --> 01:58:18,239
not going to be able to reconcile it. But you

1438
01:58:18,279 --> 01:58:24,479
can reconcile it with like our beliefs and our positions. Yeah,

1439
01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:27,039
you can't.

1440
01:58:27,239 --> 01:58:33,479
Speaker 1: The the atmosphere and the the ideology, the strict ideology

1441
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:38,479
that allows subversion as such as we've seen, is not

1442
01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:43,159
going to It's an ideology. It can't change, yep. So

1443
01:58:43,760 --> 01:58:47,199
it's not going to be able to initiate any change.

1444
01:58:47,600 --> 01:58:50,039
And it's not only I remember one time he said,

1445
01:58:51,239 --> 01:58:55,920
classical liberalism hasn't even begun to know, begun to fight

1446
01:58:56,039 --> 01:58:58,279
kind of thing. And it's like all I see is

1447
01:58:58,279 --> 01:59:02,119
like real classical liberalism has never been tried exactly. Yeah,

1448
01:59:02,239 --> 01:59:08,159
And it just doesn't. It's not it's not understanding the

1449
01:59:08,159 --> 01:59:09,039
spirit of the age.

1450
01:59:10,359 --> 01:59:15,800
Speaker 2: Classical liberalism is the enemy.

1451
01:59:16,119 --> 01:59:22,560
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, I experienced this on on Twitter five six

1452
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:26,159
days ago. I posted up from nineteen thirty eight was

1453
01:59:26,159 --> 01:59:30,119
a speech Hitler gave and he described what he what

1454
01:59:30,239 --> 01:59:33,960
socialism meant to him. And I just asked a couple

1455
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:35,640
of people, I said, you know, what do you disagree

1456
01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:38,359
with in the statement? Nobody would answer the question.

1457
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1458
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:40,439
Speaker 1: They would go into like I mean, it was like

1459
01:59:41,119 --> 01:59:44,439
someone wrote like a paper or or copied and pasted

1460
01:59:44,520 --> 01:59:47,319
a paper talking about how Hitler was socialists. He did this, this, this,

1461
01:59:47,319 --> 01:59:51,399
this is I'm like, answer the question, what do you

1462
01:59:51,439 --> 01:59:55,680
disagree with in the statement? Well, there's this this? I'm like,

1463
01:59:57,439 --> 02:00:06,239
are you so locked into your worldview of socialism? This

1464
02:00:06,319 --> 02:00:09,279
is my meaning of socialism? This is my dad. This

1465
02:00:09,319 --> 02:00:12,079
is how I define it. Yeah, there's no other possible

1466
02:00:12,079 --> 02:00:15,199
way of defining it. So when you when I see

1467
02:00:15,239 --> 02:00:18,119
something that goes up against the grain, I have to

1468
02:00:18,199 --> 02:00:21,359
answer with my no, what do you disagree with in

1469
02:00:21,359 --> 02:00:21,960
this statement?

1470
02:00:22,520 --> 02:00:23,479
Speaker 2: Oh? You can't answer.

1471
02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:26,159
Speaker 1: Fuck you you're not my You're not on my.

1472
02:00:26,159 --> 02:00:34,680
Speaker 2: Team exactly exactly. I think the most important thing for

1473
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:40,680
us to think about is when you you have to

1474
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:43,520
look at what you actually want, what outcome? Do you want,

1475
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:49,159
like outside step outside of ideology, I feel like I've

1476
02:00:49,199 --> 02:00:54,079
become post ideological, though I'll I could also there's also

1477
02:00:54,159 --> 02:00:58,159
ideologies that people could say that I have, and they

1478
02:00:58,159 --> 02:01:02,079
are the ones that are essentially third positionist, although I

1479
02:01:02,119 --> 02:01:05,439
also understand the argument that there's no such thing given

1480
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:11,079
America twenty twenty five right, a totally fair argument, which

1481
02:01:11,119 --> 02:01:14,359
is why I ultimately say I'm post ideological and that

1482
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:17,079
I step back and I look at it like this,

1483
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:19,840
what outcomes do I want and who do I want

1484
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:24,399
them for? It's like it's like things that happen to

1485
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:27,840
people and what people do I care about. What people

1486
02:01:27,920 --> 02:01:30,680
do I don't care about, Like I don't have any

1487
02:01:30,720 --> 02:01:35,279
hostility towards people in foreign countries, but I it's not

1488
02:01:35,359 --> 02:01:38,000
my job to lift them up, and in our country

1489
02:01:39,239 --> 02:01:43,199
I care more about, you know, good people in the

1490
02:01:43,239 --> 02:01:48,199
people in my family, for example, or people that are

1491
02:01:48,359 --> 02:01:51,199
like me and want the same outcomes that I want

1492
02:01:51,359 --> 02:01:55,039
than other people who are I'm not interested in sucking

1493
02:01:55,119 --> 02:01:57,279
up to. And so it's like, if you look at

1494
02:01:57,279 --> 02:02:01,880
it from that perspective outside of ideology, who gives a shit?

1495
02:02:02,520 --> 02:02:05,960
I mean, if it's so easy to see, like you

1496
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:13,800
were saying, that socialism in contexts means different things, and

1497
02:02:15,319 --> 02:02:22,640
he specifically used that word because it one meant something

1498
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:28,079
in German. And it also stole that argument away from

1499
02:02:28,079 --> 02:02:33,840
his enemies. It stole the this is socialism, this is

1500
02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:37,680
this is caring about society and like social you know,

1501
02:02:37,960 --> 02:02:42,840
the social good. It became his. He owned it at

1502
02:02:42,840 --> 02:02:45,439
that point because he said, no, that's nonsense. I can

1503
02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:53,079
reconcile these things and neutralize my opponents because it isn't

1504
02:02:53,439 --> 02:02:55,960
what you say it is, it's what I say it is.

1505
02:02:56,199 --> 02:02:59,840
And that resonated with people. He didn't say it that way.

1506
02:02:59,880 --> 02:03:02,079
He just said, this is what socialism is to us,

1507
02:03:02,920 --> 02:03:08,119
and that's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Yeah, people.

1508
02:03:10,359 --> 02:03:13,479
Speaker 1: People have a tendency to look at ideology and think

1509
02:03:13,520 --> 02:03:16,000
that that's exactly how it's going to be. It's going

1510
02:03:16,079 --> 02:03:18,840
to be right down the you know, we get it implemented.

1511
02:03:18,920 --> 02:03:22,079
This is exactly how it's going to work. Nope, that's

1512
02:03:22,119 --> 02:03:24,199
that's not how it works at all.

1513
02:03:24,439 --> 02:03:26,000
Speaker 2: It's not how it works.

1514
02:03:26,439 --> 02:03:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you created it, You created it in a lab,

1515
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:33,199
and you haven't introduced it to human beings yet. I

1516
02:03:33,159 --> 02:03:35,439
would introduced it to human beings. You're going to find

1517
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:39,239
you're going to find out that it's if it works,

1518
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:41,239
it's not going to be it's not going to be

1519
02:03:41,319 --> 02:03:43,479
exactly how you want it, and you're going to have

1520
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:46,000
to start with the trade offs as much as it's

1521
02:03:46,039 --> 02:03:47,039
going to be painful.

1522
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:50,199
Speaker 2: I was reading I've been reading something over the past

1523
02:03:50,239 --> 02:03:53,239
couple of days. I've been about Deruti, who was the

1524
02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:59,640
basically the the anarchist militant like military leader during the

1525
02:04:00,039 --> 02:04:06,319
Inner Civil War, and all these arguments about the collaboration

1526
02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:11,880
of the CNT like councils with these other groups, and

1527
02:04:13,199 --> 02:04:17,600
de Rudy's position and whether or not we have you know,

1528
02:04:18,680 --> 02:04:24,079
real real transcripts of this really important speech that was

1529
02:04:24,159 --> 02:04:28,199
broadcast on radio in you know, in Barcelona, and all

1530
02:04:28,239 --> 02:04:31,439
this and all these things, and and it's so funny

1531
02:04:31,479 --> 02:04:37,439
because they they veer between the practical and the ideological

1532
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:40,119
so much in the way people talk about these things

1533
02:04:40,680 --> 02:04:45,359
that it's it's just another form of obfuscation that takes

1534
02:04:45,399 --> 02:04:49,560
place or people or or it's really rooted in an

1535
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:54,560
argument that people are having now, like there there's anarchist groups,

1536
02:04:54,720 --> 02:04:59,239
there's a CNT political party in Spain right now, and

1537
02:04:59,319 --> 02:05:02,880
all these other groups that like call them like traders

1538
02:05:03,000 --> 02:05:07,159
and betrayers of the of the anarchist you know, ideology

1539
02:05:07,239 --> 02:05:11,560
and the people. It's it's all this classic, this classic

1540
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:16,479
argumentation that you know is totally familiar to people who

1541
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:20,600
study this stuff, and and it just comes down as

1542
02:05:20,600 --> 02:05:24,640
so petty and pointless that the last thing we should

1543
02:05:24,680 --> 02:05:27,960
be doing is engaging in that stuff. You know, call out,

1544
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,600
call out your enemies when they claim to be on

1545
02:05:30,680 --> 02:05:33,479
your side and aren't. But other than that, just like,

1546
02:05:33,600 --> 02:05:39,199
move forward, stop worrying about ideology, start thinking about results.

1547
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:45,399
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and if your if your enemy takes out

1548
02:05:45,479 --> 02:05:49,039
another you know, it does something that neutralizes doesn't have

1549
02:05:49,119 --> 02:05:53,960
to be death, but neutralizes another one of your other enemies. Okay,

1550
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:55,960
that's something to be celebrated.

1551
02:05:56,119 --> 02:05:56,359
Speaker 2: Yep.

1552
02:05:56,439 --> 02:05:58,399
Speaker 1: I had someone on I had someone on Twitter this

1553
02:05:58,479 --> 02:06:02,840
morning who was like mad because it's like, well, we

1554
02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:05,359
can't celebrate that person because it's not on our side.

1555
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:08,800
We can't celebrate what happened because that's not well fuck you,

1556
02:06:09,279 --> 02:06:11,800
oh it's ridiculous. Yeah, but you don't want to know.

1557
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:13,520
You don't want to win, you just want to be right.

1558
02:06:14,079 --> 02:06:15,560
There are people who want to win, and there are

1559
02:06:15,600 --> 02:06:18,520
people who want to be right. I'm not really interested

1560
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:19,640
in the people who want to be right.

1561
02:06:20,239 --> 02:06:24,680
Speaker 2: I am, yeah, I am. I'm very tired of engaging

1562
02:06:24,720 --> 02:06:29,039
with those people because it's it's just a waste of time,

1563
02:06:30,319 --> 02:06:30,680
all right.

1564
02:06:31,199 --> 02:06:34,159
Speaker 1: I will link up to everything here, Carl Doll dot

1565
02:06:34,199 --> 02:06:37,760
substack dot com, your Twitter, and I also I have

1566
02:06:37,800 --> 02:06:40,039
a link for your merchan. You will be in the

1567
02:06:40,079 --> 02:06:45,079
show notes, yes sir, and until we until we find

1568
02:06:45,119 --> 02:06:49,760
another subject on this to uh to podcast on, because.

1569
02:06:51,119 --> 02:06:53,319
Speaker 2: It's endless with it's endless.

1570
02:06:53,479 --> 02:06:58,119
Speaker 1: It's endless, all right, Carl, thank you.

1571
02:06:58,439 --> 02:07:14,199
Speaker 2: Pete s