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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Why we Do what we do. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Why we do what we do Mini. I am

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<v Speaker 1>your host Abraham and I'm your host Shane. We are

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<v Speaker 1>a psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans

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<v Speaker 1>and non human animals do. And this is a mini

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<v Speaker 1>which means it's short, which means we're gonna do a

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<v Speaker 1>quick discussion about a thing and then it'll be over

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<v Speaker 1>and you'll be like.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, that was quick, and then yeah, that's what's happening.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep, that's how it goes. That's usual what minis do.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe, yes, that's what we aim to do. Sometimes they

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<v Speaker 1>run a little long. But today we are talking about

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<v Speaker 1>something very silly and fun and whimsical and hopefully that

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<v Speaker 1>leaves you feeling fun and silly and whimsical too.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, today we're talking about mosh pits, yeah, which is

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<v Speaker 4>something that I have been exposed to more than half

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<v Speaker 4>my life.

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<v Speaker 1>I have some questions for you about your experiences here,

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<v Speaker 1>but before we jump into this, I would like to

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<v Speaker 1>tell all of you listeners that if you are joining

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<v Speaker 1>us for the first time, then welcome. We hope you

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<v Speaker 1>like what you hear in this discussion. And if you're

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<v Speaker 1>a returning person, then welcome back. Thanks for continuing to

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<v Speaker 1>check us out. And either way, if you'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>support us, you can join us on Patreon, leave us

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<v Speaker 1>a rating and a review like subscribe, Tell a friend.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll talk more about that at the end of this discussion,

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<v Speaker 1>but this is a mini so we need to jump

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<v Speaker 1>into it. So topic du jour mosh pits. Many people,

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<v Speaker 1>possibly probably many listeners of this podcast. We'll have some

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<v Speaker 1>fond memories of going to rock concerts and then going

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<v Speaker 1>crazy in the moshpit also just called a pit, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>or the pit. And for those of you who are

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<v Speaker 1>uninitiated who may be not clear on what we're saying

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<v Speaker 1>when we describe a mosh pit, this is a in

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<v Speaker 1>a concert like area where you have usually a band playing,

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<v Speaker 1>they're this sort of dancing area in the middle quote

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<v Speaker 1>unquote dancing and this is a place in the crowd

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<v Speaker 1>where people are sort of aggressively throwing their bodies around

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<v Speaker 1>at each other with the music. Its directly corresponds with

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<v Speaker 1>the music and usually the vibe of the music at

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<v Speaker 1>the time.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, so unfortunately, in some situations can be very dangerous

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<v Speaker 4>depending on the band, the location, the people in the moshpit.

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<v Speaker 4>There's lots of factors that play in a role in here,

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<v Speaker 4>but we're going to unpack the history and evolution of

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<v Speaker 4>moshpits and kind of where it started, which is going.

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<v Speaker 3>To be a lot of fun. I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think we're ready to dive in. Unless there's

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<v Speaker 1>anything that I'm missing or you'd.

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<v Speaker 2>Like to add, no, we can.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we can do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So, although we are going to describe some of the

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<v Speaker 1>dangers in general, I think we have some fond feelings

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<v Speaker 1>about these. So please don't interpret our naysaying as naysaying.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just being comprehensive in our analysis here. Now, moshpitz

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<v Speaker 1>started to emerge as slam dancing in the late nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>seventies early nineteen eighties. That's at least what people sort

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<v Speaker 1>of think is probably the timeline there, and this was largely,

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<v Speaker 1>if not exclusively, performed during live music performances, most often

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<v Speaker 1>by punk, metal and hardcore or hard rock music groups.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, some believe it started in LA and the US,

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<v Speaker 4>specificly Los Angeles, but quickly spread across the country and

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<v Speaker 4>then internationally within a year or two. The word mash

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<v Speaker 4>likely comes from people calling it mashing, it turned into

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<v Speaker 4>mash over time. Some credit this changed the DC based

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<v Speaker 4>hardcore band Scream, whose singer Pete Stall called on people

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<v Speaker 4>to mash but maybe was sometimes unclear and whatnot. Also

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<v Speaker 4>fun fact about Scream, their drummer went on to play

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<v Speaker 4>drums in a very famous band called Nirvana.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's fun.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Dave Grohl was their drummer. Dave Grole quit Scream

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<v Speaker 4>to join Nirvana.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, okay, yeah, see, I mean we've talked about in

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<v Speaker 1>our English accents how a common way to hear an

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<v Speaker 1>a sound sometimes is an awe sound. So if they

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<v Speaker 1>said mash, but what people heard was mash and it

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<v Speaker 1>turned into mash, at least some people believe that's that

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<v Speaker 1>where the term morphed. It could also be that just

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<v Speaker 1>sort of changed over time from mash to mosh because

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<v Speaker 1>that just sounded fun. Yeah yeah, who knows, but that's

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<v Speaker 1>where the name sort of comes from. The first quote

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<v Speaker 1>unquote dance move associated with moshpits is called the pogo,

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<v Speaker 1>which I saw largely credited to said Vicious. But this

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<v Speaker 1>is simply jumping up and down as if on a

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<v Speaker 1>pogo stick. I imagine people have been doing this long before

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<v Speaker 1>said vicious, And I'm not sure that this exactly falls

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<v Speaker 1>in line with what I would think of as a

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<v Speaker 1>mosh pit, but that's where a lot of people describing

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<v Speaker 1>mosh pits start is with this dance move where you're

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<v Speaker 1>sort of bouncing up and down. Most people think of

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<v Speaker 1>physical contact with others as sort of the defining feature

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<v Speaker 1>of a mosh pit.

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<v Speaker 2>You're sort of pushing up against each other.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there are some great clips from there's a movie

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<v Speaker 4>called The Decline of Western Civilization and there's some really

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<v Speaker 4>great clips of like punks in La describing slam dancing

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<v Speaker 4>and the different moves and whatnot. It's really great, like

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<v Speaker 4>tutorial fun for this, and it's just really funny because

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<v Speaker 4>you're like it captures such a particular time, which, for

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<v Speaker 4>those of you don't know, the reason this is likely

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<v Speaker 4>the reason it likely started in La this is kind

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<v Speaker 4>of slam dancing is because the La punk scene was

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<v Speaker 4>incredibly violent, Like it was people were getting hurt all

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<v Speaker 4>the time. They were also fighting all the cops because

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<v Speaker 4>the cops were like rating all their shows for no reason. Like,

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<v Speaker 4>it was an incredibly violent scene in the late seventies

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<v Speaker 4>and early nineties. So mashing makes sense as a byproduct

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<v Speaker 4>of La punk.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time, So yeah, I gotcha.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 4>In a pit, people will generally slam their bodies into

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<v Speaker 4>each other in a kind of jumping pushing motion, but

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<v Speaker 4>they aren't usually trying to go anywhere. Instead, it's just

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<v Speaker 4>kind of a centralized area of the crowd full of writhing,

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<v Speaker 4>pushing people. That usually takes somewhat of a circular form.

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<v Speaker 4>It kind of opens up and like there's like a

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<v Speaker 4>circle in the middle of the floor and people are

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<v Speaker 4>kind of bumping into each other and pushing into each

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<v Speaker 4>other in that space.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And to that end, mosh pits tend to have

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<v Speaker 1>two main forms. There are actually many different like forms

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<v Speaker 1>of mashing, but you sort of have either a circle

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<v Speaker 1>pit or a wall of death as sort of how

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<v Speaker 1>these are off and described. The circle pit usually involves

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<v Speaker 1>people pushing and jumping against each other in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that a large circle in the audience sort of is

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<v Speaker 1>rotating in a clockwise direction. So to help illustrate that,

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<v Speaker 1>if you are like far away from the stage and

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<v Speaker 1>then you enter the circle pit, eventually as you're moving

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<v Speaker 1>around sort of the perimeter of the pit you'll get

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<v Speaker 1>closer to the stage, and as you keep moving, you'll

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<v Speaker 1>be further away from the stage. Again, you just are

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<v Speaker 1>going sort of moving in. You're not spinning in circles

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<v Speaker 1>in place. You're like following a large crowd that's rotating

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<v Speaker 1>in a circle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, usually counterclockwise.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, there was a study that just came out that

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<v Speaker 4>said that circle pits almost never go clockwise. They almost

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<v Speaker 4>always go counterclockwise.

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<v Speaker 2>Something about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they almost always go counterclockwise for whatever reason. And

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<v Speaker 1>then in the middle of the circle pit, that's usually

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<v Speaker 1>kind of open. There's usually only a few people in there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a lot of act of actual bodies in

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<v Speaker 1>the very middle. They're kind of all around the perimeter

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<v Speaker 1>pushing around in sort of a circular counterclockwise motion.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there is usually somebody in the middle. They're holding

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<v Speaker 4>up a sign with an ad on it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're back. We've been describing the circle pit as

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<v Speaker 1>a version of this. There's like different types of moves

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<v Speaker 1>and ways of this can exist, but sort of broad categories.

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<v Speaker 1>You have circle pit and wall of death, and we

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<v Speaker 1>just talked about the circle pit, which means.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you go in a circle, right, it was just fun. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>the wall of death is a lot of fun. Where

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<v Speaker 4>people will line up against either the left side or

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<v Speaker 4>the right side of the crowd. They'll face each other

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<v Speaker 4>and their perpendicular to the stage, the middle is very open,

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<v Speaker 4>and then what they'll do is they'll rush at each

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<v Speaker 4>other like soldiers at battle and collide in the middle

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<v Speaker 4>and push and shove and do those kinds of things.

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<v Speaker 4>Knocked Loose does this at every one of their shows,

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<v Speaker 4>so you can see clips of like, Yeah, you can

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<v Speaker 4>see clips of like Knock Loose setting up walls of

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<v Speaker 4>death in their shows and then watching people run on

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<v Speaker 4>each other and you might be going, well, why, And

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<v Speaker 4>that's just part of the fun it is.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll kind of get to that as we go.

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<v Speaker 1>There is also a more extreme version of washing that

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<v Speaker 1>you might see at shows, particularly of like hardcore bands,

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<v Speaker 1>and these sort of quote unquote dance moves are called

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<v Speaker 1>crowd killing. Yeah, and these are a lot more intense.

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<v Speaker 1>These are people throwing actual karate kicks and punches. They're

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<v Speaker 1>doing arm swings, kicking, stomping, flailing, and sometimes downright acrobatic

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<v Speaker 1>moves such as backflips. These look very aggressive, like you

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<v Speaker 1>do not want to get close to someone who is

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<v Speaker 1>doing this, because it's intended to be aggressive, Like they're

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<v Speaker 1>creating a sort of perimeter of space around them that

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<v Speaker 1>like if you get within that space, you're likely to

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<v Speaker 1>get punched or kicked. And not that they're directing anyone,

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<v Speaker 1>they're just throwing these moves about all over the place.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>I have been the person rendering first aid to people

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<v Speaker 4>being struck by some of these folks on more than

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<v Speaker 4>one occasion. Yeah, you know, for a long time, I

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<v Speaker 4>kept the first aid kit in my card, not because

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<v Speaker 4>I work in behavior analysis, but because I go to

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<v Speaker 4>hardcore shows. It's not my favorite thing. I don't like it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>we're gonna say too, like I think it's just like

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<v Speaker 4>one of those things I don't I just like it.

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<v Speaker 4>But like having been a hardcore kid for a long time,

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<v Speaker 4>like that was something that was just we see it

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<v Speaker 4>all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's kind of fun to watch.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, not someone get hit, but like someone just

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<v Speaker 1>like throwing these kicks and punches can be a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit entertaining. And like I also you kind of feel

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<v Speaker 1>for as we're going to get into this, like someone's

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<v Speaker 1>like sew into the music they're just like expressing themselves

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<v Speaker 1>in that way. So it's like, I don't necessarily want

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<v Speaker 1>to completely shut it down, but it's not my I

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<v Speaker 1>don't particularly want to be around it, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want people to get hurt by it either. So the

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<v Speaker 1>preferred mosh pit for me is a circle pit.

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<v Speaker 4>I think, Yeah, I like a good circle pit. I

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<v Speaker 4>also prefer stage diving, but right now, my old age,

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<v Speaker 4>like I'm like, I think I just like sitting in

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<v Speaker 4>the back and just watch it. Yeah, like, let's go

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<v Speaker 4>with that right now, I'm at that age, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>or I like to be in the band playing, like

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<v Speaker 4>that's what I prefer right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, yeah, that's great.

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<v Speaker 4>So now the dancing that we're describing, like it varies

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<v Speaker 4>a lot, Like, you know, we talked about the circle pit,

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<v Speaker 4>we talked about the wall of death, we talked about

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<v Speaker 4>hard coordiencing, we talked about people kind of throwing their

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<v Speaker 4>bodies into one another and whatever it looks like, right,

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<v Speaker 4>there's lots of different ways to do this. We didn't

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<v Speaker 4>even talk about skanking. We're going to that's okay, good, perfect,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm so glad we are. So the dancing is largely

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<v Speaker 4>express as a positive reaction to the band's energy and

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<v Speaker 4>music and feeds off of the band's enthusiastic performances, which

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<v Speaker 4>also feeds off of the crowds enthusiastic response. So there's

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<v Speaker 4>kind of like a given a take in it back

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<v Speaker 4>and forth. That definitely plays a role. Like I've played

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<v Speaker 4>in bands where people have not showed up, not participated,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's really difficult to get to try to drum

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<v Speaker 4>up the energy right to get the people responding. But

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<v Speaker 4>when you play a show and people are responding and responding, well,

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<v Speaker 4>you're like, okay, I get it. Like it's intoxicating almost Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's an element of the sort of the

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<v Speaker 1>physical contact with people that's usually like it's a little rough,

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<v Speaker 1>but most of the time it's not too uncomfortable, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's like the adrenaline and you got your energy's pumping

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<v Speaker 1>and you're jumping and you're moving, and like, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's a large part of what people enjoy about it.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's like to music you really like that you

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<v Speaker 1>feel really passionately about and you're just like you're getting

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<v Speaker 1>all the feels going on and it's just fun to

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<v Speaker 1>get in there. I historically have pretty much exclusively avoided moshpitz.

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<v Speaker 1>I think I've been in one or two in my days,

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<v Speaker 1>but I just I don't like being assaulted. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>like being hurt or pushed or kicked, and so I

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<v Speaker 1>just never wanted to be in those situations. So I

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<v Speaker 1>usually when I was younger, I would put myself as

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<v Speaker 1>close to the front as possible because usually the very

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<v Speaker 1>front is immune to the mosh pit, or i'd put

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<v Speaker 1>myself to the side of the back. Anymore, I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 1>happy in the back, just being away, just being able

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<v Speaker 1>to enjoy the live performance without being crushed or punched

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<v Speaker 1>or kicked.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Worth noting that there is some significant risk involved sometimes.

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<v Speaker 1>As a couple of stories, a seventeen year old girl

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<v Speaker 1>was seriously injured and a mashpit at get this, a

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<v Speaker 1>Smashing Pumpkins concert in nineteen ninety six, and she did I.

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<v Speaker 3>Could see that. I could see that.

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<v Speaker 2>Six. Yeah, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>She did later die of her injuries at the hospital.

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<v Speaker 1>And another Smashing Pumpkins fan died in a mash pit

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and seven, which is horrible. There were

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<v Speaker 1>seven other moshpit deaths between nineteen ninety four and two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and six. And there are also deaths due to

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<v Speaker 1>like crowd rushing that are not necessarily sarily related to pits.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you look up some of the recent like

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<v Speaker 1>crowd issues where people died, they were usually like the

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<v Speaker 1>crowd was rushing a stage or there were rushing a

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<v Speaker 1>venue and people got crushed against the doors and they

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<v Speaker 1>were asphyxiated. But it wasn't actually a pit as part

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<v Speaker 1>of the concert. But people have died in these, People

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<v Speaker 1>have been injured in these and taken to the hospital.

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<v Speaker 1>Bones have been broken, people have been stabbed or hit

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<v Speaker 1>with heavy equipment like crowbars and stuff. So it's they

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<v Speaker 1>can be dangerous and again not something we would ever

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<v Speaker 1>advocate for in that way.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I played a show one time where somebody brought

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<v Speaker 4>a chainsaw.

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<v Speaker 3>Into the pit.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, no, thank you.

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<v Speaker 4>They tried to kill our guitar player as a whole thing. Wow,

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<v Speaker 4>that's a story for a different day. I think that's

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<v Speaker 4>something that's really important to know is like there's a

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<v Speaker 4>couple things, like there are a lot of social rules

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<v Speaker 4>with this, Like so when you are like in a

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<v Speaker 4>mosh pit, like there is like an unspoken rule that

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<v Speaker 4>like you make sure if somebody falls, you pick them up. Like,

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<v Speaker 4>if somebody gets hurt, you help them out. Like there

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<v Speaker 4>are some like unspoken rules inside of this that I

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<v Speaker 4>don't think that we we talk about as much, but

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<v Speaker 4>I do. It is important to know those, Like even

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<v Speaker 4>though they appear to be very unsafe, and they can

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<v Speaker 4>be unsafe, there is also like that level of protection too,

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<v Speaker 4>there's like an unspoken understanding the people who don't follow

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<v Speaker 4>those rules are often tossed in those situations too. And

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<v Speaker 4>also too, the band plays a huge part of this,

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<v Speaker 4>like bands do a great job of trying to coach

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<v Speaker 4>audiences to be respectful to one another in the pit

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<v Speaker 4>and specifically requested if someone falls down that they help

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<v Speaker 4>pick them back up. Many rock bands explicitly condemned moshing

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<v Speaker 4>and request their audience abstained from doing so during their performances.

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<v Speaker 3>Which is interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>Scott notably has a very anti mosh approach, instead advocating

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<v Speaker 4>for skanking or circle pits, depending on the faster songs. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>but skanking is more of a form where you're kind

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<v Speaker 4>of like skip kicking, and it's never aimed at another

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<v Speaker 4>person and it's the most fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, skaking is very harmless and very whimsical looking and

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<v Speaker 1>is actually pretty fun. Yeah, if you're going to do

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<v Speaker 1>a form of dancing, and that's definitely one I would

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<v Speaker 1>be more interested in. But yeah, so, as you said,

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<v Speaker 1>there's sort of a code of ethics here, most people

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<v Speaker 1>to abide by those. There are a lot more mosh

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<v Speaker 1>pits that happen on a very regular basis and that

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<v Speaker 1>end with nobody being injured, and I definitely would advocate

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<v Speaker 1>for that, and so more power to you if that's

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<v Speaker 1>a way that you can pull this off. Interestingly, despite

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<v Speaker 1>beginning in various forms of rock music and pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>existing exclusively there for a while, it was like largely

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<v Speaker 1>confined to those types of performances for like the last

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<v Speaker 1>forty years, but apparently lately mashing has started emerging as

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<v Speaker 1>a dance form in hip hop and rap concerts as well,

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<v Speaker 1>So the trend is spreading to be more of a

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<v Speaker 1>concert going experience regardless of the type of performer who's

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<v Speaker 1>up there, which is kind of interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's really fascinating.

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<v Speaker 4>So I guess the moral story is be kind to

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<v Speaker 4>each other and mash on, like, have fun, be safe,

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<v Speaker 4>just know that there are some unspoken rules and just

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<v Speaker 4>know that there is a risk, you know. So for

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<v Speaker 4>me as a forty year old aging punk being in

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<v Speaker 4>a band or standing in the back, that.

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<v Speaker 3>Works for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>If you're younger and you have good health insurance, then

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<v Speaker 4>go ahead and get in the moshpit.

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<v Speaker 2>You should be good hopefully.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. All right, I think that's what we have to

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<v Speaker 1>say about mospitz. If you'd like to tell us your thoughts,

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<v Speaker 1>you can email us directly by writing to us at

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<v Speaker 1>info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com or reaching out to us

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<v Speaker 1>on the social media platforms, and we do look forward

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<v Speaker 1>to hearing from you. You can support us by leaving

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<v Speaker 1>us a rating and a review, give us nice five

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<v Speaker 1>or ten stars, however many stars or just the thumbs up.

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<v Speaker 1>You can tell a friend join us on Patreon. You

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<v Speaker 1>will read your name in the list of supporters at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of our full length discussions. But we got

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<v Speaker 1>to close this out because it's a mini and we're

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<v Speaker 1>right at our time. So thank you all for listening.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you to my team of people, Thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>recording with me today.

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<v Speaker 3>Shane, Hey anytime. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there anything I miss or that you would like

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<v Speaker 2>to add before we close this one out?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that covers it all right.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Abraham and this is Shane. Why We Do

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<v Speaker 2>What We Do Mini is out.

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<v Speaker 3>Bye. You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.

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<v Speaker 4>You can learn more about this and other episodes by

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<v Speaker 4>going to WWD WWD.

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<v Speaker 2>Podcas cats dot com.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome

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<v Speaker 3>day