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Speaker 3: Game over, Hello and welcome to this episode of Superhero
Speaker 3: Ethics Today, myself Matthew is joined by Jessica, our comic
Speaker 3: book expert extraordinaire, to give you a primer as we
Speaker 3: get ready for Daredevil Born Again. This will hopefully be
Speaker 3: going out right before the new season of Daredevil's coming out.
Speaker 3: You know, we know that this is going to be
Speaker 3: a new continuity, but is definitely going to be sort
Speaker 3: of very connected to the Daredevil Netflix Universe MCU. If
Speaker 3: you didn't see the Netflix MCU and you wanted to
Speaker 3: kind of get an idea of what it was at
Speaker 3: all about going into it, if you did see it
Speaker 3: a while ago, but you think there's something in your
Speaker 3: life worth doing rather than spending the next thirty six
Speaker 3: hours watching all three seasons in a day and a half.
Speaker 3: I don't really understand your life choices, but you know,
Speaker 3: there you go. You might think silly things like work
Speaker 3: or sleep or taking care of your relationships matter more
Speaker 3: than Matt Murdoch. We're here to support you and those
Speaker 3: bad choices.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So Daredebil has been in the comics since nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty four. He was created by Stanley and Bill Everett,
Speaker 5: and the show gets a lot it's the basics are
Speaker 5: very much the same. He was blinded as a child
Speaker 5: by radioactive ooze, toxic waste, weird chemicals that changes based
Speaker 5: on the decade. Fun fact, it's the same stuff that
Speaker 5: made the teenage Ninja Turtles what they are. That is
Speaker 5: Ninja Turtles Ken.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's kind of like lying on it. He's lying
Speaker 3: near like a sewer great ripped down and the dripped
Speaker 3: through the sewer grading and then teenagem ninten Girls launches
Speaker 3: from the same stuff. But anyway, go on, Yes.
Speaker 5: So whatever it is it gets in his eyes, it
Speaker 5: blinds him, but it enhances all of his other senses,
Speaker 5: so he can hear your heartbeat when you lie, and
Speaker 5: he can smell feelings, and he has basically radar, sonar
Speaker 5: or whatever. And also he's a ninja because of course
Speaker 5: he's a Nincia. He grows up becomes a lawyer with
Speaker 5: his best friend in college roommate, Foggy Nelson. They open
Speaker 5: a law firm called Nelson and Murdoch with their secretary,
Speaker 5: cam Acage. Avocados at law, and U Matt proceeds to
Speaker 5: never ever ever show up for a single court case
Speaker 5: because he's too busy being a ninja. So Foggy keeps
Speaker 5: the lights on and Matt almost dies every night, and
Speaker 5: the show gets all that pretty much exactly right.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think the toxic waste part of
Speaker 3: it is important because, like a lot of things in Marvel,
Speaker 3: the actual explanation for where powers comes from changes canonically
Speaker 3: a bunch going back and forth. And you know, in
Speaker 3: the MCU there's been mostly an attempt to keep things
Speaker 3: a lot more grounded and to have like at least
Speaker 3: like vaguely pseudoscience explanations for how things happen. But it
Speaker 3: is important to think to think about, like, you know,
Speaker 3: there are people in the MCU who have a power
Speaker 3: set that is possible within humanity. It's just really extreme.
Speaker 3: Like the Black Widows for example, are like you know,
Speaker 3: trained to the height of human ability, but it is
Speaker 3: still within the realm of human ability. The agents of
Speaker 3: shields such as like that as opposed to someone who
Speaker 3: has superhuman abilities. And while it is true in our
Speaker 3: own world that people can lose one of their senses
Speaker 3: and have a number of others become fairly accentuated. That's
Speaker 3: not what is only happening with Daredevil that there is
Speaker 3: a supernatural, not like it's mystical or magical or although
Speaker 3: he certainly has a religious crisis. Yeah, for his perspective,
Speaker 3: you know, it could be, and it's never.
Speaker 5: I mean, that knows a lot of like undead ninjas
Speaker 5: and stuff, but his his own powers are not magic.
Speaker 3: They're comic right, it's comic book science. But it is
Speaker 3: still this is not like, ohy, average blind person who's
Speaker 3: hearing gets a lot better. This is like all of
Speaker 3: that turned up eight. Yeah, so what is then kind
Speaker 3: of starting with the Netflix show? But also you said
Speaker 3: it builds on a lot of the aspects of the
Speaker 3: character from the comic books and other settings. What's really
Speaker 3: the essence of this character, Like, we have a lot
Speaker 3: of ninjas in the MCU, We have a lot of
Speaker 3: characters who go around as vigilantes and beat up bad guys.
Speaker 3: What makes Matt met what makes Daredevil daredeel?
Speaker 5: I think sort of the essence of his personality, his
Speaker 5: unique you know essence, as he's a disaster and I mean,
Speaker 5: I think all most superheroes are disasters if you dig
Speaker 5: in a little bit. But like again, this is very
Speaker 5: evident in the in the Netflix show, I expect it
Speaker 5: to be very evident in the Disney Plus show. It's
Speaker 5: very evident in the comics. But he is a character
Speaker 5: who desperately wants to do the right thing, does not
Speaker 5: know what that is, struggles very much with it, and
Speaker 5: has absolutely zero impulse control, which means that he often
Speaker 5: does what he thinks is the right thing in the moment,
Speaker 5: but perhaps is not the best thing to do ultimately.
Speaker 5: I mean, I made a joke about him, you know,
Speaker 5: never showing up in court and leaving Foggy to do
Speaker 5: all the work. But like it really is very much
Speaker 5: a case of, oh my god, a ninja thing is
Speaker 5: happening right now, I have to drop everything and go
Speaker 5: deal with it, which, like in the long run, can
Speaker 5: be harmful and unproductive, not just to his career in
Speaker 5: his personal relationships. But like he is not he is
Speaker 5: very reactive. He does not at all see the big
Speaker 5: picture or the long game. Ever, he is deeply religious.
Speaker 5: He's Catholic, and that very much informs his stories as
Speaker 5: he tries to figure out what God wants him to
Speaker 5: do and well. It informs some of his comic book stories,
Speaker 5: some of them don't hear at all, but that is
Speaker 5: very much a guiding principle, and a lot of his
Speaker 5: stories and especially the show, are very much embedded not
Speaker 5: just in New York City, but specifically in the Hell's
Speaker 5: Kitchen neighborhood of New York City, which if you're not
Speaker 5: from New York is about one square mile on the
Speaker 5: west side of Midtown Manhattan. Which it's very funny seeing
Speaker 5: people watch the show and then find out how small
Speaker 5: Hell's Kitchen actually is. And Matt keeps saying, like this city,
Speaker 5: and he's referring to a square mile of a city,
Speaker 5: and I.
Speaker 3: Would say some of his best friend grew up there.
Speaker 3: It largely does not exist. It has been very very gentrified,
Speaker 3: and like there are still parts of it, but like
Speaker 3: if you watch the movie West Side Story, West Side
Speaker 3: Story is explicitly about Hell's Kitchen when it was run
Speaker 3: by like a little north but like in that same
Speaker 3: when it was when it and it's about like Irish
Speaker 3: and Italian gangs and Puerto Rican gangs and a lot
Speaker 3: of that stuff. A lot of that area has now
Speaker 3: been gentrified a lot and cleaned up. There's still some
Speaker 3: some not great parts, but it's like I have friends
Speaker 3: who've gone to visit those places. I mean, even this
Speaker 3: is not what the show is about.
Speaker 5: No, I interned at time out New York in college.
Speaker 5: It's sort of been like two thousand and five, and
Speaker 5: their office was in Hell's Kitchen, and like just walking
Speaker 5: commuting in from New Jersey walk from Port Authority to
Speaker 5: tenth Avenue at that time was kind of dicey for
Speaker 5: like twenty year old woman, like I felt a little
Speaker 5: bit uncomfortable. And now even in the twenty years since then,
Speaker 5: it's totally gone Hell's kit I mean, the association of
Speaker 5: Daredevil with Hell's Kitchen is a thing that emerged in
Speaker 5: the eighties, specifically in comics by Frank Miller, who wrote
Speaker 5: the comic Daredevil Born Again. That the new show takes
Speaker 5: its name from. Obviously New York in the eighties was
Speaker 5: very different. And I will say that the show, the
Speaker 5: Netflix show does say that Hell's Kitchen is suffering because
Speaker 5: of the devastation from what they call the incident. Basically
Speaker 5: everything that happens in the first Avengers movie, which happens
Speaker 5: like three blocks away from the border of Hell's kitchen
Speaker 5: caused all this destruction, and really the implication is it
Speaker 5: kind of knocked that part of the city back into
Speaker 5: the eighties. But yeah, it's it's all brunch places now
Speaker 5: and the Jabbet Center. So if you go to New
Speaker 5: York Comic Con, you're.
Speaker 3: In and in a kind of really amazing way. A
Speaker 3: lot of the first season is about the attempt to
Speaker 3: gentrify Hell's Kitchen in the wake of all that's happened,
Speaker 3: and so it is very, very real in that way.
Speaker 3: I want to go back to the religious part though,
Speaker 3: because I've said before I'm a person of faith, I'm
Speaker 3: a Christian, I'm a former pastor, but I'm obviously very
Speaker 3: on the progressive side of things, and I'm generally very
Speaker 3: frustrated with how religion is treated in shows like this
Speaker 3: because either it's like the gods are literally real, like
Speaker 3: Thor and Loki are legitimate characters in this, and there's
Speaker 3: sort of an idea of like people are silly to
Speaker 3: build religions because like, you know, they're not real, they're
Speaker 3: actually they just more like people whose power set seems
Speaker 3: like god like to other people. Or if heroes are religious,
Speaker 3: they're kind of delusional. And I really appreciate that with Daredevil,
Speaker 3: it isn't approached as like there's a there's never a
Speaker 3: burning bush that talks to him. He there, God is
Speaker 3: never a character on screen. Instead, it's that, like a
Speaker 3: lot of people, he has moral questions about what he's doing,
Speaker 3: but that the moral framework that he has learned is
Speaker 3: the one that he has learned as a Catholic, and
Speaker 3: that the Catholicist, you know, and and I think that
Speaker 3: both is like the religious aspects most specifically, but like
Speaker 3: also guilt is a big deal for a lot of
Speaker 3: people who are Catholics. And a part of his story
Speaker 3: is that his father died in like the to give
Speaker 3: a very very brief summary, his father's a boxer and
Speaker 3: his father was never very good, but like had a
Speaker 3: fight that he thought he could win, and the mob
Speaker 3: asked him to throw the fight, and he decides not
Speaker 3: to because he wants his son to like experience him winning,
Speaker 3: and that he winds up getting killed by it. And
Speaker 3: you know, knowing that your father like got killed because
Speaker 3: he wanted to make you, as a ten year old proud,
Speaker 3: is going to be a little traumatic for a ten
Speaker 3: year old, And like, I'm not Atholic. I'm Christian. I
Speaker 3: know you you've spoken about it before, being being you know,
Speaker 3: one Jewish parent, one Catholic parent. I love to hear
Speaker 3: your you're like to you connect with the Catholicism specifically
Speaker 3: of this character and like the role it plays for him.
Speaker 5: I mean honest, to be honest, not at not at all,
Speaker 5: specifically the Catholicism. My father is Catholic, but I was
Speaker 5: raised Jewish, Like yeah, yeah, my mom had custody most
Speaker 5: of the time, so we celebrated Christmas. But I didn't,
Speaker 5: you know, I was never raised Catholic at all. But
Speaker 5: I will say one thing that I do appreciate about
Speaker 5: the show, like rewatching and again revisiting it, it's it's
Speaker 5: uh evident that Matt is not the only Catholic character.
Speaker 5: Like Claire Claire Temple Rosario Dawson's character is Catholic and
Speaker 5: she talks about that, and it's never stated explicitly, but
Speaker 5: Foggy is also pretty clearly Catholic, like when he references
Speaker 5: like a teacher, he says sister something or other, like
Speaker 5: he clearly went to Catholic school. And I appreciate that
Speaker 5: the show shows a range of how characters can relate
Speaker 5: to the same religion. Oh and of course Matt's priests
Speaker 5: is a major supporting character in every season, and in
Speaker 5: season three we meet his mom, who is a nun.
Speaker 5: So there's you know, it's the show focuses on. And
Speaker 5: also Frank Castle is a Catholic. The Punisher is Catholic.
Speaker 5: The show focuses on Matt's relationship to his religion, but
Speaker 5: it also shows people who have a much more casual
Speaker 5: relationship with it or are lapsed or have made it,
Speaker 5: you know, their calling. And I think it's very well rounded.
Speaker 3: In that way. Yeah, and also it tracks with the
Speaker 3: popular of Hell's Kitchen, like I said, like it is
Speaker 3: often for a long time it was very much an
Speaker 3: Irish and Italian and then like Hell, as you said,
Speaker 3: like the exact events of West Side Story are kind
Speaker 3: of the northern end, maybe a little past the border
Speaker 3: of it, but it's those same populations of you know, Irish, Italian, Polish,
Speaker 3: Puerto Rican, other Latino, all Catholic in somewhere or another.
Speaker 3: Uh comes in there. And as I said, but what
Speaker 3: I like about it is it's not it's not theological.
Speaker 3: It is someone in the third season, but but but
Speaker 3: it's much more about just that's the framework of his
Speaker 3: ethics and r I think is kind of like the
Speaker 3: framing questions certainly of the first season, but but in
Speaker 3: some ways, I think of his entire character is a
Speaker 3: question at one point that his priest puts to him
Speaker 3: because he's kind of going to confession and his priest
Speaker 3: figures out what he's doing. And they never quite explicitly
Speaker 3: say it, but its prison understands where it's coming from.
Speaker 3: And you know, one of the things that Matt is
Speaker 3: really wrestling with is does he have to kill Kingpin,
Speaker 3: the kind of main villain of the show that that
Speaker 3: he that he is dealing with in season one and
Speaker 3: then again in season three, and also just this idea
Speaker 3: of violence in general. You know that there is the
Speaker 3: part where the Daredevil name comes from, is that they
Speaker 3: talk about how the Murdoch men have the devil in
Speaker 3: them and that sometimes the devil would just come out,
Speaker 3: and which was a very like it's presented as kind
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, we're really tough, but I mean that's
Speaker 3: a very ominous statement, you know, And that's the kind
Speaker 3: of statement that's often made like about in a family
Speaker 3: where like, you know, there can be abuse, right, there
Speaker 3: can be people who are just overly violent in bad ways,
Speaker 3: but he talks about that like at times he enjoys
Speaker 3: what he's doing. And that's exactly the question the priest
Speaker 3: puts to him, is he's I'm perfectly the exact wording.
Speaker 3: I think it's he says, are you afraid that you
Speaker 3: will have to kill this man and you don't want to?
Speaker 3: Or are you afraid that you won't have to kill
Speaker 3: this man and you want to? And And I just
Speaker 3: that hits so hard because I feel like that's the
Speaker 3: heart of Batman, that's the heart of on this podcast.
Speaker 3: For remembers out in the episode, we did something specifically
Speaker 3: about vengeance and sort of where is the line between
Speaker 3: like working for justice and working for vengeance? And I
Speaker 3: think that's exactly what Matt Murrock is all about, is
Speaker 3: about I am transgressing in both Catholic law and you know,
Speaker 3: American legal law by taking violence into my own hands.
Speaker 3: But am I doing it to protect people? Or am
Speaker 3: I doing it because I had terrible things done to
Speaker 3: me by criminals and so I want to do terrible
Speaker 3: things to criminals.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And again, I think it's a big part of
Speaker 5: like Matt not having that filter of like, yes, he
Speaker 5: spends a lot of time on the show agonizing about
Speaker 5: what he will do, but he does that when he
Speaker 5: like when he's agonizing about whether or not he has
Speaker 5: to kill Wilson Fisk the Kingpin, he has no actual
Speaker 5: means to do that, so he has the space to agonize.
Speaker 5: When he's in a given situation. There is no thought,
Speaker 5: There's just that impulse and that anger. That rage is
Speaker 5: a huge part of that impulse. But he also talks about,
Speaker 5: like the reason he became Daredevil is because he has
Speaker 5: these enhanced senses. He lies in bed at night, he
Speaker 5: listens to the city and he hears how many people
Speaker 5: are hurting, and he cannot he is unable to stop
Speaker 5: himself from going out and intervening and helping. And those
Speaker 5: are sort of the two sides of that coin. That
Speaker 5: he cannot stop himself from helping good people, innocent people,
Speaker 5: or however you want to put it, and he cannot
Speaker 5: stop himself from hurting bad people. And then of course,
Speaker 5: once he's done whatever the thing is, then he agonizes
Speaker 5: about it. He feels guilty and he's like, oh, what
Speaker 5: have I done? And praise and stuff it's the cycle.
Speaker 3: And I think one of the things that really hits
Speaker 3: into it as well is that, I mean, in many ways,
Speaker 3: I feel like he's a zealous he's a crusader, and
Speaker 3: that he's kind of aware of that, and that one
Speaker 3: of the things that can happen is zelots don't often
Speaker 3: care a lot about clateral damage. And one thing, especially
Speaker 3: Season one, focuses on is that there are times whereby
Speaker 3: taking some of the actions he does, not only is
Speaker 3: he putting himself in danger, but he causes his friends
Speaker 3: in danger. He causes innocent like Claire Temple, who becomes
Speaker 3: kind of night nurse. So I don't think they're officially
Speaker 3: use that term, but she's kind of one of the
Speaker 3: anchors of the entire Netflix MCU in a very wonderful way,
Speaker 3: as this nurse who takes care of everyone and and
Speaker 3: also gets asleep with a number of really attractive people.
Speaker 3: And Luke Cage treats her a lot better than Matt
Speaker 3: Murdoch does, and God bless him for it, because they're
Speaker 3: great together.
Speaker 5: But yeah, if you're gonna pick a Defender's guy or
Speaker 5: a defenders anyone, like if you're gonna date a defender
Speaker 5: it's there's no question, it's Luke.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I think Matt Colter and god, well, who
Speaker 3: plays Matt Murdoch.
Speaker 5: I can't remember his name now, Charlie Cox.
Speaker 3: Charlie Cock, like they're both beautiful, beautiful men, but lue
Speaker 3: Cage is a little better. But like Daredevil gets connected
Speaker 3: to her because she finds him, and he's immediately like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna from your apartment start like beating people up.
Speaker 3: Oh by the way, now you have to leave for
Speaker 3: six months, like just you know, he just doesn't think
Speaker 3: about it, and she gets I think I understood, like
Speaker 3: every by the end of season one, everyone in his
Speaker 3: life is really pissed at him because.
Speaker 5: Well, she also like actually gets kidnapped by the Russian
Speaker 5: mob and beaten trying to get answers for the because
Speaker 5: they're trying to get answers on his identity. I referred
Speaker 5: to this to a friend as I was rewatching, as like, oh,
Speaker 5: I like you know how you like vaguely remember things,
Speaker 5: but you don't remember just how bad they are. I'd
Speaker 5: forgotten about Matt and Karen's shared quest to get every
Speaker 5: brown person in Hell's Kitchen killed, because yes, it's It's
Speaker 5: like how Matt's carelessness with Claire's safety.
Speaker 3: Is bad and the safety of a young again not white,
Speaker 3: brown boy who is I think, I think a neighbor
Speaker 3: of you know, I think, yeah, but who Claire takes
Speaker 3: care of them, and he also gets I mean he
Speaker 3: gets kidnapped even before Claire does. Yep.
Speaker 5: He also he gets aimed to get information on where
Speaker 5: Claire is, who then gets beaten to get information on
Speaker 5: where Matt is. But missus Cardinis, client that Nelson and
Speaker 5: Murdoch are trying to keep from getting gentrified out of
Speaker 5: her apartment, is murdered, and most egregiously, Ben Yurick, who
Speaker 5: is a reporter that Karen is working with to expose
Speaker 5: all of this, gets killed very directly as the result
Speaker 5: of Karen's complete recklessness and utter lack of concern for
Speaker 5: both Ben's safety and his feelings in that like dogged
Speaker 5: pursuit of I must have the truth and it doesn't
Speaker 5: matter what else happens. And in that way, she is
Speaker 5: very very much like Matt.
Speaker 3: I don't want to go too deep into like critiques
Speaker 3: of the seasons, you know, they're not perfectly any me,
Speaker 3: but just because I want to be focusing this momently
Speaker 3: on a primary but just to build on that. To me,
Speaker 3: the most frustrating thing about Karen's character is there's a
Speaker 3: scene in the first season where another character who's one
Speaker 3: of the bad guys is directly threatening her and talking like, look,
Speaker 3: I just want to make a deal with you, but
Speaker 3: he's kidnapped her, and it's clear that like he's gonna
Speaker 3: do terrible things to her and her family if she
Speaker 3: doesn't go along with it, and she winds up, through
Speaker 3: a series of events getting the drop on him and
Speaker 3: killing him, and she's haunted by that, And on some
Speaker 3: level I appreciate that because a lot of times in
Speaker 3: these shows, like our heroes kill bad guys and feel
Speaker 3: nothing about it, And every indication I have from you know,
Speaker 3: reading about stuff from like soldiers or cops or anyone,
Speaker 3: is like, you can kill the worst person in the world,
Speaker 3: and like the fact that you have taken another human
Speaker 3: life like that does something to a psyche and like
Speaker 3: maybe you're fine, but a lot of people are gonna
Speaker 3: have nightmares, a lot of people are gonna have a lot
Speaker 3: of trauma about it. And in this case, she's very
Speaker 3: upset about the white person who she who was like
Speaker 3: very very threatening to her. It doesn't seem like she's
Speaker 3: sad about the fact that these other people around her
Speaker 3: keep getting killed. But you're right, she doesn't seem to
Speaker 3: be personal responsible. She doesn't feel a personal accountability for it,
Speaker 3: which is frustrating.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and to be clear, it is not that that
Speaker 5: Matt and Karen are being intentionally written to not care
Speaker 5: about people of color. It's that the show overall often
Speaker 5: does not treat people of color very well, which is
Speaker 5: the thing that was fairly consistent across Netflix MCU shows,
Speaker 5: with the obvious exception of Luke Cage, like Jessica Jones,
Speaker 5: also had some real similar problems in this vein. And
Speaker 5: the less set about Iron Fist, the better. So, you know,
Speaker 5: I agree with you, like we don't need to get
Speaker 5: bogged down in critiques of the seasons, but that is
Speaker 5: a true thing, and I really really hope that the
Speaker 5: new show handles that better than they have in the past.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think so. And I do think
Speaker 3: that's one way in which one part of the gentrification
Speaker 3: of a lot of those areas is that white is
Speaker 3: white flight. And I bring them up because, like it
Speaker 3: is written at a time when there was a lot
Speaker 3: of poor white people living in those neighborhoods, and that's
Speaker 3: not the case for the most part anymore. And so
Speaker 3: like one of the things that happens is you have
Speaker 3: like Foggy and Matt and Karen as white people who
Speaker 3: were in the neighborhood, but almost everyone that they're working
Speaker 3: with as either criminals or people they are saving is
Speaker 3: a person of color, with except of the Russians. The
Speaker 3: whole other thing. But yeah, getting a little too bog
Speaker 3: down there, but just kind of pulling back to what
Speaker 3: more of kind of like what we need to understand
Speaker 3: about Matt Murrock going through this. Let's talk about him
Speaker 3: as a lawyer, because he is a lawyer, him and Foggy,
Speaker 3: Like I remember, I went into the show wanting, like
Speaker 3: I love legal dramas, I love law and order. My
Speaker 3: parents were lawyers. We watched a lot of those kind
Speaker 3: of shows growing up. And there's less of it than
Speaker 3: I would like, but I do think there is some
Speaker 3: of it, and it feels like one of the real
Speaker 3: kind of themes of the show that I think is
Speaker 3: a theme in a lot of superhero stories is can
Speaker 3: you work within the system or you have to go
Speaker 3: outside the system and so like in the as I said,
Speaker 3: part of that idea at the end, part of the
Speaker 3: that theme of season one is can he trust the
Speaker 3: legal system to deal with Kingpin or does he have
Speaker 3: to do it himself? And he winds up like using
Speaker 3: a lot of his outside the system violence and the
Speaker 3: like in order to get confessions out of people so
Speaker 3: that Kingpin can get arrested and that he kind of
Speaker 3: like he can be the lawyer side of it again.
Speaker 3: But then Kingdon brings out breaks out, and so he
Speaker 3: has to fight, you know, fight a street fight about it,
Speaker 3: and his themes come up again in season two and
Speaker 3: season three. How would you sort of say, like, how
Speaker 3: is this an important part of his character, this conflict
Speaker 3: of do I do think do I win as a
Speaker 3: lawyer or as a vigilante.
Speaker 5: But I also think it's important to note that he
Speaker 5: is specifically a defense attorney that you know, in the
Speaker 5: sixty years he's been around in the comics, he has
Speaker 5: not always only been a defense attorney. He's definitely worked
Speaker 5: on the prosecution side. For a while. In the seventies,
Speaker 5: Foggy or maybe the late sixties, Foggy was the district
Speaker 5: attorney and Matt was an Ada. There was a run
Speaker 5: where Kingpin was the mayor and Matt was deputy mayor.
Speaker 5: He's done all I mean, he's been a line cook, like,
Speaker 5: he's done all sorts off. But I do think the
Speaker 5: fact that he is specifically a defense attorney is really
Speaker 5: interesting because it puts him in a lot of these
Speaker 5: stories where he will literally catch somebody as Daredevil and
Speaker 5: then be in the position of representing them, which is
Speaker 5: something that we see in season two with The Punisher,
Speaker 5: And it really sort of highlights that that contrast and
Speaker 5: that contradiction in what he's trying to do and that
Speaker 5: he so often doesn't know what the right thing is.
Speaker 5: And yeah, I think it like, I think it helps
Speaker 5: to articulate that this is a character who is very
Speaker 5: much constantly thinking about what is the correct way to
Speaker 5: proceed and what is the right thing to do and
Speaker 5: what is the right way to do it in a
Speaker 5: way that for example, iron Man, iron Man doesn't really
Speaker 5: want to worry about these things. He's like, Oh, I
Speaker 5: have a problem, I'd better build a robot, like right,
Speaker 5: that's his only solution to anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of the heroes are looking for, like
Speaker 3: what feels like the right thing to do, and from
Speaker 3: that it is feeling but he's looking for the rule.
Speaker 3: He's looking, which I think is again a very kind
Speaker 3: of like coming from a Catholic Jesuit education, Like you know,
Speaker 3: that's very much about like what's the moral code, what's
Speaker 3: the moral thing to do? And while I said there's
Speaker 3: a lot in season two that I don't love, one
Speaker 3: thing I really like about it, especially the first half,
Speaker 3: is it kind of sets up Foggy and Punisher as
Speaker 3: these two extremes that he feels like he is somewhere
Speaker 3: in between. Because Foggy is the we have to trust
Speaker 3: the law, we have to work within the system, even
Speaker 3: if the cops are corrupt, finding the good cop, even
Speaker 3: if the judges are corrupt, finding the good judge, and
Speaker 3: he doesn't want to be that. But the Punisher is
Speaker 3: the one who keeps saying, like, you're stupid, even if
Speaker 3: you do beat them up outside the law, but to
Speaker 3: then arrest them because the pun you know, he has
Speaker 3: a line like you know, you you beat them up,
Speaker 3: they go to jail, they get out, I shoot them,
Speaker 3: they're dead, they don't get back up again. And I'm
Speaker 3: mangling the quote I'm not quoting it exactly, but they're
Speaker 3: kind of position two polls that he's trapped between.
Speaker 5: Yeah and it. I don't know. I don't have this
Speaker 5: thought fully articulated, but I feel like there's like a
Speaker 5: step further that I don't know. Daredevil story is necessarily
Speaker 5: go to because there it's like, Okay, do we follow
Speaker 5: the law or do we not follow the law? And
Speaker 5: then what if the law is corrupt? What if the
Speaker 5: cops are corrupt, what if the judges are corrupt, what
Speaker 5: if the politicians are corrupt? But it rarely interrogates it
Speaker 5: pretty much it Daredevil stories tend to position the what
Speaker 5: is right and what is following the law without corruption
Speaker 5: as the same thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's and I.
Speaker 5: Think that's another layer there that could be unpacked more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I want
Speaker 3: to talk more about that because in some way is
Speaker 3: actually one more part of one more of the kind
Speaker 3: of like foils against which he's played is Kingmin himself
Speaker 3: and Kingvin we know is gonna be in the new series,
Speaker 3: and I definite want to talk about that. But let's
Speaker 3: talk for just a minute about Matt Murrock Ladies Man,
Speaker 3: because and it's presented in this interesting way where part
Speaker 3: of it is both like, Charlie Cox is a very
Speaker 3: attractive man, Matt Murrock is attractive man, and watching Charlie
Speaker 3: Cox kiss a number of people is a very fun
Speaker 3: thing to do, and people like doing that, and I
Speaker 3: think but they also kind of make a joke of
Speaker 3: it even within the show that he is kind of
Speaker 3: a player, and he does, and Foggy is both jealous
Speaker 3: at him, but also kind of rolls his eyes at him,
Speaker 3: and like, as someone who both I will loudly advocate
Speaker 3: for my right as a disabled person. I'm an amputee
Speaker 3: for those who don't know, and for like, you know,
Speaker 3: the rights of disabled people in a in an ablest
Speaker 3: injust world. I'll also like, you know, get away with
Speaker 3: bullshit because like, you know, oh, I'm in an off
Speaker 3: I'm in a wheelchair officer. I'm so sorry, my life
Speaker 3: so hard. Please don't write me that ticket. I don't
Speaker 3: think I actually said that directly, but like I've cut
Speaker 3: to the head of a number of lines because people
Speaker 3: have lett, you know, wheelchair and so I both have
Speaker 3: this like grudging admiration but also kind of rolling my
Speaker 3: eyes that like apparently like you know, understandably, Matt doesn't
Speaker 3: see people, so he can better see a person's face
Speaker 3: if he touches it, and it's a very kind of
Speaker 3: like intimate thing to do. And as Foggy points out,
Speaker 3: he never seems to want to do that except with
Speaker 3: attractive women, and so he's kind of using this as
Speaker 3: a flirtation technique, which I'm both like, exception, uh.
Speaker 5: Huh, he did. Foggy confirms Matt did it to him too.
Speaker 5: They're very good friends.
Speaker 3: That's just that's that's fair. That's fair. But yeah, talk
Speaker 3: a bit about kind of what we saw from Netflix
Speaker 3: and the comics about the role of romance in because
Speaker 3: she has both like it's like kind of this joke
Speaker 3: that he's a player, but also that it's a sign
Speaker 3: of just how fucked up his life is that he
Speaker 3: cannot have a healthy relationship because you know, he is
Speaker 3: such like a pat like his life is the mission.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, first I will note that from what I've
Speaker 5: seen blind people saying the touching somebody's face to h
Speaker 5: to know what they look like is a myth, it's
Speaker 5: not a real thing, which I actually love because that
Speaker 5: it confirms that this is just a line. Then it's
Speaker 5: totally just looking like hilarious.
Speaker 3: And come back to my room to see my art collection.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's exactly. He literally goes to an art gallery
Speaker 5: to flirt with King Pinn's girlfriend and tells her he's
Speaker 5: getting art to impress ladies as his flirting method.
Speaker 3: Like he's yeah, he as can her take his arm
Speaker 3: and show him around?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's yeah, he absolutely uses it. He's like, can
Speaker 5: you show me? Like in the very first episode when
Speaker 5: he and Foggy is their their office for the first
Speaker 5: time and they meet their realtor, who is a woman.
Speaker 5: Matt's like, oh, can you show me around the space?
Speaker 5: And she's like oh, and like takes his arm and
Speaker 5: Foggy is rolling his eyes in the background, and it's
Speaker 5: very funny. Yeah. I think it's such a fun and
Speaker 5: interesting aspect of his personality. And it's also one that
Speaker 5: I think again goes back to, like the complete lack
Speaker 5: of impulse control, because he knows he's charming, he knows
Speaker 5: that he can generally get ill. I mean, the show
Speaker 5: just treats it as women, but I'll say people who
Speaker 5: are attracted to men and people who are attracted to
Speaker 5: Matt Murdoch specifically to go along with what he wants.
Speaker 5: If he turns on the charm, it does not always work,
Speaker 5: but I love that you can repeatedly see him pulling
Speaker 5: it out when it's not a good idea, like again,
Speaker 5: flirting with Vanessa at the art gallery, or like.
Speaker 3: She's a great character, she sees right through it and
Speaker 3: calls it out.
Speaker 5: She does, but she's like, like, it's a great scene,
Speaker 5: the way they're bantering back and forth. And I always
Speaker 5: laugh when Fisk walks in and Matt's like, oh shit, yeah,
Speaker 5: it's so good. Oh sorry if I just have to
Speaker 5: put an e on your podcast a long time now, okay, good.
Speaker 5: But like there's a bit late in season one. This
Speaker 5: is after he's had like an almost romance with Claire.
Speaker 5: They've kissed, they think that something's gonna happen there, and
Speaker 5: then she realizes how violent and ruthless and you know,
Speaker 5: out of control he is, and she's like, actually, none
Speaker 5: of that, thanks, and they break it off and then
Speaker 5: he almost dies and she shows up to patch him
Speaker 5: back together, and he tries to flirt with her again. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and it's like, buddy, what And I think he just
Speaker 5: he's like reaching for these scripts, like I've seen I've
Speaker 5: seen a number of people interpret him as being neurodivergent,
Speaker 5: possibly on the autism spectrum, and his his what you
Speaker 5: were saying before about his always looking for rules, but
Speaker 5: also the way that he falls back on scripts, on
Speaker 5: this sort of charming women thing that he does over
Speaker 5: and over again. He does it to Jessica too, like
Speaker 5: it's it's very Jessica Jones, not me Jessica, although I
Speaker 5: would let him. I have met Charlie Cox in real
Speaker 5: life and he doesn't do that. But he's extremely nice.
Speaker 5: But I think, I think that's really interesting. And then
Speaker 5: once he gets into a relationship, he's the worst goddamn
Speaker 5: boyfriend on the planet. Like he's yearrible. And there's a
Speaker 5: very funny stretch of like the back half of season
Speaker 5: two where he's like bouncing back and forth between Karen
Speaker 5: and Electra, and the question of who he's in love
Speaker 5: with seems to be whoever he had a scene with
Speaker 5: most recently, Like he cannot focus, and it's like he's
Speaker 5: constantly flirting with women and trying to get like, you know,
Speaker 5: cuddle up to them, and then flames out disastrously the
Speaker 5: minute that he gets anywhere. And I think that's extremely
Speaker 5: in character, and it'll be interesting to see where this
Speaker 5: goes in the new show because they're adding they're keeping Karen,
Speaker 5: who I hope they don't go back to a romantic
Speaker 5: plotline with the two of them, because that did not
Speaker 5: go well and I think Karen should have more self
Speaker 5: respect than to try it again. But they're introducing two
Speaker 5: new characters, Heather Glenn and Kirsten McDuffie, to the cast,
Speaker 5: and they are both former loving trysts of Matt in
Speaker 5: the comics.
Speaker 3: That'll be fun. Well, yeah, and I really love this
Speaker 3: part of his character for a couple of reasons, and
Speaker 3: one of them is for me as a disabled person.
Speaker 3: Like disabled people often presented in media as kind of
Speaker 3: like childlike or innocent, and very often there's a lot
Speaker 3: of great research on this, very strongly desexualized, and there's
Speaker 3: a lot of conversation about, like, to what extent you
Speaker 3: know Daredevil is or is not good disability representation. And
Speaker 3: while I am myself my disability is mobility and mental
Speaker 3: health related. I don't have a vision issue. I do
Speaker 3: not have a disability related division. I've heard from a
Speaker 3: number of people within that community, but also disability more generally,
Speaker 3: who got to share my attitude of like because he
Speaker 3: basically has a superpower that, for all intends and purposes,
Speaker 3: erases his disability. He's not the best disability representation by
Speaker 3: any means, but in this one regard at least him
Speaker 3: not being the perfect guy, him being kind of a
Speaker 3: player and a little bit sleazy, but in like like,
Speaker 3: he never like, there's never a moment of non consent
Speaker 3: in any way. There's never a moment where he he
Speaker 3: puts people in danger, but it's never the James Bond
Speaker 3: kind of like I'm going to seduce the girlfriend of
Speaker 3: the bad guy, and who cares that the bad guy
Speaker 3: will find out and hurt her because of this? Like,
Speaker 3: there's none of that.
Speaker 5: But they're not disrespectful.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, he's just kind of you know, like you said,
Speaker 3: he's got a line. You know, he's a bit of bloody. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, I want to defan sloodiness. There doesn't have
Speaker 3: to be like, oh yeah, a player like that, but
Speaker 3: he definitely is. And it's also one reason why, well,
Speaker 3: I don't love the representation of him in She Hulk.
Speaker 3: I do really like that, Like, you know, She Hulk
Speaker 3: is like I smash you know, gender stereotypes, and I
Speaker 3: smashed mad Murdoch like it's very much about her having
Speaker 3: been the sexual aggressor in that relationship, which is a
Speaker 3: lot of shame.
Speaker 5: Is it was everything to me. I loved him in
Speaker 5: She Hulk. I would say that the Netflix Daredevil is
Speaker 5: in keeping with like most modern portrayals of Matt Murdoch,
Speaker 5: but there is there is a version of him in
Speaker 5: the comics that is much closer to the She Hulk version,
Speaker 5: and I love that version. I so enjoyed h And
Speaker 5: I know that Charlie Cox does love that version because
Speaker 5: he's read the Mark Wade comics, and I so enjoyed
Speaker 5: getting to see him play that and knowing that he
Speaker 5: was probably having a great time.
Speaker 3: Good for him, Good for him. Yeah, and it's fun
Speaker 3: to see that, and yeah, I am. I want to
Speaker 3: get back to one of two things about the Netflix show,
Speaker 3: but I will just say, like seeing him in now
Speaker 3: kind of a bit. The fact that this show is
Speaker 3: supposed to be more specifically in the larger MCU I'm
Speaker 3: really interested in in part because it does make me
Speaker 3: think we might get more of the legal side of things,
Speaker 3: because I don't know many of the comics, but from
Speaker 3: some of the like if you've listened to this podcast
Speaker 3: at all, you know that Civil War is one of
Speaker 3: my favorite stories, both the comic book and the movie.
Speaker 3: And we don't get this in the movie of Civil
Speaker 3: War at all, but that in the comics, like a
Speaker 3: lot of the battle over the Zakovia Accords and registration
Speaker 3: and all this is fought in the courts, and Matt
Speaker 3: Murdoch is often the lawyer who is like arguing on
Speaker 3: behalf of the superheroes who are getting in legal trouble
Speaker 3: because of the accords, and Jessica Jones is the private
Speaker 3: investigator working for him. Like it's just all these characters
Speaker 3: get played into that. But yeah, so like I like
Speaker 3: the Netflix version a lot more. I'm dark and EMO.
Speaker 3: I want the darken Emo. But the fun player part
Speaker 3: with Sheeahaulk is great too, And I wouldn't mind if
Speaker 3: there's a little If we can find a way to
Speaker 3: make it congruous with each other, I'd be very happy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I will say, I don't know how much legal
Speaker 5: stuff there will be in the new show. It doesn't
Speaker 5: seem like there is a comic called Daredevil Born Again,
Speaker 5: which I think I mentioned earlier. This the new show
Speaker 5: doesn't seem to have anything to do with that plot wise,
Speaker 5: like they seem to be, except for the fact that
Speaker 5: Kingpin is a major character. But one of the characters
Speaker 5: I mentioned is the love interests of Matt's in the comics.
Speaker 5: Kirsen McDuffie is a lawyer as well, so and we
Speaker 5: have Dad wise lost stuff.
Speaker 3: I think this was before she Hulk, but either way,
Speaker 3: one of his other introductions to the MCU is that
Speaker 3: he was the lawyer for Peter Parker Spider Man in
Speaker 3: No Way Home, So you know.
Speaker 5: Some of that, I will say watching some of that
Speaker 5: Punisher trial, particularly the part where he asks he's supposed
Speaker 5: to question Frank and he asks the judge for permission
Speaker 5: to treat his own as a hostile witness, makes a
Speaker 5: speech and then says no further questions, I was like,
Speaker 5: you gotta stop lying a teenagers. You are not a
Speaker 5: really good lawyer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all Foggy, Yeah, Foggy does most of the
Speaker 3: work there, and Matt comes very close to sabotaging it.
Speaker 3: But you know, he catches the brick that almost hits
Speaker 3: Peter Parker because he's a very good lawyer.
Speaker 5: He learned that at Columbia Laws it's brick catching one
Speaker 5: oh one. It's a really important class there.
Speaker 3: It's true, it's true. Well, the last thing then I
Speaker 3: really wanted to bring in because I think it is
Speaker 3: such a part of the Netflix MCU version of Daredevil
Speaker 3: is Kingpin. I partially I think, like I think Charlie
Speaker 3: Cox is a very good actor. If you told me
Speaker 3: there's one person who gets to win an Emmy for Daredevil,
Speaker 3: I would say, thank you, Charlie Cox. But Vincent Deinofrio
Speaker 3: is taking this home. He plays Kingpin in what is
Speaker 3: I think, just a phenomenal performance and really make they
Speaker 3: really kind of highlight the idea of how similar Kingpin
Speaker 3: is today Daredevil in that both of them had traumatic
Speaker 3: childhoods that involve the deaths of their father due to
Speaker 3: the criminal underbelly of this part of the city. Very
Speaker 3: different involvements in it, though, And I do think that
Speaker 3: while I know in other portrayals, Kingpin is just like
Speaker 3: a guy who wants to get lots of money and
Speaker 3: have lots of control in the Netflix MCU, and I
Speaker 3: think in some of the comics he is very much
Speaker 3: presented as he has just as much of a protective
Speaker 3: love for his city, New York City, as Matt does,
Speaker 3: but he has a different version. A. He has a
Speaker 3: different version of how to protect his city, and B
Speaker 3: he's a lot more willing to hurt other people intentionally
Speaker 3: to get it done. Talk a bit about how you
Speaker 3: saw Daredevil, how you saw Kingpin in the Daredevil story
Speaker 3: and his importance in relation to Daredevil and kind of
Speaker 3: what that might look like going forward.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so Kingpin is absolutely the number one
Speaker 5: Daredevil villain from the comics. He's the most important Daredevil villa,
Speaker 5: which is funny because he's actually originally a Spider Man villain,
Speaker 5: and he continues to be a Spider Man villain to
Speaker 5: this day, Like he fights Spider Man as much as
Speaker 5: he fights Daredevil. But yeah, there's there's no contest. Like
Speaker 5: if you're asking, like, who are the most important Daredevil villains,
Speaker 5: it's Kingpin. And then you go like way further down
Speaker 5: the ladder and you're like, I guess the hand, and
Speaker 5: then you're like, I don't know stilt Man, which I
Speaker 5: cannot believe We're getting a fourth season. We have still
Speaker 5: not seen stilt Man. I'm furious and I would like
Speaker 5: all the money for my Disney Plus subscription back. But
Speaker 5: he's he's a got a suit that it has like
Speaker 5: extendo legs that make him really tall.
Speaker 3: Move right along.
Speaker 5: He's amazing anyway. Yeah, I think I think giving Kingpin
Speaker 5: a motivation does make for good storytelling, although I don't
Speaker 5: think it necessarily makes it more believable, or maybe it's
Speaker 5: I don't know. I had this debate with a friend
Speaker 5: the other day where I was like, I don't think
Speaker 5: villains need a reason to be greedy and cruel because
Speaker 5: I can see what's happening in our world. And she
Speaker 5: was like, yeah, but that doesn't work for a story,
Speaker 5: even if it's true in real life. And I do.
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously it's perfectly fine for most super villains
Speaker 5: in comics, but I do think that it adds nuance
Speaker 5: to fisks portrayal in the comics that yes, he is
Speaker 5: he very much. I'm gonna alter the phrasing of what
Speaker 5: you said, he very much believes that he is doing
Speaker 5: something for the good of Hell's Kitchen. I don't know
Speaker 5: that I would agree that he loves Hell's Kitchen, or
Speaker 5: my question is, what is it about Hell's Kitchen that
Speaker 5: he loves? Because he seems to want to raise it
Speaker 5: to the ground and kill everybody in it, and so
Speaker 5: it's not the buildings, that it's not the people, but
Speaker 5: he has convinced himself that he does, and that is
Speaker 5: very compelling. I will say I did get kind of tired.
Speaker 6: Of him after a while, especially in season two, when
Speaker 6: they bring him in for two episodes even though he's
Speaker 6: not really a character in that season, and then they
Speaker 6: just let him like give a bunch of really long
Speaker 6: speeches that don't go anywhere, and it feel like the
Speaker 6: writers were so enamored with their own writing for him
Speaker 6: and with Vincentinofrio's performance that they just kind of they.
Speaker 5: Gave it way more air than it needed. Obviously, he
Speaker 5: is in fact a major character in season three, and
Speaker 5: so he's like earned his position there. It's a different situation,
Speaker 5: but I I do hope that they remember that Matt
Speaker 5: Murdoch is the main character and don't like because I
Speaker 5: think sometimes the show forgets that and it thinks the
Speaker 5: Kingpin is or it thinks the Punisher is and they're not.
Speaker 5: And I will also say, and I feel like you
Speaker 5: and I have had this conversation, I'm real tired of
Speaker 5: men with daddy issues. I'm real tired of villain saying
Speaker 5: we're not so different you and I, which I did
Speaker 5: note at least one character saying in at least once
Speaker 5: in every season. Fisk says it in season one, Frank
Speaker 5: says it in season two. I think uh, Sigourney Weaver
Speaker 5: says it to Iron Fist and Defenders. I was like, okay, enough,
Speaker 5: we're all the same. I get it, kumbayah, stop it.
Speaker 3: So if the version, I got a bad feeling about this.
Speaker 5: Exactly, and like, I trust in Santinofrio. I think he'll
Speaker 5: do a good job, but I think that the character
Speaker 5: is more effective and has more impact when he is
Speaker 5: used with restraint.
Speaker 3: That's fair, That's fair, I'll I will say I saw
Speaker 3: season one very differently, and probably because I had no
Speaker 3: connection to Daredevil before I saw season one.
Speaker 5: I don't need either that. I started reading the comics
Speaker 5: because I like the show so much.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, because what I was gonna say is, I
Speaker 3: do think that in many way, like to me, season
Speaker 3: one is two origin stories. It is the origin story
Speaker 3: of Kingpin and the origin story of Matt Murdoch, and like, yes,
Speaker 3: I think they're both great actors. But if you told
Speaker 3: me Vincentinofrio is going to get best Supporting Actor Emmy,
Speaker 3: I'd be like, no, No, he's just best actor because
Speaker 3: I think he is, like, is just as much his
Speaker 3: story as Daredevil's story. And I don't mind that because
Speaker 3: I think it's so good. I do think you're right.
Speaker 3: By season three it gets a little much. And in
Speaker 3: season two I think an objection to how invested they
Speaker 3: got in writing uh, Derek Kingpin into season two is
Speaker 3: that they forgot to write an actual compelling villain prom
Speaker 3: most of season two into it. So that was kind
Speaker 3: of bad. But that that's a topic of another car bick.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I have we can have our extremely negative
Speaker 5: and here are all the problems episode another time.
Speaker 3: Well, although actually I think what you did bring up
Speaker 3: as forgive me. You volunteered yourself now for the members
Speaker 3: only episodes, which, by the way, you can have a
Speaker 3: member for only five dollars a month fifty five dollars
Speaker 3: a year. You get every content, you get bonus content,
Speaker 3: and you get full bonus episodes, and you get to
Speaker 3: help us keep the lights on. Please look at the
Speaker 3: show note. Please look at the.
Speaker 5: Link that sounds like a bargain to me, right, please.
Speaker 3: Look at the link in the show notes. But in
Speaker 3: those the bonus episodes that are fully just remembers each time,
Speaker 3: we're looking at kind of a core question. And so
Speaker 3: we looked at like accountability and civil war, and we
Speaker 3: looked at like Vengeance's motivation. And one of the ones
Speaker 3: actually that now I want to do is should criminals
Speaker 3: should villains be relatable? Because I'm very big on the
Speaker 3: idea that, like, because I do think like, even in
Speaker 3: our own world, I think there is some explanation to
Speaker 3: how the villains of our world became the greedy, horrible
Speaker 3: people that they are. Uh and yes, this in part
Speaker 3: because I recently watched The Apprentice, but you know, also stories, right,
Speaker 3: but also just but yeah, that being said, like I
Speaker 3: think it's a very ancient question to have, and and
Speaker 3: I really do love that about Kingpin and so let
Speaker 3: me like get so, yeah, I think that'd be a
Speaker 3: really fun episode to have about like should every villain
Speaker 3: have it a relatable backstory or should they all be?
Speaker 3: You should at least some of them be, just like mohaha,
Speaker 3: Ultimate Power. Let's talk about Vanessa then, because Vanessa, I
Speaker 3: think is one of the most interesting characters. She is
Speaker 3: the woman who Kingpin uh is his girlfriend becomes his
Speaker 3: wife by the three season. And this is a very
Speaker 3: different portrayal than we've seen her in a lot of
Speaker 3: other things. And my understanding is that this is a
Speaker 3: little unique. Like to give another perspective, if you've watched
Speaker 3: the Spider Verse movies, In the first Spider Verse movie,
Speaker 3: Kingpin is the villain, but part of what he's doing
Speaker 3: is that in that movie, Vanessa and his child have
Speaker 3: left him because they've seen his his violence, and so
Speaker 3: they're trying to reverse time so that like they die.
Speaker 5: Too, Like the they like got hit by a car
Speaker 5: while they were leaving him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like running away from him and got
Speaker 3: hit by a car. And yeah, so he wants to
Speaker 3: go back in time. But in other words, like whereas
Speaker 3: in this, like Vanessa is like a true believer in
Speaker 3: his vision and like stands by him. And what do
Speaker 3: you think of the way Vanessa is portrayed in that?
Speaker 3: And I would you want to see her in this?
Speaker 5: So I'm actually gonna contradict myself here because my frustration
Speaker 5: with Vanessa is that I don't feel like we know
Speaker 5: why she's doing this or why she is the way
Speaker 5: she is, Like, we get that whole We get a
Speaker 5: whole episode dedicated to Fisk's backstory, and we have flashbacks
Speaker 5: to him as a child, and it's all setting up
Speaker 5: like who he is and how he became the person
Speaker 5: that he is, and he meets this woman who seems
Speaker 5: to be a normal person. He's like, by the way,
Speaker 5: I'm committing murder on a massive scale, and she's like, great,
Speaker 5: I'm so on board, and there's no like I think
Speaker 5: the actress Isolette, sure if I'm pronouncing that right. She's
Speaker 5: brilliant and she makes the character feel so complete and
Speaker 5: so magnetic. But I'm like, lady, what, why are you
Speaker 5: okay with this? And I would love to know more
Speaker 5: about that, and I'm frustrated that we don't in terms
Speaker 5: of other Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Just say something on that. This may be because I
Speaker 3: re watched the show in November of last year, but
Speaker 3: to me, like there is a mystery of it. It's
Speaker 3: the same mystery of how do so many people vote
Speaker 3: for Trump? Like because more than anything, it's that she
Speaker 3: she doesn't want to be afraid she does and she
Speaker 3: like feels like he is the man who will make
Speaker 3: her not have to be afraid, and I it's both
Speaker 3: like totally baffling, but I also feel like I have
Speaker 3: to believe what she's telling me of why she likes him,
Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, I agree with It's like, can't
Speaker 3: you see through this? Can't you see that he is
Speaker 3: just as dangerous. But there's a whole storyline of where
Speaker 3: she knows that he's a dangerous person and she gives
Speaker 3: him her gun. She learns like she doesn't have to
Speaker 3: be afraid with him.
Speaker 7: And it's both I never got the sense that she
Speaker 7: was afraid before, Like, I that's fair, Like that's an
Speaker 7: ex I think that's a it would work, And I
Speaker 7: don't know that they did the work to.
Speaker 3: Set that up well. And here's where the like connection
Speaker 3: to the modern politics when I'm like, what are you
Speaker 3: people so afraid of? Like let people use bad rooms,
Speaker 3: let people come to this country, Like that's kind of
Speaker 3: where I was coming from, is that like the fear
Speaker 3: isn't actually justified, but someone can still speak to it.
Speaker 3: But anyway, moving away from my own feelings, in.
Speaker 5: Terms of how she's been portrayed, I don't know that
Speaker 5: she's been in other media, necessarily outside of this show
Speaker 5: and Spider Verse, but in the comics she's actually totally
Speaker 5: the opposite because when Sophisk is a Spider Man villain
Speaker 5: and then he meets Vanessa and she doesn't want him
Speaker 5: to be involved in crime, so he gives it up.
Speaker 5: He quits like he's he's done, He's entirely done, and
Speaker 5: then he has to come back to or she they're
Speaker 5: living I don't know, I don't remember Italy somewhere, they're
Speaker 5: living out of America. She has to come back to
Speaker 5: New York for whatever reason, and some of the Fisk's
Speaker 5: enemies try to kidnap her, and in the ensuing brew haha,
Speaker 5: she is seemingly killed, and that is what triggers his
Speaker 5: return to being the kingpin, and that is what triggers
Speaker 5: him like that's the first time he appears in Dareduvil comics,
Speaker 5: that storyline, that is what puts him back on this scene.
Speaker 5: And so she is she is totally opposed to his
Speaker 5: criminal enterprise. She is, of course not dead. She ended
Speaker 5: up in the sewers. She is now the it's implied
Speaker 5: sex slave of the sewer king who rules the sewer people.
Speaker 5: It's very messed up. Matt rescues her. It's a whole thing,
Speaker 5: and then she some like twenty years later, there's another
Speaker 5: fascinating story with her where they have a son that
Speaker 5: who we see in Spider verse, Richard, who tries to
Speaker 5: kill Fisk because that family is not healthy, and so
Speaker 5: Vanessa has him killed. She's like, I love you, but
Speaker 5: you went after my husband, so now I'm killing you,
Speaker 5: even though you're my son. And then there is a
Speaker 5: very very very long storyline where like Matt's life is
Speaker 5: falling apart in every single possible way, and there's one
Speaker 5: mastermind at the heart of it, and it turns out
Speaker 5: to be Vanessa, and she's like, I could have had
Speaker 5: a happy life with my husband if it hadn't been
Speaker 5: for you screwing everything up. So I screwed everything up
Speaker 5: for you. You're welcome. By the way, I'm dying of cancer.
Speaker 5: Goodbye forever I think she dies, and he's like, huh.
Speaker 3: I can support women's rights and women's wrongs when it
Speaker 3: comes to Vanessa.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean she is a great character in the comic.
Speaker 5: She is fascinating. Again. The Sewer People's story is very
Speaker 5: gross and upsetting, but like when she comes back in
Speaker 5: the two thousands, even if it is very brief, she
Speaker 5: just and this I think is something that Isoletzer's performance
Speaker 5: really captures. She exudes power, yeahink, she's on the page
Speaker 5: or on the screen, there is something about her like
Speaker 5: this is a woman who is totally in control of
Speaker 5: herself and what she's doing and will always figure something
Speaker 5: out and stay one step ahead. And that is what
Speaker 5: makes her so so compelling and so magnetic.
Speaker 3: And I will say that that goes into I think
Speaker 3: one of the things that again I think maybe I
Speaker 3: get the readation too much credit, but I think is
Speaker 3: very intentional is we do see the romance between her
Speaker 3: and Fisk developed, and Fisk as a romantic character is
Speaker 3: one hundred million miles different from Murdoch and he's it's
Speaker 3: some of I think Vincent Binafia's best acting. He's he's
Speaker 3: awkward with her, he's he's and he is so heartbreakingly vulnerable.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's part of why I fell
Speaker 3: in love with the character. And then you watch him
Speaker 3: do these horrible, terrible things. But it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: like Matt Murdoch has Risen and Dnafio, like you know,
Speaker 3: Wilson Fisk does not and I do think that it's
Speaker 3: like I don't necessarily think it's that like like Matt
Speaker 3: goes after vulnerable women in any kind of like a
Speaker 3: predatory way, but I do think that there's an extent
Speaker 3: to which, like part of why Vanessa just laughs him off,
Speaker 3: like she banters with him, but it's just not falling
Speaker 3: forward at all, is very much the reason why she's
Speaker 3: so much more taken in by Fisk in his vulnerability.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a wonderful contrast because to me,
Speaker 3: it's it's not saying that Fisk is better than Matt.
Speaker 3: Matt is genuinely trying to do right things, and Fisk
Speaker 3: is a monster in a lot of ways. Like we
Speaker 3: see him what Matt's devil is that they'll punch people
Speaker 3: a lot. Fisk does things with a car door that
Speaker 3: just I don't want to spoil, but everyone knows. Anyone
Speaker 3: it knows what I'm talking about, and it's it's brutal.
Speaker 3: And but also like to think the times that Fisk
Speaker 3: is the most brutal is when his mother is threatened,
Speaker 3: or when the Vanessa is threatened, or when I think
Speaker 3: him in Hawkeye is very bad. I think him and
Speaker 3: Echo is good, but also again where his family is threatened,
Speaker 3: and just with.
Speaker 5: The car door scene, that's less that she's threatening, more
Speaker 5: that he was embarrassed. And he says, you embarrass me
Speaker 5: in front of her.
Speaker 3: Like that's fair, that's fair. I'm more thinking about like
Speaker 3: what happens later when again, like when Karen gets Manilra
Speaker 3: killed and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and like
Speaker 3: it's a very sort of like the masculine, like I
Speaker 3: possess these people and so you're threatening me and embarrassing
Speaker 3: me and stuff like that exactly.
Speaker 5: Although to give him credit, he I do think he
Speaker 5: is extremely respectful towards Vanessa, Like he is very he
Speaker 5: listens to her boundaries. He even listens to like sometimes
Speaker 5: very in the very early interactions between them, she'll be
Speaker 5: bantering with him and he'll take it as a rejection
Speaker 5: and sort of like very politely back off and she
Speaker 5: has to be like no, no, no, I was kidding, It's okay,
Speaker 5: keep going, which you're right, it's very sweet. And yeah,
Speaker 5: he's he's a monster, but he's also talking to a
Speaker 5: girl he likes, and he's not good at it, but
Speaker 5: it's working.
Speaker 3: It's so like and he also was incredibly rich. So
Speaker 3: he does things like I just I rented out the
Speaker 3: whole restaurant because I wanted to have a nice dinner
Speaker 3: with you, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but again it doesn't come off like a douchebag
Speaker 5: move because he did it because he can't like be
Speaker 5: around Like when he's like, yeah, and I got this
Speaker 5: really nice bottle of wine for you, and she's like, wow,
Speaker 5: you did a good job picking it, and he's like,
Speaker 5: I didn't pick it. It was my employee, who I
Speaker 5: guess is also my only friend. Yeah, he doesn't die
Speaker 5: by the end of the show.
Speaker 3: And again another part at least is like I'm going
Speaker 3: to go into a homicidal rage because you did something
Speaker 3: mean to one of my people, includes that guy who's male. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So it's fun fun fact about Wesley, who's like a
Speaker 5: major character in season one, he shows up only very
Speaker 5: briefly in like an early Frank Miller Fisk story. He's
Speaker 5: like a random minion and he gets killed off like
Speaker 5: in that story. Like, Wesley is not a long running character.
Speaker 5: He's just like a it's just a name that they
Speaker 5: grabbed from the comics. But then after the show, after
Speaker 5: this show, they gave fisca new Wesley, and I'm like,
Speaker 5: does he just call everybody Wesley know just He's like,
Speaker 5: I'm not going to learn your name. Your name is
Speaker 5: just Wesley. And then if anybody out there has seen
Speaker 5: Clone High, it's it's a I'm not going to explain it,
Speaker 5: but it's a very funny joke. If you've seen Clone High.
Speaker 3: I haven't, but I've heard good things. Well, all right,
Speaker 3: there's probably a good place to wrap up. We are
Speaker 3: gonna have a bonus section for our members again, five
Speaker 3: dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. We're going
Speaker 3: to talk about some other Netflix MCU characters who might
Speaker 3: come into the full MCU itself, but Jessica any other
Speaker 3: the last things that people need to know if they're
Speaker 3: gonna start watching Daredevil board again.
Speaker 5: I feel like we haven't talked enough about my very
Speaker 5: favorite character, Foggy Nelson.
Speaker 3: Yes, let's talk Foggy.
Speaker 5: I mean, he's the light of my life. He's the
Speaker 5: only reason that Matt Murdoch eats booth because he's the
Speaker 5: one who makes the money and because he probably orders
Speaker 5: Matt's groceries for him, not because Matt is incapable. He
Speaker 5: is obviously extremely capable. He just forgets to do stuff.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 5: I love Foggy. I think Elden Henson's portrayal of him
Speaker 5: is fantastic. I'm very worried they're going to kill him
Speaker 5: off and I'll cry.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think Foggy is such an important character
Speaker 3: for him, and in part because I do think in
Speaker 3: a lot of these shows, they have a male best
Speaker 3: friend and all they ever really do is banter with
Speaker 3: each other, and the male best friend might be a
Speaker 3: little mad at him for like half an episode when
Speaker 3: like he finds out that he's really the superhero, but really,
Speaker 3: you know, otherwise they're fine. You know, like think about
Speaker 3: like Iron Man, like, yeah, uh, Brod Brody, thank you,
Speaker 3: Rody Sody. Yeah, Roady like gets kind of mad at
Speaker 3: at Tony Stark. But really it's Pepper Potts who he
Speaker 3: has to have this like deep relationship to finding discussion
Speaker 3: when she finds out who he is and like all
Speaker 3: this stuff, and yeah, he gaslights Karen Page longer than
Speaker 3: I would have liked him too. But it's Matt Murdoch
Speaker 3: who finds it's Foggy who finds out that Matt Murdoch
Speaker 3: is Daredevil and they have this like entire episode and
Speaker 3: really going on for the whole rest of the show,
Speaker 3: and like there needs to be a lot more homosexuality
Speaker 3: in TV, and a lot more male homosexuality, and I'm
Speaker 3: always okay with that, But I also think that one
Speaker 3: of the things that suffers a lot is that we
Speaker 3: very rarely see emotional, important male friendship, and seeing this
Speaker 3: relationship that I think, you know, fan fiction writers are
Speaker 3: going to take it in a romantic direction, and I've
Speaker 3: no problem with that, but I'm very much happy with
Speaker 3: the canon that they're just very good friends who love
Speaker 3: each other very much, and that Foggy feels this very
Speaker 3: deep sense of betrayal when Matt, you know, he finds
Speaker 3: out about this, and also the sense of like, you know,
Speaker 3: he understands why Matt wants to do this, but he's
Speaker 3: mad in part because he's like, my life is better
Speaker 3: with you in it, and you are risking that every day,
Speaker 3: and I hate that, and I just it made me
Speaker 3: really Foggy is really the moral heart and soul of
Speaker 3: the show, like the moral center of the show in
Speaker 3: a way that I love. But just also the importance
Speaker 3: that the relationship between the two is really a big
Speaker 3: part of what made me love it. I'm so i'mally
Speaker 3: looking forward to seeing foggying me back and hoping we
Speaker 3: get more of that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's absolutely He's Matt's rock. He is in the
Speaker 5: show and he is in the comics. He's the only
Speaker 5: character who has been there since day one and is
Speaker 5: still there now, like he was in Daredevil number one
Speaker 5: and he's still I mean, they're in a fight right
Speaker 5: now in the comics, like kur in the comics that
Speaker 5: are coming out as we speak, Foggy is possessed by
Speaker 5: a demon and they are in a fight because of
Speaker 5: how Matt went to Hell to rescue Foggy and then
Speaker 5: stayed behind and died and then came back with amnesia
Speaker 5: and was a priest and didn't tell Foggy he was back.
Speaker 5: But a lot of friends to things like that. This
Speaker 5: is very common.
Speaker 3: But yeah, he.
Speaker 5: Is such a vital component to Daredevil, to Matt's life.
Speaker 5: And yeah, like the I mean, especially given your love
Speaker 5: of ethical quandaries and superhero media, like the fact that
Speaker 5: they have this lengthy fight that is like, I am
Speaker 5: so upset that you hid this from me. I am
Speaker 5: so upset that you couldn't trust me. I am so
Speaker 5: upset that you made me complicit in all of your
Speaker 5: law breaking as your legal partner. Like the the intro
Speaker 5: to seees of, like the way that their lives are intertwined,
Speaker 5: like personally professionally are so interesting. Yeah, yeah, I'm a foggy.
Speaker 5: Nelson is literally my favorite Marvel character, like any actual superhero.
Speaker 3: I love him, and the show recognizes that he's got
Speaker 3: some game too. It's a very different kind of riz,
Speaker 3: but he's got some riz to and even.
Speaker 5: And Mary, they're great together and he can kind.
Speaker 3: Of bring her back from the depths, and Andrews don't
Speaker 3: say one of the things. And again, kind of just
Speaker 3: the gender of it all really matters to me. The
Speaker 3: dynamic of two best friends, one of whom he is
Speaker 3: a lot more conventionally attractive and a lot more gregarious
Speaker 3: and a lot more successful, and so the other one
Speaker 3: is always in their shadow. That's a dynamic that we've
Speaker 3: seen a lot explored between two women, or two high
Speaker 3: school girls, or like Yellow Jackets is a fantastic exploration
Speaker 3: of it. I don't see it explore wicked. Yeah, another one.
Speaker 3: I don't really see it explored between two men very often,
Speaker 3: And granted it matters to me because this was very
Speaker 3: much my high school dynamic with my best friend, who
Speaker 3: is still one of my best friends, and I love
Speaker 3: them dearly. But if the two of us walked into
Speaker 3: a room, I'm always in his shadow. And so I
Speaker 3: start talking, and I maybe that's why I talk so much.
Speaker 5: But who knows which is also the foggy thing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly, And yeah, and so foggy being kind
Speaker 3: of the more goofy one and the more laughable one.
Speaker 3: But therefore everyone being like, who's that cute guy brooding
Speaker 3: in the corner? You know that I just don't see
Speaker 3: that dynamic as much in male friendship, but I think
Speaker 3: it very much exists, and so yeah, I just imprinted
Speaker 3: on this relationship so much. Well, thank you so much, Jessica.
Speaker 3: To our listeners who haven't gotten to explore a lot
Speaker 3: more your thinking, I know, there's a lot of places
Speaker 3: online and in published book where they can find your
Speaker 3: words and your thoughts on everything from Daredevil in his
Speaker 3: relationships to Squirrel Girl and her many outfits over the years.
Speaker 3: Where can they find the works of Jessica?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I do a lot of writing about comics
Speaker 5: for Kariat, so you can check out my writing there.
Speaker 5: I will have an article coming out, I believe it's
Speaker 5: scheduled for March eighteenth, Comics to read if you're watching
Speaker 5: the new Daredevil show, So that'll have some recommendations for
Speaker 5: comics that are similar to the show or that are
Speaker 5: just like really good reads, if you want to check
Speaker 5: that out. And yeah, I also have some published work
Speaker 5: in a book. I have a short story in Swordstone Table,
Speaker 5: which is an anthology of Arthurian retellings that came out
Speaker 5: from Vintage Books a couple of years ago, and you
Speaker 5: should check it out because there's a lot of really
Speaker 5: cool stories in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, definitely very worth getting and we should have
Speaker 3: links to all that in the show notes. So, Jessica,
Speaker 3: thank you so much to our listeners. Thank you so
Speaker 3: much to our members. Stick around a little bit more.
Speaker 3: We'll have a little bit more. Jessica and everyone else
Speaker 3: made the fourth to it.
Speaker 7: What are you have done