Speaker 1: With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 2: Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen
Speaker 2: the bride and broom? Sri?
Speaker 3: Sorry we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo
Speaker 3: when we lost track of time.
Speaker 1: No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up
Speaker 1: quicker than a guess registered Well.
Speaker 3: In that case, I pronounce you lucky thanks for free.
Speaker 1: At Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting. No
Speaker 1: purchase necessary boid. We're prohibited by lock EIGHTEAM plus terms
Speaker 1: and conditions APPLAG see website for details.
Speaker 4: It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.
Speaker 4: What do you do when you win?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: Are you at fist pumper, a wooo, a handclap or
Speaker 4: a high fiver? I kind of like the high five.
Speaker 4: But if you want to hone in on those winning moves,
Speaker 4: check out Chumbuck Casino At chumbacasino dot com choose some
Speaker 4: hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to
Speaker 4: redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly,
Speaker 4: plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait. Start having the
Speaker 4: most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com nope, We're
Speaker 4: not necessary dally revoid where everybody lost conditions et.
Speaker 3: Plus Judy was boring.
Speaker 1: Hello, then Judy discovered Chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 6: It's my little escape.
Speaker 1: Now Judy is the life of the party.
Speaker 3: Oh baby, Mama is bringing home the bacon.
Speaker 1: WHOA, Take it easy, Judy, Jump the Chumpa life is
Speaker 1: for everybody. So go to chumpacasino dot com and play
Speaker 1: over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play
Speaker 1: for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices.
Speaker 1: Jump chumpacasito dot com.
Speaker 5: NOP, just necessary fly.
Speaker 1: We're promitted by etem plus turns and condition to plue.
Speaker 2: What's every details?
Speaker 3: Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 3: We're family, Canoli's and spins mean everything.
Speaker 2: Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.
Speaker 3: Introducing the Godfather at Chumpacasino dot com. Test your luck
Speaker 3: in the shadowy world of the Godfather Slot.
Speaker 2: Someday I will call upon you to do a service
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 3: Play the Godfather now at chump A Casina.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Family.
Speaker 5: vdW group. Noper is necessary.
Speaker 2: If we were privateed by loss He Terms and Conditions
Speaker 2: eighteen plus.
Speaker 7: Maybe you are now listening to True Murder The most
Speaker 7: shocking killers in true crime History and the authors that
Speaker 7: have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK
Speaker 7: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 7: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 7: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. On February fifth, two thousand and seven, Charity
Speaker 5: Lee Bennett was working her shift at Buffalo Wild Wings
Speaker 5: in Abilene, Texas, when two police officers came to inform
Speaker 5: her that her four year old daughter Ella was dead
Speaker 5: and her thirteen year old son Paris had killed her.
Speaker 5: He had convinced the babysitter she should go home, and
Speaker 5: afterwards entered the room of his sister. She was beaten
Speaker 5: and strangled and stabbed seventeen times. On March twentieth, two
Speaker 5: thousand and eighteen, Film Rise released the chilling documentary The
Speaker 5: Film The Family I Had, which we recounts the tragic
Speaker 5: and unimaginable story of Charity Lee Bemmett and how a
Speaker 5: family struggles to move forward. Part true crime, part mystery
Speaker 5: Charity Lee, mother of both the victim and killer, relives
Speaker 5: her agony in her Journey of love ten years later
Speaker 5: in this featured documentary that also presents multiple and conflicting accounts,
Speaker 5: leaving the audience questioning where the ultimate truth and an
Speaker 5: accountability lie. A documentary of featuring this evening is The Family.
Speaker 5: I had an engrossing look at an unthinkable crime with
Speaker 5: my special guest producer, director, and filmmaker Katie Green. Welcome
Speaker 5: to the program, and thank you very much for green
Speaker 5: to this interview. Katie Green, Hi, thank you, it's good
Speaker 5: to be here. Thank you very much. Very powerful documentary.
Speaker 5: Let's get to you. Co produced this and directed this
Speaker 5: with a partner. Tell us about your partner and tell
Speaker 5: us about the genesis of this. How long ago did
Speaker 5: you plan you and your partner to do this? Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about the beginnings of the family
Speaker 5: I had.
Speaker 6: Sure, Well, yeah, I'm one half of a co directing team.
Speaker 6: The other half, Karlie Ruben, and I have been working
Speaker 6: together for almost I think ten years now, so we
Speaker 6: first directed together on our first documentary called The Deadmother's Club,
Speaker 6: which looked at women who'd lost their mothers when they
Speaker 6: were young and looking at the following them through various
Speaker 6: crossroads of their life and looking at how they were
Speaker 6: dealing with that. And it was towards the end of
Speaker 6: that I think, I think the film was complete when
Speaker 6: we became very interested in juvenile justice. And I think
Speaker 6: at the time there was a lot of stuff going
Speaker 6: on in the Supreme Court with the end of juvenile
Speaker 6: life without Parle, and there was lots of sort of
Speaker 6: lots of stuff that was very interested in grabbing our attention.
Speaker 6: And we we actually, through another partner, that sort of
Speaker 6: brother company of ours and that was doing another documentary
Speaker 6: on death penalty, came across Charityle. She'd written a blog
Speaker 6: on juvenile justice and you know, we really love the
Speaker 6: way that she wrote and really fascinated by her. And
Speaker 6: then as we learned more about the other foundation, we
Speaker 6: found out her personal story. So we immediately called her
Speaker 6: up and said, look, we're interested in this. You know,
Speaker 6: understand you have a son in prison, and you know,
Speaker 6: she just was really open to talking to us straight away,
Speaker 6: and yeah, it was we were always to say. For us,
Speaker 6: it was an interesting transition from looking at women who've
Speaker 6: lost their mothers to actually, you know, looking at a
Speaker 6: mother who'd lost their children, and it was kind of
Speaker 6: a reversal of grief. And we've always been very fascinated
Speaker 6: in families and family stories and how families overcome you know,
Speaker 6: trauma and tragedy and dysfunction, and we were just immediately
Speaker 6: really drawn to Charity, who at the time was i
Speaker 6: think in the early months of pregnancy with her son Phoenix,
Speaker 6: and so we thought, this is a really interesting time,
Speaker 6: she's in this interesting transitional stage as well. So we
Speaker 6: began filming with her. I think it was two thousand
Speaker 6: and thirteen, maybe yeh, twenty thirteen, and yeah, we only
Speaker 6: just finished up obviously last year, so it was a
Speaker 6: good few years in the making. And yeah, as we
Speaker 6: at first met Charity and spoke to her, and then
Speaker 6: as you know, we were speaking to her, we realized
Speaker 6: that there were so many other parts of this story.
Speaker 6: We were originally looking at trying to make her story
Speaker 6: one of several stories as a look at the sort
Speaker 6: of juvenile justice system as a whole. But as the
Speaker 6: sort of layers started to come away and we understood
Speaker 6: the depth of what was going on in this family,
Speaker 6: we thought, actually, this is a whole, separate, unique story
Speaker 6: that is kind of worthy of its own platform, and
Speaker 6: that's when we started to speak to Paris and eventually
Speaker 6: to Kyla as well, So the story sort of came
Speaker 6: together that way.
Speaker 5: In the introduction, I talk about the Paris stabbing his
Speaker 5: sister seventeen times and beating and strangling her, and you
Speaker 5: talk about your initial intent with this was to examine
Speaker 5: the juvenile justice system going into this. How much did
Speaker 5: you look at this in terms of his story and
Speaker 5: what the police had said, again, his culpability, his his guiltiness.
Speaker 5: How far did you look I mean, what you look
Speaker 5: at in terms of that story, and how confident were
Speaker 5: you that you could still have this aim to your
Speaker 5: documentary once you realized the factual information of this case.
Speaker 8: Welleah.
Speaker 6: I mean, obviously we came into it looking at, you know,
Speaker 6: examining juveniles who who were selling probably long sentences, and
Speaker 6: and Paris obviously stood out. It's a very unique type
Speaker 6: of store in the unique unique type of case. And
Speaker 6: our feeling was always that, you know, we've always felt
Speaker 6: that there was some reform needed in the juvenile justice arena,
Speaker 6: and we you know, of course, we appreciated that Paris
Speaker 6: was a was a it was going to be more
Speaker 6: more of a challenge for an audience to kind of
Speaker 6: get around because you're trying to sort of make it
Speaker 6: a plea for something that you know, people, it's a
Speaker 6: very it's a very complicated story in a very complicated case.
Speaker 6: But I think for that reason we were like, no,
Speaker 6: this is this is why a story like this should
Speaker 6: be examined with you know, with the through the prism
Speaker 6: of juvenile justice. You know, because everybody, every child, we believe,
Speaker 6: deserves the opportunity for the best possible care even if
Speaker 6: they do something wrong, even if they do something bad,
Speaker 6: and and that's the challenge of you know, society, and
Speaker 6: so that's for us, Like we we appreciated it with
Speaker 6: a more complicated angle, but we really felt that it
Speaker 6: was it wasn't something we wanted to shy away from
Speaker 6: because it wasn't going to be easy and it was going.
Speaker 8: To be hard for people to swallow.
Speaker 6: That was the reason why we thought, no, that for
Speaker 6: those reasons, that's why we need to really be you know,
Speaker 6: giving this a platform and opening it up and have
Speaker 6: a dialogue about this and talking about how this does
Speaker 6: fit into a conversation about give large justice reform what
Speaker 6: we do feel justice looks like in this kind of story,
Speaker 6: and also brings in lots of other really interesting sides
Speaker 6: of you know, what it's like for a family when
Speaker 6: you have a loved one a child who's incarcerated but
Speaker 6: apparently is trying to co parent with a system with
Speaker 6: an institution like a prism and complications of that, And
Speaker 6: of course the mental health as well is also a huge,
Speaker 6: a huge factor in the incarcerated population. You know, whether
Speaker 6: or not those needs are addressed and whether or not
Speaker 6: whether or not the justice system is really equipped to
Speaker 6: handle that. There's also another question that wants to bring up.
Speaker 6: So again, I mean, as we sort of were talking
Speaker 6: about before, I think this was a film that offered
Speaker 6: us an opportunity to ask a lot more questions than
Speaker 6: necessarily give answers. That that was what drew us to
Speaker 6: this story.
Speaker 5: Before we explain some of this story, let's introduce the
Speaker 5: characters that you had to work with and did an
Speaker 5: incredible job of just using those few characters. So please
Speaker 5: introduce the characters that you did interview for this and
Speaker 5: make up the bulk of this documentary.
Speaker 6: Sure, I mean, yes, that was a challenge here. We
Speaker 6: really sent her on. Specifically, one character who's Charity, who's
Speaker 6: the mother whose thirteen year old son murdered his four
Speaker 6: year old sister. And Charity was the first person that
Speaker 6: we started speaking to, and she's the kind of the
Speaker 6: one who we feel in the film is the person
Speaker 6: you're kind of following and kind of rooting for a
Speaker 6: little bit. Her son, Paris, who is now I think
Speaker 6: he's twenty three now, is in prison in Texas, and
Speaker 6: we have limited access to him obviously to his situation,
Speaker 6: but he does appear the film on occasion, but he's,
Speaker 6: you know, he very he very much is a character
Speaker 6: who who I think people used to He takes up
Speaker 6: a lot of space, even if he's not in it
Speaker 6: that much, if you know what I mean. And then Kyla,
Speaker 6: who is Charity's mother, Paris's grandmother, who Charity and her
Speaker 6: mother were estranged when we first met Charity, and as
Speaker 6: we sort of learned in the film, there's a whole
Speaker 6: other sort of backstory going on with her and and
Speaker 6: her and Charities relationship. So it's really really only have
Speaker 6: free characters. And we do meet Cayman, who is Charities
Speaker 6: that sister, Kyla's youngest daughter, and we do meet obviously Phoenix,
Speaker 6: who is Charity's little boy, because I said she was
Speaker 6: pregnant when we first met her and started filming with her.
Speaker 6: Ands and we follow you know, the first few years
Speaker 6: of his life. And yes, and a couple of charities
Speaker 6: friends who are in and out. But but really the
Speaker 6: film centers on those three characters, you know, the kind
Speaker 6: of three generations of this one family, the son, the mother,
Speaker 6: and the grandmother.
Speaker 5: You talked about the and you do feature in this
Speaker 5: documentary very very interestingly the fascinating character of the mother, Kyla,
Speaker 5: But you also alluded to the background, the very very
Speaker 5: interesting background, and then the questions that arise from that
Speaker 5: in terms of is there a genetic predisposition? So tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about some of the facts surrounding
Speaker 5: her mother. That very interesting at least to consider in
Speaker 5: factor into this story.
Speaker 6: Sure, well know how much I want to give away,
Speaker 6: but what we learn about Charity's mother, and as I
Speaker 6: say at the beginning of the film, you know, they
Speaker 6: were estranged and their relationship was very complicated. And we
Speaker 6: learn that Charity's father, Kyla's husband had also died mysteriously
Speaker 6: when Charity was a little girl. And Kyler, her mother
Speaker 6: was was a it was tried but acquitted for his murder.
Speaker 6: So there is this other kind of you know, interesting
Speaker 6: twist that was very unexpected, and we knew about this
Speaker 6: kind of early on, and we weren't sure how much
Speaker 6: we were going to try and bring into this, but
Speaker 6: we sort of felt that it was necessary to give
Speaker 6: a bit of background context.
Speaker 8: So, yeah, that's that is a sort.
Speaker 6: Of something that hangs over I suppose in the background.
Speaker 6: We don't go into that murder, and we don't, as
Speaker 6: I said, we don't provide any further answers or investigation
Speaker 6: into that, but it was something that we felt was,
Speaker 6: you know, an important part of the context of understanding
Speaker 6: the family and also the tensions between the mother and daughter.
Speaker 5: You also talk about, and you also, pardon me, you
Speaker 5: feature so many amazing home movie footage of Ella and
Speaker 5: interacting also with Paris and very affectionately interacting as they're
Speaker 5: much younger and she's a newborn or very very young
Speaker 5: and then you also have all of again, all of
Speaker 5: this home footage. It's very very powerful considering that I
Speaker 5: was dead and the situation with Paris obviously being her killer,
Speaker 5: how important was it because I think this documentary has
Speaker 5: a different look to use more of that footage and
Speaker 5: again make less big and distinctive statements with the footage
Speaker 5: itself that you consider for this documentary.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, with this story, you know, yeah,
Speaker 6: there is this one big character who we're all aware
Speaker 6: of but we never get to meet, and that is Ella,
Speaker 6: and we Yeah, that's one of the one of the
Speaker 6: things about working with a family. Of course, you do
Speaker 6: have access to this amazing archive in Charity is always
Speaker 6: incredibly open and generous with all the family archives, and yeah,
Speaker 6: it gave us an opportunity to I think I think
Speaker 6: for this it was such a shocking story and it's
Speaker 6: so sort of unrelatable. I think when people first hear it,
Speaker 6: they think, God, you know, I can't even imagine, And
Speaker 6: of course, you know, no one would want to would
Speaker 6: you want to be able to imagine that? But I
Speaker 6: think it was important for us to be able to
Speaker 6: use this archive to say, yeah, this is a really extraordinary,
Speaker 6: incredible and complicated, shocking story. But ultimately, this is a
Speaker 6: family and they do normal family things, and I think
Speaker 6: there's something really relatable about the archives, you know, just
Speaker 6: it sort of I think it was important for us
Speaker 6: to be able to make a connection for the audience
Speaker 6: with this family and show that, you know, before this
Speaker 6: tragedy and trauma, you know, this was just a sort
Speaker 6: of normal family in so many ways, as much as
Speaker 6: any family as normal. So yeah, it was it was
Speaker 6: one way of kind of doing that. And also I
Speaker 6: think because Paris is someone who we have limited access
Speaker 6: to and obviously is someone who you know, I think
Speaker 6: of course people come to him with their ideas, their
Speaker 6: preconceptions of who he is and what he's like, and
Speaker 6: it was important for us to try and show that,
Speaker 6: you know, he was someone before this as well. And
Speaker 6: again like try and and try and make him in
Speaker 6: some way a sort of relatable character as well, because
Speaker 6: I think it was I wanted to share the truth
Speaker 6: of everybody, and I think to try and show the truth,
Speaker 6: you have to sort of have an understanding of someone before, during,
Speaker 6: and after, and that was our way of trying to
Speaker 6: do that.
Speaker 5: In this documentary, you could have had Charity Lee have
Speaker 5: a completely different response to the killer of her daughter,
Speaker 5: that being her son. And again there are things that
Speaker 5: she says later about this very very complex emotional response
Speaker 5: to her son that's incarcerated, So you do show footage
Speaker 5: of them visiting, and again this trying to keep her
Speaker 5: family together and move forward with her family. And that's very,
Speaker 5: very fascinating. But what is her opinion? What is her
Speaker 5: feeling about her son and considering the murder of her daughter,
Speaker 5: those are complex feelings, but what is her sense of
Speaker 5: feelings towards her son now that he's locked up?
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, firstly, I mean I don't feel like it,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't. I can't answer that. Any charity
Speaker 6: can answer that. But you know, during the process of
Speaker 6: filming her, of course, that was something that we've felt
Speaker 6: all the time. You know, we're conscious of she's constantly
Speaker 6: battling with you know, she loves this is her child,
Speaker 6: and she loves him, and she you know, her mother
Speaker 6: has unconditional love for her children and and you know
Speaker 6: the mother, she's no different, and so she's she struggles
Speaker 6: with that. But she also, you know, obviously it's horrified
Speaker 6: by what he did and wants him to be helped.
Speaker 6: And I think that was I think that's a hard
Speaker 6: it's a very hard question for me to answer. Obviously,
Speaker 6: is not being charity, But I think that was kind
Speaker 6: of at the heart of what why we found this
Speaker 6: story so fascinating on what we try to sort of
Speaker 6: show throughout the film is that she's constantly bad sling
Speaker 6: with that. And I think there were times when you know,
Speaker 6: we would we would be speaking to her about Paris,
Speaker 6: and you could tell that she had, you know, just
Speaker 6: this love that she you know, she would miss him
Speaker 6: and she'd be wanting to miss she hadn't seen him
Speaker 6: in a while, and she'd want to see him, and
Speaker 6: she'd still her baby. And then she'd have times when
Speaker 6: she's really angry with him, and then she'd have times
Speaker 6: when she really needed distance from him. And I think,
Speaker 6: I think she feels all those things. And I think
Speaker 6: that's why this was a really interesting sorry for us
Speaker 6: to follow, because I think it showed all the all
Speaker 6: the wide spectrum of human emotions and sort of nuanced
Speaker 6: feelings that someone would have in that situation. It's not
Speaker 6: black and white, it's it's a big gray area. And yeah,
Speaker 6: that's that's the truth. I think of where where things
Speaker 6: are for her, it's somewhere somewhere along that at any
Speaker 6: different time, and it changes all the time.
Speaker 5: What did Charity want and her mother Kylo want in
Speaker 5: terms of a result, in terms of court. He said,
Speaker 5: the defense lawyer pled him not guilty, But what did
Speaker 5: they want for him? Where did they want to see
Speaker 5: him go and be dealt with?
Speaker 6: How sure? I mean yeah, I mean I really That
Speaker 6: was also a line that for me was really powerful
Speaker 6: when we were looking at the juvenile justice issue, because
Speaker 6: I think Charity says this great line about the defense
Speaker 6: attorney just wanted him to be not guilty, prosecution just
Speaker 6: wants him to be guilty. And I think she said
Speaker 6: someone should be giving it down about what happens to
Speaker 6: this kid. And obviously, as the parent, she cares, but
Speaker 6: she felt there should be another kind of also was
Speaker 6: a victim. It was difficult for her to take on
Speaker 6: that role as well. I mean, I think they would
Speaker 6: have liked for him there to be more more mental
Speaker 6: health support, more intervention to try and figure out what
Speaker 6: exactly had gone on and how best help Paris well,
Speaker 6: you know, whilst also recognizing that he needed to be
Speaker 6: kept away from from Charity and obviously punished for what
Speaker 6: he did to Ella. So that's sort of a you know,
Speaker 6: a much bigger question that I guess, I guess for
Speaker 6: them they have one answer, But what should society do
Speaker 6: with with a case like this? What is the right
Speaker 6: thing to do? And I think there has to be
Speaker 6: a more holistic approach to it, not just kind of
Speaker 6: looking at Okay, you're either innocent or you're guilty, and
Speaker 6: if you're guilty, then you get this, and if you're innocent,
Speaker 6: then you get there. In reality, you know, we're all complicated,
Speaker 6: and there's especially with kids, I mean, there's this huge
Speaker 6: gray area in the middle of how much can we help,
Speaker 6: what kind of help and for how long? So I
Speaker 6: think they would have liked more mental health intervention.
Speaker 5: The idea too that she was looking for answers, Charity
Speaker 5: was looking for answers and then she was given a
Speaker 5: diagnosis and so and very very interesting part of this
Speaker 5: documentary is the statement she says about when she reaches
Speaker 5: out to the profilers and the FBI. The again the
Speaker 5: famous part beats the doctor. But what is the diagnosis?
Speaker 5: And then what does Charity feel about that diagnosis? And
Speaker 5: as filmmaker, what does that have to do in your
Speaker 5: mind with mental illness or the issue or the controversy
Speaker 5: or the question of mental illness.
Speaker 8: In this documentary, are you referring to the I think
Speaker 8: it was one of the part deep doctors that she
Speaker 8: describes a tot her that she should she should have
Speaker 8: run and hide.
Speaker 6: And I think that, you know what a shocking and
Speaker 6: terrifying diagnosis to get obviously about your child, but also
Speaker 6: you know what an unrealistic response. I mean, very few
Speaker 6: mothers would just run and hide from their children. So
Speaker 6: I think I think, you know, in a way, maybe
Speaker 6: that's it's it's also opening up some sort of flaws
Speaker 6: with them, that system of like how how we diagnose
Speaker 6: someone if we if someone gets this diagnosis, do we
Speaker 6: just put them over here and say, God, I got
Speaker 6: to get away from as far away from you as
Speaker 6: possible but you or is there a way to actually
Speaker 6: work with people to try and you know, create some
Speaker 6: sort of understanding, better understanding and also hopefully improve on
Speaker 6: those complicated relationships with family as well. I mean, we're
Speaker 6: not doctors, and I wouldn't claim to be able to
Speaker 6: to say what should happen or what could have happened
Speaker 6: or anything like that. I think, if anything, it maybe
Speaker 6: just opens up more questions about complicated mental health issues,
Speaker 6: personality disorders and the kind of taboo of that and
Speaker 6: being able to talk about it more and have a
Speaker 6: better understanding and figure out more realistic ways and healthier
Speaker 6: ways for us to deal with people who have to
Speaker 6: do suffer from these issues.
Speaker 5: Well, why I mentioned this is because the diagnosis that
Speaker 5: you got through the psychopathy checklist was that he was
Speaker 5: a social path or a psychopath social path. And with that,
Speaker 5: it's with part deeds saying you'd better go take your
Speaker 5: money and run. It seemed to be to say pretty
Speaker 5: clearly that there is no cure for a psychopath. But
Speaker 5: then we have the issue of you say, mental illness,
Speaker 5: but also how responsible is someone at thirteen years of
Speaker 5: age when they're considered by many countries and judicial systems
Speaker 5: as a as a child?
Speaker 6: Absolutely? Yeah, I mean this is one of the very
Speaker 6: very sort of interesting and you know, ultimately the kind
Speaker 6: of fundamental question that we're asking, no matter what kind
Speaker 6: of evidence or no matter what you could stack on Harris,
Speaker 6: sort of course he is responsible. Can he be held
Speaker 6: fully accountable? Can any child at thirteen be held fully accountable?
Speaker 6: Even if he is you know, I don't want to
Speaker 6: put labels on him, but even if you know he
Speaker 6: does suffer from from mental health problems. You know, that's
Speaker 6: not his fault either, So how it's a very big
Speaker 6: complicated question. I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to answer that.
Speaker 6: I'm afraid I think it's very I think I think
Speaker 6: the label thing is something that in a way kind
Speaker 6: of makes people okay. So that that and we can
Speaker 6: you know, that's something that's horrible and we don't understand
Speaker 6: that anything. Just put it over there, and I don't
Speaker 6: know if it brings us any closer to really making
Speaker 6: us feel any best roposity that because give us first
Speaker 6: in year ork for what she is and you know,
Speaker 6: without help, and what good does that do either.
Speaker 5: You talk about the unconditional love that Charity Lee has
Speaker 5: decided to, you know, to deal with her son with
Speaker 5: with this unconditional love rather than any other way of
Speaker 5: dealing this with this, but she is still conflicted. You
Speaker 5: talk about the new addition to her family, this Phoenix,
Speaker 5: and then again her conflicted emotions regarding visiting her son
Speaker 5: she had received this diagnosis, so that she is again
Speaker 5: conflicted with her thoughts about the safety of her child.
Speaker 5: And we talk about what she does in terms of
Speaker 5: something cathartic for her and you and you feature this
Speaker 5: as well, that the advocacy that she is doing to
Speaker 5: try to deal with this issue in her life.
Speaker 6: The Ella Foundation. Yeah, is that what we're referring to. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean I think she Yeah, I think she Charity
Speaker 6: is someone who really wanted to try and see some
Speaker 6: good to come from from this awful tragedy. And yeah,
Speaker 6: she set up the Allow Foundation, which is a nonprofit
Speaker 6: that supports families that are going through similar situations and
Speaker 6: provides afflicacy and really tries to mediate between victor and offenders,
Speaker 6: which is obviously the position that Charity has. And I mean,
Speaker 6: I think I think she's very honest about the fact
Speaker 6: that as both a sort of victim and the person
Speaker 6: who has who unconditionally loves the perpetrator of this crime,
Speaker 6: you know, she is conflicted, and she goes back and forth,
Speaker 6: and she's she has times when she has a lot
Speaker 6: of compassion I think in some ways for uh, for Paris,
Speaker 6: you know, people in prison in general. And she's really
Speaker 6: got into I think she became very political through this,
Speaker 6: and she did a lot of anti death penalty stuff
Speaker 6: and I think she's she's a really wonderful advocate for
Speaker 6: justice reform. But at the same time, of course, you know,
Speaker 6: does understand the complexity of also being a victim and
Speaker 6: being afraid. I think in that way, she's a really
Speaker 6: amazing person to be talking on both and talking on
Speaker 6: these issues because she sort of understands both. As a
Speaker 6: human being, she seems to have compassion, but as you know,
Speaker 6: a mother, she's also she knows what it's like to
Speaker 6: lose someone.
Speaker 5: You worked with her extensively, obviously she's featured in this.
Speaker 5: It's remarkable her candidness because as if you talk about
Speaker 5: in this documentary that in the place that they were
Speaker 5: in Abilene, Texas a very religious place, you say, with
Speaker 5: far more churches than anywhere else, that people weren't so
Speaker 5: shy giving their opinions. Were they after this in that community?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's something that I think you can
Speaker 6: relate to. You know, if you're in a small town
Speaker 6: and something terrible happens to you, how many people are
Speaker 6: able to offer love and support and compassion, and you
Speaker 6: know how many people judge? And yes, of course that's
Speaker 6: something that she went through, and she's incredibly honest, and
Speaker 6: I think and she sort of goes through her life
Speaker 6: I think wearing her heart and her.
Speaker 8: Sleeves, I mean, you know.
Speaker 6: Her tattoos, which are all very visible, which are all
Speaker 6: the story of you know, telling telling another story in itself.
Speaker 6: I think she she always says that she believes that
Speaker 6: secrets make you sick, and through telling your story into
Speaker 6: sort of the sort of therapy of telling you, telling
Speaker 6: your story can heal you. And I think she, I
Speaker 6: think she really believes that, And I think I really
Speaker 6: we really owe her her candidness and her honesty and
Speaker 6: her openness to I think she she really believes that
Speaker 6: there is a greater understanding to be to be gotten
Speaker 6: through through telling her story, and and the people hear
Speaker 6: her story and relate to it or not relate to it.
Speaker 6: You know, maybe some people hear it and you can't
Speaker 6: relate to it at all. Many of us, you know,
Speaker 6: of course can't. So I think I think that's a
Speaker 6: It was a really it was really great that she
Speaker 6: that she had that opinion, and for us it was
Speaker 6: as filmmakers be working with someone who's who wants to
Speaker 6: get their story out there and has their own kind
Speaker 6: of belief about it being healing, that was really really powerful.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, let's use this as an opportunity Katie, just to
Speaker 5: stop for a second to talk about our sponsor, which
Speaker 5: is e Harmony. I'm married, so I can't tell you
Speaker 5: about my personal experience with the Harmony, but our good
Speaker 5: friend Rachel just signed up at our urging and once
Speaker 5: she visited the harmony website, she was definitely interested. She
Speaker 5: created a profile, chose some really good photos of herself,
Speaker 5: but she started with the relationlationship questionnaire, which seemed She
Speaker 5: thought it seemed like a little bit of work, but
Speaker 5: she could easily see its importance in helping her find
Speaker 5: the kind of person she was really looking for and
Speaker 5: really is looking for. It's only been a few weeks,
Speaker 5: but she's enjoying communicating with those few gentlemen that responded
Speaker 5: to her profile. And she said it was easy and
Speaker 5: it's well worth the effort. So e Harmony takes steps
Speaker 5: that other dating sites don't in order to find you
Speaker 5: a more compatible match. E Harmony is built to help
Speaker 5: you find lasting, meaningful relationships, not a shallow hookup site.
Speaker 5: Right now, my listeners can get a free month with
Speaker 5: e harmony when they sign up for a three month subscription.
Speaker 5: Enter my code Murder at checkout. Stop waiting and start
Speaker 5: your journey to a satisfying relationship. It can be fun
Speaker 5: to play around with online dating apps, but when you're
Speaker 5: ready to fall in love with someone and have a
Speaker 5: meaningful relationship, there's one app that's built to bring you
Speaker 5: real love, e Harmony. Come see how e harmony can
Speaker 5: change your life. Go to eHarmony dot com and get started.
Speaker 5: Enter my code murder at checkout. That's eHarmony dot com.
Speaker 5: Enter my code murder at checkout. You talked about the
Speaker 5: incredible cooperation that Charity Lee exhibited in this documentary for
Speaker 5: your ability to be able to make this powerful documentary,
Speaker 5: but also that she felt it was important for this
Speaker 5: story to be told and just like her advocacy work,
Speaker 5: cathartic and something that she needs to do to help
Speaker 5: other people to see some purpose of not a purpose,
Speaker 5: but some meaning to Ella's death. How long is this
Speaker 5: documentary span in terms of time from the time you
Speaker 5: How long does it cover in terms of time?
Speaker 6: Sure, as we said, we met Charity when she was
Speaker 6: I think about five or six months pregnant with Phoenix,
Speaker 6: So that's always useful to always kind of tell from that.
Speaker 6: But so we've started filming in twenty thirteen and We've
Speaker 6: finished filming in twenty beginning of twenty seventeen, and so yeah,
Speaker 6: that's four years. And we I mean, obviously we were filming,
Speaker 6: you know, on and off, sometimes more than others, and
Speaker 6: they go through various various moves and changes throughout that time.
Speaker 6: But yeah, four years, which seems to be on average
Speaker 6: how long we tend to spend on a future documentary.
Speaker 5: Right, we talked about we really didn't talk about his sentence,
Speaker 5: but he received a sentence where he is eligible for
Speaker 5: parole at the age of twenty thirty three years of age,
Speaker 5: so twenty years before his first parole eligibility. He also
Speaker 5: talked about his incredible IQ of one hundred and forty one,
Speaker 5: so he's always a very very bright guy. You do offer, again,
Speaker 5: not so conclusionary things in this documentary, so it's up
Speaker 5: to the viewer to sort of determine and again more
Speaker 5: questions and answers. It certain certainly seems. But you talk
Speaker 5: about you feature Kayla, and you figure and you feature
Speaker 5: Charity too talking about Paris. Is any indication that there
Speaker 5: was something wrong with Paris before this fatal incident? Yeah, again,
Speaker 5: you don't answer any You don't there aren't big conclusions,
Speaker 5: but tell us a little bit about that investigation and
Speaker 5: what you offer in this documentary.
Speaker 6: Sure, well, I think you know, the first thing that
Speaker 6: people ask and still, you know, when we talk about
Speaker 6: the story, when we say, oh, this is this film
Speaker 6: about a mother who's overcoming her person year son murdering
Speaker 6: his four year old sister, of course the first question
Speaker 6: people asked is why why did he do it? And
Speaker 6: as you know, of course that was the first thing
Speaker 6: that we asked. And I think it was really important
Speaker 6: we have one one point in the film when you know,
Speaker 6: we actually just got charities which she was just saying,
Speaker 6: these are the things that people ask me all the time,
Speaker 6: because I think it's kind of when everybody's lips straight away, like,
Speaker 6: you know, why why did he do it? And I
Speaker 6: think it became pretty clear after our first interview with
Speaker 6: her that that was not going to be an answer.
Speaker 6: You know, we weren't going to get a straightforward answer.
Speaker 6: Of course, if if there was a clear answer as
Speaker 6: to why he did it, or if they're in some
Speaker 6: very clear indication that he was going to do it,
Speaker 6: you know, it's just not it's just not you know,
Speaker 6: the reality of this and so we I mean we
Speaker 6: sort of obviously we were interested in what Paris was
Speaker 6: like before this happens, and you sort of do rack
Speaker 6: your brain because you think, gosh, now, how could how
Speaker 6: could you not have seen that this, that someone could
Speaker 6: be capable of this, because we like to think that
Speaker 6: that would be something it's so awful that it would
Speaker 6: be really glaringly obvious, you know, and you know, of course,
Speaker 6: and I of course for Charity, of course, she didn't
Speaker 6: have any indication or any cleure idea that he would
Speaker 6: be capable of this. So we're sort of left, you know,
Speaker 6: with following her who who's also asking herself all these
Speaker 6: questions as well. And I think I think it was
Speaker 6: important for us to try and show that there had
Speaker 6: been some investigation into that, to try to understand it,
Speaker 6: to try and understand why. But you know, again, I
Speaker 6: think if he keeps saying this is not a film
Speaker 6: that was going to be able to offer a nice
Speaker 6: clean okay, put that away and file that under why
Speaker 6: and and move on, I think this is a very
Speaker 6: nuanced story. And you know, we ask Paris, you know why,
Speaker 6: and I don't think he's able to really know yet either.
Speaker 6: And hopefully that's something he might be able to at
Speaker 6: some point in his life be able to understand better.
Speaker 6: But I mean, as he actually says, prison is not
Speaker 6: really a place that offers you much opportunity to sort
Speaker 6: of sit around and ask yourself why, because it's actually
Speaker 6: a place that, for him, certainly the way that he
Speaker 6: has described to us, was just somewhere that you're trying
Speaker 6: to survive and you can't really afford to let yourself
Speaker 6: become too vulnerable by getting too deep in your thoughts.
Speaker 6: So yeah, there was you know, there was some investigation,
Speaker 6: but as we learned pretty early, there was no easy answers.
Speaker 6: In the story, you.
Speaker 5: Talk about mental illness and no easy answers, but you
Speaker 5: also talk about that Charity says that when she was
Speaker 5: pregnant with Ella that Paris wasn't happy and she was concerned,
Speaker 5: and you don't. Again, it's not a full investigation of
Speaker 5: that statement, but that is a very dramatic or interesting
Speaker 5: or powerful statement on its own in terms of reasoning.
Speaker 5: And you also show that at Charity lost her father
Speaker 5: at five years old. There's no father in Paris's life,
Speaker 5: or at least not as a as a raw model
Speaker 5: or a functioning father figure in his life. Is this
Speaker 5: lack of attention. Is this an important issue, the center
Speaker 5: being the center of attention for his mother's affection. Is
Speaker 5: this isn't an issue that's brought up in this documentary.
Speaker 6: Well yeah, I mean, firstly, I think I would say, like, yeah,
Speaker 6: Charity does say that when she was pregnant, it's just
Speaker 6: that Paris wasn't happy about that. But you know, I
Speaker 6: think I think a lot of kids who have that
Speaker 6: time have their mothers to themselves. You know, I think
Speaker 6: he was eight eight or something by the time Ala
Speaker 6: was born. You know, you have all that time to yourself,
Speaker 6: and I think I think it's pretty normal, from what
Speaker 6: I've want to understand, for you know, the oldest child
Speaker 6: to feel a little bit Yeah, I guess threatened is
Speaker 6: a strong word, but you know, to feel a bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: I guess when there's a new baby on the way,
Speaker 6: because you're still like, oh wait, you know, I'm not
Speaker 6: the center anymore. That's that's very normal. And I don't
Speaker 6: think it would be fair to say, well, you know
Speaker 6: that that was a sign, because I think that any
Speaker 6: you know, any mother, I think what she actually does
Speaker 6: go on to say is you know, as soon as
Speaker 6: soon as she was born and Paris met her, she
Speaker 6: can fell in love with her, and he was a
Speaker 6: wonderful brother. So you know, I think, yeah, you can
Speaker 6: sort of find these little signs along the way. Yeah,
Speaker 6: he didn't have a sort of strong father's figure around.
Speaker 6: Lots of children don't, and I don't think that. I think, yeah,
Speaker 6: of course there are these little things and maybe if
Speaker 6: you put them all together and you sort of build
Speaker 6: a case, yeah, of course, they all may play their
Speaker 6: little roles. But I think, you know, lots of children
Speaker 6: may feel a bit you know, neglected when a new
Speaker 6: baby comes along. Lots of kids grow up without positive
Speaker 6: uh father figure, with parental figures in their in their lives,
Speaker 6: and not all of them would commit a crime like this,
Speaker 6: So I think I think it could be a bit dangerous.
Speaker 6: I think that's kind of why we wanted to steer
Speaker 6: away from that. We felt like, you know, I'm not
Speaker 6: really sure if this is it's relevant to a certain
Speaker 6: extense of understanding this particular story, but I don't know
Speaker 6: if it really you know, says anything. Either way.
Speaker 5: You profile and feature the relationship between Charity and her mother, Kyla,
Speaker 5: and they are not on the same page in terms
Speaker 5: of very much in this documentary are they they don't
Speaker 5: agree on much.
Speaker 6: No, I mean they have a very complicated relationship. We
Speaker 6: learned that, you know, even from I think Charity's teenage years,
Speaker 6: they started to they sort of sort of butt heads
Speaker 6: a little bit and have a complicated relationship, and I think,
Speaker 6: you know, I think their relationship continued to be to
Speaker 6: be complicated though they have they are in a much
Speaker 6: better place now own All families have complicated relationships. A
Speaker 6: very strong, intelligent, strong willed women as well, like sort
Speaker 6: of matriarchs of their of their own domains, and I
Speaker 6: think that could also bring about tension. But you know,
Speaker 6: their relationship, as you learn in the film, is has
Speaker 6: got you know, very difficult and complicated at times. But
Speaker 6: also they seem to have a they also have time
Speaker 6: for them. You know, we were with them where they've
Speaker 6: really got along and they seem to have a very
Speaker 6: similar sense of humors, incredibly bright. Everyone in this family
Speaker 6: is incredibly intelligent and great appreciation for history and literature
Speaker 6: and make these sort of very wonderful, interesting references that
Speaker 6: you know, kind of beyond Carlie and myself at the time,
Speaker 6: they also have a very strong bond.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when Paris speaks about the motivation for this, there's
Speaker 5: different snippets in this that he talks about the day itself.
Speaker 5: He talks about his feelings that day. It seems genuine,
Speaker 5: it doesn't seem rehearsed, it seems honest, and he does
Speaker 5: say some things later about it seems that this could
Speaker 5: have been in response to his mother neglecting him, or
Speaker 5: it's some in terms of punishment. What is his official
Speaker 5: position on responsibility with this? How does he talk about
Speaker 5: his responsibility in this, and how does he in general?
Speaker 5: What does he how does he come across Paris?
Speaker 6: You know, much like his mother was kind of you know,
Speaker 6: he was open, polite, you know, very clear in interviews
Speaker 6: he was you know, it was it was it was
Speaker 6: always very interesting and insightful to meet with him and
Speaker 6: have interviews with him. I mean, I think Paris actually
Speaker 6: is quite clear that he doesn't blame any one thing.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think he sort of says, yeah, it
Speaker 6: wasn't I felt neglected by this, and yeah, I was
Speaker 6: annoyed by that. And he says that on the day
Speaker 6: he felt all day that he was angry that day
Speaker 6: and he wanted to hurt somebody, But he also says
Speaker 6: he was a coward and that you know, anything could
Speaker 6: have stopped him at any moment, and admits that what
Speaker 6: he did was cowardly. So he does take responsibility. I
Speaker 6: think he's I think, as I said, I'm not sure
Speaker 6: if he's had the opportunity yet to or at least
Speaker 6: to articulate it to us yet to really deeply understand
Speaker 6: the sort of psychological reasons why he did what he did,
Speaker 6: but he can he certainly takes responsibility that and appreciate
Speaker 6: that it's a horrific thing to do.
Speaker 5: You feature in this documentary to the artwork of Paris
Speaker 5: Lee Bennett. Why is that and what does that constitute?
Speaker 5: What are some of the examples that people will see?
Speaker 5: What is the subject matter of these this artwork?
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think I mean, as I've said before,
Speaker 6: I think our limited access to Paris, but you know,
Speaker 6: obviously his large part that he plays in this film.
Speaker 6: But you know, when you be into someone in prison,
Speaker 6: it's a very rigid, contrived sort of situation. You don't
Speaker 6: get a lot of freedom to kind of see what
Speaker 6: someone's really like because they're just sitting there behind glass.
Speaker 6: I was looking the same, and we knew there was
Speaker 6: more Paris, And obviously his mother kept all this, all
Speaker 6: his art books and sketchbooks and letters, all this artwork
Speaker 6: over the years, and he'd always been a very good
Speaker 6: artist and very interesting intricate drawings, and so we thought
Speaker 6: that it would serve a nice purpose to pertually again,
Speaker 6: you know, kind of what I was saying before about
Speaker 6: using the archives to make the characters but more relatable.
Speaker 6: And we wanted to show that there was a time
Speaker 6: when he was a kid who drew you know, octopuses
Speaker 6: and you know, you know, wild animals and did keep
Speaker 6: you know, family pictures and that kind of thing. And
Speaker 6: I guess we see as he gets older, his his
Speaker 6: art becomes a bit more sinister. But it was a
Speaker 6: way of kind of getting a bit more insight into
Speaker 6: him and kind of showing how nuanced he is. And
Speaker 6: I think art reveals immense talent, I think as an artist,
Speaker 6: but also there's a lot more going on, you know,
Speaker 6: there's a lot of thought behind everything. I think it
Speaker 6: was just a way that we could try and like
Speaker 6: weave in a bit more of him throughout the film,
Speaker 6: so it didn't kind of feel so so black and
Speaker 6: white because nothing about this story or the family of
Speaker 6: black and white. Sorry, sorry, as I was just going
Speaker 6: to say, so, when we got the access, we thought
Speaker 6: we could try and select some of them to try
Speaker 6: and do little montages to kind of show a passing
Speaker 6: of time as well and kind of evolving as those
Speaker 6: m h.
Speaker 5: You talk about him being in when I talk about
Speaker 5: you show him in the Ferguson unit in a correctional
Speaker 5: center not too far away from where Charity is and
Speaker 5: she looks and you have it in the film that
Speaker 5: she looks up this notorious Ferguson unit and is concerned,
Speaker 5: what did you find out? Or no, you didn't go
Speaker 5: behind the walls or anything, but what do you know
Speaker 5: of this Ferguson unit in this place where he is?
Speaker 5: This man would entered at thirteen years of age, but
Speaker 5: you know of this place? What do you know of
Speaker 5: this correctional.
Speaker 6: Center the prison itself? Well, that was so he was
Speaker 6: moved from a juvenile facility, which is I think further
Speaker 6: towards Galveston in Texas, and after the age of eighteen,
Speaker 6: he was moved from there to an out of prison
Speaker 6: and it happened to be Yeah, at that time that
Speaker 6: you see Charity looking up the prison. I mean, they
Speaker 6: didn't give any warning. They knew at some point they
Speaker 6: were going to move him to another facility, but they
Speaker 6: didn't tell you where or when or anything like that.
Speaker 6: So that was, you know, a real shock. I mean,
Speaker 6: I think all prisons are dark places and places that
Speaker 6: you know, awful things go on. And I don't know
Speaker 6: any more about Ferguson than than any other facilities in
Speaker 6: the area. I mean, there's a large number of prisons
Speaker 6: in that area. It's about an hour or so from Houston,
Speaker 6: and I yeah, I think I think all prisons are
Speaker 6: pretty dark places, and I think Ferguson Unit is no different.
Speaker 5: You talk about filming and and Charity is in the
Speaker 5: process of being pregnant and then finally giving birth to
Speaker 5: a son named Phoenix, and then you have a very
Speaker 5: powerful conversation with Paris in prison, with Charity and with
Speaker 5: Phoenix sitting there as well. What is Paris planning to
Speaker 5: do and and is doing in prison in terms of
Speaker 5: communicating with his stepbrother someday.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I think as you as you see,
Speaker 6: I mean it's something that Charity sort of struggles with.
Speaker 6: Of course, you know, they are related, and she you know,
Speaker 6: that supports them having contacts. But I think at this point,
Speaker 6: you know, Phoenix still so young, so I think it's
Speaker 6: still going to be limited for some time. How much
Speaker 6: they communicate with each other, I think I think I
Speaker 6: think Paris does send him letters and little, you know,
Speaker 6: books for present. I think one time they were reading
Speaker 6: The Hobbit. I think that was a birthday present that
Speaker 6: Paris had sent his Phoenix. So I mean, I think
Speaker 6: it's a I think time will tell oviously, that's going
Speaker 6: to be a very complicated conversation for Charity to have
Speaker 6: with Phoenix at some point. But I think at this stage,
Speaker 6: you know, he's he's still so young, and he may
Speaker 6: understand that there's a brother on the end of a
Speaker 6: phone somewhere, but I'm not sure how much at this
Speaker 6: point he really understands what that means. And I think
Speaker 6: that time will tell how that relationship unravels.
Speaker 5: The footage in this documentary shows Charity talking again I'm
Speaker 5: not to Paris about her concerns, but when she does
Speaker 5: speak of him, and when she does speak to him,
Speaker 5: it seems like it really does seem like a very loving,
Speaker 5: concerned mother and she's just dealing with the issues of
Speaker 5: her son in prison, doesn't it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely, I think that. I think that was the
Speaker 6: one of the things that's you know, the most admirable
Speaker 6: or maybe the most kind of you know, normal to
Speaker 6: have expected in some ways about charity. This is still
Speaker 6: this is still her kid, and she wants to make
Speaker 6: sure he's all right and he's healthy and he's got
Speaker 6: everything he needs. And yeah, I think I think one
Speaker 6: of the things that this film maybe tries to do,
Speaker 6: or certainly something we talked about when we were making it,
Speaker 6: is the idea that we certainly something we talked about
Speaker 6: when we are thinking about this intended juvenile justice is
Speaker 6: we thought, you know, everyone should be to be seen
Speaker 6: as better than their worst act, you know, not not
Speaker 6: to be defined by this one tragic moment. And I
Speaker 6: think in a family that's gone through this type of tragedy,
Speaker 6: I think it's very I think you can get stuck,
Speaker 6: you know, and I think for people hearing it, they
Speaker 6: can kind of keep you stuck in this moment of
Speaker 6: tragedy and trauma, and that can be the defining thing
Speaker 6: that or the moment that kind of defines everything else.
Speaker 6: And I think that what we learned through making this
Speaker 6: film is that it's not really like that, you know,
Speaker 6: you sort of at some point. Also, yes, that may
Speaker 6: changed everything, That might have been the final moment that
Speaker 6: changed things. That there are many many different ways that
Speaker 6: we relate to each other. And I don't think that
Speaker 6: Charity in Paris's relationship is only defined by by what
Speaker 6: he did. I'm not saying that's not complicated, but I
Speaker 6: think that I think there are many different ways, many
Speaker 6: diferent ways that a relationship is define And I think
Speaker 6: for them, ultimately them mother and son.
Speaker 5: Given that she is this unconditional love and she's supporting him.
Speaker 5: But for everyone else again, I again, it seems like
Speaker 5: it can't be anybody's more their business than charity. But
Speaker 5: what would you what would you think? I mean, again,
Speaker 5: you're not saying this in the film, but I'm not
Speaker 5: asking you personally. What would you think society or the
Speaker 5: judicial system should have done with Paris or should do
Speaker 5: with Paris? What is the alternative to what was done?
Speaker 5: What do you think should have been done?
Speaker 6: I think Paris for someone who commits a crime like that,
Speaker 6: I mean, I think they need help. I don't know
Speaker 6: how I don't know what putting someone in prison for
Speaker 6: forty years is going to do. I don't know.
Speaker 8: I've really struggled to believe that.
Speaker 6: It's going to make here many any sort of more
Speaker 6: likely to be rehability, rehabilitated and redeemed, or make society
Speaker 6: any more safe. And I think, you know, prisons are
Speaker 6: really there to keep people safe and to rehabilitate people,
Speaker 6: and to punish people. I mean, there are it is
Speaker 6: there for punishment as well, but there are these two
Speaker 6: other factors to keep people safe and to have some
Speaker 6: sort of process of rehabilitation for people who've done you've
Speaker 6: committed crimes. And I think somewhere along the way, I
Speaker 6: feel anyway that just the system's lost its way, and
Speaker 6: it's become so much about punishment and not really about
Speaker 6: these other two elements. And you would think that after
Speaker 6: forty years, you know, it's a really huge chunk of
Speaker 6: someone's life to not be able to really have necessarily
Speaker 6: keep people more safe or you or to offer a
Speaker 6: real kind of chance of rehabilitation. I think that's I
Speaker 6: think you're asked some questions about that system.
Speaker 5: Were you opposed to a prison sentence versus a mental
Speaker 5: institution or were you more so, I guess concerned and
Speaker 5: disturbed by the lengthy sentence itself given to a thirteen
Speaker 5: year old child.
Speaker 6: I think both. I think that I don't I'm not
Speaker 6: familiar enough with the sort of psychiatric abilities or the
Speaker 6: kind of other possible help that would have been available to.
Speaker 8: Know what would what would have been the right fit.
Speaker 6: But I think perhaps a more holistic conversation about what
Speaker 6: kind of help and also, yes, the length of time,
Speaker 6: I mean, I think ten years, twenty years, you know,
Speaker 6: forty years? Does it? At what point does it really
Speaker 6: make any difference? You know, you spend ten years in prison,
Speaker 6: are you going to be any more likely to be
Speaker 6: redeemed or rehabilitated?
Speaker 8: I don't know.
Speaker 6: If you don't get the right help, you know, if
Speaker 6: you don't kind of maybe have some other way of
Speaker 6: trying to operate in the world.
Speaker 8: And I think Paris really gives.
Speaker 6: Some valuable insight on that. I think it was he
Speaker 6: does understand the sort of the environment he's in is
Speaker 6: violent and aggressive and is not a is a place
Speaker 6: of survival. It's the place that you just have to survive.
Speaker 6: And I think that's something that we forget about well,
Speaker 6: we don't know. If we think about when we think
Speaker 6: about prison and create this environment, that is a very
Speaker 6: difficult environment to really try and focus on anything else.
Speaker 6: Is it just a place that encourages people to bring
Speaker 6: out their worst qualities rather than somewhere that can maybe
Speaker 6: nature the other side of other parts of what people are.
Speaker 5: Does Charity fear that this violent prison environment will change
Speaker 5: her son or not? Regardless, does she have any qualms
Speaker 5: about his eventual release.
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm sure she doesn't. We talk about that
Speaker 6: quite a lot on and off.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 6: I think it's something she's afraid of, and she's worried
Speaker 6: about it, and she hopes that by the time that
Speaker 6: that comes she will feel you know, she doesn't know
Speaker 6: what her relationship will be with Paris at that point,
Speaker 6: or what place he'll be in, or how he'll be
Speaker 6: you know, what kind of work he might have done
Speaker 6: by that point. I mean, I'm sure I don't know
Speaker 6: whether it will be qualms or what it would be,
Speaker 6: but I'm sure there is anxiety and concern and ambiguity
Speaker 6: around that, around the idea of when he comes out
Speaker 6: what that will mean.
Speaker 5: But she's not giving up on him. It shows in
Speaker 5: the film where incident where she says I had enough,
Speaker 5: but certainly doesn't look like she's giving up on her
Speaker 5: son Paris anytime soon.
Speaker 7: It.
Speaker 6: No, I don't think so. I mean she takes she
Speaker 6: takes what she would call mental health breaks, which is,
Speaker 6: you know, she will have time where she's just like,
Speaker 6: I just can't, I can't, you know, we can't communicate
Speaker 6: for a while, whether it would be because they had
Speaker 6: a row about something or a disagreement or something, or
Speaker 6: she will just decide no, I need I need some
Speaker 6: time to you know, for myself. And during the time
Speaker 6: of us film, and I think there was about a
Speaker 6: year when they weren't in touch. And so I think
Speaker 6: she you know, she always seems pretty good at knowing
Speaker 6: what's what she's able to give. I don't think she's
Speaker 6: would be someone who would show up and visit him
Speaker 6: just to kind of give him a hard time. I
Speaker 6: think she'd always try to is going to be if
Speaker 6: you're going to be in it, you know, try and
Speaker 6: get what you can from that relationship. Absolutely, Yeah, I
Speaker 6: don't think she would. I don't. I mean, I'm not
Speaker 6: saying she wouldn't walk away, but I don't not something
Speaker 6: she's done yet.
Speaker 5: Absolutely Yeah. I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 5: coming on Katie Green and talking about the family. I
Speaker 5: had an engrossing look at an unthinkable crime. For those
Speaker 5: people that I know, this release has just been in March,
Speaker 5: so just recently. Where could they view this? How could
Speaker 5: they get a chance to take a look at this?
Speaker 6: Yep, this I believe we are available. Let me just
Speaker 6: subble chat. I think it's Amazon Prime Video, iTunes, who
Speaker 6: doo on Google Play?
Speaker 8: I believe.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely yes, and so it's available on demand so
Speaker 5: people can go out there and purchase it the family
Speaker 5: I had. I want to thank you very much Katie
Speaker 5: for coming on and talking about this very very very
Speaker 5: powerful documentary. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much
Speaker 5: and hope to talk to you sometimes.
Speaker 6: Thank you definitely, thank you so much for havinga bye.
Speaker 5: Thanks Ye