Speaker 1: We're Tom la Rento and this is the Pop Style
Opinion Beest Telegans. Welcome back to another edition of the PSO.
I am the t and you'r t LO Tom Fitzgerald
and I'm here with the low and your t LO
Lorenzo Mark has my lovely husband. How are you one
of those? And it's been a very loud week as
the banging has continued next door and behind us. Not
the good kind of banging, the the lots and lots
of workmen kind of banging. Well that's well, this whole
podcast started off kind of horning. No, it's been a
very loud week and that's part of part of the
reason why we weren't able to do a podcast last
week is we just could not find the time. They
start their work sometimes at six thirty in the morning,
I know, and they're not always taking lunch breaks anymore.
And I honestly think they're ramping it up because the
weather's getting cold and around December they're not going to
be able to do any more outdoor work. Yeah, I'm
telling you, when this is done, this six floor, one
hundred you know, million dollar condo thing that's going up,
all of our water pressure is going to be gone anyway. Anyway,
more than ever, we feel the need to completely, you know,
do our little song and dance and distract you from
all the crazy shit that's going on in the world.
It's a bit of a pod pory this week, a
pod pori of topics. I'm gonna it's been a very
very very busy period. Very happy about that for Red Parpetry.
But I have not been able to do a write
up of Star Trek Strange New Worlds because I I
just can't there's so much going on. So we're going
to talk. I'm going to talk about that. I know
I talked about it a couple of weeks back, so
I'm not going to spend too much time on that,
but you know, for the Trekkers who were interested, I
thought I would throw out my final thoughts on the season.
We're also going to talk about the VMA's Red Carpet,
just briefly as an overview because I was a little
disturbed and Lorenzo has a Netflix documentary to talk about.
And then we're going to I have to say, we
don't have an assignment editor. I always say the one
thing I would want more than anything else in the
world to someone to just tell us what to talk about,
tell us what to podcast about, because coming up with
topics is actually the hardest part.
Speaker 2: We'll send us an email if you have a topic
that you want.
Speaker 1: Us to talk about. But we got contacted by Salon
because they they were doing a fifty year retrospective on
Greg Gardens. And I don't know Andy Zeisler at Salon.
I mean we follow each other. Andy used to write
for Bitch Media and I've always liked her work. She
was writing this piece for Salon on Little Edie Beal
and why she's an inspiration, and she wanted some thoughts
as to why gay men have embraced her so much.
So we sat down and watched the film again because
we hadn't seen it in a couple of years, and
it spurred on so many thoughts. And we're going to
put a link to the Salon piece in the in
this podcast post because it's a really good piece and
we were quoted several times in it. But we had
so many thoughts that I was when we were done,
I was like, you know what, whatever doesn't wind up
in the article, why don't we just talk to talk
about it? Yes, that is something. I mean, Greg, Gardens
is something that we have had a long relationship with
a long understanding of.
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite things topics or yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Surprised we actually haven't talked about it before on this
on this podcast. So we're going to talk a little
bit about Edie Beale and Grey Gardens and why it's
important and why I think fifty years later, you should
watch it with a much more critical eye, right because
there are some ethical questions that have arisen in the
fifty years since it was made. And when I watched
it this week, like I said, for the first time
in five years, I was like, oh, you know, I
think that's true.
Speaker 2: A lot of a lot of documentaries like Paris is
Bernie is another example that, you know.
Speaker 1: Even The Queen, Yeah, exactly, And that was on my
mind because I had just shown The Queen to my sister.
She had never seen it. The Queen is the documentary
from nineteen sixty seven about drag queen competition. It was
very very important in the writing of our book. We
talked about it all the time, and my sister had
never seen it, so we watched it, and even The
Queen is problematic. There are parts where you feel like
the director is looking at animals in a zoo, right,
and sometimes sixties seventies cinema verite style documentary has that
Paris's Burning was the same thing. There was a certain
sort of look at these people who are so unlike myself,
you know, these exotic creatures exactly. So I don't we'll
get into that, but there I have laid out the
menu for you. Yes, and now let's say, let's talk
about the VMEs. So very thrilled that we still are
hired by Cosmopolitan after all these years. I mean, I
think we've been doing it. It's got to be seven
or eight years at this point. And we never know.
We never know we're going to be asked back. We
have a lovely relationship with them, don't get me wrong,
but I mean it's math writing. You never know. Editors
come and go.
Speaker 2: And people changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe we age out of the demographic or whatever,
so we never know. And then we just got word
this month that we're back for every awards show for
the next year at Cosmo. But the reason I'm telling
you this is because I love writing up for Cosmo.
I really do. It's it's a sprint, I mean the
red car whatever red carport we're covering. It starts around
six or seven pm, and I have to have fifteen
hundred words magazine ready words to go by like nine
point thirty, and it's just three and a half hours
of Lorenzo and I scrambling trying to find credits for
each outfit, trying to find pictures for each outfit so
that I, you know, we can assess them top to bottom,
and then producing copy. A show is going as the
show is going on, usually on like two or three
TVs at once in our place. It's frantic. It's why
we have never we haven't had guests over on Oscar
Night in fifteen years. It's a war good night anyway.
My point is love doing all these shows, but the
VMA's is the one show I absolutely hate doing because
give me a string of actors promoting their projects or
getting awards, and I know everything. I know where the
film debuted, I know who the director is, I know
all the talk about it, and it allows me to
put everything there.
Speaker 2: There's more content context yeah, I mean context yeah.
Speaker 1: And even the Grammys we don't cover music all that much.
We only tend to cover like Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Rihanna,
like huge names, people who who are known for being
fashionable or at least known for wearing, you know, attention
getting outfits. But the VMA's is not all It's not
these big established A listers. Of course, there are a
few of them there. Gaga was there this year, didn't
walk the red carpet, But it's usually all of these
you know, they're big stars. They're they're not nothings, but
they're big stars. You know that they became big in
the last eighteen months. They don't have a lot behind them.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. It's a lot of up and coming
artists and you know, they don't really know what to
do and they're learning.
Speaker 1: A lot of them are very young, yeah, and extreme
attention seeking. The VMA's has never been a chic red carpet.
It has all been like Madonna showed up in a
wedding gown forty plus years ago. It was all about
costumes and self promotion and outrageousness and meat dresses and
all of that. So I enjoyed the VMA's red carpet too,
but to write about it on the fly is extremely difficult.
Because you wind up having to look up every single person.
You have to look up their songs, their albums, what
they're nominated for, and on top of everything else, they're
all wearing the most hideous stuff you've ever laid eyes on.
Now that's the setup, and it's a long setup. My
point is we were both a little taken aback this
year because it's the most conservative VMA's red carpet I
have ever seen. And there were only a handful of
outfits that I would call completely crazy or outrageous or
just awful. Right, most of it was just sexy sheikness,
you know. And I want to toss to you, My
point is it bothers me. We are heading in We
are in this moment where, you know, authoritarianism and fascism
is creeping all over the world, and people are scared,
and people who are in the arts and in culture,
I am urging them don't be scared at this time, Like,
don't be scared to be freaky, don't be scared to
be trans, don't be scared to be black, for God's sake,
don't be scared to be queer, don't be scared to
be weird, different and non conformists. The VMA's red Carpet
is like the last place in the world I want
to see conformity, and I felt like I was seeing
more and more of it this year than I've ever
seen before. I will stop because I haven't even given
you a chance to talk.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, I agree with you. I feel like they're
such a great divideer now. And as an artist, I'm
sure you have fans from both sides, and you don't
want to piss one of the sides now too much.
You don't want to lose those fans. I see that
a lot on social media. People more quiet now, not
having too much, you know, not having Aberdeenian celebrities. I'm
talking about celebrities because they have a huge fan base
from various you know, walks of life, and they just
don't want to upset what I mean, the whole thing now.
I see that happening with with Godza for example. Like
some artists saying something and I read the replies, you know,
Billie Eilish, there's so many there, and the criticism is
very harsh because they're fans and they expect you to
agree with them whatever that is. So I feel like
that is sort of like happening now, especially because of
social media. I always say so, social media is very interesting.
It's such a bomb because you know, it can't explode
at any minute. And it's true because people have more
access to whatever you say, whatever you wear, you know, everything,
your brand, whatever you were associated with. And I feel
like that that is sort of like happening on the
red carpet too. People feel they just want to be safe.
They don't want upset anybody. They just they just don't want.
Speaker 1: I want us to push. Yeah, be freaking in response
to this, don't be safe. In response, don't wear Beiesian neutrals,
wear feathers.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Believe me, I'm not arguing for bad taste or anything
like that. I still want people to dress in Chica
on the Red carpet, but I also want them to
express themselves. And like Lorenzo said, and I'm saying, there's
just this sense. You know, we've been in this business
almost twenty years. You don't survive without having your sort
of finger to the wind. I'm not saying I can
predict everything that's happening, but right there's a lot of
indicators that we tend to pay attention to. Some of
which I can't even articulate. It's just like having, you know,
antenna and feeling things out. But there is this sense
in the past. I don't know. Over the summer, I
think it just feels like there's a timidity on the
part of the fashion and celebrity world. And I'm just
begging them, anybody who's listening, any stylist, or anybody who's listening,
don't do that. Don't be timid at this time. You
should be expressive. And the whole point of art is
to express and to challenge and to And I realize
you're all, like, you know, it's most of you were
in it for the money. I get it, you're not.
If you were in it for the art, you'd be
singing at coffee houses or something. But you know, this
is just my urge to to the world of celebrity
and the world of fashion is to not make yourself
small at this time. I mean, this is something I'm
erging everyone to do. But truly, we look to the
expressive to help us through these moments, to help us
through difficult moments. And if we look to you and
and you're being timid and safe and beige and neutral
in response to it. That's not what we're looking for,
that's all. I mean, maybe people disagree, but I would
hate to see a tamping down on blackness and queerness
and anything else that is outside of a very strict,
you know, norm that is being imposed on us. That's all.
That's all I have to say about that deal.
Speaker 2: No, I totally agree. It's a very tough time now
to express yourself in any way without everybody scared. Everybody scared.
I you know, don't take me wrong. We have very
strong opinions about a lot of things, but we're it
gets to a point that you get attacked so much
right when you express yourself that you know, you just
have to think twice and decide if it's worth it.
So yeah, it's tough. It's disappointing. I mean, I'm disappointed
every day, what you know, reading the news and everything.
It's just that's why I'm I Actually, I've always enjoyed
what we do, but I feel like now it's it's
even more of escape for me, you know, Like I'm
doing this red carpet and this our site and television
and movies because I feel like I need to hold
onto this or I will not to vive.
Speaker 1: It's true, all right, putting that aside Star Trek Strange
New Worlds to those abut Trekkers who are listening. I
complained several weeks back that this season wasn't a great one.
It I really loved season one and season two of
this show. Part of the reason I was actually I
was just exchanging dms on Blue Sky with television critic
Moryan because I complained about the show, and then she
followed me, you know, she DMed me and started complaining
about it. And I'm not revealing anything because she's been
public other comments anyway, but we were going back and
forth complaining about this show, and I said, it really
pains me to say this, but part of the reason
it pains me to say that this season has sucked
so much is because this is the best Star Trek
show in twenty plus years, and this is the best
cast of any Star Trek show since the next generation.
And I gotta follow that up. I know people love
DS nine and that, and I you know, I love
DS nine, but there were a lot of people on
that I mean, had a sprawling cast, and it had
a very un Trek like cast in some ways, and
a lot of those people were a lot of those
characters were designed to be relatively annoying. So it's not
that I didn't like the show, but there were characters
and actors on the show that I didn't love. Sorry,
I had to take a sip of water. And then Voyagers.
I told mo Ryan, I was like, I literally loathed
every male character on that show except for the doctor.
I couldn't and that crew Stranger Worlds, every character, every
actor is so so so good. There's so much camaraderie,
there's so much They just work well together and you win.
It's been a long time since I've seen a show
like this where you care about every single cast member
and you would be upset if any one of these
characters were killed off. Of course, the thing was strange
in the Worlds is that literally half the characters cannot
be killed off because this is a prequel series, and
we know that that half of them survived. But still,
I always thought it was doing interesting things. I always
loved the way it had updated the esthetic of track
while still paying homage to the original series. I know
some people think it should all be blinking lights and
cardboard walls like nineteen sixty six, but that is a
very silly way of expecting any science fiction to be.
So this season the show was characterized itself as a
return to episodic Star Trek, to not doing season long arcs,
because this was one of the complaints about Star Trek
Discovery and also about Star Trek Picard, was that they
were doing these long, long, season long, expansive arcs where
the entire universe was, you know, at at you know,
it was in danger, and that gets tiresome, and that
it didn't feel like Star Trek at all. Star Trek
the TV shows were always these episodics, things one you know,
and you would get a one and done and then
you'd move on to the next episode. So that was
one of the appeals of Strange New Worlds right from
the beginning. And I feel like a lot of the
stuff that's wrong with Strange New world Season three is
the show creators listening to the fan base and then
giving them too much of what the familyse loved. So, yes,
it was all these episod you know, it was all
these single episodes, and I have no complain about that,
but they really went all in on each episode being
sort of themy and quirky because last season they did
like an all musical episode, which I actually loved, and
they did an episode where they tied it in with
the cartoon and the cartoon characters from lower decks came.
There were and they've had episodes where everyone's speaking in
like iambic pentameter and all kinds of goofy stuff, and
that's fun and that's fine, but they overdid it this
season and it it felt like every episode felt like
one of those filler episodes of Star Trek back when
there were twenty two episodes a season. But there's only
ten episodes of this show. It's a streaming show, and
I don't need to see a goofy Holo Deck episode.
I mean, I don't mind a Holow Deck episode. It
didn't even bother me that the continuity didn't. They smoothed
it over by saying, you know, they couldn't put it
on the ship and blah blah blah. But when like
that episode, she just it was just a Dixon Hill
episode from the next generation. It was exactly the same storyline.
They didn't change a thing. And this keeps happening with
this show where they keep doing these little homages or
callbacks that make the show feel like it's obsessed with
its own history instead of trying to do something new
or interesting with it now. The final episode aired yesterday
and I didn't hear anything about it. Nobody was talking
about it online and reviews hadn't been posted, and I
was like, huh, that's weird. And then I watched it
and I was like, I think that might be why
it's not a terrible episode. It wraps up some things
about the seasons, and I do think the collage at
the or the montage at the end with all the
characters and showing where they are, it was kind of
cute and kind of fun. Again, I love everybody on
this show, but they did like a ten minute sequence
in this episode that was so clearly a callback to
Piccard's Interlight episode where he lived an entire life time
I'm in the space of a minute or whatever, and
grew old and had children and got married and then
wakes up to this and they did the exact same thing.
The only thing I'll give them credit for was that
they made it very clear what they were doing. Right
in the beginning of the scene, you knew that this
wasn't real. But at the same time, then I was
sitting there for ten minutes going, Okay, we get it.
You're doing another another homage. Can we wrap this up
and move on to the storyline. The problem with with
I keep wanting to quote the next generation. The problem
with Strange in New World is that it has become
too too obsessed with its own lore, with it with
the franchise history, and I had hoped that they would
have used this show to introduce new characters instead of
becoming obsessed with the characters that we already know and
have existed for a long time. So, yeah, we got
this whole thing trying to quote unquote explain why Kirk
and Spock our lifelong friends. And we already know why
they're lifelong friends because we watched it play out over
you know, seventy eight episodes of television in six films.
But we had I have a mind meld, and they
had to talk about how they're going to be friends
for life or whatever, and it's so unsubtle. Another thing,
and I know this is a minor thing, but if
you insist on bringing in all of these characters that
have been portrayed before, you need some consistency in how
these people are going to be portrayed. Ethan Peck is
doing a very good job of giving a spin on
Leonard Nimoy's a delivery and style, and he evokes him
without doing a strict impersonation. Can't remember the name of
the actor who's doing Scotty, but he's also coming in
and he's Scotty. He's recognizably Scotty. And then you have
someone like Huu who is completely different from her character,
doesn't speak the same, doesn't sound the same. I don't care.
I mean, she's younger, whatever. But there has to be
a through line for this charact, Like there are scenes
where it's Kirk and Spock and Ahurra and Kirk and
Spock and Ahora and Scotty and Spock and Scotty sound
exactly like their original characters, and Kirk and a Horror
you have to be told that that's Kirk and a Horre,
like this is what I mean. Like it's so uneven
in that way, and I wouldn't care, except they keep
bringing in all of these characters. I didn't need Scotty.
I don't need Kirk to be showing up in every episode.
It actually diminishes the whole point to this show, which
was to show what the enterprise was like before that
crew came on, and you just keep bringing that crew
in and people like Ortega's never ever get any time
to develop. I'm disappointed because they have already canceled this show.
There's going to be two more seasons, but the final
season is going to be really short, and I would
have loved that if they had continued their the high
quality of the of the work they had done in
season two. But now it's sounds with an end date
already in you know, in the can. And they showed
a preview I think it was a comic con where
next season they all get turned into puppets and I'm like,
oh God, this is it. They're really it's just going
to be all gimmicky, goofy shows from here on out.
One final thing. The finale this season was interesting, and
they wrapped Marie Bateell's story of really Well. I really
loved that character because it's just rare on television generally,
but extremely rare in Star Trek to have a character
like her who's a woman who's likable in commanding, but
also she's kind of prickly, and I like that about her.
I didn't care about her ending. It's a little weird
that she and Pike are both going to get these
bizarre non death endings for themselves. But okay, what I
hated about that storyline was that it didn't feel like
Star Trek at all, because it was all about destiny
and these magic powers and lay lines in space and listen,
Star Trek has never been hard science fiction, but I
really don't like when it starts just going straight up
fantasy and magic. That's not really what I You know,
you can do that on Star Wars, because you know
you've got the Force and all that. But Star Trek,
I want beeps and pu pews, and I want buttons,
and I want science. I want sciencey stuff. I don't
want it is my destiny to turn into this statue
and guard evil for all eternity. Like that was literally
the finale. All Right, we're gonna take a break. Yes,
Lorenzo's pointing and saying, shut the hell up, We're gonna
take a break. We'll be right back, and Lorenzo's gonna
talk about his Well, we'll be right back.
Speaker 2: We're back, and I'm gonna talk about a docmentary, a
new documentary on Netflix that I was watching last night.
It's called Aka Charlie Sheen. I you know the Meati's
talking about it. Some people didn't like it or you know,
don't think it's a great documentary.
Speaker 1: H I was.
Speaker 2: I was on my couch watching TV, and I decided
to just have something on. So I both like, all right,
let me give it a shot, and I actually watched
the whole thing. It's it's an interesting take because it's
his words. He gets to be interviewed and he talks
about what happened in his life, you know, all the
troubles and and everything about it. Uh, the drug abuse
and and the you know, the public downfall and all that.
So it's his version. It's interesting that he has a
lot of guests, a lot of friends and his ex wives.
They all got to be interviewed. Uh. He explains that
his father and his brother decided not to be part
of it. But even seanpan is is it's saying something
you know, got to be interviewed. So it's it's interesting.
It's his take. He talks about the events, what happened
childhood and everything.
Speaker 1: I forgot.
Speaker 2: I mean It's funny because I remember reading about it
all the time. You know, he was on the news
every day all the time for years. Uh So I
remember reading about it, watching the news, you know, about
him and everything, and so I forgot about a lot
of stuff, you know, like like like Heidi Flies, I
forgot about her and and you know, the whole thing
with him and then the madam and all that. She
gets to be interviewed, which is very her her take
is very interesting. So it's it. It's interesting. I didn't
think it added anything new, I mean, except that he
you know, he doesn't really apologize for anything. He explains
things that happened, and it's his take and anyway, he Yeah,
so I watched it. I don't know, I guess would
you I wouldn't recommend it. I don't recommend it because
I felt like it didn't add anything. But it's it's
it's interesting because it reminds you of a time when
the media used to be a lot more aggressive about
these things. You know, I think we cover up more
stuff now things were I think things were more exposed
back then, and I think the media's a little more
careful talking about these things, especially you know, any drug
anything or any you know, prostitution anything. So so that
that was interesting because I was like, oh my god,
I forgot about the media covering this old time and
talking about all that all that stuff all the time.
But at the same time, it reminds you that these
people are normal people. Their privileged with a lot of money,
their celebrities, but they're just normal people fucking up doing
horrible things. You know, you forget about that for a second.
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I mean, can I just
say they're quote unquote normal people who also get entire
documentaries on Netflix where they get to whitewash their own
behavior and tell their version of the story. This is
why I only watched part of this in the background.
I didn't want to watch it because listen, I have
all the sympathy in the world for Charlie Sheen's addiction issues,
and I hope they truly are conquered, but that doesn't
give you a free pass at being an absolute asshole.
And he was an asshole, burning bridges left and right,
destroying careers. I mean when he walked out of two
and a half men, like two hundred people around the
losing work over it. Ten million dollars. I don't care
about the producers or the network, but there were people
on that crew and something like a Netflix. It should
also be said that this documentary is coming out in
tandem with his autobiography. He wrote a memoir, So all
of this is just money. It's just money being thrown
at a guy to whitewash his own reputation. And from
what little I saw of this documentary, because I didn't
want to watch it, I was like, no, I don't
need that. It was just him trying to be charming
and laugh off a lot of seriously fucked up behavior.
Speaker 2: That is true. The only interesting thing is said John
what is his name, John Cryer?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did want to say something about that.
Speaker 2: The Cold Star. He's actually serious about the whole thing,
and he talks how disappointing and it's stressful. Was to
work with him and be around him all that time.
Speaker 1: He said in an interview this week, John Cryer, who
worked with him on Two and a half Men, that
he doesn't know. And I thought this was poignant because
if you've ever known someone who had addiction issues and
you were close to them, this is a common feeling.
He doesn't know if this project, this documentary, this memoir,
is him putting those demons behind him, or whether this
is just another stop in a long line of up
and down behavior that's very self aggrandizing and very self absorbed.
It's hard. It's hard to see whether this is, you
know whatever. I just didn't feel like it was a
good use of my time to watch something like that.
Speaker 2: If you're interested in the subject better, then there's the
niece Richard's talking about making you know, sandwich for his
hookers at some point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of that.
Speaker 2: Heidi Flies talking about her experience with him, so and
Sean Penn talking about there were friends since there were kids,
I believe, or something like that. So there's a lot
of that if you want to, you know, listen to
that part. But what stayed with me was John Cryer
talking about how stressful and how how horrible was to
deal with him, you know, as a co star. You know,
it was just terrible. He didn't know if she was
going to have a job the next day because you
never know how Charlie Sheen was going to behave, you know,
stuff like that. So that was interesting to hear his
take about it. But you know, I didn't feel like
it added anything. I didn't feel like he was truly
I don't know, sorry for whatever happened. You know, it
ends with him talking about you know, his new relationship
with his children, blah blah blah. You know they always
end with that. But I don't know. Yeah, anyway, I
think he's still Charlie Sheen in a way.
Speaker 1: He'll always be Charlie Sheen. All right, Is that it
on that?
Speaker 2: Yes, that's it. But I happened to just catch it
last night. I wasn't planning on watching it, but you know,
if you want to give it a shot, if that's
your thing. But it took me right back to that
time when the news were talking about him the entire time.
Very interesting.
Speaker 1: Yep, all right, I'll take a short break and we'll
be right back to talk about Greg Gardens. We're back,
and we thought we would, as we said at the
top of the podcast, you know, inspired by a interview
we just gave to Salon, we thought we would weigh
in on the fiftieth anniversary of Grey Gardens because it
has always been you know, I really don't know the
first time I saw Greg Garden.
Speaker 2: I was I was young.
Speaker 1: If I had to guess. I probably saw it in
film school. I mean, I'm sure I saw it in school,
so that would probably have been the first time I
saw it. It really didn't it was. It came out
in nineteen seventy five documentary by the Mazels brothers, David
and Albert Mazl's documentarians, and it actually didn't do all
that great, like a lot of these types of things
that didn't do all that great at the time, and
then it became discovered over the years, and the sort
of cult of personality surrounding the Bells grew over that time.
In the nineties, it got rediscovered, probably on home video,
and it spurred on a Broadway musical, a very successful
Broadway musical, and a dramatic adaptation in two thousand and nine,
I Believe with Drew Barrymore and Jessica Jessica Lang and
It's funny Andy Zeisleret Salon was interviewing us, and I
wanted to tell this story, and I actually forgot to
because part of the gist of it was why are
gay men interested? Why were gay men always so interested
in Edie Beal. When we saw the two thousand and
nine dramatization, which that's going and drew at a screening, Wow,
you remember? You don't remember that? I remember because screenings
in Philadelphia, and it was a critics screening. It was
for you know, critics and influencers or whatever. And typically
in Philadelphia, the screenings are not packed. There's only so
many critics and influencers and bloggers locals exactly. So whenever
we have gone to a screening here in Philadelphia, it
was usually a sparsely packed theater. And we walked into
this theater and it was packed.
Speaker 2: Really I don't remember, I.
Speaker 1: Do, and we actually had to find seats and we
were both like, wow, it's really packed here. It's really
packed here. And I guess we weren't looking around at everyone,
because why would you. That would be a little goofy.
It was I don't even know the first moment. I
actually do want to watch the dramatization again because I
haven't watched it a long time. I don't know what
the first moment in the film is. That's funny, but
a funny moment happened. The theater erupted and laughter, and
we both went, oh, it's all gay men, that's it's
all game was. It was a theater full of gay men.
They had just invited half the game men in Philadelphia,
and we were all there in that theater laughing. And
if you recall, and this came up in our interview,
Jinx monsoon on on drag Race did an absolutely epic
snatch game version of Larry Styles little Edi Beal and
nailed the character Cole Escola, who you know, just won
the Tony for Oh Mary. He posed or they posed
on the cover of New York Magazine, Uh, dressed like
Edie Beal? So why do queer men love Edie Beal
so much? Why don't you start? Do you want to start?
Or do you want me to? I want?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I I I actually mentioned that
when we were giving the interview for Salon. I said,
it's it's interesting because I I I'm on TikTok and
I've been watching a lot of people influencers or people
with channels doing you know, little doing doing the character
and wearing those clothes and you know, repeating the lines
and everything. And I find that very interesting that because
I think that's one great thing about TikTok is that
they bring back all these old stuff that nobody's talking
about right, and and they present it on TikTok and
and a lot of the young kids don't know anything
about it, and then they get interested and so on.
So I find it interesting that even today people still
find those lines very funny, and and the costumes, in
the fashion and the style. I think that's fascinating. I
think I remember being very young with my friends watching it,
and we, I mean, we were so fascinated by the
whole thing. Obviously we were too young to, you know,
process all the drama and and and the sadness of
it all. But at the time the time, I was
focused on the fashion and and the funny lines and
everything they say. And I think that's that's why there's
so many things. We'll talk about a lot of things,
I think.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start with the Little Edie. We could
talk about Big d but let's face it, Little Edie
is the star of the film, and she's the one
that gay man are responding to in all this time.
Why do people people generally, why do people generally respond
to Little Edie? And you you touched on some of
this people. She's very quotable, right, Almost every single thing
she says in the movie is a quotable line about
how I have to find that libraman and staunch character
and all that stuff. This is the best outphab of
the day. You understand, she has a very distinct way
of talking. She she's extremely articulate, and she uh and
it's oh my god, her her need to be heard
is so powerful and so sometimes painful to watch because
she is trying so hard to punch through the noise
and the and the trash of her life to to
just be heard. She has a very you know, both
women have very distinct ways of talking because they had
that early twentieth century mid Atlantic accent that actually their
cousin or cousin, no cousin Jackie Kennedy had. They both
talk like Jackie, And I think part of that, that
is part of the fascination is these women have these
extremely high faluting, cultured sort of way of speaking and
they are just living in trash, right, And that's you know,
fascinating to watch now with Edie. If if she was
just some tragic character who just lived in in filth,
then this, this film would have been forgotten. I don't
even know if it would have been made. But she
she tries so hard to find some form of beauty
and self expression in that in that life, and some
of that is in how she dresses. If you haven't
seen the film, I would urge you to see it. Actually,
it is a classic. It's fascinating. It can be a
difficult watch in the modern day because I think we
have a better understanding of mental health, right and it's
far far more clear in twenty twenty five that this
is a film about two women with serious mental health issues.
And I don't know if the Maisles understood that about
them at the time. The understanding of them at the
time was that they were eccentrics. That's how we like
to think of people who are like that, formerly wealthy
people who live in filth and well, they're eccentrics, and
that's true. I mean Edie Little Edie especially was something
of an eccentric. But you watch that film today and
it's like, yeah, okay, but they're eccentric, but they're also serious,
serious mental illness on both of their parts.
Speaker 2: Right. The thing is that she's extremely intelligent.
Speaker 1: At sme are just pain Polly Intelli, And.
Speaker 2: Then with all the mental issues, of course, you're going
to still be articulate and and and intelligent, but you know,
if you really look at it, there's something wrong there.
I think, uh talking about queer people, and I can
speak for myself only, and is that I think we
we we appreciate them because first of all, their survivors,
you know, they they they they went through so much. Yes,
they went through so much. And I think we can't
forget their women at a time when women had to
you know, obey and behave a certain way and had
to do whatever their father their husband told them to do.
And they keep mentioning that all the time in the
documentary that she ended up with her choices because of
the father, because the father decided what they were going
to do. And I think they, you know, the whole
idea that you always have to conform as a woman
now and back then, and that you gave you know,
sometimes you're forced to give up your dreams. Like both
of them, the mother and the daughter, they were both
very talented, but they had to give up their their
dreams of becoming anything singer, artists, you know, actor or whatever,
and that whole idea of that, I mean even littly
Edie had too. She ran away to New York, you know,
to try something different so that she would end up
the way she did. And I think queer people can
relate a lot to that, you know, Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: There are scenes in the film where she says and
it really broke my heart, and watching it this time
because I was I was watching it with a queer eye,
because I knew we were going to be questioned about,
you know, why the queer men love her so much.
And there are scenes where she's pacing back and forth
on that porch or in that foyer and saying, I
got to get out of this house. I've got to
get to New York. I've got to get out of
this town. And I mean she's a fifty six year
old woman at this point, She's not some kid. But
can any queer person understands that that feeling. I gotta
get out of this house, I gotta get out of
this family, I gotta get out of this town. I
have to get out into the world where I can
be myself. Yes, And because she couldn't get out into
the world and be herself and she was stuck in
this cage. She and again, if you're every queer kid
went through this as you're just making your little things
inside your little cage. You're a little expressive. You're dyeing
your hair a weird color, you're piercing yourself, or you're
drawing on your jeans, And she was doing it through
her clothing. She lost her hair. Some reports or that
she burned it off in a she had a you know,
a break, a psychological break, and she wound up literally
setting her hair on fire. I don't know how true
that is. I think it's pretty clear in the film
that she has alopecia, that she doesn't have eyebrows or
eyelashes either, So you never see her because she started
wearing articles of clothing on top of her head and
pinning them. Not quite like turbans, but like head scarves
more like yeah, actually very similar in the way a
lot of Muslim women wear head scarves tight to the
head and then pinned and long in the back. The
differences that she didn't have access to a lot of
silk scarves anymore, so she was doing things like pinning
sweaters and hats and shirts up on top of her head.
And I will never claim that her outfits were impeccable,
but they were definitely interesting. And they were definitely there
was a definite style there. And we said this to
Andy and in our interview, to me, my god, having
written legendary Children and done all this research on drag
queens picking out of trash to find some way to
make themselves beautiful, that that is as queer as queerness. No,
I don't think Edie was. She was clearly ahead aosexual woman.
I'm not saying that, but culturally, on an identity level,
that sort of behavior is so so queer coded. To
just take little whatever trash or things you can find
in your life and twist them and turn them and
pin them up, and you come up with something completely
unique that nobody else would have thought of. That's queer art,
that's queer expression. And I do think that is why
queer men, yes, respond to her so much.
Speaker 2: I think the fashion and how stylish and unique she was.
I think that's one element that we all you know, admire,
and many collections, many designers you know were inspired by her,
created entire collections based on what she wears. I love
what she wears. We watched the documentary again and I
was paying attention to every every.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how she puts them together.
Speaker 2: Amazing, It's beautiful. I absolutely love every single one of
them because they're collor coordinated. She knew it's exactly what
she's doing.
Speaker 1: Every detail has been thought of. I mean, it's a
little crazy. If you saw a woman walking down the
street like that, she'd be like, Okay, what's wrong with her?
Speaker 2: But at the same time, to me, at least it
makes sense because she explains why she shows whatever she shows,
and you're like, you know what.
Speaker 1: Girls good over the pants.
Speaker 2: She's just amazing. Yeah, I wonder the poster has her
wearing a coat. I wonder if she has that. Actually,
I guess she.
Speaker 1: Wore that I think to the premiere as well in
New York. So yeah, that was hers. I mean it
was probably flee Bitten and Ratty, but it was her.
Speaker 2: We never see it in a documentary, I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I don't so that. That was the cover of New
York magazine. Oh that wasn't before the documentary. It was
a story written about them, I think before the documentary
came out, because it was a scandal. They were Jackie's
customs and they were living in filth.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because it's you know, she's surrounded by philth.
They are surrounded by filth and everything is so dirty,
and but it's it's an interesting take and way of living.
I think.
Speaker 1: I don't want to romanticism.
Speaker 2: No, I don't want to romanticize it. But but there's something.
Speaker 1: They were living with wild animals, yes, but.
Speaker 2: There's something freeing also about it.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to do that. I mean, you are.
Speaker 2: Because you have no other choice, That's what I'm saying. Yeah,
I mean, I'm not saying that's the way of to
live because it's failth everywhere. But that's what they had
at the time. And but you know, it's a shame
because it's a beautiful house.
Speaker 1: And it was it is again it's now right right,
it's been remodeled and it's I actually watched the house
video last night. This women's wear designer who I never
heard of, bought the house from Ben Bradley and Sally Quinn,
who bought it from Little Edie in like nineteen seventy
nine and Ben Bradley, who was the editor in chief
of The Washington Post for many many years. Ben Bradley
and Sally Quinn, of course they renovated it and in fact,
when they bought it. They paid two hundred thousand for
it in nineteen seventy nine, which was a chunk of change.
It allowed a little Eaedie to move to Florida and
live there out the rest of her life. But they
she only sold it to them on the agreement that
they would never tear it down, and so they had
to pour a ton of money into getting that house
livable again, and that Sally Quinn wrote years later that
in the summertime you could still smell raccoon urine. When
the house got hot, Oh my god. And then the
house got sold again, I think in twenty seventeen to
this woman. I'm sorry, I can't remember her name, and
I watched a house video last night. She renovated it.
She completely renovated. I mean, I don't think she tore
down walls. The layout is exactly the same, but the
style is hard. It's very much this Palm Springs sort
of spot. It has a pool, and that's fine, I mean,
but it's the style is very like Lily Pulitzer. It's
all bright and lots of fabricks and lots of prints
and everything, and it just looks awful to me. Obviously,
not that the nineteen seventy five version of the house
with the holes in the floorboards and the raccoon shit
all over the place, was any better. But anyway, going
back to the Beals and the Mazels, the documentarians, I
did want to touch on there's always been a question
of whether the Mazels had exploited them. And Andy Zeisler
in her interview with us, she talked a bit about
She asked us a bit about fashion and how the
fashion world has taken some inspiration from Edie and that
there have been high end fashion collections that have walked
runways that you took inspiration from Edie, And there have
been editorials in Vogue magazine that took inspiration from Edie
and Andy's perspective, and I think it's an absolutely legitimate one.
Is isn't this a little unseemly when fashion takes pulls
from tragic lives? And you know, because Edie's not getting
any money off this is she's This all happened after
Edie died and everything, and now you know, people are
walking runways in two thousand dollars outfits based on her aesthetic.
And I understand that I do, but I, for one,
my first response to that was, well, yeah, but Edie
would have loved this. Like Edie, I can't claim to
speak for her, but the Edie that I saw on
that screen would have loved to have known that, you know,
three decades after her death, that pieces were walking the
runway inspired by her esthetic, don't. I don't think it's
exploited because number one, it happened after she died. Long
after she died. People weren't ripping her off. They were
paying homage to her. And I would say that, you know,
fashion pulls from the impoverished all the time, It pulls
from the not necessarily saying all the time. That is
what art does. That is you know. And you can say, well,
it commodified her mental illness or whatever, but I really
don't look at it that way. As someone who writes
about fashion, I do think her her sense of style
truly is inspiration. You can take inspiration from how she
put her clothes together, and I don't think a designer
is wrong to do that. Now Oh sorry, god, no.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think in terms of fashion, fashion is
always very irresponsible where they get their inspiration from. I mean,
we had oil spills, you know, we have all kinds
of stuff. I mean, they have photoshoops in the supermarket,
you know too, you know, oh, let's let's let's get
couture into into supermart, into a supermarket. And if you
really think about it, you know it says a lot
about fashion. So I yeah, but I do. I do
think that fashion designers are truly inspired by her, are
truely mesmerized by her choices, her uniqueness, her style. I
do think.
Speaker 1: So Otherwise, what you let it die because you don't
want to exploit her. I think she would rather her
aesthetic lived on past her death. So and even if
people wind up making money off it, I mean a
lot of people made money off the bills. The Broadway
play made millions and millions and millions.
Speaker 2: Of dollars, and the HBO show and so on. So
the HBO show it's actually very good. I highly recommend
if you haven't seen any.
Speaker 1: It fills in the blanks.
Speaker 2: Drew Barrymore is amazing, and Jesscaling, my god, my goddess.
They're both amazing.
Speaker 1: So much so that when we were watching the documentary
again this week, I turned to you and I said,
I can't. I can't look at these scenes without picturing
Jessica Lang and too Barrymore. That did such a good job.
Speaker 2: God, that's a very good take. That's a very good point.
Drew Barrymore was amazing. I remember her fighting for the
world at the time. She's saying that, please please let
me play her. Yeah, you know, I'll change the way
I speak, because you know, people make fun of the
way Drew wild.
Speaker 1: It was about twenty years too young, but she looked
just like her.
Speaker 2: But she said, please let me do it. And Jesskaling
my god, oh my god, I actually want to watch
it again. So it's on HBO. I loved it. I
thought it was beautiful because the documentary is just showing
them in the house and HBO the HBO series did
did a little bit of you know, flashback. He tell
the whole story and you understand things a little better.
And it's interesting because I was fascinated by them because
they I mean, there's two brothers that we don't see
in the documentary. There's more to it, you know, if
you go and and check all the names they mentioned,
the people she dated, little Edie dated, and everybody, there's
a lot. I mean, he keeps getting bigger and bigger
the story and more and more interesting. The guy, the
grocery guy. I didn't know that, and later I found
out he was. He's queer, he's gay, he's he's you
know in the documentary a.
Speaker 1: Lot marble phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very very interesting guy too.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I agree in terms of the masales and weather
whether this is an exploitive film. Like I said, I
think there are times in the film. There's a scene
near the end with big Edie in bed singing and
the camera just ling lingers over the filthy mattress and
her dirty toe nails, and I'm just like, yeah, see,
that's where you lose me. I mean, from their perspective,
from the Mazles perspective, they're showing you the truth of
the situation. This is how she lives. But when you
do these lingering shots of filth and I mean to
be perfectly blunt, degraded bodies, there's a certain sense of
that does feel a little exploited. On the other hand,
it's hard for me. I'm not a clinician, obviously, and
I don't even think a clinician could diagnose women these
women through a documentary, but I don't feel that they
had cognitive disorders. I don't feel like they didn't know
what was going on around them. I don't get that
impression at all. I think they are well aware of
how they come across. And they were both absolutely thrilled
by the attention, right. They loved having those cameras on them.
They loved being able to sing, being able to dance,
being able to tell whatever stories they wanted to tell,
and on that, And I think the Mazos would have argued,
and I think they would be right that as filmmakers,
they're giving these women a voice when society would have
rather they shut up and go away, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, at some point in the documentary literally he
says I didn't know I needed to you in my life,
or something like that.
Speaker 1: So heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: It's heartbreaking. If you've never watched a documentary. I highly
recommend it. It's a very good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2: I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1: It's on Prime Video.
Speaker 2: You watch it in the beginning, it's actually fascinating and
you know you're fascinated by it, But it gets to
a point where it just gets tougher to watch because
they get more confrontational. You know, they get into fights
and and I guess because they have spent more time
with the with the guys now filming everything.
Speaker 1: It's just it so.
Speaker 2: They're more familiar with them, more comfortable with them, so
more stuff comes out and you're like, Wow, that's when
you start going like, Okay, that's that's that's tough.
Speaker 1: But it's a complicated film, and I did enjoy watching
it again, if only to be in little Lady's company again,
to hear her thoughts and to watch her just how
she engages with the world. She was truly a unique character,
and if this film hadn't quote unquote exploited these women,
we'd never have known about her, and I think the
world would have lost out. I'm not not knowing about
Lady Beale.
Speaker 2: One of the good things about the documentary is that
after the documentary came out, the family helped, right, and
it didn't somebody help.
Speaker 1: Now, this was before the document Yeah, that's the cleaned
up house version of the house.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yes, Jackie did give something like two hundred thousand dollars too,
because it made the made New York magazine. It was
a huge scandal, and the film opens up with all
of that newspaper clippings and in order for them to
get because they were going to be evicted in the
house was going to be condemned, and it made the press,
and these were Jackie's cousins and so it was a
huge scandal. And Jackie and I believe her sister Lee
also put money up to have the house. You didn't
know this, Wow, that's why. If you look, the walls
are all freshly painted. That bedroom is bright yellow, and
the vestibule is bright blue. Everything's been painted and cleared out.
They cleared out all the trash. And this is actually
in the HBO movie. That's how I knew it. But yeah,
that's the cleaned up version of the house. That's how
bad things were. They were living in piles and piles
of filth, and in the documentary they're still not living
in sanitary conditions. But you it's a little bit better.
It's slightly better.
Speaker 2: You're right because certain parts of the documentary it looks cleaner.
The walls are cleaner. And then I actually was like, oh.
Speaker 1: I actually had guests over for a birthday party. They did, so, yeah,
I do recommend it. I think it's I think there's
just something painful but hopeful about it. Someone like Edie,
like someone who has been so beaten down by life
and by the choices other people made, and by restrictions
placed upon her. But the fight to be heard, to
express herself, to be the person that she knows she's
supposed to be. That's poignant as how, watching her struggle
against her chains.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, it's hopeful in a way, and I
think it's if nothing else makes you understand people a
little better, that not everybody has the same thing to
pull off, you know, or to get get out of
a situation. You know, sometimes you're you're stuck with whatever
you have and you can't really change reality, or sometimes
you can, or or sometimes you're very delusion about it
and you keep going. You know, people have different ways
to react to things. But it's clearly, it's very clear
to me when you watch the episode that these two
women could have been incredible, successful.
Speaker 1: Or whatever they had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they different sort of lives, different sort of a
you know, reality, So that part is very set. Yeah,
just just set greed.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Go watch Great Gardens, Yes every thought we have
on the fiftieth anniversary of it, and let us know
what you think. We'll be back next week. With whatever
crosses our eyes across their desks. Until then, take care
of yourselves, love you mean it.
Speaker 2: By bye bye the creek and a gran Creek and
a Fi Tank Creek and the grafl Fu to Saxton