1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: It's important to note that this podcast was recorded a 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,320 couple of weeks ago, just before we got the latest 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,640 solved in the Colonial Parkway murders, that of my sister 17 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:54,000 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. So when I'm referencing Alan 18 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:57,479 Wade wilmer Se being linked to four homicides, that number 19 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,880 is now six. Now on with the show, Welcome to 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,680 mind Over Murder. I'm Bill Thomas. My podcast partner, Kristin 21 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,599 Dilly is not here this week. She is away on assignment, 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,959 but should be back next time. Here on Mind over Murder. Today, 23 00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:14,400 we have a very special guest, and I'm going to 24 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:20,159 struggle pronouncing her last name. It's okay, Jennifer Boocholts. Is 25 00:01:20,159 --> 00:01:20,640 that closed? 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:21,439 Speaker 4: I got a prompt? 27 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: Oh, okay, I practiced, Jennifer. Welcome. 28 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,159 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. Bill. 29 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about yourself, and don't be modest. 30 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,799 Speaker 4: I'll try to keep it short. I'm an Army veteran. 31 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,159 I served in the US Army as a counter intelligence agent, 32 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,239 and I've done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I've 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,400 done enforced Protection Operation Lizard called all around the world 34 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,480 as a contractor for different agencies. Several years back, I 35 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:55,239 went and got my master's in forensic science and started 36 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,560 teaching forensics and criminal justice at American Military University, and 37 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:02,640 I'm still there as a part time instructor. Now. I'm 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,239 currently a cold case investigator for the Opatha County Sheriff's 39 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,840 office in Colorado, not Texas, but that's fair to mix 40 00:02:09,879 --> 00:02:13,360 them up that they get half in Bolotin. I'm actually 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,960 a civilian criminal investigator, so I'm not badged. But I 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,360 can do pretty much everything the detectives can do except 43 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,120 arrest somebody or swear under oath before a judge for 44 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:28,680 something like a search one. But I do interviews, interrogations, 45 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,719 my foot bunsard warms all the time, write rewards, whatever, 46 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,199 work alongside the detectives. And like I said, I teach 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,000 part time. And then my civilian non work investigative partner 48 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,199 George Jared and I host a podcast called Break the Cakes, 49 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,240 and we also co founded a nonprofit by the same name. 50 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,840 So we're dedicated to trying to help families and law 51 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,360 enforcement with unsolved home side cases around the country. 52 00:02:56,159 --> 00:02:58,719 Speaker 2: And the work that you do with Break the Case 53 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:01,599 that's volunteer work, is it not. 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 4: Yes, and completely separate from my position to the Sheriff's office. 55 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:07,159 I keep the two separate. 56 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:09,439 Speaker 2: Like you didn't have enough on your plate, then you 57 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:13,680 had to start a podcast where among your distinguished guests, 58 00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:16,199 and I'll put myself in a less distinguished category. 59 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 4: No. 60 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: No, I've suggested with you and George several years ago, 61 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,159 and then we've seen each other at Crime con and 62 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,240 other conferences, and I always feel like we have these 63 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,800 fantastic conversations which are not long enough. 64 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,319 Speaker 4: It's really hard though, when you're standing on your table 65 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,879 and you've got tons of people commide one and speak 66 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:35,599 to you and Kristen. 67 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the great things about crime Con is 68 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,680 you see so many people that you know and respect 69 00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:45,479 and can learn from. In addition to meeting friends and 70 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,000 fans and all that stuff. I love the networking that 71 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,919 can take place. And I can't count how many people 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,039 I've met at crime Con and other true crime conferences 73 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,000 that have proven to be incredibly helpful in terms of 74 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:03,080 educating christ an enemy about various aspects in terms of 75 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,960 their own areas of expertise. That has great value too. 76 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,479 Speaker 4: Oh for sure. And I'm always looking for outside resources 77 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,000 that I call a lot of particular case for assistance 78 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,639 or something. So networking the most valuable part. 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: Do you feel like there's a through line here with 80 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:25,160 your army experience and counterintelligence and then moving into more 81 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:28,879 of a law enforcement and an investigative role. I do so. 82 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: Counter intelligence is an investigative role. We were badged in 83 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,560 the army and on investigative status in most of the 84 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,079 places I was assigned. It's just a different type of investigation. 85 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,600 The cycle of investigation is pretty much the same no 86 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:43,959 matter what type of case you're working on. But in 87 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,720 addition to that, I think the most valuable things that 88 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,240 bridge those gaps between the two career lines is my 89 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:55,319 interview and interrogation experience from the Army. He was in Afghanistan. 90 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,480 I interviewed over five hundred local Afghan nationals. Got some 91 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,160 amazing experience there in interviewing and interrogation, and it's some 92 00:05:04,319 --> 00:05:06,120 in Iraq. Know as much, I was doing some different 93 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,120 stuff when I was in Iraq, but have you worked 94 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,360 in South Korea with different human sources, lots of interviewing there. 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,800 It's just very interview heavy, and of course that really 96 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,680 teaches you like about human behavior in general and nonverbal behavior, right, 97 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:21,319 and all those little things that you see on the 98 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:23,279 via that you're supposed to pick up on Carring is 99 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:27,000 across in the cold case investigations a lot, because we're 100 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,519 always going back and reinterviewing people or finding new people 101 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,399 to interview. So I think my skill set is directly 102 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,319 applicable there in the patience level that you're taught when 103 00:05:38,319 --> 00:05:41,759 you work in color intelligence. You know, the ultimate goal 104 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,000 of counterintelligence is to recruit human sources to give you 105 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,959 information about your adversary, and so if you're at wartime, 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,800 that's going to be whatever country you're fighting. But you 107 00:05:51,959 --> 00:05:54,800 learn in ait the very beginning of your training in 108 00:05:54,879 --> 00:05:57,240 the army that you're just going to be one part 109 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,959 of that process and you may never get to see 110 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,720 the end result of what happens with that source. But 111 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,480 your work, no matter what it is very important. But 112 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:08,040 you have to have so much patience. And so patience 113 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,360 is definitely a virtue, and that definitely carries over into 114 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,959 cold case investigations because you've got to be patients not 115 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,680 going to happen right away like with a brand new case. 116 00:06:19,199 --> 00:06:21,480 But I enjoy that because it gives me so much 117 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:24,879 more time to become a subject matter expert on a case, 118 00:06:25,639 --> 00:06:29,920 really evaluate it. It makes freadsheets Lambily's notes, and I 119 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,519 could take my time of me methodical and I love 120 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,639 that software cuttings, but I love it. 121 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,959 Speaker 2: Would there be a lot of work with translators because 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,000 here I am listening to you talk about being in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, 123 00:06:43,079 --> 00:06:47,720 you weren't necessarily always conducting those investigations or those interrogations 124 00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:50,560 in the person's native language. Where you would you be 125 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,279 working in a partnership with a translator. Yep. 126 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 4: In Korea, we had a Korean, a lincol guy who's 127 00:06:56,879 --> 00:06:59,600 grown up in South Korea. He was assigned to us 128 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,680 as a full time translator, so we had him wherever 129 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,639 we need to go or whatever, because, Yeah, most of 130 00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:08,360 the kre instance speak English. With innovating and interrogating, if 131 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,720 you can conduct it in that person's native language, it's 132 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:13,199 better than trying to get them to think through the 133 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,399 wording to translate themselves. Yeah, and iraqis Afghanistan the same things. 134 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,079 A few Iraqis I worked with did speak decent English. 135 00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:26,279 Usually I'd still take an interpreter with me. And Afghanistan, 136 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,399 nearly every interview I conducted was in their local language 137 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:32,839 with an interpreter. Right, I just don't speak their language. 138 00:07:32,879 --> 00:07:35,439 Speaker 2: And I suppose in all of those examples, you're looking 139 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,199 for thoughtful answers from this individual, and most of us 140 00:07:40,199 --> 00:07:42,720 are going to think in our native language. So it 141 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,279 actually was simpler to ask someone in their native language 142 00:07:47,279 --> 00:07:50,120 so they could think about their answer and provide you, yeah, 143 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,839 a good in depth answer. But I suppose the trust 144 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,959 of your translator partner is absolutely critical to hear too. 145 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,800 Because say that you need like details, you. 146 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:03,519 Speaker 4: Have to have an excellent working relationship with your interpreter, 147 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,519 and we would do a lot of training with them 148 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,839 on We would have to train them to pick up 149 00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:09,240 on things we couldn't. 150 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: Yes, I would. 151 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:13,319 Speaker 4: Don't you think they're lying or you know they're lying. 152 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:14,839 You've got to convey that to me. 153 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,079 Speaker 2: Don't just think I'm going to get it. 154 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,199 Speaker 4: Correct and we can take a break and walk out 155 00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:21,519 of the room and talk about whatever's going on. But 156 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,319 you've got to convey your thoughts that are in your 157 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,079 head to me because I can interpret their body language 158 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:29,519 and stuff. But still different because with a different culture. 159 00:08:29,639 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, culturally, but you're literally on the other side of 160 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,279 the world. Culturally, you want you didn't grow up there, 161 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,840 and here's this five foot ten blonde woman asking all 162 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,279 these questions. I know we were talking off air about 163 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:45,960 the fact that in certain places in the world, like 164 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:49,399 in Germany and Norway you mentioned you fit right in. 165 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,559 And then, knowing that you'd worked in Iraq and Afghanistan, 166 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,480 I thought to myself, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'll 167 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,120 bet a five to ten blond woman really stood out. 168 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 4: In some way. But a lot of the people I 169 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:03,919 worked with or talked with were intrigued. 170 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: Oh they were. 171 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, they would ask me questions too, And I don't 172 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:12,000 mind that in an interrogation, right, most of the stuff 173 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,679 I was doing was interviewing the difference. I don't mind 174 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,159 answering questions. What's it like in there? Sim uh huh dog. 175 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,720 Then then after getting sant Obama is an outre So 176 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,559 what do you think about Obama compared to Oh, yeah, 177 00:09:25,039 --> 00:09:26,600 we have to go down this road. 178 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:29,799 Speaker 2: But it's interesting because people from another country would be 179 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,879 asking you about US presidents and things like that. But 180 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,320 I find even in my working with people from around 181 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,320 the world, they're very interested in what goes on in 182 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,879 the United States politically, socially, even entertainment wise. Yes, movies 183 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:48,720 and television shows and all that stuff. They have a 184 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:49,799 great deal of interest. 185 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 4: Yes, it's so different to them to what they're used to. 186 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,279 Speaker 2: So what brought you to Colorado? 187 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 4: Colorado is my first thirty station in the Army. I 188 00:10:00,279 --> 00:10:03,039 was stationed at Fort Carson. I really enjoyed it when 189 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,799 I was stationed here. The mountains are really close by, 190 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,080 tons of hiking and wreck climbing, and I liked to 191 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,559 skie so it has all the outdoor stuff and four seasons. 192 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,480 And ironically, my husband, who was Air Force, we were 193 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:18,879 stationed here at the same time, but we didn't meet here. 194 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,399 Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. 195 00:10:20,759 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 4: You actually met in Korea. And then I got out 196 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,440 of the Army. We were in Florida because he was 197 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,399 stationed at Florida and we really didn't like Florida. Yeah, 198 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,240 so he got out, We're like, where do you want 199 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,080 to go? So we both kind of like Colorado situated 200 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:37,679 halfway between our families. And then he got accepted to 201 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,080 the University of Colorado for engineering, and so we just 202 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,399 ended up moving back and we've been here ever since. 203 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: Oh got it. I wasn't sure if it was a 204 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:48,240 work thing, but it was really one of those where 205 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,840 where do we go from here? Question? 206 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:51,879 Speaker 4: Out in a way we can go where we want. 207 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,320 When I was working back then, I was traveling, so 208 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,480 if I was hold, you could live wherever you want 209 00:10:57,519 --> 00:10:59,919 in the US and the flight to where you needed to. 210 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,320 So it was a fun decision. 211 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 2: And then what kind of cases have kept you busiest with? 212 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,080 Break the Case both the podcast and your nonprofit organization. 213 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,840 You and George Jarrett have been working together for how 214 00:11:12,879 --> 00:11:13,559 long now. 215 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 4: It willed begs years this month. Sorry, I had to 216 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,720 think it was January thirtieth of twenty nineteen that we 217 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,519 met over the phone, that we got connected at the 218 00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:26,120 hip on the Rebecca Gold case. It had a positive 219 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,840 outcome on that one her killers now serving forty years. 220 00:11:30,159 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: Wow, fantastic work. 221 00:11:32,519 --> 00:11:34,519 Speaker 4: For those who don't know the case. I'll just be 222 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,039 real short. 223 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:35,919 Speaker 2: Were they Oh sure? 224 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 4: Unting out there and all over our website too. You 225 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,120 can go look at all the content. But ultimately her 226 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,879 killer joined a Facebook group that George and I were 227 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:46,559 admins of and he was making comments and then he 228 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,840 started direct messaging me in twenty twenty and we had. 229 00:11:49,639 --> 00:11:52,919 Speaker 2: A and this is under his name, his real name, 230 00:11:53,039 --> 00:11:55,000 And was this a name that was already known to 231 00:11:55,039 --> 00:11:58,399 you as a potential suspect, not as a suspect. 232 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,519 Speaker 4: So when he joined the group, one of our crowdsourcing 233 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:04,120 team members that gets picked a caller Miranda. She's amazing, 234 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,799 she's great in genealogy. She had mapped the whole family 235 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:11,960 tree of Rebecca's boyfriend, and that was important because Rebecca 236 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,039 was killed inside her boyfriend's house and then her body 237 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,519 was moved to a secondary location when someone tried to 238 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,080 clean the scene, so I just know from experience, like 239 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:22,159 with someone then't that much effort. They got a known 240 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:24,919 connection to the victim, right of course, were eyeballing the 241 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:27,080 boyfriend and like, how did he get cleared and does 242 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,480 he actually have an alibi? And if it's not him, 243 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,399 then somebody connected to. 244 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: Him to him. 245 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this guy named Larry Miller joined our Facebook 246 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,039 group and Miranda says, hey, by the way, that's Casey's 247 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,799 first cousin. Okay, that's interesting, and you see there's real name, 248 00:12:42,799 --> 00:12:45,720 all right, But we did a bunch of research and 249 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:48,879 at the tire Rebecca's murder, William was living in Texas 250 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,320 with a wife and a small child, and we didn't 251 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,519 no reason to believe he was anywhere near the state 252 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,120 of Arkansas with like twelve hours the way. So that's 253 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,639 why he was never a suspect to us. But we 254 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:00,679 weren't curious why he was in the group, and then 255 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:03,799 he definitely lied to me when we were d mding 256 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,279 each other, I found roundabout ways to ask how did 257 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,639 you find out about this murder? Living overseas working in 258 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,159 the oil industry, And so he went to great lengths 259 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,200 to keep his relationship to the family private, but it 260 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,159 knew so I played don't but I was like, that's interesting, 261 00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:20,559 but we still don't have a reason. I think he'd 262 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,200 been in the state of Arkansas within about six weeks 263 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,240 before his arrest. Swinney, we got the magic tip. 264 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:28,039 Speaker 2: From somebody that put him there. 265 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,279 Speaker 4: Found out he had come to visit that weekend because 266 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,799 his mom and brother were living in the area, and 267 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,799 that was another piece of the puzzle we did not know. 268 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 2: Wow, something went to. 269 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,799 Speaker 4: Huge lengths to cover up the fact that these three 270 00:13:41,039 --> 00:13:43,080 were in the area at the time for murder. 271 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,159 Speaker 2: By the time it was confirmed that he was in 272 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,519 Arkansas at the time of Rebecca Goulds murder, were you 273 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:52,879 suspicious of him by that point. 274 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 4: No. It was that piece of information that changed our 275 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,600 whole focus right then, where we're like, okay, okay, there's 276 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:03,639 these two brothers that nobody ever admitted were in the 277 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,000 state at the time. One of them has got to 278 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:09,080 be involved in this at a minimum, but we didn't 279 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,799 know which brother. We were looking at both the brothers, 280 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,200 like doing as much ancestry and back hoomb research as 281 00:14:14,519 --> 00:14:17,039 we could have to figure out everything we could about them. 282 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,360 What's really disheartening about this case is that William Miller's 283 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,000 name had been in the case file since the first week. 284 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: Of course, police had known he'd. 285 00:14:25,559 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 4: Been in the state, and they didn't think it was 286 00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:29,879 weird that he fled with state the day after, and 287 00:14:29,919 --> 00:14:32,399 that his mom packed up her entire house and moved 288 00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:34,320 to Texas the week of the murder. 289 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: How is that even possible that someone that blows town 290 00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:41,840 right after this Brital murder doesn't move on to law 291 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:42,799 enforcement's radar. 292 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 4: I don't know, because obviously as soon as we found out, 293 00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:46,720 we were alarmed. 294 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:51,039 Speaker 2: Oh no, all yeah, so without question. 295 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 4: So in November of twenty twenty, and part of the 296 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,840 problem with this case is that they'd had the same 297 00:14:56,879 --> 00:14:59,159 detective onage for fourteen years who believed that this was 298 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,720 a drug deal gone wrong. 299 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: And he was locked into that theory. 300 00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 4: And it was completely false. We know that now he 301 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:10,320 completely publicly accused this guy with no evidence, oh boy, 302 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,039 and basically ruined his wife. But anyways, outside in twenty twenty, 303 00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:15,879 they also got a new detective on it. Finally he 304 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,879 let an open mind, so she went back to the beginning, 305 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:21,480 and he started looking at William Miller unbeknown to us, 306 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,080 moved out to Oregon where William was in November and 307 00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:26,639 interviewed them, and William. 308 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,799 Speaker 2: Confessed, so really that part of it was a new detective, 309 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,000 fresh eyes, not being locked into past theories. 310 00:15:33,879 --> 00:15:34,679 Speaker 4: Yes, correct? 311 00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: Was your relationship with the new detective? Was it able 312 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,480 to be a cooperative one? 313 00:15:40,879 --> 00:15:43,679 Speaker 4: It was okay. It was falsely a one way road 314 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:47,360 where if we found information that seemed important, we would 315 00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:49,600 pass it to him. He did call me in Georgia 316 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,799 a couple times with questions. He was in our Facebook 317 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:55,600 group under fake name, he told us then he was 318 00:15:55,679 --> 00:15:57,519 I don't know which fake person he was. 319 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe better for you not to know just exactly. Yeah, 320 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,519 John Smith was a member of the Facebook group. 321 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:08,039 Speaker 4: I was just happy he was watching working around. So 322 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,320 there was some collaboration, But honestly, after the conviction, we 323 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,200 asked if we could meet with him because we wanted 324 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,799 to better understand what did we do that helped, What 325 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:17,960 could we have done better? Did we overstep? And he 326 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,240 refused to meet with us. 327 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: Oh my, because we're. 328 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: So basically talked to us ever since, and the story 329 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,360 is actually not over because the way I am confessor 330 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:29,759 Rebecca's murder, he confessed to five other murders, but with 331 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,000 the other five he claimed they were sex workers, so 332 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:35,000 he didn't know their names, so he couldn't tell and 333 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,679 best meters exactly through and he did get some details. 334 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:42,159 He did give some locations Arkansas. They pleased didn't do 335 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,000 anything about those extra confessions, those additional confessions. 336 00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:48,399 Speaker 2: Excuse me, wow, how disappointing. 337 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:51,799 Speaker 4: Been trying to work on that on our own ver and. 338 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:54,799 Speaker 2: You've worked on other cases as well. For again, this 339 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,120 is all at no charge. This is out of the 340 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,000 goodness of your heart. 341 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 4: Really ever take money from a victim's family. Never. 342 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:06,519 Speaker 2: And you mentioned something which is I think our reason 343 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,680 for this conversation today. You mentioned in the Rebecca Gould case, 344 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,960 which had a tremendous outcome, will you identify a suspect? 345 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,240 And if Arkansas law enforcement doesn't want to acknowledge your role, 346 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:19,880 I guess we'll just have to live with that. But 347 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,680 it sounds like you played a pretty major role in 348 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:28,079 helping build this case against this suspect. You mentioned using 349 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,720 ancestry to help you build out family trees, and I 350 00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:35,400 know you've done this successfully in other cases. You and 351 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,160 I were talking about this a week or so back 352 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,640 and we thought we should get together and talk about 353 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,440 it on the podcast. What's going on with the changes 354 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:48,160 in what they call the terms of service for ancestry 355 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,799 dot com, which I know many of us, myself included 356 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,640 use for family DNA research. My understanding is that mid 357 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:01,039 last year ancestry dot com made change to their terms 358 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:04,680 of service. What does that mean for investigators like yourself? 359 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 4: I mean the giant mess It was actually a lean November, 360 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,160 I believe, but they change their terms of service. So previously, 361 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,599 as me working for somebody in law enforcement, we were 362 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,440 not allowed to upload a DNA profile and Ancestry we 363 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:21,440 understood that right weren't supposed to use it to try 364 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,039 and identify suspects. But we could use it and I 365 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,400 have done this extensively at work. We could use it 366 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,400 to build chandy trees of missing persons or to help 367 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,160 us an attempt to identify the owner of unidentified human remains. 368 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,759 So I did this on at least a half dozen 369 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,799 of our cases at work. Part of my purpose with 370 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,000 a couple of the missing persons cases is because I 371 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,279 discovered that we didn't have a relative's DNA of the 372 00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:50,119 missing person and coded so built these family truths to 373 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,119 identify which relatives of the missing person were still alive, 374 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:55,880 and then figure out which is the one that's going 375 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,079 to share the most DNA with the person, And then 376 00:18:58,319 --> 00:19:00,720 I would use my law enforcement out of bases to 377 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:03,640 find that person's phone number, usually because they might not 378 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,440 live here and won't explain what I'm doing. And you 379 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:09,119 never had any problem with anybody giving me the DNA. 380 00:19:09,519 --> 00:19:12,119 And again, we wanted to make sure that for each 381 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,880 missing person case we had a relative's DNA and CODUS 382 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,400 and then a name US which is another database for 383 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:22,400 missing and unidentified persons. So now with the updated terms 384 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,039 of service, and this is the direct quote from their website, 385 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:29,240 but we are not chusing services in connection with any 386 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:33,920 law enforcement investigation or judicial perceiving, which means I can't 387 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:36,480 even use it like in the examples they just gave 388 00:19:36,599 --> 00:19:39,960 to try to locate the missing person's relative. Can't begin 389 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:42,200 to understand who wouldn't want that done? 390 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole thing seems in it just completely insane. 391 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,759 I don't want to move too quickly past something, which 392 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,799 is that for those situations where law enforcement is uploading 393 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:57,839 a profile, a DNA profile of either a missing person 394 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,720 or a suspect in an investigation, and they're uploading those 395 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:07,640 two Jedmatch and Family Treat DNA because those two databases 396 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,759 permit law enforcement to upload an unknown person or a 397 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:17,039 suspect into their databases. But no one's trying to upload 398 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,599 into Ancestry or there's there's my Heritage, and so many 399 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,440 other popular sites, but the only two that allow uploads 400 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:31,400 are jed match and family Tree DNA. Am I correct? 401 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,279 Speaker 4: That's correct, and an author has one they've started well, DNA. 402 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: Solves, which I know is a bit smaller, but every 403 00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:44,200 DNA database could potentially offer a lead to law enforcement 404 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,079 in those situations. But there are no violations of terms 405 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,240 of service when someone does that. 406 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 4: That's correct. So another quote from they're updated terms of 407 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,839 service is that users are not to use information obtained 408 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,359 from Ancestry DNA services, whether they're in whole or art 409 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,720 in combination with any other database or service for law 410 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:07,000 enforcement like so basically acting only half a law enforcement 411 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:10,599 or helping law enforcement or any judicial proceeding. So it's 412 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,759 not only that I, as a Sheriff's office employee, can't 413 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,640 use it. I can't ask a failing member of my 414 00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:19,920 missing person, say to go to their Ancestry account and 415 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,920 could you look in your tree for me and tell 416 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,640 me this, that or the other. Technically not allowed to 417 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,119 do that. The other thing we've done in the past 418 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:31,200 is ordered at home Leona kids from Ancestry for victims' 419 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,920 family members to take and upload into Ancestry so that 420 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,119 they can see if they number one get a mash 421 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,480 to their missing person, there is an off chance that 422 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:42,079 the missing person is out there alive. 423 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,279 Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah. 424 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,279 Speaker 4: Or also to help us find relatives. And again we've 425 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:49,640 never had anybody have an issue doing that for us, 426 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,119 but now that's we're not allowed to do that either. 427 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: I'm outraged. I think what Ancestry is trying to do 428 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,480 is so overstepping their bounds. First of all, well, where 429 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,519 do they get off telling the family member of a 430 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:08,839 missing person, for example, that they can't upload their DNA 431 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,319 as part of a quest. Look, my family found a 432 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,119 half sister we knew nothing about, which has been an 433 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,000 exciting journey in and out of itself. I'm sure conversation 434 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,799 for another day, but we have a new sister and 435 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:25,559 we're thrilled to have her. I don't see how Ancestry 436 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:28,640 has a leg to stand on in terms of you 437 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:31,880 telling a family member, here's a home kit, spit in 438 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,119 this tomb like we've all done, and upload your DNA. 439 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,480 This might help in the search for your lost loved 440 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:42,720 one or your murdered sibling, like in my example, a 441 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:44,720 sister Kathy is a murder victim as part of the 442 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:48,000 Colonial Parkway murders. I don't even think they're standing on 443 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,640 very firm ground here. They have no right to tell 444 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,039 you what you can do. We all pay for our 445 00:22:54,079 --> 00:22:59,119 subscriptions to ancestry where you were doing genealogical research. I'm 446 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,039 looking into the promises and the mcneces, which is my 447 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,480 mom's maiden name, which is one of the ways we 448 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:08,200 ended up finding my new half sister. This is crazy. 449 00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:11,440 I don't even think they're standing on very firm ground here. 450 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,039 Speaker 4: And not only is applying to ancestry dot com, but 451 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,319 the other databases that I guess they control, well, I 452 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:21,319 don't know if they own, but that includes find a grank, 453 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,359 which I thought was a totally public website that any civilian. 454 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,039 Speaker 2: User companion inform each and we infuse that in our 455 00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:28,599 case too. 456 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I have a homicide victim from nineteen eighty eight. Oh, 457 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:35,599 she has a daughter who was one year old when 458 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,079 she was killed. I knew the daughter had been in 459 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:41,160 the military. I'm using all my law enforcing databases like 460 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,279 she and not find this girl. None of the information's correct. 461 00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:46,720 I'm like stretching my head. How am I going to 462 00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:48,960 find this girl? I need her DNA. I don't have 463 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:53,440 any relatives DNA for this homicide victim. I'm just googling 464 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,839 my victim's name one day, let's see if there's anything new. 465 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,079 And up comes a link to find a grave And 466 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,440 there's no obituary, but there is a list with a 467 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,599 photo of her headstone. And I noticed there's one comment 468 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:08,039 from her daughter, made ten years prior. But I noticed 469 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:10,359 the daughter actually made to find a grave account. I 470 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:13,519 made an account and find a grave, messaged the daughter 471 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,519 to find a grave, and that's how we connected. What 472 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:17,359 is wrong with that? 473 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: Who? What? Nothing? 474 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,599 Speaker 4: Once? The problem? 475 00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: This daughter, who would have been one at the time 476 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,720 of her mother's death, would now be a grown woman. 477 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,799 Yes she is and has every right to hear from you. 478 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,920 Was she aware of the fact that you were looking 479 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:34,480 for her? 480 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 4: No, the like all the other information I had found 481 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,079 on her, was not valid. I had found her ex 482 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,359 mother in law and spoke to the ex mother in law, 483 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,400 but she'd been divorced for a while, so the X 484 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,920 mother in law didn't know where she was living. 485 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,039 Speaker 2: It weren't in touch anymore, that kind of thing. 486 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 4: Didn't have any more contact information for her. And when 487 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,279 I finally got a hold of her, she goes, this 488 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,079 is the first phone call I've ever gotten about my mom. 489 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,359 It was so critical, it was so important, and she 490 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,720 was so thankful. So, like you said, how dare you 491 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,960 prevent me from trying to find somebody through an open 492 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:08,920 source database. 493 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after 494 00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:21,440 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 495 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 4: And then they're also saying we can't use newspapers dot 496 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,440 com anymore. So you're telling me you can't go look 497 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:28,880 up my person's obituary. 498 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,279 Speaker 2: This is crazy. I use newspapers dot com probably at 499 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:38,039 least once a week. They Ancestry also own newspapers dot com. 500 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 4: I guess. 501 00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:43,799 Speaker 2: So I find myself looking up things regarding our family history, 502 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,039 and it's incredibly helpful to be able to look up 503 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:50,640 an article. I'm very disturbed by something which is that 504 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,960 many of the sources of information in the ancestry kind 505 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,640 of array of tools that are used by genealogists, our 506 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,640 public information to start with, like local and state records 507 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,279 of births, deaths, marriages. Yeah, and I'm willing to pay 508 00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:10,799 for my subscription. I don't have a problem with it. 509 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,240 I recognize the providing a valuable service. But for them 510 00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:18,160 to say that you can then not look for this. Now, 511 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,920 woman the daughter and it sounds like very happy to 512 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,880 hear from you with information about her late mother. How 513 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,400 can they say, oh, we're not going to allow you 514 00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:33,359 to use this information, and if you pay for it, 515 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,519 you're not doing anything that's untoward or illegal done at all. 516 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 4: We're just helping the groups and their families. And I 517 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,640 would love, I would actually love to talk to somebody 518 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,480 in Ancestry who did all this, because they actually contradict themselves. 519 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,559 Is also in the terms of service, it says, quote 520 00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:54,079 Ancestry does not claim any ownership rights to your content, 521 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,960 control how you choose to share your content within the services, 522 00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:01,039 or limit how you share it outside of Ancestry. I'm like, 523 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,319 wait a minute, so which is it? 524 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: So which is it? Are you going to try to 525 00:27:05,759 --> 00:27:10,039 prevent me from using this information to move an investigation 526 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:11,200 forward or not. 527 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:14,279 Speaker 4: So they have someome they really need to make some 528 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,200 check sits to their wording if you asked me, but 529 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,000 if you want to get minitty gritty, I was just 530 00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:19,960 reading it a line for line. I'm like, wait, this 531 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:21,240 contradicts what they. 532 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:24,759 Speaker 2: What it says two paragraphs before this whole thing. It 533 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:28,119 just I'm disgusted, And like I said, I have no 534 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,799 problem whatsoever paying for the service. I pay for the 535 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,599 service of a year. I use the service. As I 536 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,200 was mentioning to you, I think I probably looked something 537 00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:39,279 up no less than once a week. We have friends 538 00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:42,720 of ours that are helping us research the Colonial Parkway murders, 539 00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:45,359 which is a case. Now we're finally, after all these years, 540 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,519 starting to see some significant movement forward thanks to the 541 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,240 Virginia State Police and SAKE grants at a Sexual Assault 542 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:55,240 Kit initiative grants that they've been applying for. And now 543 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,240 they've linked this suspector's deceased Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. To 544 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,680 four murders, one pair of which are part of the 545 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,960 Colonial Parkway murders directly, and one Loriente. Powell has a 546 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:12,640 newly identified victim of Wilmers. She had been considered what 547 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,079 Kristin Dilley often calls Colonial Parkway Murders adjacent. It was 548 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,680 a murder that took place right around the same time 549 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,319 and in the same geographic area of Virginia, and we 550 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,720 had always thought that Lorient Powell might be related to 551 00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:29,000 the Colonial Parkway murders. Again, thanks to the Virginia State Police, 552 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,319 DNA Labs International and their team, Yes, the Department of 553 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,400 Forensic Sciences for the Commonwealth of Virginia, and a whole 554 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,839 bunch of people I'm probably forgetting they all worked together. 555 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,119 Blied Versaki Grant sent the evidence down to DNA Labs 556 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,880 International and lo and behold we got another hit. Amazing, 557 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,519 but it's so exciting when you see this moving forward. Now. 558 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,359 Did they use ancestry in any of their searches? I 559 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,160 don't know. I've never even asked them. 560 00:28:58,519 --> 00:28:59,839 Speaker 4: Who cares right? 561 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: Who cares well? 562 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,839 Speaker 4: You solved a murder? Who doesn't want that? 563 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, her family's been waiting for answers for over thirty years. 564 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,039 Speaker 4: I was randing with George about this the other day 565 00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:15,400 and I'm like, who know what he goes? There's one 566 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,039 group Jen and I'm like, who, And he's the criminals themselves. 567 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:20,839 Speaker 2: I was gonna say, is Joy's talking about the bad guy? 568 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,359 Who else would not want this? 569 00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so Ancestry, let's just help the rapists and 570 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:27,680 murderers stay out there longer. 571 00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. They'll be your biggest fans. But the rest 572 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,640 of us are standing here scratching our heads. 573 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's point not Also, it's taxpayer dollars that paid 574 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,240 to digitize all those public records. Yeah, in story didn't 575 00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:46,920 pay for that. This is unbelievable to me. I'd love 576 00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:50,599 to get somebody from Ancestry on the podcast to explain 577 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,559 just how this benefits anyone. The one thing it did 578 00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:58,880 occur to me reading articles preparing for today's conversation, this 579 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,559 feels like they're trying to protect their terf because they 580 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,039 have and are probably, without questioning, the market leader in 581 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:08,640 terms of genealogy. I know there are lots of other 582 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,720 sites that provide similar services, but I've found it in 583 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:16,599 my limited experience that ancestries array of tools are very helpful, 584 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:18,640 which is why I use. 585 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: It and am happy to pay for it. This almost 586 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,400 feels like a defensive move, like they're trying to prevent 587 00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:28,680 other companies or competitors from getting any kind of leg up. 588 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,480 The whole thing just feels so counter productive. Where would 589 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,920 it leave investigators like yourself in terms of the work 590 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,920 that you do both for your volunteer not for profit 591 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,119 organization and for the work you do during the day. 592 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: Technically there are rules apply to both roles, because in 593 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:51,240 both roles, I'm working on unsolved cases, whether it's directly 594 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,039 short my law enforcement or indirectly through the nonprofit, but 595 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,000 ultimately for law enforcement use. I'm stuck. I'm literally payicking 596 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,119 because my subscription's gotta run out soon and I'm not 597 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,319 going to have anything, and I will find a replacement, 598 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,039 But what I've found is there's nothing comparable right now 599 00:31:09,079 --> 00:31:12,160 on the market. My understanding is there's a couple of places, 600 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,960 a couple companies that have something that they're working on 601 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:17,960 that will be allowed to be used by law enforcement. 602 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:20,920 Is not going to be next month, six months, a year. 603 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,519 Like I got cases that work on. I have massive 604 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:26,480 family trees I've built in ancestry and now what Yeah, 605 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:29,319 I can download the jed com file. There are other 606 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,599 programs where you can upload a jed com file. Right, 607 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:35,559 don't look anything like your tree did on ancestry, and 608 00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:39,039 it's not nearly as usual friendly. It's also not connected 609 00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:43,039 to all those historical records, so there's major limitations, and 610 00:31:43,079 --> 00:31:46,160 it's gonna stall cases. There's absolutely no doubt if we 611 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,200 abide by their terms of service, which my ethical guidelines 612 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,400 say I have to, it's going to stall progress in cases, 613 00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:58,359 especially unidentified human remains cases. Who doesn't want their missing 614 00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:01,839 launched one identified? Oh, there's nobody who wouldn't want Maybe 615 00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:04,480 even a criminal would want that if they're missing their brothers. 616 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:06,039 Has nothing to do with a crime being. 617 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: I also think the people in those communities when you 618 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:13,759 hear about someone when they say remains were discovered somewhere. 619 00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:17,279 A lot of times it's in isolated locations, or it's 620 00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:20,599 on a farm or in a barn or places like 621 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,440 that where there really had a complete loss as to 622 00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:27,119 who this person might be. The members of the community 623 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,599 often pull together and they say, we really want to 624 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,720 find out who this person is. There's the humanity of 625 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:35,559 it all. How tragic it is for someone to die 626 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,359 apparently alone, to not even be known by their families. 627 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,880 People always have these legends, Oh, my uncle moved to 628 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880 California and we never heard from him again. Maybe that happened, 629 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,599 But what if it didn't. What if exactly your uncle 630 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:55,559 is the person that was found in this isolated location 631 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,839 with no clue as to who he is. 632 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 4: I may give a real case scenario there just hopen Nework. 633 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,720 So in nineteen eighty six, here in Colora Springs, the 634 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,720 skeletal remains of a man were found in a field. 635 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,720 I say, there's no walidarid or anything. You give any 636 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,200 indication who he is. He was shot in the head. 637 00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:20,079 It's a homicide. Forty years twenty twenty six, forty years. 638 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,519 Just last week we met with Ramdville College and if 639 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,799 law enforcement out there is listening and you have unidentified remains, 640 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,240 we use contact Ramobow because they had this amazing program 641 00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:34,799 where they will hey for the development of the SNIP profile, 642 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:37,000 which is a type of DNA profile you need to 643 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,440 do genealogy, and they're students who are genealogists in training, 644 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000 put together the family tree based on those connections and 645 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,039 figure out who your person probably is. Just had a 646 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:49,680 meeting Thursday. They put it We're on a zoom just 647 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,200 like you and I are right now. They put up 648 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,119 a PowerPoint its side too. It says, here's your league 649 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,720 candidate with a name and a lack of wow because 650 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,519 love it so one hundred percent confirmed. 651 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: Not confirmed yet but not even part of the less. 652 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 4: Right so emotionally and positively overwhelming. Forty years and we've 653 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,039 been trying to figure out who this guy is. Yeah, 654 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:12,800 this poor man MO homicide investigation. If you don't know 655 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,079 who the victim is, because. 656 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 2: It's right, Yeah, you can't ever tell who killed someone 657 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,480 if you don't even know who the poor victim is 658 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,360 to start with. You have a name, Now I. 659 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,199 Speaker 4: Have a name, and everything so far in our research 660 00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:29,119 is falling into place, thankfully. He has a brother and 661 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,320 Hassan who were alive. Huh I did both of them? 662 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 2: Did they know what ever happened to them? To their 663 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,800 no idea brother. 664 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,559 Speaker 4: And he was an infant when his dad went missing. 665 00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:42,760 It was killed. He had no memory of his dad, 666 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,719 and he'd heard stories through the years like maybe he 667 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,840 was in witness protection and stuff like that. 668 00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:51,519 Speaker 2: Yeah. Boy, some of these start to sound like urban legends. 669 00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 4: After a while, Draling was a little more reliable, but 670 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,159 not much. He's like, I think the last tie my 671 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,519 son was in the late seventies, and I remember he's 672 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:02,039 out my mom and then he took off, and but 673 00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,079 he moved around a lot. He was in and out 674 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,119 of jail, and we just lost track of it. And 675 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,000 so without genealogy, we never ever would have figured out 676 00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:13,320 who this is because he was never reported as missing. 677 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,440 None of his relatives are felons, so they're not in codis, 678 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,760 so there's no DNA hit and there was nothing else 679 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,079 to go on. So without genealogy, he would still be unnamed. 680 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,000 This will be the first case at my Sheriff's office 681 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:27,559 that I can't co exult because it's still. 682 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,519 Speaker 2: An open homes Did you've identified the victim? 683 00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 4: You've identified, We've solved part of it, and be the 684 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,760 first one where we used genealogy to do again. I 685 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,199 keep saying, who wouldn't want that for their family member? 686 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,159 His brother was just overwhelmed naturally emotions, But who wouldn't 687 00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,440 want their loved one found and identified? And so now 688 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:47,920 we can give him his name back, Now we can 689 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,960 give his remains to his family, so he can have 690 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,119 a proper burial. Those things are so important. 691 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 2: They are, and this is the kind of thing where 692 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,360 you think to yourself, why would ancestry want to stand 693 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,440 in the way of giving that family answers. They have 694 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:08,760 every right to use the ancestry system to find their 695 00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:13,159 lost brother and father. I recognize that it would be 696 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,599 a significant challenge. I'm not saying it can't be done, 697 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,760 and your team might be able to actually solve the 698 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,360 homicide part of this equation. But at least we've solved 699 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,880 the missing person's side of the equation. And with all 700 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,719 due respect, no, he didn't go into witness protection or 701 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,719 anything like that. He was a homicide victim. They have 702 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,880 to live with that sadness, but at least they know 703 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,119 what happened to him, and as you said, if they 704 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,639 choose to, they'll know where his remains are. They can 705 00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:44,199 if there's a family plot or whatever. I just think 706 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,639 this is a human being. He deserved to be treated 707 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:51,920 with respect. And it took forty years the science caught 708 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,519 up here, and this is a great use of genealogy. 709 00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know why they want to forbid that. 710 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,440 What the ultimately they do is I have more of 711 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,880 law enforcement off their site. Of course, so they're gonna 712 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,880 lose a bunch of money. I'm sure one of these 713 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,000 other companies is going to develop something very similar and 714 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:09,719 then all the business will go there. 715 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it doesn't have to be that way. 716 00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:15,199 Speaker 4: So I got a lot of people say just keep 717 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,400 using it and they're never gonna know. But there's problems 718 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,199 with that when you're law enforcement, because you have ethical guidelines, right, 719 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:26,360 and you've built of follow those morally. Personally, I want 720 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,280 to say, yeah, I'm just gonna keep using it, but 721 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:31,679 I can't and my agency won't let me. So I 722 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,079 have to find an alternate, and we will. It's just 723 00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:36,920 gonna be a challenge, and I know I'm not the 724 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,719 only one in this country going through it. I'm sure 725 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,519 there's tons of others panicking and trying to figure out 726 00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:42,159 what to do. 727 00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:46,679 Speaker 2: Also, in the example you just used from Colorado Springs, 728 00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:50,920 will there be an announcement that his remains have been found? 729 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:52,480 What's the next step? 730 00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 4: So we got the brother and son's cheek swaps, and 731 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,599 then those will go to the lab and they'll do 732 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:01,559 a one to one comparison between the DNA profile from 733 00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:04,960 the skeleton to those two relatives, and then they'll pretty 734 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,800 confidently be able to say, yeah, this is the guy, 735 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:11,039 especially since we have his son. That's really good and 736 00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:13,199 then we'll then me and my partner will write on 737 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,800 the press release and there will be an announcement. But 738 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,000 we don't want to be premature because there is still 739 00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:20,400 a chance that it's not him, we think, so we 740 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,159 have to be sure DNA wise. But yes, but it'll 741 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,360 probably be a couple of months because lab work takes 742 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,719 a while. Super exciting, it's just you can't describe the feeling. 743 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,039 You can identify, I think with what I'm feeling in 744 00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:35,559 a way like when they start getting the DANI results 745 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,000 around the murders that are possibly connected to your sister, 746 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,079 I'm sure you get that same elation, Okay, And. 747 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 2: We're thrilled for the other family where eight visions and 748 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:49,519 what they call the core of what they call the 749 00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:53,800 Colonial Parkway murders, four couples. We've always said for years, 750 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,079 decades even that we would be happy with any movement whatsoever, 751 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,519 and so for us to find out and we all 752 00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:04,719 know each other that the killer of Robin Edwards and 753 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,719 David Nobling, who were one of the couples in the 754 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,199 Colonial Parkway murders, I know those people. I have spent 755 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,400 a lot of time with the Edwards and Nobling families, 756 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:18,000 I'm beyond thrilled that they finally have answers. I'm not 757 00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:21,079 saying it makes their lives perfect from here on out. 758 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,280 We all have the usual struggles in real life. It 759 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,599 makes me happy that they have answers. Our suspect Wilmer 760 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,960 is dead. But we're grown ups here. We know that 761 00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,119 it's been thirty nine years since the start of this case. 762 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:38,880 We knew there was a real good chance that with 763 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000 so many years going by, there's a very good chance 764 00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:46,400 that the offender would be deceased by the time we 765 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,880 were able to identify him, and that would probably be 766 00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,840 a good chance, good chance in the case you're describing too, 767 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,039 it's been forty years. Answers are very meaningful, and I've 768 00:39:57,079 --> 00:40:01,079 been trying to convey this to particularly the FBI, who 769 00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:04,480 are handling my sister and Rebekadowski's case. Two of the 770 00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:07,280 double homicides in our case are FBI cases because they 771 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,199 happen inside in National Park, and then two of them 772 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,159 are handled by the Virginia State Police because they happen 773 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,360 outside the National Park. But I've been trying to explain 774 00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:21,719 to the investigators over the years, answers are very meaningful. 775 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,000 If we have three hundred thousand cold case homicides here 776 00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:28,000 in the United States. First of all, I believe that 777 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:29,440 should be a national scandal. 778 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 4: It is in crisis and many other words. 779 00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. At the same time, if you think about it, 780 00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:39,239 let's just say each one of those three hundred thousand 781 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,039 people has a mom and dad and a couple siblings. 782 00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:45,639 At a minimum, they're probably related to four people. I'm 783 00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:47,840 just making this up. That means that right here in 784 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,199 America tonight, there are over a million people struggling to 785 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,000 get to sleep every single night for the rest of 786 00:40:55,079 --> 00:41:00,199 their lives, wondering what happened to their loved one. I 787 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,599 think answers it's not always about punishment. Yes, of course, 788 00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:07,320 if they identify an offender, and we do have some 789 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,000 living potential offenders in our case, would I like to 790 00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:13,920 see them in jail for the rest of their lives. Absolutely, 791 00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:19,880 Even answers are very meaningful and important. Like you say, 792 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,519 for this young woman who was one year old when 793 00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:25,800 her mom died, it was very meaningful for her to 794 00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:29,000 be provided with this information, just like the brother and 795 00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:32,000 the son of this man that was a homicide victim. 796 00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:35,239 Because even as you describe the situation, I thought to myself. Man, 797 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,400 that's going to be a long shot to solve that 798 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,880 homicide forty years later. It isn't like you got a 799 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,360 running start way back in eighty six. At the same time, 800 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,159 to know what happened to him, what happened to her, 801 00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:56,159 that's incredibly important. Absolutely, I'm shocked that ancestry feels that 802 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,719 throwing up roadblocks in the path of hardworking and investigators 803 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,119 and forensic genealogists, law enforcement and other well meaning people 804 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,079 around the country. I think it's shocking. 805 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and why could we at least get an explanation. 806 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,639 Speaker 2: Because yeah, I still I haven't I haven't heard one. 807 00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 4: Very unclear as to what happened that led them to 808 00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:20,920 make this decision. But obviously the higher up's ancestry don't 809 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,559 have any missing persons or homeside victims in their families, 810 00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:26,960 because yeah, can ie making this decision that they did. 811 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 2: Welcome to my world. I'd be happy to sit down 812 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,320 with them, and I'll be polite. 813 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 4: That's same year. 814 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: I can't thank you enough for coming on Mind over 815 00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:39,320 Murder and explaining a little bit about what's happened, perhaps 816 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,039 just as importantly, how this is going to impact cold 817 00:42:42,119 --> 00:42:45,280 case investigations in Colorado and across the country. 818 00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:48,199 Speaker 4: Everywhere it's going to stow. Some will into a cross 819 00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:50,760 for a while, So I hope. I guess they can 820 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,119 sleep fine with that at night. But I can't. And 821 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,639 I will say, if you don't mind me addressing the 822 00:42:55,639 --> 00:42:59,719 privacy concerns that often come up. Sure, I'm still in 823 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,239 your from so many people. I'm not letting law enforcement 824 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,639 out of access to my DNA. Listen to me, Your 825 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,599 DNA is not actually in any of these databases. Yes, 826 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,280 new spit in a tube and they developed a profile, 827 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,239 but that is not welling into the database. They turned 828 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,440 it into a code, which if he wrote it out 829 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,920 on a piece of paper and found all the street 830 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,639 would mean absolutely nothing. It's a code inversion that goes 831 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,519 in the database and your actual DNA is destroyed. So 832 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,159 I can't go in ancestry and take your DNA and 833 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,519 plant it out a crime scene, or give it to 834 00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:35,480 a health insurance company, or any of that. Moment that 835 00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:39,880 I'm still hearing, it's not true. Even in ancestry, you 836 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,199 can make your family tree one hundred percent completely private 837 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,559 so nobody can see it. I know this because this 838 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:47,960 is how I this is the settings I use for 839 00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:51,280 my victims family trees. If you have privacy concerns, just 840 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,199 make your tree completely private. And if you want to 841 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,039 know how to shoot me email, I'll tell you how. 842 00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:56,960 Not part it's two settings. 843 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,159 Speaker 2: But jen that they're going to clone me. You know 844 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:00,960 they're going to clone me? 845 00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 4: No, so I only join and address up privacy concerned 846 00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,119 like even have a couple family members on not why 847 00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:08,519 law enforcement see why DNA? 848 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 2: You don't have to. 849 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not seeing your DNA. 850 00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:14,079 Speaker 2: If you want to say no, just say no. 851 00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. So I don't know why Ancestry couldn't just do 852 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:17,480 an opt in. 853 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 2: Opt out type saying Heaven forbid is due? 854 00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:23,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, or people just learn how to make their treat 855 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,239 private if you don't want law enforcement to see you treat. 856 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,599 Speaker 2: But it's as simple as checking and unchecking boxes. And 857 00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,519 if you feel strongly about it, I understand, then just 858 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,440 check the box or unchecked the box that says this 859 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,840 can be used by law enforcement. And I want to 860 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,480 be clear heer. This is not currently an applicable use 861 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,320 on the Ancestry database. It's only jedmatch and family Tree 862 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,199 DNA and the off RAM database that allow this kind 863 00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:53,960 of use by law enforcement. I don't get the paranoia. 864 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:58,199 I understand there are people that distrust law enforcement. Look, 865 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,639 I've had my issues with law enforcement over the issue. 866 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,480 Any final thoughts before we wrap, How. 867 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 4: Is this going to play out in sport someday? And 868 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,199 I can already hear my ideas office saying, oh, you 869 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,599 went against the term of service of a company, but 870 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,280 means we can't use anything that you collected, like fruit 871 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,800 to the poisonous tree. But the thing is a term 872 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,079 of service is not a law. So Ancestrys hasn't created 873 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,519 a law. I don't know what does light lead to, 874 00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:26,760 and I don't even want to speculate, but I will 875 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,280 just say there's no court precedence yet that I know 876 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,239 about where an agency did go against the terms of 877 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,159 service and then what happened the judge? What a judge 878 00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:38,239 showed out. I would hope not I identify somebody or whatever. 879 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,119 But it will be interesting to see how this plays 880 00:45:40,119 --> 00:45:42,119 out in court in the future. But it could cause 881 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,079 really a ton of problems in court cases too, depending 882 00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:45,840 on the judge. 883 00:45:46,199 --> 00:45:49,079 Speaker 2: We'll be following this as we go along, and we'll 884 00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:52,239 definitely have you back for further conversations about what you're 885 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,199 doing solving cold cases and helping families get answers. 886 00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 4: Well, I very much appreciate it. Thank you. 887 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,119 Speaker 2: We'll do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 888 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,480 We'll see you next time. 889 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 890 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,320 Another Dog Productions. 891 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,199 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 892 00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 893 00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:27,679 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 894 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 895 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,079 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 896 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 897 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,760 Murders on Facebook. 898 00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 899 00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:45,199 Bill Thomas five six. 900 00:46:45,679 --> 00:47:01,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over murdero