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Amanda Howard 55 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.199 is a best selling true crime author, fiction writer, and 56 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.400 violent crimes consultant who has written nineteen books over the 57 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:59.439 past fourteen years, including ten books on a wide range 58 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.919 of true crime cases. She has also interviewed some of 59 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.599 the world's most heinous serial killers over two decades and 60 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.319 has collected a vast pool of information on various types 61 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:15.800 of killers, their motives, and rituals. In Killer Minds, Amanda 62 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:20.439 Howard investigates sixty cases a serial murder from around the world. 63 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:25.080 Using primary resources and the actual words of the serial killers. 64 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.960 Amanda reconstructs both infamous and lesser known crimes and provides 65 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.680 an insight into the minds of serial killers. The book 66 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.680 is broken into the following chapters, child Killers, Strangers We Know, 67 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:43.919 thrill Killers, Killer Kids, Poisoners, group Killers, Black Widows and 68 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.599 Parents who Kill. The book that were featuring this evening 69 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:51.560 is Killer Minds, An Insight into the Minds of serial Killers, 70 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.879 with my special guest, journalists and author Amanda Howard. Welcome 71 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:58.120 to the program and thank you very much for a 72 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.199 Greenness interview. Amanda Howard. 73 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:03.520 Hi, Dan, welcome from Australia. 74 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:07.719 Thank you very much for calling all the way from Australia. 75 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:15.479 Thank you very much. Incredible book. Let's get to a 76 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.399 little bit about why this why you wrote this book. 77 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:23.199 You talk about the purpose in the a new definition. 78 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:28.959 You say a new definition because the other definition is 79 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:32.920 far too vague to encapsulate the varying types of multiple murderers. 80 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.399 And therefore you want to show that there are many 81 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:40.560 possible subcategories that are more definitive than the all encompassing 82 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.639 term a serial killer. Tell us a little bit about that. 83 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.399 That's right, Dan, What we actually have is that everyone 84 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:51.519 thinks of the serial killer, and we think of you know, 85 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:55.079 Dahmer and Geisy and Bundy and all of these big 86 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.560 cases which are actually more of a sub species of 87 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.439 X serial killer. But as as you mentioned, my book 88 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.519 actually goes into sort of different sorts because we have 89 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:09.399 our child killers. Now, the child killers tend to sort 90 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.319 of look at a specific victim type, obviously, but the 91 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.639 way they kill children is often very different to the 92 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.879 way that Bundy killed his victims. And then we go 93 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:22.600 into the known strangers, and that's these men and and 94 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:27.040 Gasey fits into this category where they're, you know, these 95 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:32.879 high functioning, great members of the community and everyone knows 96 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:35.680 them and they're and they're great friends with everybody, but 97 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:38.560 they harbor this secret and so that gives them a 98 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:42.480 sort of different sort of subspecies as well. And then 99 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:46.399 we go into killers like the thrill killers, who, like 100 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.319 Ivan Malay, who's a local case here, they actually kill 101 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:52.920 because they just want to kill. It's not about the 102 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:57.079 sexual elements so much as about the hunting. So there's 103 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.360 a fair few killers that go into that category. Sorry. 104 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.240 Our killer kids, again, is a very different category that 105 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:06.920 I could probably actually I think I did write a 106 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.680 book on this case. But there's a lot of children 107 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:14.720 who go on to kill that tend to be due 108 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:19.160 to an arrested development and so why they kill at 109 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.800 such a young agees just a fascinating topic. And again 110 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:26.279 they're very different to our sexual killers, our poisoners. Obviously, 111 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:31.079 that's about a quick dispatch often and it's about getting 112 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:35.279 rid of people who are in their way or for 113 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.759 the pure joy of it. A couple of other sort 114 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.279 of of categories. I mean, we have our tandem killers, 115 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:43.759 and on my own podcast we do a lot of 116 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.800 these tandem killer cases because there's that fascination of that 117 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:51.959 dynamic that happens between the stronger killer and the weaker 118 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.160 killer and how they can interact and function, and how 119 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:58.720 these people come together in a type of perfect storm, 120 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:06.279 and how they can create a murderous campaign that may 121 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:08.800 not have happened if they didn't get together. And then 122 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.680 of course we have our parents who kill, which is 123 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:16.920 a very graphic topic that goes into these parents who 124 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.680 you know, like as as a parent myself, I don't understand, 125 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.079 but I try to understand how they decide that they 126 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.319 would have these babies and just continually kill them over years. 127 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.399 I mean, we had Mary Beth Tinning who just died recently, 128 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:37.120 who likely killed eight of her nine children, and it's 129 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.839 just shocking that they that they can go that far 130 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.600 and carry these babies and and just end up deciding 131 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:45.839 that that's what's going to happen within a very few 132 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:51.360 sometimes hours, sometimes days, sometimes months. But it's it's quite 133 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.360 it just it just shows that the serial killer term 134 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.439 is far too broad these days. I mean, when the 135 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:02.920 FBI started there their research, they were looking at people 136 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:06.920 like Kemper, who was very much in this very small 137 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.199 sample size. They were all the same age, most of 138 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.279 them were white, they all had pretty much for female victims, 139 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:19.160 and so it was a very concentrated sample. But since 140 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.959 that time, you know, we've seen people like Derek Todd 141 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.079 who killed across racial lines and all of this sort 142 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.680 of stuff that sort of breaks down that profile. And 143 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:31.600 I'm sorry, I'm going on. I know you've got me 144 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:35.679 talking now. Dan, I'm so sorry, but it just shows 145 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.039 that we need to sort of go into more depth 146 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.039 and break down that umbrella of the term serial killer. 147 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.559 You did have a couple issues. Before we get into 148 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.720 some incredible dramatic examples in these categories that you have 149 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.039 in this book and the sixty stories that you have featured, 150 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.639 you also talk about that you say an author of 151 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:04.159 Stevener in nineteen ninety eight that did a different classification 152 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:07.279 for serial killers, and then you say that as well, 153 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.320 that there needs to be more of a definition, you say, 154 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.559 a further definition to be able to include all kinds 155 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.200 of other killers as you do. Where is there still 156 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:22.759 some controversy we've seen in the last few years from 157 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.480 the definition. I think it's the FBI that has said 158 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.720 it from three murders adjusted down to two murders with 159 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.519 that same kind of psychopathology evident. Where is there some 160 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:40.320 controversy today about serial killing and its definition and where 161 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.399 do you in this book see a difference. 162 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.679 Well, I mean one of the first things is that 163 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:50.480 they talk about that they killed their victims in different locations. 164 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.600 So instantly Gacy doesn't see I mean, yes, he's last 165 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:59.840 three victims he dumped because his croll space was full, 166 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.559 But had it not been full, he would have continued 167 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:07.080 to kill it at his own house. So there's always 168 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.519 exceptions to the rules. So we really need to make 169 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.000 sure that we can sort of break down these classifications 170 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.559 and change it to suit various subspecies of serial killer. 171 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:22.279 Because you know, Caspolbig who is a child killer here 172 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.679 Ed Australia does not fit into the same category as 173 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:30.519 Ed Kemper who killed co eds in the nineteen seventies, 174 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.120 So we need to sort of break it down because 175 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.840 the profiles that we have are very very basic and 176 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:43.600 it and we need to sort of create these subcategories 177 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.639 where we can have the child killers, we can have 178 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:49.799 the k killer children, we can have the tandem killers, 179 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:53.039 we can have the poisoners, the black widows, and all 180 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.919 of these sorts of cases because they can't fit together. 181 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:01.279 And you know, we expect to just say serial killer 182 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.080 and we think Bundy, but we never sort of think 183 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:07.559 of Mark du Trow and other cases that we're going 184 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:14.559 to go into today. So I think there's extra sort 185 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:19.720 of profiling sections for each of these different sub subcategories. 186 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.480 Right now. In the child killers category. And we talked 187 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.639 about this beforehand, and I thought it was just me losing, 188 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.759 like I said, at my edge a little bit. But 189 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.879 you have included I can't see, absolutely have to be 190 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.000 the worst examples of child killers in the history of 191 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.519 the world. And as you and as we explained to 192 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.200 the audience, this book is a collection, so you have 193 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.840 held back some of the details, and yet this is 194 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:59.720 incredibly hard to read. Let's talk about Mark Dutrow and also, 195 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.919 just as you mentioned before the show, tell us about 196 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.039 the research done to be able to write about Mark 197 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:12.240 du trou and what that research meant in terms of 198 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:14.720 your health. 199 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.039 Well, Mark de Trow, I actually wrote a book a 200 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.960 few years ago called Predators, and the Detro case was 201 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.000 one that I thought, oh, yeah, he killed a couple 202 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.120 of kids, I'll add him in, and then once I 203 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:35.919 started researching the case. Now Mark Dutrow was incarcerated for 204 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:41.320 only five victims, though there's a bit of controversy even 205 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:44.840 about that. But going into this case, what they found 206 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.399 was he was likely a small fish in a very 207 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.480 very big pond. This massive pedophile ring that was happening 208 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.320 in Belgium at the time that actually went all the 209 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:02.360 way to royalty. There was judges involved, police call parliamentary members. 210 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:07.279 It was this massive rotten underbelly of Belgium and they 211 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.759 actually put out a call for people who believed that 212 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.879 they were victims of this pedophile ring to come forward 213 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.840 and give their statements. So what I read during that 214 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:23.159 is some of the most horrific graphic detail that I 215 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:27.559 have ever I couldn't have even imagined it. There is 216 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.240 evidence of young girls, babies, and they killed the babies 217 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.279 as they're born. Like I mean, we are talking graphic, 218 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:42.679 horrific stuff, including photographs of children in submissive poses and 219 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.559 sexually explicit s and m and all of this sort 220 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.159 of horrific stuff that I threw my laptop across the 221 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:53.240 room and stopped writing. It sent me to a therapist. 222 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:57.159 I couldn't cope with what I had just seen and read. 223 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:01.960 I mean, as authors to keep a distance, but sometimes 224 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.000 the darkness does get in. And I had a young 225 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:10.120 daughter at the time she's now a teenager, but at 226 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.360 the time that there was one picture of this one 227 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.559 little girl who looked like her, and it just broke me, 228 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.120 and I thought, why am I doing this? What's going on? 229 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:23.399 I've just read the most horrific stuff. That these people 230 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:28.360 are evil. There's nothing worse than the information that I read. 231 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.159 That I had to go and see a therapist. I 232 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.159 had to stop writing, I had to leave it alone. 233 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.679 The publisher didn't really like that, but they had to 234 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:40.639 deal with that. But it was about me realizing that 235 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:47.960 though we think that we can keep a distance, were 236 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.200 human and we need to be able to feel that 237 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.240 these emotions and these poor victims and these girls who 238 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.360 are now in their thirties and forties, and what they 239 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.320 went through and the torture and what they saw and 240 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.039 being passed around all of these pedophile groups, and and 241 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.360 you know, it involved their parents and their grandparents and 242 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.240 all of this sort of horrific detail that I read 243 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.360 that I couldn't put in the book. It's just it's 244 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:19.120 it's just too horrific. But it just sort of created 245 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:24.360 this this feeling in me that there's evil and then 246 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.440 there's those that are beyond evil. And it was a 247 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.480 tough case to get through. I eventually did return to 248 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.919 the book, and Mark de Trow then also appears in 249 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:38.279 Killer Minds as well, But it's just it's a case 250 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:43.320 that will always be up there with just a few 251 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.799 others that created nightmares for me. And you know, we 252 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.559 go to bed and we try and think about the 253 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.360 nice things and think about our families, but there's some 254 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.519 cases that do get in and Mark t Trow was 255 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:55.039 one of them. 256 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.919 I hate to ask some questions about that case after that, 257 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:06.200 but that don't go into too much graphic depots. Like 258 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.159 I say, is this story to me, as I mentioned 259 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.759 to you, is some stories really are visual and I 260 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:19.440 can really visualize them because they are so incredibly movie 261 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.279 esque in my mind. And that means somewhat, if not 262 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.919 almost completely like a horror movie plot. And I've seen 263 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.559 a lot of horror movies when i was a kid, 264 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.600 So this stuff is of the true murder, true horror variety. 265 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.159 You talk about this, we won't get into his early life. 266 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.320 Everybody says they had horrible things happened to them when 267 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.759 they were young. But needless to say, when he was 268 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.759 twenty years old, he was married, he had a couple sons, 269 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.200 and then he was divorced and she claimed horrific spousal 270 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.720 violence and sexual abuse of the children. At that point, 271 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.440 he had an affair with this Michelle Martin, and it 272 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:05.960 became a second wife. Correct. He used to have a 273 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.480 white van, and we talk about he starts stocking children 274 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:14.960 at swimming centers around Belgium in his white van. Who 275 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.599 was just to outline the horror of this story and 276 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.359 why it's it's so horrific, is can you tell us 277 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.960 who is in company? Who who is in company with 278 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.440 when he does this? And then introduced some of the 279 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.880 couple of his friends that that he is associated with. 280 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.559 We talked, You talked about and alluded to the pedophile ring, 281 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.480 But how does it start with these four members? 282 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:44.160 As you said, there is fourth so his his wife Michelle, 283 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.559 actually becomes part of this gang and she was often 284 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:50.680 used as a rooster to get a lot lot of 285 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:54.359 the girls towards the the van. You know, she would 286 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.319 do like we know Carla Malka did it in Canada, 287 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.400 asked the direction and in these children always were happy 288 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:05.759 to help, and so they would get them towards the van. 289 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:11.319 And in the van was Michelle. I'm going to stuff 290 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.839 this name. I'm sorry, it's the Levee, which is a 291 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.519 French surname. I'm sure that you would probably do a 292 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:22.440 better van. And he was actually a main partner to Detroux, 293 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:25.240 and the two of them would do a lot more. 294 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.839 And there was a few others that helped, including a 295 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.400 guy called Weinstein who ended up being a victim of 296 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.359 Detro's because he was boasting to people and everything, and 297 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.039 so Mark de Trow actually killed him, so he is 298 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.599 one of his victims, which sort of confuses that serah 299 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.279 killer term again because his chosen victims were females. But 300 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.400 he did kill one of his companions, and there was 301 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:53.279 other people involved that were important members of society, and 302 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:58.960 so they would grab the girls, they would tie them 303 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.680 up in the van and sexually assault them and often 304 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.119 dump them. And they did this for years and years 305 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.519 and years until they decided to make it a bit 306 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.759 more of a permanent arrangement. And what they did was 307 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:12.960 Marc de Trunt to one of his homes, and he 308 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:17.759 had multiple homes, and he was unemployed, and people knew 309 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:19.640 that he had all these homes, and he had all 310 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.359 of this construction equipment and big giant excavators and all 311 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.160 of this stuff. No one questioned it, which sort of 312 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:28.799 suggested that people knew what was going on because they 313 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.799 were members of the police and all of this that 314 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.200 were involved, that they just turned a blind eye. And 315 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:41.799 what happened was that he actually abducted to eight year 316 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.400 old girls, so Julie le Legen and Melissa Rousseau. I'm 317 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.680 sorry about the pronunciation of some of these names, and 318 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.359 he took them back to his home in Belgium and 319 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.359 they produced videos and all of this sexual assault of 320 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.400 these two eight year old girls. Now, how how they 321 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.519 actually died was Datrow actually went to jail for car theft, 322 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.519 and he told his wife to keep them alive, and 323 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.599 she was too scared to go into the dungeon to 324 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.599 feed them, and so they ended up starving to death. 325 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.000 So it's just absolutely horrific what those two little eight 326 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.279 year old girls went through. And I read the case 327 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:25.480 file and it's pretty horrific what their last couple of 328 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:31.000 months of life were like. Yeah, but going on from there, 329 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:36.440 they actually le Lev and Datrow actually then arrest abducted 330 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:39.880 Anne Marchelle and Effie Lambrex. Now they were eighteen year 331 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.640 old girls, but they looked a lot younger, and so 332 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.599 it was almost an accidental abduction because they wanted younger girls. 333 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.119 And so they were kept for only a very short time, 334 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.119 and then they were drugged and buried alive, and they 335 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.759 were buried beside win steam because he had sort of 336 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.240 stuffed up with your reduction of those two girls so gone. 337 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.960 So it's actually quite shocking, but that they were kept 338 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.599 for a short time. And then in I think it 339 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:17.119 was nineteen ninety six, Dutrow ended up kidnapping Sabine Zaden, 340 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.400 who was a twelve year old girl. And there was 341 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.400 a big outcry about that there was girls being abducted 342 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.680 and this girl had disappeared, and she was actually gone 343 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.400 for quite some time and they kept looking for them, 344 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.200 and police had actually been Todtro's house several times in 345 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.559 it had heard children crying out asking for help, but 346 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:39.000 they could never find them because the way that they 347 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:43.440 were hidden in these dungeons, which are very much like 348 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.440 the Fritzel case in Austria a couple of years ago, 349 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.799 that these these doors, they were hidden behind shelving and 350 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:53.400 all of this sort of stuff, so though they could 351 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.079 hear them, knew that they were there, they didn't find 352 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.680 them and didn't keep trying to find them, so that 353 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:00.960 they could have probably saved the first two girls and 354 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:05.559 then saved the others. But thankfully Sabine and there was 355 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:09.839 an another girl that was abducted just before they were captured, 356 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:15.839 Letitia dell Has, and they were kept and raped repeatedly 357 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:21.920 during their captive period. But then the press and the 358 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.559 public had caused such a great outcry that they knew 359 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:29.200 where to find them because someone had seen the spooky 360 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.599 white band when he had abducted Letitia, so they were 361 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.799 able to go and get them within a couple of 362 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:40.720 weeks of her abduction. So the last two girls did survive, 363 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.240 and both of them spoke out at length at the 364 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:47.079 trial of de Troux, who went on with the whole arm, 365 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:51.359 just a small fish pedophile group. But Sabine and Letitia 366 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:54.759 said that they only were raped by him, and so 367 00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:00.000 that's where the trial went, and they refused to investigate further. 368 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.680 There was a judge that wanted it to go higher, 369 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.880 and that's where all of the witness testimony come from, 370 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.759 all these other victims. But he was actually sacked and 371 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.519 told to not look into this and to leave it alone. 372 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:17.000 And so only datrou and his gang of Michelle Martin 373 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:21.440 and Michelle Lealev went to prison for these cases. 374 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.240 You see too. Millions of Belgians watched on like TV 375 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:26.559 the sentencing. 376 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.279 Yes, and then there was a massive outcry. It was 377 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.359 called the white March. They all dressed in white and 378 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.319 had white balloons to sort of represent all of the 379 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.960 victims of Detroux and of the disgusting mess that was 380 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.680 happening in Belgium at the time, because names were being 381 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.519 thrown around. As I said, went into the royal family, 382 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.640 and there is this one person in the royal family 383 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:55.640 that they know was very important in his pedophile ring, 384 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:01.400 but he's never going to be charged. Were incarcerated for this, 385 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.200 but the Belgium, the Belgium people tried to have it 386 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:09.640 changed and fixed, and they did a lot, but it 387 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.000 just come down to this small group of four people 388 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:17.279 and only three were incarcerated, and Michelle Martin is actually 389 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:23.319 out of prison now. But it's they knew something was 390 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.160 happening and that there was too many rumors for there 391 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.319 not to be evidence, but it was just shut down. 392 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.599 But I mean, a lot of the information is online. 393 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.559 You can actually look up the ex dossiers and read 394 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.920 these transcripts of these interviews with these girls who now 395 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:45.480 at thirty and forty what they had experienced, as you know, 396 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:50.359 three four, five, fifteen year olds. It's just been horrific. 397 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:54.599 But no one, no one went into it. And actually 398 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:59.599 one of the victims who spoke out, Regina, loof people 399 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:03.680 went on news programs and current affairs shows to actually 400 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.240 discredit her and just say, honor, she's a crazy crack 401 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:08.519