Speaker 1: And now Audio Theater Central.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome to Audio Theater Central. This is the show
that explores family friendly audio drama through news, reviews and interviews.
I'm your host, JD. Sutter. This is episode two zero eight.
Welcome to twenty twenty five. Happy New Year. We've got
a great episode lined up for you. In just a
little bit. We're going to be talking with composer Jared
di Pascual about some of the projects that he's been
working on recently and some he's going to be working
on later in this year. A lot to talk about
with this amazing composer, so stick around for that. Also,
heads up, there's going to be a lot of feedback
coming in the next episode. Just didn't have time to
prep my responses to everything for this episode, so we'll
be getting to all of that later. But we do
have some audio drama updates to get to in just
a moment. But before we do that, just wanted to
say a huge thank you to the people who recently
signed up for ATC. Backstage. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
There were a few of you who joined after the
last episode, and I thank you very much. There were
also a couple of you who sent in a PayPal donation,
much much appreciated. Still working on the failed hard drive issue.
The software solutions that I was trying have all failed me,
so we're going to move on to other options. So
that is an ongoing issue. But I just wanted to
give you a little quick update. Now, I do have
one piece of feedback that I want to get to
in this episode, so let's jump into it. So what
do you think of the show? Please leave your message
after the chowne Hi, Audi Theater Central.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, this is awesome preaching hell about j D
Royan Andrew minum It Victoria. Now, yesterday I received a
letter from you think man, no time to chart. I've
got an email. This another package for me today. No,
it's actually just your mail.
Speaker 2: Well, if you would like to get in touch with us,
you can always do that by emailing feedback at Audio
Theatercentral dot com, comment on the show notes, or you
consider text or leave a voicemail at our feedback hotline
which is six two three six eight eight two seven
seven zero again six three six eight eight two seven
seven zero. Now, I just wanted to respond to Jeremy's email,
in particular because he responded specifically to my question from
the last episode. So but first, he says, I really
enjoyed the last couple of episodes of the ATC podcast.
I will start with the episode of the Live AIO show.
I really enjoyed the episode, even though the sound quality
wasn't great, and yes, in that episode there were some
on site recordings that we did in the car and
just around that just were not the best quality, but
I thought it was still good content to share with you,
to give you a little bit of a feeling of
what it was like to be at the event. And
Jeremy said, it made me feel like I was there
even though I didn't attend the show. I like the
stories that all three of you told about the event.
I'm glad that you did the episode and all of
you were able to attend the show and the activities
surrounding the show. Thank you, Jeremy. I'm so glad that
that worked out. He also said about the Hardy Boys
audio drama that you're involved with, I am really excited
to hear this production and I will be looking forward
to hearing more details as they become available. The Hardy
Boys were some of my favorite mysteries growing up and
I can relate to that. They were mine as well.
And things are moving forward on that project a little
slower than we would have liked, but that's the way
it goes sometimes, but we hope to be making some
cast announcements very very soon. On that, Jeremy continues, I'm
really excited that there are going to be more Jake
Muller Adventures coming out soon. It was great hearing from
Darby Kern and Micah about this. They do a great
job with audio drama. And finally, he says, if I
had to pick three favorite audio dramas in twenty twenty four,
I would have to pick the Pause and Tails episodes
that came out this year, the Brinkman Adventures I started
listening to this show in September of this year, and
the Adventures and Odyssey episodes that came out this year.
And I just have to say, you can't go wrong
with any of those options. They're all great. So I'm
so glad that we had some really cool stuff that
came out in twenty twenty four, and there are some
really cool stuff coming in twenty twenty five as well,
so lots to look forward to, and Jeremy is one
of our most frequent emailers, and he always ends his
emails with your loyal fan and loyal listener, Jeremy. So
huge thanks, Jeremy. Really appreciate all the feedback into all
of the interaction over the years. Thank you so much
for continuing to listen to ATC. Really appreciate it. Well,
let's move into some updates.
Speaker 1: We inter up this program to bring you a special
report news tonight, a brief look at the headlines. Now
they want exciting, fast piece news that's relevant and entertaining
Like this.
Speaker 2: I want to briefly talk about some things that have
recently released, and then we're going to jump into a
little bit of looking ahead at twenty twenty five. So
I'm sort of combining some here's what I'm thinking into
the updates because I just want to talk briefly about
some of the ones that I'm really looking forward to
this year. But before we do that, as always, you
can send your updates to us if you want us
to help you get the word out about your project,
send those updates to us. Go to PFM dot link
slash ATC News or click the link in the sidebar
on our website, or you can always just send it
in through the feedback options as well well. The first
recent release is from Faith Filled Stories and this one
is called an Extraordinary Lunch. You've heard us teasing this
for a little while now and it has been released
and you can go and listen to this episode, which
has some great actors in it. We've got Nathan Carlson
and Christianna Thomas and a handful of others. It is
a fun episode. And if you don't know, this series
is produced by Austin Peachey ATC contributor and ADA member,
and so he had done a table read of that
project early on in the script phase and I had
helped up with that, and so he gave me a
shout out in the credits on that episode. So thank
you for that, Austin. Appreciate that. But it's a really
cool take on the story of the Little Boys Lunch
from the New Testament, and I think you will enjoy it,
So check it out. Link is in the show notes
to both the podcast feed and to the website. Next up,
they slipped this in right at the end of the year.
Time Truck Chronicle season two five brand new episodes are
now available on the window Seed app. If you want
to check it out, go to window seat dot io
and sign up for a free trial if you're not
already a member, and check it out. Five new episodes.
Like I said, this is a fun show that I'm
privileged to get to play one of the main characters in.
And the episodes are as follows Episode one, The Boy
and the Giant, Episode two, The Pancake Project, Episode three,
Tower Trouble, Episode four, The Runaways Part one, and episode
five The Runaways Part two. Some really really fun episodes
that explore some themes and people from the Old Testament
in a fun and new sci fi way. And it's
just a really fun show, great for the whole family,
and there's humor mixed in with moral lessons. It's a
lot of fun to be a part of and I
think you'll enjoy listening to that. So link is in
the show notes. Go check out Time Truck Chronicles Season two.
Speaker 1: One.
Speaker 2: More quick update here before we jump into the list
of upcoming releases for twenty five, and that is on
Robin Hood Rising to Honor. This is that joint production
from LRT Media and Eternal Future Productions and Craig Hart
has finished the voice track editing for all of season two.
Sound design has begun and about half of the episodes
are actually already finished with a sound design and have
been sent to the composer. So this is moving along
rather quickly, and the team has brought back Dominic Trice
as the composer to score all of the episodes in
season two. So this is exciting. Really looking forward to
this show, and I would imagine those will be coming
pretty soon. It seems like things are moving. I had
a pretty good clip. Well, we just did a post
on our website with a huge list of some great
audio drama that is coming this year in twenty twenty five.
There is a lot of cool stuff that I'm looking
forward to. Now. If you hear some noises here in
the background, some clicking or whatever, it's because I'm looking
at the list on our website as I'm recording this
and I'm just going to go through it. You might
hear my scroll wheel moving or some clicks. But I
just wanted to go through this list, and I'm not
going to mention every single one on there. You can
go read it for yourself. There's a lot of cool
stuff coming. I just suffice it to say there's a
lot of cool stuff to come, but I wanted to
just highlight a couple of the ones that I'm really
really looking forward to. So I think I've made it
clear that I'm a big fan of Jake Muller Adventures.
You know, I've said this many times too. I just
like that there is somebody focusing on an older demographic
in this space, and so that is one that I'm
really looking forward to. We have Undead that's supposed to
be coming fairly soon, and Engineered will be recorded this spring,
So those two in particular really really looking forward to.
And then from New Birth Audio Productions, the claim this
Western that we've heard about or quite some time now,
a couple of years now, I think, or maybe it's
been about a year and a half since it was
first announced something like that. I've said before I love Westerns,
so that one I'm really looking forward to. We've got
a lot coming from Glenn Haskell and Heart Matters, and
probably the most the one from Glenn I'm most looking
forward to is his Christmas stuff. I just like the
way he does really interesting takes on Christmas themed stories.
So of those I'm looking forward to. And we just
mentioned a moment Ago, Robin Hood Rising to Honor really
really looking forward to that. Loved season one, so that's
one that I'm super super excited about. But also from
Eternal Future Productions Resurgence, this is a standalone story. Now
I'm blanking right now if we've ever heard the length
of this. I don't know if it's going to be
similar to like Mary Holiday or if it's going to
be a longer, closer to a feature length production, but
it is a period romance story and so historical fiction.
I'm excited about this. Everything that I've heard about this
production just sounds really cool. So that one I'm really
looking forward to. And from LRT Media, the next release
in their short block Holms series, they're doing an adaptation
of The Hound of the Baskervilles, just called The Hound,
and that one really looking forward to that. I'm a
Sherlock Holmes fan, have been since I read the stories
as a kid. Hearing these classic stories be told in audio,
it's always fun and I'm enjoying Craig Heart's twist on things.
And the last one, Tillie Whim, was really cool. So
I'm looking forward to this a lot. And the last
one I wanted to mention is the Road to Kayluma.
I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. This is a brand
new fantasy series from a newer producer, the Jesus Film Project,
and this just sounds super cool. The artwork looks amazing.
They say it's a reimagining of a Bible story set
in a fantasy world. Now, this is not something new.
We've heard this kind of thing done before, but I
don't know. It just sounds like it's going to be
really really cool. And John Campbell is going to be
composing the music for this, and I've heard some of
the cast, Bethany Baldwin, Andy Harvey, Kara O'Brien, Ian Lalam.
So it just sounds like it's going to be a
high quality project and I'm really looking forward to this.
And so those are the ones that I'm looking forward
to the most in twenty twenty five. At least, those
are the ones we know about so far. Of course,
there's going to be some more stuff that comes out
that we don't know about at this moment, but there's
just a lot of cool stuff coming in this year.
And I'm going to be continuing work on the micro
audio drama series that I launched last year called One
Day in Aspen Creek. There were two episodes that actually
released of this show in December, so not that long ago.
If you missed those, go check those out. But there
will be more of that coming as well in twenty
twenty five. So I'm super super excited about the state
of family friendly audio drama in this new year. Lots
to look forward to. Well, I think it's now time
to bring our guest on the show.
Speaker 1: I have some very important information and I thought i'd
be getting it into the hands of a real reporter. Sir, sir,
can I speak to a moment? Oh well, there's nothing
to it. I just ask you the questions and you
answer them in the tape recorder. Here play the interview.
Speaker 2: Well, I am thrilled today to have composer Jared Dipesqual
on the podcast again. It's been a very, very long
time since we've had an in depth conversation on the show.
And if you don't know Jared, you've probably heard his
music in Adventures and Odyssey, Focus on the Family Radio Theater,
the Brinkman Adventures, Augustin Institute Radio Theater, just to name some.
And I don't think it's any secret if you've been
listening for any length of time, that Jared's one of
my favorite composers, and so I'm just delighted to have
him on the show again today.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jared, Oh, thanks JD Man. That means a
lot to me.
Speaker 2: You know, your first appearance on the show was back
in twenty fifteen, episode sixty five. Here we are in
the two hundreds. Now, Wow, that's that's been that's way
too long. What in a world?
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, that's a lot of shows you've done. Man.
Speaker 2: You know, we first connected, if I'm remembering correctly, we
had done a post about the Hiding Place score if
I'm not mistaken, and then we get connected over that,
and then it just grew from there. You ended up
coming on the show, and then, you know, a lot
has happened since then. You know, in that episode sixty five,
we talked about the importance of character themes, how you
got started in audio drama, the challenges of Ley Miz,
and the Hiding Place. So we're not going to retread
that ground. If you missed that episode, I highly recommend
you go back and listen to that conversation because I
really listened to it. Before we sat down for this conversation,
and there's still so much good stuff in there that
you shared, Jared, So listener. If you haven't heard that,
go back and listen to that. But again, a lot
has happened since then. Soundtracks have been released, You've worked
on more different series, and you and I, you and
I have worked on projects together. And I'm gonna get
a little transparent here, and I hope you don't mind, Jared,
But shortly after your appearance on the show, I went
through some extremely difficult, tumultuous times in my life and
you were one of the only people to reach out
to me, and you sent some very very meaningful emails.
You even typed out prayers that you were praying for me,
letting me know that you were concerned multiple times. And
I haven't said this to you, I've said it in
an email, but to your face, I deeply, deeply appre
did that. It meant the world to me. At that point.
We hadn't even met in person yet, and yet you
were I don't know, I don't know why I even
shared some things with you, and I was like, I
was just in a very vulnerable point in my life
and we had just worked on Kipling's If, and that
is a deeply meaningful poem and to me personally, and
so I don't know. I just was vulnerable and I
just shared a little bit with you, and you just
were so caring. And one of the last things you
said in the thread of emails was that you said,
hang in there, your story isn't over. And my goodness,
I just want to say publicly thank you. You don't
have any idea how much that meant to me.
Speaker 1: Thanks Jing, You're more welcome. Man. I'm glad we connected
at that particular point in time, right, it was kind
of meant to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And working on IF with you another thing
that you influenced me. This is supposed to be about you.
I'm sorry. You know. We worked on IF and I
did the narration for that piece, and I had done
a little bit of voice work prior to that, primarily
for announcing for people's podcasts and different things like that,
and you really encouraged me after working on that project,
and then Katie Lee also several different times really encouraged me.
And it's because primarily because of YouTube that I even
started putting a focus on voiceover work and to this day. Now,
I've done voice acting for all different sorts of projects,
audio dramas especially, and so again it's a thank you
to you because of that encouragement that you gave me
after working on that project. So thank you.
Speaker 1: That's cool. You know, I think if I remember correctly,
like I didn't know it was you, and I think
I was just like, hey, who's the guy that you
had to do the voice tracks? He's great, you know, and
then you're like, oh, that's me. Oh well you did
good man, But I don't think. I don't think I
knew that until after I had scored it. All. Wow, well,
and that's a great poem, and I felt like, if
that's the guy that I'm working with, because that poem
is so meaningful to me too write And you're like,
there's sort of like a kindred spirit already simply because
that's the poem you chose. And I knew if if
that's the poem this guy chooses, it says a lot
about who he is as a person. And I like
this guy. Right now. We were off to a good start.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, and I don't want to presuppose upon you,
but i'd like to think that we have become friends,
even though we've only met in person once.
Speaker 1: But yeah, totally man.
Speaker 2: But anyway, you know, we've got a lot to talk about.
So enough of that much, he's stuff moving on.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that you talked about in
that in the last conversation is that you and your
agent had heard about Focus on the Family Radio Theater
and they were going to be working on Narnia, and
so that was one of the impetuses for you to
start reaching out to them. Of course we know that
that went to John Campbell, but I was just kind
of curious, from your perspective today looking back, what property,
whether it's a public domain one or not. If you
heard today that there was a producer working on an
audio drama adaptation of it, you would be like, call me,
I'm your guy, I want to work on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean, Narnia to me still is
the end all be all right for me for who
I am, for what really excites me creatively and spiritually.
Narnia is the hell I die on ten times out
of ten. And you know it's been told a lot,
and I'm like, I think I have something to say
to I don't know if that chance would ever happen.
But I do think that is the story. I think
Lord of the Rings is untouchable. I don't think anybody ever.
I think Howard Shore said it perfectly and it never
needs to he said again, I mean because it's fantasy
stuff that really fantasy with like a deeper human element
that is so meaningful to me. But I think, I mean,
Narnia is not public domain, but that is still the
story I would love to tell.
Speaker 2: So are there any other fantasy series that you really enjoy?
Speaker 1: You know? That's a good question, you know, and I
know people, I'm just looking at my bookshelf. The science
trilogy of C. S. Lewis to me it I really
like the first one, Out of the Silent Planet. I
think that's fantastically interesting. I think maybe the discoveries of
science since the time that he wrote it, where we
knew so little about outer space and now we know
so much more. I think that the story is a
little kind of like outdated and incorrect scientifically, but nonetheless
the premise of Out of the Silent Planet is amazing
and I would love an opportunity to do that. I
think that such a cool story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Out of the three that's my favorite out
of the Silent Planet and me too, Me too. You know,
I probably need to revisit them because there's so much,
especially in the second or the last two, there's there's
so much I don't know, there's I'm trying to think
how to word this out on Silent Planet is a
little more straightforward of a story. Yeah, the other two
there's there's a lot more symbolism. At least that's the
way I interpreted it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you. For me too, it's it's sort
of like the theological ideas he was expounding on are amazing,
but the story itself kind of for me lost momentum
and excitement. Because if we don't have a great story,
the theological stuff you're trying to like convey it, I
don't know, it's not enough to keep me interested. Where
the Silent Planet, that story was pretty darn cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I thought, particularly Pera Landra has several moments
where it just kind of bogs down, at least for
me as a reader.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, me too. When I read it, I'm like,
I'm gonna get through this. I'm got I am at C.
S Lewis, I am reading this book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, in just a couple of months, BBC is
releasing a full cast audio dramatization of that Hideous Strength.
I don't know why they skipped the first two.
Speaker 1: Me neither, but I don't know why either. Maybe someday
someone will make Out of the Silent Planet. Maybe someday
somebody would call me to do it, and I'd be
pretty excited about that.
Speaker 2: Maybe we need to get Philip Glasboro to reach out
to his BBC folks and have them give you a
call so we can have you do Out of the
Silent Planet or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Yeah, man, reach out to Philip. I
don't know him that well, so by all means put
the bug in his ear.
Speaker 2: Well, you've talked about in the past the agonizing process
of scoring lame is and you ended up in the
hospital and everything. What has been the toughest character theme
in recent years?
Speaker 1: Man? You know, they're all tough. I mean, I'm not
gonna lie, they're tough. Show themes are tough. Some have
come easier than others. I suppose. I would say that
Freedom and Joan of Arc were two laborious projects, and
they're laborious for different reasons. But they were equally laborious.
I think with Freedom, I had never well, I you know,
I had score. I guess Little Women is an Americana story, right,
but it's it's a very small, like slice of life
story about a family where Freedom is a huge American story,
I guess, right. And I had never had the opportunity
to do something that large ten episodes. I mean, this
is it. This is sort of like Jared's opportunity to
write his American theme. And that just kept coming over
my head. Is that, you know, it's like your inner
critic is just screaming at you. Not good enough, that's
not good. That's it, you know. But I do remember
like coming up with little musical cells that I'm like, okay,
these four notes are interesting to me, you know. And
then it took days and days to write the theme.
And I was telling a really successful Hollywood composer friend
of mine about how long it took to write it,
and he's like, geez, Jared, I've never taken that, like,
I've never allowed myself to have that long of a
time to write a theme. He couldn't wrap his head
around like taking four or five days to do it,
But he loves it, He's like, but it's a great theme.
And so the freedom thing kind of became like a
big jigsaw puzzle of like I would write these little
musical cell ideas. I'm like, I like that, I don't
like that, I like that, and kind of putting it together,
you know what I mean. And it is like trying
to make pieces fit and you're like, Okay, that doesn't fit,
but that fits over here. I mean it. It was
so laborious. But I remember the day that, like the
pieces all finally fit and the theme came together with
the accompaniment, and I remember being like, that's it. That's it,
I got it, you know. So that was that was
laborious and Joan of Arc. What Mate Joan of Arc
really hard was the amount of time that I had
between them telling me I had Joan of Arc, which
was like twenty twenty one, and then to the point
of actually doing it, which was like maybe I don't know,
years later, And I remember just sitting on the knowledge
that that job would be coming, and I remember thinking,
this is going to be the job that defines me.
Like talk about pressure, but I was just like, this
is the character that's going to define how I view myself.
The story is just too amazing. But you've got years
of like, I don't know the script, I don't know
who's acting in it, but you've got years of like
what are you going to do? What are you going
to do? You know? And I remember going up to
my studio and nothing had been recorded. I didn't know
anything about how Paul was going to do it, and
I'm like, I've got to write something. I've got to
just start moving on this, even though I don't even
know when I'm going to start the job. And I
spent like a week in my studio experimenting on it,
and I was like, well, I don't know. I was like,
I wrote something I don't know. Maybe it's good, maybe
it's not. But I did wind up using like a
couple of musical idioms from it years later that would
find his way in the score. And just so like that,
I think the hardest part about Joan was the time
that I had in my head to go crazy, you know,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I want to get to more specifics about
Joan in a little bit of course. Let's let's jump
back to Freedom for just a moment. I've told you
this already before the main theme of Freedom is probably
one of my favorite things you've ever written. And I
listen to that that even just that one piece of music,
but often the whole soundtrack. All I mean, it's it's
in constant rotation over here. And so can you clarify
a little bit what you mean when you say you
have different cells? So it sounds like to me like
it's almost that was like a putting together a puzzle here.
So are you saying that you write a few note
sequence and then you just set that aside and then
you can move on. So it's not working sequentially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean if you look at the
constructs of a melody, if you look at the like say,
the long version, you know, and we don't need to
talk to musical, but like, you know, whether it's a
four bar phrase or an eight measure phrase, that eight
measure phrase is made up of micro melodies that all
kind of come together to make the big melody. And
within those micro melodies, there are so many ways you
can iterate it, you know. I mean, I mean, I
remember for Freedom, I knew i I'm like, okay, I
want to start on that note bah, but up I
know what, bah, I know, I want to get there,
so bah bah, And I was like, okay, how many
iterations can you do between that note and that note?
And I mean I would write like five versions of
that right, And then I was like ba ba. So
I'm like okay, but da and you'd write so many
of the notes in between those two notes. Does that
make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah?
Speaker 1: And I mean so then like I would label them
like A one, A two, A three, A four, B one,
B two, B three, B four you know what I mean.
And you would start listening, Okay, what does A one
sound like with B one? And you're like, okay, no,
there's two. There's some similarities there, they're two redundant. What
is A one plus B two? I mean it's insanity
right wow. But because the worst thing, you know, I
can hear this in younger composers is like, I like
what you're doing, but this is too similar to that.
There's not enough you know, it differentiates between this phrase
and this phrase. You need to think about an opposite
movement here. You need to think your interval jump is
the same. There's just it's not there. It's good, but
it's not there. Too many composers don't spend enough time
iterating their work to find the best version. And I
think that's true of any artist across any skill set.
Is like, if you think you have something good, you
should iterate it until you find the best version of itself.
And if that was the original version, at least you
can say that, hey, this is it. This is really good.
I've tried to iterate it, and I keep coming back
to that one. But for me, the iteration led to
me finally finding the right part of the theme then
finally putting the jigsaw puzzle together A one plus B
three plus C two plus D five And you're like,
that's the theme that you JD listen to.
Speaker 2: Okay, that is amazing. And so even before you said
that this applies across other arts, I was already thinking
that this sounds very much like the process of writing
with words. I mean, there's a reason probably why it's
called writing music, because if you're going to write a novel,
you say, Okay, this is where I want the story
to start, this is where I want to end up,
this is where this is the culmination, This is the
de numa of this story. But how do I get there?
And so figuring out the middle that's the key, and
the iteration and revising all that word there is a
little too repeat. I already used that phrase. Yeah, three
symptomcess prior. Let's let's switch it up. Yeah, So that's
that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing. It's the same thing because most
of the time, I mean, if you're a writer, you know,
you pretty much know where you're starting. You have an
idea of how you're story, and you kind of know
how your story's going to end. But let's face what
happens between act one word one and act four word
last is a myriad of possibilities, and you want to
make sure you're telling the right story in the right beats,
with the most interesting way to do it, to keep
the listener or reader engaged, right, And that was what
I wanted. I felt like, you've got one shot at
an American theme. Who knows in your life if you're
ever going to get this opportunity. You got to exhaust
all possibilities, so you know, you wrote the best theme
you could possibly put out there. And I feel like
I did, Like I feel like I did. I wrote
the best thing I had in my mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And to.
Speaker 1: Know you like it means a lot to me. That's awesome,
Like the fact that like, hey, and someone likes it,
that means I did good.
Speaker 2: In fact, I don't remember exactly when it was a
year or so ago. I even texted it out to
a group of friends that I'm in a group chat.
They're all music fans. Not all of them are audio
drama people, but they all like music, and I sent
them to Spotify link. I'm like, hey, you guys have
got to listen to this, because I was listening to
it that day and I'm just like, man, this is
so good. I'm like, I'm going to share with these people,
even though they're not audio drama people. And several of
them said, oh man, that's really good.
Speaker 1: You know it's funny. I use that theme. So I
run a travel baseball team for my son and we're
doing a big fundraiser for his team is going to Cooperstown,
and I did a video of the boys on the
field practicing and I used that piece of music right,
and it's like, it's so inspiring and it's so it's
funny because it's American and baseball's American. If you watched
it you would think I wrote a theme for the
great American pastime of baseball. It's so funny. Everybody has
said to me, like, how did you write that piece
of music? It's perfect. I'm like, it's the great American theme.
You know.
Speaker 2: That is fascinating.
Speaker 1: I'll have to send you the Lenks so you can
see the video, because I think you'll just totally be like,
that's amazing. It totally works well.
Speaker 2: It just speaks to the fact that, especially in audio drama,
the music is also telling a story, and so stories
that have impact have universal application are not not necessarily
universal application, but they're they're they're they're broader than the
specifics of that story, and so being able to to
translate that theme from one project to another, it just
shows the versatility of it. And that's that's fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty cool.
Speaker 2: So, you know, freedom aside that that's the epic thing
from the Brinkman Adventures, but generally the Brinkman episodes are
not like that. They're more adventurous or even just slice
of life things like like Peppy the Christmas Cat kind
of thing totally, and so I think primarily, you know,
aside from your film work. Primarily what you are known
for in audio drama be when we spoke the last
time was the big epic scores for radio theater. You
had done some odyssey stuff, but obviously when you work
on an odyssey, they typically bring you in for these
multi parts or more epic stories. So Brinkman's and even
the stuff that you're doing for Heart matters very very
different feel, and they're shorter pieces, so twenty twenty five minutes,
thirty minutes and again more slice of life, slower paced
kind of thing. How does that differ from you know,
a feature like Joan or Patrick. Yeah, when it's completely
totally different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean Ian Boltman is a great
writer of slice of life stories that have like a
deep philosophical idea, you know. I mean he's really good
at it. He can do and I save him. And
Phil Lalor is great at this. But essentially they can
write twenty five minutes and it felt like an hour
and a half, like sort of like not in a
bad way, but sort of like the emotional connections you
have and the impact that normally, like a full length
feature would have on you. It's very difficult to do
in twenty five minutes right to sort of have like
your story beats, and Ian's really good at it. And
I always feel like with not all the time, but
with many Brinkman adventures, I feel like I'm writing like
mini movies, so to speak, and you're really trying to
create that feeling of act one, two, three, four musically
right that you give them a complete musical experience in
twenty five minutes. Does that make sense? That the introduction
to the problems that arise in any story, to the
gutting it out with the characters, to the resolution, And
so I really try to like give a complete musical
experience for a Brinkman adventure. Even though there's Slice of Life.
I look at like, I mean, like, honestly, all the
professional Hollywood composers that write great Slice of life'sc to
me either like the ultimate professional composers right of like
it's just a regular role Slice the life story. But
yet at the end of it, you're like, but dang,
that was you did great? You know what I mean?
So I look at those of like a challenge of like,
can I be as professional as I can making the
listener care in twenty five minutes? Does that kind of
make sense. Yeah, and so I really love challenging myself
with Brinkman adventures of like, can I make you really
care about this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And you talked a moment ago about, you know,
inexperienced or or newer composers, and I was kind of wondering,
as a as an accomplished composer, do you always listen
to a score or piece of music with that with
that critical ear? Why did they use that note there?
What's going on with that coord Are you able to
turn that offer or how does that experience? Does it
ruin music for you?
Speaker 1: No? I think it heightens my appreciation for it for
the really talented composer. You know, I really am able
to listen to an audio drama or watch a movie
and honestly take in everything that's going on. I can track.
If I like the story, I can track, if I
like the dialogue, if I like the actors, if I
like the oral experience or the visual experience, I can track,
if I like the score. I mean, it's really weird
that I can and I'm sure I'm not the only one,
but that you can engage a piece of media and
genuinely like it. But at the same time, digest everything
that's going on and kind of have your inner I
always had I take notes of like that's really cool.
I love what he or she did there musically reacting
or not reacting, or like, wow, I can't believe they
made that decision. That's just not a good decision. But
I'm always in observation mode, for sure, always in observation mode.
But I'm a lifelong learner. I love learning. I just
so it's just who I am.
Speaker 2: So how are you able to distinguish or know when
a composer is just making us dialistic choice versus not
knowing the rules or just being a total amateur.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what I mean. Really like, the great
composers are thematic composers, right, And when I say thematic composers,
it doesn't have to mean the big, sweeping melody, but
it is musical idioms and ideas that are built upon
and have recurring places in time. Right Where composers, young
composers who are just writing Q to q Q to
q with no real commonality or thought or thematic building,
you can just spot it a mile away and you're
just writing cues. I mean, there's a lot of that
in TV movies as well as there is an audio
drama of just writing cues and that's you can spot that,
And that's just never what I wanted to do. I
was always I was brought up in the world of
thematic writing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think what I've noticed in some projects
and even in some of my own because I am
not a musician, but I am an appreciator and lover
of music, and so I can pick up things that
I do like. But when I'm working on a project
and I'm producing something I have in the past, and
I'm trying to be more cognizant of this now. If
I'm using stock music or whatever, I have chosen things
that I'm like, Okay, this works for this moment, but
I'm not thinking big picture here, And this cue I
used in Seeing one to scene two is in conflict
with what I use from scene three to See four.
They don't flow't, they don't match in any sort of way.
And so trying to be cognizant of that, I think
is a big thing for newer producers of audio drama
for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about Patrick. I don't
we don't have to get too much into the details here, but.
Speaker 1: A great Patrick's totally worth talking about. Man, that thing
is a monster, right.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, speaking of monster, there is a scene in
this one that I think is one of the most
dramatic scenes in all of audio drama. And I'm talking
about the exorcism scene here.
Speaker 1: Totally agree.
Speaker 2: And the score there just it builds, and the tension
that the performances, it all comes together. It's it's crazy.
It's it's it's crazy. I don't even know how else
to describe it. How on earth did you approach that?
I mean, I'm just blown away in how good that
all came together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Patrick, I mean Patrick is sort of like I
think Patrick and Joan are like they're my like tombstone pieces, right, honestly, Like,
at the end of the day, those two scores are
I'm so proud of them, right. If composers are known
for a specific thing, those are my pieces, right, I mean,
Patrick is Patrick's amazing. It's an amazing story. I didn't
know the story, right, I mean, prior to the audio drama,
if you would have asked me about Saint Patrick, I
would have had no clue. And then when you read
the script, you're like, I had no idea this is
this is the guy of what I'm writing. You know,
I have such an affinity for Irish music already because
I'm a quarter Irish and my grandma my eternal grandmother,
so I have like I have already part of that
kind of in my dna and love of that music.
But I mean, the score for Patrick goes so far
beyond just an Irish little melody or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that made Patrick so
amazing was my commitment to find a woodwind player that
was truly Celtic of that time, you know, And I
talk about that in my one of my behind the
scenes video is that I scoured YouTube and I found
the girl who was Celtic roots out of France, and
she her playing was as close to what the original
Celtic styles were hundreds of years ago, you know. And
then of course me using my friend Sarah, who I
paid for lessons for her to take Gaelic lessons so
that she could speak the language and she could sing
the language properly.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: We found a linguist that taught her Gaelic so that
when she sang it would be spot on.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I had talent around me that I knew I could
do something special because I say that to so many
people because so many people are doing scores in the
box just their computer. Man, when you don't involve other people,
your scores are flat. I'm sorry, they're flat. And when
you involve experts around you, what can happen can become magical.
And so I knew I had that with Patrick. I
knew I had the talent around me to do something special.
But man, that whole experts back to that scene, I mean,
I mean I was scared to death because you know
that's episode seven, and you know you're going through these
episodes and you're ticking it off, and with every tick
off of queues, you're like, I'm one queue closer to
this queue, and all of the scenes leading up to
and I started episode seven and I'm like, I really
like what I got. I like where I'm going. I'm
setting this thing up really well. You're doing great, Jared,
You're doing great. And then that day comes. I remember
it was I ended a day on Friday with the
last scene leading up to it, and I know new
Monday morning was going to be the day. And You're
just like you're just panic, you know, like just like
I don't like, I didn't sleep. I was such a
wreck because I'm like, it's the scene. You're doing the scene,
and it was so hard. And I remember talking to
Dave Arnold and Dave was like, Jared, you just gotta
stop overthinking it. Just do it. You're ready, You're ready,
go do it. I was like, all right, I'm gonna
do it. So I started, you know, and I mean
the scene really there's a point. It's an eight minute sequence.
The thing really picks up. About three minutes in is
where the thing really picks up. And man, I don't know.
It was just like I had such clarity of like
all the music and the thematic stuff I had written beforehand.
I just had such like crazy supernatural clarity if that
makes any sense, about where this is gonna go here,
This is gonna go here, this is you're gonna change this,
this is you know what I mean to sort of
assemble the Jigsaw puzzle, and that everything that you had
been telling thematically where now is going to feel like
it was almost on steroids, right, Every idiom that you
had now is like but blown up even more epically.
Does that kind of make sense feeding and it was
so fun to be just like, this is it, but
now we're going to blow it up. This is it,
but now we're going to blow it up. The orchestrations
are going to become massive, you know what I mean.
And it was just so cool because it took five
days to write that scene and that's a long time, man.
I mean, most composers don't give themselves that time. But
I was like, this is when am I ever going
to write this scene again in my life? I owe
it to myself to do this right. And every day
I would end the day and I would be just like,
I can't believe it, you know, And I would wake
up the next morning with like clarity about where I
was in the scene and what to do. By the
end of it, when the exorcism has happened and the
demon is exercise and Sarah sings the melody full throttle,
I mean, I was just like, I mean, I was,
I lost it. I think I was just crying my
eyes out because you're like, Wow, thank you God for
like you gave me these pieces and you knew that
three months later these pieces would come to fruition and
I would have clarity about how they fit. And it
just kind of felt like you're witnessing your own miracle,
like a miracle that God gave you this, and I
got to see it come to fruition. I mean, that
scene is a miracle. The scene is a miracle.
Speaker 2: So you talk about bringing in the vocalist there, how
does that work? I mean, what part of the process
do you find Okay, now this is the point where
I need to bring in a vocalist, and then when
do you actually reach out to them?
Speaker 1: And yeah, so you know what, And this was the
first time, Patrick Mark, the first time that I that
I totally changed how I wrote music, and it's it's
altered everything since then. And that's largely to do with
the time constraints put onto composers and how things are mixed.
Where in the old days, and this is the old
days of radio theater, that you would write the entire
Little Women's score right, and they would approve cues. But
then I had the money where I would go record
the orchestra for two days. I would record the orchestra,
I would mix for a week, and I would literally
deliver two hours of music. And then then whoever was
mixing it's whether it's Todd to Steed or Nate Jones.
They would then start the mix process. But now everybody
is mixing as you go, So you're delivering the music
for episode one and at the same time a sound
designer is going in and then the mixer is going
and sort of like you're only one step ahead of
all other skill sets because they're waiting on you so
they can mix. So because maybe now they're releasing things
one episode at a time as opposed to the physical sea,
you know what I mean. So I knew with Patrick
they would be wanting mixes as I went, meaning I
couldn't keep calling Sarah of like hey, I got a
cue for you, Hey, I got you know, Like I
knew that just wasn't gonna work out. And so I
wrote all these thematic ideas for Jessica the flute player
and Sarah beforehand, and it was totally on a gut
of like I think we're gonna we're gonna sing the
theme like this, We're gonna sing it like this, We're
gonna sing it in this tempo, We're gonna do it
in this key. You're going to improvise here. I think,
you know what I mean I made all of these
like creative like decisions before I even wrote a note
of music, sort of based on like please God, I
hope this works. I hope I'm getting everything, because this
is all I got. And so I recorded Sarah first first,
singing those themes, and I was like, I want you
to sing one at the top of your lungs. I
really think that that's going to play out later in
the story. I don't know where exactly, but and so
that's what I did. And so I'm kind of like
always throwing these sound bites of recorded information of my
flute player or Sarah for Patrick and then writing around it.
That is kind of weird, it's yeah. And so for
that I came to that moment with crom Kruak with
the freedom. I'm like, this is Sarah's moment. This is
the moment I've been waiting for. This is when I
told her to sing it at the top of her lungs.
That I had no clue where I was going to
put it. This is it and you put it in
and you're like, Holy Molly, this is amazing. And so
that's kind of like how I how I write now
where I make a ton of creative decisions early, and
I record instrumentalists right away and then I write it
like that. I would say it takes a ton of
experience to be able to do that and sort of
forethought of knowing how your jigsaw puzzle is gonna work together.
I wouldn't recommend it to anybody because it's it's a lot,
it's a big gamble, but it's it's always paid off for.
Speaker 2: So you put together this sort of mental framework of
what the score might look like, and you have these
little pieces, different elements, you assign to them sort of
you know, you're subcontracting out these little sections, and then
you have all these tools. You have your entire knowledge
of music, You have your musical tools, your instrumentation, and
then you have these the vocals and the other instruments,
and you can just assemble from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's cool, that's cool. Yes, you know, and
I think just that the time constraints have forced me
to because my number one priority is I want to
deliver a quality score. I want to deliver something that's awesome.
But the time constraints have changed, and it's made me
rethink how can I still provide something great within the
time constraints that they have upon me, and that's kind
of become my process. But the key is is working
with amazingly talented musicians. That stuff that I do in
the beginning is so awesome because they're awesome, you know
what I mean? And so that's why I'm really specific
about who I work with. I work with players that
I've flushed out over the years that are so good
at what they do.
Speaker 2: And I love that aspect of your composing to how
you bring in these other elements, and I think it
makes the whole score much richer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agreeing, especially with Patrick Joan of Arc Freedom.
Those scores are like they rely huge on those musicians,
you know.
Speaker 2: Well, Shifting gears a little bit from these historical epics
to Jake Muller adventures. So, oh men, tell us a
little bit. I don't even know the story. How did
you originally connect with Derby and Micah and how has
that experience been to score a high octane sort of
adventure versus these slower paced historical epics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they must have known who I was
and maybe they reached out to me. It's a long
time ago, right, It's a long time ago. And you know,
they had a pilot. They are a trailer. They had
a trailer for the first Jake Muller and I don't
even think it was Dougan. It was a different actor,
you know, they had different actors. It was just like
a proof of concept thing. And I was interested. I
was like, Hey, I really want a shot at this.
I really think I can do something. Let me score it.
And I did, and I think we all everybody knew.
It was like, Oh, this is gonna be this is cool,
it's going to work. But yeah, they I mean they
really left me. They left me alone. They really did.
They didn't give me much direction, which was totally fine.
It was such a Jake Muller is such a unique
world that it is its own thing, and I wanted
to be left to kind of figure it out what
this own thing is. And and I like what I
arrived at and yeah, it's totally different. I think that's
what's so fun about it. I mean, that score definitely
got me a lot of attention with other Hollywood composers.
People heard that and they were like, holy Molly, that's
all synth, that's all your samples. You know, Like I
think I got asked to be a guest panelist at
the Nashville Film Composium because of that score.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very funny. It was like people's ears
really perked up after that first Jake Muller score, which
is cool. It was it was really fun to write
something modern, you know, totally not something I get to
do a lot, and I was so happy to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's park on Joan here for a minute.
Victory of Joan of Arc. You've kind of alluded to
it a little bit, but how grueling was it to
go through this? I mean, it's we know the story.
It doesn't have a happy ending, and so I can't
imagine the mental drain working on this story. And so
I was just kind of curious, what are your overall
thoughts as you look back on this. There's been some
time since it's come out. Now it's not quite as intense, probably,
and maybe what are some of the things that you
learned from that process that you might apply to this
next big epic that you're working on or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I will say that that story has
a permanent imprint on my life. That character Joan, and
not character that person she's real. This is This was
my take on it, and this was why it was
so hard, because you know, you have you write a
story as a writer, and maybe these characters you write
are relatable in some way, maybe the audience member will
connect with them. Oh I see myself a little bit
in this, or I can really relate to that character struggle.
You know, maybe it's a version of yourself you wish
you were you know what I mean. But with Joan
of arc you cannot relate to it. You cannot relate
to her. I kind of liken it to the way
when C. S. Lewis was talking to mere Christianity about
Jesus and he says he's either a liar, a lunatic,
or he's God. There are no other ways. Jesus did
not mean for him to be interpreted in any other way,
you know what I mean? And I think Joan is
either a liar, a lunatic, or a messenger of God.
There is no other way to put it. And you
can't relate to her. You know, whether it's like Michael
Jordan right, who is the greatest basket? You know, whatever
are you believe the greatest factor? You cannot relate to
Michael Jordan, his abilities are you can't just be like well,
you know, if I practiced a little harder, I could
have been as good as No, you couldn't. You were
not going to be you know what I mean? And
Joan is that you and your most virtuous you will
not be juonk You and your bravest you will not
be Joan. She is operating above you because she's either
a lion or a lunatic, or she's a messenger of God.
And my job was to make you believe she was
a messenger of God. I didn't want you to relate
to her. I wanted you to be inspired by her.
Because for me, my whole thing was I would follow
this girl. I would tell my wife that at dinner conversations,
I would be like, man, I don't follow many people, right,
Like I don't get excited about people, like like political candidates,
like to follow them like I'm going to stake my
I'm putting the stake in the ground that you are
the person I'm following, right, I follow Jesus Christ. That's it.
But man, Joan, if I was around, if I saw
what I saw, I would be like, I think I'm
going to battle with this girl. That's how like it
affected me. And I wanted the score to convince you
to follow her. And I believe I did that. Between
what her peasant theme is the girl and then her
Holy Mission theme, these themes, I just feel like that's
the music I used to hope that you would follow her.
Does that make sense? And yeah, you're right. I mean
the ending, it's like, you know how the story ends.
Most people on the planet has heard of her and
they know how it ends. And that was a horrid
scene to write. Horrid And again, it took a long time.
I'm probably a week or so, and I was a wreck.
I remember being stuck. I remember you know it's again.
It's like one of those eight minute sequences that are
so long, and you're like, I love what I got
in the front. It's so cool. I love like every
day you're like, okay, I did it. I like it.
I like it. But then I remember I got stuck.
I got stuck somewhere like on day four, you know
what I mean. You come to this moment and I
don't know if you ever feel like this when you're writing,
but where you're like in such a zone you just
feel like it's just coming. You're just plowing through it.
There's like nothing could stop you but I And that's
the way I felt. But then with Joe and I
hit this snag and I remember just like horrid, this
feeling washing over me of like you lost it, you
lost it, the vibe, the mojo, it's all gone. What
are you going to do? And I remember begging God.
I was like God, please, please, please help, please help
show me what to do, and imber just hitting my
keyboard and I finally found the chord and it was
like my world opened up again, you know what I mean.
And then I turned off the audio because I knew,
you know what I mean, like there comes a point
with audio drama, like with any story, I can turn
it off and I know what I need to write.
And I just wrote it, you know, for the next minute.
And then I was like, all right, I'm gonna listen
to it, and I put her back in and it's
when she's being burned, and it was amazing, and I
cried like a baby. I mean, like the deep you know,
that deep croy, you know, the deep cry within your
soul of that kind of pain of loss. It's like
I felt like I lost her, like I felt like
because I remember telling summerly my wife of like, and
I'm getting emotional about it. I was like, today's my
last day with Joan. I feel like I've fought alongside
her for months on end. And maybe it's the way
I mean, it's maybe the hopelessness the apostles felt with
christ of like I'm not gonna hear her voice again.
Today's the last day I get to work with Joan.
And I was so sad. And when she died and
the burning, it was just like the worst pain, as
if it really happened. I know, it sounds so stupid,
it sounds so cheesy, but that's just how deep I
was into it. Now, Yeah, and it's just man, I
that that I'm just I feel so blessed that I
got to write that scene, that I did it, you
know what I mean. It's it's like another miracle. It's
like that and the Patrick Exorcism are the two miracles
of my musical life.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you every moment of that entire sequence,
every single element of that audio drama, it's perfectly meshed together.
I remember the moment to this day when I listened
to that audio drama, and I reached that scene for
the first time, and it's one of those I was alone,
but it was one of those moments where it's like
people describe as the air left the room. You know,
It's just like and it just became dead, silent, and
I just I froze, you know, I'm just listening. I
was so pulled into that. Yeah, and you you, I
don't know, at least for me, I became part of
the story at that moment. Yeah. And I'm just an
observer there watching this horrific thing happen. And the score
is so understated. And I don't mean that in a
negative way. It's it's supposed to be. It needs to
be at that moment, and it's just everything's sort of
taking a backseat to Heather the actress. Yeah, and then
and then it starts to slowly build up after, you know,
after a little bit of time, and my goodness, I
don't know how anybody can listen to that and not
be moved.
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's it's very cool, man. It's it's a very
special scene for me, you know. And Paul told me that.
Paul said he came out of his study and he
had to explain to his wife why he was like
a sobbing mess, you know, because you're right, it's the
air left the room. You feel like you are in
the story. You feel well. I mean what a great
thing do Drama is at its best of Like it
really can transport you into the moment as if you're
a bystander in the room. That's amazing that that can happen.
You know, it doesn't happen all the time, but the boy,
when it does, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a visceral moment. I mean you feel it
in your gut, even just as a listener. I mean
I had nothing to do with that production, you know,
I'm just a you know, a consumer of this amazing story,
and it had that effect on me. I can't even
imagine what it was like for you and Paul, who
were part of creating it. And for Heather I mean, yes,
speaking of the actress, I mean, how much of that
her performance helped to inform what you did there?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I always said that, like, you know,
I remember I was telling you how, you know, I
started to noodle around with Joan years before because of
the whole time thing. But when they delivered the voice tracks.
I did not have a theme for Joan of Arc.
I had all these like ideas, these accompaniment ideas, but
I didn't have her theme. And I was like, because
that is like rule number one in composerville. It's like,
if you're gonna start the job, you better have a
theme for your the story. And man, I push play
and I heard Heather's voice and I was just like enamored,
and I wrote the theme right away. I literally I
heard her voice, I heard the first scene. I wrote
the theme, and I'm like, we are good to go.
And Heather is amazing. And that just can't be overstated enough,
is man, the importance of the actors you get for
audio drama. If they're not good, nothing will save it.
Your sound design won't save it, your music won't save it.
It has to start with them, right, And Heather delivered
the goods. Heather is probably one of the best actresses
I've ever worked with them on the planet. She's awesome.
Never met her, but boy ol boys, she awesome.
Speaker 2: Now on the blog, there is a post we went
into the process of this score talking about some of
the other creatives you worked with on this project. So
listener if you haven't seen that post, it's linked in
the show notes of this episode. Highly recommend you go
check that out. It's fantastic. Even if you haven't heard
Joan of Arc yet, go read that post after you
listen to this episode and then go get Joan of Arc.
I mean they put it out as a podcast so
you can go listen to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I like to kind of put out the feelers
into the community whenever we have a big guest such
as yourself on the show and get some questions from
the community. And so I have a couple here that
I wanted to run through. One is from Betsy Nicholson
over at Triple Chord Productions. She asks, when you're working
on a particular audio drama, what does the collaboration look
like with the sound designer? Because obviously the score and
the sound design are very closely related and they have
to work together. So what does that look like when
you're working with a sound designer?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it depends on the job, right, because like
Joan of Arc, the sound design is enormously important and
it is very dictates the timings of things too. Whereas
maybe if it's a slice of life and I don't
really need to know what the background is and it
doesn't really matter. But man, with Joan of Arc, and
with any story that's an epic proportion, I would I
would encourage this is to be loose and fluid a bit,
because the voice editor is doing the best they can
to guess at things, especially when it comes to sword
fights or battles or like the opening of the gate.
I mean, they're doing the best they can do in envision. Okay,
I think that seems like enough time. And then the
sound designer and I are working normally at the same time,
and so that sound designer is going off of that
voice track. But for me as a composer, there are
times where I'm like, I need another beat or I
need two less beats, right, And so I would tell Todd.
I would say, hey, just so you know, between line
one seven and one forty nine, I've cut two seconds
out and I've tightened this up so that this can
hit more naturally, or or I've lengthened something, you know
what I mean. And because we're not really on CDs
the way we used to be, the way everything is
more of like digital streaming, you're not tied into those
very strict time constraints that radio theater was timed, you
know what I mean, they didn't have but anyway, so Todd,
I mean, Todd hated me through that process because because
he you know what, I feel horrible for him, because
I mean, you think about the sound designer of like
all of the stams of ambiences and clinks and booms
and right, and I'm like, hey, buddy, I cut two
seconds out and he has got to like back time
at all, you know what I mean. But I have
that like with Nate Jones. He understands that is going
to happen with me, and Nate is like, hey, I'll
accommodate it. Todd was a little bit more taken, like
I think I got him by surprise of like you
mean you cut another two seconds, you know what I mean.
So it's huge to be in conversations with that sound
designer on those epic moments because your timings are so
intertwined together, right, And there are times where I'll be like, hey,
I'm gonna let you have the bridge hitting the ground
and then I'll react to it, you know what I mean.
There's no need for us both to be on the
bridge or that kind of thing, and so you've got
to be talking all the time to the sound designer
about this is what I'm doing or what are you doing?
You know, how can I react to what you're doing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something that I've definitely learned in recent
years as I've actually gotten into, you know, doing post
production myself. Those seconds matter. I mean they every single
second matters in the course of the flow. That that
is is an underappreciated and under rated, undernoticed thing that
that newer producers I think kind of forget about. The
flow is so important for the story. You can feel
a slightly disjointed voice track edit, you know if oh, yeah,
that pause there is just it's a half a second
too long and it's throwing off the flow, you.
Speaker 1: Know, totally yeah, or it's too short, right. I Mean,
how many times it's like, will the actor say something.
Let's just say the actor says something really profound and heartfelt,
and the other person is like, yeah, I totally know
how you feel. Like you're like, wow, man, you just
jumped all over that guy who just poured out his heart.
Chances are you might be a little bit more, you
might be taking your time more and like I'm really sorry. Right, Yeah,
they're way too tight, so it could be like the
way too long, and now I feel like this story
doesn't make any sense. It doesn't feel natural or you're
totally on top of each other, and that's not how
that conversation would go. Yeah, I mean, once you become
the producer of an audio drama, you really start having
an appreciation for timing in a way that you didn't
maybe as an actor only.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I totally get you, Todd. I get the
angst there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a technical nightmare for
Todd to accommodate me, but ultimately, for the good of
the story, I'm glad he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. What else you got?
Speaker 2: She also wanted to know what type of notes in
the script from the script writer help you as you
approach the score, help inspire what to do, And I
would also add she didn't ask this, but I would
also add how much is too much input from them?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, some people like Adventures in Odyssey,
provide very detailed notes. They're very good notes, they're very
professional notes, exciting with minimal danger. Right, and so, because
like you know, I'm working on something now with Nate
and he's like, hey, that just sounds too dangerous. And
I was like, yeah, but you didn't give me any notes, right,
if you just would have said exciting but not too right,
because normally I was like, hey, you can give me
the notes. You're good at notes, give me the note.
It's exciting, not too dangerous, like yeah, yeah, I got
it or very dangerous, right, So like notes are good
because otherwise, like we can go do something that is
totally off base of what the producer wanted. And had
they just said that, I wouldn't have done all of
this and kind of wasted my time and done, you
know what I mean. Obviously it's too much when you're
like enter trumpets here, you're like, okay, hey, you know,
like I got it. I'll figure it out, you know.
But you know, I've really become a fan with Joan
of ARC. Paul and I spotted it together. So each episode,
every two weeks, when I was done with an episode,
we would jump on a zoom call for one hour
we spotted the script together that episode. We go line
by line, what do you think about this? You know
what I mean? We talked about it. So the notes
that I had on the page at the end of
that hour were more of us brainstorming together and arriving
at ideas together, because a lot of times with notes,
that's just the producer's version of what they're hearing. But
the composer could say, well, that's a great idea. But
you know what, if we thought about that, you know,
it's more collaborative. I would encourage any producer who wants
to become or a director who wants to become really
really good, to do a live zoom session with your
composer for notes. I think the collaborative process is way
better than you just throw in notes at us. That's
just my two cents.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like that's a necessary step
with every type of project or only for these big
epic long features, or do you think that's something you
need to do with a short thirty minute episode or.
Speaker 1: No, No, I mean, I mean it depends on that
thirty minute episode, right. If it's if it's a sort
of like Adventures in Ossey Club episode that I get
called for, which are like kind of mini movies and
thirty minutes, right, these are big ideas. Those do involve
phone calls with I do talk to them, right, I'm
not just looking for your notes, because there's a lot
to unpack in those thirty minutes. But no, I mean,
I just I guess what my point is is that like,
the more you talk to your team members, really talk
to them, not email and text them, the more of
a true relationship you get with them and a collaborative thing,
and you will learn from them as much as they'll
learn from you. And so by bouncing ideas off of
each other. Because even in Slice of Life, it's still like, hey,
I don't think we need to come in here, or
I think we should come in here sooner. I think
that this little sentence is the driver for this little scene.
Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, I'm just I don't know.
I just I think if you can find the time
to do it, talk to your composer before you just
start chucking out notes.
Speaker 2: That's one of the things that I've always liked about
audio drama production is the collaborative process of getting to
work with other people. And when it's really siloed, I mean,
it can work, you can put out some content, but
I think you're going to be much better off when
when people are talking to each.
Speaker 1: Other totally totally. I mean, you know when I did Adventum,
that one time I did Adventum, I was totally siloed.
Gave me notes, no one gave me anything, no one
talked to me, and it was a lonely job. Man,
when you are just like left going, I don't know
what to I mean, I guess I'll do this. The
one's telling me what to do, I guess I'll do this.
And so I just think it's it's good for you
to talk to people in the collaborative process. I think
you will become better by listening to other people's opinions
on things, especially when they're talented people that you're working with.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Austin Peachey asked in general, what is the
most difficult emotion to underscore?
Speaker 1: I think true sadness is really hard because there's so
much you can do that's so cliche. You know that
it's like it's been done so many times that they're
they're all like sadness is now a caricature of itself
where it just doesn't feel genuine, it feels forced. Yeah,
you know, I struggle with that a lot, Like it's like, ah,
that's too over the top. That's too it's too obvious,
you know, Oh, you're trying too hard to make them
feel sad. The actor is doing a good job. And
so those are the scenes that I probably really agonize
over the most. You know, some composers I think it
just nail them right away and move on. But for me,
I just like because I think understated is good, right.
I think that's the hardest thing for composers to be,
is understated when they need to be, and sometimes that
might be the most emotionally effective thing you can do.
Speaker 2: I think that that's another thing that younger or newer
composers do struggle with, is they feel like, well, I'm
the composer, I'm writing the music. The music needs to
be there, but you've got to know when to let
it step back and let the other things shine. And
actually Austin asking in a related question, how do you
know when to add music and when to just let
the dialogue and the sound effects just tell the story.
Speaker 1: I think the more of a student you are in composing.
And when I say that is like you're always listen,
listening to the people that are better than you, right,
And so you know, when I watch them movies translate
into audio drama in terms of dialogue beat points, and
so I'm always listening to where does the character say
something that is the start of the germination of whatever
will take place, And a lot of people miss it
in their que calls of like, no, it's not when
we say, you know, okay, let's go, we're off. Well
that's no, that's a hit point. But the conversation started
actually six lines ago when someone said this, right, But
you're always looking for like, okay, that's the start of
the idea, and it builds along the way with the
lines of dialogue.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's not just foreshadowing in the dialogue, it's
foreshadowing in the score as well.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean I encourage anybody if you really
like something, if there is a movie you like, or
an audio drama you like, or whatever, a book you like,
tear it apart and understand why you like it, right, Like,
I am notorious for that because there's a lot of
people that are be just like, well, I just like it.
I just like the experience of it. I like, you know,
you're like, okay, that's great, But if you want to
get really good at your craft, you need to know
exactly why you like it from a purely technical standpoint,
you know what I mean. Yeah, and it will actually
deepen your appreciation of why that thing is a piece
of art, you know. And so I do that with
movies and with orchestra scores, like I tear them apart
to understand why I like it, why it works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've I've always been an appreciator of stories.
I've been a voracious reader since I was just a
little kid. But it's only only been in the last
handful of years that I've really started trying to do that,
and not even really consciously doing it. It's just as
I've become more involved in storytelling myself, then I start
looking at at stories that I consume and think, oh,
I see what they did there, and I like that,
and I can use that sort of pattern myself.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, for sure. I just watched I had
a day off where I was waiting on a job
and I decided to watch a movie I've always wanted
to watch for a long time because I had heard
it was a great movie. I watched it. It was
The Arrival. It was like a science fiction movie with
Amy Adams, and I was floored by it. And you
know what I did. I watched it again. And then
you know what I did the next day, I watched
it again because because it was sort of like, here
was something that really affected me on a deep emotional level.
And then I was like, I need to know why
it did. And I watched it and I was like, okay,
I got it. And then I listened to the score
probably ten times just by itself, right, so that I
knew the score by heart. And then I'm like, Okay,
now I'm going to go in deep under the hood
with this guy and understand everything he did and where
it hitting. And I did, you know what I mean.
So what became a sort of like very enjoyable moment
of me just consuming media became a huge education for me.
And I would encourage anybody with audio dramas. If you
find an audio drama you love, tear it apart, go
under the hood and understand why you like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that. So we've talked a little
bit about composers who are newer to the craft or whatever,
But what would you say to somebody who's just getting started,
What are the most important skills or the basics to
focus on at the start. This is a question from
Mark Mukahey and the side note, I'm sure listeners are
familiar with his name. He's the one who wrote the
music for season one of Greenhorn Tales, and he's done
lots of other projects. He's also a sound designer. I
don't know why he's asking a question about just getting started,
because he's done some great work already himself. He's not
getting started, no, But I love that he's always looking
to improve and learn more.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, compose in media have a challenge
because they they're always they need to be improving two
things at the same time. They need to be improving
themselves as a composer, a technical composer, right, getting good
at your craft with musical language and musical skills. But
then you need to become a good storyteller at the
same time, so you're always balancing. It's kind of funny
because like I actually would prefer a lesser composer with
great storytelling intuitions over this really great technical composer with
no intuition to storytelling. Does that make sense? But you
need both if you're going to have a long lasting career,
you have to have both, you can't just be one
or the other. And so understanding why music works in
an audio drama. It's so important of like again, like
we talked about timing of like, of pace, of tempo,
of like really just understanding why is the music working
year or why is it not? That is the so
important in audio drama. Since you don't have the visual,
the music is going to be that much more important.
And if it's wrong, if it's wrong, quote unquote, it's
going to just throw off everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it may not be a bad piece of music,
but it's wrong for this situation.
Speaker 1: Totally might be the greatest piece of music ever written
on the planet, but it is totally wrong for the moment. Right.
It's too fast, it's too dense. Why are you having
the French horns play that you're over You're killing the vocal.
I mean but it was a great piece of music.
But sorry, dude rejected, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like Todd Todd Bustid is so fond of
saying we work for the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well. Mark also asked what are your desert island software
tools or libraries that you can't live without?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I've used a program digital performer. I
write on that it's an older program, but I'm so
good at it. I started it in college when it
was just poor performer. So nineteen eighty nine is when
I started on this software, right, and so I am
super fast on it, and that would be what I
couldn't live without, sad to say. But with libraries, man,
I'm always changing, Like I am always looking for new
sounds to inspire me. I had this a film composer
in from La that moved here. Now I've become really
good friends with and we are always talking shop. And
I had this joke, I'm like, I feel like I've
been having the same musicians on my score for like
the last eight years. I feel like we're all It's
like I'm looking for new people in new rooms, you
know what I mean. And so I'm always looking for
new libraries to inspire me. So I don't really have, honestly,
like a ton of desert island stuff. Technology is something
that I'm always looking to how do I improve upon,
how do I make it sound better. I don't have
a lot of loyalty, Like I'm always like, sure I
use that, But now I'm I've found something better, I'm
moving on. You know, my desert Island stuff, honestly are
the scores I own, and I would tell Mark that
my desert If you want to know what my desert
Island is, I'm looking at it right now. It's Holds
the Planets score Daphnis and Chloe. It is Igor Stravinsky's
Write a Spring the theme. But Thomas tallis like, I'm
just saying, that's desert island. To me, that's the stuff
I couldn't live without. The real music on paper.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And just to clarify for the listener, And
in case you're not familiar by libraries, we're talking about
collections of instruments, samples, ye yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, these kinds of conversations I find so invigorating and inspiring,
just digging into people's process and it's just so enjoyable
for me. And I'm so thankful that I have this
show as an outlet for me to do this, because
if I was going to sit down with you for
an hour, i'd probably have to pay you to get
some coaching here. But I get to have these wonderful
conversations and share it with the community, So I'm so
thankful for that. But before we head out the door,
I do want to ask you, regardless of content and
whatever medium, whether it's a film or an audio drama,
what is a score out there, a soundtrack for a
project that you absolutely love and you think is just
an absolutely beautiful piece of music that people should hear?
Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, I mean I have always said, and I've
never been shy. I'm looking at my library of music. There.
Howard Shore's score to the Lord of the Rings is
everything that music should be. Is that everything that great
music should be. What he did is amazing, beauty, agony, danger, violence, adventure.
He did it all and everything he did with such excellence.
I marveled. My son just saw. We watched Lord of
the Rings for the first time. He's twelve almost. He
wanted to watch and he's read the books, so I
watched it again. You know, twenty years later, however long
it's been, and I'm still bawling like a baby when
I hear his music. I think everybody should listen to that.
I will say, there's a score that I really think
that if you are into music, or if you're into
good store telling. The score that James Newton Howard wrote
for a movie called Signs. It's like a UFO movie
in the cornfields. James Newton. Howard's execution of a theme
from start to finish is an absolute masterclass in film scoring.
It is a score I have ripped apart ad nauseum.
I think it's one of the greatest film scores ever written.
Speaker 2: And isn't that amazing? And I think all of your
work does this as well. When the score can stand
on its own and be enjoyed without the context of
the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're kind of lucky. I always say
that you're that's a lucky bonus, right, because we don't
write scores to be like, well, I really think people
are going to enjoy track one to track two. We're
not thinking that at all. But it's like when you
actually after it's done and you're like, I'm going to
assemble a score for release, You're like, hey, this thing
actually is pretty listenable. Yeah, phew, that's amazing, you know
what I mean. But yes, but those good scores have
I mean, look, Lord of the Rings. I would only
imagine people listen of that daily for just inspiration, you
know what I mean. And that's that's great. He didn't
intend that, but that was a sure bonus that he
got with that music.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm one who has on many occasion just
turned on that soundtrack as I'm going to sleep at night.
Speaker 1: Yeah totally yeah, yeah, and so like the orcs arrive
and then you're woken up by the clatter of five
flour and the banging pianos or whatever. But yeah, you're like,
I was sleeping so good.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, by that time, I'm already drifted way off.
Speaker 1: So maybe you're deep, you're in the rem sleep, you're
so you are gonna get it.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you've got some fun, interesting projects in
this year of twenty twenty five that that I don't
know if you can even talk about them. But is
there anything that you're looking forward to the most? And
I guess actually, Mike, I wanted to know what project
you're most excited about scoring in twenty twenty five and
why is your answer Jake Muller Adventures Undead and Reckoning
of Cowards.
Speaker 1: I totally knew E would say that I am looking
forward to that. I mean that next Jake Mueller. It's
going to take place I think in New Orleans. It's
gonna take like kind of in the Bayou or like
that area. I don't have a script, right, I haven't
heard it, but like, Jake's going to a whole new
part of the country where we've left Chicago, and I
know it's gonna give me an opportunity to do something
that I've never done before. And I'm really excited to see,
like how I can bring that swampiness of Louisiana into
Jake's world. So I'm totally yeah. I mean I because
that's really that's on the books, but yeah, definitely from Mike.
I'm totally looking forward to that job.
Speaker 2: Well, uh, you know, I issued this challenge and I'm
still still waiting around for it. But I told you
years ago I'm still waiting for you to work a
theremin into a score. So I'm going to challenge you
again for that.
Speaker 1: I know that theorem men. I remember even looking to
buy one because they make like newer theorem mens. Now
they do make them. I think we had talked about.
I know it'll have to come at some point. It'll
you're gonna die laughing when it finally guys, that's sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't give me any heads up. I'm gonna have
to spot it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally man.
Speaker 2: No, but but you know, we've alluded to this throughout
this conversation. But it has to be right for the story.
It has to be right for the moment. You can't
force something like that. I totally understand it. But I
think you would be amazing.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yes, that would be fun. I hope it
happens one day.
Speaker 2: Maybe it will, well, Jared, this has been an absolute
joy to chat with you. Thank you so much, and
I'm looking forward to the future projects. Links are in
the show notes to Jared's website check out what he's
been working on. He's got some samples there. Of course,
several of the radio theater scores I've been released now
you can get those. Anything else you want to.
Speaker 1: Plug No, man, I think that you do a good
job plugging me.
Speaker 2: So thanks well, you bet. Thank you so much for
coming on the show.
Speaker 1: Absolute JD thank you man. That was awesome.
Speaker 2: Well huge. Thank you again to Jared for coming on
the show. It's always a pleasure to talk to him.
He's so talented. I love hearing the behind the scenes
of how these projects come together, on the music side,
on the post production side, on the writing side. I
just find it so interesting and I hope you enjoyed
this conversation as well. I know that several of you
have been asking about when we're going to have John
Campbell come back to finish that conversation that we started
quite some time ago, and hopefully that will be soon
as well. These two names here are the biggest ones
in family friendly audio drama in terms of composing and
it's such a pleasure and an honor for them to
take time out of their schedules to come on the show.
So I'm looking forward to bringing John back. And huge
thanks to Jared for his time in this episode. Well
that's all I've got for you this time. Happy New Year.
Thank you so much for your continued support and listenership
of Audio Theater Central. Be sure to join the ATC Insiders,
which is our email newsletter. We'll email you about the
stuff that we're up to in between episodes if we
have some announcements to make. It's very infrequent. We're not
going to blow up your email inbox, so don't worry
about that. But if you would like to get in
touch with us, Audio Theatercentral dot com slash contact has
all the ways to do that, and of course the
show notes for this episode Audio Theatercentral dot com slash
two o eight. It'll have the links to everything we've
talked about, links to Jared's work, everything that you'll need
to find out about what's coming in twenty twenty five,
all of that good stuff I'll see in the next episode.
Thank you so much for listening. Audio Theater Central is
a production of Portlite Family Media. Our theme music was
composed by Sam Avandanio. The show is produced and edited
by Yours truly JD. Sutter, and our website is audio
Theatercentral dot com. Hey, if you're still listening, I want
to ask you to do a favor for me. Go
over to my website, which is linked in the show notes,
or go to j me slash Aspencreek and check out
those episodes of the micro audio drama series that I'm
working on. If you haven't already, and if you have still,
go over there and get that link and share it
with your friends and family so they'll come check out
the show. I'm hearing from people that they're really enjoying
this slower paced slice of life sort of storytelling. So
if that's something that you think you will enjoy, go
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Speaker 1: Much, Sportlight Familymedia your source for family centered content Scorglightfamilymedia
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