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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we produsue wisdom

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<v Speaker 1>in the past between primary secondary worlds. Andrew Snyder and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that you're here. Hey, there, welcome to this

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<v Speaker 1>bonus episode of Mythic Mind. I mentioned last time that

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of things going on here between the

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<v Speaker 1>book club, the Star Wars series, some other conversations that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm having here and there, and so you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>get some extra content here and there, and so this

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<v Speaker 1>is a bonus episode as I was able to recently

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<v Speaker 1>speak with Spencer asc You, Spencer Is. We kind of

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<v Speaker 1>have a real life connection that we've discovered through connecting

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<v Speaker 1>on X But Spencer, coming out of Tennessee, he's interested

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<v Speaker 1>in in Lewis and in you know, storytelling and fantasy,

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<v Speaker 1>fairy tale, and so he recently joined up with Mythic Mind,

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<v Speaker 1>and we decided that we wanted to plan a conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>and we decided that we would talk about Lewis, which

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<v Speaker 1>is obviously a very broad topic of conversation, and so

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<v Speaker 1>we started talking about Lewis from there. Really following in

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<v Speaker 1>this this abolition of man idea of kind of dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with the real versus the artificial. We moved from Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>to Star Wars, to Tolkien to postmodern storytelling, and we

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<v Speaker 1>kept kind of intermingling these ideas and so we cover

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of ground. It seems a little bit meandering

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<v Speaker 1>at times, but actually there's this common thread of dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with the question of the reality, especially in storytelling, and

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<v Speaker 1>how do we the question of like, how do we

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<v Speaker 1>maintain our feet firmly grounded on the real while engaging

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<v Speaker 1>with a world that has embraced the shadow. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>an easy question, but that's something that we at least

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<v Speaker 1>start to deal with this conversation. I feel like it

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<v Speaker 1>was a productive conversation. I hope that you enjoy it,

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<v Speaker 1>and let's go ahead and get started here. Oh wait,

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<v Speaker 1>but factually, before we get started that conversation, I do

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<v Speaker 1>want to mention, because we didn't include this in the

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<v Speaker 1>actual conversation we had together, that Spencer is over on

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<v Speaker 1>x at Spencer Underscore Ask You, and he recently started

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<v Speaker 1>his substack at Spencer ryanasku dot substack dot com, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'll link to both of those in the show notes

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that you follow him, make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>you sub to a substack and just continue to check

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<v Speaker 1>out what he has to offer. But now let's go

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and get into this conversation. All right, Spencer, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Mythic Mind. You know we didn't have a super

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<v Speaker 1>clear agender for this. I know we were talking about Lewis,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I guess that's where we'll start. If you

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<v Speaker 1>could just tell us a little bit about yourself, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of who you are, what you have going on, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you can go ahead and get into a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit with your your your background with Lewis.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, sure, I'm Spencer, ask you excited to be here

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<v Speaker 2>only Mythic Mind, and I am an aspiring writer just

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<v Speaker 2>recently released my substack. I've been releasing some essays and

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<v Speaker 2>also a couple of short stories, working on writing a

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<v Speaker 2>fairy tale right now, and a nonfiction book that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of dives into a lot of the things that we'll

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<v Speaker 2>be talking about today that I think really ties into

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<v Speaker 2>that hideous strength and thing, especially that book, which I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure we'll get into. And I live here in Columbia,

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<v Speaker 2>Tennessee with my wife and just really fell in love

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<v Speaker 2>with Lewis three separate times in my life. And I'll

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<v Speaker 2>kind of give a brief overview of why that happened

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<v Speaker 2>each time, and we can jump right in onto I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we could talk for hours on this stuff, I feel like,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, like most people, my first experience with

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<v Speaker 2>Lewis was the Chronicles of Narnia when I was a kid,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember I remember reading through them. And this

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<v Speaker 2>is kind of a theme for Lewis with me, where

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<v Speaker 2>the books I don't get the first time I read

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<v Speaker 2>them end up becoming my favorites down the line. As

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<v Speaker 2>a kid, I felt like the witch in the Wardrobe.

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<v Speaker 2>I very easily understood, you know, I was. I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in the church. I saw the christ allegory and

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<v Speaker 2>that story very quickly. Didn't get the Horse and his Boy,

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get the silver chair. But I still love these

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<v Speaker 2>books and I read them several times in elementary school

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<v Speaker 2>and probably the beginning of middle school as well. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I got super into like westerns and sci fi,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember I found a copy of Enders Game

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<v Speaker 2>and Dune and Hyperion by Dan Simmons and got super

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<v Speaker 2>into sci fi for a while and came back to Lewis.

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<v Speaker 2>My senior year of high school. We had this thing

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<v Speaker 2>called the Senior Project, and I was a public school

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<v Speaker 2>in Mississippi, and they let you spend an entire school

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<v Speaker 2>year researching something, and for me, I wanted to do

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<v Speaker 2>the authenticity of Christianity, Like that's what I wanted to do.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I was really into apologetics, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I got like the Least Droble books and the Josh

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<v Speaker 2>McDowell books, and they kept coming back to this argument,

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<v Speaker 2>the liar, lunatic or lord argument a C. S. Lewis

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<v Speaker 2>outlines in Mere Christianity, and he also outlines it in

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<v Speaker 2>the line of The Witch and the Wardrobe, which I had

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<v Speaker 2>forgotten about until that point. And so I went and

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<v Speaker 2>read Mere Christianity and got super into him again, read

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<v Speaker 2>some of his nonfiction things like the Screwtape Letters and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the basics. And then my senior year of college, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I got really into fantasy. But that's when

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<v Speaker 2>I read like Lord of the Rings for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>That's when I started reading things like Wheel of Time

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<v Speaker 2>and all these other big fantasy series. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>came back to C. S. Lewis during a philosophy course

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<v Speaker 2>my senior year of college. I wasn't a philosophy major.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a music major and a business major. I

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<v Speaker 2>did two years of you know, opera and composition, and

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<v Speaker 2>then decided I wanted to get some business background because

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to move to Nashville and be a country

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<v Speaker 2>music star. And my wife and I did end up

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<v Speaker 2>moving here. We did end up doing the music industry

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<v Speaker 2>for several years and got out of it. That's a

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<v Speaker 2>whole nother story. It was fun for a time. But

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<v Speaker 2>so I had one more elective and I took a

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<v Speaker 2>philosophy cat class and we read The Abolition of Man

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<v Speaker 2>and and it was it was at Liberty University, so

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<v Speaker 2>it was it was highly focused on Lewis, like that

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<v Speaker 2>he had us buy an entire collection, but we really

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<v Speaker 2>focused on Abolition of Man and it had you know,

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<v Speaker 2>mere Christianity, great divorce, grief, observed, problem of pain, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all those intablished a man. And it was after I

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<v Speaker 2>read that book that I dove into everything else. It

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<v Speaker 2>was then it was the Space Trilogy, and for me,

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<v Speaker 2>Out of the Silent Planet rocked my world. The really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting view that I'd never heard positive before about about death,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and the unfallen world and sort of that

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<v Speaker 2>medieval cosmology that Lewis is famous for. Uh, Perilandra after

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<v Speaker 2>that became my favorite, and it was it's still I

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<v Speaker 2>think a masterpiece, probably the best fictionalized account or argument

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<v Speaker 2>for both God's sovereignty and the will of his creation.

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<v Speaker 2>Thought that was brilliant. And then you get into that

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<v Speaker 2>hideous strength. And I didn't get it the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, this is strange, what's Merlin doing here?

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<v Speaker 3>You know? Who are these nice guys? You know?

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<v Speaker 2>But when I came back around again for my second

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<v Speaker 2>read through, that's when it hit me a whole new way,

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<v Speaker 2>especially kind of with what was happening in our culture,

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<v Speaker 2>this anti humanism, transhumanism, neuralink AI, all that good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>You start to realize that in a lot of ways. C. S.

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<v Speaker 2>Lewis was prophetic about these sort of things. He predicted

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<v Speaker 2>what was going to happen if we allowed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>science and progress without temperance, without being having it guided

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<v Speaker 2>by temperance and wisdom and so and it's been NonStop

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<v Speaker 2>from there, man, been NonStop from there?

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<v Speaker 1>Well good, I yeah, I appreciate that story. Nownest, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit envious in that I wasn't a super

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<v Speaker 1>active reader as a kid. I mean I did read

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<v Speaker 1>Narnia with with my parents when I was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a young kid somewhere along the way as a teenager,

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<v Speaker 1>I think I read the Screwtape letters. But beyond that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I only really discovered Lewis as an adult early,

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<v Speaker 1>just like a few years ago, when I was opened

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<v Speaker 1>up to fiction in general, starting with Tolkien. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I just kind of devoured that, and then first Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>I picked up based off you know, I asked Twitter,

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<v Speaker 1>what do I read next? The resounding answer was till

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<v Speaker 1>we have faces? So I read that, and from that

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<v Speaker 1>point I just I couldn't stop, and so I right

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<v Speaker 1>to the to you know, the Space series or Ransom series.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to say Space, right, That's that's the wrong name.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Ransom series to you know, Narnia again and elsewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, you said that Lewis is prophetic, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's true. Anyone who's read was attentively recognizes that.

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<v Speaker 1>Why do you think he was he was able to

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<v Speaker 1>have that kind of intuition about where things are headed?

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think set him up for that?

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, there are those authors that are

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<v Speaker 2>out there. Another one that comes to mind is like

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<v Speaker 2>a Doostowevski, you know, some of the great Russians, and

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<v Speaker 2>and I think guys like Wendell Berry, who's not as

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<v Speaker 2>well known, but he's still alive, he's in his nineties

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<v Speaker 2>that have an insight into maybe even it's just pattern recognition.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think, I think ultimately for Lewis, it was

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<v Speaker 2>that pre modern mind. You know, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>call him the last of the Medievals, and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like Boethius was the last of the Romans. And Lewis

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<v Speaker 2>was so so heavily invested, much like Tolkien, in the

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<v Speaker 2>medieval mind and that cosmology, and I think he understood

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<v Speaker 2>what education was about because I think, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was thinking about this yesterday, actually saw something on Twitter

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<v Speaker 2>that that made me angry, you know, of course, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that the pre modern mind, the medieval mind

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<v Speaker 2>in particular, view to education as sort of this cultivation

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<v Speaker 2>of virtue, you know, the first the first aspect of education,

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<v Speaker 2>the cultivation of virtue. And now it's just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm not saying for everyone, but I am saying

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<v Speaker 2>for some of these especially you know, stem fields and things,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's much more about credentials to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>do your one thing very well, and the cultivation of

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<v Speaker 2>virtue is not as important. And so I think for

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<v Speaker 2>him or not even addressed at all, really, And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think for him it was that he viewed the

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<v Speaker 2>world very, very differently. And it's a it's a way

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<v Speaker 2>that we it's very alien to us unless we really

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<v Speaker 2>really work hard and and read good old books and

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<v Speaker 2>think deeply and try to kind of re enchant our world,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. So what I mean by all this to

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<v Speaker 2>answer your question, I had to veer off for a second.

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<v Speaker 2>But it was like for him, literature wasn't just a

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<v Speaker 2>subject he had to study, you know, medieval literature in particular,

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<v Speaker 2>it kind of provided like a timeless way of seeing

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<v Speaker 2>the world that was lost with the advent of modernity.

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<v Speaker 3>And so for him.

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<v Speaker 2>He viewed the world as this kind of like glorious

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<v Speaker 2>icon I he used the term iconic, right, And how

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<v Speaker 2>if we with the new ignorance he called it the

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<v Speaker 2>new ignorance that came with the scientific revolution, new learning

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<v Speaker 2>and new ignorance. He wasn't, you know, completely against all

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<v Speaker 2>this learning, but he recognized that once you start to

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<v Speaker 2>concretize everything, once you begin to focus all of your

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<v Speaker 2>learning on the quantifiable, then you lose something, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you lose something. And what you lose is that understanding

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<v Speaker 2>of the universe as like a single, complex, harmonious structure

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<v Speaker 2>of divine order, you know. I mean, you can walk

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<v Speaker 2>into an old cathedral and see you know, that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of meticulous order and the saturation of light from the

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<v Speaker 2>stained glass windows and all these sorts of things, and

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<v Speaker 2>that was all a way of lifting our eyes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and really elevating. And so when naturally we focus on

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<v Speaker 2>the quantifiable, but then because we're humans and we long

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<v Speaker 2>for that cohesive mental model, the scientific world begins to

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<v Speaker 2>make judgments on the non quantifiable, but it has no

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<v Speaker 2>standing to handle ethics or theology or philosophy. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think for him, he was like, well, much like Dostowevski,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, you know, we're losing something that makes us

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<v Speaker 2>very very human. We're losing something that is going to

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<v Speaker 2>help tether us to the ethics and the virtues that

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<v Speaker 2>would make scientific progress beneficial. And actually, now we're looking

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<v Speaker 2>down the barrel of a gun that if we don't

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<v Speaker 2>get control of this thing, we're going to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be very, very bad for the world. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I think he was right, and so for him, it's

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<v Speaker 2>pattern recognition, but it comes out of his understanding that

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<v Speaker 2>if you aren't tethered via ethics or virtue to something

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<v Speaker 2>bigger than yourself, something that transcends us, then we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to run into a lot of issues. And it just

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<v Speaker 2>takes a couple of generations before that is lost. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I think right now we're kind of hopefully in

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of reawakening where people are realizing the limitations

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<v Speaker 2>of this model and starting to return. But it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to take some time. It's going to take a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of hard work and intentionality.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think that's right on. You bring up

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<v Speaker 1>this distinction between his pre modern mind versus the modern

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<v Speaker 1>or postmodern mind that we're interacting with today, And this

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<v Speaker 1>is the distinction that I make a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>in my classes that in the pre modern world, whether

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about the pagans of the classical era, your

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<v Speaker 1>Aristotle or Plato, whoever, we're talking about the medieval philosophers

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<v Speaker 1>and theologians, they all have this idea that the reality

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<v Speaker 1>is what it is, it existed before us, just beyond us,

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<v Speaker 1>and that there is a narrative playing out here. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>Plato would talk about how, you know, all things begin

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<v Speaker 1>with the good and rightly oriented are going to move

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<v Speaker 1>back in that direction, you get something very similar, adapted

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<v Speaker 1>by the likes of Augusta and adopted by the Medievals.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, all good things come from God, all good

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<v Speaker 1>things are meant to return back to God. And so

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<v Speaker 1>there is this story of reality, and the path of

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<v Speaker 1>virtue is in finding our place within that story, playing

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<v Speaker 1>the role that we are meant to fulfill. As once

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<v Speaker 1>you move into the modern era, you know, in conjunction

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<v Speaker 1>with the scientific revolution, we start to get some shifts

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<v Speaker 1>in orientation where you get philosophers like even Rene Descartes,

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<v Speaker 1>the father of modernity. The one hand, he's looking for

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<v Speaker 1>objective truth, but in a way that places himself, his

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<v Speaker 1>own subjectivity at the very center of the quest of knowledge,

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<v Speaker 1>and so it's not far removed from you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>most foundational truth I have is my own existence too.

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<v Speaker 1>All I can know is my own existence. You know

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<v Speaker 1>that that modern to postmodern move is not a very

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<v Speaker 1>big step, right, and then when you bring in the

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<v Speaker 1>scientific revolution, which came along with modernity, and now we

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<v Speaker 1>have nothing has a purpose, a tay Loss. Everything is

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<v Speaker 1>just whatever I decide to do with it. And so

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<v Speaker 1>our scientific knowledge is not about better understanding this world

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<v Speaker 1>in which we are nested. That's directed toward a common goal.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, nature is no longer our sibling. Now it's

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<v Speaker 1>just a thing we can do stuff with, yes, and

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<v Speaker 1>then that turns itself onto you know, our own bodies

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, all of that entails in the modern world.

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<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I think you're exactly right that that

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis had a much better understanding of what a thing

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<v Speaker 1>is and what a thing is for, namely human nature,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why he says that, you know, education without

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<v Speaker 1>values is and that's what we try to do, and

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<v Speaker 1>we want to have a neutral education supposedly, but he

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<v Speaker 1>said education without values just makes a man a more

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<v Speaker 1>clever devil. I think that's exactly right, that that education

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<v Speaker 1>is meant to be for the formation of the person.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>I like I like that the distinction between the pre

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<v Speaker 2>modern and the modern, you know, it's there was this

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<v Speaker 2>like like we were talking about with the medieval cathedral.

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<v Speaker 2>There's this cohesion that's focused on divine harmony and resonance.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Lewis talked about he used musical terms all

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<v Speaker 2>the time, like he used the arguments of transposition, right. So,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is very platonic in that you have the

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<v Speaker 2>let's just take a Beethoven symphony as an example. You

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<v Speaker 2>have the fullness of a thing, but you can't play

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<v Speaker 2>that on your own, and so we have we transpose

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<v Speaker 2>it to a piano. But and it's it's a reflection

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<v Speaker 2>of the real it's a reflection of the totality. But

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<v Speaker 2>it is just that it's just it's just what we

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<v Speaker 2>can put human words to. So there's something that goes

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<v Speaker 2>beyond what we can really argue with our with our

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<v Speaker 2>mouth or with our brains. And so we're doing our

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<v Speaker 2>best at, you know, creating this resonance with who we're

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to be, the ought to kind of the way

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<v Speaker 2>things ought to be and will be, to that hope

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<v Speaker 2>that he always presents. And then the modern mind sees

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<v Speaker 2>it more as a domination or power. And once again

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<v Speaker 2>that's that comes straight out of that postmodern jump like

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<v Speaker 2>you're talking about, where the only true moral decision is

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<v Speaker 2>based off of who is excuse me, is in power

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, and and that just leads to all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of problems on its face, the arguments fall apart

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<v Speaker 2>within the within the presentation of them. You don't really

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<v Speaker 2>have to rebut them because you can't make a value

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<v Speaker 2>claim at all. And yet they are making a value

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<v Speaker 2>claim about what they're saying. And so yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>that it's I think we're living in the fruits of

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of jump, and it's a it's a weird time.

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<v Speaker 1>So obviously this modern position, this post modern position of

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<v Speaker 1>you there are no transcendental, transcendental values. Yet here's how

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<v Speaker 1>we ought to put together society and here's how you

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<v Speaker 1>ought to live. Like, it's obviously irrational at the core,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's something that Lewis is demonstrating, and so recognizing that,

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<v Speaker 1>like how do we rationally engage with that, recognizing we're

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<v Speaker 1>not actually dealing with reason, Like, I don't know, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you think about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh goodness, that's you know, that's a great question. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's I think the biggest hurdle we have, because

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<v Speaker 2>you're dealing with two competing world views that share nothing. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they can't both be true, and you have

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<v Speaker 2>a you have a society, and I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>put everything on the systems though it is though it

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<v Speaker 2>is there. You know, the systems are there, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>doing what they do. The principalities are doing what they do,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. But you have entire generations now that view

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<v Speaker 2>the highest good for their life is that momentary happiness,

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<v Speaker 2>Like that's the that's that's the mark by which they

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<v Speaker 2>judge if they've lived a good life is if they

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<v Speaker 2>were happy more times than they weren't. And happiness is fleeting,

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<v Speaker 2>and happiness can be selfish, and it's not bad to

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<v Speaker 2>be happy. But I think, I think if I have

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<v Speaker 2>my choice between happiness and joy, you know, we we

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<v Speaker 2>we would argue the joy. And and I think joy

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<v Speaker 2>is a virtue.

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<v Speaker 3>You have to cultivate.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's a gift from God, and it's also something

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<v Speaker 2>you have to work towards really understanding. And so part

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<v Speaker 2>of it, it's like the arguments don't work for most

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<v Speaker 2>of these people.

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<v Speaker 3>And so.

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<v Speaker 2>What I would say is there's something about story that

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<v Speaker 2>does a better job of presenting that truth than the arguments. Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>let me just give a quick example. So we watched

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<v Speaker 2>our nephews this weekend and I bought them a little

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<v Speaker 2>they're seven, five and two and they do everything together.

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<v Speaker 2>So I can't just like pull out the full Lion,

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<v Speaker 2>the Witch in the Wardrobe and read the two year

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<v Speaker 2>old would be like running through walls, right, But I

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<v Speaker 2>got this really short, illustrated version of The Lion, the

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<v Speaker 2>Witch and the Wardrobe, and I'm reading it to them

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<v Speaker 2>and it gets to the point where as Land's introduced

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<v Speaker 2>and Asher, the five year old says, just like Jesus,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And I'm like, Wow, you don't realize how

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<v Speaker 2>profound that is, because for him, I could have sat

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<v Speaker 2>down and told him the story of Jesus and he's

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<v Speaker 2>heard it. He goes to church and you know, we've

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<v Speaker 2>shared those things with him, but he saw it in

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<v Speaker 2>story and it clicked for him, you know. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think in a lot of ways that I think

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<v Speaker 2>what's so pernicious about this new worldview, this postmodern worldview,

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<v Speaker 2>is it's also taken over Hollywood, it's taken over books,

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<v Speaker 2>it's taken over everything, and so people aren't engaging with

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<v Speaker 2>good stories. I mean, you had something like the Lord

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<v Speaker 2>of the Rings films that came out twenty plus years

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<v Speaker 2>ago that spoke to the entire world.

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<v Speaker 3>Why is that?

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<v Speaker 2>Because it was so and they're not perfect adaptations they

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<v Speaker 2>you know, nothing can be. But I think they were

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<v Speaker 2>good adaptations, and they did a good job of at

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<v Speaker 2>least showing this the virtue, self sacrifice, heroism, all these

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of things that in the modern world we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of scoff that is kind of old fashioned or or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't know, kind of pretention whatever it is, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>just the old guys are talking about heroism, like they

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<v Speaker 2>don't they don't understand what it's like to be you know,

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<v Speaker 2>gen z or millennials, you know. And so I think

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<v Speaker 2>part of what's been so tough and why we've lost

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<v Speaker 2>so many cultural battles is because people aren't engaging with

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<v Speaker 2>good stories. So if I think, if to answer your question,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the arguments are important more so for for me,

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<v Speaker 2>for us, you know, as we are, as we are

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<v Speaker 2>already on the side that's trying to cultivate that virtue

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<v Speaker 2>and those values in us.

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<v Speaker 3>I think for the.

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<v Speaker 2>People that are outside, that are immersed in that postmodern

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<v Speaker 2>worldview where nothing matters, the nihilism that you know, nothing

398
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<v Speaker 2>really matters. You know, people don't matter. We're just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>parasites on the planet where it can't you know, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>they say, I think it's going to be engaging with

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<v Speaker 2>good stories, fictional and nonfictional, like story of heroism, stories

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of you have to breathe in and breathe

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<v Speaker 2>out to get. You know, it's it's not just consumption.

404
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<v Speaker 2>It's not just media to be consumed. It's something to

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<v Speaker 2>live with and let kind of permeate your your your

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<v Speaker 2>your being. The Tolkien's like that, you know, it's like

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's a Christian story. I don't get the

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<v Speaker 2>arguments online that it's you know, it's like obviously a

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<v Speaker 2>pre Christian world, but it's a very Christian story. And

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<v Speaker 2>but someone coming to that for just an adventure story

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<v Speaker 2>might struggle be like, oh, you know, what's what's all

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<v Speaker 2>this he's doing here in these in these books. But

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<v Speaker 2>when you come there and you begin to live with

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<v Speaker 2>it and sit with it, you begin to be changed

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<v Speaker 2>by it. And so I think that's that's going to

416
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:50.440
<v Speaker 2>be the major systemic change that has to happen, is

417
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:55.680
<v Speaker 2>we have to take back story. And yeah, I think

418
00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:58.000
<v Speaker 2>guys like Lewis and Tolkien are a great place to start.

419
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's that's well said. You know, when

420
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.240
<v Speaker 1>I teach my philosophy classes of the State University. I

421
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, we'll do the main I guess maybe not mainstream.

422
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.720
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people aren't even making ston As read

423
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.119
<v Speaker 1>that the classics anymore. But you know, I'll have them

424
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.400
<v Speaker 1>read traditional philosophy text. But I also throw something in there, like,

425
00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, I have them read Beowolf, because you know,

426
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.519
<v Speaker 1>you read Beowulf and nobody there well, very few people,

427
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:28.319
<v Speaker 1>even our post modern culture, are going to look at

428
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.559
<v Speaker 1>Beoolf and Grendel and say that they're on equal moral footing.

429
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.640
<v Speaker 1>That's all subjective. You know, who's who's the hero here?

430
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't. I don't know. So you know, it's like

431
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.839
<v Speaker 1>everyone recognizes the heroism a Beowolf, and he's a hero

432
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.839
<v Speaker 1>precisely because he stands for integrity and honor. He puts

433
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:44.119
<v Speaker 1>the world into order. He holds his own life rather

434
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.279
<v Speaker 1>cheaply in light of a surpassing value that he is

435
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.960
<v Speaker 1>trying to attain. Like he he is a hero in

436
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.720
<v Speaker 1>a sense that anybody, like almost anybody, almost any postmodern

437
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.359
<v Speaker 1>who would elsewhere say all morality and truth is subjective,

438
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:00.279
<v Speaker 1>They're gonna read the story like they know who the

439
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.000
<v Speaker 1>hero is, they know who they ought to admire. And

440
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.119
<v Speaker 1>that's because I mean the reality of virtue. I mean,

441
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you get to the Latin roots, it

442
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.039
<v Speaker 1>basically means like madness, like the way that a person

443
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.640
<v Speaker 1>is supposed to be is tied into our human nature.

444
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.039
<v Speaker 1>And you can only reject that at the level of

445
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.720
<v Speaker 1>the superficial, at the level of the propaganda. But the

446
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 1>reality always reasserts itself, you know, just like I'll ask

447
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.680
<v Speaker 1>my students, you know where at the beginning of the semester.

448
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.640
<v Speaker 1>They'll they'll tell me that everything just made up, everything

449
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.799
<v Speaker 1>is social construct And I'll say, okay, who sees a

450
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.400
<v Speaker 1>moral difference between serving the soup kitchen and committing genocide?

451
00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:40.200
<v Speaker 1>It's like, okay, maybe you have to go to the

452
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.640
<v Speaker 1>extreme examples, right, But if there's any place where people

453
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.440
<v Speaker 1>are willing to say one thing's good and other thing's bad,

454
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.599
<v Speaker 1>the follow up is what makes good things good? That's

455
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:53.960
<v Speaker 1>what Plato asks. That's the youth of dialogue, and that

456
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:56.599
<v Speaker 1>just is such an easy way of helping people to

457
00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.759
<v Speaker 1>recognize they don't really believe the things that they say

458
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:02.319
<v Speaker 1>that they believe. They don't live as if they believe

459
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.319
<v Speaker 1>the things that they say that they believe you know,

460
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:07.559
<v Speaker 1>you can't fight for justice or the quality or you know,

461
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.240
<v Speaker 1>whatever ideal people might put up there unless you believe

462
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.119
<v Speaker 1>in ideals. And so I agree with you. I think

463
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:18.559
<v Speaker 1>that stories have such a important role in just helping

464
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.519
<v Speaker 1>people to see themselves in a way that they're not

465
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:27.440
<v Speaker 1>going to willingly see themselves in their postmodern context. So

466
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:31.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I mean, where do you want to

467
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:31.839
<v Speaker 1>go from here?

468
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, I can add to that.

469
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I think I think you're one hundred percent correct. The

470
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.079
<v Speaker 2>issue that you run into is I think one of

471
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:53.079
<v Speaker 2>the primary, maybe the primary fundamental What's what I'm looking for?

472
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.440
<v Speaker 2>What makes this postmodern thing? It's the stuff that makes

473
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.559
<v Speaker 2>it up right, It's it's it's cognitive dissonance. Is this

474
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.000
<v Speaker 2>just what I'm trying to say? Because you have people,

475
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.279
<v Speaker 2>you can point that out to them, Like I've seen

476
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:12.680
<v Speaker 2>I've seen this argument online many times about someone will

477
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:15.519
<v Speaker 2>come up and start trying to debate somebody who's arguing

478
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:20.279
<v Speaker 2>for objectivity, and they'll say, well, what about slavery, with

479
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:23.799
<v Speaker 2>slavery bad? Well, yeah, of course, And they're like, but

480
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.359
<v Speaker 2>there was a time when the majority of the world,

481
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you ask the majority, they'd say no,

482
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:33.599
<v Speaker 2>slavery's fine, and for some reason, there's they always sidestep this.

483
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 2>People go a long that they'll do a lot to

484
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:43.160
<v Speaker 2>keep their worldview intact, you know, even ignoring things.

485
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.480
<v Speaker 3>That are flat out.

486
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Ridiculous on their face, like what you said. You may

487
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.839
<v Speaker 2>have had a different experience if you're teaching philosophy students,

488
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.799
<v Speaker 2>because they're probably trained in philosophy, you know, and there's

489
00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.480
<v Speaker 2>something there that that if you are if you're doing that,

490
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.640
<v Speaker 2>if you're kind of immersing yourself in that sort of mode,

491
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.039
<v Speaker 2>then you can probably see the logical errors.

492
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:07.039
<v Speaker 3>But there are a lot of people.

493
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:09.640
<v Speaker 2>In the modern world that can be presented with that

494
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>logical error and still just kind of clamp down around

495
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>the lie. And so I don't know, like, I don't

496
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 2>know how you begin to win that groundback as a

497
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.119
<v Speaker 2>culture without doing it person to person, Like we need

498
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.440
<v Speaker 2>more people that are out there like what you're doing.

499
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:31.119
<v Speaker 2>Obviously you have a class, but it's very different than

500
00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.240
<v Speaker 2>just putting out a book that no one no one's

501
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.599
<v Speaker 2>going to read, or or you know, talking into the void.

502
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:37.839
<v Speaker 3>You know.

503
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like there's something that happens when you engage with

504
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.559
<v Speaker 2>someone personally and you kind of getting wrapped up in

505
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:47.480
<v Speaker 2>each other's stories that I think can maybe start to

506
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.799
<v Speaker 2>break down those walls. But it's a very challenging thing

507
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:54.799
<v Speaker 2>when you present that, well, the only I mean, because

508
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the reality is and this is one of those little kitchy,

509
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.759
<v Speaker 2>pithy statements that I heard growing up in the evangelical church.

510
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.079
<v Speaker 2>That is so true, and now it feels like a stereotype,

511
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 2>so people kind of brush it off. If you're saying

512
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>there is no absolute truth, then that is the one

513
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:11.680
<v Speaker 2>absolute truth, right.

514
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:13.000
<v Speaker 3>You always have to.

515
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Make an exception for one, right because if and just

516
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.799
<v Speaker 2>like what you said, if you show one difference between

517
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.440
<v Speaker 2>telling a white lie to your parents and committing genocide,

518
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.720
<v Speaker 2>if there's one differentiator there, then they can be everywhere.

519
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:32.920
<v Speaker 2>And now you have to start making these value claims.

520
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:36.359
<v Speaker 2>And how do you do that in a secular, post

521
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Christian world when people are completely fine with living in

522
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:43.039
<v Speaker 2>that cognitive dissonant space.

523
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:44.319
<v Speaker 3>It's very, very challenging.

524
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and this is when I think that Socrates really

525
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.880
<v Speaker 1>becomes helpful in that, you know, you look at the

526
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:53.440
<v Speaker 1>way that he argues with people. He doesn't only say

527
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.119
<v Speaker 1>a very lot in the Platonic dialogues, he just he

528
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 1>asked clarifying questions. Now, obviously he has points in the

529
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:02.559
<v Speaker 1>way that he's doing that, but what he really does

530
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:05.799
<v Speaker 1>is he at least rhetorically expressed an interest in the

531
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 1>person he's talking to, gets them to just give an

532
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:12.119
<v Speaker 1>account for the things that they believe. And you know, eventually,

533
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.039
<v Speaker 1>if you get down to the roots and you recognize, well,

534
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.640
<v Speaker 1>actually are no roots, that then creates the right kind

535
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.799
<v Speaker 1>of vulnerability to have I think, a more productive conversation.

536
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Not not always, I mean sometimes. I mean even those dialogues,

537
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, a lot of times you get to the

538
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.559
<v Speaker 1>endpoint where the supposed expert recognizes they don't know what

539
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:30.240
<v Speaker 1>they're talking about, and they'll just you know, run away

540
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:35.079
<v Speaker 1>or just ignore the problem. Right. But I do think

541
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:38.359
<v Speaker 1>that that Socratic method is very useful in that you're

542
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.160
<v Speaker 1>not necessarily actively arguing there is objective truth. There might

543
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:46.079
<v Speaker 1>be a place for that, but just in asking questions

544
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:51.359
<v Speaker 1>and helping your conversation partner themselves to better understand their

545
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.200
<v Speaker 1>own position or lack thereof, I think does a good

546
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:57.480
<v Speaker 1>job of helping people get kind of disenchanted with postmodernism.

547
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.119
<v Speaker 1>At least that's been my experience. You know, reconnize that

548
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.359
<v Speaker 1>there's not really anything there and that it doesn't account

549
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.759
<v Speaker 1>for the way that they live in their lives, which

550
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:06.759
<v Speaker 1>then asked the question, well, what could account for the

551
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:11.920
<v Speaker 1>way that I'm living my life? You know, it's kind

552
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 1>of similar to what we've been talking about with morality.

553
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, even like the issue of beauty that you know,

554
00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:20.599
<v Speaker 1>my students will usually tell me that beauty is entirely

555
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.039
<v Speaker 1>a social construct or. It's all subjectives and the beholder,

556
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, something of that nature. But then I'll have

557
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.720
<v Speaker 1>them go to the local art museum and do just

558
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 1>a short little assignment, very easy academically, but you know,

559
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.799
<v Speaker 1>tell me one piece of art that stands out to

560
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:40.160
<v Speaker 1>you as being particularly compelling and tell me why. And

561
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.039
<v Speaker 1>then do the same thing with something that you find

562
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of off putting and tell me why. And the

563
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:47.440
<v Speaker 1>vast majority are going to pick, you know, some kind

564
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.720
<v Speaker 1>of like Renaissance painting or you know, some classical image

565
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.319
<v Speaker 1>from an older time when we're trying to deal with

566
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:57.759
<v Speaker 1>actual reality, and just about all of them discount in

567
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.240
<v Speaker 1>modern art, which is quite nonsense, right, It's it's intentionally

568
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.720
<v Speaker 1>meant to deconstruct our understanding of reality, and so these

569
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>classical images, just seeing out to them because they're beautiful,

570
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:15.880
<v Speaker 1>and we know that, like you have to program yourself

571
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.000
<v Speaker 1>to reject the reality of beauty, just as you have

572
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:20.559
<v Speaker 1>to program yourself to reject the idea of morality. But

573
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:22.359
<v Speaker 1>even that can never go all the way down to

574
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 1>your soul because it brings back to what made Lewis,

575
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.319
<v Speaker 1>so as do like, we have a nature, we have

576
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 1>an essence, we have a purpose, and we know that

577
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.599
<v Speaker 1>if we're honest with ourselves, right.

578
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:34.519
<v Speaker 3>I like what you just said.

579
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:39.759
<v Speaker 2>You know you have to program yourself to to deny

580
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:43.960
<v Speaker 2>these things, to deny these realities, I think. I mean,

581
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.160
<v Speaker 2>you see it in Lewis. I don't know, have you

582
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:47.359
<v Speaker 2>Have you seen this book before?

583
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? See I have not read it. Amazon recommends it

584
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:54.400
<v Speaker 1>to me all the time, but I have not read it.

585
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 3>It's great.

586
00:32:57.200 --> 00:32:59.799
<v Speaker 2>It was only released in twenty twenty two, but it's

587
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:03.680
<v Speaker 2>really really good. You know, like you said, there's you

588
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:06.559
<v Speaker 2>can program yourself and that's that cognitive business maybe I'm

589
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.319
<v Speaker 2>talking about because at the deepest levels, the people that

590
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:12.759
<v Speaker 2>are saying there are no there's no value to truth

591
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:17.400
<v Speaker 2>claims are still making truth claims. They may be disordered,

592
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.200
<v Speaker 2>they may be bent to use, you know, a Ransom

593
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>trilogy term, but they're still like aiming for that in

594
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:30.400
<v Speaker 2>some way. They're still aiming for resonance or harmony. But

595
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.720
<v Speaker 2>they are doing a poor job because once again they've

596
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:39.359
<v Speaker 2>had to take what was natural here and twist it

597
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.160
<v Speaker 2>to fit it in there.

598
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:43.599
<v Speaker 3>I think that that.

599
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Book covers a lot of these things we're talking about.

600
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:51.000
<v Speaker 2>I think you'd really enjoy it. But what I was

601
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say, and I had something I wanted

602
00:33:52.960 --> 00:34:02.279
<v Speaker 2>to pull up. But yeah, so yeah, this was the quote,

603
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:06.240
<v Speaker 2>the exact quote from the book that I think speaks

604
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to this. This, then, is what is at stake when

605
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.360
<v Speaker 2>considering Lewis's admiration for medieval cosmology, because for him, the

606
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.679
<v Speaker 2>medieval universe was not just a system of exploded scientific beliefs,

607
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.079
<v Speaker 2>but the natural icon of transposition, the greatest example of

608
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>the spiritual world expressing itself in the limited vocabulary of

609
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.280
<v Speaker 2>the physical natural world. And one of those ways that

610
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.480
<v Speaker 2>we are transposing those things is through art and through

611
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:33.519
<v Speaker 2>the beauty of art. And so you look at the

612
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>decay like you were talking about the modern art and

613
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:41.239
<v Speaker 2>how it's intentionally meant to subvert our expectations or our

614
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:46.159
<v Speaker 2>desire for beauty and they call it good or there's

615
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:48.440
<v Speaker 2>that hubris involved. You know, this is a good thing.

616
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:50.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, we see that in culture right now. We're

617
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.360
<v Speaker 2>subverting everything you know to be true about about heroism

618
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and that's a good thing. Here's why it gets you

619
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.559
<v Speaker 2>to it's it's the Star Wars model. I still get

620
00:34:58.599 --> 00:34:59.960
<v Speaker 2>mad about that. I mean, we should tal about Star

621
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:04.440
<v Speaker 2>worse for a second, but yeah, I think that you're

622
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:09.320
<v Speaker 2>absolutely right. It's it's the Socratic method getting people to

623
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:12.599
<v Speaker 2>recognize because if you're preaching to them, they might be

624
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:14.920
<v Speaker 2>more closed off. If you get them to reveal it

625
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.559
<v Speaker 2>to themselves, eventually they get down to the bottom and

626
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:21.239
<v Speaker 2>they're like, what what is this? Where did it come from?

627
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:26.519
<v Speaker 2>Jordan Peterson talked about the fact that everyone that calls

628
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:30.360
<v Speaker 2>themselves a nihilists aren't really nihilists, and I think that's

629
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.800
<v Speaker 2>that's true. It's like you may you may say you are,

630
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.880
<v Speaker 2>but the way you live your life, the way you

631
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.599
<v Speaker 2>order your your days, the way you order your relationships,

632
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:44.840
<v Speaker 2>most people aren't nihilists. So there's that disconnect between the

633
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:49.840
<v Speaker 2>brain and the soul in the people that would claim

634
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.000
<v Speaker 2>that because they still, like we said, are making those

635
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.719
<v Speaker 2>truth claims often and over and over and over, when

636
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.079
<v Speaker 2>they decide to brush their teeth rather than not, when

637
00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.480
<v Speaker 2>they decide to you know, call their mother rather than not,

638
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:01.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, things like that.

639
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:07.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and as Plato says, everyone by nature seeks the good.

640
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Now that the problem is that we fall short and

641
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:13.920
<v Speaker 1>we value lesser goods over the ultimate. We don't recognize

642
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the the good that is behind good things. But as

643
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:18.719
<v Speaker 1>you said, anything we do you brush your teeth whatever,

644
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.960
<v Speaker 1>like you know, even if God forbid, you decide to

645
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.800
<v Speaker 1>kill yourself, like you do that in the grossest nehilistic act,

646
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:29.920
<v Speaker 1>because you believe that's better than an alternative right. And

647
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.719
<v Speaker 1>so even if you are moving in a profoundly negative direction,

648
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 1>you still do it because you believe that's better than

649
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.360
<v Speaker 1>a different move. And at that point you're you're still

650
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:43.679
<v Speaker 1>dealing with different pathsive meaning of even fixed meaning, at

651
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:46.000
<v Speaker 1>least from the way that you're looking at it. And

652
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:49.920
<v Speaker 1>so nihlism really is, it's an impossible position to be

653
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 1>in because you're always making choices. Now, you know, you

654
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.400
<v Speaker 1>mentioned Star Wars, We're I know, we're kind of just

655
00:36:58.400 --> 00:36:59.960
<v Speaker 1>meandering all around, and that that's fine. It's all really,

656
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, we are we just started a Star Wars

657
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.519
<v Speaker 1>series over here, and so I mean, I don't know

658
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.360
<v Speaker 1>what announces do you have to bring here now that

659
00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 1>you brought it.

660
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Up, Well, I will say that I'm watching and Or

661
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm actually kind of mad that I like it

662
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.880
<v Speaker 2>because I've been I've been so mad at what most

663
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 2>of Disney has done there. I still have issues, you know,

664
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:27.639
<v Speaker 2>it it does kind of what it did with The

665
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Last Jedi at times where it conflates the the what

666
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 2>you would argue is the good guys and the bad guys,

667
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:38.199
<v Speaker 2>and you see, you know, there's that still going on.

668
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.480
<v Speaker 2>And I you know, I get people want that now,

669
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:43.920
<v Speaker 2>they want nuanced characters, and but I think there's a

670
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.519
<v Speaker 2>way to have nuanced characters without making them morally gray.

671
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.920
<v Speaker 2>It's more challenging, it takes a little bit more intention.

672
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:57.760
<v Speaker 2>But I think of the Last the one that always

673
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.360
<v Speaker 2>comes back to me is the Last Jedi. When you

674
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:08.519
<v Speaker 2>have this, you have this idea, and it really I

675
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't like the movie at all, really from the beginning

676
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.519
<v Speaker 2>when he threw the lightsaber over his shoulder and I

677
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:14.880
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, so this is what it's going to

678
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:18.480
<v Speaker 2>be you know, this is what's happening to my beloved

679
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Star Wars.

680
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:21.519
<v Speaker 3>But really, when you had.

681
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.400
<v Speaker 2>The the I think Canto bite was that the planet

682
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:27.800
<v Speaker 2>that they were on with the it was like the

683
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:31.599
<v Speaker 2>Vegas planet. And then they escape with the Guermo del

684
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Toro character, I think the Urbanicio del Toro is that

685
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 2>his name, and he gives them that long exposition about

686
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:43.599
<v Speaker 2>how the rebellion and the empire are the same, they

687
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.199
<v Speaker 2>buy their weapons from the same people. They It's like, Okay,

688
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.679
<v Speaker 2>I know you're making a claim about the world and

689
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.039
<v Speaker 2>it's probably pretty true. Like at the end of the

690
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:59.639
<v Speaker 2>day human governance and governments are are they lean towards corruption?

691
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:00.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think at the end of the day

692
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 2>we have to take the scripture seriously about principalities and

693
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.559
<v Speaker 2>how it's very very hard, very very hard. That's why

694
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of skeptical of the idea of Christian nationalism.

695
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:12.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, we don't have to get there, but

696
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:15.079
<v Speaker 2>there is something to be said when you were given

697
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:20.119
<v Speaker 2>governmental power that it kind of like the one ring,

698
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:22.639
<v Speaker 2>it'll corrupt you, even if you feel like you are

699
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the one that has the strength to wield it. Properly,

700
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.880
<v Speaker 2>and so I get that they were trying to make

701
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:33.719
<v Speaker 2>it apply to the real world in some way, but

702
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day, it just came across

703
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>as preachy. And we're also not there on Star Wars

704
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to explore, you know.

705
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 3>The real world.

706
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:44.760
<v Speaker 2>We're there to get a story of good and evil

707
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:48.400
<v Speaker 2>and a light overcoming darkness. And and I think it's

708
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:52.800
<v Speaker 2>really interesting. In the old trilogy there was no real

709
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>talk of like the light side of the force. It

710
00:39:56.599 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>was it was the dark side, was the distortion of

711
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.360
<v Speaker 2>way things really were. And so that's kind of tying

712
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:04.000
<v Speaker 2>back into the Lewis thing. Look at what we did.

713
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, It's like, rather than harmonance and resonance with

714
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.000
<v Speaker 2>the way things ought to be or the way things are,

715
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.039
<v Speaker 2>you have a distortion and then you have. Now in

716
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 2>modern Star Wars is very much this kind of this

717
00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:22.719
<v Speaker 2>dichotomy where they're trying to find balance in between. I

718
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:26.440
<v Speaker 2>just think that there's something dangerous about that and also

719
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.239
<v Speaker 2>something less interesting about that than the original trilogy, where

720
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:33.239
<v Speaker 2>you understood there is the force and then there's the distortion.

721
00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:34.559
<v Speaker 2>Does that make sense?

722
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I think what made the original trilogy

723
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:40.880
<v Speaker 1>so great is that is an archetypal fairy tale. And

724
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:45.159
<v Speaker 1>so you know, we are we're dealing with the reality

725
00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:46.679
<v Speaker 1>of good and evil. And as you said that in

726
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.159
<v Speaker 1>the original trilogy, there's not this dichotomy between the light

727
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:52.360
<v Speaker 1>side and the dark side. There's the force in the

728
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.960
<v Speaker 1>dark side that the distortion. I think that starts to

729
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:57.559
<v Speaker 1>get a little bit blurred in the prequels not quite

730
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:02.199
<v Speaker 1>so clear, but there's a pretty clear division between the

731
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 1>good guys and the bad guys. And so you know,

732
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:05.639
<v Speaker 1>I kind of get the prequels to pass. You know,

733
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.159
<v Speaker 1>we're moving away from the original, but I still think

734
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:09.960
<v Speaker 1>there's some value to be had there. But by the

735
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 1>time we get to the sequel trilogy, you know, when

736
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.639
<v Speaker 1>we have you know, ghost Yoda destroying the old Jedi

737
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Temple and Jedi sacred texts, and you know, now we're

738
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 1>just gonna follow whatever intuition entirely that there is this

739
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:26.679
<v Speaker 1>more of a yin and yang understanding of the force.

740
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:29.199
<v Speaker 1>We're we're a lot more manique in here of you know,

741
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:34.320
<v Speaker 1>good and evil and perfect balance. It's just we we

742
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:39.239
<v Speaker 1>lose track of what made Star Wars so great, and

743
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:42.039
<v Speaker 1>that it is this clear line. I mean, you have

744
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:45.280
<v Speaker 1>ambiguity still, I mean, and even Tolkien talks about this

745
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:48.119
<v Speaker 1>that you know, a lot of times he's criticized for

746
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:52.599
<v Speaker 1>being too black and white in his morality, just because

747
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:56.079
<v Speaker 1>he believed morality is black and white. They are separate things,

748
00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.360
<v Speaker 1>you know. In one of his letters, Tolkien says that

749
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, on both sides of the war on World

750
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.599
<v Speaker 1>War One, in particular, on both sides of the war,

751
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000
<v Speaker 1>that you have men, and you have orcs, you have demons,

752
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:13.840
<v Speaker 1>and you have angels. Not to say that there's no

753
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:16.039
<v Speaker 1>difference between the acts and the Allies, but at the

754
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:20.960
<v Speaker 1>same time, like people are people, and you could tell

755
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.800
<v Speaker 1>a story about the corruption of the Allies, but that's

756
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.440
<v Speaker 1>not a fairy story. A fairy story helps us to

757
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:31.760
<v Speaker 1>recognize that, yeah, some people may walk that line between

758
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.719
<v Speaker 1>good and evil, but good and evil themself always have

759
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:40.320
<v Speaker 1>a line. And so you can have an apparently morally

760
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.239
<v Speaker 1>ambiguous character. I mean, and Tolkien has these. You know,

761
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Borimir for example, right, like he he is a hero,

762
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.400
<v Speaker 1>but also he obviously has a villainous tendency to him

763
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:57.039
<v Speaker 1>or even denethor you know that he could there's ways

764
00:42:57.079 --> 00:42:59.159
<v Speaker 1>of looking at him as something of an ambiguous kind.

765
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Of figure. But morality is not ambiguous, right, and I

766
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:06.480
<v Speaker 1>think that's what makes talking so compelling. And even in

767
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.719
<v Speaker 1>the Jackson adaptations, which you know that they change a

768
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.679
<v Speaker 1>good bit, but I think that they maintain that basic

769
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:16.039
<v Speaker 1>reality of the well, the reality of good and evil.

770
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.639
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's one reason why that has spoken

771
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.000
<v Speaker 1>to so many people. Why these movies are still relevant,

772
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:23.440
<v Speaker 1>you know now in twenty twenty five, you know, across

773
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.760
<v Speaker 1>the globe, because they speak to deep human realities that

774
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:32.960
<v Speaker 1>even postmodern people are deeply hungry for, which just makes

775
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:38.159
<v Speaker 1>me wonder, like, aside from an agenda, why why is

776
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Hollywood keep producing these stories that no one's going to

777
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.079
<v Speaker 1>talk about a year from now, five years from now,

778
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:47.880
<v Speaker 1>ten years from now, when obviously it's much more effective,

779
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.119
<v Speaker 1>even just on a marketing angle, to tell good stories

780
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:53.960
<v Speaker 1>about good and evil that people want, people buy, people

781
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.039
<v Speaker 1>talk about for years to come. But they don't do

782
00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:57.880
<v Speaker 1>that because I guess they just don't want to.

783
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:03.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, I think, you know, I have one point.

784
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:06.559
<v Speaker 2>I want to make a boy the prequels, but let

785
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:10.840
<v Speaker 2>me address this first. You know, at some point you

786
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:15.599
<v Speaker 2>start to wonder because they keep losing money on these

787
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:17.800
<v Speaker 2>on these kind of movies. You know, it's like, well

788
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 2>they have a run out of money. Well who knows that.

789
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:22.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's all tax rite offs for them, and

790
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.320
<v Speaker 2>they make one Top Gun Maverick and they cover their

791
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.519
<v Speaker 2>losses for you know, two or three years. You know

792
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:30.320
<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying, it's it's and and Top Gun Maverick

793
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.880
<v Speaker 2>is just an example because it was one bright spot

794
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.559
<v Speaker 2>amongst a year of ridiculous I mean, it was also

795
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:38.800
<v Speaker 2>just a fun caper. But you know what I'm saying,

796
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:40.559
<v Speaker 2>it was very clear, like you had your heroes, you

797
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 2>had your But I think they view themselves as the

798
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.440
<v Speaker 2>people that are saving the world. I think they honestly

799
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:56.519
<v Speaker 2>view themselves as heroes. And they're they're very they're very

800
00:44:56.559 --> 00:45:00.159
<v Speaker 2>cemented in their belief that once again this iron that

801
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.480
<v Speaker 2>idea that they are the virtuous ones and that it's

802
00:45:03.559 --> 00:45:07.199
<v Speaker 2>their job. They recognize the power of storytelling or propaganda.

803
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:11.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna call it propaganda. And so for them, it's like,

804
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't care if this loses money, if this just

805
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:18.760
<v Speaker 2>changes one mind, right, So for them, because good and

806
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.119
<v Speaker 2>evil don't exist in the same way, we'd understand, all

807
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.920
<v Speaker 2>that's left is the narrative. And I don't mean like

808
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:27.679
<v Speaker 2>the narrative story. I mean it is a narrative of

809
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:32.599
<v Speaker 2>a story, but the anti narrative of reality, right which

810
00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 2>is there, which is what they're trying to push. And

811
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:40.159
<v Speaker 2>so I think, honestly, the reason we keep getting it

812
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.079
<v Speaker 2>is because we have activists that have taken these jobs

813
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:48.400
<v Speaker 2>rather than creative people that are in tune with that

814
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:51.280
<v Speaker 2>that resonance, you know, and you get you get those

815
00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:53.440
<v Speaker 2>examples every once in a while we're like, Okay, that

816
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 2>was a really good story. And I also I always

817
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:58.599
<v Speaker 2>want to have a conversation with those people that wrote

818
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:01.199
<v Speaker 2>it to try and figure out what is their worldview?

819
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Are they just are they double agents?

820
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.719
<v Speaker 3>You know? Do they view themselves as kind of moving.

821
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Through the shadows doing work or did they just kind

822
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:12.400
<v Speaker 2>of strike gold once every ten times?

823
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:12.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

824
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:17.559
<v Speaker 2>It's it's complicated. But that comes back to the idea

825
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that we just need to have I think people on

826
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.199
<v Speaker 2>to use the term our side, the people that are

827
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:26.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of engaging with these things as they are.

828
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:28.679
<v Speaker 3>We need to do a better job of.

829
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Creating culture, of creating art, of creating books and movies

830
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:41.440
<v Speaker 2>and things that speak to the truth of the world,

831
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.599
<v Speaker 2>rather than walks the fine line and tries to be subversive,

832
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:49.679
<v Speaker 2>and you know, just for the sake of being subversive

833
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.920
<v Speaker 2>and deconstructing what I wanted to say about the prequels

834
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:56.400
<v Speaker 2>and just really diving back in real quick, even in

835
00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the prequels, and I give them a pass too. I

836
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.239
<v Speaker 2>went and saw The Revenge of the Sith in the

837
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.079
<v Speaker 2>theaters for the twentieth anniversary, and in a lot.

838
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Of ways, it's it's it's not a good movie.

839
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:09.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I love it. I love it, and that's

840
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:11.760
<v Speaker 2>what's so funny. I love it, and I'm also like,

841
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:13.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, some of this is kind of.

842
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Or you know it. The setting was.

843
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:22.119
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, the execution wasn't always interesting, I guess is probably

844
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:24.679
<v Speaker 2>what I want to say, But I have a nostalgic.

845
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Flare for it.

846
00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But you see, even in the prequels, what it meant

847
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.920
<v Speaker 2>to bring balance to the force, even obi Wan says

848
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:35.519
<v Speaker 2>this to Anakin was to destroy the Sith, not join them.

849
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:39.320
<v Speaker 2>So there's this idea that the dark side, and this

850
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.559
<v Speaker 2>is kind of this ties back into Tolkien and CS Lewis.

851
00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:44.840
<v Speaker 3>It's not balance and.

852
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:46.760
<v Speaker 2>That oh we have to balance the good and evil.

853
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 2>It's that, oh, the evil has gotten out of balance.

854
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Evil has become too powerful. The way you bring balance

855
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:58.440
<v Speaker 2>is not by holding both and becoming gray. It's by

856
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.920
<v Speaker 2>diminishing the power of the evil and elevating the power

857
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.119
<v Speaker 2>of the resonance the force. And you, I think it's

858
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:10.519
<v Speaker 2>so funny that they took the idea that Palpatine presented

859
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.360
<v Speaker 2>and have made that the basis on which they've made

860
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.679
<v Speaker 2>New Star Wars, because it was the one that was

861
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.400
<v Speaker 2>living in the distortion that really brought about that sort

862
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.280
<v Speaker 2>of dichotomy. Oh, you have the light side and the

863
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.000
<v Speaker 2>dark side. It was a deception rather than pointing to

864
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:28.239
<v Speaker 2>the reality. And so but they took that speech from

865
00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Palpatine about Darth plagis right, and now that became the

866
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.199
<v Speaker 2>balance was no longer a destruction of the dark and

867
00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:43.360
<v Speaker 2>an elevation of the harmonious. I guess it actually became

868
00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:46.280
<v Speaker 2>a dichotomy, right, And I think it's really interesting that

869
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.559
<v Speaker 2>they took that from the deceptive one in the story

870
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:52.519
<v Speaker 2>and made that the basis of the story moving forward,

871
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.119
<v Speaker 2>That balance is actually becoming a gray Jedi.

872
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:02.400
<v Speaker 1>So Disney's his real padawan, Yeah.

873
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.679
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, dude, Yes, Disney was Palpatine's padwan.

874
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:06.719
<v Speaker 3>All along. I love that.

875
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do think it's a good point, and that

876
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:13.599
<v Speaker 1>is one reason why I you know, when I first

877
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:16.679
<v Speaker 1>saw the prequels, you know, everyone hated on them for

878
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:19.840
<v Speaker 1>a good while until the nostalgias started to redeem them

879
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:24.199
<v Speaker 1>a little bit. But in my recent rewatch, I enjoyed them. Like,

880
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:26.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, we can see that the the problems there,

881
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:30.960
<v Speaker 1>but they do maintain a certain continuity, even if it's

882
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:33.559
<v Speaker 1>in degraded form, a certain continuity with what made the

883
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 1>original trilogy so great. But yeah, I mean, moving on,

884
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:43.039
<v Speaker 1>we just I don't even know really what Star Wars

885
00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:44.559
<v Speaker 1>is anymore. The problem is Star Wars doesn't know what

886
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:47.159
<v Speaker 1>Star Wars is. I mean you look at the the

887
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:50.000
<v Speaker 1>sequel trilogy and you know, I mean you got changing

888
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:53.159
<v Speaker 1>directors with different visions, and you know, there's just there's

889
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:56.079
<v Speaker 1>no continuity anymore. And you know, I feel like, in

890
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.920
<v Speaker 1>the original trilogy, we're telling this archetypal, really existential personal tale,

891
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.880
<v Speaker 1>you know. The the prequels take that and kind of adapt

892
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:05.840
<v Speaker 1>it to more of a political kind of scale. But

893
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:08.840
<v Speaker 1>then once we get to the Disney era, it's like

894
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:12.360
<v Speaker 1>they're just doing stuff. And I guess that that goes

895
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:16.159
<v Speaker 1>along with the fragmented postmodern worldview of there's no united

896
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:22.079
<v Speaker 1>idea behind anything, so we're just doing stuff. And I'm

897
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.000
<v Speaker 1>star Wars is always going to have its fan based

898
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.239
<v Speaker 1>no matter where they go. It's just it's established that

899
00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:29.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of credentials. But at the same time, like, I'm

900
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:32.159
<v Speaker 1>not convinced that this is what people.

901
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:34.679
<v Speaker 3>Want, right, And I think you're right.

902
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the viewership will prove that, you know, you

903
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.840
<v Speaker 2>have a pretty good show at and Or. That was

904
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.239
<v Speaker 2>the least popular release that Disney did at the time.

905
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's getting it's kind of renewed now, like

906
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.360
<v Speaker 2>a renew interest for season two because it's actually really

907
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:56.039
<v Speaker 2>really interesting TV. But yeah, I mean, even going back

908
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.400
<v Speaker 2>to the sequel trilogy, Force Awakens, I was okay with.

909
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:01.440
<v Speaker 3>I was like, Okay, there's a couple.

910
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.199
<v Speaker 2>Of things here that I'm like, eh, you know, it

911
00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:06.159
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make it didn't feel earned, it didn't feel these

912
00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:06.760
<v Speaker 2>sort of things.

913
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.199
<v Speaker 3>I didn't like what they did to Han Solo though.

914
00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:11.679
<v Speaker 3>I feel as if.

915
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.920
<v Speaker 2>They had landed Kylo Wrinn's story it you maybe could

916
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.599
<v Speaker 2>have made it make sense. But it's in the light

917
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.159
<v Speaker 2>of the next two movies that I got more angry

918
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.119
<v Speaker 2>about the death of Han Solo, you know, and I

919
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.599
<v Speaker 2>saw what they were doing. It wasn't and it wasn't

920
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a tool for the story. It was a way to

921
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:35.039
<v Speaker 2>push their idea that we should kill the past, right,

922
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.079
<v Speaker 2>which is I mean, I think even Kylo Wrinn says

923
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:39.679
<v Speaker 2>that a couple of times, like or someone says that,

924
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and Yoda says that good grief when he's burning the

925
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Jedi Temple is and he doesn't say that exact thing,

926
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:46.880
<v Speaker 2>but that's that's what they're saying. That's what they're that's

927
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.599
<v Speaker 2>the value they're proposing, is that all that old stuff

928
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:53.400
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter. What the truth is really in here, right,

929
00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:56.519
<v Speaker 2>You can find it if you look deep in here, right,

930
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and so and even down to Rise of Skywalker. Somehow

931
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Palpatine returned, you know, in the Banded Universe, in the

932
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Dark Empire comic books, I mean, somehow Palpatine returned. But

933
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.400
<v Speaker 2>it felt earned in those, even though they're not great comics,

934
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:13.800
<v Speaker 2>but they still tried.

935
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:14.519
<v Speaker 3>You know.

936
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:19.679
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just salvaging a trilogy where no one knew

937
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:21.599
<v Speaker 2>what was happening, you know, and no one knew was

938
00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:24.440
<v Speaker 2>going on. It was part of the story and it

939
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:27.920
<v Speaker 2>was part of Luke's journey in the expanded Universe. He

940
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.639
<v Speaker 2>actually goes and turns to the dark side for a

941
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:32.840
<v Speaker 2>little while he's playing a double agent. He's trying to

942
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:36.159
<v Speaker 2>learn from Palpatine to see what made him so powerful,

943
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:38.639
<v Speaker 2>and then he takes that back to his new students

944
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:41.760
<v Speaker 2>and says, we're not going to do this. This is

945
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:44.920
<v Speaker 2>how you avoid this trap, right. It was actually education.

946
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.000
<v Speaker 2>It was a cultivation of some sort of virtue, a

947
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:50.440
<v Speaker 2>way to sidestep the trappings that so many had fallen

948
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.400
<v Speaker 2>into before. And so I think that you just have

949
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.480
<v Speaker 2>in Disney the Padawana Palpatine.

950
00:52:57.519 --> 00:52:59.159
<v Speaker 3>I love that. I'm going to start using that.

951
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:04.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean going to the Force awakens one of

952
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:06.639
<v Speaker 1>the things that first really upset me, especially in my

953
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 1>recent rewatch. This is my first time watching it since

954
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the theaters. I just have not been inclined to return

955
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:16.800
<v Speaker 1>to this era. That when I kind of like the

956
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:19.800
<v Speaker 1>character of Finn, or at least the potential that he had,

957
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:21.719
<v Speaker 1>I think he could have been an interesting character if

958
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 1>they did better with him. But when he first really

959
00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:26.559
<v Speaker 1>comes on to the stage and starts interacting with Ray,

960
00:53:26.599 --> 00:53:30.039
<v Speaker 1>he's a very kind of chivalric kind of attitude. Right,

961
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:32.559
<v Speaker 1>He's always he's trying to serve her, trying to protect her,

962
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:35.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, trying to play that kind of nightly sort

963
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:40.280
<v Speaker 1>of role toward her. And then she doesn't really resist

964
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:43.519
<v Speaker 1>that directly. The problem is she scoffs at him trying

965
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:46.639
<v Speaker 1>to protect her. She's trying to serve her, trying to

966
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:48.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, play that sort of role. And that was

967
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.280
<v Speaker 1>one of the early signs to me of what Disney

968
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.519
<v Speaker 1>was doing here that we're not even outright rejecting, we're

969
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:59.639
<v Speaker 1>dismissing as absurd or juvenile traditional values, even like the

970
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:03.840
<v Speaker 1>relationships between the male hero and the you know, the

971
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:08.159
<v Speaker 1>the his feminine counterpart, right, and that right there just

972
00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:10.760
<v Speaker 1>alerts us to the fact that we're engaging in deconstruction here,

973
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:12.840
<v Speaker 1>like that that's what this is all about. And then

974
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:16.239
<v Speaker 1>Last Jedi just takes that to the most clear level

975
00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:18.760
<v Speaker 1>when we get the you know, ghost Yoda of all people,

976
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:25.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, destroying the Jedi traditions, and you know, all

977
00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:27.239
<v Speaker 1>of the character arcs that we get in the original

978
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:31.360
<v Speaker 1>trilogy are just massacred. I mean, with Han Solo being

979
00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:36.480
<v Speaker 1>just this deadbeat divorce he dad who has no relationship

980
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:40.480
<v Speaker 1>with his family to loose Skywalker, drinking milk from a

981
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:46.960
<v Speaker 1>space cow in isolation. Everything just so degraded that they

982
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 1>they essentially did what Kyla Ren did, right, they killed

983
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:55.400
<v Speaker 1>their father. And that's exactly what the series is. That

984
00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:59.920
<v Speaker 1>being said, no, actually I have not read any of

985
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:00.800
<v Speaker 1>it yet.

986
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's it's interesting you bring up Han Solo because

987
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Han Solo becomes so heroic. You know, him and Lea

988
00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.320
<v Speaker 2>get married, they have twins, Jason and Jaina. They have

989
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:20.719
<v Speaker 2>and they have Anakin. Anakin was no, yeah, it was

990
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:28.079
<v Speaker 2>Anakin Anakin Solo and you have this continuing story of

991
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.119
<v Speaker 2>that saga. And he's a great father and he's also

992
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:34.360
<v Speaker 2>a war hero and he's it's it's it's such a

993
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.039
<v Speaker 2>dichotomy for someone who grew up reading the EU to

994
00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:41.280
<v Speaker 2>see what happened to him, and and it made very much.

995
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:45.199
<v Speaker 2>It made a ton of sense when you start bringing

996
00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:48.199
<v Speaker 2>in the sort of subversive deconstruction sort of things. Why

997
00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:51.719
<v Speaker 2>they had to make him that way because every person

998
00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:55.760
<v Speaker 2>in these every male I'm just gonna say, every male

999
00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:59.920
<v Speaker 2>hero in these stories, they had to make look pathetic

1000
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:05.239
<v Speaker 2>and they had to be saved or redeemed by by

1001
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:08.639
<v Speaker 2>the Ray character or even in the Obi Wan series.

1002
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:12.440
<v Speaker 2>They made Obi Wan a bumbling idiot, and he's he's

1003
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:16.320
<v Speaker 2>he's redeemed in that sense and saved over and over

1004
00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:19.119
<v Speaker 2>again by an eight year old Leah, you know, and

1005
00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:22.280
<v Speaker 2>just watching he's like. One of the most ridiculous moments

1006
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:23.679
<v Speaker 2>was they're at this like gate.

1007
00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Did you watch the show?

1008
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when it came out, but I don't remember it

1009
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:28.320
<v Speaker 1>very clearly.

1010
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:31.000
<v Speaker 2>So so, so they're in They're on a desert planet

1011
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:34.559
<v Speaker 2>and there's this laser gate, right, and and they could

1012
00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:37.639
<v Speaker 2>literally walk around it to keep going because they were

1013
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:39.360
<v Speaker 2>on foot, they could really walk around it.

1014
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:41.039
<v Speaker 3>He's like, what do we do? Huh?

1015
00:56:41.079 --> 00:56:43.519
<v Speaker 2>And she takes a blaster and like shoots it and

1016
00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:47.480
<v Speaker 2>it shuts off. I'm like, what The only point of

1017
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:52.880
<v Speaker 2>that was to make him look stupid? And it was

1018
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:56.400
<v Speaker 2>just deeply offensive and and and we have to ask ourselves.

1019
00:56:56.440 --> 00:56:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I find myself wondering, why do I care so much

1020
00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:02.679
<v Speaker 2>about these characters that I get so angry when they

1021
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:05.199
<v Speaker 2>take a dump all over them? You know, Like, why

1022
00:57:05.239 --> 00:57:07.679
<v Speaker 2>does it bother me so much? They're just made up characters?

1023
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:11.159
<v Speaker 2>But kind of going back into our original conversation, they're

1024
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:16.800
<v Speaker 2>actually they're actually not like that they're fictional, but they

1025
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:20.800
<v Speaker 2>also speak to something that we want to be, that

1026
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:25.480
<v Speaker 2>that we can aspire to or try to emulate. They

1027
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:30.039
<v Speaker 2>they it a good heroic story, resonates with what we

1028
00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:33.440
<v Speaker 2>know to be true about the universe, with what we

1029
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>want to be true about ourselves, the way we ought

1030
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:36.440
<v Speaker 2>to be Scius.

1031
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:38.280
<v Speaker 3>It was always talked about the ought tos.

1032
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, And when you see that happen, it's like it's

1033
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:46.400
<v Speaker 2>like watching a friend get betrayed, you know. And so

1034
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that's why when peop are like, why do

1035
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:51.320
<v Speaker 2>you care so much? Just don't watch it, It's like, no, no,

1036
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:54.079
<v Speaker 2>the these are these are my friends. These these are

1037
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 2>people that matter to me even though they're fictional, because

1038
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.119
<v Speaker 2>I see in them what I hope to become, what

1039
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:04.639
<v Speaker 2>I hope to be in my own life. So yeah,

1040
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:06.639
<v Speaker 2>it's a very weird thing. They did the same thing

1041
00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:09.840
<v Speaker 2>with one of my other favorite fantasy series called The Wheel.

1042
00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Of Time.

1043
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:14.519
<v Speaker 2>On Amazon Prime. There's a moment at the end of

1044
00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the first book that Cement's a main character's role, and

1045
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:21.639
<v Speaker 2>they took it away from him in the series and

1046
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:26.360
<v Speaker 2>gave it to let's just say, more marginalized communities, you know,

1047
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:31.599
<v Speaker 2>and It's like I'm watching this and I'm just I

1048
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:35.079
<v Speaker 2>don't understand. You have a built in fan base of

1049
00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:36.840
<v Speaker 2>millions of people. These are some of the best selling

1050
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:40.079
<v Speaker 2>books of all time, and they're best selling because people

1051
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:43.079
<v Speaker 2>love the characters. And then you come in and you

1052
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:48.199
<v Speaker 2>do something upside down and it will push away these people.

1053
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:51.159
<v Speaker 2>And then now you no longer have that millions of

1054
00:58:51.159 --> 00:58:54.639
<v Speaker 2>person fan base built in anymore. You're now having to scramble,

1055
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and they just keep doing it over and over, and

1056
00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.360
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just a sign of that brokenness that

1057
00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:02.679
<v Speaker 2>we're talking and this sort of idea that they're trying

1058
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to use power, institutional power, to warp the natural inclinations

1059
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:14.559
<v Speaker 2>of people to aim for that good. They're hoping that

1060
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 2>if they bang it down your throat enough, if they

1061
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:18.679
<v Speaker 2>just hit you in the head over and over enough,

1062
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:22.559
<v Speaker 2>that eventually just be like, okay, whatever, Yes, heroes don't exist,

1063
00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:25.159
<v Speaker 2>there's no such thing as good and evil. But what

1064
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:29.039
<v Speaker 2>they're actually doing, I think is they're creating radicalized traditionalists.

1065
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:31.599
<v Speaker 2>And I think we're kind of starting to see that.

1066
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:36.519
<v Speaker 2>You're seeing a huge reaction and it's getting more and

1067
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:40.559
<v Speaker 2>more violence not the right word, because no one's killing

1068
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:44.000
<v Speaker 2>each other over it, but more and more passionate. With

1069
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:46.880
<v Speaker 2>every time they destroy a story, you're getting more and

1070
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:49.400
<v Speaker 2>more people that are saying, like, this is ridiculous, I

1071
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.079
<v Speaker 2>want my heroes back, and so to go back to

1072
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.519
<v Speaker 2>that original thing we were talking about, how do we

1073
00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:57.280
<v Speaker 2>change this. Well, part of it is they're going to

1074
00:59:57.400 --> 01:00:00.400
<v Speaker 2>keep doing this because that's what they want what to do.

1075
01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:04.159
<v Speaker 2>They're nice, you know, they're in ice. They are trying

1076
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.719
<v Speaker 2>to anti humanize everything, and you're going to have a

1077
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:12.320
<v Speaker 2>building resistance that's going to come back and say no,

1078
01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:14.039
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to do that to our stories. And

1079
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:16.119
<v Speaker 2>I think eventually people will get angry enough that will

1080
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:20.400
<v Speaker 2>have sort of a parallel artistic economy where you have

1081
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood and then you have something else that is you're

1082
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:25.679
<v Speaker 2>starting to see that with I think things like the

1083
01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Rabbit Room and there there are these there are these

1084
01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:31.280
<v Speaker 2>people that are starting to push back and create good

1085
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:33.719
<v Speaker 2>art again. But it's going to be a matter of

1086
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a slow, slow process because the institutional powers on

1087
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the side of Hollywood and now we have to kind

1088
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:41.599
<v Speaker 2>of build something on the other side and hopefully eventually

1089
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:45.000
<v Speaker 2>those converge again into good storytelling.

1090
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and of course, the danger here is that the

1091
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.840
<v Speaker 1>reaction can become well reactionary, you know, it can become

1092
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:57.840
<v Speaker 1>political where you know, yeah, we don't like this, you know,

1093
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:01.519
<v Speaker 1>so called progressivism, that the secular movement into nothingness, and

1094
01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:04.119
<v Speaker 1>so we're just gonna, you know, reassert ourselves. You know,

1095
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:06.599
<v Speaker 1>this is where you get the militant right, which I

1096
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:08.880
<v Speaker 1>think can be a dangerous move you know, that's in

1097
01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:12.000
<v Speaker 1>the direction of our side, but sort of missing what

1098
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:15.360
<v Speaker 1>made the good things of tradition good, right, and so

1099
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:19.679
<v Speaker 1>it's important that we maintain, you know, the virtue of

1100
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:22.840
<v Speaker 1>the pre modern era that Lewis appreciated so much, that

1101
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:25.760
<v Speaker 1>we've maintained this assertion of reality and not just the

1102
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:27.119
<v Speaker 1>assertion of our side.

1103
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:28.639
<v Speaker 3>You know.

1104
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:32.360
<v Speaker 1>It's it's like when, you know, when when Joshua's preparing

1105
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:34.679
<v Speaker 1>for the Battle of Jericho or the Angel Lord shows up,

1106
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:36.920
<v Speaker 1>and you know, he says, are you on our side

1107
01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:41.920
<v Speaker 1>of their side? The response he get says, no, that's

1108
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:44.000
<v Speaker 1>that's not the right question. The question is what side

1109
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:44.960
<v Speaker 1>are you on? Right?

1110
01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Not you know, you had you you risk with that reaction. Obviously,

1111
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the militant right sort of idea. I me and my

1112
01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:56.280
<v Speaker 2>wife were talking about that recently, like you're radicalizing a

1113
01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:59.199
<v Speaker 2>lot of young people and you don't realize it, and

1114
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:02.639
<v Speaker 2>there are people that feel hopeless and despair and those

1115
01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:06.119
<v Speaker 2>can become dangerous people. But also on the artistic side,

1116
01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:09.760
<v Speaker 2>you risk just making propaganda of your own. And I

1117
01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:15.320
<v Speaker 2>think that's where the storytelling tied in with virtue, with

1118
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:20.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to access this medieval understanding. The more and more

1119
01:02:20.039 --> 01:02:22.320
<v Speaker 2>people are trying to do that through people like Tolkien

1120
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:24.599
<v Speaker 2>and C. S. Lewis, and the more and more people

1121
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:29.199
<v Speaker 2>use that to inspire their stories, you're getting stories, You're

1122
01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:33.920
<v Speaker 2>not getting propaganda. And that's the challenge is fighting fire

1123
01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:36.440
<v Speaker 2>with fire, And I think if we have anything to

1124
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:41.079
<v Speaker 2>learn from good grief, any of our greatest stories, you know,

1125
01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:45.920
<v Speaker 2>fighting fire with fire, barmere with how we can use

1126
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:48.000
<v Speaker 2>this one ring to fight the evil one? You know,

1127
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.239
<v Speaker 2>why we have this powerful weapon, why don't we use it?

1128
01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:50.559
<v Speaker 3>You know.

1129
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:54.800
<v Speaker 2>That's always going to corrupt you at the end of

1130
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:57.719
<v Speaker 2>the day. And so I think that getting away from

1131
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:00.320
<v Speaker 2>the idea that we have to respond with our own violence,

1132
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:04.559
<v Speaker 2>our own propaganda, we have to stay true to that

1133
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:10.599
<v Speaker 2>harmonic resonance with with the narratives and the storytelling that

1134
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:15.800
<v Speaker 2>we know have built the scaffolding of minds like C. S.

1135
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Lewis and Tolkien and and really try to access those.

1136
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:22.079
<v Speaker 2>I think that's where the power of storytelling comes into play.

1137
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:26.519
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Campbell talks about it, you know, Youwing talks about it,

1138
01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:31.480
<v Speaker 2>and I think that we have to make sure that

1139
01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:34.360
<v Speaker 2>that becomes the core of our of our or that's

1140
01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:36.559
<v Speaker 2>the heart of what we're doing, and not revenge, if

1141
01:03:36.559 --> 01:03:37.239
<v Speaker 2>that makes any.

1142
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:42.679
<v Speaker 1>Sense, right' it's you know, we don't follow Vaders because

1143
01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:45.039
<v Speaker 1>he's our father. It's about redeeming our father, right, It

1144
01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:48.320
<v Speaker 1>is that we want to recover what is good within

1145
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:51.639
<v Speaker 1>our fathers, within tradition, and that's what we want to recover,

1146
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:55.360
<v Speaker 1>which I mean, you know Star Wars pinging back there.

1147
01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, it's it's the idea of redeeming

1148
01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:01.119
<v Speaker 1>our father versus simply killing our right. That's the difference

1149
01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:03.920
<v Speaker 1>between the different trilogies. That's the difference between utimate What

1150
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:06.199
<v Speaker 1>is that we're talking about here? We want to recover

1151
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:11.920
<v Speaker 1>what is good, not merely follow authority whatever that means. Right,

1152
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:14.960
<v Speaker 1>We're good. Well, we hit on a lot of I

1153
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:16.880
<v Speaker 1>think really important topics here. I mean, is there anything

1154
01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:18.760
<v Speaker 1>else that you wanted to mention in this conversation.

1155
01:04:19.599 --> 01:04:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Man, I mean, I feel like we we got off Lewis.

1156
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.280
<v Speaker 2>But that's okay. It was it was all tied into

1157
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the same sort of things. I'd love to come back

1158
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:30.119
<v Speaker 2>and at the time and talk more specifically till we

1159
01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:33.719
<v Speaker 2>have faces or that hideous strength. But yeah, today, man,

1160
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:35.559
<v Speaker 2>I feel good. I feel good about that conversation.

1161
01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Good. Yeah, yeah, I feel like Lewis. Maybe that's maybe

1162
01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:39.920
<v Speaker 1>that's too broad. It's easy to go into everything adjacent

1163
01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:41.880
<v Speaker 1>to Lewis, and I think everything we talked about is

1164
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:44.400
<v Speaker 1>adjacent to what Lewis was doing. Yes, so maybe next

1165
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:46.960
<v Speaker 1>time we'll pick one particular book and go from there.

1166
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:49.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm down with that, all right.

1167
01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:51.079
<v Speaker 1>Spencer, Well, thank you for joining us, and we will

1168
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:52.159
<v Speaker 1>definitely do it again sometime.

1169
01:04:52.440 --> 01:04:54.280
<v Speaker 3>Thanks, Andrew, appreciate it, man, Thank.

1170
01:04:54.079 --> 01:05:00.159
<v Speaker 1>You all right. Well, I hope that you enjoyed that conversation.

1171
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I certainly did. I look forward to having Spencer on

1172
01:05:03.079 --> 01:05:05.159
<v Speaker 1>again at some point in the future. In fact, I

1173
01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:07.519
<v Speaker 1>think he's going to join us for the next Star

1174
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Wars chat coming up soon. But I do want to

1175
01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:14.199
<v Speaker 1>quickly remind you that we do have a couple of

1176
01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Mythic Mind courses underway. We've got Hannah's Latin course just started,

1177
01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Josh's Paradise Loss course just started, and my course on

1178
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.400
<v Speaker 1>a Brief History of Ideas begins the week of the eighteenth,

1179
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:30.119
<v Speaker 1>and that's coming up. It's not too late to enroll.

1180
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:32.760
<v Speaker 1>You can either enroll in just that course, or if

1181
01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:35.920
<v Speaker 1>you become an annual Tier three patron of Mythic Mind,

1182
01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:38.239
<v Speaker 1>then you get access to all courses that begin in

1183
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:41.239
<v Speaker 1>this term. And that's currently a Brief History of Ideas,

1184
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:45.320
<v Speaker 1>plato Stoicism, until we have Aces the Elder Scrolls in Philosophying,

1185
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:47.719
<v Speaker 1>and at the beginning of twenty twenty six we have

1186
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:51.159
<v Speaker 1>the Silmarillion, and so go ahead and enroll over on

1187
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 1>Patreon today. And before we go, I want to thank

1188
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:56.280
<v Speaker 1>all current patrons, and by name, I want to thank

1189
01:05:56.320 --> 01:05:59.480
<v Speaker 1>all Tier three patrons and higher. So that's my commanded

1190
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:04.599
<v Speaker 1>chase as Clinton, David, Aaron, Evy, Jamie, Justin, Justin, Kyle, Paul,

1191
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Roger Tyler, and William. You all, as well as man

1192
01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Tier one and Tier two patrons helped me to keep

1193
01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:12.199
<v Speaker 1>going further up and further in. And so if you

1194
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:15.280
<v Speaker 1>enjoy the show, whether you want to kind of take

1195
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:17.800
<v Speaker 1>the plunge and become a Tier three annual patron to

1196
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.559
<v Speaker 1>continue with this community through all these different studies, or

1197
01:06:20.719 --> 01:06:22.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, you just want to throw five dollars my

1198
01:06:22.519 --> 01:06:26.760
<v Speaker 1>way every month. Any bit of support helps me to

1199
01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:29.760
<v Speaker 1>continue doing things like this, and it's all appreciated, and

1200
01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:31.519
<v Speaker 1>I would love to see you on the inside of

1201
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:35.440
<v Speaker 1>this incredible community. But that's it for now until next time.

1202
01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:57.320
<v Speaker 1>God Speak. When you go to the roots of the

1203
01:06:57.320 --> 01:07:01.320
<v Speaker 1>word philosophy, you find the love of wisdom, which unfortunately

1204
01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:03.559
<v Speaker 1>is not what you find at the roots of all

1205
01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:07.199
<v Speaker 1>who call themselves philosophers. Now, how do we get here?

1206
01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:10.159
<v Speaker 1>What are the ideas that shape our world? And what

1207
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:12.440
<v Speaker 1>can the old world tell us in response to the

1208
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:15.320
<v Speaker 1>perennial questions of what it means to be human, what

1209
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:18.960
<v Speaker 1>is our purpose? And what, if anything, ought we aspire to?

1210
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:22.519
<v Speaker 1>In a brief history of ideas, we will navigate major

1211
01:07:22.519 --> 01:07:25.199
<v Speaker 1>epics of thought and survey some of the most important

1212
01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:32.400
<v Speaker 1>figures in the Western canon, including Plato, Aristotle, Boethius, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Descartes, Nietzsche,

1213
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:35.559
<v Speaker 1>Sart and carec. Guard and of course we will consider

1214
01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:38.119
<v Speaker 1>even more names. But These are the thinkers that will

1215
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:42.159
<v Speaker 1>supply our primary readings. Each week will include primary sources

1216
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:44.960
<v Speaker 1>that will be provided as PDFs. Although these are all

1217
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:47.920
<v Speaker 1>texts that do belong in your personal library. You will

1218
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:50.760
<v Speaker 1>be recommended some secondary texts. You will be provided with

1219
01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:53.199
<v Speaker 1>some recorded presentations for you to watch at your leisure,

1220
01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:57.280
<v Speaker 1>ongoing discord chats, and weekly life meetings to discuss their readings.

1221
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:00.360
<v Speaker 1>I've been teaching philosophy for many years, and I can

1222
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 1>say with confidence that you will leave this six week

1223
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:06.000
<v Speaker 1>course with a better understanding of the foundation to Western

1224
01:08:06.039 --> 01:08:10.000
<v Speaker 1>thought than most contemporary philosophy majors enrolled today by going

1225
01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:12.800
<v Speaker 1>to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind and checking out

1226
01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.360
<v Speaker 1>the shop, or you can gain access to all courses

1227
01:08:15.719 --> 01:08:19.039
<v Speaker 1>that begin during the term of your subscription by purchasing

1228
01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:22.680
<v Speaker 1>a Tier three annual subscription. So again, purchase a Tier

1229
01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:25.239
<v Speaker 1>three annual subscription, and I will give you a special

1230
01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:27.720
<v Speaker 1>code that gives you access to all courses that start

1231
01:08:27.880 --> 01:08:31.119
<v Speaker 1>in this term, and I sincerely hope to see you there.