Speaker 1: Well, hello, and welcome back everyone to another leadership author
Speaker 1: series episode. Extremely excited today to welcome someone that I
Speaker 1: think has not only some amazing content a great book,
Speaker 1: but some fantastic ideas and theories and concepts around.
Speaker 2: Leadership in general.
Speaker 1: Where we are today, where we're going, what we need,
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 2: So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: We have Holly Rolo here B to B marketing and
Speaker 1: transformation expert and author. So welcome to the show, Holly,
Speaker 1: and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I've been
Speaker 3: around about three decades and B to B tech, and
Speaker 3: I've seen a lot and over the years, I've gotten
Speaker 3: very attracted to and good at helping companies go through
Speaker 3: major transformation periods or major transitions, whether it's transforming to
Speaker 3: a platform company, transforming into a new customer base or
Speaker 3: market area, or even turnarounds. So I've been involved in
Speaker 3: quite a few transactions and so that's that's what I
Speaker 3: focus on, and I help cmos, CROs CEOs help kind
Speaker 3: of position their company for you know, what they're trying
Speaker 3: to do next. And most of the people that come
Speaker 3: to me are organizations where either what they were doing
Speaker 3: no longer works, or they've had a change in how
Speaker 3: their investors think about their business. So maybe they've been
Speaker 3: purchased by private equity and there's a new a new
Speaker 3: orientation around the business. Or they come to me and say,
Speaker 3: you know, do I have the right CMO, Do I
Speaker 3: have the right cr do I have the right head
Speaker 3: of sales? Like why aren't things working anymore? And so
Speaker 3: these are these are the clients I help most of
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 1: And you know what's what's interesting is when I at
Speaker 1: first look at the title of the book Power Surge
Speaker 1: Five Ways of Supercharge your B two B software business
Speaker 1: and at least hidden value, I was like, okay, And
Speaker 1: then I started to read a little bit more into
Speaker 1: it and then talk about some of the concepts in
Speaker 1: there when we talk about bridging generational skill gaps and understanding,
Speaker 1: you know, how to have a future ready workforce, and
Speaker 1: I was like, these are the things to me. I'm
Speaker 1: not in marketing, I'm not into B to B software sales,
Speaker 1: but these things I think have a big chunk of
Speaker 1: how to actually, you know, supercharge of business, how to
Speaker 1: resolve some of the things that you just talked about
Speaker 1: in the calls that you get. So I'd love to
Speaker 1: start there, like unpack a little bit around maybe what
Speaker 1: you're seeing currently in the industry, where we're going, or
Speaker 1: where do you feel the time has to be spent
Speaker 1: to really you know, prepare organizations to be completely supercharged
Speaker 1: and to really unleash all of the hidden value, including
Speaker 1: the human capital piece.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's one hundred percent all about getting
Speaker 3: the best out of the people at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, and a lot of the concepts in the
Speaker 3: book really start with having a sound business strategy that
Speaker 3: everybody understands and everybody sees their part in. And it
Speaker 3: sounds so simple, yet it can get so convoluted as
Speaker 3: leadership kind of turns over, as people come and go,
Speaker 3: as investors come and go. It can get really focused
Speaker 3: on the tactics and the programs and you know, functional
Speaker 3: silos that are hindering people who want to come to
Speaker 3: work every day and just do their best work. That's
Speaker 3: what people want to do, So you have to arm
Speaker 3: them with an appropriate strategy, help them see their part
Speaker 3: in it, and then give them the tools and enable
Speaker 3: them to you know, do the best possible thing they
Speaker 3: can by their customers. And if you have incredibly motivated,
Speaker 3: highly focused employees, you're going to have a successful business.
Speaker 4: And that's the I mean, that's the simplest way to
Speaker 4: put it.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: And when you're thinking about finding them most highly motivated
Speaker 1: and kind of driven and excited employees from a workforce standpoint,
Speaker 1: and you're talking to also about you know, CEOs and
Speaker 1: cmos and these types of decisions, let's unpack that a
Speaker 1: little bit. What are you see or what are we
Speaker 1: looking for or what you know? What should companies be
Speaker 1: really considering to stand out in this space?
Speaker 3: Well, first, there is a convergence happening across various roles
Speaker 3: due to AI and the speed, scope and scale of digital.
Speaker 3: So it used to be the various functions could be
Speaker 3: successful in their own silo. And so the conversations over
Speaker 3: the last ten years have been about alignment and handovers
Speaker 3: and workflow and aligned KPIs and those kinds of things.
Speaker 3: And it still doesn't work because the actual customer experience
Speaker 3: is completely changing and the tools and technology.
Speaker 4: Is completely changing.
Speaker 3: So in terms of talent, you ca wean't hire for traditionally,
Speaker 3: how you may have seen the business paradigm, because the
Speaker 3: business paradigm is changing, So that's number one. Number two,
Speaker 3: you should be hiring for a set of skills, experience,
Speaker 3: or more importantly in my view, is mindset.
Speaker 4: That you want to add to your.
Speaker 3: Team to get the kind of change you want. You
Speaker 3: don't want to hire a bunch of people that are
Speaker 3: the same, which is very easy to do because you know,
Speaker 3: people on the interview teams want to work with people
Speaker 3: that are like them. And I've always you know, stressed
Speaker 3: to my leadership teams, we need to hire for the
Speaker 3: best combination of people, which means diverse ideas, diverse backgrounds,
Speaker 3: people that are willing to challenge the status quo, Like
Speaker 3: we want a range of viewpoints to come to the
Speaker 3: table to come up with the best possible solution.
Speaker 4: And you can't do that.
Speaker 3: If everybody sees things the same way. And then and
Speaker 3: then third, you know, there's certain things the company needs
Speaker 3: to do. As I mentioned the business strategy. So if
Speaker 3: you're a turnaround you're going to have a different set
Speaker 3: of challenges in front of you than you are if
Speaker 3: you are a super high growth, you know, super innovative
Speaker 3: company with one product. It's a, it's a different DNA,
Speaker 3: and oftentimes people want to hire you know, oh well,
Speaker 3: I think this is this is what good experience for
Speaker 3: this function is, which may not actually be what you need.
Speaker 3: You may need better leadership versus functional experience, or better uh,
Speaker 3: transformational leadership versus management, and those are different types of
Speaker 3: things that people need to think about when they're interviewing
Speaker 3: for the right group of people to work together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: I think that every data point will tell you that having,
Speaker 1: you know, diverse leadership teams, diverse teams in general, will
Speaker 1: always lead to like larger elements of innovation because many
Speaker 1: times the best idea when not necessarily the loudest voice,
Speaker 1: especially when you create an environment and a community where
Speaker 1: people are are very open to debates and healthy debate
Speaker 1: and that type of thing. I think it's so critical.
Speaker 1: You mentioned mindset in the selection process, which I love.
Speaker 1: I it's it's the first time that I've heard that.
Speaker 1: I left a litle little bit more about that. When
Speaker 1: you're when you're assessing for mindset or you're considering mindset,
Speaker 1: what are maybe the questions that you're asking, what are
Speaker 1: you looking for? How are you feeling like okay, this
Speaker 1: is this is good from a mindset that we need
Speaker 1: when it comes to adding to our team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I can just speak for you know, my practices.
Speaker 3: Everybody might have different viewpoints, but I really look for
Speaker 3: people over experience. I look for people who've had to
Speaker 3: overcome something really really hard and impossible, even if they failed,
Speaker 3: because to me, people who tend to be faced with
Speaker 3: really big challenges and it could be in their personal life,
Speaker 3: it could be you know, a medical condition, it could
Speaker 3: be something like this, you know, where they've been faced
Speaker 3: they they have to be resilient and they have to
Speaker 3: continue to work through it right. And to me, those
Speaker 3: people are really great problem solvers and can drive to
Speaker 3: a result.
Speaker 4: And that's what I've found to be true.
Speaker 3: And those are the types of people, you know, I've
Speaker 3: I've wanted to hire for even if there's someone who
Speaker 3: comes from maybe a big brand, you know, who's had
Speaker 3: more experiencer and an Ivy League school, like I would rather
Speaker 3: have someone who's streets smart and scrappy and resilient than
Speaker 3: someone with multiple degrees personally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: It's it's because it reminded me of a question that
Speaker 1: I like to ask, which is like, tell me about
Speaker 1: a time when you, you know, achieved a goal that
Speaker 1: you surprise yourself with, that you weren't sure that you'd
Speaker 1: be able to achieve, and that you felt, you know,
Speaker 1: you almost exceeded your own expectations and you felt, you know,
Speaker 1: you felt amazed at yourself for achieving it. And I
Speaker 1: think it's it's in that same kind of breath of
Speaker 1: that idea, because what I hear many times is everything
Speaker 1: from like, I really had to get scrappy. I had
Speaker 1: to persevere. I had to you know, get myself through
Speaker 1: this thing, whether it be a health challenge, a school challenge,
Speaker 1: you know, a financial challenge. Like you you said, you
Speaker 1: tend to hear these real stories from people that help
Speaker 1: you to kind of you know, see maybe the the
Speaker 1: challenges that they've had, how they've had to persevere. And
Speaker 1: I think you're you're so spot on, like that's such
Speaker 1: an important piece of somebody who's going to really hold
Speaker 1: on to and commit to and stand on you know
Speaker 1: what they're looking to accomplish and achieve, and they're gonna
Speaker 1: learn and they're gonna you know, they're they're gonna adjust
Speaker 1: as needed, but they're not gonna give up and that's
Speaker 1: kind of what we're looking for.
Speaker 2: I think it's such a great call out, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for sure. And I think people who are
Speaker 3: also have different ways that looking at problems. That goes
Speaker 3: back to your diversity thing. I mean, for one hundred years,
Speaker 3: I was the only female at the table half the.
Speaker 4: Time in B to B tech.
Speaker 3: It's changing a bit, but you know, we'd like it
Speaker 3: to be a little further along on that spectrum. And sometimes,
Speaker 3: you know, you just have to take you have to
Speaker 3: be courageous and brave to bring up what you're thinking,
Speaker 3: and people will look at you crazy, like you're like
Speaker 3: like they don't like you're speaking a different language kind of.
Speaker 3: But then ten minutes later someone will bring up the
Speaker 3: same idea using different words and it sticks, and you
Speaker 3: know it, it's hard sometimes to swallow that, but the
Speaker 3: point is somewhere you triggered the thought and it can
Speaker 3: often lead to other ideas or even the same idea.
Speaker 3: And what matters is the forward progress, not the initial reaction.
Speaker 3: And I think I think that's an important thing, you know,
Speaker 3: as executive kind of come up through their journey, you know,
Speaker 3: just to be really courageous with your convictions because it's
Speaker 3: likely that a few other people at the table see
Speaker 3: what you see but can't put it into words.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, Holly, a little bit more
Speaker 1: about that kind of the gap of grief concept that
Speaker 1: you have and talking about the importance of building trust
Speaker 1: within relationships, and maybe even going a little bit further.
Speaker 2: You mentioned this earlier, but like.
Speaker 1: This important piece of the evolution of something like sales
Speaker 1: and marketing. What are we seeing in the industry and
Speaker 1: why this is something we want to talk about from
Speaker 1: a leadership standpoint, Why this is really important to how
Speaker 1: you know how and where this will impact your organizations
Speaker 1: from a success standpoint.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the best way to articulate the problem is
Speaker 3: there is a tendency for CEOs to not always understand
Speaker 3: what their head of marketing is trying to do. And
Speaker 3: a lot of it the root cause, nine times out
Speaker 3: of ten is the understanding that marketing and sales can't
Speaker 3: actually execute well if there isn't a business strategy. So
Speaker 3: oftentimes I'll get calls by clients and they'll say, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't have the right CMO. You know,
Speaker 3: my CMO is terrible, and you know, and they'll literally
Speaker 3: use those words, and I'll say, well, what's your business
Speaker 3: strategy and they'll say growth, and I'll say, growth is
Speaker 3: not a strategy, let's start over. And it really takes
Speaker 3: time for them to understand they actually don't have a strategy,
Speaker 3: and a business strategy like a growth plan on a spreadsheet,
Speaker 3: you know, where all the numbers show. Growth is not
Speaker 3: a strategy, right, it's a spreadsheet and growth is an
Speaker 3: outcome of having a good strategy. So this is the
Speaker 3: number one root cause I see of this gap of
Speaker 3: grief where the CMO or the head of sales is like,
Speaker 3: I want to do X, Y Z, and the CEO
Speaker 3: is like, well, you know, I don't understand how this
Speaker 3: aligns and why aren't the KPIs adding up?
Speaker 4: Why can't I get the ROI why can't I do
Speaker 4: these things?
Speaker 3: And it's because sometimes these functional leaders are trying to
Speaker 3: do so much of everything in the name of growth
Speaker 3: that they're not actually doing anything well, and so it
Speaker 3: causes a lot of bad expectations I think across the board,
Speaker 3: and once the expectation conversation goes sideways, you lose trust. So,
Speaker 3: you know, the CEO no longer trust the marketing or
Speaker 3: sales executive to execute because they can't actually understand what
Speaker 3: they're trying to get done.
Speaker 4: And it's a fascinating thing to watch.
Speaker 3: It's happened to me a few times. And you know,
Speaker 3: I remember the first few times that happened in my career,
Speaker 3: I was like, what is going on? It's like, I'm
Speaker 3: explaining it, but it's not getting through. And you know, oftentimes,
Speaker 3: especially in tech in my in my world, in cybersecurity
Speaker 3: in particular, you know, the CEOs are technologists, right, so
Speaker 3: they tend to even have a different orientation from a
Speaker 3: sales and marketing executive who's thinking about the narrative, you know,
Speaker 3: the relationship, the storyline, you know, the messaging, the market
Speaker 3: segments and things like this that don't necessarily translate. So
Speaker 3: I think it's a two part problem. You know, it's
Speaker 3: a root cause of not having a business strategy you're
Speaker 3: relying to, and it's also just different sides of the brain,
Speaker 3: you know, trying to communicate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's a great call out, and I think
Speaker 1: it's you know, there's always been I believe a maybe
Speaker 1: tension between sales and marketing, right because it's kind of
Speaker 1: like that we just want to sell things we're trying to,
Speaker 1: to your point, have a narrative and spend money in
Speaker 1: getting this out there, and then it's kind of like
Speaker 1: who gets the credit for what type of thing? And
Speaker 1: I think most in all really successful businesses understand that
Speaker 1: both are needed. But to your point, that business strategy
Speaker 1: piece the actual thing to point to and say this
Speaker 1: is the plan and we all have a part to
Speaker 1: play in this plan, I think is.
Speaker 2: Something that that's very needed.
Speaker 1: So what happens if somebody, you know, reading the book,
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, is like, Hey, I'm in this
Speaker 1: space right now, or I see that we have this
Speaker 1: in our organization where there's either that element of a
Speaker 1: gap of grief or we're seeing where we're kind of
Speaker 1: combining these roles in our organization. You know, talk to
Speaker 1: us a little bit about like what you do in
Speaker 1: those instances, what you would suggest for them to go do,
Speaker 1: how they would be able to work through these situations.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: Well, the book I put together specifically for marketing leaders.
Speaker 4: But what I do is I coach for.
Speaker 3: Modern go to market transformations across the board, so CMO
Speaker 3: CROs and heads of customer success and support, and the
Speaker 3: first order of business is really to determine what quadrant
Speaker 3: your business is in. You know, are you a market leader.
Speaker 3: If you are, you probably don't need help. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're a startup or early innovator, that solves it.
Speaker 3: You have to you're you don't have really a lot
Speaker 3: of customers, yet you're focused on actually just landing and
Speaker 3: breaking through the noise quite frankly, because a lot of
Speaker 3: these these types of industries are really frothy. And then
Speaker 3: the other two quadrants are really you're transitioning or you're
Speaker 3: going through a transformation to go from you know, your
Speaker 3: current state to a future state. So the most common
Speaker 3: one I hear all the time is we're going from
Speaker 3: a product company to a platform company that would be
Speaker 3: an example, or or from a set of features and
Speaker 3: use cases to a set of services. You know, there's
Speaker 3: like a different orientation on that. And then the fourth
Speaker 3: quadrant is really you're retrenching, you're losing your customer base.
Speaker 3: You've been around a long time, super legacy and it's
Speaker 3: a turnaround. And I've seen a lot of companies honestly
Speaker 3: try to compete in their go to market as a
Speaker 3: market leader or as an innovator, when really they're a turnaround,
Speaker 3: or maybe they think they're a transformational company when they're
Speaker 3: actually a turnaround and so their go to market strategy
Speaker 3: and their narrative isn't aligned to the actual business situation.
Speaker 3: So the customers get confused, you know, because you're sort
Speaker 3: of saying, oh, well, we have all these innovative solutions.
Speaker 3: So your customers like, seriously, you can't even support my support,
Speaker 3: you know, like a I have five tickets into you
Speaker 3: that you ever responded to. So it has to match,
Speaker 3: you know, to have integrity. And so in the book,
Speaker 3: I kind of outline some very practical steps to do this,
Speaker 3: you know if you're a head of marketing.
Speaker 4: But I have taken it one step.
Speaker 3: Further to offer a go to market challenge across the board, because,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned before, I see the roles converging with
Speaker 3: AI and a digital first customer experience, and so that
Speaker 3: whole model needs to change. So the search challenge is
Speaker 3: really an attempt to get more high potential talent in
Speaker 3: whether you're from sales marketing or customer success and formulate
Speaker 3: a more modern way your company can be fully customer
Speaker 3: obsessed around the customer experience and delivering that digital first.
Speaker 3: So it's meant my goal in life is really to
Speaker 3: just get people into the modern age and start thinking
Speaker 3: differently and helping people, you know, really accelerate their experience level.
Speaker 3: As I mentioned to you I offline as we were
Speaker 3: sort of getting ready for the call, I have thirty
Speaker 3: years of experience, but we don't have time for the
Speaker 3: person with ten years of experience. We have twenty more
Speaker 3: years to get them up to speed. Like we need
Speaker 3: so many good go to market leaders. We need to
Speaker 3: build a bench and really accelerate this thing.
Speaker 4: So that's that's the hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, And it's a there's so many
Speaker 1: things in there that I think, uh, you know, really
Speaker 1: resonate with leaders kind of at all levels in regards
Speaker 1: to just the the understanding of what where we are.
Speaker 2: Today, where we're going, and what's needed.
Speaker 1: And I think you just spoke about that, like the
Speaker 1: the need for new ideas kind of you know, fearless
Speaker 1: innovators coming into the space. But then also to have
Speaker 1: a winning strategy, you have to have current leaders that
Speaker 1: are open to that and that are creating the space
Speaker 1: for those to kind of come in there.
Speaker 2: So if if if you've got let's.
Speaker 1: Say that I'm a leader and I see some of
Speaker 1: these struggles in my own business right now, what would
Speaker 1: be maybe the one or two things that you would
Speaker 1: suggest that I do to number one maybe better self
Speaker 1: assess am I you know, I love you talked about
Speaker 1: kind of like you think you're this, but really you're
Speaker 1: probably that, and did these things type of match Like,
Speaker 1: what would you say that I need to do to
Speaker 1: really self assess maybe where my business is? And then
Speaker 1: what's something maybe a couple things I should do as
Speaker 1: a leader if I really want to help to move
Speaker 1: my business forward in how I show up as a
Speaker 1: leader of people in my own business.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the first question is really
Speaker 3: understanding the condition of the business and on the marketing
Speaker 3: and sometimes the customer's success side. And I'm generalizing and
Speaker 3: everybody's different. There's not always a deep dive that they've
Speaker 3: done into the condition of the business from the perspective
Speaker 3: of the investor, right, so let me just dig into that.
Speaker 3: So for example, everybody will be saying grow, grow, grow,
Speaker 3: but then there's just this myopic focus on ebadah and
Speaker 3: cash flow and there isn't an understanding of how overleveraged
Speaker 3: the business is. To be able to actually invest in growth,
Speaker 3: and so the executive team will be saying grow, grow, grow,
Speaker 3: but there's actually no way to make the changes is
Speaker 3: to enable that to happen. So if you understand the
Speaker 3: condition of the business from an investor perspective and dig
Speaker 3: into that with the CFO, ask as many questions as
Speaker 3: possible to understand, I think there would there would be
Speaker 3: a good context for why it's so hard to get.
Speaker 4: Some things done sometimes. So that's kind of point number one.
Speaker 3: Point number two is this generational thing is fascinating both
Speaker 3: my kids. I have kids now in their late twenties
Speaker 3: and they're in tech and they're they're on their own journey,
Speaker 3: but they completely look at problems differently because they're digital native, right, and.
Speaker 4: A lot of us are gonna want to go at.
Speaker 3: Some point retire, you know, and these people are coming in,
Speaker 3: but we need them up to speed quicker, and we
Speaker 3: need them to be we need to be able to
Speaker 3: give them a really long long leash, you know, like
Speaker 3: go for it. And because they completely look at.
Speaker 2: You know, the.
Speaker 3: Customer experience differently and see things that aren't encumbered by
Speaker 3: you know, our legacy views of what we think works
Speaker 3: or doesn't work or did work or didn't work or
Speaker 3: used to work at some big company but won't work here.
Speaker 3: You know, like we need to like give them the
Speaker 3: ability to own a problem and solve it their way,
Speaker 3: because the customers and buyers are actually more like them than.
Speaker 4: They are like us.
Speaker 3: So I really really think it's important to bring in
Speaker 3: high potentials, give them a problem to solve, and give
Speaker 3: them the decision authority to get it done. And it
Speaker 3: also helps the rest of the organization and the culture
Speaker 3: understand that age isn't an issue, like the problem and
Speaker 3: the solution are the issue, and I think that that
Speaker 3: builds a really healthy environment.
Speaker 4: There's one client I'm working with.
Speaker 3: They were using language like you know, the old guard
Speaker 3: and the new guard, and I was like, you have
Speaker 3: to stop because you're creating camps, right, And it's good.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's great that you recognize it, but it's
Speaker 3: not in us versus them. It's you know, solving the
Speaker 3: problem looking at it through a different lens, and this
Speaker 3: is where we need to get to.
Speaker 2: Yep. I love that.
Speaker 1: Well, Holly, please let our listeners know like where we're
Speaker 1: going to get more information kind of about you, about
Speaker 1: the book and especially those that might be listening they're like, hey,
Speaker 1: I could use some help here.
Speaker 2: What are the best ways for them to get in
Speaker 2: touch with you?
Speaker 4: Yes's great.
Speaker 3: Well, visit my website at www dot Surge dash Strategies
Speaker 3: dot com and you can learn more about what I do,
Speaker 3: more about the book, but most importantly, I think check
Speaker 3: out the Surge Go to Market Challenge. I would love
Speaker 3: for high potentials to you know, take a look at
Speaker 3: that and join. It's cohort based online challenge that is
Speaker 3: I think packed with very short challenges that are really
Speaker 3: in line with I think the parts of the book
Speaker 3: that are most important. But I designed it so it
Speaker 3: was very good for people whose time is really valuable.
Speaker 4: So I'd love to invite people to join that.
Speaker 2: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much again, Holly. We appreciate you
Speaker 1: for taking the time and talking to us today. Again,
Speaker 1: please check the links in the podcast description here we
Speaker 1: can get you right to Holly's website, to the book itself,
Speaker 1: to the challenge all that will be listed below. Thank
Speaker 1: you all for checking us out, and we'll talk to
Speaker 1: you all next time.