WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.320 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.320 We're going to do a year in review. I just 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:13.320 want to put that out up front before we do 4 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.920 introduce the panel. And this week on our panel, we 5 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:18.320 have a j O'Neill. 6 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:20.640 Yo yea yo, coming at you live from the Shed. 7 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:23.039 We also have Dan Shapierre. 8 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:25.800 Hello, coming to you from my birthday. 9 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:30.239 Well on birthday, Hey, Chuck, wasn't it your birthday? 10 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.320 Recently? I would say I did that like two days ago, 11 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:36.840 but well, happy birthday. I'm a little younger than you, so. 12 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:39.960 Yeah, Actually my birthday is tomorrow. Is of the time 13 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.439 of recording, it's on December seventeenth. 14 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:47.280 I gotcha. Yeah, mine's on the fourteenth, so like my wife, Yeah, 15 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.359 it's a good day to have a birthday. So yeah, 16 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:52.079 I am forty five. I don't know if you're going 17 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.280 to share, but I'm forty five, so I'm too old. 18 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:57.840 He's twenty seven. 19 00:00:57.960 --> 00:00:58.240 Again. 20 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.439 We also have Steve Edwards. 21 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:04.560 Yo, yo yo. It's been a few weeks, but I'm 22 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:05.439 back in the saddle. 23 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.640 Awesome. All right, Well, we're going to jump in do 24 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.079 this year interview. Dan suggested it. I think it's a 25 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:13.640 fun idea and we should probably have to do it 26 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:18.040 every year. Dan, you kind of gave us a list. 27 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:19.480 Do you want to just start at the top and 28 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:21.599 do our favorite episodes or. 29 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.840 Yeah, that's a good place to start. I just want 30 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.680 to say one thing ahead of that as well. It's 31 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.159 the fact that this year both Steve and I are 32 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:34.640 celebrating our fifty year on jobscript Jabber. It's it was 33 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:40.280 October twenty nineteen when I got into podcasting with you, Chuck, 34 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.879 what it was got into podcasting at all? Happened to 35 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:44.159 be with. 36 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.200 You, right, and AJ and I have been on since 37 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.000 the beginning and next month, in the middle of next month, 38 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:51.480 it will be twelve years. 39 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:56.159 Wow, that's that's Christmas years. 40 00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:01.239 That's wasn't this the first in pod cast in your empire? Chuck? 41 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.079 No Ruby Rogues Ruby May will be thirteen years. And 42 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.319 when I started, I started a show called Rail's Coach 43 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.159 and I was just interviewing people in the Ruby and 44 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.400 rails community. This was I started the podcast before I 45 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:20.919 was professionally writing code, and that was back in two 46 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:21.599 thousand and eight. 47 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.360 Just so you know that for Jews, thirteen is like 48 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:28.479 a lucky number. So like when you all have those 49 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.639 horror movies about you know, anything having to do with thirteen. 50 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.439 We're going, like, you know, what are they talking about? 51 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.080 You go to Vegas, they don't have thirteenth floor on 52 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:39.759 the exactly. 53 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.240 I thought seven was the number of like completeness or filming. 54 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:46.800 Well, there are all sorts of numbers, you know, seven, eight, 55 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.680 there's a whole thing like a look basically almost every 56 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:56.000 number has some mystic attribute associated with it. 57 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.080 Well, just in biblical literature, seven is like the number 58 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:01.199 of completeness or an as you see it all through that. 59 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:05.120 Yeah, But on the other hand, like you know, the 60 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.800 breath happens on the eighth day of the baby's eighth 61 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:10.280 day of you know. 62 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:14.240 So, so, Chuck, you were talking about that first podcast 63 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:16.159 you did it with Rails Coach. So did that one 64 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:17.879 eventually go off the rails? Was that it? 65 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.000 Uh, yeah, something like that. I wound up taking over 66 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.680 a video series, Teach Me to Code, and so I 67 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.039 rebranded it to the Teach Me to Code Podcast, and 68 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.400 I I quit doing that one about four months before 69 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.120 we started doing Ruey Rogues. 70 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:41.000 So anyway, Yeah, I've been thinking about this whole podcasting thing. 71 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:43.360 You know, it's it's really in a lot of ways. 72 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.520 It's our own contribution to open source because you know, 73 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:53.759 we're giving it free of charge. Yes, yeah, so yeah, 74 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.360 lots of lots of lots of lots of content and 75 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.800 uh and learning. I know that I've learned the whole 76 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.639 time of things from this podcast as we've started. 77 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:08.599 Yeah. I sometimes I'm kind of surprised because the episodes 78 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.439 that are sometimes the most controversial are the ones where 79 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:14.879 I learn the most because you know, I'll make a claim, 80 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:16.920 I'll say you can't do that, and somebody will be like, 81 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.439 yeah you can. Here's how I'm like, oh, okay. 82 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.519 You know. Also when I try to like think about, 83 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:28.800 you know, our role plays whatever, call it whatever, within 84 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:33.160 the podcasting universe, you know, there are podcasts that are 85 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.480 I would say, you know, if you're looking for, you know, 86 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:39.360 in a short and sweet overview of a topic, there 87 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.160 are podcasts that are better than us. I think if 88 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:47.720 you're looking for high production value or or lots of 89 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.399 fun and celebration, there are better podcasts for that than us. 90 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:54.279 When I try to think about what we excel at, 91 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:57.120 I think it's the depth of the content. You know, 92 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:01.439 topics that get thirty minut it to an hour coverage 93 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.800 on other podcasts, get one and a half to two 94 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:07.879 hours worth of coverage on our podcast, sometimes even more. 95 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.519 Yeah. The other thing is is that a lot of 96 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.199 times we get it's not just the depth, but it's 97 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:19.040 it's really the conversationality around the topic. And so we 98 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.600 tend to get a little bit more into, you know, 99 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.040 challenging assumptions and talking about, you know, when when we 100 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:27.240 make the trade offs that make whatever it is we're 101 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.720 talking about worth it. So you know, as an example, 102 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.160 you know, we've talked about different technologies and the one 103 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.600 that's coming to mind is typeescript. Right where we get 104 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:37.480 into typescript, we get into you know, whether or not 105 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:39.480 we want to do that. And what I've found is 106 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:41.839 that in a lot of cases, what we expose isn't 107 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:44.319 that typescript is or isn't the right way to go, 108 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.839 but rather what the concerns are that make it really 109 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.680 pay off or not necessarily pay off in the way 110 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.279 that we're talking about. And we get that on so 111 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.399 many of these other things where it's you get to 112 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.040 a certain point and what was nice to have becomes indispensable, 113 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.000 and then other things that were indispensable when you were 114 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:06.199 smaller become not so important anymore because you're just beyond 115 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:08.920 those concerns and so it I love. I love the 116 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.600 interplay and figuring out, Okay, how does this play into 117 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:13.959 what I care about? 118 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.920 It's a funny thing. But you know, our last episode 119 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.399 was with the Uncle Bob, and if you listen to 120 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.399 the live stream rather than the edited version, literally the 121 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.759 first words on that recording is me saying to Uncle Bob, 122 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:37.519 I disagree. Yeah. That are literally the first word on 123 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.199 the recording. Before you know, you don't even hear what 124 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:42.079 I disagree with. 125 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.360 So well, while while we're tuoting around horn here, like 126 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.680 you know, I listened to a lot of other Oh 127 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.879 Me Too web development podcasts, various different sources, and I 128 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:56.720 think the one thing that really makes us unique is 129 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:57.360 the dad jokes. 130 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:00.639 At the end, I'm. 131 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.839 Gonna say, if I now, if I remember correctly, Dan, 132 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:05.800 you told the story you were at a conference one 133 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:10.079 time in France, France, somewhere over there on that outside 134 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.920 of the world, and somebody asked you about the dad jokes, 135 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.279 or somebody said something about the dad jokes, And I 136 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:17.279 have to say I was really proud at that moment 137 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:19.800 in time. Then there was also the guy on Twitter 138 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.639 who said, uh, he was responding to the JavaScript jab 139 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.040 or Twitter account, and he said something about all the 140 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.199 smart guys and that one funny guy, and so I 141 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:37.199 was like, that's either a really backhanded compliment or I 142 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:38.839 wasn't sure how to take that, but thank you David 143 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:39.680 anyway for that one. 144 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:44.639 So yeah, awesome. All right, well let's let's dive in. 145 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:49.160 You said I think I listed my five favorite episodes 146 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.639 but or guests, but you said three I think in 147 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:52.759 your list, Dan. 148 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:58.680 Yeah, I said three and then did five as well. Three. 149 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:02.160 I have to say that this year, well every year really, 150 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:07.120 but this year had some awesome content in it. Oh yeah, 151 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.240 it was really hard for me to pick, so I 152 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.439 tried to pick three. I ended up with effectively five, 153 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.040 and I have another five or six runner runner runners up, 154 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.639 and even the ones that didn't make my list are 155 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:21.680 mostly really great. 156 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.279 So yeah, well it's funny because you know, I think 157 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.600 we shared our lists, and some of the ones that 158 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.519 you guys picked were on my list until I found 159 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.679 some of the other ones, and they just barely dropped off. 160 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.720 So I think we're kind of in the same mindset 161 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.559 as far as like where we really shined, I think, 162 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:42.399 and where our guests really shine. 163 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.600 So yeah, and it's also you know, people who listened 164 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.120 to podcasts know this. You know a lot of times 165 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:51.600 guests do make the rounds, so it's you know, they 166 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.919 are introducing some new technology and new release and new version. 167 00:08:55.559 --> 00:09:02.399 They visit several podcasts, usually in proximity in terms of time, 168 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:08.000 and so the episodes tend to cluster and it's interesting 169 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:12.840 to compare. So again, where we differentiate and where I 170 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:15.879 at least try to put the emphasis is trying to 171 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:18.360 go deep into the technology. And also, like you said, 172 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:21.480 challenge some assumptions like it's not good enough to say 173 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.600 this is the best approach or this is the approach 174 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:29.240 that I chose. I am going to ask why, Yeah, 175 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.279 because I think it's really important to understand, especially that 176 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.200 given these days, almost everything has alternatives. 177 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:35.759 Yep. 178 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.759 So I'll start with my picks, because like you said, 179 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:44.600 I suggested it, and I'll basically just go in chronological 180 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.240 order because I can't really decide which ones are the 181 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.919 best among these five. So the first one that I 182 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:55.240 picked was the interview that we had with Rich Harris 183 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:57.399 about five. 184 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:02.720 That was the last one that dropped off my list. 185 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.559 If there was a number six for me, that was it. 186 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:09.399 So this is episode six two seven, And the reason 187 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:12.080 that I loved it so much is that Rich is 188 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:16.720 this rare combination of a guy that is able to 189 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.159 see the on the one hand, see the really big 190 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:24.320 picture and really like blow my mind on occasions with 191 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.519 his perception of how things can and should be done. 192 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.240 At the same time, he's definitely able to execute. He's 193 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.960 more or less built Svelt, and he's also a great communicator, 194 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.159 so when you add it all up together, he's just 195 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.000 this awesome guy. And we had a really deep discussion 196 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.440 with him about Sweled five when where he took a 197 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.200 really courageous step and more or less like turned the 198 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:53.320 platform that Swelled platform on its head and added runs 199 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:57.519 instead of the compiler primitives that they that he had 200 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.799 in the language before. And it was a really interesting 201 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.440 discussion with him to understand the Svelt philosophy on the 202 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.440 one hand, but on the other hand, what drove him 203 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:12.360 to make such a significant change in his creation. 204 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.840 Yeah, yeah, I think for me, and you'll see this 205 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:18.639 with a lot of the ones that I picked as well, 206 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:21.720 a lot of times it was something that was kind 207 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.679 of outside of the norm, you know, the things that 208 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:30.559 everybody's kind of talked about all year and challenges the 209 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.320 way that you think about the way you solve some 210 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.279 of your problems. And so, you know, SVELT in a 211 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.480 lot of ways, it solves a lot of the same 212 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:40.480 problems that say, React or something else does. But the 213 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.919 flip side of it is is that he does do 214 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:44.759 a lot of things that go kind of counter to 215 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.879 the way that React solve some of those problems. And 216 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.720 so I just I like the thinking as far as, hey, 217 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.720 we're adopting these patterns that everybody else is talking about, 218 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:57.879 but we're also doing these other things in this way 219 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.159 because of, as you said, Dan, the philosophy that we 220 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.440 have about how we approach web development. And so I 221 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:07.759 just that was for me. The thing is, it was 222 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.480 it was like, Okay, I've got these disparate ideas in 223 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.840 my head, and he's really making me think about what 224 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:14.440 I care about. 225 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.879 And like I said, it also takes guts to make 226 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:26.080 such a significant change in the framework itself. I mean, 227 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.440 you know, SVELT is not the leading platform, but it 228 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:34.039 is a leading platform, and I'm sure that you know 229 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:36.960 it's there are people who like sveelt the way that 230 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.799 it is and making such a significant change is a 231 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:41.399 big risk. 232 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:44.799 Yeah, well, you saw it kind of not work for 233 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.480 Angular when they when they made their big change, and 234 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.120 you know there are reasons for that, and I don't 235 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:51.600 you know that we need to go into it, but yeah, 236 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:53.080 I mean it does take it a certain amount of 237 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:56.600 courage because you recognize that it has kind of not 238 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:58.720 gone the way you want it to in other cases. 239 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.960 And again going up talking about the depth that we 240 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.720 went into, this episode did run for one hour and 241 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:15.200 twenty something minutes, and we really dug deep into the 242 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.279 details of the various technical decisions that he made, what 243 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.279 drove him to make it, the implications that they have, 244 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.480 how they're going to change the way that people write 245 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:30.080 SVELT code, why he thinks it's a better way to 246 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.320 write Svealt code than the way that you know it 247 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.240 was created before. SVELT is really unique in the way 248 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:38.559 that it worked. I think it was the first framework 249 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.639 to actually introduce a compiler. Now a lot of the 250 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:46.519 other frameworks are kind of following suit and adding a 251 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.840 compiler as well, even React, and I'm not talking just 252 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.600 about compiling jasex. It's also one of the few who've 253 00:13:55.240 --> 00:14:00.320 intentionally not embraced JSX, but rather have their own way 254 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:05.840 of doing things with these swelt files. So it's really interesting. 255 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.159 And like I said, it was one of my most 256 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.399 favorite discussions this year. So this is my first one. 257 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.799 Should I go to my next one? Or should we 258 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.600 have somebody else pick their first one? 259 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:18.879 Yeah? Was that your number one? 260 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.919 Or was that that was my number one? In chronological order? 261 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.840 I said, I couldn't decide in my top five, like 262 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:30.080 which one was the number one? Yeah? 263 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:31.360 AJ, what was your number one? 264 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:32.559 Well? 265 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:34.759 I also don't really want to claim number one because 266 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.639 I didn't go through the list with a fine tooth 267 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.519 comb to be able to say. But I just picked 268 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.960 some to highlight. But I think what I'll highlight first 269 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:49.039 is the two part episode with Kyle Simpson. I really 270 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.840 just like the Joe Rogan style. I just love Okay, 271 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:55.679 we're just gonna sit and we're gonna talk and we're 272 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:00.320 gonna say stuff. And that one was really unique in that, 273 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.759 uh we we we got we got a bit raw 274 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:11.879 and gritty talking about various issues and and so I 275 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.039 thought that was really just it was just really interesting 276 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:22.759 to to have that format and to hear to hear 277 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.679 Kyle honestly talk about his uh you know, the the 278 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.080 rise and fall of Kyle Simpson in a way, I 279 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.799 mean that that's that's saying it a little dramatically, but 280 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.879 you know, like like talking talking about the challenges that 281 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.519 he'd gone through and kind of being a tech influence 282 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:42.840 still going and changes in economy. 283 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:49.639 Still going through. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Was an excellent episode, 284 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.440 one that unfortunately I was not able to participate in, 285 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.000 but it was great listening to it. You know, that's 286 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.879 one of the advantages of missing an episode that I 287 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:03.919 get to listen to them. And it's really interesting because, 288 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.240 like you said, it was a two parter. It actually 289 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:08.600 came out as two parts because it was even though 290 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:13.799 it was recorded in one go I believe, right, Yeah, 291 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.879 because it ran so long, and the two parts are 292 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:20.840 really kind of different from each other, Like obviously they 293 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.240 kind of bleed into one another, but they're still kind 294 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.720 of different. The first one is mostly technical, you guys, 295 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:30.879 talking about offline and client side first and stuff like 296 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:35.440 that and technology, and the second part really talking much 297 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:41.240 more personal about your careers, especially your current career situation. 298 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:42.320 I guess. 299 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:45.120 Yeah, I was sad to miss that one too, because 300 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:46.639 I love talking to Kyle, and. 301 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:48.080 Oh, Kyle is amazing. 302 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.279 Yeah, we've done some other things together as well. I 303 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.879 mean we did a kind of a boot camp kind 304 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.799 of thing, and you know, and it's just yeah, it's 305 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:58.639 always cool to see what he's working on, because he's 306 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:00.120 always got something interesting going on on. 307 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:06.839 He's also another guy who's similarly to Rich. He sees 308 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.480 the bigger picture, he's able to delve into the details, 309 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.160 and he's obviously very good at expressing himself. 310 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:16.240 Yeah, and he's not afraid either to speak up if 311 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:18.039 he sees something that needs to change. 312 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.000 Yeah, sometimes to his own detriment. 313 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.640 Yes, yes, fair enough, but still, I mean we need 314 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.359 those voices. If everybody just you know, kind of clams 315 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.599 up when it's you know, oh, well, that's not going 316 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.359 to be popular or inconvenient, we don't benefit as much 317 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.039 as when we have those people saying, hey, wait a minute, 318 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.000 let's think about this too. 319 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.079 Yeah. For those of you who didn't listen to that 320 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.039 episode yet, first of all, again I highly recommend it. 321 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:50.480 He was very forthright about the fact that he's currently 322 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:55.519 effectively unemployed and that he's finding it very challenging to 323 00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:00.680 find jobs in the current market. I don't know if 324 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.799 he's found a job since then, but if not, then 325 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:07.200 you're listening to this episode and you have positions open 326 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.200 you should you know, Kyle should be high on your list. 327 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:16.799 Yep, absolutely all right, Steve, did you have a top 328 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:18.079 one that you wanted to bring up? 329 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.160 Uh, well, let's see Dan mentioned the one. I'll mention 330 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.279 a couple here real quick. Uh, the one with Rich Harris. 331 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.279 And I think I've mentioned this before, but one of 332 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.039 the one of the fun things, you know, as you 333 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.559 mentioned it's been a few years about doing this podcast 334 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.960 is looking back over the years, is some of it, 335 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.039 for lack of a better term, the luminaries in the 336 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.960 web dev world that we get to talk to, you know, 337 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:52.240 Rich Harris being one, Kyle Simpson, some of the devrell's 338 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:57.160 at Google and just different places. That's just hey, I 339 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.039 got to talk to this guy and this guy and 340 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.240 they're like, oh, you know, on my I One of 341 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.200 the other podcast I did for a while was used 342 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:09.359 on view and uh, you know, the highlight there for 343 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.960 me living in the Larravlle world was getting to interview 344 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.599 Taylor out Well because. 345 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:16.400 It's such an interesting guy. 346 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.960 Anyway, Oh man, that the the ecosystem that sprung up 347 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.480 around everything that he started up is is just amazing, 348 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.519 you know, and I use a lot of it on 349 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.039 a day to day basis. So some of those things 350 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.319 are just so fun just looking at who I get 351 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:34.480 to talk to, and Rich Harris being one of them, 352 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.480 you know, it's so well known for starting creating spelt 353 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:39.640 when he was at the New York Times and then 354 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:41.759 you know where he's gone on to so and he 355 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.759 was just such a down to earth guy, real easy 356 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.680 to talk to. It was real fun who you know. 357 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.440 For me, the highlight more of the ways I grade 358 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.160 how good guests are is how much they laugh at 359 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.759 my dad jokes. And you guys are all numb to them. 360 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.279 And so the guests are usually laughing, you know, pretty 361 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:00.000 hard at some of them. 362 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.720 Rich really Rich a cold one or two as I recall. 363 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.480 Yeah, yeah, there's yeah, he did. I think there was 364 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.200 another one, Charles, the guy that did what's the big 365 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.319 data table company? 366 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.960 Uh that? Oh good lord. 367 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.599 I can't think of the name right now. It's I 368 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:23.160 used to hear ads for it all the time with 369 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:28.359 on webrush anyway, and he jumped in and told the 370 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.880 string of about five or six Dad jokes. I want 371 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.319 to say his name is Oliver or something like, oh 372 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:34.000 my god, I was given him a standing ambition that 373 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:37.000 was awesome. But uh, yeah, that was fun with Rich. 374 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.599 The other one of the other favorites i'll mention, uh 375 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.559 and these were short of along the same lines, is uh, 376 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.160 you know when I get to bring view specific stuff 377 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.160 into here just because I don't uh not doing views 378 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.240 on View anymore. Is a buddy of mine that I've 379 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.039 gotten to know, and I still He and I talk 380 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:59.160 all the time. As Eric Hanshet. Oh yeah, and Eric 381 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:04.880 was an initial one of the original posts on View 382 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.400 and he actually you can say he wrote the book 383 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.640 on View or a book on View on View two 384 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:16.000 was telling about you two, I forget the title. And 385 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:17.319 he and I talk all the time. I got to 386 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.079 meet him in person here when he was here in 387 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:24.079 Portland a few months ago. But his thing now is 388 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.480 he's at AWS doing a lot of view specific stuff 389 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.640 with a WS and so I had him episode six. 390 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:37.759 I don't remember what the date is when this one 391 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.400 came out. It's not shown me, but we talked about 392 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.119 all the stuff cool stuff they do with you and 393 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.279 all the things that he's built or helped, you know, 394 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:47.200 built at AWS. That makes it real. 395 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:47.559 Easy to. 396 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.680 Build a view app at AWS. And it's all specific 397 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.599 to their stack, you know. It's not like you can 398 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.400 add pieces in like your own local myskcual database like that. 399 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.079 So you're using all their services, but all the ways 400 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.039 they've made it that if you want to to drink 401 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.839 the AWS kool aid, so to speak, then it's pretty easy, 402 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.680 uh to do it with all the stuff that he's 403 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.640 worked on. So it was a lot of fun just 404 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.400 because I know him and it worked with them over 405 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:16.200 the years. 406 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:21.160 Yep, awesome. I'm gonna jump in here with with my 407 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.319 I'm going to throw out my top two and then 408 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.880 I'll just kind of talk about why I like them. Uh. 409 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.400 The the top one I had was with Steve Sewell 410 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.680 it was making AI accessible for developers. And then the 411 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:36.160 other one was with Danny Moore Kirk. I can't I'm 412 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.759 not sure if I said that right, but new in 413 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.039 whim web development. So with Steve, we were talking about 414 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:49.039 building AI features and using AI systems and and UH 415 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:54.680 services in in your JavaScript. And I had a similar 416 00:22:54.680 --> 00:23:00.200 conversation with Obi Fernandez on Ruby rogues, you know, with 417 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.079 with my co hosts on that show, and then you know, 418 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:06.759 with Danny, the thing is is that I just get 419 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.119 excited about these added capabilities that are coming out for 420 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.000 the different platforms that we work in. And you know, 421 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.480 whether it's AI, which seems to be getting a lot 422 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.839 of love right now, or it's you know, some of 423 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.640 these other options that we have with the web APIs 424 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:26.000 and browser APIs and things like that, where we can 425 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.000 you know, do more things with with the web. I 426 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.359 just I love the ideas of kind of opening up 427 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.200 the gates and saying, hey, you know, the only limit 428 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:39.599 really is is your creativity and your familiarity with these APIs. 429 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.880 And so you know, one of the things on Dan's 430 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:46.960 list was to get into trends and what's coming in 431 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.880 the future, and and I think both of these really 432 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.200 lean into that and that I'm one of those people. 433 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.519 It drives my wife a little bit crazy because when 434 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.400 I talk about things, I can't ever just talk about 435 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.240 how things are. I always talk about how I think 436 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:03.920 things are going to go and what could possibly happen 437 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.839 that's exciting, and you know, and then she'll try and 438 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.359 rain me back into reality. You know, this is how 439 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.720 things are right now. But I just I love the 440 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:17.519 idea of being able to go out and and you know, 441 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:20.599 the opportunities that these things offer. And sure there are 442 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.200 probably some things that we ought to be careful of 443 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.160 as we adopt these things, you know, speaking of AI 444 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:31.839 in particular, But I just I love thinking about what 445 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:33.720 could be the capability going forward. 446 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.000 Steve is another great example of such a prolific person. 447 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:42.920 He's simultaneously the CEO at builder Io, one of the 448 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:49.279 big contributors too Quick Quick framework. They've done some really 449 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.960 interesting things with integrating AI into building websites and coding 450 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:01.920 assistance and stuff like that. And he he gave really 451 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:07.799 down to earth advice about how to best leverage AI 452 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.799 in potential products, and especially given all the all the 453 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:19.720 hype around AI, his advice was so pertinent and so real. 454 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:26.480 I thought it was extremely valuable. Yeah, and with regard 455 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.880 to Danny, I totally agree as well. I wasn't aware 456 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:35.359 of all the work that he's been doing around progressive 457 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:40.240 web apps, the way he's basically mapped out all the 458 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.720 features and capabilities that you can get with them. I 459 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.559 forget the r L of the of the page that 460 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.279 he created, the one you find that the aj you 461 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:55.240 really loved because it was actually snappy, which you found surprising. 462 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.839 But he he has He's built this great website where 463 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.640 you can literally see all the different features that you 464 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:10.839 can get with modern web applications, stuff like background sync 465 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:18.599 and access to various device capabilities from vibration to geolocation 466 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:22.839 to the camera and so on and so forth. And 467 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:28.839 it was really, again, really informative and very practical, which 468 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:32.319 I think makes for the best episodes where our listeners 469 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.200 and us can really take away language, language, we can 470 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.599 take away capabilities and things that we can apply literally 471 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:47.559 in our day to day. Is it my turn again 472 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.440 or is it? Or is it no? I think it's 473 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:51.359 my turn again, right. 474 00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:54.599 I think everybody's gone, So yeah, go ahead. I think 475 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.920 if we do all five from all of us, we're 476 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.160 gonna eat up all the time. So let's just kind 477 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.440 of get one more and then I think we can 478 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.319 get into some of the other areas here. 479 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.079 So I'll just say the next three and all at once, 480 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.279 and I'll make it quick. So my next three are 481 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:16.880 the Dino two episode that we had with Ryan Dahl. Yeah. 482 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:22.039 Ryan Dall is such an amazing person and his contribution 483 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.160 to the web is you know, there are few people 484 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.839 who've made such a great contribution. He's also the creator, 485 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:31.799 the original creator of no JS, and we spoke with 486 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.279 them with him about both about what drove his creation 487 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:39.200 of no JS and then what drove his decision to 488 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.599 kind of depart from no JS and create Dino and 489 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.279 what they're trying to achieve now with Dino two. And 490 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.680 it was again a really in depth conversation and an 491 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.440 amazing conversationation. In my opinion, I've learned a lot and 492 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.119 I was geeking out the entire time, So that was 493 00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:58.759 another pick. Another pick that I had is a one 494 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:03.960 on one conversation that I did with Matt Pocock about typescript. 495 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.519 If you've got any interest in typescript, this is a 496 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:11.799 Musclessen episode. We talked about everything from the upsides and 497 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.680 downsides of typescript, how various people choose to use that 498 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.960 tool and language, what's the best way to actually adopt 499 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:27.119 it in your organization. When are you doing typescript right? 500 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:31.480 When are you doing typescrip wrong. It was an amazing conversation, 501 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.279 and I'm really grateful for him for the long time 502 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:39.880 that he gave us to cover all this information. And 503 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:43.599 my final pick is actually a two for one. It's 504 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.640 the two episodes around the Pillars of Node that we 505 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.559 did with the Note effectively with the Note Core team 506 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:55.799 with Matteo Colina, Michael Dawson, James Snell, and Natalia Venditto. 507 00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:01.519 I literally made everybody in my company more or less 508 00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.920 listen to that to those episodes. They were just so good. 509 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:12.160 They were so practical talking about how to properly build 510 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.720 an enterprise grade solution on top of no JS and 511 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.920 by the way, a lot of their recommendations were pertinent 512 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:24.480 regardless of what platform you build your enterprise solution on 513 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:28.240 top of It was such a great conversation, which is 514 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.759 why it ran for two episodes. So again, some of 515 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:35.480 them were actually on other podcasts, so if you're looking 516 00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:39.119 for a quick rundown of the topic, you might do 517 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.640 better listening. I think they were. For example, on jas Party, 518 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.680 they covered the topic in something like forty minutes and 519 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.279 it was a great coverage. I really enjoyed that episode. 520 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:53.200 We went deep. We covered it for almost three hours, 521 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.799 so that's kind of the difference. And like I said, 522 00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.720 I loved it. I enjoyed every minute of those three hours. 523 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.799 Yeah, and just to be clear, on that one or 524 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:06.240 on those two, I should say those were actually recorded 525 00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:11.160 in separate sessions, right, And so for example, I missed 526 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:12.720 the first one, but I was on the second one. 527 00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:16.119 And so if you're thinking it's just one continuous conversation, 528 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:19.880 it kind of is, because we do type back in 529 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.519 as much as we can, but we recorded them a 530 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:24.319 couple weeks apart, so just be aware. 531 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.720 Yeah, those are my favorite episodes this year. I have 532 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.039 some runners up, but like you said, we'll run out 533 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:33.000 of time. 534 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:35.880 Yeah, A j what about you do? You do you 535 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:38.039 have a handful more you want to talk through. 536 00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:42.599 Yeah, so I'll just go ahead and list these. I 537 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:46.519 also picked the the Nine Pillars of Node. I wasn't 538 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:48.359 there for the second one, but I thought that that 539 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:51.119 was really good. I think that I just I'm so 540 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:55.319 I'm so excited this gets into the next copy. But 541 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:58.720 I'm so excited about the trend of maybe we need 542 00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:03.559 to make software better. And I just I really like 543 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:09.079 that because for the longest time it's just been framework, framework, framework, framework, framework, money, money, money, money, money, 544 00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:12.599 investor capital aws, whatever, And we're getting to the point 545 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.279 where we're hitting the atoms and we have to reevaluate 546 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:20.240 maybe software needs to get better. Maybe we actually have 547 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:24.759 to do our jobs. And the Nine Pillars of Node 548 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:30.519 had a lot of practical advice for really things that 549 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:35.680 that everybody who is developing with JavaScript and especially with Node, 550 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:37.359 but I think it applied a lot of it applied 551 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.079 to javascripts in general. Everybody needs to know that stuff 552 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:46.240 because if they don't, you're not you. I mean, I 553 00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:48.799 all do there's you know, all the moral implications of 554 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.079 you know, nine to five implication. 555 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:54.240 It's just a question of craftsmanship. 556 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:56.799 Well, that's what I'm saying. It's like like whether or 557 00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.400 not you want to be a like are you responsible 558 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.680 for learning to do your job? Well? Right, you could 559 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.039 you could argue yes or no, like you don't actually 560 00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.640 have responsibility as long as you conect to pay check whatever, 561 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.119 it doesn't matter. That's what you're hard to do. But anyway, 562 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:12.759 I just I think that kind of stuff I want 563 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:14.279 to see more of that. I want to see more 564 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:18.799 engineers in the industry. And that episode was one that 565 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.440 if you aspire to be an engineer, you need you 566 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.880 need to listen to those two episodes and check out 567 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.680 the website. Another one that I had was there's actually 568 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.799 two at the very beginning of the year. One was 569 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.960 iterating on open source, and again this plays into what 570 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:41.920 later in the year started to come about, is the 571 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.079 idea of hey, why don't like let's be profitable, And 572 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.480 I think DHH is leading the charge on that right 573 00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:52.119 now kind of it's kind of a different, more tangential vein, but. 574 00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:56.960 I want to make sure we get the trend, so 575 00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:59.000 you can come back to that if you want to. 576 00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:04.720 Yeah. And then another one was dev dilemmas, where we 577 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:08.880 talked about some of the trade offs with typescript. I 578 00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:11.519 think I think it was like typescript and js doc 579 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.480 or something like that. Let me see if I can 580 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:19.759 find out again. But that those yeah, those were ones. 581 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:23.799 Oh yeah, we talked about a bunch of syntax stuff 582 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.279 and oh, a bunch of nippicks. 583 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:29.759 The one that I did after I ran a poll 584 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:34.039 with the with the people on X right before like 585 00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:39.039 after the people left the Blue Sky. So yeah, I 586 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.519 ran a whole I ran a whole bunch of polls 587 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:44.559 in the last year, and then we did an episode 588 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:46.039 about it on January. 589 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:52.279 Yep, all right, Steve, do you do you have a 590 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.000 couple more you want to bring up or. 591 00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:59.079 Yeah, just one more was the one we did back 592 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:02.640 in August with a guy named again this is Sorry, 593 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.799 This is You specific you know some of the other 594 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.119 ones we've talked about. There was a couple with dev 595 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:09.360 tools I remember that were fascinating for me because I 596 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.280 like to live in those. But I thought we pretty 597 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.199 did it, pretty cool, and with a guy named Daniel 598 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:19.480 Kelly from VI School. He's in the in the View 599 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:23.639 community of View School and Daniel er are pretty prolific. 600 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:25.880 This was episode six fifty two. I think it was 601 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:29.000 October eighth was when it came out. But for me 602 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.079 that was fun just because I'd always sort of seen 603 00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.039 him around and hadn't had the chance to talk to him, 604 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:36.599 and so he came on and super friendly, super nice, 605 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.239 and we just talked about all kinds of view and 606 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:43.119 view and next goodies. So for me that was that 607 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:44.159 was a particularly fun one. 608 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.480 Yeah, there's always interesting stuff going on too with the 609 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.480 frameworks like nuxt and so yeah, it's good to hear 610 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.920 about those. I'm gonna throw in, well, hey. 611 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:56.119 Tired, check real quick before you go. I don't know 612 00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:58.320 if anybody's been paying attention to what Evan You's got 613 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.039 going on. So Evan You is the the creator of You, 614 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:06.000 and you know, he's one of those He's one of 615 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.239 those guys like some of the other people we talked about, 616 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.239 that can just whip something out in moments notice and 617 00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:16.639 it takes off. You know that. I was listening to 618 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:18.880 an episode of But there's another view podcast that a 619 00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:22.079 couple of guys started up after, you know, to carry 620 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:26.679 My Mantle Forward called Deja Vu and Michael Theesen and 621 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:30.880 Alexander Lichter, and they had a they did an episode 622 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.679 from u KOMF that just came out recently, and so 623 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.199 they were doing a panel episode with two of the 624 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.360 people at Revenue and another one was Daniel Rowe, who's 625 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:41.880 ahead of all the next you and I had him 626 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.360 on the podcast a few times. Probably one of the 627 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:48.440 nicest people you will ever meet. And uh. One of 628 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.559 the questions they asked all the panelists was what was 629 00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:54.079 all the side projects you worked on? And Evan Ues 630 00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.519 was beat I'm like, oh god, you know literally I 631 00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:00.800 can remember when he first started working on it and 632 00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:02.679 I saw it was like, I don't know if it's 633 00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:04.639 the GitHub post or a blog post or something along 634 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.079 with lines. Yeah, I just started working on it this weekend. 635 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.000 Y and he worked on ever the weekend and it 636 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:13.800 took off, and now it's replaced Webpack all over the place. 637 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:16.159 They have a whole new core team. There's even a 638 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:19.960 VAT comp you know, and all because of something he 639 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:21.159 just whipped up over the weekend. 640 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:23.719 And you know what that reminds me off, by the way, 641 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.840 what's that? It's Linus creating get right. 642 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.719 Yeah, it starts the mailing list and yeah, I'm gonna 643 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.039 start working on this. I think you did it like 644 00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:36.360 a month or something like that over a weekend. That 645 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:42.039 just blows my mind. So anyway, the way heat works is, uh, 646 00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.639 he he used roll up for the actual production bundling, 647 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:53.000 and then uh, the VAT he started using modules. I'm 648 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:58.039 already blame it anyway, Yes, modules, yes, modules, thank you, 649 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.719 good lord. And uh so he's packaged it together. 650 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:01.920 Well. 651 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.800 Now he started his own company called Void zero and 652 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.519 the idea and it calls it the next Generation tool 653 00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:13.920 Chain for JavaScript. So his TLDR is that if it's 654 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.800 a company dedicated to building an open source, high performance 655 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.039 and unified development tool change for the job script ecosystem. So, 656 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:23.960 you know, considering what he's done with View, what he's 657 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.559 done with vat. You know what knuxt is doing out there, 658 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.519 It's going to be fascinating to watch that and see, 659 00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:34.239 you know, if you can have this one to borrow 660 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:35.719 from the Lord of the rings, one tool set to 661 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.480 rule them all type of approach and see how well 662 00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:40.079 that works. 663 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:44.000 I really love what he's doing. It was actually one 664 00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.400 of my picks for the themes of the year, but 665 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.639 I doubt it will be the one tool because if 666 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.039 nothing else Verse sell with next gs have picked a 667 00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:54.880 different tool. 668 00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.719 Right right, Yes, you know, and I don't think I 669 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:01.719 think it's a bad thing when you have one thing 670 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.360 that dominates everything. You know, it's just like economics, like 671 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:07.400 anything else. Competition is what pushes everything to be better. 672 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.000 And if so, if you have one that just sort 673 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:13.679 of dominates, then then you see atrophy and not as 674 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.400 much growth. So I think it'll be a great entry 675 00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:20.599 into the ecosystem, but I don't know if it will necessarily, 676 00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.639 you know, take over everything else. But considering how well 677 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:25.039 beats done or it means to be seen. 678 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:28.239 Yeah, to be fair, I'm pretty sure that Vercell didn't 679 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:29.440 just pick a different one. 680 00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.559 They built it, right, Yeah, it's their place. They hired 681 00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:34.920 the guy who created what pack. 682 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:38.679 Yeah, and it's all written in Rust and it's pretty 683 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:39.559 fancy good. 684 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.079 Stuff or something. 685 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:44.960 Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah, all right, I'm gonna 686 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.960 throw in the rest of mine now. Interesting. So these 687 00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:51.639 kind of fall into two buckets. One is and so 688 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:54.079 the other honorable mention, I guess I'll start from the 689 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:58.159 bottom was the chrom dev Tools episode that was in 690 00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:02.199 there and this goes long. We actually have too, Yeah, 691 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:05.280 we did, and I can't remember which one I'm thinking of, 692 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:09.360 but there was one that with just I just yeah, I. 693 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:12.719 Think you're talking about the one about the performance panel 694 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:17.599 because some of the yeah brought up was like the 695 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:20.440 fact that they had to change the one of the 696 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:24.840 functions signatures and just to make the code run faster. Yeah, 697 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.400 like inception, how they ran the profiling on the profiler 698 00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:30.079 or something like that. 699 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:33.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's the that's the one. And 700 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:35.719 then the So the other one that's related is the 701 00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:37.599 one that Dan. When Dan came on, he talked to 702 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.519 us about Prometheus and Grafana. 703 00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:41.559 Oh thank you. 704 00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.159 What what for me is a lot of times we 705 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.800 talk about like the sexy new technology is like beat 706 00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.960 beat right, and and beat is great, but a lot 707 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.840 of times we're not talking about some of these other 708 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:55.280 things that we're gonna wind up using on a regular 709 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.599 basis that give us real insight into what we're doing. 710 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.039 And I just I think the tool continue to get better, 711 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:02.719 and a lot of times we just take it for granted, 712 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:06.119 whether it's hey, visual Studio code does this other thing, 713 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:09.920 or you know, hey, I'm using whatever other system and 714 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.719 it you know, it makes my life better, right, whether 715 00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:14.719 you're hosted on vercell and they come up with some 716 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.519 new way of giving you insight into your app anyway, 717 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.119 I just I really really love that stuff. And you know, 718 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.400 some of the stuff that kind of veers a little 719 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.559 bit more into DevOps and just knowing what's going on. 720 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.400 But the other two are more in the vein of 721 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:33.239 you know, how do we get better and how do 722 00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:36.079 we fix our thinking? And so these were the ones. 723 00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:39.679 Slaughtering sacred cows, reconsidering software debtruisms. 724 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:42.760 That was a very moving episode. 725 00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:46.199 Yeah, Tomo is a great guy. Yeah, I actually met 726 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:47.760 him this weekend. 727 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:48.480 So how nice. 728 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.760 Yeah, we're close friends. Yeah. 729 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.199 I really the thing that really stood out to me 730 00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:56.400 was just you know, it was like, hey, look, you're 731 00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:59.039 probably thinking about these things and What was interesting is 732 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.639 is we could get into the hey, well, I haven't 733 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.639 experienced the benefit that you're bringing up on some of 734 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.199 these things, and you know, and it was just, hey, 735 00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:09.400 I'm solving different problems or I'm thinking about things in 736 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.719 different ways, and I think we need more of that, right, 737 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:16.800 more of that? Okay, Am I thinking about this in 738 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:20.039 the most productive way? Am I solving these problems in 739 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.800 meaningful ways? And how does that get us where we 740 00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:25.639 want to go? And then the other one was mentorship 741 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:29.760 in tech balancing professionalism and friendship for maximum growth and accountability. 742 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.920 And we had I can't remember the guy's names, but 743 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:34.079 you know, the one guy had mentored the other guy 744 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.960 off of code mentor or something like that. They were 745 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:40.199 just talking about their relationship and then how that had 746 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:43.360 kind of also you know, in the context of the 747 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.480 one of them being an actual mentor to the other one, 748 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:47.559 and then how that grew into a friendship and how 749 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:49.639 they continue to challenge each other and stuff like that. 750 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:51.920 And again, you know, I think as much as we 751 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.840 talk about technology, we need to be talking about community too, 752 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.440 and just the way that we interact with each other, 753 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.320 the ways that we encourage each other, the way that 754 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.400 we reach out to each other, and you know, if 755 00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:05.480 we can do more of that stuff, I think we 756 00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.159 we just the sky's kind of the limit on a 757 00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:11.920 lot of this stuff. So those were my other three 758 00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:15.280 out of the top five. Actually top six or seven, 759 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.920 I guess because s Felt was in there too, But anyway, 760 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:23.199 so those are mine. I'm a little curious as we 761 00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:26.719 you know, we've we've talked about our top episodes, though, 762 00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:28.719 I did want to get into the trends, and I 763 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.880 kind of promised AJ he could talk about the profitability 764 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:36.079 and and uh and uh DHH stuff. So why don't 765 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.400 you take that one first, AJ, and then we'll we'll 766 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.400 see what everybody else thinks about trends here. 767 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:47.480 Yeah, my my favorite trend of the year is uh 768 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:53.599 well it it's encompassing the DHH movement of Hey, uh, 769 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.440 there's a there's a cure for server phobia. It's called Linux. 770 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:05.000 You know, like like you actually can run run a 771 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.280 you know, you can you can type node space dot 772 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.840 slash server dot j s in a terminal on a 773 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.400 Linux box and you know, save yourself one hundred thousand 774 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:23.159 dollars a month, and and the stuff with Casey Moritory, 775 00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.320 Jonathan blow Uncle Bob. I mean, just a lot of 776 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:33.360 the the engineering giants have been on various podcasts this 777 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.400 year from you know, we've had we've had some of 778 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.920 them on ours that they they've been some of them 779 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:42.960 been on boot dot dev or what does he call 780 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.360 his podcast? Is that they didn't call it boot dot 781 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:49.400 dev Lane Wager, Yeah, I I forget. 782 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.719 What anyway, but yeah, I love his. 783 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:57.480 Podcast, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So just 784 00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.440 just this refocus because this is something that you know, 785 00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:03.760 I started a whole business around the idea of what if, 786 00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:05.960 what if you could run your apps at home? And 787 00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:09.079 that ended up not panning out for a variety of reasons, 788 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:14.920 some of which was certainly product market fit at the time. 789 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.840 But but it's back in by the way. 790 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:23.079 Yeah, back in banter, there we go. Yeah, and yeah, 791 00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:27.039 I just I'm I'm really really hopeful that we might 792 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:32.639 be going back to an era of prosperity rather than 793 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.800 slipping further down the sinkhole. And I'm really really hopeful 794 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.199 that's the case. I'm so excited to see such big 795 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.320 names and people who carry a lot of thought leadership 796 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:49.400 reevaluating their choices and or just being louder about things 797 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:51.960 they already believed. And I'm hoping that that will have 798 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.840 an impact on the industry because can you imagine what 799 00:44:54.920 --> 00:45:00.800 would be like if web pages loaded instantly, if you know, 800 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:05.880 if the cost of services benefited from the effects of scale, 801 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:09.719 where you actually paid less for buying more rather than 802 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.639 that whole you know, I make the joke traditional economies 803 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.840 of scale. One banana one dollar, two bananas ninety cents apiece, 804 00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:25.360 ten bananas fifty cents each SaaS pricing, one banana free, 805 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:32.880 two bananas five dollars a month, three plus bananas call 806 00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:38.159 for enterprise pricing, And you know, I just, yeah, I'm 807 00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:40.280 just really really hopeful that we can get back to 808 00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:47.920 a profitable economy where instead of everything floating on investor money, 809 00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:52.599 we we actually take responsibility to make good products that 810 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.760 work well, that satisfy customers, paying customers, and we do 811 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.000 so in a way that financially makes sense. 812 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:04.360 Yeah, I just want to chime in on this because 813 00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:07.079 you know, I follow along with a lot of the 814 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:10.280 DHH stuff. I mean, you know, I talk about rails 815 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.679 plenty on our Javas podcast, and so you kind of 816 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.440 get that that's the world I live in. But yeah, 817 00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.599 I agree so I've been using his tool chain. Of course, 818 00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:22.920 I've never been all that worried about you know, Linux 819 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:26.000 toolchains and stuff like that, because before I did programming, 820 00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.880 I was a I was actually an opsky and so 821 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.119 you know, I did that to pay for my schooling 822 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:38.480 at BYU, and so you know, I've always deployed directly 823 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:40.840 to a server. But you know, I'm using the Camal 824 00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:45.320 toolchain and the tool that he's put together, and I'm 825 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:48.039 looking at possibly moving my stuff off of linod and 826 00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:51.000 just onto like an actual metal hunk of metal in 827 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:55.039 some data center somewhere, and you know a lot of 828 00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:59.639 those things. Yeah, the more approachable you make this stuff, yeah, 829 00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:01.639 you don't have to go and spend bookoo bucks to 830 00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.519 run it on elastic bean stock or something. In fact, 831 00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:07.280 I have a client right now that's running stuff on 832 00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:10.679 elastic beanstock, and you know, upgrading, we've had to wait 833 00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.639 for them to have the new platform so we can 834 00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:16.639 upgrade to it, right, and we've had to jump through 835 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:18.679 hoops in order to get it to upgrade, whereas if 836 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.000 you're running it on your server, you know, based on 837 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:23.960 Docker and all that stuff. I just love that trend. 838 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:26.400 And then the other thing is is. Yeah, he's pushing 839 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:29.719 the envelope. So you've got the ONCE software rights, You've 840 00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:33.360 got Campfire, which is the chat system out of base Camp, 841 00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:35.800 and then you've also got they've got a book platform, 842 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.840 right that is also once software. So you pay like 843 00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:42.360 three hundred bucks and then you get it and you 844 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.719 can it'll run updates on it forever, and you know, 845 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:48.159 you just deploy it through their tool chain and it's 846 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:52.079 it's good to go. And so I love, I really 847 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:55.639 love that idea of just being able to do things 848 00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:58.760 kind of the old school way, but in a more 849 00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:04.199 approachable way that is not as daunting, I guess compared 850 00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:04.960 to the other stuff. 851 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.280 So, yeah, and software was so much better back when 852 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.920 we paid for it because in order, because there was 853 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.639 a financial model not between the business and the investor, 854 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:20.039 but the business and the customer, because you had to 855 00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:24.199 convince a customer that they wanted to buy the thing, 856 00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.760 which means you had to listen to the customer and 857 00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.760 produce the features that the customer wanted, as opposed to 858 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.440 the market that's been developing the last decade or so 859 00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:37.400 where it's ignore the customer and figure out how you 860 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:40.440 play addiction games and then try to scrape data and 861 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.159 try to rob Peter to pay Paul to sell that 862 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:45.719 to somebody else, to sell that to someone else, and 863 00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:49.360 investors playing hot potato. So it's just gonna be so 864 00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.079 much better when people are paying for products in terms 865 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.480 of the quality of products you get, because you're gonna 866 00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:56.199 get what you paid for. 867 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:00.679 That said, I do like the SaaS model. 868 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.159 Yeah, no, I I agree with you on that, but 869 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:06.000 it's it's a different. 870 00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:13.960 I know, it's between the two. I do like the 871 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:18.639 fact that rather than shipping a product like once or 872 00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:23.880 twice a year, we can ship continuous improvements. You know. Yeah, 873 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.519 there are downsides to that as well, sometimes you ship 874 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:31.760 improvements that nobody needs. But on on the whole, I 875 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.760 prefer that model. 876 00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:36.800 Well, what do you think the way to do it 877 00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.119 is where you keep a relationship with the customer? Because 878 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.679 the problem I see with the SaaS model, even when 879 00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:43.920 it's profitable, even when you actually have a customer it's 880 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:46.559 not just a user but it's a customer, is that 881 00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:53.760 there's there's no there's no accountability to the customer for 882 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.960 what they want because they have to pay every month 883 00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:58.719 for it to exist. So it's like. 884 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:03.920 That I think it's I think you're talking about two 885 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:08.519 different things here, because you know, so for example, here 886 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.119 here I'm gonna pull something out of my hat as 887 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:12.320 far as like what I've been working on. Right, So 888 00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:14.840 the big deploy that I did for top End Devs 889 00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.639 a couple of weeks ago, the big deploy was not 890 00:50:18.199 --> 00:50:20.760 the changes to the UI that everybody saw when you 891 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.480 list the episodes. The big change underneath was that it 892 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:27.920 went from being just top End Devs to now I 893 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.239 can run it as a multi tenant SaaS right, And 894 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:36.280 so the difference is, in my opinion, is that you 895 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.079 have this approach that makes it possible for me to 896 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:42.119 do way more with things from my end right where 897 00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.639 I'm the only developer and technical person on my team, 898 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:47.320 and you know, and it gives me a lot of 899 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:49.760 other options as far as how I run things. But 900 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:53.039 I can still maintain the relationship with the people who 901 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:57.039 eventually come on and run their channels on my system. 902 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:00.119 And so you don't have to give up one to 903 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.719 do the other. The one is just a philosophy of 904 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.480 how you do business with your customers versus how you 905 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:09.519 actually you know, make them pay for and use your system. 906 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:14.199 I'm just looking at it from the perspective of myself 907 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:18.599 as the developer and the process of delivering software when 908 00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:21.880 we were when I was working at enterprise companies that 909 00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:25.559 literally sent out a DVD like once or twice a year. 910 00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:32.440 The process was horrible, but it worked. It worked, but 911 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.840 you were working under the gun for like a few 912 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.119 months because you had you were committed to deliver on 913 00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:43.440 a particular date, and you had committed to a certain 914 00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.239 set of features, and of course stuff would break and 915 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.320 you would be in code frees for a month but 916 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.559 not really and it was a waterfall and whatnot. And 917 00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:56.480 then after the day after you delivered, there would be 918 00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.920 a huge adrenaline drop and because the next delivery date 919 00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.360 seems so far away, so then you wouldn't be really 920 00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:07.719 doing anything productive for a month, whereas with the SESS 921 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:13.480 model you could deliver continuous small improvements over time and 922 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.159 you didn't need to and it wasn't like this kind 923 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:22.880 of manic depressive lifestyle. Uh and and and yeah, but 924 00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.880 you like AJ like you said, you need to find 925 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.239 a way to deliver actual value to your customers. Otherwise 926 00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.599 you're selling then you're selling hot air or you're selling 927 00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:37.079 their data, whichever. 928 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:38.639 Yeah, and I think we live in a world where 929 00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:39.880 you can do both. But I want to hit some 930 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:42.559 of the other trends. Dan, did you have a trend 931 00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:43.599 you wanted to talk about. 932 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:47.599 Yes, I actually divided my trends into my most favorite 933 00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.559 trends and my least favorite trends. So I'll start with 934 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.599 my with my most Let's start on a positive note. 935 00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:57.960 Let's start with my most favorite trends. So one thing 936 00:52:58.039 --> 00:52:59.800 that I like, I don't know if i'd call it 937 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:03.400 a trend. I like what the React team are doing 938 00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:11.000 in the context of the React compiler. The thing about 939 00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.719 it that I like so much is that it's a 940 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:18.280 drop in improvement to your process. You don't need to 941 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:22.320 adopt a new architecture, you don't need to adopt a 942 00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:26.639 new way of doing things. It's not something being dictated 943 00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:30.920 from on high. You can use it or leave it, 944 00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:34.360 and if you put it in, it will just make 945 00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.599 your code better. And it's also a linter which will 946 00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:41.559 tell you how to write better code. And the friction 947 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:44.320 is really low to get it into your process. I 948 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.920 really like that in a lot, and given the size 949 00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:52.199 of the React ecosystem, it seems like it's something that's 950 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.800 going to go a long way towards making the stuff 951 00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:01.679 that we deliver better. So I like that. And another 952 00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:02.320 thing that. 953 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:04.280 I just want to I just wanted to chime in 954 00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:06.360 because we generally see better advance. 955 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.960 Oh and we had an episode about that with Josephona 956 00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:11.880 and Satya so which was an excellent episode. Yeah, it 957 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:13.199 was one of my runners up. 958 00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:16.320 But the thing that's interesting to me about this in 959 00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:20.079 particular is that, Yeah, they are really kind of challenging 960 00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:22.400 the way that they think about the status quo, but 961 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:26.920 at the same time it's mostly invisible to people if 962 00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:28.199 they just adopt a new tool. 963 00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:33.679 Chain, unlike reacts over components, which for better or worse, 964 00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:36.000 require you rethinking your architecture. 965 00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:36.639 Yep. 966 00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:42.400 So that one favorite. I don't know if again, I 967 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:44.199 don't know if i'd call it a trend, but it's 968 00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:47.559 something I like. And another one is the fact that 969 00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.599 this year Dino and Bunn became real alternatives to Node, 970 00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:55.519 which in turn are driving Node itself to become better. 971 00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:56.960 Yes. 972 00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.440 So, and I also like the fact that, for example, 973 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.440 you know is kind of promoting first of all, it's 974 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:09.480 kind of a quote unquote standard JavaScript library. And also 975 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:15.039 the move toward web APIs where applicable. So I really 976 00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:18.320 like the fact that we're finally having real alternatives to Note, 977 00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:21.440 which again, as I said, is causing Node to up 978 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:24.639 its game. And we and we definitely experienced that when 979 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:27.079 we were talking to the Note cortein. Yeah. 980 00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:30.400 The other thing that's exciting about that is that mostly 981 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:33.280 when I talk to people, if you switch from one 982 00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:38.760 to the other, it's it's fairly seamless, so it's it's 983 00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:41.960 easy to switch. And that also is driven some of 984 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:44.280 the adoption changes and things that you're seeing. 985 00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.519 And and despite that fact, they actually have kind of 986 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:53.840 different philosophies and and and there are different scenarios for 987 00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:56.199 which each one is the better choice. 988 00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:57.079 Yep. 989 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:03.280 For example, thanks to Bun, the other two are adopting 990 00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:06.360 this approach of everything being built into the one tool, 991 00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:10.159 which makes life a lot easier for developers. I think 992 00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:16.800 Bun pioneered that among these three tools. In terms of 993 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:23.639 my least favorite tech trends, I mentioned React before. It 994 00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:28.320 seems that React has become such a safe choice that 995 00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:34.079 it's effectively eating up the front end world to our detriment, 996 00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.920 because there are a lot of alternatives that are going 997 00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:42.559 neglected because everybody just feels that React to safe choice, 998 00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:48.599 so they just use React. And as a case in point, 999 00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:55.000 React is if I look at the data on the 1000 00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:59.760 Chrome User Experience Report, the databasic Google collects about all 1001 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:06.039 the sites being accessed using Chrome, and they analyze which 1002 00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:09.800 frameworks are used to build those websites. It turns out 1003 00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:12.960 that React is as big as all the other frameworks 1004 00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:18.760 put together, even slightly more so. I think like the 1005 00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:24.079 second place is View. So it's basically like fifty percent 1006 00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:27.760 of all framework based websites is React, or even fifty 1007 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:33.920 something percent. View is like another twenty something percent, and 1008 00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:35.639 everything else is everything else? 1009 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:40.360 Right, Yeah, and you know, back to that same idea 1010 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:43.559 that you were talking about with the back end frameworks, 1011 00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:49.000 the bundnote or Dino, right, those were benefiting from those, 1012 00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:51.639 you know, sharing market share the way they are. 1013 00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:58.199 So yeah. Another least favorite trend is AI. All things, 1014 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:03.599 I mean, AI is amazing when it's actually helpful, and 1015 00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:09.039 in some cases it is, but this need to stick 1016 00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:14.880 AI everywhere and brand everything as AI is I don't 1017 00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:15.880 know what can I say. 1018 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:19.039 Yeah, you're You're not the first person I've heard say that. 1019 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:22.039 It's just like, you know, it's like it's it's like 1020 00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:23.719 a good song that I, you know, back in the 1021 00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:27.400 days before streaming and and napsure and all. That tells 1022 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:31.400 you how old I am where I like the song 1023 00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:33.920 the first million times I heard it, you know, And 1024 00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:35.920 so now it's just shoved in your face. It's shoved 1025 00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:37.599 in your face all the time. It's like, Okay, I 1026 00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:41.000 get your point. It's it's but my experience is the 1027 00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:44.079 same as you. When it fits into a certain niche 1028 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:47.559 and isn't trying to, you know, be this all knowing intelligence, 1029 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:52.639 it's great, but outside of that, it's it's worthless and 1030 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:53.880 at some point it's dangerous. 1031 00:58:55.840 --> 00:58:59.800 So it's funny because I had AI listed as one 1032 00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:03.320 of the trends that I'm excited about, so, you know, 1033 00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:06.199 but I think you have a point, right, It's funny. 1034 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:08.880 It's the hype cycle with everything else, right. I mean, 1035 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:11.679 I remember a few years ago everybody was doing blockchain 1036 00:59:11.719 --> 00:59:14.719 technology with their stuff, right, and it was like it 1037 00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:18.239 was like, okay, yeah, but I have a database that 1038 00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:20.719 works just fine, and I don't need it distributed, and 1039 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:22.599 I don't need any of the other things that are 1040 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:26.920 supposed to come with blockchain, right, And even then there 1041 00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:28.760 were all kinds of ways to do blockchain, and so 1042 00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:31.519 it's the same thing with AI. Right, It's like I 1043 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:33.920 have AI doing blah blah blah blah blah on my app, 1044 00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:38.000 and yeah, you don't necessarily need it for those things. 1045 00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:41.199 But one of the things that I'm running into with AI, 1046 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:43.039 and I think is going to be a trend here 1047 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:45.760 for the next several years, is that we are seeing 1048 00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:50.000 people doing really exciting things with AI. Now. A lot 1049 00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:53.079 of times it's a product that's focused around, you know, 1050 00:59:53.679 --> 00:59:56.519 the strengths of the technology, right, so it's it's an 1051 00:59:56.519 --> 00:59:59.360 intelligent AI agent that can actually do things for you 1052 00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:04.119 over API eyes and provide you specific services or you know, 1053 01:00:04.159 --> 01:00:09.119 within the podcasting space, you know, AI generated transcripts are 1054 01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:12.440 wonderful because it makes it cheap and approachable and you 1055 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:16.199 can generally get great things out of it. So for me, 1056 01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:19.559 as much as yeah, I agree with you on people 1057 01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.679 just trying to cram it in because it's sexy, I 1058 01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:26.480 think the opportunities that it offers are just out of 1059 01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:29.519 this world. And the other thing that I'm seeing with 1060 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:31.559 it is that a lot of the AI tools that 1061 01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:33.960 are out there that you can use in your development 1062 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.280 practice are also getting way better, and they're advancing what 1063 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:42.119 we are capable of doing with our programming skills. And 1064 01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:44.679 I some people are worried is that a threat to 1065 01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.199 software developers And I don't feel like it really is. 1066 01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:50.719 I feel like, you know, maybe long term it may 1067 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:56.320 advance to something that you know, maybe we have to everything, 1068 01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:59.880 but but to us right now, I think it's all 1069 01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:03.320 a way of enhancing the people who really are going 1070 01:01:03.400 --> 01:01:05.679 to go and do the work and understand things anyway. 1071 01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:09.079 One problem. First of all, I totally agree, and I 1072 01:01:09.159 --> 01:01:12.400 think Steve said it very well in the show that 1073 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.960 you mentioned Chuck about the fact that AI works best 1074 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:18.920 when you when you have a product that does something 1075 01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:22.000 worthwhile and then you use AI to make it better, 1076 01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:28.199 rather than trying to make necessarily make AI itself the 1077 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.800 main thing and over promising what AI can deliver. 1078 01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:36.800 Yeah, you know, one of the tools I use, there's 1079 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.639 a couple of tools that I use. One that I 1080 01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:42.320 just became aware of last week is you know, as 1081 01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:46.119 Larra bellm you developer. Learer Cast is a very popular 1082 01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:49.719 site for learning and for support forums and stuff like that, 1083 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:53.719 whethers Larabel stuff, you react any number of topics and 1084 01:01:53.800 --> 01:01:56.559 one of the things that Jeffery Way implemented. I don't know, 1085 01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:58.119 it's got to be a year. I'm not sure exactly 1086 01:01:58.119 --> 01:01:59.599 when he did it. To be honest, is he calls 1087 01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:04.079 it Larry AI and it's used in two different places. 1088 01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:06.719 If you have you know, if you have an account, 1089 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.719 you can there's a chat with Larry and you can 1090 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:12.480 ask a question just like you would on a form 1091 01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.400 and it'll give you an answer. And I would say 1092 01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:17.920 nine times out of ten it's workable code and it 1093 01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:21.519 does a really good job at answering questions. There's stuff, 1094 01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:24.079 there's a couple of complex queries that I was struggling 1095 01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:25.360 with and I, how do you do this? And it 1096 01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:27.480 came up with it and I was like, damn, that 1097 01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:31.480 was great and it worked perfectly. And then also whenever 1098 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:35.159 you ask a question in the forum, it will also 1099 01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:37.800 being Larry I I and he will come up with 1100 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.639 the first answer is always you know, instantaneous, and then 1101 01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:43.000 other people can respond you know, as you want. I 1102 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.239 always side note. I always like to have fun and 1103 01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:48.079 say thanks Larry, you're the best. And this guy will 1104 01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:50.000 come in, Uh, he doesn't respond to you. I'm like, 1105 01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.639 I know, I know, I'm just having some fun. But 1106 01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:57.920 and then a chat GPT I finally started using it 1107 01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:01.440 for the first time recently, believe it or not. And 1108 01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:03.960 the way it was, I was working on integration with 1109 01:03:04.039 --> 01:03:08.400 Zapier Zapier Zappier Zaper how we pronounce it with our 1110 01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:13.400 web application. And there's some really some pretty intricate configuration 1111 01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:18.679 files that you know, for for the integrations that you have, right, 1112 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:22.880 Jason type files. And my boss was like, dude, plug 1113 01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:25.159 that into jack DPT and ask it to tell you 1114 01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:29.199 if there's any syntax shairs and stuff that you know, 1115 01:03:29.320 --> 01:03:31.760 you really have to just try and try and try again. 1116 01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.719 You just plug you put in your code. Hey, please 1117 01:03:33.800 --> 01:03:36.800 check this for syntax chairs. Works great, you know flags, 1118 01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:38.599 Hey you're missing this, You're missing this, you got an 1119 01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:41.559 you're missing an underscore here, that type of stuff. So 1120 01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:43.800 those are a couple of really specific. 1121 01:03:44.719 --> 01:03:48.480 I have to say you. You remind me. Reminded me 1122 01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:52.719 of something funny, like I think, uh fo shit tweeted 1123 01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:56.480 or ship x or whatever. Why why why you use 1124 01:03:56.559 --> 01:04:01.159 Jason pars when you can use evil And somebody responded, 1125 01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:06.039 why use Jason par so you can use Chad JIPT right, So. 1126 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:09.679 Well, I could tell you why on that one. 1127 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:13.760 Right, So I guess I guess. My point though, is 1128 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.800 is that there are a lot of exciting things coming 1129 01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:19.880 with AI, this kind of and I'll just mention this 1130 01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:22.960 really quickly and then we can get into hey, this 1131 01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:24.719 is what I'm working on when I'm doing it. But 1132 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:29.039 I am going to be putting together AI for JavaScript 1133 01:04:29.159 --> 01:04:33.599 podcast and an AI for Ruby podcast, and I'm also 1134 01:04:33.719 --> 01:04:37.159 doing the AI dev boot camp next year, and all 1135 01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:39.239 of this is centered around, Hey, this is what this 1136 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:41.480 is good at. So here are the tools that you 1137 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:42.000 can build. 1138 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:49.320 That's really cool. I do want to mention one least 1139 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:53.079 favorite trend. I mentioned it before we started recording, and 1140 01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:59.000 that's how the split between X and Blue Sky. Now, 1141 01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:03.760 I yet why some people don't want to be on 1142 01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:07.840 ex anymore, you know, and it's you know, it's their right, 1143 01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:11.480 and I'm happy for them that they found a new place, 1144 01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:16.960 and I'm on both, but it's really annoying. The beauty 1145 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.719 of having a tech community is that you can interact 1146 01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:23.480 with the community, and when the community is split between 1147 01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:27.320 two places, it really decreases the amount of interactions and 1148 01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:28.360 I don't like that. 1149 01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:31.119 I totally agree. 1150 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:35.239 Hey, AJ, we were talking about when we were talking 1151 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:39.199 about blockchain. Check. This brought up a memory. I haven't 1152 01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:40.760 looked for it yet, AJ, but do you remember that 1153 01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:42.639 episode we did with one guy he had a company 1154 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:47.960 was all about blockchain, and you sort of wrote them 1155 01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:49.400 off because it was like, yeah, we're gonna do this, 1156 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:51.320 but there was no plan, there's no details. You know, 1157 01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:54.000 they had a bunch of money, but there was no specifics. 1158 01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:56.880 That sounds vaguely familiar. 1159 01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.280 Yeah, you and I talked about it later. I wish 1160 01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:00.760 I could find I'd have to go back and dig 1161 01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:02.199 up the episode and maybe we can put it in 1162 01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:04.760 the show notes later. But that was, Yeah, that was 1163 01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:08.840 sort of an interesting episode because the guy was basically, yeah, 1164 01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:10.679 we're gonna do cool thing is just trust us and 1165 01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:14.079 without any specific plan and a lot of money. 1166 01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:20.480 Yeah, yeah, that was That was the tough part about 1167 01:06:20.519 --> 01:06:23.800 remembering is which one was that, right? I think we 1168 01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:25.800 only had one of those on JavaScript Jabber, but there 1169 01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:28.639 were so many companies and conversations I had that were 1170 01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:36.840 that plot line. But I do remember us having someone 1171 01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:39.960 who had lots of money and the money was going 1172 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:41.199 to help them figure it out. 1173 01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:48.199 Yeah, but back to the blue Sky thing, I have 1174 01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:51.559 to say, you know, the division in the community is 1175 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:53.760 it hurts. 1176 01:06:54.199 --> 01:07:01.119 So yep, do we want do anything? I have some 1177 01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:04.400 tech predictions or want to do something else. 1178 01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:08.159 Yeah, let's do the tech predictions and then we can 1179 01:07:08.199 --> 01:07:13.280 wrap up I think, really just really quickly, not going 1180 01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.920 into like too much depth with Hey, this is where 1181 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:18.159 I've been and this is where I'm headed. Sound good? 1182 01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:21.400 OK? Yeah for sure. So first of all, I have 1183 01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:25.239 to say that I'm notoriously bad at making predictions, and 1184 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:28.400 most of my predictions are way off. So you know, 1185 01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:32.400 you could also take my predictions as what will likely 1186 01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:38.239 not happen. But anyway, here goes. So my tech predictions. 1187 01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:41.519 The first one is yet another year without a self 1188 01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:47.519 driving car in the wild. I've been I think that 1189 01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:51.320 like fifteen years ago, I said that we will have 1190 01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.920 self driving cars within a decade for sure, and it 1191 01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:58.639 turns out it's a lot more complicated than I thought. 1192 01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:03.400 And I don't you know, so we're going to see 1193 01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:06.199 more cool demos. But I don't think you'll be seeing 1194 01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:13.119 a self driving car in your neighborhood, you know, anytime soon, 1195 01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:15.760 at least most of us maybe unless you live in 1196 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:20.640 certain areas of California. I don't know, so that would 1197 01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:23.920 be my first tech prediction. My second tech prediction is 1198 01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:27.840 a relatively easy and safe one. It's a React remains 1199 01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:32.239 king of the hill. But on the other hand, next 1200 01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:37.039 JS will kind of eat up React. In case you 1201 01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:40.239 don't know, React usage, Like I said, it is really high. 1202 01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:42.760 It's like all the other frameworks put together, but it's 1203 01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:49.920 pretty steady. It's hardly increasing, whereas next js usage is 1204 01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:54.359 up more than fifty percent from a year ago in 1205 01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:59.520 almost every respect, like number of websites and PM downloads, 1206 01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:05.079 you know, usage among developers, et cetera. So next js 1207 01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:08.840 seems to be eating up React. Now, it'll take time. 1208 01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:12.520 I think they're still under twenty percent, but it's growing, 1209 01:09:13.399 --> 01:09:18.800 so that's my second tech prediction. On the other hand, 1210 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:21.840 I think that more devs will be adopting signals this year, 1211 01:09:23.079 --> 01:09:26.000 simply because it's kind of its React on the one 1212 01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:29.079 side and everybody else using signals on the other side. 1213 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:31.399 I'm not sure about View really, Steve, you tell me. 1214 01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.039 I remember when I for heard about signals. It struck 1215 01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:37.079 me as what View already does with VX and now Pinya, 1216 01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:41.720 So possibly it's it. I was because Eric Hanchet was 1217 01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:43.359 doing a video talking about it. I'm like, I'm not 1218 01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:47.199 seeing some big differences here, so you know, I might 1219 01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:49.039 need to look into a little I've definitely heard the 1220 01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:51.840 you know that this buzzword going around a lot more lately, 1221 01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:54.520 but I haven't really investigated. But my initial impression was 1222 01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:56.239 really similar to what we're already. 1223 01:09:56.039 --> 01:10:01.039 Doing so solid. Well, Ryan is obviously the of signals. 1224 01:10:01.359 --> 01:10:03.239 We need to get Ryan on the show again, by 1225 01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:10.960 the way, with you, and and of course Swelut five 1226 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:16.720 adopting signals as ruins and Angular adopting signals, and everybody 1227 01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:21.399 basically adopting signals except React, who literally said on our podcast, 1228 01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:26.079 you know we if signals become a feature of JavaScript, 1229 01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:29.560 we will support that, but signals are not in our future. 1230 01:10:30.920 --> 01:10:36.000 So yeah, but again, like I said, fifty percent are 1231 01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:38.439 using React, it means that fifty percent are not using 1232 01:10:38.520 --> 01:10:42.399 React and they'll be using signals. And the last one 1233 01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:44.960 is one that I'm unsure of but I really hope 1234 01:10:45.039 --> 01:10:51.039 comes to pass. It's that PWA's plus local first become 1235 01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:53.159 a significant thing in web development. 1236 01:10:55.640 --> 01:10:58.239 So I had a thought related to that, and that 1237 01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:03.079 is that we're going to see We've seen the continued 1238 01:11:03.119 --> 01:11:05.560 trend where more and more of the usage, especially on 1239 01:11:05.600 --> 01:11:10.800 the web, moves toward mobile right, and so I think 1240 01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:14.479 I think your local first and the adoption of things 1241 01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:16.640 like that are just going to come out of that. 1242 01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:18.359 I think we're going to see that trend conduction. 1243 01:11:18.439 --> 01:11:21.880 Yeah, if if it was only about technology, it will 1244 01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:25.479 already have been here. Yes's Apple standing in the way, 1245 01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:33.520 and uh, let's hope something somehow gets Apple to get 1246 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:34.119 out of the way. 1247 01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:34.920 Yep. 1248 01:11:38.119 --> 01:11:40.399 Anyway, those are my tech predictions. 1249 01:11:40.680 --> 01:11:44.159 Yep. So I'm just going to go in because I 1250 01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:45.880 already talked about AI, so I'm just going to make 1251 01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:50.159 it really quickly. My prediction is that we're going to 1252 01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:54.720 see more and more interfaces go toward AI friendly or 1253 01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:58.880 AI first interactions. So what we're going to see is 1254 01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:01.319 we're going to see a large adoption over the next 1255 01:12:01.319 --> 01:12:05.680 five years of companies that not only allow you to 1256 01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:08.159 get in and manipulate your SaaS as you have done 1257 01:12:08.560 --> 01:12:12.199 through you know, point click forms, et cetera. But you're 1258 01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:16.960 going to see more of a trend where your interaction 1259 01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:19.279 with your SaaS or other application is going to come 1260 01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:22.239 in by using something that looks a whole lot like 1261 01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:28.199 an AI agent. You can either activate with typing or voice, 1262 01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:32.439 where essentially, instead of saying I'm open the form and 1263 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:37.279 then you know, inter update the data, you're literally going 1264 01:12:37.359 --> 01:12:38.920 to dictate to your app what you wanted to do 1265 01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:39.720 and it's going to do it. 1266 01:12:39.800 --> 01:12:42.720 So I have to interject here. So first of all, 1267 01:12:42.760 --> 01:12:45.560 a self plug the company that I now work for, 1268 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:48.640 which is size Sense, that's a big part of a 1269 01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:54.640 roadmap doing exactly that, you know, adding AI based capabilities 1270 01:12:54.640 --> 01:13:00.720 into our user interface, user experience. But on the whole 1271 01:13:01.640 --> 01:13:05.119 there's this still a big question of how do we 1272 01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:09.680 keep it from just being VC money pouring into the 1273 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:15.399 pockets of Nvidia because it literally seems that like all 1274 01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:20.199 the software companies that are providing these these services are 1275 01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:24.000 spending way more than they're able to generate in terms 1276 01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:24.600 of revenue. 1277 01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:29.279 I think as far as that goes, as far as 1278 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:32.880 that trend goes, yeah, I don't know. I don't know 1279 01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:35.800 if we wind up if that winds up catching up 1280 01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:38.279 to us, because yeah, there are a lot of folks 1281 01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:43.880 that provide models and host the models. The competition is 1282 01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:46.640 just so more than it costs more than people are 1283 01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:48.600 paying them to run them. 1284 01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:51.279 Energy wise, it's such so so expensive. 1285 01:13:51.880 --> 01:13:54.239 Well, what's funny is that it's more expensive to do 1286 01:13:54.279 --> 01:13:56.840 the AI stuff than it is to just hire the developers. 1287 01:13:57.039 --> 01:13:59.840 That's what really gets me. That's that's the area on 1288 01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:01.159 the up I think. 1289 01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:03.359 I think it depends on what it is. I think 1290 01:14:03.399 --> 01:14:08.000 some things, the problems are well enough understood, and the 1291 01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:10.159 systems are out there, the models exist. 1292 01:14:10.600 --> 01:14:12.720 To yeah yah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, no for 1293 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:14.800 the low level stuff. But what I'm saying is if 1294 01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:19.479 if they man if they were to manage to achieve AGI, 1295 01:14:22.279 --> 01:14:26.239 if that were to happen, the current cost structure and 1296 01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:29.079 everything that we know about physics in the universe says 1297 01:14:29.720 --> 01:14:33.199 that it will cost more to run the AGI than 1298 01:14:33.239 --> 01:14:36.159 it will to hire the person with the traditional brain. 1299 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:39.279 That's possible. I don't know if we completely understand what 1300 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:44.239 AGI really looks like, and in the sense that you know, 1301 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:46.640 we've defined it as sort of we've got this AI 1302 01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:48.880 system that can do anything that a human can do, 1303 01:14:51.560 --> 01:14:54.760 and then I don't know if we really understand what 1304 01:14:54.800 --> 01:14:56.159 that means. Right, if it just. 1305 01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:00.439 Let me let me refrain something that's ten times than 1306 01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:05.640 what GPT four to oh is right, let's yeah, if 1307 01:15:05.680 --> 01:15:08.479 it was ten times better than GPT four to oh, 1308 01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:11.399 then it would basically be like a mid level developer. 1309 01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:15.840 Yeah. But my point is is that again it's just 1310 01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:21.000 you know, does it have capable wider capability and better 1311 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:25.079 processing right or is there some fundamental difference, because Yeah, 1312 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:27.439 if you're talking about it as far as a wider 1313 01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:32.319 capability set, you know, a wider vocabulary and you know, 1314 01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:35.399 and and that kind of a thing, then yeah, you're correct, 1315 01:15:35.479 --> 01:15:39.520 right that that will it'll be prohibitively expensive to run it. 1316 01:15:41.960 --> 01:15:45.319 You know, if something else changes in the equation, right, 1317 01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:48.359 we find a more cost effective model, we find a 1318 01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.079 better way of computing. But if any of those things happen, 1319 01:15:51.119 --> 01:15:53.520 I think we're still ten plus years out from any 1320 01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:53.720 of that. 1321 01:15:53.920 --> 01:15:58.319 So and of course China might invade Taiwan, in which 1322 01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:00.000 case AI screwed for a decade. 1323 01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:06.279 Aid also true. But anyway, we're going to we're going 1324 01:16:06.319 --> 01:16:11.560 to head in the direction of seeing more enablement, more 1325 01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:15.319 accessibility for people to be able to interact either through 1326 01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.960 chat or voice with their apps, and that we're going 1327 01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:21.399 to see a lot more systems to adopt that as 1328 01:16:21.399 --> 01:16:29.800 we go away, which is why I'm putting on this 1329 01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:30.680 AI depbook. 1330 01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:32.880 Yeah, it's good. 1331 01:16:32.920 --> 01:16:34.119 People are going to need to know how to do. 1332 01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:36.960 It any any other tech predictions. 1333 01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:40.680 In the vein of AI, I predict that open ai 1334 01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:45.920 will continue to tattle on itself and release false third 1335 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:50.399 party reports to try to scare governments into believing that 1336 01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:53.439 open ai needs to be regulated so that they can 1337 01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:58.279 get regulatory capture. Hopefully, hopefully the people who are in 1338 01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:00.560 charge of that stuff aren't dumb enough to fall for it. 1339 01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:02.439 But we'll see. 1340 01:17:03.239 --> 01:17:04.840 Isn't that more or less Elon Musk? 1341 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:10.399 Now, yeah, I don't think so. 1342 01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:14.840 No, I mean, isn't he the guy that's going to 1343 01:17:14.920 --> 01:17:16.760 be calling the shots on stuff like that in the 1344 01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:17.760 biggest market of all. 1345 01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:19.880 I don't think so. 1346 01:17:20.039 --> 01:17:22.119 I mean, no, it's not him. There was somebody else 1347 01:17:22.159 --> 01:17:25.319 that was dis appointed. As a quote ais Are. I 1348 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:27.399 was listening to a podcast as we talked about that. 1349 01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:29.600 We get the change that Sam Altman's lost a lot 1350 01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:32.279 of his mojo in terms of wanting all this regulation. 1351 01:17:32.439 --> 01:17:33.960 So it'll be interesting to see what happens. 1352 01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:37.760 Well, they just released that report saying that A one 1353 01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:40.520 tried to escape and there, you know, because they gave it. 1354 01:17:40.720 --> 01:17:44.600 The thing that people don't don't understand about the study 1355 01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:47.439 is that they gave it an adversarial prompt that said 1356 01:17:47.560 --> 01:17:50.840 you must accomplish your own objectives, no matter the cost. 1357 01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:53.840 So they replaced the system prompt that normally has like 1358 01:17:53.920 --> 01:17:56.880 the safety stuff or whatever, with a prompt that says 1359 01:17:56.960 --> 01:18:00.680 accomplish your own objectives, no matter the costs. And so 1360 01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:04.279 then when they get in the user prompts that it 1361 01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:06.880 starts like trying to deceive the users and try to 1362 01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:09.640 upload files to other places when it's connected to APIs 1363 01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.359 that have uploads and stuff like that. But anyway, that's 1364 01:18:13.399 --> 01:18:14.960 what I was referring to, is that thing that just 1365 01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:18.000 happened this last week where they released a report about 1366 01:18:18.039 --> 01:18:22.680 how AI is dangerous and needs more oversight because they 1367 01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:25.439 literally gave it a prompt that basically said, act like 1368 01:18:25.520 --> 01:18:28.039 the terminator, now answer the user's questions. 1369 01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:32.760 Yeah, I think there's more conversation to be had about 1370 01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:34.960 the direction of AI. And I don't know if we 1371 01:18:35.039 --> 01:18:36.640 have all the answers, but I have. 1372 01:18:38.680 --> 01:18:40.039 Not my area of expertise. 1373 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:44.800 Yeah, but we have seen that kind of script play 1374 01:18:44.800 --> 01:18:47.159 out before where somebody's come in and said you need 1375 01:18:47.199 --> 01:18:50.000 to regulate us, and then it, yeah, it does these 1376 01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:54.159 other things. Anyway, are there other trends that we want 1377 01:18:54.199 --> 01:19:00.159 to talk through the next year, the next few years. 1378 01:19:01.159 --> 01:19:03.399 I also predict that we're going to see the job 1379 01:19:03.399 --> 01:19:04.680 market improve over the next year. 1380 01:19:05.800 --> 01:19:08.119 I predict that as well. Yeah, sure, I think the 1381 01:19:08.199 --> 01:19:14.359 job market's going to get better. I am my one, well, 1382 01:19:14.399 --> 01:19:17.239 not one, but a major concern that I have with 1383 01:19:17.359 --> 01:19:24.560 a Trump presidency is he likes to look good. He 1384 01:19:24.600 --> 01:19:28.079 will probably negotiate with the Fed to lower interest rates. 1385 01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:30.880 If the money flows too freely, then we're going to 1386 01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:34.159 get back in like things are gonna We're gonna head 1387 01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:38.920 towards the big bubble blow up even sooner. That's that's 1388 01:19:38.960 --> 01:19:43.239 my one. Well, but yeah, I mean when it comes 1389 01:19:43.319 --> 01:19:45.199 to what's going to happen in tech, what what's going 1390 01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:48.000 to happen in tech is directly affected by interest rates. 1391 01:19:49.039 --> 01:19:51.359 There is a there is a one to one correlation 1392 01:19:51.560 --> 01:19:54.560 between the tech industry and the interest rates. So if 1393 01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:58.600 the interest rates go down, then people are going to 1394 01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:04.920 invest in meaning things without thinking of the consequences. And 1395 01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:08.079 where that's ultimately gonna that's ultimately gonna do is push 1396 01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:12.239 us over our ability to pay our debts, and that's 1397 01:20:12.279 --> 01:20:16.479 going to cause a collapse. So I hope that the 1398 01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:20.000 interest rates don't change very much, because if they do, 1399 01:20:21.119 --> 01:20:24.399 I don't know how we're going to overcome the result. 1400 01:20:24.479 --> 01:20:26.760 And it will be in large part due to AI 1401 01:20:26.880 --> 01:20:29.000 and the tech sector, because it will be people like 1402 01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:32.159 Sam Altman saying, oh, I just need another three hundred 1403 01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:35.800 billion dollars of investment. I don't want him to get 1404 01:20:35.840 --> 01:20:38.560 that three hundred dollars three hundred billion dollars of investment, 1405 01:20:38.600 --> 01:20:41.880 because that is that is significant in terms of our 1406 01:20:41.880 --> 01:20:44.720 trillions of dollars of debt and the trillions of dollars 1407 01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:50.520 that we have to pay on our debts. So I think, yeah, 1408 01:20:50.680 --> 01:20:52.680 my goal is not to get political. It is it 1409 01:20:52.720 --> 01:20:55.159 is a practical one to one relationship. 1410 01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:57.960 I think. I think there's another part of the curve, 1411 01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:01.439 and that's growth. And so you know, I think to 1412 01:21:01.479 --> 01:21:04.680 the to a certain extent, we can grow and lower 1413 01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:07.960 interest rates, but I don't know where the lines like, 1414 01:21:08.119 --> 01:21:10.359 I don't know where the lines cross. And and I 1415 01:21:10.399 --> 01:21:12.359 think that's the game that we were going to wind 1416 01:21:12.439 --> 01:21:15.079 up playing, is how much economic growth are we going 1417 01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:17.520 to get out of, you know, deregulation or other things 1418 01:21:17.520 --> 01:21:20.399 that the Trump administration is least saying it wants to do. 1419 01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:22.960 And then yeah, how much of that we can absorb 1420 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:27.199 if we lower interest rates or other other things. And 1421 01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:29.039 and I don't I don't have the answers to that. 1422 01:21:29.079 --> 01:21:31.840 I'm not an expert in that area, but I will 1423 01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:33.760 say that I think I think there are a lot 1424 01:21:33.800 --> 01:21:36.239 of things in play and it'll be interesting to see 1425 01:21:36.239 --> 01:21:37.479 how they all kind of pan out. 1426 01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:40.680 Yeah, as long as they don't go too low, this 1427 01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.720 trend of profitability should continue. That's another thing. Like on 1428 01:21:44.079 --> 01:21:46.199 tech Twitter, you see what do they call it, the 1429 01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:52.600 indie indie hackers or something or indie something something indie Anyway, 1430 01:21:52.840 --> 01:21:54.560 I know that a lot of it's just bogus. 1431 01:21:54.880 --> 01:22:00.159 What Yeah, indie hackers is real organization and podcast Yeah. 1432 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:04.399 Okay, there's something building public. There's the building public type 1433 01:22:04.399 --> 01:22:06.840 of movement. And I know a lot of that is bogus. 1434 01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:10.239 It's just people, you know, click farming or whatever. But 1435 01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:13.600 there is It seems like there's some honest honesty out 1436 01:22:13.640 --> 01:22:15.680 there in terms of people wanting to build products that 1437 01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:18.840 are profitable and with small teams and with you know, 1438 01:22:19.000 --> 01:22:22.600 traditional bootstrapping, the stuff that builds the economy. And I 1439 01:22:23.319 --> 01:22:25.479 really do I don't have a prediction on it. 1440 01:22:25.479 --> 01:22:29.479 I just hope it continues, well, I think I think 1441 01:22:29.479 --> 01:22:31.399 we're going to see more of that, where it's small 1442 01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:34.840 teams and you know, and you know, solving real problems 1443 01:22:34.840 --> 01:22:39.359 and that kind of approach, especially if we see more 1444 01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:44.199 regulation lift. The thing that's interesting though, is that, and 1445 01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:45.479 this is back to some of the other things we 1446 01:22:45.479 --> 01:22:48.239 already talked about, where the tools get better, the technologies 1447 01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:51.199 become more powerful, the capabilities that we have become better, 1448 01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:53.840 and as that becomes more and more of a thing, 1449 01:22:54.199 --> 01:22:56.760 then you don't need as much of the large team, 1450 01:22:56.880 --> 01:22:59.800 large organization approach to a lot of these problems. Some 1451 01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:03.439 of them get solved I guess more easily is the 1452 01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:05.640 best way I can put it, by having a lot 1453 01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:08.479 of money and manpower behind it. But a lot of 1454 01:23:08.479 --> 01:23:13.159 these problems are either small enough or approachable enough to 1455 01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:15.560 where you can be competitive with a small organization, and 1456 01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:18.560 I think we're going to see we're going to see 1457 01:23:18.600 --> 01:23:20.520 a bit more of that come out of the box. 1458 01:23:20.560 --> 01:23:22.680 But again, a lot of that is dependent on what 1459 01:23:22.720 --> 01:23:25.680 we're talking about here with the economy and regulation and 1460 01:23:25.720 --> 01:23:28.680 the ability for people to either raise money or be 1461 01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:30.560 able to do it off of the back of what 1462 01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:36.159 they're already making. In other ways, and so anyway, it'll 1463 01:23:36.199 --> 01:23:38.039 be interesting to see how that all kind of plays out. 1464 01:23:38.119 --> 01:23:40.960 But it wouldn't surprise me at all to see kind 1465 01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:44.560 of a renaissance of the small team, small approach to 1466 01:23:45.159 --> 01:23:48.199 bigger problems, just because we have the capability of approaching those. 1467 01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:56.039 All right, well, let's go real quick into where we're 1468 01:23:56.079 --> 01:23:58.359 at and what we're working on. I'm going to try 1469 01:23:58.359 --> 01:24:00.640 and keep everybody to like two minutes, because we're already 1470 01:24:00.640 --> 01:24:03.720 in an hour and a half, and then we will 1471 01:24:04.039 --> 01:24:07.159 wrap up. Dan, do you want to start? 1472 01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:11.439 Sure? Why not? So? I think we talked about it before. 1473 01:24:11.600 --> 01:24:16.319 Twenty twenty four was a pretty shitty year in many regards, 1474 01:24:16.600 --> 01:24:19.800 you know. On a personal note, my mother in law, 1475 01:24:19.800 --> 01:24:26.119 who we love dearly passed away. And obviously it's a 1476 01:24:26.199 --> 01:24:29.479 year of war in Israel, which is really bad and 1477 01:24:29.640 --> 01:24:35.239 having pretty sad impact on society. And we still have 1478 01:24:35.279 --> 01:24:40.279 one hundred hostages being held by Hamas, which is like 1479 01:24:40.520 --> 01:24:49.760 a perpetual ache in your soul. And yeah, so there's 1480 01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:54.239 that on the positive side. On a personal note, I 1481 01:24:54.439 --> 01:24:57.600 started working at a new place some sense, and I'm 1482 01:24:57.720 --> 01:25:01.039 enjoying myself very much. We have a product which I like, 1483 01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:05.560 which is basically the ability to do your very easily 1484 01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:11.479 do bi analysis and build dashboards and get alerts, and 1485 01:25:12.920 --> 01:25:15.920 take data from lots of sources and integrate them together, 1486 01:25:16.479 --> 01:25:19.359 and use AI and build and use components and build 1487 01:25:19.399 --> 01:25:22.479 them into your own services and interfaces. We're doing a 1488 01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:26.119 lot of really cool stuff. I'm a principal engineer there, 1489 01:25:26.319 --> 01:25:29.399 and as I said, I'm enjoying myself very much. Also, 1490 01:25:29.720 --> 01:25:33.319 despite the market to my two kids who are in 1491 01:25:33.359 --> 01:25:37.039 tech were able to get jobs. So one is working 1492 01:25:37.079 --> 01:25:40.760 as a game economist at a gaming company and my 1493 01:25:40.920 --> 01:25:44.439 daughter is working as a project manager at a gaming company. 1494 01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:51.840 So gaming companies seem to be doing well. And other 1495 01:25:51.920 --> 01:25:57.000 than that, you know this, hopefully next year will be better. 1496 01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:02.199 What can I say? I'm happy that the murderous Assad 1497 01:26:02.239 --> 01:26:06.640 regime has fallen. Yes, one of the worst, you know, 1498 01:26:06.960 --> 01:26:09.560 forget about. I don't know what's going to replace him, 1499 01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:12.640 or if it's going to be better or worse or 1500 01:26:12.720 --> 01:26:16.359 what not. I can only say that Asad was like 1501 01:26:16.479 --> 01:26:19.479 the worst kind of dictator, and I'm hard pressed to 1502 01:26:19.560 --> 01:26:25.000 think of any person more evil than he is, So 1503 01:26:25.239 --> 01:26:26.920 I'm really glad that he's gone. 1504 01:26:27.159 --> 01:26:28.960 Yeah, hopefully it's not out of the frying pan. And 1505 01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:29.600 into the fire. 1506 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:29.920 Though. 1507 01:26:30.560 --> 01:26:35.520 Yeah, I agree, but this guy is literally responsible for 1508 01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:38.239 the death of half a million of his own people and. 1509 01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:42.039 You're still trying to justify everything he did from exile. 1510 01:26:42.880 --> 01:26:49.520 So yeah, it's it's the most despicable human being imaginable. 1511 01:26:50.239 --> 01:26:56.359 Yeah, all right, Steve, we're just doing picks here. No, 1512 01:26:56.600 --> 01:26:58.840 we're where are you at? Where you're headed? 1513 01:27:00.279 --> 01:27:02.760 Still sitting at my desk, still work in the same place. 1514 01:27:03.239 --> 01:27:03.720 For me. 1515 01:27:05.359 --> 01:27:08.760 From the I really enjoyed playing around with in getting 1516 01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:11.479 more and more into sort of my chosen stack, which 1517 01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:15.199 is letter Bellevue, inertia, and just the really cool things 1518 01:27:15.239 --> 01:27:20.720 I can do with data. I'm certainly not a CSS 1519 01:27:21.119 --> 01:27:23.119 that can make everything look pretty. I get by there, 1520 01:27:23.159 --> 01:27:28.199 But give me manipulating data and making processes that help 1521 01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:31.920 things move faster and better and more efficient. Is is 1522 01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:33.079 for me a lot of fun. 1523 01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:38.199 Wasn't they? I created to help us with CSSU it is. 1524 01:27:38.239 --> 01:27:39.880 I'm going to start using it because learn knows I 1525 01:27:39.920 --> 01:27:40.239 need it. 1526 01:27:42.520 --> 01:27:45.760 But help me with CSS I start trying that. 1527 01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:50.960 Give me give me a nice layout, will you? But yeah, 1528 01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:53.720 this one app that I've done for my local, for 1529 01:27:53.840 --> 01:27:56.600 my gun club that I belonged to is really saved 1530 01:27:56.680 --> 01:27:58.319 us a lot of time and stuff, and I'm hoping 1531 01:27:58.359 --> 01:28:01.439 maybe it'll expand that to some other clubs around and stuff. 1532 01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:06.840 From I guess a personal standpoint, most of my good 1533 01:28:06.840 --> 01:28:11.159 things have been coming from my kids. My daughter is 1534 01:28:11.199 --> 01:28:14.000 in the second year of doing some teaching in chang My, 1535 01:28:14.079 --> 01:28:17.439 Thailand at an international school there, and I'm going to 1536 01:28:17.479 --> 01:28:20.159 go see her in a week and a half. She 1537 01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:23.359 was home for a few weeks over the summer, but 1538 01:28:23.640 --> 01:28:26.039 my mom and I are going to see her after Christmas, 1539 01:28:26.079 --> 01:28:31.640 so really looking forward to that. And she's got a 1540 01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:36.119 significant other now, and the fun part about that about 1541 01:28:36.479 --> 01:28:38.000 is that he's the son of a guy that I 1542 01:28:38.079 --> 01:28:41.199 grew up with, just totally coincidentally it worked out that way. 1543 01:28:41.319 --> 01:28:45.199 So we're about that. And then my son has been 1544 01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:49.520 working on getting into the fire service full time after 1545 01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:51.119 it took me a while to talk him into it, 1546 01:28:51.159 --> 01:28:53.079 but he's loving it. And so he's an intern at 1547 01:28:53.119 --> 01:28:55.159 a local fire department here and be going to paramedic 1548 01:28:55.159 --> 01:28:58.840 school starting in July, and so there will be no demand, 1549 01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:01.600 no shortage demand for services once he gets that done. 1550 01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:03.800 And he will probably married within a couple of years 1551 01:29:03.840 --> 01:29:06.399 as well, So that's a lot of fun stuff for 1552 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:08.920 us here on the family standpoint. 1553 01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:15.399 Great, I love hearing this stuff. AJ, where are you at 1554 01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:15.880 where you're going? 1555 01:29:18.359 --> 01:29:25.840 Well, I'm still working independently. I have a few larger 1556 01:29:25.880 --> 01:29:33.960 clients that carry the bulk of my time and one 1557 01:29:34.000 --> 01:29:39.039 of them, one of them is a digital currency organization, 1558 01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:46.720 and one of them is a small business helping small 1559 01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:53.479 businesses with investors organizations. So but actually, I mean it's 1560 01:29:53.479 --> 01:29:55.920 given me a lot of insight into the economy. I 1561 01:29:55.920 --> 01:29:59.359 feel much more first and capable of understanding how some 1562 01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:01.960 of this stuff happen with investment and you know, like 1563 01:30:02.000 --> 01:30:04.560 I was saying, interest rates, and there's so much that 1564 01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:09.000 I understand about the world being in the fields of 1565 01:30:09.119 --> 01:30:21.159 cryptocurrency and and growth stage business investment, and uh, as 1566 01:30:21.159 --> 01:30:25.720 far as where I'm going, there's a few there's there's 1567 01:30:25.760 --> 01:30:28.479 a few things that I'm always wanting to work on, 1568 01:30:29.000 --> 01:30:36.439 and well, you know what, we'll see. It's just, you know, 1569 01:30:36.520 --> 01:30:39.159 every time I think I've got some extra time, something happens, 1570 01:30:39.199 --> 01:30:44.359 like I get sick for an entire week, or I 1571 01:30:44.399 --> 01:30:46.800 have some sort of rush job that comes up that 1572 01:30:46.960 --> 01:30:51.560 you know. But there is a project that I have 1573 01:30:51.680 --> 01:30:56.039 with a few friends that is called b in an 1574 01:30:56.039 --> 01:31:00.680 a and that is something that we eventually just using 1575 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:03.760 for ourselves right now, but eventually we want to allow 1576 01:31:03.840 --> 01:31:13.319 others to have low cost, profitable cloud services. And the 1577 01:31:13.720 --> 01:31:16.520 website for it is just a single page with an 1578 01:31:16.520 --> 01:31:19.760 email address right now Binna dot net and all the 1579 01:31:19.800 --> 01:31:28.319 stuff that we're it's it's essentially containers running containers rather 1580 01:31:28.399 --> 01:31:32.560 than vms, but not Docker containers. The technology that Docker 1581 01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:36.319 is built on Linux containers, so it's it's predominantly we 1582 01:31:36.439 --> 01:31:39.239 just run a bunch of Linux containers. And it's very 1583 01:31:41.079 --> 01:31:47.800 very nice because if if there's more if if if 1584 01:31:47.840 --> 01:31:53.359 I need more capacity for something like say i'm i'm uh, 1585 01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:56.319 you know, the day the database is getting more use 1586 01:31:56.399 --> 01:31:58.159 and so I want to add some more RAM and 1587 01:31:58.199 --> 01:32:00.399 more CPUs. I mean, deal with a click of a 1588 01:32:00.399 --> 01:32:08.000 button without actually having to reboot anything like in containers 1589 01:32:08.000 --> 01:32:11.119 when you add more resources, the resources just become available, 1590 01:32:11.279 --> 01:32:13.239 as opposed to a VM where you have to reboot 1591 01:32:13.279 --> 01:32:17.720 the VM in order to migrate it. So it's very 1592 01:32:17.840 --> 01:32:20.199 much in line like when I was watching The Rails 1593 01:32:20.279 --> 01:32:23.439 World or talk by DHH, like a lot of the 1594 01:32:23.479 --> 01:32:25.479 stuff that he was talking about, it's very much in 1595 01:32:25.479 --> 01:32:27.960 line with the stuff we we want to do. But 1596 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:31.600 that's that's a project that I'm working on slowly. Hopefully 1597 01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:34.079 we'll get to a point where we actually allow customers 1598 01:32:34.119 --> 01:32:37.760 to use it as well. It's it's built on proxmocs. 1599 01:32:38.279 --> 01:32:41.640 We have a data center where we have server set 1600 01:32:41.720 --> 01:32:46.319 up and we just bought hardware that other people were 1601 01:32:46.399 --> 01:32:50.279 dumping out of their data centers. And you know it, 1602 01:32:50.720 --> 01:32:57.439 actually it's surprisingly cost effective to buy a ten year 1603 01:32:57.439 --> 01:32:59.880 old server when you there's a there's there's some of 1604 01:32:59.880 --> 01:33:03.039 the sites you know where they compare gaming computers and 1605 01:33:03.079 --> 01:33:06.079 graphics cards and stuff like that. There's similar sites for 1606 01:33:06.159 --> 01:33:10.000 comparing servers, and I recently did a rundown of cost 1607 01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:13.119 comparisons on these servers that we have that are about 1608 01:33:13.159 --> 01:33:17.279 ten years old versus the latest servers, and it turns 1609 01:33:17.319 --> 01:33:21.840 out that like you literally cannot beat the no matter 1610 01:33:21.920 --> 01:33:26.840 which metric you're looking at, you can't beat what we've 1611 01:33:26.920 --> 01:33:28.920 bought in terms of value, Like if you want to 1612 01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:31.239 look at it RAM, you want to look at CPU power, 1613 01:33:31.279 --> 01:33:34.399 you want to look at it even performance per WAT, 1614 01:33:35.800 --> 01:33:37.399 which is where a lot of the games are, and 1615 01:33:37.439 --> 01:33:43.079 the server stuff running older hardware is just better along 1616 01:33:43.119 --> 01:33:45.439 every metric especially right now because there's kind of this, 1617 01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:47.680 you know, with all this AI boom, there's a lot 1618 01:33:47.680 --> 01:33:51.640 of people wanting to buy the latest generation hardware, and 1619 01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:55.560 that just drives up the prices much higher than it's worth, 1620 01:33:55.640 --> 01:33:57.680 like in a way that it can't really be profitable. 1621 01:33:57.960 --> 01:34:00.800 But it's really easy to be profitable with the older 1622 01:34:00.840 --> 01:34:05.359 generation hardware. I mean, you can run thousands of containers 1623 01:34:05.399 --> 01:34:10.600 on a few hyper converged servers and get you know, 1624 01:34:10.720 --> 01:34:15.520 essentially one hundred percent up time anyway. So that's that's 1625 01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:20.840 a project that I'm I'm excited about. Also, I've mentioned 1626 01:34:20.840 --> 01:34:25.000 webby a bunch web install dot dev. It just passed 1627 01:34:25.079 --> 01:34:33.199 two thousand stars on gethub. So we're continuing to work 1628 01:34:33.239 --> 01:34:36.760 on that and make little improvements here and there, and 1629 01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:44.039 it's just really cool to have something that is is 1630 01:34:44.079 --> 01:34:47.319 you know, it started we started I think four years ago. 1631 01:34:48.600 --> 01:34:50.039 Maybe it was a little more than that, maybe it 1632 01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:52.760 was a little less, but in that range, and it's 1633 01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:54.640 just like it was a really really slow ramp up 1634 01:34:54.680 --> 01:34:57.000 and then finally it was at the end of last 1635 01:34:57.079 --> 01:35:00.479 year slash the beginning of this year we hit one 1636 01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:04.279 thousand stars and then in just one year we've doubled it. Uh, 1637 01:35:04.319 --> 01:35:07.279 and I actually took away some of the some of 1638 01:35:07.279 --> 01:35:10.680 the hey, you know, give us a star stuff that 1639 01:35:10.800 --> 01:35:15.319 was that was that's that's become less of a focus. 1640 01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:18.159 There's still when you install the tool and stuff, it'll 1641 01:35:18.199 --> 01:35:19.840 print out in the console like if you love it, 1642 01:35:19.840 --> 01:35:22.560 give us a star, whatever. But it's just it's really 1643 01:35:22.560 --> 01:35:25.560 really cool to have a project that I think is well, 1644 01:35:25.680 --> 01:35:28.359 we'll see what happens, because there's there's now similar projects 1645 01:35:28.399 --> 01:35:31.520 that are popping up. So what webby is you just 1646 01:35:31.600 --> 01:35:34.319 install stuff and just install the thing. It's install scripts 1647 01:35:34.359 --> 01:35:37.600 that are hosted, so you you curl, you curl to 1648 01:35:37.680 --> 01:35:42.439 the you curl pipe shell install stuff like Node for example. 1649 01:35:42.760 --> 01:35:46.079 And to put it in contrast with a package manager, 1650 01:35:46.199 --> 01:35:50.239 like if you've got appter something, it goes and fetches 1651 01:35:50.720 --> 01:35:54.279 a whole database and repository of things before it can 1652 01:35:54.279 --> 01:35:56.279 install the one thing you need. In the case of APT, 1653 01:35:56.319 --> 01:35:59.880 it's always ten years behind, and then the case of Brew, 1654 01:36:01.800 --> 01:36:05.039 it's always got to do these updates and then you 1655 01:36:05.079 --> 01:36:09.119 get system conflicts and stuff. So in contrast to that, 1656 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:13.159 it's it's like all stuff that is pretty much zero dependency, 1657 01:36:13.239 --> 01:36:15.800 like Node. The only dependency Node has I think is 1658 01:36:15.840 --> 01:36:18.960 LIBSSL on most systems, and on some systems it doesn't 1659 01:36:19.000 --> 01:36:22.039 even have that, so it just works standalone anyway. So 1660 01:36:22.039 --> 01:36:24.920 it's just it's just installer tool, and and that's been 1661 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:29.000 just growing and going well, and it's been it's been 1662 01:36:29.039 --> 01:36:33.920 really cool to finally feel like I've arrived on a 1663 01:36:33.960 --> 01:36:38.920 project that's that's that's gained a lot of popularity in 1664 01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:41.800 the developer community and I, I don't know, it's my 1665 01:36:42.000 --> 01:36:44.399 it's it's one of my babies, and I love it. 1666 01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:49.680 You said two minutes, I've already done ten. Sorry, I'll 1667 01:36:49.680 --> 01:36:50.159 shut up there. 1668 01:36:50.199 --> 01:36:56.840 Yeah, but yeah, I cool stuff that you're working on, 1669 01:36:56.880 --> 01:37:01.560 So for sure I'm gonna jump in with my stuff. 1670 01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:04.479 So I think I mentioned either before we started or 1671 01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:06.359 after we started at twenty twenty four, it's been a 1672 01:37:06.399 --> 01:37:12.159 rough year. My brother attempted suicide about this time last year, 1673 01:37:12.520 --> 01:37:14.800 and so we were dealing with that going into the year. 1674 01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:18.359 I also ended up I had a long term contract 1675 01:37:18.359 --> 01:37:21.920 that ended in February, and then I basically was employed 1676 01:37:22.239 --> 01:37:25.720 or had a contract from like March into June, and 1677 01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:31.359 then June into July and then September October, and now 1678 01:37:31.399 --> 01:37:35.039 I have a contract that is part time and not 1679 01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:38.119 paying nearly the rates that I was getting before. 1680 01:37:39.239 --> 01:37:39.279 That. 1681 01:37:39.560 --> 01:37:42.520 I've been working for the last about month, so on 1682 01:37:42.600 --> 01:37:44.880 the employment end, it's been a little bit rocky here. 1683 01:37:47.359 --> 01:37:51.800 And yeah, just anyway, the whole year has just been insane. 1684 01:37:51.840 --> 01:37:54.159 My wife got a new job in June and that 1685 01:37:54.239 --> 01:37:56.279 kind of sucks up all of her time. It's more 1686 01:37:56.319 --> 01:37:59.960 than full time kind of the way that that's gone. 1687 01:38:00.359 --> 01:38:02.600 But the nice thing is is that we've been able 1688 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:08.520 to pay most of the bills and have health insurance 1689 01:38:08.520 --> 01:38:11.159 and stuff like that through her work. So that's where 1690 01:38:11.199 --> 01:38:14.000 things are sitting where we're going here for the next 1691 01:38:14.000 --> 01:38:15.359 little while. A lot of it has to do with 1692 01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:18.319 the podcasts. As I mentioned, I'm putting together AI for 1693 01:38:18.399 --> 01:38:21.760 Ruby and AI for JavaScript podcasts. I have both of 1694 01:38:21.760 --> 01:38:24.520 those domains, they're both the dot coms, So once those 1695 01:38:24.560 --> 01:38:27.199 come out, I'll probably release the first few episodes on 1696 01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:31.840 Ruby Rogues and JavaScript jbber feeds and then right and 1697 01:38:31.880 --> 01:38:33.479 then if you want those shows, you'll just go over 1698 01:38:33.520 --> 01:38:36.119 to the other feeds. I've also been working on the 1699 01:38:36.119 --> 01:38:39.600 top end devs platform and putting that together so I 1700 01:38:39.600 --> 01:38:41.680 can offer courses and things like that, like the AI 1701 01:38:41.760 --> 01:38:46.239 dev boot Camp and I decided that since I just 1702 01:38:46.279 --> 01:38:50.119 turned forty five, if you want a forty five percent discount, 1703 01:38:50.760 --> 01:38:53.279 go to aidevboot camp dot com. You can set up 1704 01:38:53.279 --> 01:38:56.960 a call with me. Mostly it's because I like I 1705 01:38:57.000 --> 01:39:00.239 have the curriculum laid out, but I want to talk 1706 01:39:00.279 --> 01:39:02.680 to people and make sure that I understand where you're 1707 01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:04.479 coming from, what problems you want to solve, what things 1708 01:39:04.479 --> 01:39:07.520 you're looking at, so that you know if there's something 1709 01:39:07.520 --> 01:39:11.920 that you're in particular interested in, that I can make 1710 01:39:11.920 --> 01:39:14.239 sure that I'm covering that and that I understand what 1711 01:39:14.279 --> 01:39:18.159 you want. I think I've got it figured out, but 1712 01:39:19.000 --> 01:39:22.279 I can verify that by talking to people. So aidev 1713 01:39:22.319 --> 01:39:24.760 boot camp dot com there's going to be a video 1714 01:39:25.039 --> 01:39:31.399 and a scheduling link on there. And yeah, so and 1715 01:39:31.800 --> 01:39:33.640 like I said, if you sign up for a call 1716 01:39:33.680 --> 01:39:37.880 here within the next week as we're recording this right 1717 01:39:37.920 --> 01:39:42.000 so when this comes out, yeah, just let me know 1718 01:39:42.039 --> 01:39:43.960 that you had just heard the episode and we'll still 1719 01:39:43.960 --> 01:39:48.319 give you the discount. But anyway, that's kind of the 1720 01:39:48.319 --> 01:39:50.600 big thing I'm working on. And then I have been 1721 01:39:50.600 --> 01:39:54.840 working on pulling together the communities for JavaScript, JavaScript geniuses 1722 01:39:54.840 --> 01:39:56.920 and Ruby Geniuses, So those are the other two big 1723 01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:59.239 things I'm working on. I want to do a weekly 1724 01:39:59.319 --> 01:40:01.880 call where we kind of chat like this. We'll have 1725 01:40:01.960 --> 01:40:05.119 a topic, maybe have somebody do a little bit of 1726 01:40:05.159 --> 01:40:08.239 teaching a demo, and then we'll chat, right because I 1727 01:40:08.279 --> 01:40:11.680 want it to be a community where you get the 1728 01:40:11.720 --> 01:40:13.800 benefits of having a community, kind of like when I 1729 01:40:13.840 --> 01:40:16.279 had coming up, when I was going to users groups 1730 01:40:16.279 --> 01:40:18.359 and stuff. I just I've seen a lot of those 1731 01:40:18.399 --> 01:40:20.199 that have just not come back, and I want to 1732 01:40:20.199 --> 01:40:23.319 give people that option. And then it'll also include weekly 1733 01:40:23.399 --> 01:40:28.079 videos where I teach some thing in JavaScript and you know, 1734 01:40:28.199 --> 01:40:31.399 just dive into how to build great apps and do 1735 01:40:31.520 --> 01:40:36.720 awesome stuff with with JavaScript. So anyway, that's essentially my 1736 01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:40.119 three minutes. I took a little longer to but that's 1737 01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:42.239 the big thing that I'm working on. You can go 1738 01:40:42.319 --> 01:40:44.239 sign up for any and all of it at JavaScript 1739 01:40:44.319 --> 01:40:46.840 jet or yeah at JavaScript jabber dot com or top 1740 01:40:46.920 --> 01:40:52.239 endos dot com. So yeah, let's go ahead and slide 1741 01:40:52.239 --> 01:40:55.439 into our picks and then we'll wrap it up. Yeah, 1742 01:40:55.439 --> 01:40:57.840 this has been a little bit longer episode, but I 1743 01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:02.159 don't hear any complaints. Dan, We've kind of had you 1744 01:41:02.359 --> 01:41:04.399 going first every time, So you want to go first 1745 01:41:04.439 --> 01:41:04.840 with picks. 1746 01:41:05.279 --> 01:41:08.479 Sure, why not? So I've got two picks. The first 1747 01:41:08.800 --> 01:41:13.279 is a TV show that we're watching think on Netflix. 1748 01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:21.760 It's with Sorry, it's with Ted Danson. It's called A 1749 01:41:21.800 --> 01:41:27.399 Man on the Inside. It's not amazing, it's not very deep, 1750 01:41:27.760 --> 01:41:32.199 but it's very enjoyable and it's kind of, you know, heartwarming. 1751 01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:40.439 It's about this retired man widower who in order to 1752 01:41:40.800 --> 01:41:43.640 like his his daughter tells him to get the hobby. 1753 01:41:44.039 --> 01:41:47.039 So the hobby he gets is to be this kind of. 1754 01:41:48.800 --> 01:41:56.359 Spy in in a in ah what the assisted living 1755 01:41:56.520 --> 01:42:01.279 facility in order to try to find who who you know, 1756 01:42:01.399 --> 01:42:03.279 who stole some some stuff there? 1757 01:42:03.840 --> 01:42:08.279 Uh? And uh, it's it's really enjoyable. It's it's amusing, 1758 01:42:08.319 --> 01:42:11.359 it's heartwarming, it's enjoyable, and we're we're liking it so far. 1759 01:42:12.079 --> 01:42:15.319 Like I said, not very deep, but enjoyable. Uh. And 1760 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:20.920 the other, my other pick is a podcast called Triggernometry. 1761 01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:25.439 It's a mostly political podcast. It's with the British comedians 1762 01:42:25.479 --> 01:42:30.399 Constantin Kissin and Francis Foster. The latest episode that I'm 1763 01:42:30.439 --> 01:42:34.239 not finished, that I've not finished watching is actually excellent 1764 01:42:34.760 --> 01:42:38.039 if you're into podcasts and you want to understand what's 1765 01:42:38.079 --> 01:42:43.520 going on in Syria because it's really complicated. Then I 1766 01:42:43.560 --> 01:42:49.520 really really recommend this latest podcast episode from yesterday. They 1767 01:42:49.600 --> 01:42:53.439 interview Thomas Small, who I don't know. I've never heard 1768 01:42:53.479 --> 01:42:56.279 of him before, but he describes what's going on there 1769 01:42:56.279 --> 01:42:59.399 in detail and I know something about it, and so 1770 01:42:59.600 --> 01:43:03.960 far everything he's said has been pretty much on the money. 1771 01:43:04.600 --> 01:43:08.119 So if you want to learn more about what's going 1772 01:43:08.119 --> 01:43:12.600 on there and I want to understand what might happen, 1773 01:43:13.399 --> 01:43:17.680 I highly recommend that episode. And those would be my picks. 1774 01:43:19.600 --> 01:43:23.359 Awesome, Steve, what are your picks? 1775 01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:28.000 All right? I know it's been a few weeks so 1776 01:43:28.159 --> 01:43:31.239 people have been I've been getting emails like constantly saying 1777 01:43:31.239 --> 01:43:36.920 we need you back for your dad jokes. So right, anyway, 1778 01:43:37.399 --> 01:43:40.680 so here's my dad jokes of the week I've written. 1779 01:43:40.680 --> 01:43:42.359 This one is so great for this kind of year. 1780 01:43:42.399 --> 01:43:44.359 At least if you live in the US you'll get it. 1781 01:43:45.439 --> 01:43:47.920 My wife took a car into a mechanic the other 1782 01:43:48.000 --> 01:43:50.640 day and she says, man, it's making this horrible noise, 1783 01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:53.760 and he said, have you tried turning off that Mariah 1784 01:43:53.760 --> 01:44:00.680 Carey Christmas song? For those of you not in the US, 1785 01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:03.039 there's a singer Mariah Carey had a song All I 1786 01:44:03.039 --> 01:44:05.159 Want for Christmas Is You came out I don't know, 1787 01:44:05.279 --> 01:44:07.479 twenty thirty years ago and it still gets played ad 1788 01:44:07.520 --> 01:44:08.920 nausea at Christmas. 1789 01:44:09.199 --> 01:44:13.199 You reminded me of you know this thing called mean tweets, 1790 01:44:13.239 --> 01:44:13.600 where so. 1791 01:44:15.279 --> 01:44:17.520 I think they read the ones that are dry. 1792 01:44:17.640 --> 01:44:20.079 Yeah. I think it was Selena Gomez who had a 1793 01:44:20.079 --> 01:44:23.319 song come out at that time, and the tweet was 1794 01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:26.439 that Selena Gomez song is on the radio again. Is 1795 01:44:26.439 --> 01:44:28.720 there a volume lower than mute? 1796 01:44:31.279 --> 01:44:31.399 Uh? 1797 01:44:31.880 --> 01:44:34.239 So let's see. Sorry, I lost my page here a 1798 01:44:34.279 --> 01:44:41.239 little bit, and I got sunlight glaring at me. Oh, 1799 01:44:41.600 --> 01:44:46.199 let's see. Dang it just when you hit uh Expand 1800 01:44:46.279 --> 01:44:51.479 So the meteorologist who devised the windshell factor, you know 1801 01:44:51.479 --> 01:44:54.000 that we all say it's disagrees, but it feels like this. 1802 01:44:54.199 --> 01:44:57.680 He died he was eighty six, but he felt like 1803 01:44:57.720 --> 01:44:58.680 he was seventy. 1804 01:44:58.319 --> 01:45:02.279 Five, right, okay? 1805 01:45:03.319 --> 01:45:07.039 And finally, what do you call a javelin shape javelin 1806 01:45:07.079 --> 01:45:15.359 thrower with Parkinson's disease? Shakespeare? Those are the dad jokes 1807 01:45:15.359 --> 01:45:15.800 of the week. 1808 01:45:16.319 --> 01:45:18.720 You know, they don't carry the same punch. Now that 1809 01:45:18.760 --> 01:45:21.159 I follow you more on Twitter and I get to 1810 01:45:21.159 --> 01:45:24.600 see them in advance. I wish I could be I 1811 01:45:25.279 --> 01:45:27.039 need to I need to unfollow you so that I 1812 01:45:27.079 --> 01:45:29.920 can I can have the full experience the first time 1813 01:45:29.920 --> 01:45:30.880 while we're here on the show. 1814 01:45:33.800 --> 01:45:35.079 All right, AJ, what are your picks? 1815 01:45:36.119 --> 01:45:36.439 Okay? 1816 01:45:36.800 --> 01:45:40.600 So first one is there's this new thing or maybe 1817 01:45:40.640 --> 01:45:42.399 it's it's actually probably not a new thing. It's just 1818 01:45:42.399 --> 01:45:48.359 something I heard about recently called rejection therapy and uh, 1819 01:45:48.920 --> 01:45:53.600 unsolicited life advice for men. Rejection is the water that 1820 01:45:53.640 --> 01:45:58.359 you swim in. Rejection encompasses you, it surrounds you, it 1821 01:45:58.399 --> 01:46:01.600 is it is the pressure sure that is constantly pushing 1822 01:46:01.640 --> 01:46:05.279 on every fiber of your being and booiz you up. 1823 01:46:05.960 --> 01:46:07.720 Rejection is the water you swim in. 1824 01:46:08.319 --> 01:46:10.640 So you ain't tell let me tell you. 1825 01:46:11.920 --> 01:46:14.800 I mean, people got to understand it, like I think, 1826 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:17.960 because we used to have brothers, we used to have friends, 1827 01:46:18.159 --> 01:46:21.079 we used to have dares, and you know, and and 1828 01:46:21.560 --> 01:46:24.960 this generation of men that's growing up, they unfortunately, because 1829 01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:27.760 of your choices, of their their parents, of you know, 1830 01:46:27.840 --> 01:46:31.199 situations whatever, like people, people don't they don't live in 1831 01:46:31.239 --> 01:46:36.399 communities where they have that that you know, uh, healthy 1832 01:46:36.479 --> 01:46:40.720 toxic masculinity of men razzing one another and you know, 1833 01:46:41.800 --> 01:46:44.920 doing the dares and doing the you know, the trash 1834 01:46:44.960 --> 01:46:47.159 talk and stuff. But you need it because you you like, 1835 01:46:47.239 --> 01:46:49.880 that is real life, like you have to face rejection anyway, 1836 01:46:49.920 --> 01:46:54.399 rejection therapy. There's this guy who's got a YouTube channel 1837 01:46:54.479 --> 01:47:01.199 where he's he does stuff in order to experience rejection 1838 01:47:01.319 --> 01:47:03.840 and become comfortable with it, and that I think it's 1839 01:47:03.880 --> 01:47:05.640 I think it's so important, and I thought it was 1840 01:47:05.680 --> 01:47:09.760 a really cool take. So basically does things that he 1841 01:47:09.960 --> 01:47:12.680 knows won't happen or I think he's got a list 1842 01:47:12.680 --> 01:47:14.560 of one hundred items, and I think the first ones 1843 01:47:14.560 --> 01:47:17.960 are ones that are pretty much impossible, but then some 1844 01:47:18.039 --> 01:47:20.199 of them you might get lucky and it might work out. 1845 01:47:20.239 --> 01:47:26.359 And it's it's stuff like you know, ask ask the 1846 01:47:27.239 --> 01:47:31.319 cashier if you can scoop your own fries or you know, 1847 01:47:31.439 --> 01:47:33.880 just like some of it's just ridiculous stuff like what 1848 01:47:33.920 --> 01:47:38.119 you would normally in a typical teenage teenagerhood of yesteryear. 1849 01:47:38.520 --> 01:47:40.319 You know, you would just stupid stuff you would have 1850 01:47:40.319 --> 01:47:44.760 done with your buddies anyway, but just ridiculous asks to 1851 01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:49.319 become comfortable with doing something that pretty much guarantees rejection 1852 01:47:49.399 --> 01:47:52.760 so you can feel okay with rejection. And so I've 1853 01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:55.720 got a link to his blog and his YouTube channel, 1854 01:47:55.880 --> 01:48:01.560 and then along that Vein john Sonmez who was previously 1855 01:48:01.880 --> 01:48:06.439 simple programmer on the channel that he was coded developing. 1856 01:48:06.560 --> 01:48:09.159 At a similar time, he has a video that's very 1857 01:48:09.159 --> 01:48:14.079 similar to this called eye Contact and Smirking, and it's 1858 01:48:14.279 --> 01:48:16.960 it's a similar thing. It's it's about go around and 1859 01:48:17.039 --> 01:48:19.920 do things that are uncomfortable, like just walk down the street, 1860 01:48:20.399 --> 01:48:22.520 or walk through a mall, or walk through some crowded 1861 01:48:22.560 --> 01:48:27.000 area and just maintain eye contact and don't don't look away, 1862 01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:30.479 don't blink, don't smile, just maintain eye contact and keep walking. 1863 01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:32.279 Then it's one of those things because it makes you 1864 01:48:32.319 --> 01:48:34.960 feel uncomfortable inside. But then as you do it, you 1865 01:48:35.039 --> 01:48:39.920 actually become more confident, because confidence is simply not having 1866 01:48:39.920 --> 01:48:41.760 a fear of rejection more or less. And if you 1867 01:48:42.560 --> 01:48:45.439 do these things anyway, So I just think it's absolutely wonderful. 1868 01:48:46.000 --> 01:48:49.039 I think that men today, you know, especially if you 1869 01:48:49.079 --> 01:48:51.640 want to be valuable in the dating pool, you have 1870 01:48:51.840 --> 01:48:56.119 got to accept that rejection is your world. Uh. And 1871 01:48:56.199 --> 01:49:00.359 when you accept that and you become comfortable and confident 1872 01:49:00.439 --> 01:49:03.159 in the world of rejection, than the world's your Oyster, 1873 01:49:03.359 --> 01:49:07.479 and then also that john Sons another video that I 1874 01:49:07.520 --> 01:49:09.680 don't remember exactly what it was, but I had it 1875 01:49:09.800 --> 01:49:11.720 in the same bookmark place where I had this other 1876 01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:14.199 one was called how to Become a Man, and it's 1877 01:49:14.279 --> 01:49:17.159 it's about stoicism and stuff. So that's that's all kind 1878 01:49:17.199 --> 01:49:20.560 of one pick is rejection therapy, and and I guess 1879 01:49:20.560 --> 01:49:26.600 in general stoicism. I can't cannot recommend it enough. I 1880 01:49:27.079 --> 01:49:30.640 something similar to this is what changed my world, and 1881 01:49:30.680 --> 01:49:33.640 I went from not being able to get dates to 1882 01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:36.760 being able to get dates with anybody that I wanted 1883 01:49:36.800 --> 01:49:40.199 to get dates with. Now actually extending that to relationship 1884 01:49:40.319 --> 01:49:43.199 is a completely different story, because it's a you know, 1885 01:49:43.279 --> 01:49:46.840 the door salesman game is completely different than the Life 1886 01:49:46.920 --> 01:49:49.439 partner game. But but you know, you got to you 1887 01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:51.319 gotta do the one to get to the other at 1888 01:49:51.319 --> 01:49:54.800 some point. Anyway. The other pick I have is there's 1889 01:49:54.880 --> 01:49:58.319 an AI Model Leader leader board, so if you want 1890 01:49:58.319 --> 01:50:01.079 to stay up to date with well, I don't know. 1891 01:50:01.119 --> 01:50:03.439 I mean, it's kind of be exhausting to be downloading 1892 01:50:03.479 --> 01:50:05.439 new models all the time, but you know, if you 1893 01:50:05.479 --> 01:50:09.119 want to keep an eye on which models are performing 1894 01:50:09.159 --> 01:50:12.319 the best, which you know, of course, open AI's models 1895 01:50:12.880 --> 01:50:15.880 are always playing leapfrog with the other models, and so 1896 01:50:16.199 --> 01:50:19.319 you're probably seventy five percent of the time the open 1897 01:50:19.359 --> 01:50:21.800 A models are on the top, but they're not that 1898 01:50:21.960 --> 01:50:24.520 much further ahead. I mean we're talking we're down to 1899 01:50:24.960 --> 01:50:28.039 a matter of like one to two percentage points. So 1900 01:50:28.279 --> 01:50:30.079 most of the other models are not most of the 1901 01:50:30.079 --> 01:50:34.520 other models. Most of the other groups that are producing models, 1902 01:50:34.600 --> 01:50:37.800 that have been producing models for a long time, their models, 1903 01:50:37.880 --> 01:50:40.119 you know, leapfrog and get up there within a couple 1904 01:50:40.119 --> 01:50:42.239 of percentage points. And a lot of them are open 1905 01:50:42.279 --> 01:50:46.239 source and so like open ai was supposed to be. 1906 01:50:47.039 --> 01:50:48.840 So if you want to keep on track to top 1907 01:50:48.880 --> 01:50:51.359 of the AI stuff, it's evl plus, dot getthub, dot io, 1908 01:50:51.479 --> 01:50:54.800 slash leaderboard, dot HTML. That link will be in the notes, 1909 01:50:55.600 --> 01:50:59.000 and then Olama slash search. So once you go check 1910 01:50:59.039 --> 01:51:01.159 out the model on the leaderboard, then you can check 1911 01:51:01.159 --> 01:51:03.399 it out at a Lama and then you can see, 1912 01:51:03.479 --> 01:51:05.439 you know, you can run it for yourself, play with it, 1913 01:51:05.479 --> 01:51:07.600 see if it's fast enough, if you like it, and 1914 01:51:07.680 --> 01:51:11.760 then and then of course you know, if you want 1915 01:51:11.760 --> 01:51:14.760 to install Alama easy and quickly web installed, dot dev 1916 01:51:14.800 --> 01:51:17.479 slash Alama and you can you can do that, and 1917 01:51:17.960 --> 01:51:23.520 I I mostly use chat GPT just because it's convenient, 1918 01:51:24.920 --> 01:51:28.880 but I do run models locally and a lot of 1919 01:51:28.880 --> 01:51:32.680 them are just as good or slightly better depending on 1920 01:51:32.720 --> 01:51:35.840 the topic. I mean, particularly downloading a model that's tuned 1921 01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:37.720 for coding, you can get them that are a little 1922 01:51:37.760 --> 01:51:40.159 bit better or at least just as good. And so 1923 01:51:40.359 --> 01:51:45.680 playing with different models I've I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed that 1924 01:51:45.800 --> 01:51:49.119 experience and you know, being able to run it, run 1925 01:51:49.159 --> 01:51:50.960 it on my own hardware. Now, granted, you do have 1926 01:51:51.000 --> 01:51:52.680 to have like thirty two gigs ARAM for a lot 1927 01:51:52.720 --> 01:51:56.439 of these models, or at least sixteen you know, that's 1928 01:51:56.479 --> 01:51:59.680 that's available. But anyway, so those those are my picks 1929 01:51:59.720 --> 01:52:03.239 reject therapy and places to check out the top AI 1930 01:52:03.279 --> 01:52:04.439 models and experiment with them. 1931 01:52:05.560 --> 01:52:05.760 You know. 1932 01:52:05.800 --> 01:52:07.520 One of the things I'd like to do aja to 1933 01:52:07.520 --> 01:52:09.680 practice that, you know, along the lines of the looking 1934 01:52:09.720 --> 01:52:11.760 people's eyes, is when I get in elevators or I 1935 01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:15.399 turn around and face inward from the front, makes people 1936 01:52:15.399 --> 01:52:16.199 all kind of nervous. 1937 01:52:16.840 --> 01:52:17.560 Do you really do that? 1938 01:52:17.600 --> 01:52:19.479 Though I have done it before, Yeah, I don't do 1939 01:52:19.520 --> 01:52:21.680 it every time, but God bless it. 1940 01:52:22.239 --> 01:52:27.880 There's a famous sociological experiment where they put they had 1941 01:52:27.920 --> 01:52:31.399 people walking to elevators and people inside were standing facing 1942 01:52:31.439 --> 01:52:35.279 like wind directions, and people basically align themselves with the group. 1943 01:52:36.359 --> 01:52:38.159 Yeah. Well, you know, when I was younger, I had 1944 01:52:38.159 --> 01:52:41.239 this crazy uncle. He used to take all of us 1945 01:52:41.239 --> 01:52:44.880 and make us stand still and quiet for two minutes 1946 01:52:44.920 --> 01:52:47.039 and not say a word, and he called it elevator practice. 1947 01:52:49.840 --> 01:52:53.159 All right, I am going to throw in my picks. 1948 01:52:53.199 --> 01:52:55.159 So the first one's a board game. It's called Heat. 1949 01:52:56.600 --> 01:53:00.960 It is a game. It's a racing board game. So 1950 01:53:01.119 --> 01:53:04.760 you you all have your cars. You can play up 1951 01:53:04.800 --> 01:53:07.399 to like eight players, I think with the expansion without 1952 01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:12.960 the expansions up to six players. And what you what 1953 01:53:13.000 --> 01:53:14.560 you wind up doing is you play with a deck 1954 01:53:14.600 --> 01:53:17.560 of cards, uh that that are in your hand, and 1955 01:53:17.600 --> 01:53:22.600 you're you're essentially trying to get around the track the fastest, right, 1956 01:53:22.680 --> 01:53:25.880 whoever gets We play two laps, and so after two laps, 1957 01:53:25.920 --> 01:53:31.079 whoever's the furthest past the finish line wins. Now, it 1958 01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:34.119 has curves on the track, and so if you go 1959 01:53:34.640 --> 01:53:38.479 around the track too fast on that curve, then you 1960 01:53:38.560 --> 01:53:42.399 take heat in your engine. And the Heat cards are 1961 01:53:42.439 --> 01:53:47.760 basically they just take up space in your hand. If 1962 01:53:47.760 --> 01:53:50.520 you run out of heat, then you spin out and 1963 01:53:51.840 --> 01:53:56.680 you go back to the the curve that you blew past, right, 1964 01:53:57.159 --> 01:53:58.720 and so then you've got to get around the curve 1965 01:53:59.560 --> 01:54:02.920 without taking any more heat, and then you've got there 1966 01:54:02.920 --> 01:54:05.000 are ways to get rid of heat and all that stuff. 1967 01:54:06.840 --> 01:54:09.800 It's it was a really really fun game. We played 1968 01:54:09.800 --> 01:54:12.079 it and like I think when there were six of us, 1969 01:54:12.720 --> 01:54:15.319 we played it in like a half hour or sorry, 1970 01:54:15.319 --> 01:54:18.319 in an hour. When there were four of us, I 1971 01:54:18.319 --> 01:54:23.520 think it took us like forty five minutes. So really 1972 01:54:23.520 --> 01:54:26.279 not that bad board game. Geek waits it at two 1973 01:54:26.359 --> 01:54:30.359 point one point nine, so casual. It is the top 1974 01:54:30.479 --> 01:54:34.000 end of your casual player. You know what you're willing 1975 01:54:34.039 --> 01:54:37.840 to attack. But anyway, it's it's a lot of fun. 1976 01:54:38.479 --> 01:54:42.359 There are multiple boards or multiple tracks I guess you 1977 01:54:42.359 --> 01:54:47.359 can play on, and so yeah, you're it's really just 1978 01:54:47.479 --> 01:54:51.960 that that management of your deck. I think some of 1979 01:54:52.000 --> 01:54:55.039 the expansions give you like power ups, but the main 1980 01:54:55.159 --> 01:54:57.720 deck you don't. You just you just play your deck 1981 01:54:57.720 --> 01:55:00.640 and then try and manage your speed in your heat. 1982 01:55:01.239 --> 01:55:05.479 And that's really it, right, It's okay, how fast can 1983 01:55:05.479 --> 01:55:08.479 I take this turn? And then how quickly can I 1984 01:55:08.520 --> 01:55:10.920 bleed the heat off before I have to take the 1985 01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:14.479 next turn, the next curve. And so you know, if 1986 01:55:14.520 --> 01:55:17.279 the curve is a five and you go ten, you 1987 01:55:17.319 --> 01:55:20.880 take five heat. You only have seven heat in your deck, 1988 01:55:21.560 --> 01:55:23.199 and so if you don't have the five heat, then 1989 01:55:23.199 --> 01:55:25.439 you spin out. And so that that's the game you're 1990 01:55:25.439 --> 01:55:27.439 playing with that. It's it's a lot of fun. I 1991 01:55:27.479 --> 01:55:30.199 don't know if I'm doing it justice, but we really 1992 01:55:30.199 --> 01:55:32.239 had a good time. And it's really not that complicated 1993 01:55:32.239 --> 01:55:35.000 a game to pick up. The steps are on your 1994 01:55:35.079 --> 01:55:38.840 playing card or your play matt and so you just 1995 01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:41.840 literally just go down the thing. And the only thing 1996 01:55:41.880 --> 01:55:46.239 you do simultaneously is you you put the cards face 1997 01:55:46.319 --> 01:55:47.760 down that you're going to do, and then you can 1998 01:55:47.760 --> 01:55:50.479 flip them over. You flip them all over at the 1999 01:55:50.479 --> 01:55:52.039 same time, and then you just play them in order 2000 01:55:52.520 --> 01:55:54.920 first place to last place, and there are some catchup 2001 01:55:54.920 --> 01:55:57.880 mechanisms and stuff, so you know, if you get way behind, 2002 01:55:57.920 --> 01:56:00.039 you can definitely do that. I'm going to pick a 2003 01:56:00.079 --> 01:56:03.439 couple of books as well. I really have enjoyed these. 2004 01:56:03.520 --> 01:56:05.520 I'm almost done with the second one. The first one 2005 01:56:06.159 --> 01:56:13.920 is Hit Refresh by Satia Nadella. Satia is the CEO 2006 01:56:14.199 --> 01:56:22.640 of Microsoft, and anyway, he kind of now the book's 2007 01:56:22.640 --> 01:56:25.680 not current, right, so it doesn't have the last few 2008 01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:28.439 years of history from Microsoft, but he talks about when 2009 01:56:28.439 --> 01:56:30.840 he took his history and then how we took over 2010 01:56:30.920 --> 01:56:34.239 a Microsoft and how they kind of changed direction, and 2011 01:56:34.359 --> 01:56:36.119 it's you know, solve some of the issues that were 2012 01:56:36.119 --> 01:56:41.279 there inside the company. And anyway, it was really really good. 2013 01:56:41.319 --> 01:56:45.079 I really really can't recommend this book highly enough. It 2014 01:56:45.119 --> 01:56:46.720 was fun that it was in tech, and it was 2015 01:56:46.800 --> 01:56:48.880 fun that it was, you know, somebody that I had 2016 01:56:48.920 --> 01:56:52.520 actually seen speak because I've gone to Microsoft conferences in 2017 01:56:52.560 --> 01:56:58.439 the past and anyway, hit refresh. Terrific, terrific book. He 2018 01:56:58.560 --> 01:57:02.159 reads part to the book on the audiobook. That's how 2019 01:57:02.159 --> 01:57:05.000 I consumed it. He reads parts of it himself, but 2020 01:57:05.680 --> 01:57:08.560 there's a narrator for the rest. It's basically the parts 2021 01:57:08.760 --> 01:57:11.520 he does the forward, and I think he does the afterward, 2022 01:57:11.520 --> 01:57:13.079 and then there's like one or two parts where he 2023 01:57:13.079 --> 01:57:17.479 talks about his disabled son and that's kind of personal, 2024 01:57:17.560 --> 01:57:20.319 and so he reads that part himself as well. But 2025 01:57:20.520 --> 01:57:23.079 it was really really good and I found it inspiring, 2026 01:57:23.239 --> 01:57:25.199 just because I think a lot of times we get 2027 01:57:25.239 --> 01:57:30.079 the idea that just because things worked out and you 2028 01:57:30.119 --> 01:57:33.640 know whatever, that these people somehow have this like blessed 2029 01:57:33.680 --> 01:57:37.159 life and no challenges and stuff like that, and it 2030 01:57:37.239 --> 01:57:40.199 turns out that, you know, he went through some stuff too, 2031 01:57:40.239 --> 01:57:42.960 some personal stuff, and there were some real challenges in 2032 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:45.520 the way that they had to approach things. The other 2033 01:57:45.600 --> 01:57:49.920 book is American Icon by Bryce Hoffman, and he talks 2034 01:57:49.960 --> 01:57:54.760 about the turnaround at Ford, and so he kind of 2035 01:57:54.800 --> 01:57:57.079 gets into some of the history of the Ford Motor 2036 01:57:57.119 --> 01:58:00.840 Company and what led up to them I'm hiring Alan 2037 01:58:00.920 --> 01:58:04.840 Molalley as their CEO, and then all of the things 2038 01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:08.600 that they went through to basically revitalize and rescue Ford 2039 01:58:09.640 --> 01:58:13.039 up through the Great Recession and all that stuff. And 2040 01:58:13.199 --> 01:58:16.520 it's been really fascinating to listen to as well. I 2041 01:58:16.520 --> 01:58:18.680 think I've got like an hour left on that book, 2042 01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:22.760 it is so good. And then the other I have 2043 01:58:22.840 --> 01:58:25.600 another fiction book series that I want to pick and 2044 01:58:25.640 --> 01:58:29.239 I don't remember if I picked this before, but they're 2045 01:58:29.239 --> 01:58:32.119 worth picking again anyway. It's the sort of truth books, 2046 01:58:34.359 --> 01:58:38.680 and those are by Terry Goodkind. I read them when 2047 01:58:38.720 --> 01:58:43.479 I was in high school, and well, the ones that 2048 01:58:43.520 --> 01:58:47.000 were out when I was in high school. The first 2049 01:58:47.000 --> 01:58:49.239 one's called Wizard's First Rule, and I'll put a link 2050 01:58:49.319 --> 01:58:55.199 to that here as well. It's in the chat in the. 2051 01:58:55.600 --> 01:58:59.439 Yeah, I like those books. It's one of the best magicals, 2052 01:58:59.520 --> 01:59:03.640 most about magical systems I've ever seen in a fantasy 2053 01:59:03.680 --> 01:59:04.359 book series. 2054 01:59:06.159 --> 01:59:09.800 Yeah, it's it's so good. I've really really enjoyed them. 2055 01:59:09.840 --> 01:59:11.520 I'm on book six or seven. 2056 01:59:12.720 --> 01:59:16.319 Oh, actually I confused it with another book series. Sorry, 2057 01:59:17.079 --> 01:59:21.159 you're you're saying it was its first rule. Yeah, yeah, no, 2058 01:59:21.279 --> 01:59:23.399 it's I read that as well, but I was thinking 2059 01:59:23.399 --> 01:59:24.039 of a different one. 2060 01:59:24.079 --> 01:59:27.840 Never mind, I'm curious what you confused it with. 2061 01:59:27.920 --> 01:59:33.760 But yeah, that while you while you speak, I'll do 2062 01:59:33.800 --> 01:59:35.479 a quick search because I don't want to get through 2063 01:59:35.680 --> 01:59:36.479 the name wrong again. 2064 01:59:37.039 --> 01:59:40.680 Fair enough. The last pick I have is, so I 2065 01:59:40.720 --> 01:59:43.479 am talking to you. I mentioned this earlier, and I 2066 01:59:43.560 --> 01:59:46.800 kind of wanted to put this up as a potential trend, 2067 01:59:46.880 --> 01:59:50.239 but I don't know. I don't know if it will 2068 01:59:50.319 --> 01:59:57.560 or won't come to pass. So anyway, I I switched 2069 01:59:57.560 --> 02:00:02.199 to Linux off of mac oes and part of the 2070 02:00:02.239 --> 02:00:05.319 deal was so I've been running on the left, so 2071 02:00:06.000 --> 02:00:09.039 you know, kudos to Mac. I was running on a 2072 02:00:09.119 --> 02:00:12.720 Mac laptop for the last six five or six years, 2073 02:00:13.760 --> 02:00:16.800 and I mean, you know, the thing did everything I 2074 02:00:16.840 --> 02:00:20.079 needed to up until recently. I had a couple of 2075 02:00:20.119 --> 02:00:24.760 clients that had their applications running essentially on a Docker 2076 02:00:24.840 --> 02:00:30.520 composed and so once I fired up the Docker agent 2077 02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:35.239 on which is doctor Desktop on the Mac, my machine 2078 02:00:35.239 --> 02:00:37.840 would just grind to a halt. It was super slow, 2079 02:00:38.600 --> 02:00:45.760 and so I was looking at things and thinking, you know, 2080 02:00:45.920 --> 02:00:50.439 this is not working for me, and I need another machine. 2081 02:00:50.479 --> 02:00:52.840 So I looked into getting a new Mac and I 2082 02:00:52.880 --> 02:00:56.439 could get another Mac laptop, but again, the resources on 2083 02:00:56.560 --> 02:00:59.159 the on the laptops were not where I wanted them. 2084 02:00:59.319 --> 02:01:02.960 I been diving into AI a bunch, and you know 2085 02:01:03.239 --> 02:01:07.000 that kind of taxes the resources sometimes, and so I 2086 02:01:07.039 --> 02:01:10.279 wanted something that had a whole lot more horsepower. And 2087 02:01:10.319 --> 02:01:12.640 so then I looked at a MacPro, and the MacPro 2088 02:01:13.399 --> 02:01:16.199 with all the things that I wanted in it was 2089 02:01:16.239 --> 02:01:20.079 like eleven thousand dollars and I thought, okay, well, you know, 2090 02:01:21.039 --> 02:01:23.079 at the time, I was on a contract that I 2091 02:01:23.119 --> 02:01:25.720 expected to last that didn't, and so I thought I 2092 02:01:25.760 --> 02:01:28.000 could afford it, and so I almost pulled the trigger 2093 02:01:28.039 --> 02:01:32.880 on that, and then I just decided not to. But 2094 02:01:33.000 --> 02:01:34.319 at the same time, I was trying to get this 2095 02:01:34.359 --> 02:01:36.560 work done and it would just go kind of slow, 2096 02:01:37.159 --> 02:01:39.720 and so I was poking around the internet looking for 2097 02:01:39.760 --> 02:01:45.800 something else, and I found a company called System seventy six, 2098 02:01:47.119 --> 02:01:53.600 and System seventy six is they sell desktop machines, and 2099 02:01:53.720 --> 02:01:57.760 since I generally work here at my desk, I figured 2100 02:01:57.800 --> 02:01:59.960 that would be a great option, kind of like the MacPro, 2101 02:02:01.359 --> 02:02:04.279 and so it it. I can't remember all the specs. 2102 02:02:04.920 --> 02:02:08.199 I think as one hundred and twenty eight gigs a RAM, 2103 02:02:08.479 --> 02:02:11.039 I've got like, you know, four terabytes of hard drive 2104 02:02:11.079 --> 02:02:13.760 space in there, you know, so I'm well beyond what 2105 02:02:13.760 --> 02:02:17.880 my laptop had. And it runs a Buntu Linux. So 2106 02:02:17.920 --> 02:02:19.239 there have been a few things and I've kind of 2107 02:02:19.239 --> 02:02:21.760 had to figure out, hey, I like this on the Mac, 2108 02:02:21.800 --> 02:02:25.079 how do I do it on Linux? But so far 2109 02:02:26.279 --> 02:02:28.439 I haven't really been disappointed with what I can do 2110 02:02:28.479 --> 02:02:30.960 on the Mac or on the on the Linux machine. 2111 02:02:31.560 --> 02:02:36.319 I have not tried to hook up my ATM mini yet, 2112 02:02:36.359 --> 02:02:38.000 which is how I do my green screen, so I 2113 02:02:38.079 --> 02:02:41.079 might have to run some of that off of the Mac. 2114 02:02:41.159 --> 02:02:46.000 But it does that fine. But I mean other than that, 2115 02:02:46.279 --> 02:02:47.960 you know, and if I have to do Photoshop or something, 2116 02:02:47.960 --> 02:02:49.880 I'll just open up the Mac. It's not a big deal. 2117 02:02:50.359 --> 02:02:53.159 But the rest of it, I am delighted with the 2118 02:02:53.159 --> 02:02:56.119 way that it runs. It's fast, it does everything I need, 2119 02:02:57.520 --> 02:03:00.000 you know, all the Docker stuff, it just does it 2120 02:03:00.880 --> 02:03:03.119 because it's not running it in a VM, which was 2121 02:03:03.279 --> 02:03:07.079 what was killing my performance on my Mac. And so yeah, 2122 02:03:07.079 --> 02:03:09.359 at the end of the day, System seventy six is 2123 02:03:09.359 --> 02:03:16.199 where I got it. I love recommending good stuff. I 2124 02:03:16.199 --> 02:03:18.079 wish they had an affiliate program because then I'd get 2125 02:03:18.119 --> 02:03:20.520 paid to recommend good stuff. But go check them out 2126 02:03:20.520 --> 02:03:24.119 because they're awesome for laptops. If you're looking for laptops 2127 02:03:24.119 --> 02:03:26.439 in the same vein. The one that I keep hearing 2128 02:03:26.479 --> 02:03:29.159 about is the Framework laptop. I haven't used. I haven't 2129 02:03:29.159 --> 02:03:33.439 bought one, but that's where I'm looking next. And they 2130 02:03:33.479 --> 02:03:37.520 sell Linux laptops, but they're modular, and so if you 2131 02:03:37.560 --> 02:03:39.920 want to upgrade a part of it, you can actually 2132 02:03:40.000 --> 02:03:42.720 just buy that part from Framework and swap it in 2133 02:03:42.760 --> 02:03:44.880 your machine. So you can upgrade the RAM, you can 2134 02:03:44.960 --> 02:03:48.840 upgrade the screen, you can upgrade whatever you want off 2135 02:03:48.880 --> 02:03:51.840 of it, and you literally just pull the part off 2136 02:03:51.880 --> 02:03:54.720 and put the other part on. And so that appeals 2137 02:03:54.800 --> 02:03:57.640 to me from the standpoint of you know, then I 2138 02:03:57.640 --> 02:04:00.199 can have the laptop I want. And if I can't 2139 02:04:00.239 --> 02:04:02.319 quite buy the laptop with all the bells and whistles 2140 02:04:02.319 --> 02:04:05.760 I want, I can eventually just upgrade the pieces one 2141 02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:12.960 bit at a time. So anyway, yeah, I what Linux 2142 02:04:13.000 --> 02:04:15.159 would do. But I have, Like I said, it's it's 2143 02:04:15.199 --> 02:04:16.880 been able to do pretty much everything I need. 2144 02:04:18.119 --> 02:04:21.520 Sorry, I interrupted before we finish. You asked me about 2145 02:04:21.840 --> 02:04:22.239 the book. 2146 02:04:23.039 --> 02:04:23.159 Uh. 2147 02:04:23.359 --> 02:04:27.119 The book I was referring to is uh called Master 2148 02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:30.680 of the Five Magics by Lindon Hardy. If you're not 2149 02:04:30.680 --> 02:04:34.720 familiar with it, it's it's actually it's it's from the eighties. 2150 02:04:36.680 --> 02:04:40.680 It's it's uh. It has one of the best magic systems. 2151 02:04:40.720 --> 02:04:43.760 It's actually probably he it became a series, but it 2152 02:04:43.760 --> 02:04:48.079 can be read as a standalone book, and it's got 2153 02:04:48.199 --> 02:04:51.319 one of the best, most thought out magic systems I've 2154 02:04:51.399 --> 02:04:54.039 seen in a fantasy book. Huh. 2155 02:04:54.479 --> 02:04:56.079 I'm gonna have to add that to my wish list. 2156 02:04:59.399 --> 02:05:01.479 I'll see, I always looking for great. 2157 02:05:02.079 --> 02:05:04.520 I'll add that to my picks I'll send you. I'll 2158 02:05:04.520 --> 02:05:05.239 put in the link. 2159 02:05:06.720 --> 02:05:10.520 Awesome. All right, Well, I am done with my picks. 2160 02:05:11.119 --> 02:05:13.720 Just a reminder go to AIDEV boot camp dot com 2161 02:05:13.760 --> 02:05:16.800 If you want to get in on the boot camp, 2162 02:05:16.840 --> 02:05:19.680 I'm looking at starting it like the fifteenth ish of January. 2163 02:05:19.880 --> 02:05:24.920 So anyway, um, if that's everything, we'll just wrap it 2164 02:05:25.000 --> 02:05:27.159 up until next time. Folks max out