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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Amanda Howard
Speaker 5: is a best selling true crime author, fiction writer, and
Speaker 5: violent crimes consultant who has written nineteen books over the
Speaker 5: past fourteen years, including ten books on a wide range
Speaker 5: of true crime cases. She has also interviewed some of
Speaker 5: the world's most heinous serial killers over two decades and
Speaker 5: has collected a vast pool of information on various types
Speaker 5: of killers, their motives, and rituals. In Killer Minds, Amanda
Speaker 5: Howard investigates sixty cases a serial murder from around the world.
Speaker 5: Using primary resources and the actual words of the serial killers.
Speaker 5: Amanda reconstructs both infamous and lesser known crimes and provides
Speaker 5: an insight into the minds of serial killers. The book
Speaker 5: is broken into the following chapters, child Killers, Strangers We Know,
Speaker 5: thrill Killers, Killer Kids, Poisoners, group Killers, Black Widows and
Speaker 5: Parents who Kill. The book that were featuring this evening
Speaker 5: is Killer Minds, An Insight into the Minds of serial Killers,
Speaker 5: with my special guest, journalists and author Amanda Howard. Welcome
Speaker 5: to the program and thank you very much for a
Speaker 5: Greenness interview. Amanda Howard.
Speaker 2: Hi, Dan, welcome from Australia.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for calling all the way from Australia.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. Incredible book. Let's get to a
Speaker 6: little bit about why this why you wrote this book.
Speaker 6: You talk about the purpose in the a new definition.
Speaker 6: You say a new definition because the other definition is
Speaker 6: far too vague to encapsulate the varying types of multiple murderers.
Speaker 6: And therefore you want to show that there are many
Speaker 6: possible subcategories that are more definitive than the all encompassing
Speaker 6: term a serial killer. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: That's right, Dan, What we actually have is that everyone
Speaker 2: thinks of the serial killer, and we think of you know,
Speaker 2: Dahmer and Geisy and Bundy and all of these big
Speaker 2: cases which are actually more of a sub species of
Speaker 2: X serial killer. But as as you mentioned, my book
Speaker 2: actually goes into sort of different sorts because we have
Speaker 2: our child killers. Now, the child killers tend to sort
Speaker 2: of look at a specific victim type, obviously, but the
Speaker 2: way they kill children is often very different to the
Speaker 2: way that Bundy killed his victims. And then we go
Speaker 2: into the known strangers, and that's these men and and
Speaker 2: Gasey fits into this category where they're, you know, these
Speaker 2: high functioning, great members of the community and everyone knows
Speaker 2: them and they're and they're great friends with everybody, but
Speaker 2: they harbor this secret and so that gives them a
Speaker 2: sort of different sort of subspecies as well. And then
Speaker 2: we go into killers like the thrill killers, who, like
Speaker 2: Ivan Malay, who's a local case here, they actually kill
Speaker 2: because they just want to kill. It's not about the
Speaker 2: sexual elements so much as about the hunting. So there's
Speaker 2: a fair few killers that go into that category. Sorry.
Speaker 2: Our killer kids, again, is a very different category that
Speaker 2: I could probably actually I think I did write a
Speaker 2: book on this case. But there's a lot of children
Speaker 2: who go on to kill that tend to be due
Speaker 2: to an arrested development and so why they kill at
Speaker 2: such a young agees just a fascinating topic. And again
Speaker 2: they're very different to our sexual killers, our poisoners. Obviously,
Speaker 2: that's about a quick dispatch often and it's about getting
Speaker 2: rid of people who are in their way or for
Speaker 2: the pure joy of it. A couple of other sort
Speaker 2: of of categories. I mean, we have our tandem killers,
Speaker 2: and on my own podcast we do a lot of
Speaker 2: these tandem killer cases because there's that fascination of that
Speaker 2: dynamic that happens between the stronger killer and the weaker
Speaker 2: killer and how they can interact and function, and how
Speaker 2: these people come together in a type of perfect storm,
Speaker 2: and how they can create a murderous campaign that may
Speaker 2: not have happened if they didn't get together. And then
Speaker 2: of course we have our parents who kill, which is
Speaker 2: a very graphic topic that goes into these parents who
Speaker 2: you know, like as as a parent myself, I don't understand,
Speaker 2: but I try to understand how they decide that they
Speaker 2: would have these babies and just continually kill them over years.
Speaker 2: I mean, we had Mary Beth Tinning who just died recently,
Speaker 2: who likely killed eight of her nine children, and it's
Speaker 2: just shocking that they that they can go that far
Speaker 2: and carry these babies and and just end up deciding
Speaker 2: that that's what's going to happen within a very few
Speaker 2: sometimes hours, sometimes days, sometimes months. But it's it's quite
Speaker 2: it just it just shows that the serial killer term
Speaker 2: is far too broad these days. I mean, when the
Speaker 2: FBI started there their research, they were looking at people
Speaker 2: like Kemper, who was very much in this very small
Speaker 2: sample size. They were all the same age, most of
Speaker 2: them were white, they all had pretty much for female victims,
Speaker 2: and so it was a very concentrated sample. But since
Speaker 2: that time, you know, we've seen people like Derek Todd
Speaker 2: who killed across racial lines and all of this sort
Speaker 2: of stuff that sort of breaks down that profile. And
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm going on. I know you've got me
Speaker 2: talking now. Dan, I'm so sorry, but it just shows
Speaker 2: that we need to sort of go into more depth
Speaker 2: and break down that umbrella of the term serial killer.
Speaker 6: You did have a couple issues. Before we get into
Speaker 6: some incredible dramatic examples in these categories that you have
Speaker 6: in this book and the sixty stories that you have featured,
Speaker 6: you also talk about that you say an author of
Speaker 6: Stevener in nineteen ninety eight that did a different classification
Speaker 6: for serial killers, and then you say that as well,
Speaker 6: that there needs to be more of a definition, you say,
Speaker 6: a further definition to be able to include all kinds
Speaker 6: of other killers as you do. Where is there still
Speaker 6: some controversy we've seen in the last few years from
Speaker 6: the definition. I think it's the FBI that has said
Speaker 6: it from three murders adjusted down to two murders with
Speaker 6: that same kind of psychopathology evident. Where is there some
Speaker 6: controversy today about serial killing and its definition and where
Speaker 6: do you in this book see a difference.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean one of the first things is that
Speaker 2: they talk about that they killed their victims in different locations.
Speaker 2: So instantly Gacy doesn't see I mean, yes, he's last
Speaker 2: three victims he dumped because his croll space was full,
Speaker 2: But had it not been full, he would have continued
Speaker 2: to kill it at his own house. So there's always
Speaker 2: exceptions to the rules. So we really need to make
Speaker 2: sure that we can sort of break down these classifications
Speaker 2: and change it to suit various subspecies of serial killer.
Speaker 2: Because you know, Caspolbig who is a child killer here
Speaker 2: Ed Australia does not fit into the same category as
Speaker 2: Ed Kemper who killed co eds in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: So we need to sort of break it down because
Speaker 2: the profiles that we have are very very basic and
Speaker 2: it and we need to sort of create these subcategories
Speaker 2: where we can have the child killers, we can have
Speaker 2: the k killer children, we can have the tandem killers,
Speaker 2: we can have the poisoners, the black widows, and all
Speaker 2: of these sorts of cases because they can't fit together.
Speaker 2: And you know, we expect to just say serial killer
Speaker 2: and we think Bundy, but we never sort of think
Speaker 2: of Mark du Trow and other cases that we're going
Speaker 2: to go into today. So I think there's extra sort
Speaker 2: of profiling sections for each of these different sub subcategories.
Speaker 6: Right now. In the child killers category. And we talked
Speaker 6: about this beforehand, and I thought it was just me losing,
Speaker 6: like I said, at my edge a little bit. But
Speaker 6: you have included I can't see, absolutely have to be
Speaker 6: the worst examples of child killers in the history of
Speaker 6: the world. And as you and as we explained to
Speaker 6: the audience, this book is a collection, so you have
Speaker 6: held back some of the details, and yet this is
Speaker 6: incredibly hard to read. Let's talk about Mark Dutrow and also,
Speaker 6: just as you mentioned before the show, tell us about
Speaker 6: the research done to be able to write about Mark
Speaker 6: du trou and what that research meant in terms of
Speaker 6: your health.
Speaker 2: Well, Mark de Trow, I actually wrote a book a
Speaker 2: few years ago called Predators, and the Detro case was
Speaker 2: one that I thought, oh, yeah, he killed a couple
Speaker 2: of kids, I'll add him in, and then once I
Speaker 2: started researching the case. Now Mark Dutrow was incarcerated for
Speaker 2: only five victims, though there's a bit of controversy even
Speaker 2: about that. But going into this case, what they found
Speaker 2: was he was likely a small fish in a very
Speaker 2: very big pond. This massive pedophile ring that was happening
Speaker 2: in Belgium at the time that actually went all the
Speaker 2: way to royalty. There was judges involved, police call parliamentary members.
Speaker 2: It was this massive rotten underbelly of Belgium and they
Speaker 2: actually put out a call for people who believed that
Speaker 2: they were victims of this pedophile ring to come forward
Speaker 2: and give their statements. So what I read during that
Speaker 2: is some of the most horrific graphic detail that I
Speaker 2: have ever I couldn't have even imagined it. There is
Speaker 2: evidence of young girls, babies, and they killed the babies
Speaker 2: as they're born. Like I mean, we are talking graphic,
Speaker 2: horrific stuff, including photographs of children in submissive poses and
Speaker 2: sexually explicit s and m and all of this sort
Speaker 2: of horrific stuff that I threw my laptop across the
Speaker 2: room and stopped writing. It sent me to a therapist.
Speaker 2: I couldn't cope with what I had just seen and read.
Speaker 2: I mean, as authors to keep a distance, but sometimes
Speaker 2: the darkness does get in. And I had a young
Speaker 2: daughter at the time she's now a teenager, but at
Speaker 2: the time that there was one picture of this one
Speaker 2: little girl who looked like her, and it just broke me,
Speaker 2: and I thought, why am I doing this? What's going on?
Speaker 2: I've just read the most horrific stuff. That these people
Speaker 2: are evil. There's nothing worse than the information that I read.
Speaker 2: That I had to go and see a therapist. I
Speaker 2: had to stop writing, I had to leave it alone.
Speaker 2: The publisher didn't really like that, but they had to
Speaker 2: deal with that. But it was about me realizing that
Speaker 2: though we think that we can keep a distance, were
Speaker 2: human and we need to be able to feel that
Speaker 2: these emotions and these poor victims and these girls who
Speaker 2: are now in their thirties and forties, and what they
Speaker 2: went through and the torture and what they saw and
Speaker 2: being passed around all of these pedophile groups, and and
Speaker 2: you know, it involved their parents and their grandparents and
Speaker 2: all of this sort of horrific detail that I read
Speaker 2: that I couldn't put in the book. It's just it's
Speaker 2: it's just too horrific. But it just sort of created
Speaker 2: this this feeling in me that there's evil and then
Speaker 2: there's those that are beyond evil. And it was a
Speaker 2: tough case to get through. I eventually did return to
Speaker 2: the book, and Mark de Trow then also appears in
Speaker 2: Killer Minds as well, But it's just it's a case
Speaker 2: that will always be up there with just a few
Speaker 2: others that created nightmares for me. And you know, we
Speaker 2: go to bed and we try and think about the
Speaker 2: nice things and think about our families, but there's some
Speaker 2: cases that do get in and Mark t Trow was
Speaker 2: one of them.
Speaker 6: I hate to ask some questions about that case after that,
Speaker 6: but that don't go into too much graphic depots. Like
Speaker 6: I say, is this story to me, as I mentioned
Speaker 6: to you, is some stories really are visual and I
Speaker 6: can really visualize them because they are so incredibly movie
Speaker 6: esque in my mind. And that means somewhat, if not
Speaker 6: almost completely like a horror movie plot. And I've seen
Speaker 6: a lot of horror movies when i was a kid,
Speaker 6: So this stuff is of the true murder, true horror variety.
Speaker 6: You talk about this, we won't get into his early life.
Speaker 6: Everybody says they had horrible things happened to them when
Speaker 6: they were young. But needless to say, when he was
Speaker 6: twenty years old, he was married, he had a couple sons,
Speaker 6: and then he was divorced and she claimed horrific spousal
Speaker 6: violence and sexual abuse of the children. At that point,
Speaker 6: he had an affair with this Michelle Martin, and it
Speaker 6: became a second wife. Correct. He used to have a
Speaker 6: white van, and we talk about he starts stocking children
Speaker 6: at swimming centers around Belgium in his white van. Who
Speaker 6: was just to outline the horror of this story and
Speaker 6: why it's it's so horrific, is can you tell us
Speaker 6: who is in company? Who who is in company with
Speaker 6: when he does this? And then introduced some of the
Speaker 6: couple of his friends that that he is associated with.
Speaker 6: We talked, You talked about and alluded to the pedophile ring,
Speaker 6: But how does it start with these four members?
Speaker 2: As you said, there is fourth so his his wife Michelle,
Speaker 2: actually becomes part of this gang and she was often
Speaker 2: used as a rooster to get a lot lot of
Speaker 2: the girls towards the the van. You know, she would
Speaker 2: do like we know Carla Malka did it in Canada,
Speaker 2: asked the direction and in these children always were happy
Speaker 2: to help, and so they would get them towards the van.
Speaker 2: And in the van was Michelle. I'm going to stuff
Speaker 2: this name. I'm sorry, it's the Levee, which is a
Speaker 2: French surname. I'm sure that you would probably do a
Speaker 2: better van. And he was actually a main partner to Detroux,
Speaker 2: and the two of them would do a lot more.
Speaker 2: And there was a few others that helped, including a
Speaker 2: guy called Weinstein who ended up being a victim of
Speaker 2: Detro's because he was boasting to people and everything, and
Speaker 2: so Mark de Trow actually killed him, so he is
Speaker 2: one of his victims, which sort of confuses that serah
Speaker 2: killer term again because his chosen victims were females. But
Speaker 2: he did kill one of his companions, and there was
Speaker 2: other people involved that were important members of society, and
Speaker 2: so they would grab the girls, they would tie them
Speaker 2: up in the van and sexually assault them and often
Speaker 2: dump them. And they did this for years and years
Speaker 2: and years until they decided to make it a bit
Speaker 2: more of a permanent arrangement. And what they did was
Speaker 2: Marc de Trunt to one of his homes, and he
Speaker 2: had multiple homes, and he was unemployed, and people knew
Speaker 2: that he had all these homes, and he had all
Speaker 2: of this construction equipment and big giant excavators and all
Speaker 2: of this stuff. No one questioned it, which sort of
Speaker 2: suggested that people knew what was going on because they
Speaker 2: were members of the police and all of this that
Speaker 2: were involved, that they just turned a blind eye. And
Speaker 2: what happened was that he actually abducted to eight year
Speaker 2: old girls, so Julie le Legen and Melissa Rousseau. I'm
Speaker 2: sorry about the pronunciation of some of these names, and
Speaker 2: he took them back to his home in Belgium and
Speaker 2: they produced videos and all of this sexual assault of
Speaker 2: these two eight year old girls. Now, how how they
Speaker 2: actually died was Datrow actually went to jail for car theft,
Speaker 2: and he told his wife to keep them alive, and
Speaker 2: she was too scared to go into the dungeon to
Speaker 2: feed them, and so they ended up starving to death.
Speaker 2: So it's just absolutely horrific what those two little eight
Speaker 2: year old girls went through. And I read the case
Speaker 2: file and it's pretty horrific what their last couple of
Speaker 2: months of life were like. Yeah, but going on from there,
Speaker 2: they actually le Lev and Datrow actually then arrest abducted
Speaker 2: Anne Marchelle and Effie Lambrex. Now they were eighteen year
Speaker 2: old girls, but they looked a lot younger, and so
Speaker 2: it was almost an accidental abduction because they wanted younger girls.
Speaker 2: And so they were kept for only a very short time,
Speaker 2: and then they were drugged and buried alive, and they
Speaker 2: were buried beside win steam because he had sort of
Speaker 2: stuffed up with your reduction of those two girls so gone.
Speaker 2: So it's actually quite shocking, but that they were kept
Speaker 2: for a short time. And then in I think it
Speaker 2: was nineteen ninety six, Dutrow ended up kidnapping Sabine Zaden,
Speaker 2: who was a twelve year old girl. And there was
Speaker 2: a big outcry about that there was girls being abducted
Speaker 2: and this girl had disappeared, and she was actually gone
Speaker 2: for quite some time and they kept looking for them,
Speaker 2: and police had actually been Todtro's house several times in
Speaker 2: it had heard children crying out asking for help, but
Speaker 2: they could never find them because the way that they
Speaker 2: were hidden in these dungeons, which are very much like
Speaker 2: the Fritzel case in Austria a couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: that these these doors, they were hidden behind shelving and
Speaker 2: all of this sort of stuff, so though they could
Speaker 2: hear them, knew that they were there, they didn't find
Speaker 2: them and didn't keep trying to find them, so that
Speaker 2: they could have probably saved the first two girls and
Speaker 2: then saved the others. But thankfully Sabine and there was
Speaker 2: an another girl that was abducted just before they were captured,
Speaker 2: Letitia dell Has, and they were kept and raped repeatedly
Speaker 2: during their captive period. But then the press and the
Speaker 2: public had caused such a great outcry that they knew
Speaker 2: where to find them because someone had seen the spooky
Speaker 2: white band when he had abducted Letitia, so they were
Speaker 2: able to go and get them within a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks of her abduction. So the last two girls did survive,
Speaker 2: and both of them spoke out at length at the
Speaker 2: trial of de Troux, who went on with the whole arm,
Speaker 2: just a small fish pedophile group. But Sabine and Letitia
Speaker 2: said that they only were raped by him, and so
Speaker 2: that's where the trial went, and they refused to investigate further.
Speaker 2: There was a judge that wanted it to go higher,
Speaker 2: and that's where all of the witness testimony come from,
Speaker 2: all these other victims. But he was actually sacked and
Speaker 2: told to not look into this and to leave it alone.
Speaker 2: And so only datrou and his gang of Michelle Martin
Speaker 2: and Michelle Lealev went to prison for these cases.
Speaker 6: You see too. Millions of Belgians watched on like TV
Speaker 6: the sentencing.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then there was a massive outcry. It was
Speaker 2: called the white March. They all dressed in white and
Speaker 2: had white balloons to sort of represent all of the
Speaker 2: victims of Detroux and of the disgusting mess that was
Speaker 2: happening in Belgium at the time, because names were being
Speaker 2: thrown around. As I said, went into the royal family,
Speaker 2: and there is this one person in the royal family
Speaker 2: that they know was very important in his pedophile ring,
Speaker 2: but he's never going to be charged. Were incarcerated for this,
Speaker 2: but the Belgium, the Belgium people tried to have it
Speaker 2: changed and fixed, and they did a lot, but it
Speaker 2: just come down to this small group of four people
Speaker 2: and only three were incarcerated, and Michelle Martin is actually
Speaker 2: out of prison now. But it's they knew something was
Speaker 2: happening and that there was too many rumors for there
Speaker 2: not to be evidence, but it was just shut down.
Speaker 2: But I mean, a lot of the information is online.
Speaker 2: You can actually look up the ex dossiers and read
Speaker 2: these transcripts of these interviews with these girls who now
Speaker 2: at thirty and forty what they had experienced, as you know,
Speaker 2: three four, five, fifteen year olds. It's just been horrific.
Speaker 2: But no one, no one went into it. And actually
Speaker 2: one of the victims who spoke out, Regina, loof people
Speaker 2: went on news programs and current affairs shows to actually
Speaker 2: discredit her and just say, honor, she's a crazy crack
Speaker 2: pot and this didn't happen. That didn't happen. But she
Speaker 2: was able to take people to the places where these
Speaker 2: things happened, where bones were found and blood splatter was
Speaker 2: found and everything, and they still chose to ignore her case.
Speaker 6: You talk about some of the outrage with that was
Speaker 6: there outrage We talk about judicial systems in the US
Speaker 6: and Canada, Australia, UK different in Belgium. Was their outrage
Speaker 6: to the sentences because you see, Michelle Martin didn't do
Speaker 6: any time or was released because he had to care
Speaker 6: for her child. And then this Michelle Neel I probably
Speaker 6: didn't pronounce that properly. He was acquitted of all charges,
Speaker 6: but he did get five years for drug related charges,
Speaker 6: so he escaped from charges essentially two of this again
Speaker 6: seemed like a big pedophile group, but only a few
Speaker 6: people convicted and those sentences. Was there outrage at that leniency,
Speaker 6: at those sentences or any of those decisions.
Speaker 2: Well, there was a little bit, but there was more
Speaker 2: outrage that de Troux was allowed to go to the
Speaker 2: law library by himself during the trial and after the
Speaker 2: trial to look at appealing his case, and was able
Speaker 2: to walk out of prison and escape for quite a
Speaker 2: few weeks. I mean, this guy was so protected that
Speaker 2: he had such freedoms, and even now he's actually he's
Speaker 2: been contacting the families of his victims claiming that he
Speaker 2: wants to apologize, hoping that it will let him out
Speaker 2: of prison. I mean, he's only been in prison for
Speaker 2: about twenty years and he wants out. And I mean
Speaker 2: the judge that was digging into this case, he was
Speaker 2: sacked purely because he had a dinner with the victims'
Speaker 2: families and they said, oh no, no, this is instantly
Speaker 2: a conflict of interest. You can't look into this case.
Speaker 2: And they've brought in someone who just basically just washed
Speaker 2: the case away and said, yeah, Mark the Trow's guilty,
Speaker 2: go to prison, go away everyone else. So, I mean,
Speaker 2: everyone knew that there was corruption involved. Even a million
Speaker 2: people marching in the streets wasn't enough to change the
Speaker 2: outcome or to create enough buzz to make them fight
Speaker 2: this further and to get the real ring leaders involved,
Speaker 2: because I mean, it's still going on. And that's the
Speaker 2: scary part. Mark de Trow might be in prison, but
Speaker 2: this pedophile ring is still going on.
Speaker 6: That is incredible. Let's talk about another you sub then
Speaker 6: you break things down into sub categories and you say
Speaker 6: non strangers versus the unknown stringer or the stranger I
Speaker 6: should say serial killer? Why that? Why that.
Speaker 2: Distinction?
Speaker 7: Sorry, no, that's okay, because we have these people that
Speaker 7: we were always led to believe that serial killers are
Speaker 7: these scary you know, monsters with a limp and a
Speaker 7: scar and all of this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: But they're actually very much a part of our community.
Speaker 2: But we have those who take the opportunity to just
Speaker 2: grab someone off off the street and take them. So
Speaker 2: they're our stranger killings that they're the ones who see
Speaker 2: the opportunity and take it, whereas the known strangers like
Speaker 2: John Wyne Gacy and Dean Call, they're members of the
Speaker 2: community and people actually flock to them, and so to
Speaker 2: procure that they're victims, both Gaycy and Call used younger
Speaker 2: boys to actually entice people to their house, and they
Speaker 2: would often go a couple of times before they were
Speaker 2: actually killed, so they got to know their victims, and
Speaker 2: their victims got to know their killer before everything ended
Speaker 2: up terrifically wrong. So that's the distinction there. So it's
Speaker 2: about building relationships where they're victims. It might just be
Speaker 2: a few hours, but often Gaycy or Call would actually
Speaker 2: have people come to their home and you know, and
Speaker 2: they'd smoke weed for a while and they'd watch Porno's
Speaker 2: or play a couple of games of pool. So it
Speaker 2: wasn't about getting them in the house and attacking and
Speaker 2: killing them, whereas the stranger killings often do that. They
Speaker 2: actually go and grab a victim, take them home, and
Speaker 2: they're dead pretty quickly, often after sort of a shortened
Speaker 2: period of torture. These known strangers take that time and
Speaker 2: they're able to create an environment where they're comfortable enough
Speaker 2: to do the killings. Dean Call used to so Brooks
Speaker 2: and Henley to entice some of the teenage boys to
Speaker 2: come to his home in Houston and they would play
Speaker 2: pool for a while and they'd get drunk. And you know,
Speaker 2: teenage boys'd be happy to do that. I mean, most
Speaker 2: teenagers want to go and get drunk, and so that's
Speaker 2: what what would happen, is that they would go and
Speaker 2: party until they would often wake up tied to Dean
Speaker 2: Call's torture board, and then that they'd be sodomized, they'd
Speaker 2: be beaten, they'd be tortured, and then that they'd be
Speaker 2: killed and buried in a boat shed that he'd hired.
Speaker 2: So it's very different to the opportunitnistic killers that we have.
Speaker 2: And this is how these sorts of known strangers like
Speaker 2: Gacy and Call get up to Dean Cole had twenty
Speaker 2: eight victims and Gaycy had thirt thirty three, and this
Speaker 2: is how they do it because Dankole had a local
Speaker 2: candy business and people knew him and he was part
Speaker 2: of the society. He was a veteran, and it was
Speaker 2: just Noah would have suspected him. So this is how
Speaker 2: he was able to get to at least twenty eight victims.
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Speaker 6: use my code murder. You were talking about Dan Coral
Speaker 6: and such an incredible example of your known stranger classification
Speaker 6: for serial killers. Let's talk more about Dan Coral and
Speaker 6: you mentioned his accomplices Brooks and Henley. When we spoke
Speaker 6: for the program, you mentioned that you had been in
Speaker 6: correspondence with this Henley. Explain that before we go more
Speaker 6: into and dive into the story of being Coral or
Speaker 6: the Candyman.
Speaker 2: Well, Dwayne Henley was actually meant to be a victim.
Speaker 2: He was recruited by David Brooks, who had been enticing
Speaker 2: victims to calls home since the age of twelve. Now,
Speaker 2: Henley was just a young teenager when he was brought
Speaker 2: to the home, and he ended up being a better
Speaker 2: accomplice than Brooks was, who was starting to get old.
Speaker 2: So col began using Henley as his carried on the
Speaker 2: end into the stick to get other victims in. Henley's
Speaker 2: been in prison since the late nineteen sixties, and he
Speaker 2: was seventeen then, so do the math. He's quite old
Speaker 2: now and he has spent his entire adult life in
Speaker 2: prison as an a Now, though we don't feel sympathy
Speaker 2: for these people who murder children or kill anyone, but
Speaker 2: you have to wonder if there's something there that even
Speaker 2: at seventeen, Henley was under duress from Call. And there's
Speaker 2: as I said, that you can't be said sympathetic, but
Speaker 2: you have to wonder that he was just a pawn
Speaker 2: in Call's game. And you know, he has spent all
Speaker 2: of this time in prisons as an accomplice to a
Speaker 2: horrific serial killer. And I don't know if a lifelong
Speaker 2: sentence was the right sentence in this case. I believe
Speaker 2: that had he not come into calls home, he may
Speaker 2: never have killed. And I don't think he's a serial killer.
Speaker 2: He's someone who was just put into that environment where
Speaker 2: it was kill or be killed, And I don't know.
Speaker 2: It just messes where my head a bit. And Brooks
Speaker 2: was the same. Brooks was incarcerated too, and as far
Speaker 2: as I'm aware, he's still in prison as well. Actually
Speaker 2: I know he's still in prison. But there is a
Speaker 2: twist to Henley's case in that on one day nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty eight, I think it was, he actually bought a
Speaker 2: female victim home and Cale got really really upset by
Speaker 2: it because his preference was between age boys, and so
Speaker 2: Carl drugged them all and Henley woke up tied to
Speaker 2: the board like the other victims were, and he sort
Speaker 2: of convinced Paul to let him go and together he
Speaker 2: would kill the female victim and Carl would kill the
Speaker 2: male victim that he'd bought, and they sort of call
Speaker 2: let Henley go, and he pretended to wrap his girlfriend
Speaker 2: that he brought to the house and then sort of
Speaker 2: call teased him about something and the two got into
Speaker 2: a fight, and Carl become angry and said to Henley, well,
Speaker 2: you know, if you didn't like this, well you're just
Speaker 2: gonna have to kill me, and going at him and
Speaker 2: going at him, and Henley actually grabbed a gun and
Speaker 2: shot Dean called dead. So there's actually there's a recording
Speaker 2: out there of Wayne calling his mum and saying, I
Speaker 2: shot Dean, And it's a weird moment because her response is, oh, no,
Speaker 2: you know, her son just wrung her and said, I've
Speaker 2: murdered someone, and there's no she doesn't ask what happened?
Speaker 2: How like, what's going on? It's just oh no, it's
Speaker 2: actually quite odd. It sort of suggests to me that
Speaker 2: she knew something wrong was going on and this was
Speaker 2: the out come that she wasn't surprised by. So then
Speaker 2: Henley and Brooks took the police to the boat ship
Speaker 2: where they started to dig up all of these boys.
Speaker 2: So and the two of them have been in prison
Speaker 2: ever since, and Colin never faced justice because Henley shot
Speaker 2: him dead.
Speaker 6: You also talk about with this case again again something
Speaker 6: out of a twilight zone. This Rhonda Williams that you
Speaker 6: were talking about that was brought here, that precipitated Coral
Speaker 6: being shot by Henley was incidentally the girlfriend of a
Speaker 6: previous victim of Dean Coral Brooks and Henley, or at
Speaker 6: least Dean Coral. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. She's actually finally been able to not
Speaker 2: move on from this, but able to speak out about it.
Speaker 2: She actually wrote a book a few years ago about
Speaker 2: her experience because she was there when a serial killer
Speaker 2: was shot dead by two others by one other serial killer.
Speaker 2: And you know, Brooks was brought in very quickly after that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she was. There was a lot of relationships with a
Speaker 2: lot of the victims. I mean, we're talking about to
Speaker 2: head boys in a small geographical area, so a lot
Speaker 2: of them knew each other. And there's all these boys disappearing,
Speaker 2: and the police, like they did with Gaycy, just assume
Speaker 2: they all run away. So no one saw it as
Speaker 2: a spike or that there was an issue going on,
Speaker 2: or you know, it was just too great a coincidence
Speaker 2: that all these teenage boys were sudden not being found,
Speaker 2: but the investigations weren't happening. So no, that the boys
Speaker 2: run away, We're not going to look. So all of
Speaker 2: these families stood around this boat shed and saw their
Speaker 2: boys get get pulled out, and you think twenty eight
Speaker 2: victims at least, what like, where could have the police
Speaker 2: stop this from happening? Where could they have thought, hang
Speaker 2: a sick let's look into this And everyone goes, oh,
Speaker 2: the last place that they was seen as Dean Cole's place,
Speaker 2: But no one did that until Henley shot Dean Cole dead.
Speaker 2: This was going to continue.
Speaker 6: Yeah. The other again Twilight's on moment, is that to
Speaker 6: further how diligent the police was that Billy Balsh, seventeen
Speaker 6: year old, was killed and less than two years later
Speaker 6: his brother Michael Balsh is another victim November seventy two. Again,
Speaker 6: what's the odds of Randa Williams connected to a victim
Speaker 6: and then two brothers in this horror?
Speaker 2: Yeap exactly. And you know, even if the police had
Speaker 2: looked at the Bulsh family, they would have realized that
Speaker 2: these boys had no reason to run away way and
Speaker 2: maybe you know, Billy was early, he was early early seventies,
Speaker 2: I think, and you know his brother was a few
Speaker 2: years after that. You know that there is all of
Speaker 2: these opportunities that this could have been stopped, but it
Speaker 2: just it just continued, and like two boys in one
Speaker 2: family are just the heartbreak I feel for those parents.
Speaker 6: How did people reconcile it? And how do you how
Speaker 6: do you explain? Again, I've seen a lot of explanations
Speaker 6: for people participating in things. People normally when they're charged
Speaker 6: will say that that person, the partner, forced them to
Speaker 6: do the things that they did, usually proven otherwise in court.
Speaker 6: You talk about these you know, David Brooks and Henley
Speaker 6: luring these other boys to this to be tied to
Speaker 6: a torture rack and we're talking I won't even get
Speaker 6: into these details, but incredible torture of these boys. How
Speaker 6: do you reconcile that these boys would go do that
Speaker 6: for any regardless of any motivation or threat.
Speaker 2: How I think that they were under threat. I think
Speaker 2: that Carle said, you know, if you don't bring a
Speaker 2: boy this weekend, you'll be strapped to it. I mean,
Speaker 2: Caul Henley woke up strapped to it, and he knew
Speaker 2: that he had to survive, so it come to a head.
Speaker 2: But I think you know, they brought almost thirty boys
Speaker 2: into the house, so they knew what was going to
Speaker 2: happen to these boys. And I mean it's twelve when
Speaker 2: he first started to take victims, twelve, So I mean
Speaker 2: you also have after think about the parents. Why are
Speaker 2: you letting your twelve year old boy hang with this
Speaker 2: man day after day, week after week, and an option.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel sorry for Brooks and Henley,
Speaker 2: but yes, at the same time, as you said, they
Speaker 2: knew what was going to happen, they participated in what happened,
Speaker 2: and they helped kill these victims, so they're equally as culpable.
Speaker 2: But I think they wouldn't have become Seriah killers themselves.
Speaker 2: It's just under the guidance of call that this happened.
Speaker 6: You have so many fascinating cases here, including the Dean Coral.
Speaker 6: You include Albert Fish, John Wayne Gacy, Thomas Piper, and Rekidder. Marty.
Speaker 6: You have again we talked about the killer kids. Maybe
Speaker 6: we can talk about this particularly sad case, this Mary Bell,
Speaker 6: and a very odd case as well. Maybe you can
Speaker 6: tell us at a little bit about your story about
Speaker 6: Mary Bell.
Speaker 2: Mary Bell is currently out in the world somewhere with
Speaker 2: her daughter. She'd be I don't know right now, in
Speaker 2: her sixties, I'd say. Now she is one of the
Speaker 2: youngest children ever charged with murder, and not only one,
Speaker 2: but she had two victims. Now, Mary Bell in England
Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties strangled to young boys, so they
Speaker 2: were about four years old. But not only did she
Speaker 2: strangle them, she actually stabbed the corpses and etched her
Speaker 2: name into one of the boy's chests. Now, this was
Speaker 2: a bad child, but again we talk about their horrific
Speaker 2: upbringings and for a child to killer ten has been
Speaker 2: a horrific journey to that point. She had been prostituted
Speaker 2: by her mother. She'd been abused by so many people,
Speaker 2: full she'd been in and out of girls homes and
Speaker 2: all of this, so it culminated in a very short
Speaker 2: spree of two killings, and she actually had a friend
Speaker 2: help her with One of the victims, who sat a
Speaker 2: name was also Belle, which is quite surprising, but Sha
Speaker 2: was actually slightly older. But it was Mary who was
Speaker 2: the instigator, and she actually, like the day before her
Speaker 2: eleventh birthday, she lured a four year old boy called
Speaker 2: Martin to an abandoned house and she she did this herself,
Speaker 2: and she took the boy there and strangled him and
Speaker 2: sort of harmed his corpse. And then a couple of
Speaker 2: months later, with normal Belle, they took a three year
Speaker 2: old boy to some wasteland and the two of them
Speaker 2: sort of attacked him and she etched a big m
Speaker 2: across his his stomach and she sort of mutilated his
Speaker 2: genitals and cut his hair off and basically just sort
Speaker 2: of did a lot of anger harm. So she sort
Speaker 2: of acted out all of her probably pent up anger
Speaker 2: at and frustration that she had at home on this
Speaker 2: three year old boy. And the scary part is that
Speaker 2: when she killed her first victim. The family had a
Speaker 2: viewing and that they were preparing for the funeral and everything,
Speaker 2: and Mary turned up and said, I want to see
Speaker 2: his dead body, just just just as plain as that,
Speaker 2: you know, And they're like, you're an eleven year old girl, please,
Speaker 2: you know, this is very sad, and she she's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I want to see him, you know. She was that
Speaker 2: sort of blase about it. So she was put in
Speaker 2: prison for quite some time, and she she escaped when
Speaker 2: she was about sixteen and fell pregnant. She went for
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks and had a wild ride yep,
Speaker 2: and went back to prison. But in England, like we
Speaker 2: have here, children can't be held for life, so Wayne
Speaker 2: Henley would have been released under UK and Australian law.
Speaker 2: So at the age of eighteen she was released, given
Speaker 2: a new name, and she's been found a few times
Speaker 2: over the years, but basically the people who need to
Speaker 2: know who she is and where she is, and she's
Speaker 2: been kept safe because I mean it comes into culpability
Speaker 2: of a ten year old girl being responsible for what
Speaker 2: she'd done. And so yeah, so she's lived a harmless
Speaker 2: life since then. So that the case isn't well known,
Speaker 2: but it often comes up because of the two ten
Speaker 2: year old boys who killed the two year old toddler
Speaker 2: in in the UK in the nineties, which is another
Speaker 2: big case that happened, and both of those boys were
Speaker 2: released also eighteen, though one of them's now back in
Speaker 2: prison for about the fifth time. So as a case,
Speaker 2: it does come up because of that. It makes you
Speaker 2: wonder what creates a ten year old killer, and it's
Speaker 2: something that's perplexing, and they're quite hard to actually interview
Speaker 2: and get to. I'm actually interviewing a child killer in Australia.
Speaker 2: He was eighteen when he killed a victim and he
Speaker 2: was suspected of two others. So I've been actually interviewing
Speaker 2: him for just this year so far. As I said,
Speaker 2: they're actually hard to find an interview, but I'm trying
Speaker 2: to delve into this a bit further to see what
Speaker 2: creates a child killer. So well, a child who kills
Speaker 2: so interesting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, on the subject of child killers or kids that kill,
Speaker 6: I should say children who kill. You talk about William
Speaker 6: Herons and we're talking about November fifteenth, nineteen twenty eight.
Speaker 6: He was born. Tell us a little bit about William
Speaker 6: Herons because I think it's an indication of or a
Speaker 6: really good example of stopping people before they become killers.
Speaker 6: And there was all these indications very early on that
Speaker 6: if this person could have been stopped. So tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about William Herons and how old was
Speaker 6: he when he began his killing spree.
Speaker 2: Well, he was sixteen seventeen when he started to kill.
Speaker 2: Most people would know him as the lipstick killer because
Speaker 2: one of the crime scenes written on the wall was
Speaker 2: for Heaven's safe, catch me before I kill more. I
Speaker 2: cannot control myself. So it's one of the first cases
Speaker 2: I remember, and I think it's purely because of that
Speaker 2: sticks scrawl. There's evidence to suggest that he might not
Speaker 2: have been the Killer's one of those cases that you're
Speaker 2: either on one side of the fence or the other.
Speaker 2: When I write these cases, I go from the point
Speaker 2: that people have been incarcerated and they've gone through appeals.
Speaker 2: If they're still in prison, as suggested, there's enough evidence
Speaker 2: to put them there. Now. Heron's who was convicted of
Speaker 2: three victims. So there was three female victims. They were
Speaker 2: middle aged, most of them, so around forty five or so,
Speaker 2: which is my age. So I can say say that,
Speaker 2: and they were stabbed and attacked, but there was sort
Speaker 2: of no suspects and it was only that Heron's had
Speaker 2: a criminal record and he was actually captured trying to
Speaker 2: break into a home and had a gun. Did they
Speaker 2: believe that he was the killer. So police at the
Speaker 2: time we're looking for several other susc including a female
Speaker 2: at one of the scenes, and we don't know why that.
Speaker 2: We know that they believed that the second victim was
Speaker 2: actually killed by female. So it's actually quite strange. But
Speaker 2: when Herons was arrested, they actually kept him awake for
Speaker 2: six days. They refused him food and water, and they
Speaker 2: used that im pentathole on him as well as light detectives.
Speaker 2: Now this is a seventeen year old boy in a
Speaker 2: room with all of these police officers, no lawyer, and
Speaker 2: after six days he confessed. I think he would have
Speaker 2: confessed to being Jesus Christ at that point, and so
Speaker 2: it's actually quite I mean, it's quite shocking that this
Speaker 2: is how he was sentenced, was based on his own confession.
Speaker 2: And I mean, he was Chicago's longest serving prisoner. He
Speaker 2: died at eighty three in prison, so he was in
Speaker 2: there for I'm terrible at mass so don't make me
Speaker 2: work out out. But at sixty odd years and he
Speaker 2: always claimed that he had been railroaded by their tactics
Speaker 2: to confess, so he may have been innocent, but he
Speaker 2: went to jail for the case. And so he had
Speaker 2: three victims. As I said, they were all stabbed, they
Speaker 2: were also beaten, and they were that they did struggle
Speaker 2: with their attacker, which I think might suggest why they
Speaker 2: thought one of the victims was killed by a female,
Speaker 2: because there was such a struggle that happened, and I
Speaker 2: don't think a male would grab lipstickers as quickly as
Speaker 2: a female would to write that, but that there'd been
Speaker 2: other witnesses that had had seen heron in the area,
Speaker 2: and he'd been in and out of boys' homes to
Speaker 2: that point for similar attacks, So he had gone into
Speaker 2: people's houses and taken similar things that what was taken
Speaker 2: at the three kill sites. So that sort of is
Speaker 2: a bit more evident against him. So it's a case.
Speaker 2: It's quite interesting and one that I keep coming back
Speaker 2: to because I think that we could dig and find
Speaker 2: more on this, whether to prove or disprove he is
Speaker 2: the killer. But seventeen to eighty three he was in prison.
Speaker 2: That's a very long time.
Speaker 6: You have examples of real killers, Marcel Barbel, Klaus Geisman,
Speaker 6: Richard Marquette, Ivan Malat from Australia, famous infamous Anatoly Arnoldfrienko
Speaker 6: briefly tell us a little bit about this serial killer
Speaker 6: operating in Ukraine.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, this is a guy that from about eighty
Speaker 2: nine ninety six ninety seven he killed fifty two victims,
Speaker 2: so very similar to Andre Chikatillo, who killed sort of
Speaker 2: over a long period of time. I think Chickachillo killed
Speaker 2: for about twenty five years. Ko did the same kill
Speaker 2: rate in only nine or ten years. So his first
Speaker 2: killings were ten victims. So he and our accomplice whose
Speaker 2: name as Rogozen, went into a family's house. They were
Speaker 2: robbing the place. The family came home and rather than
Speaker 2: trying to escape or or get away on a pri
Speaker 2: and co just massacre the entire family. So like BTK,
Speaker 2: starts with a massive killing, and over the next couple
Speaker 2: of years he would do this. He would go into
Speaker 2: their homes and he would break in, steal what he could,
Speaker 2: and then kill the entire family. Often he would do
Speaker 2: that first and then rob the place, but often it
Speaker 2: was the other way around that he would tie them
Speaker 2: all up and make them watch him sort of defile
Speaker 2: their homes, and then once they were dead, he would
Speaker 2: burn the house the ground. So we had a very
Speaker 2: distinct signature to what he did. And he did this
Speaker 2: over and over and over again. He got sick of
Speaker 2: his accomplice and ended up just just going it alone,
Speaker 2: and he would kill massive families. You know, he would
Speaker 2: go and kill the family of four, family of ten,
Speaker 2: a family of eight, and he would do this over
Speaker 2: and over and over again and burn the places down.
Speaker 2: So not only was the serial killer and a burglar,
Speaker 2: he was also an arsonist. So he's one of these
Speaker 2: killers who just enjoyed what he did did the first
Speaker 2: time and just kept doing it over and over and
Speaker 2: over again until he was finally captured. And obviously, when
Speaker 2: you have such a distinct pattern, police were able to
Speaker 2: quickly link them all together and new to it. It
Speaker 2: was a work of a serial killer. And after the
Speaker 2: debacle of the Chickachillo case where they believed that that
Speaker 2: the Ukraine and Russia don't have serial killers because that's
Speaker 2: a US thing, they were able to quickly link all
Speaker 2: of this together, believe they had a serial killer and
Speaker 2: so Onopri and Co. Was actually caught quite quickly, but
Speaker 2: after a massive count of fifty two victims.
Speaker 6: And another case where he wouldn't have been stopped other
Speaker 6: than again just luck in terms of his uncle evicting
Speaker 6: him and then finding a cache of weapons and then
Speaker 6: calling police. If his uncle hadn't, that's fora was much worse,
Speaker 6: wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely he would have kept going. Yeah, with a lot
Speaker 2: lot of these thrial killers, it's about how they get caught,
Speaker 2: and it's often a slip up like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's obvious what he was doing, and there would have
Speaker 2: probably been a geographical passion, but they get sloppy because
Speaker 2: the thrill is like a drug, and they keep going
Speaker 2: and keep going, and they need more and more and
Speaker 2: more that they escalate to such a point. I mean
Speaker 2: he was killing once a monile towards the end, and
Speaker 2: they escalate until they slip up. And that's for what
Speaker 2: he did there.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you have include h. Cholms in as poisoners. Why
Speaker 6: is he included in with poisoners?
Speaker 2: Well, he liked to use gas to kill some of
Speaker 2: his victims and some of the victims that we know
Speaker 2: that he killed were poisoned. Now he was working as
Speaker 2: a pharmacist, so that made it very easy for him
Speaker 2: to get any sort of poison that he wanted. So
Speaker 2: oftentimes with the poisoners, they're able to get away with
Speaker 2: it for a very long time, and they often dispatch
Speaker 2: of their victims quite quickly, though some do do it
Speaker 2: over years and years and years of slowly taking entire
Speaker 2: families out. But Holmes, he's almost the stand alone case
Speaker 2: because he is so different, and you know, he burnt
Speaker 2: down his castle in Chicago, and he had used a
Speaker 2: lots of different methods of killing, and there was some
Speaker 2: financial gain when he killed Benjamin Pizzel, and there's evidence
Speaker 2: has suggested that there were some sexual elements to some
Speaker 2: of his victims. But he's just a case that it
Speaker 2: was almost where can I put him? Because he can
Speaker 2: fit in so many different cases. I mean, you could
Speaker 2: also consider him a mass killer because his victims could
Speaker 2: have been, you know, in the hundreds as far as
Speaker 2: we're aware.
Speaker 6: Right now. With this collection, we talked beforehand that there
Speaker 6: is plans for a volume two, and in volume two,
Speaker 6: what would be covered in that new edition.
Speaker 2: I'd have to go and look at it. I know
Speaker 2: there's definitely cannibals in that. I know that volume three
Speaker 2: is almost going to be entirely our sex killers, so
Speaker 2: our Ted Bundy's and the like. But in the next one,
Speaker 2: I think I've got my medical killers as well. So
Speaker 2: when you look at Harold Shipman and a couple of
Speaker 2: cases like that, so our nurses who kill so Cullen
Speaker 2: and cases involving nurses. I mean, we've got wet Lafer
Speaker 2: in Canada which has just come through. So it's going
Speaker 2: to be just just that next section of killers that
Speaker 2: don't fit under that umbrella of serial killer as easily
Speaker 2: as we'd like them too. So there's about eight different
Speaker 2: categories in that. I would have to look it up approves.
Speaker 2: I haven't looked at it for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: I've been working on some other projects. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: know that the first chapter is cannibals. I'm opening with Dama,
Speaker 2: which is probably people will say he probably didn't eat
Speaker 2: a lot of his victims, but I mean there's pieces
Speaker 2: in the fridge for a reason, so he's definitely the
Speaker 2: opening scene.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yes, Yes, this isn't an incredible I don't know
Speaker 6: what to call it a collection, but an incredible look
Speaker 6: at serial killing and this and the way you categorize
Speaker 6: this and the dramatic examples. And again, I can't even
Speaker 6: imagine you having to hold some of the stuff that
Speaker 6: you held back with some of these stories like Mark
Speaker 6: Dutroux and Dean Coral, and we left a lot of
Speaker 6: those details out for the reader to discover because again,
Speaker 6: hard to read, hard to read the incredible evil that
Speaker 6: these people perpetrated on their victims, and when you see
Speaker 6: other children put into servitude with this evil person, it's
Speaker 6: just again it's visual to me. Yeah, the images that
Speaker 6: were created with this book. So I want to thank
Speaker 6: you very much Amanda for coming on and talking about
Speaker 6: killer minds. You mentioned earlier, and I forgot to mention
Speaker 6: you also are a podcaster, So why don't you talk
Speaker 6: about your podcasts and how people might be able to
Speaker 6: find it, and also if you have a website for
Speaker 6: your books or for a personal website, let us know
Speaker 6: about that.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, my podcast is called Monsters Who Murder Sit
Speaker 2: there with Killer Confessions. We've just done our first two seasons. Basically,
Speaker 2: I use a lot of my first hand experience with
Speaker 2: a lot of these killers, so I use their own words, recordings,
Speaker 2: information in letters and all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: So basically the words of the killers, and then I
Speaker 2: break down not so much the killings themselves, but the
Speaker 2: motivations and the psychology behind it. So that's Monsters Who Murder.
Speaker 2: I also have a Monsters who Murder dot com website,
Speaker 2: as well as Amanda Howard dot com dot a U
Speaker 2: website which is sadly out of date because I'm busy.
Speaker 2: But people can also find me on Twitter at Amanda
Speaker 2: Howard seventy three, and on Facebook and Instagram and all
Speaker 2: of those. I usually just Amanda Howard author or something
Speaker 2: like that. I'm pretty easy to find and I'm often
Speaker 2: on there, so I'm in lots of Facebook groups. I'm
Speaker 2: in Dan's group and all these sorts of places, so
Speaker 2: I'm around and I'm happy to talk to people about
Speaker 2: these cases. So this is what I do. They call
Speaker 2: me the serial killer Whisperer because I seem to get
Speaker 2: some information out of some killers that no one else does.
Speaker 2: I've had a couple of marriage proposals over the years
Speaker 2: and a few things like that. They sent some very
Speaker 2: interesting gifts that I do talk about on the podcast,
Speaker 2: so please come and find me.
Speaker 6: Absolutely going to check that out. Absolutely. Thank you very
Speaker 6: much Amanda Howard for coming on and talking about the
Speaker 6: killer minds and insight into the mind to serial killers.
Speaker 6: It certainly has been a pleasure. Thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Amanda Howard. You have a great evening and hope to
Speaker 6: talk to you again real soon.
Speaker 2: Good Thanks Dan, thank you, good night, Thanks all.