WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.839 Well, hello, and welcome back everyone to another leadership author 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.040 series episode. Extremely excited today to welcome someone that I 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:10.960 think has not only some amazing content a great book, 4 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:16.519 but some fantastic ideas and theories and concepts around. 5 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:18.480 Leadership in general. 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:20.719 Where we are today, where we're going, what we need, 7 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:23.120 and I'm excited to have this conversation. 8 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:24.359 So welcome to the show. 9 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:26.960 We have Holly Rolo here B to B marketing and 10 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.039 transformation expert and author. So welcome to the show, Holly, 11 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:31.920 and tell us a little bit about yourself. 12 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.000 Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I've been 13 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:38.960 around about three decades and B to B tech, and 14 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.000 I've seen a lot and over the years, I've gotten 15 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:48.240 very attracted to and good at helping companies go through 16 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:53.840 major transformation periods or major transitions, whether it's transforming to 17 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:59.880 a platform company, transforming into a new customer base or 18 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:04.560 market area, or even turnarounds. So I've been involved in 19 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:09.439 quite a few transactions and so that's that's what I 20 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:14.040 focus on, and I help cmos, CROs CEOs help kind 21 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:16.760 of position their company for you know, what they're trying 22 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.319 to do next. And most of the people that come 23 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:24.439 to me are organizations where either what they were doing 24 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.239 no longer works, or they've had a change in how 25 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.719 their investors think about their business. So maybe they've been 26 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:35.680 purchased by private equity and there's a new a new 27 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.959 orientation around the business. Or they come to me and say, 28 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:41.760 you know, do I have the right CMO, Do I 29 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:43.760 have the right cr do I have the right head 30 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.680 of sales? Like why aren't things working anymore? And so 31 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.519 these are these are the clients I help most of 32 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:49.879 the time. 33 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:51.159 Yeah, no, I love that. 34 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.400 And you know what's what's interesting is when I at 35 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:55.560 first look at the title of the book Power Surge 36 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:58.120 Five Ways of Supercharge your B two B software business 37 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:00.920 and at least hidden value, I was like, okay, And 38 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:02.920 then I started to read a little bit more into 39 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:04.719 it and then talk about some of the concepts in 40 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:09.400 there when we talk about bridging generational skill gaps and understanding, 41 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:11.439 you know, how to have a future ready workforce, and 42 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:13.879 I was like, these are the things to me. I'm 43 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.120 not in marketing, I'm not into B to B software sales, 44 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.439 but these things I think have a big chunk of 45 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:24.199 how to actually, you know, supercharge of business, how to 46 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:26.479 resolve some of the things that you just talked about 47 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:28.599 in the calls that you get. So I'd love to 48 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.840 start there, like unpack a little bit around maybe what 49 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.080 you're seeing currently in the industry, where we're going, or 50 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:37.560 where do you feel the time has to be spent 51 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:43.120 to really you know, prepare organizations to be completely supercharged 52 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.240 and to really unleash all of the hidden value, including 53 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:47.520 the human capital piece. 54 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.319 Yeah, I mean, it's one hundred percent all about getting 55 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.280 the best out of the people at the end of 56 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:56.400 the day, and a lot of the concepts in the 57 00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:00.280 book really start with having a sound business strategy that 58 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:05.439 everybody understands and everybody sees their part in. And it 59 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:10.560 sounds so simple, yet it can get so convoluted as 60 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.199 leadership kind of turns over, as people come and go, 61 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:18.080 as investors come and go. It can get really focused 62 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:23.840 on the tactics and the programs and you know, functional 63 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:27.879 silos that are hindering people who want to come to 64 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.199 work every day and just do their best work. That's 65 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:33.240 what people want to do, So you have to arm 66 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:36.680 them with an appropriate strategy, help them see their part 67 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.439 in it, and then give them the tools and enable 68 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.000 them to you know, do the best possible thing they 69 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:47.879 can by their customers. And if you have incredibly motivated, 70 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:51.599 highly focused employees, you're going to have a successful business. 71 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.639 And that's the I mean, that's the simplest way to 72 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:56.000 put it. 73 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:56.680 I love that. 74 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:01.240 And when you're thinking about finding them most highly motivated 75 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:06.039 and kind of driven and excited employees from a workforce standpoint, 76 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:09.360 and you're talking to also about you know, CEOs and 77 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.439 cmos and these types of decisions, let's unpack that a 78 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:13.960 little bit. What are you see or what are we 79 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:17.680 looking for or what you know? What should companies be 80 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.959 really considering to stand out in this space? 81 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:27.519 Well, first, there is a convergence happening across various roles 82 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.839 due to AI and the speed, scope and scale of digital. 83 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:36.600 So it used to be the various functions could be 84 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.600 successful in their own silo. And so the conversations over 85 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.759 the last ten years have been about alignment and handovers 86 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.720 and workflow and aligned KPIs and those kinds of things. 87 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.079 And it still doesn't work because the actual customer experience 88 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.759 is completely changing and the tools and technology. 89 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:56.199 Is completely changing. 90 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:03.360 So in terms of talent, you ca wean't hire for traditionally, 91 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:07.040 how you may have seen the business paradigm, because the 92 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:12.040 business paradigm is changing, So that's number one. Number two, 93 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:16.920 you should be hiring for a set of skills, experience, 94 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:21.360 or more importantly in my view, is mindset. 95 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:23.560 That you want to add to your. 96 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.279 Team to get the kind of change you want. You 97 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:27.839 don't want to hire a bunch of people that are 98 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:31.519 the same, which is very easy to do because you know, 99 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.759 people on the interview teams want to work with people 100 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:38.920 that are like them. And I've always you know, stressed 101 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.800 to my leadership teams, we need to hire for the 102 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:47.839 best combination of people, which means diverse ideas, diverse backgrounds, 103 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.120 people that are willing to challenge the status quo, Like 104 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.319 we want a range of viewpoints to come to the 105 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.680 table to come up with the best possible solution. 106 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:57.680 And you can't do that. 107 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.160 If everybody sees things the same way. And then and 108 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:04.560 then third, you know, there's certain things the company needs 109 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:06.959 to do. As I mentioned the business strategy. So if 110 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.279 you're a turnaround you're going to have a different set 111 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.439 of challenges in front of you than you are if 112 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:20.160 you are a super high growth, you know, super innovative 113 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:24.160 company with one product. It's a, it's a different DNA, 114 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.279 and oftentimes people want to hire you know, oh well, 115 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.639 I think this is this is what good experience for 116 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.240 this function is, which may not actually be what you need. 117 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:41.759 You may need better leadership versus functional experience, or better uh, 118 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:47.199 transformational leadership versus management, and those are different types of 119 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.560 things that people need to think about when they're interviewing 120 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.680 for the right group of people to work together. 121 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:54.120 Yeah, I love that. 122 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:56.839 I think that every data point will tell you that having, 123 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.480 you know, diverse leadership teams, diverse teams in general, will 124 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:02.959 always lead to like larger elements of innovation because many 125 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:06.839 times the best idea when not necessarily the loudest voice, 126 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.040 especially when you create an environment and a community where 127 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:14.160 people are are very open to debates and healthy debate 128 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:15.920 and that type of thing. I think it's so critical. 129 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.519 You mentioned mindset in the selection process, which I love. 130 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.920 I it's it's the first time that I've heard that. 131 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.279 I left a litle little bit more about that. When 132 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:28.920 you're when you're assessing for mindset or you're considering mindset, 133 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.160 what are maybe the questions that you're asking, what are 134 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.560 you looking for? How are you feeling like okay, this 135 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:37.839 is this is good from a mindset that we need 136 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:39.800 when it comes to adding to our team. 137 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:43.720 Yeah, so I can just speak for you know, my practices. 138 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:47.519 Everybody might have different viewpoints, but I really look for 139 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:53.399 people over experience. I look for people who've had to 140 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:59.040 overcome something really really hard and impossible, even if they failed, 141 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:07.040 because to me, people who tend to be faced with 142 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.680 really big challenges and it could be in their personal life, 143 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.279 it could be you know, a medical condition, it could 144 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:15.800 be something like this, you know, where they've been faced 145 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:18.480 they they have to be resilient and they have to 146 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.240 continue to work through it right. And to me, those 147 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:27.839 people are really great problem solvers and can drive to 148 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:28.519 a result. 149 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.480 And that's what I've found to be true. 150 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.559 And those are the types of people, you know, I've 151 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:35.799 I've wanted to hire for even if there's someone who 152 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.159 comes from maybe a big brand, you know, who's had 153 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.120 more experiencer and an Ivy League school, like I would rather 154 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:47.200 have someone who's streets smart and scrappy and resilient than 155 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:49.519 someone with multiple degrees personally. 156 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:50.919 Yeah, I love that. 157 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.000 It's it's because it reminded me of a question that 158 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:55.639 I like to ask, which is like, tell me about 159 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.840 a time when you, you know, achieved a goal that 160 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:02.279 you surprise yourself with, that you weren't sure that you'd 161 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.039 be able to achieve, and that you felt, you know, 162 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:07.840 you almost exceeded your own expectations and you felt, you know, 163 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:10.080 you felt amazed at yourself for achieving it. And I 164 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:14.000 think it's it's in that same kind of breath of 165 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:17.080 that idea, because what I hear many times is everything 166 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.639 from like, I really had to get scrappy. I had 167 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:22.519 to persevere. I had to you know, get myself through 168 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:27.080 this thing, whether it be a health challenge, a school challenge, 169 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:29.519 you know, a financial challenge. Like you you said, you 170 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:32.440 tend to hear these real stories from people that help 171 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:35.279 you to kind of you know, see maybe the the 172 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.399 challenges that they've had, how they've had to persevere. And 173 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:40.279 I think you're you're so spot on, like that's such 174 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:44.840 an important piece of somebody who's going to really hold 175 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.919 on to and commit to and stand on you know 176 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.200 what they're looking to accomplish and achieve, and they're gonna 177 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.120 learn and they're gonna you know, they're they're gonna adjust 178 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.440 as needed, but they're not gonna give up and that's 179 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:57.519 kind of what we're looking for. 180 00:09:57.559 --> 00:09:59.840 I think it's such a great call out, right. 181 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.200 Yeah, that's for sure. And I think people who are 182 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.559 also have different ways that looking at problems. That goes 183 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:08.159 back to your diversity thing. I mean, for one hundred years, 184 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:10.320 I was the only female at the table half the. 185 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:11.840 Time in B to B tech. 186 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.840 It's changing a bit, but you know, we'd like it 187 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:20.519 to be a little further along on that spectrum. And sometimes, 188 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:22.960 you know, you just have to take you have to 189 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:27.039 be courageous and brave to bring up what you're thinking, 190 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.120 and people will look at you crazy, like you're like 191 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.600 like they don't like you're speaking a different language kind of. 192 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.879 But then ten minutes later someone will bring up the 193 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:40.440 same idea using different words and it sticks, and you 194 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.240 know it, it's hard sometimes to swallow that, but the 195 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:48.120 point is somewhere you triggered the thought and it can 196 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.120 often lead to other ideas or even the same idea. 197 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:56.519 And what matters is the forward progress, not the initial reaction. 198 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:59.159 And I think I think that's an important thing, you know, 199 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.840 as executive kind of come up through their journey, you know, 200 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:09.960 just to be really courageous with your convictions because it's 201 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.159 likely that a few other people at the table see 202 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:14.000 what you see but can't put it into words. 203 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:15.919 I want to ask you, Holly, a little bit more 204 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:19.360 about that kind of the gap of grief concept that 205 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:23.600 you have and talking about the importance of building trust 206 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.960 within relationships, and maybe even going a little bit further. 207 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:27.279 You mentioned this earlier, but like. 208 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.840 This important piece of the evolution of something like sales 209 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.759 and marketing. What are we seeing in the industry and 210 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.480 why this is something we want to talk about from 211 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:40.240 a leadership standpoint, Why this is really important to how 212 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.279 you know how and where this will impact your organizations 213 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:44.399 from a success standpoint. 214 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.320 Yeah, So, the best way to articulate the problem is 215 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:56.039 there is a tendency for CEOs to not always understand 216 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.039 what their head of marketing is trying to do. And 217 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.639 a lot of it the root cause, nine times out 218 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:10.440 of ten is the understanding that marketing and sales can't 219 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:15.720 actually execute well if there isn't a business strategy. So 220 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:20.440 oftentimes I'll get calls by clients and they'll say, oh, 221 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:22.679 you know, I don't have the right CMO. You know, 222 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.519 my CMO is terrible, and you know, and they'll literally 223 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.000 use those words, and I'll say, well, what's your business 224 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.960 strategy and they'll say growth, and I'll say, growth is 225 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.039 not a strategy, let's start over. And it really takes 226 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.799 time for them to understand they actually don't have a strategy, 227 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.759 and a business strategy like a growth plan on a spreadsheet, 228 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.399 you know, where all the numbers show. Growth is not 229 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:51.080 a strategy, right, it's a spreadsheet and growth is an 230 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:55.759 outcome of having a good strategy. So this is the 231 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.279 number one root cause I see of this gap of 232 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.559 grief where the CMO or the head of sales is like, 233 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.600 I want to do X, Y Z, and the CEO 234 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.840 is like, well, you know, I don't understand how this 235 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.759 aligns and why aren't the KPIs adding up? 236 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:11.840 Why can't I get the ROI why can't I do 237 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:12.559 these things? 238 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.840 And it's because sometimes these functional leaders are trying to 239 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:19.159 do so much of everything in the name of growth 240 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.039 that they're not actually doing anything well, and so it 241 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:28.799 causes a lot of bad expectations I think across the board, 242 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:35.600 and once the expectation conversation goes sideways, you lose trust. So, 243 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.279 you know, the CEO no longer trust the marketing or 244 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:44.559 sales executive to execute because they can't actually understand what 245 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:45.840 they're trying to get done. 246 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.240 And it's a fascinating thing to watch. 247 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.440 It's happened to me a few times. And you know, 248 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.360 I remember the first few times that happened in my career, 249 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.799 I was like, what is going on? It's like, I'm 250 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:00.000 explaining it, but it's not getting through. And you know, oftentimes, 251 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:04.039 especially in tech in my in my world, in cybersecurity 252 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:09.879 in particular, you know, the CEOs are technologists, right, so 253 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:13.519 they tend to even have a different orientation from a 254 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:17.399 sales and marketing executive who's thinking about the narrative, you know, 255 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:23.200 the relationship, the storyline, you know, the messaging, the market 256 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:26.919 segments and things like this that don't necessarily translate. So 257 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.759 I think it's a two part problem. You know, it's 258 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:30.519 a root cause of not having a business strategy you're 259 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:34.799 relying to, and it's also just different sides of the brain, 260 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.840 you know, trying to communicate. 261 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:39.200 Yeah, No, it's a great call out, and I think 262 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.320 it's you know, there's always been I believe a maybe 263 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.360 tension between sales and marketing, right because it's kind of 264 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.879 like that we just want to sell things we're trying to, 265 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.000 to your point, have a narrative and spend money in 266 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:52.960 getting this out there, and then it's kind of like 267 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.960 who gets the credit for what type of thing? And 268 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.799 I think most in all really successful businesses understand that 269 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.080 both are needed. But to your point, that business strategy 270 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.799 piece the actual thing to point to and say this 271 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.039 is the plan and we all have a part to 272 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:09.360 play in this plan, I think is. 273 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.320 Something that that's very needed. 274 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:16.279 So what happens if somebody, you know, reading the book, 275 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.000 listening to this podcast, is like, Hey, I'm in this 276 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.039 space right now, or I see that we have this 277 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:25.200 in our organization where there's either that element of a 278 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.440 gap of grief or we're seeing where we're kind of 279 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.759 combining these roles in our organization. You know, talk to 280 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.200 us a little bit about like what you do in 281 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.399 those instances, what you would suggest for them to go do, 282 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.120 how they would be able to work through these situations. 283 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:42.159 Right. 284 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:47.159 Well, the book I put together specifically for marketing leaders. 285 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.799 But what I do is I coach for. 286 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.159 Modern go to market transformations across the board, so CMO 287 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:00.519 CROs and heads of customer success and support, and the 288 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.320 first order of business is really to determine what quadrant 289 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.120 your business is in. You know, are you a market leader. 290 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.519 If you are, you probably don't need help. You know, 291 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.240 if you're a startup or early innovator, that solves it. 292 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.679 You have to you're you don't have really a lot 293 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:20.039 of customers, yet you're focused on actually just landing and 294 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.480 breaking through the noise quite frankly, because a lot of 295 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.480 these these types of industries are really frothy. And then 296 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:31.080 the other two quadrants are really you're transitioning or you're 297 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.399 going through a transformation to go from you know, your 298 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.440 current state to a future state. So the most common 299 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.360 one I hear all the time is we're going from 300 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.960 a product company to a platform company that would be 301 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:46.240 an example, or or from a set of features and 302 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.279 use cases to a set of services. You know, there's 303 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.720 like a different orientation on that. And then the fourth 304 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.120 quadrant is really you're retrenching, you're losing your customer base. 305 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.679 You've been around a long time, super legacy and it's 306 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:03.759 a turnaround. And I've seen a lot of companies honestly 307 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.720 try to compete in their go to market as a 308 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:13.559 market leader or as an innovator, when really they're a turnaround, 309 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.799 or maybe they think they're a transformational company when they're 310 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:21.359 actually a turnaround and so their go to market strategy 311 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.920 and their narrative isn't aligned to the actual business situation. 312 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.599 So the customers get confused, you know, because you're sort 313 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:32.839 of saying, oh, well, we have all these innovative solutions. 314 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.799 So your customers like, seriously, you can't even support my support, 315 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.359 you know, like a I have five tickets into you 316 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.279 that you ever responded to. So it has to match, 317 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.599 you know, to have integrity. And so in the book, 318 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.759 I kind of outline some very practical steps to do this, 319 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:52.640 you know if you're a head of marketing. 320 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.119 But I have taken it one step. 321 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.039 Further to offer a go to market challenge across the board, because, 322 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:01.960 as I mentioned before, I see the roles converging with 323 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.240 AI and a digital first customer experience, and so that 324 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.960 whole model needs to change. So the search challenge is 325 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.039 really an attempt to get more high potential talent in 326 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.599 whether you're from sales marketing or customer success and formulate 327 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:22.680 a more modern way your company can be fully customer 328 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.440 obsessed around the customer experience and delivering that digital first. 329 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:31.319 So it's meant my goal in life is really to 330 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:35.599 just get people into the modern age and start thinking 331 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:43.000 differently and helping people, you know, really accelerate their experience level. 332 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.839 As I mentioned to you I offline as we were 333 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.279 sort of getting ready for the call, I have thirty 334 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.319 years of experience, but we don't have time for the 335 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.279 person with ten years of experience. We have twenty more 336 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:55.319 years to get them up to speed. Like we need 337 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.960 so many good go to market leaders. We need to 338 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.200 build a bench and really accelerate this thing. 339 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.680 So that's that's the hope. 340 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.640 Yeah, I love that, And it's a there's so many 341 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.759 things in there that I think, uh, you know, really 342 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.279 resonate with leaders kind of at all levels in regards 343 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.920 to just the the understanding of what where we are. 344 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.480 Today, where we're going, and what's needed. 345 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:19.960 And I think you just spoke about that, like the 346 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:24.480 the need for new ideas kind of you know, fearless 347 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.440 innovators coming into the space. But then also to have 348 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.759 a winning strategy, you have to have current leaders that 349 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.039 are open to that and that are creating the space 350 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:33.960 for those to kind of come in there. 351 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:37.480 So if if if you've got let's. 352 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.119 Say that I'm a leader and I see some of 353 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.039 these struggles in my own business right now, what would 354 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.880 be maybe the one or two things that you would 355 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.799 suggest that I do to number one maybe better self 356 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.559 assess am I you know, I love you talked about 357 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:52.599 kind of like you think you're this, but really you're 358 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:54.640 probably that, and did these things type of match Like, 359 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:56.440 what would you say that I need to do to 360 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.640 really self assess maybe where my business is? And then 361 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:01.960 what's something maybe a couple things I should do as 362 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.279 a leader if I really want to help to move 363 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.920 my business forward in how I show up as a 364 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.720 leader of people in my own business. 365 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.000 Yeah, I mean, I think the first question is really 366 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:17.519 understanding the condition of the business and on the marketing 367 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.319 and sometimes the customer's success side. And I'm generalizing and 368 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:26.720 everybody's different. There's not always a deep dive that they've 369 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.119 done into the condition of the business from the perspective 370 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:35.920 of the investor, right, so let me just dig into that. 371 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.480 So for example, everybody will be saying grow, grow, grow, 372 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.119 but then there's just this myopic focus on ebadah and 373 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:48.480 cash flow and there isn't an understanding of how overleveraged 374 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.759 the business is. To be able to actually invest in growth, 375 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.519 and so the executive team will be saying grow, grow, grow, 376 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.279 but there's actually no way to make the changes is 377 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.640 to enable that to happen. So if you understand the 378 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.880 condition of the business from an investor perspective and dig 379 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.519 into that with the CFO, ask as many questions as 380 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.240 possible to understand, I think there would there would be 381 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.200 a good context for why it's so hard to get. 382 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.160 Some things done sometimes. So that's kind of point number one. 383 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:30.039 Point number two is this generational thing is fascinating both 384 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.519 my kids. I have kids now in their late twenties 385 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.400 and they're in tech and they're they're on their own journey, 386 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:44.519 but they completely look at problems differently because they're digital native, right, and. 387 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.000 A lot of us are gonna want to go at. 388 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.440 Some point retire, you know, and these people are coming in, 389 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.319 but we need them up to speed quicker, and we 390 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.400 need them to be we need to be able to 391 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.880 give them a really long long leash, you know, like 392 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:07.240 go for it. And because they completely look at. 393 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:08.960 You know, the. 394 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.759 Customer experience differently and see things that aren't encumbered by 395 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.799 you know, our legacy views of what we think works 396 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.160 or doesn't work or did work or didn't work or 397 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.920 used to work at some big company but won't work here. 398 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.200 You know, like we need to like give them the 399 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.160 ability to own a problem and solve it their way, 400 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:34.440 because the customers and buyers are actually more like them than. 401 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:35.160