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Speaker 1: Okay, so picture this future archaeologists, way way in the future,

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thousands of years from now, they're digging through what's left

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of well us, our civilization. What do you think they'd

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make of like a fossilized twinkie, you know, or like

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a petrophied smartphone. Kind of a funny thought, right, but

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it actually leads perfectly into what we're diving deep into today.

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It's called the Silurian hypothesis, and the basic idea is,

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could there have been like other civilizations before humans even

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existed here on Earth, civilizations that just vanished, you know,

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no trace.

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Speaker 2: It's a wild idea for sure. And you know the

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tricky part is trying to find proof of any civilization

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gets way harder the further back you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. It's not like we're tripping over dinosaur bones

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every day, and they were around for what like eighty

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million years, a long time. So speaking of dinosaurs, how

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does like the way the Earth naturally changes make this

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search even tougher?

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Speaker 2: Well, imagine the Earth's surface like a giant jigsaw puzzle,

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but the pieces are always moving. You've got plate tectonics, erosion, volcanoes,

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it's all constantly shifting. Things around.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, and the.

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Speaker 2: Oldest exposed land, the stuff we can actually see and study,

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it's only about one point eight million years old. Anything

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older than that probably buried deep underground.

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Speaker 1: So if you're looking for like a lost city from

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millions of years ago, it's kind of like trying to

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find a needle in a haystack the size of the

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entire planet pretty much.

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Speaker 2: And then there's fossilization, our usual way to peek into

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the past. But I gotta remember fossils, they're super rare.

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They need the perfect conditions to even form, like buried quickly,

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not much oxygen around, tons of pressure. Even with dinosaurs

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who are stomping around for ages, we've only found a tiny,

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tiny fraction of the remains.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that really puts things in perspective. If finding dino

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bits is that hard, imagine trying to find traces of

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like a civilization that might not have been as big

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or around for as long exactly.

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Speaker 2: Plus, even if they were super advanced, their stuff wouldn't

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last forever. I mean, metal rusts, concrete crumbles, give it

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a few thousand years tops, and those traces are gone.

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Speaker 1: So we're probably not going to find like crumbling ruins

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or fossilized iPhones, then probably not. But the Celarian hypothesis

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it suggests a different way to look for these lost

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civilizations right right.

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Speaker 2: Instead of hunting for actual objects, it says, look for

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subtle changes in the Earth's chemistry. It's geology kind of

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like trying to find a fingerprint, but the print is

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in the planet's history.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, I get it. So instead of searching for

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the needle in the haystack, we're looking for like a

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specific pattern in the hay itself. You got it. But

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how would that even work.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's start with something you might have heard of,

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the anthropiscene. It's what we call the current geological age,

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the one where humans are basically the biggest influence on

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the environment. And get this, we're leaving behind some pretty

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clear markers that could be detectable millions of years from now.

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Speaker 1: Even though we haven't built any like fancy space ships

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or anything yet, we're still leaving our mark on the

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planet in a way that like future civilizations, maybe even

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alien archaeologists might notice.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. For one thing, all the fertilizer we use, it's

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messing with the planet's nitrogen cycle. The ratio of different

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nitrogen isotopes is changing and that gets preserved in sedimentary rocks.

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It's like we're signing our name in the planet's chemistry book,

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you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, interesting. So it's not just about what we build,

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but about how we change the planet's natural processes. What

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other markers are we leaving.

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Speaker 2: Well, think about all the soil erosion that happens because

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of farming and cutting down forests. That soil washes into

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the oceans and eventually it forms layers of sediment. And

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you've got mining. All those metals we dig up, gold, platinum,

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they end up in those same sediment layers. It's like

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we're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs, but the bread crumbs

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are like heavy metals.

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Speaker 1: That's a pretty wild image. But are these changes really

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like big enough to be noticeable millions of years later.

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The Earth's gone through so many natural transformations over time.

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How would we tell the difference between those and the

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changes we're making.

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Speaker 2: That is a great question and it's something scientists are

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really working on figuring out. Yeah, Earth's systems are complicated, right,

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Separating natural changes from the human caused ones is a

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tough job. But there's one marker that might really stand out.

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It's called the SEUs effect.

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Speaker 1: The SEUs effect, like doctor Seuss, Did he write a

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book about climate change? I missed or something?

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Speaker 2: No, No, not quite. It's actually named after Hans Seuss,

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a scientist who studied carbon isotopes and the SEUs effect.

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It describes how burning fossil fuels is changing the balance

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of those isotopes in the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it is about our carbon footprint, But like

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on a deeper level, why would this SEUs effect be

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so important for future civilizations.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing about carbon. It comes in different

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forms called isotopes, and plants that they prefer to absorb

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a lighter form of carbon twelve when they're doing photosynthesis.

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So the animals that eat those plants, and the animals

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that eat those animals, they all end up with more

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carbon twelve in them. Okay, but when we burn fossil fuels,

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you know, which are basically ancient plant matter, we release

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a ton of this carbon twelve back into the atmosphere,

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and that messes up the natural balance of carbon isotopes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this shift.

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Speaker 2: We can see it in the air and the oceans,

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and most importantly, it gets trapped in those sedimentary rocks.

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Speaker 1: So future civilizations could analyze those rocks, see this sudden

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jump in carbon twelve and be like, hold on, someone

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was burning a lot of stuff back then.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Of course, other things can cause spikes in carbon

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twelve too, like volcanoes erupting, But the size and the

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suddenness of the change, especially when you see it along

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with those other markers like the weird nitrogen levels and

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the heavy metal deposits, well, that could be a strong

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sign of an industrial civilization.

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Speaker 1: It's like putting together a puzzle, right right, Each piece

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gives you more of the whole picture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just about finding a lost city or

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like a rusty robot. We're talking about figuring out the

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chemical history of the entire planet to find these subtle

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hints of a civilization that's long gone.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: This is seriously fascinating stuff, it is.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just about looking back in time here

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on Earth either. Oh, the Silurian hypothesis. It actually has

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some big implications for our search for life on other

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planets too.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, Okay, now that is what I call a cliffhanger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the search for life outside of Earth. It always

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gets people excited, you know, and when you add in

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the solarian hypothesis, well, it really opens up all kinds

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of possibilities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like taking off blinders, right, Like, we could

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be looking for the wrong things if we're only searching

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for civilizations that are kind of like ours.

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Speaker 2: That is exactly, if we accept that civilizations can rise

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and fall and you know, maybe only leave these subtle

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chemical clues behind, it changes how we think about finding

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extraterrestus life.

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Speaker 1: So instead of like hoping to pick up a radio

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signal from an alien civilization, maybe we should be looking

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for chemical imbalances in a planet's atmosphere.

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Speaker 2: That's definitely one way to go about it. Think about it,

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if a civilization on another planet went through their own

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industrial age and then you know, collapsed, we might not

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find things like cities or spaceships, but we could still

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find those chemical fingerprints, those telltale signs we talked about.

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Speaker 1: Like the CFCs you mentioned before, the stuff we used

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in like refrigerators and spray cans before we figured out

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they were messing up the ozone layer.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, if we found CFCs in a planet's atmosphere, that'd

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be a pretty good sign that there was industrial activity,

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even if that civilization is long gone.

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Speaker 1: It's like finding it, like an empty plastic bottle on

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a deserted island. You know someone was there, even if

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you can't see them anymore.

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Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it, and it brings

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a whole new level of complexity to the Drake equation.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the Drake equation that always makes my head spin

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a little. It's that equation that tries to calculate how

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many detects civilizations might be out there.

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Speaker 2: That's the one. It takes into account all kinds of

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factors like how many stars are forming, how many of

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those stars have planets, how many of those planets could

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support life. It's basically trying to put numbers to how

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much we don't know about the universe.

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Speaker 1: But even with all those unknowns, the Drake equation suggests

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that there could be like millions, maybe even billions of

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civilizations out there.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's where the Clarian hypothesis gets really interesting.

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What if civilizations don't just pop up once on a planet?

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What if they happen multiple times? Like what if intelligence evolves,

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you know, thrives for a while, then disappears, and then

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millions of years later it happens all over again.

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Speaker 1: WHOA. So you're saying there could be multiple cycles of

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civilization on a single planet. That's that's incredible. So a

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planet could be full of life, even intelligent life at

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one point, yeah, then go quiet for millions of years,

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and then boom, it all starts up again.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely a possibility. And if that's the case, then

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our chances of a civilization that's active right now while

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we're looking are much lower. Even if there have been

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many civilizations over time, it all comes down to timing.

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Speaker 1: So we could be looking at a planet that's in

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a like a quiet phase right now, missing out on

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all the action that happened millions of years ago. It'd

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be like tuning into a radio station after the song

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you wanted to hear has already finished.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. But the Silurian hypothesis has another side to it.

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It encourages us to look for signs of past life

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in some unexpected places, even right here in our own

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solar system.

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Speaker 1: Wait, are you suggesting there could have been ancient civilizations

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on like Mars.

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Speaker 2: It might sound crazy, but it's not totally out there.

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Billions of years ago, Mars was way warmer and wetter

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than it is now. We know there used to be

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rivers and lakes, maybe even in ocean. It's possible that

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life could have evolved there, maybe even to the point

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of intelligence.

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Speaker 1: So instead of little green men, we might find traces

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of little red men hiding under the Martian surface. Now,

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that would be a story for the history books.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just Mars Venus, even though it's super

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hot now, it's thought to have been habitable a long

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time ago. And then there's Europa, one of Jupiter's moons.

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It has a huge ocean under its icy surface.

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Speaker 1: Wow. The solarian hypothesis really does like unlock all these

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new possibilities for where and how we look for life.

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It's like a universal key exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's a reminder that the universe is vast and ancient

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and full of surprises. We haven't found solid proof of

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other civilizations yet, but the search itself is pretty amazing,

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you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really makes you wonder what stories are out

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there just waiting to be discovered.

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Speaker 2: It does. But let's bring it back to Earth for

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a minute. Remember that event you mentioned before, the one

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that seemed kind of similar to what we're doing now

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with fossil fuels and climate change. The Paleocene Eocene, themal

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maximum or PTM.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the PTM that happened, like what fifty six

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million years ago? Global temperatures and carbon levels spiked. Suddenly.

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It does sound kind of familiar, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It does. So the question is, did some ancient civilization

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have their own version of an industrial revolution, pump a

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bunch of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and cause a

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climate catastrophe.

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Speaker 1: It's a tempting theory, for sure, but I'm guessing the

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answer is a little more complicated than that.

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Speaker 2: Well, the similarities are definitely there, but the scientific community

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generally thinks that the PTM was caused by natural processes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so no ancient SUVs driving around fifty six million

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years ago. So what's the main theory for what caused

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the PTM? Then?

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Speaker 2: Most scientists believe it was massive volcanic eruptions. There's evidence

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of a lot of volcanic activity during that time period,

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especially in the North Atlantic, and those eruptions would have

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released huge amounts of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases

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which would have led to that rapid warming.

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Speaker 1: So instead of factories and cars, it was volcanoes acting

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like the planet's carbon emitters. But even if the PTM

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wasn't caused by some ancient civilization, it still shows us

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how big of an impact carbon emissions can have on

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the Earth, no matter where they come from.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a powerful reminder that Earth's climate system is

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very sensitive to changes in greenhouse gas levels, whether those

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gases come from volcanoes, fossil fuels, or anything else. The

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PTM is like a warning from the past, showing us

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what can happen when the planet's carbon cycle gets disrupted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a sobering thought. It seems like the PTM,

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even though it's not proof of an ancient civilization, it

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gives us some valuable insights into what could happen because

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of our own actions.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. The PTM was not a fun time for life

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on Earth. Temperatures shot up, the oceans became more acidic,

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and there were extinctions all over the place. It took

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tens of thousands of years for the planet to recover.

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Speaker 1: So even though we might be the first civilization on

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Earth to drive cars and stuff, we're definitely not the

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first to have a big impact on the planet, and

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we're not the first to experience the consequences of messing

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with the climate.

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Speaker 2: That's a good point. It seems like every civilization faces

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its own set of challenges, but there are also some

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universal lessons that we can learn from the past.

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Speaker 1: It's a reminder that we're all connected to each other,

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to the history of life on this planet, and maybe

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even to other civilizations that might have come before us.

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Speaker 2: It's a humbling thought. But let's not get too caught

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up in the big picture. We've talked about how hard

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it is to find proof of past civilizations, the possibility

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of multiple cycles of civilization on a planet, and the

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clues that the PTM offers. But what does it all

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mean for us for humanity right now?

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Speaker 1: That's a huge question, and honestly, I think it deserves

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its own deep dive. But for now, let's shift gears

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and explore what the Silurian hypothesis means for the future

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of humanity. Okay, so we're back and ready to tackle

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that big question. We've gone deep into the solarian hypothesis,

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talked about how hard it is defined evidence considered those

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multiple cycles of civilization, even peaked into Earth's pass with

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the PTM. But what does all this mean for us

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right now?

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Speaker 2: It really makes you think about where we fit in

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in the grand scheme of things. You know, It's like

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it challenges us to look beyond just our own lifetimes

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and think about what we're leaving behind for well, everyone

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and everything that comes after us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you're zooming out on that timeline of

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history and you realize, oh, our civilization is just a

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tiny blip. It's kind of humbling and maybe a little

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scary too, for sure.

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Speaker 2: And it brings up some big questions about where we're headed,

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Like if there were civilizations before us, what happened to them?

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Did they face the same problems we're dealing with now,

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did they find solutions, or you know, did they just collapse.

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Speaker 1: It's like trying to solve a puzzle, but you only

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have a few pieces. We get these little hints about

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the past, these glimpses, but the whole picture is still

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a mystery, and it makes you wonder are we on

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the same track, Like are we going to repeat the

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mistakes of whoever came before?

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Speaker 2: The Silurian hypothesis doesn't give us any easy answers, but

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it does give us a new way to look at things.

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It makes us think about what kind of legacy we're

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leaving not just for our kids and grandkids, but for

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any intelligent life that might come after us way down

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the lines.

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Speaker 1: It's like, we have to be better ancestors. We have

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to make choices that create a better future, not just

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for us, but for all forms of life that could

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end up on this planet.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. It's all about understanding that we're part of something bigger,

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something that stretches across time and space. The things we

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do today they have effects that go way beyond just

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us right here, right now.

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Speaker 1: It's a big responsibility, but it's also I do it

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feels kind of empowering too, Like we have this chance

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to learn from the past, to try a different path,

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to make a future that's better for everyone and everything.

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Speaker 2: And who knows, maybe millions of years from now, some

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future civilization will look back at us and see that

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we made the right choices. They might find those techno

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signatures we leave behind and be inspired by what we accomplished.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a nice thought. It'd be amazing to

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be remembered as the generation that actually turned things around

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the ones who set humanity on a path towards a brighter.

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Speaker 2: It would it's a goal worth fighting for.

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Speaker 1: Well, this deep dive has been Wow. Quite the journey, right,

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so many mind blowing ideas and thought provoking questions. But

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before we finish up, I want to leave our listeners

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with one last thought experiment. Imagine you're that archaeologist from

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the distant future digging through the layers of time. What

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traces of our civilization would you find most interesting? Like?

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What story would they tell?

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Speaker 2: Hmm, it's a great question. I think they would be

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really struck by how diverse human culture was, you know,

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the art, the music, the books we created. It would

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show how creative we were, how much we could express ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And they'd probably be fascinated by our technology too, right,

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all the amazing things we've done with science and engineering.

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Speaker 2: Oh definitely. But I think they'd also find signs of

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our struggles, our conflicts, the environmental problems we're dealing with.

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They'd see that our story, like all stories, is complicated.

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It's got good and bad parts.

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Speaker 1: It shows that we're not perfect, but we can lear

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learn and we can change.

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Speaker 2: And that's probably the most important lesson of all the

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Soilurian hypothesis reminds us that civilization is a process. It's

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constantly evolving, adapting, and we're still in the middle of

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that journey and we have the power to shape where

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it goes.

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Speaker 1: That's a message of both hope and responsibility, and I

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think it's a great place to end our deep dive today.

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Thanks for joining us on this amazing exploration of the

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Sorier Lurian hypothesis. We'll beome back next time to explore

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another mystery of the universe. But until then, keep asking questions,

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keep learning, and keep imagining all the possibilities