WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:05.799 Okay, we are a live Hi. This is William Ramsey. 2 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:09.320 Welcome to William Ramsey Investigates On today's show. I have 3 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.599 a new guest and a returning guest. If you listen 4 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.759 to my show, we'll know the name Adam go rightly. 5 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:17.039 I've had him on. It was amazing. It's four years 6 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:20.120 ago for an excellent book that I read four years 7 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:24.199 ago over COVID and that book that we discussed with Saucers, 8 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:28.280 Spooks and Kook's UFO Disinformation in the Age of Aquarius. 9 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:32.119 Excellent book has great reviews. But it came to my 10 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:35.679 attention that they also did a documentary. I wasn't aware 11 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:38.920 of it. I'm busy with other stuff things, but a documentary. 12 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.280 You'll see the cover poster. If you're watching this on 13 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:46.640 one of my three YouTube channels, x or Rumble or Rockfan, 14 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:49.240 you'll see the kind of poster for it. I think 15 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.079 it has a lot of interesting characters in here. See 16 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:55.280 the poster for the Saucers, Spooks and Cooks documentary which 17 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:59.039 was released January twenty second. So I will put a 18 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:02.520 link to the documentary. It is only at one specific site, 19 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:05.920 which is the full name of the documentary dot VHX 20 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:09.560 dot TV. So go check it out there and support 21 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:16.079 your independent filmmakers and creative people like that. Well, Adam 22 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.760 has a long history. He was on with Visigothia sadly 23 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:23.959 passed away last year in January, and published a couple 24 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:26.959 of the old interviews he did with visigoth I think 25 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:30.319 on the Grassy Novel or Beyond the Grassy Nool. So 26 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.640 he's written many, many books in addition to Saucers Books 27 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.079 and kooks. One that I have an actual manual copy 28 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:41.040 which I read which was great too, is The Shadow 29 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:44.439 Over Santa Susannah, Black Magic, Mind Control and the Manson 30 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.239 Family Family Mythos, So check that out. I also, I 31 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.560 think the one that I posted, the interview that's on 32 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:55.680 William Ramby Investigates, is about I think Carrie Thornley, or no, 33 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:57.920 it is King Kill thirty three, I think. But this 34 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.040 book is caught in the crossfier carry Thornley, Oswald and 35 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.120 the Garrison investigation. There's also the Prankster in the Conspiracy. 36 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:07.719 That's the one that I posted story of Carrie Thornley 37 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.520 and how I met Oswald and inspired the counterculture, which 38 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:17.479 Carrie Thornley's story really is unbelievable but real. Another of 39 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:19.960 his books is Happy Trails to High Weirdness, A Conspiracy 40 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.879 Theorists Tour God. The best event of Go Rightley, Who's 41 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.560 who in the Manson family is for a Damski The 42 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.319 Golden Age of the UNIFO Contact. So it's had a 43 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.240 lot of great books, So go check out Adam go Rightly. 44 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:36.919 But the new guest is Chris Graybill, who was involved 45 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:42.400 in the making of this documentary. I've been speaking all day, 46 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:45.039 I've been streaming all day, so I'm kind of tired, 47 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:47.800 but it really is the right time to do this. 48 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.360 So thanks everybody for showing up, and thank you Adam, 49 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:53.520 go Ridley and Chris Graybill for joining us. Thanks for 50 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:54.159 being on the show. 51 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.240 Thanks William. Yeah, I didn't realize that it had been four years. 52 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:03.199 Seem that long that Yeah, thanks for having me on again. 53 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.080 Yeah, thanks for having me cool. 54 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.199 So for people haven't heard Adam or Chris, maybe you 55 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.360 guys can talk Adam about your book Sastres, Boots and 56 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.800 Cooks and then what led to the creation of this documentary. 57 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.919 Yeah, so that was twenty twenty one that was published 58 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:27.759 and that deals with the whole Paul Benowitz affair that 59 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:34.840 I had to do with a disinformation campaign. Have you 60 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:42.240 a that was targeted targeted Paul Benowitz and had various 61 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.759 characters involved in that story. Names your listeners might be 62 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:54.639 familiar with the eufologist Bill Moore, the infamous Richard Dodie, 63 00:03:55.759 --> 00:04:03.159 and Paul cast of characters. But you know the long 64 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:10.599 story short. Benowitz, he was a scientist, physicist, operated a 65 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.479 business that he started in the seventies called Thunder Scientific 66 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:19.839 that was located outside of Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, 67 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:25.120 New Mexico. And he had an interest in UFOs and 68 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.279 started seeing UFOs over Kirtland Air Force Base and that 69 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:34.639 kind of started the whole quote unquote Benawitz affair where 70 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:38.480 he started filming and photographing these things and they were 71 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.120 over a sensitive area at Kirkland where they were doing 72 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:48.319 at the same time a lot of testing of experimental 73 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.920 secret aircraft and other gizmos and such. And anyway, Benowitz 74 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:01.199 started talking about the strange stuff was seen there and 75 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:08.040 contacted the Air Force security folks let them know what 76 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:11.079 was going on, what he was seeing, and of course 77 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:17.279 they took him in and talked to him and did 78 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.680 not discourage his belief that what he was seeing was extraterrestrial. 79 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:29.399 UFOs in fact went on to encourage those beliefs, and 80 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:36.279 you know, according to some of the stories, actually concocted 81 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:46.199 fake alien scenarios and different hoax documents to lead him 82 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:51.360 further on and ultimately had discredited him. And as I said, 83 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:57.199 he was a victim to this disinformation campaign that ultimately 84 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:01.040 drove him off the deep end. So that in a 85 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.839 nutshell is part of the story that I tell in Saucer, 86 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:07.560 Spooks and Cooks. 87 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:10.720 Right. So that book came out, It's got great reviews. 88 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:13.199 I just thought it was fascinating, the whole story of 89 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:18.319 Benowitz and this kind of downward spiral that happened in 90 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:22.879 twenty one. And then how did this project, the documentary 91 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:23.399 come together. 92 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:31.680 I read Adam's book after searching around for other, you know, 93 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:34.120 like a UFO story, because I wanted to make a 94 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:38.600 UFO movie, and a friend recommended me his book and 95 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.199 I read it and I had just found a whole 96 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.759 bunch of I was living in Japan at the time, 97 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.720 and I had just found a whole bunch of knep 98 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.360 on TV old UFO documentaries from like the eighties and nineties, 99 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.040 and it had like all of the characters that were 100 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.079 in the in Adam's book. And then someone turns me 101 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.279 onto the book and I'm like, oh, this is like 102 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.759 weird coincidence that it just it kind of mirrored the 103 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:14.480 the films that I was watching. So yeah, so I 104 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.199 was really intrigued, you know, like there I could you know, 105 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:19.199 there was a ton of footage for all this stuff. 106 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:21.800 And then I was thinking like, well, if I could 107 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.319 find something new to bring to the table with the beneits, 108 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.199 you know, like some new footage or something that hasn't 109 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.439 been found yet. And so I found some audio of 110 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:36.680 Benewitz that is in the film, and that kind of 111 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:38.399 set me on the course of like, Okay, I'm going 112 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:40.920 to make this, And so I reached out to Adam 113 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.879 and he was he was totally on board, and yeah, 114 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.079 that kind of was the the. 115 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:49.680 Main That's how it started. Right. So of course this 116 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:51.959 is in your first project too. You've done other projects 117 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:52.639 in the past. 118 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.160 Right, Oh yeah, I've like worked on like hundreds of 119 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:04.600 animated films and I worked on a couple of other documentaries, So. 120 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.160 So this is you know, this is not your first radio. 121 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:08.439 So you guys got together and actually went on site. Correct, 122 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.839 You guys got out there to New Mexico. Yeah, can 123 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:13.480 you talk about that? 124 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.120 Let's see. So Adam came down to La where we 125 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:23.240 filmed Greg Bishop and then that was like super intense 126 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:28.839 three hour in the heat with all my lights set up, 127 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:35.320 and then we made a road trip out to Dulce. 128 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.360 On the way to Dulce, we went stopped by Farmington 129 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:44.120 where there was a supposed flying saucer crash, but we 130 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:45.279 couldn't find anything. 131 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:52.879 Supposedly, yeah, supposedly it was according to some sources, uh, 132 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:57.840 where the Aztec saucer crashed happened. But you know, the 133 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.480 more you look into that, there's different peace people who 134 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:04.279 wrote books about as tech, and I think the site 135 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:08.639 we went to check out was somebody who had written 136 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:13.120 a book in the last couple of decades and decided 137 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:17.320 just to put his own monument out somewhere. That got 138 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:23.440 torn down at some point, So who knows. How did 139 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:23.679 you do? 140 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:25.600 You guys drive by the ship rock too on the 141 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:31.600 way to Farmington, the rock in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, no, 142 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:33.480 that's good land. I mean that whole northern part of 143 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.039 New Mexico is. 144 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.000 He didn't go by a giant crater that was It 145 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.519 was just massive. That was really fun. 146 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.759 Oh yeah, there's one right on north of It's called 147 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.720 ship Rock and it's south south along with that freeway 148 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.960 there which is five to one five. So if you 149 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.960 come east west, if you drive east west, you you 150 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.240 might have seen it if unless you drove at night. 151 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.879 I think we were taking like we were kind of 152 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.879 up really northern New Mexico too, so we might have 153 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.519 been off the beaten path of highways. 154 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:10.120 It's a haunted kind of spooky area at times. I 155 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:10.519 think that. 156 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.480 Yeah. Yeah, And we actually went out to uh Dulce 157 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:22.480 and you know, took some b roll and uh of 158 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:27.919 the actual spot supposedly where the Dulce base is located. 159 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.559 So we got gotten around quite a bit, uh two 160 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:36.360 different sites. And you can see that on the substack. 161 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:40.679 Chris is starting to post some stuff that didn't make 162 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.240 it into the film. That's kind of the design behind 163 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.639 the substack. We started and we also started a podcast, 164 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:53.159 and I think Chris posted the first episode today. 165 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.559 So what's the title of the podcast, same. 166 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:05.440 Title podcast, And the design behind it is. We filmed 167 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:08.120 a lot, We interviewed a lot of a lot of 168 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.399 people and of course, a lot went onto the cutting 169 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.080 room floor because we just ultimately didn't have room for it. 170 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:15.360 You know. 171 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.600 So it's already two hours, right, so it's a fair right. 172 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:20.840 It is pretty epic. 173 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.919 Yeah, So you know, that's kind of, like I said, 174 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.320 the design behind this to feature all the other stuff, 175 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:33.840 because there's a lot of cool interviews and stuff we 176 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:38.279 did that didn't make it into the film, so we'll 177 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.840 just repurpose those for this podcast. 178 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.879 Gotcha, So you got more content? That's great, tons of contents. 179 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.759 I'm sorry, go ahead, no, no, please continue. 180 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:54.440 I was gonna say when we got to Albuquerque, nor Ohaiakawa, 181 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.240 who we interviewed for the film, he was really nice 182 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:00.159 and like took us all around these different spots in 183 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:05.159 New Mexico or in Albuquerque, and he took us by 184 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:10.279 the Benowitz House, which I maybe his wife was still 185 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.279 living there. It's I'm not really quite sure, but that 186 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.720 was It was funny because it was kind of we 187 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.000 were not supposed to be there, so I couldn't really 188 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:23.279 film too well there, so I did get like some 189 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:28.120 stills and a little footage, but that was interesting to 190 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.320 be at that site, you know. And and right across 191 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.279 from Kirtland. 192 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.279 Right the air Force base. So you get a chance 193 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.480 to go by Zora Ranch. Oh my god, just kidding. 194 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:44.320 There might be an active investigation there now. But yeah, 195 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.960 don't they'll say. For people who don't know, it's right 196 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.679 at the border of southern Colorado, right right up kind 197 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.440 of in. It's pretty sparsely populated, right, but benow what's 198 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.039 lived in Albuquerque? Is that correct? 199 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:01.120 Mm hmm, yeah, right, as you'll see. Actually, folks will 200 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.759 go on that our sub stack there you'll see, like 201 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:10.519 Chrisma was saying, his townhouse and where he could actually 202 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:14.039 look into Kirkland Air Force Base in Monsano Mountain. That's 203 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:18.600 where you're seeing all the UFO activity or whatever you've 204 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:26.000 seen is most likely experimental aircraft. So I forgot where 205 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.480 I was going with this. But yeah, he and his 206 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.879 business Thunder Scientific, was also right at the gate of 207 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:39.879 the Kirkland Air Force Base, and his business they you know, 208 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:44.639 he was this kind of scientist, physicists, physicists, mad scientist 209 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:52.240 guy created different instruments for aircraft, you know, avionics, altimeters, 210 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.159 that type of stuff. But when he got into the 211 00:13:55.200 --> 00:14:00.720 whole UFO thing, he started devising all these other instruments 212 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.720 to pick up what he believed were alien beams and 213 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.600 signals and all of this type of stuff, when in reality, 214 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.200 at least according to some sources, what he was picking 215 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.440 up or different like spice satellites and other things they 216 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.759 were working on at Kirtland Air Force Base during this period, 217 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.799 which is why, you know, the government wanted to kind 218 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.840 of derail what he was seeing or at least confuse 219 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:35.480 him and make him believe that they were all this 220 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.480 stuff he was witnessing was actually alien craft and not 221 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.559 you know, these like this was the whole period when 222 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.000 the stillth bomber was being developed and all of this 223 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:46.799 other stuff. 224 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:52.480 Right, So Kirtland, I believe is where is it located 225 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.120 in Albuquerque? Is it the one that's south east of 226 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.000 the downtown Albuquerque's it's like a huge base, right. 227 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.399 Oh, yeah, it's huge and it's yeah, and it's adjacent 228 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:09.039 to the airport, actually is right up right up against it. 229 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:16.039 And that was part of the larger story that during 230 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.759 this whole Benowitz period when he was monitoring all this stuff, 231 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:25.639 the airport lost power and communication like for several hours 232 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.080 one day, I mean we were talking seven or eight hours, 233 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.000 and it was it was most likely on account of 234 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:38.440 something that was they were testing at Kirtland that you know, 235 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.519 made everything go haywire. 236 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.960 Yeah, so high tech stuff going on in New Mexico totally. Yeah. 237 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.679 The so you guys filmed there. You had Nori Ohayakawa, 238 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.919 who's also kind of a known UFO expert, right, is 239 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:57.559 he in the film? 240 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:05.240 Yes, yes, yeah, you know he was the What we 241 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:07.639 deal with in the film is a lot of what 242 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:13.879 was going on in the nineteen eighties with these revelations 243 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:16.720 of Kirtland Base, which were kind of a spin off 244 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:21.480 of the Benwitz affair, and that's when these stories about 245 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.080 Area fifty one emerged. So a lot of the characters 246 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.519 that were prevalent on the scene during that period we 247 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:36.799 talked to, such as Nori Ohyakawa, who was we spent 248 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:42.440 a lot of time out. He was with the citizens 249 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:48.120 group that were protesting how they were during that period 250 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.679 keeping people out of Area fifty one, where you know, 251 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.879 a lot of the same things going on at Kirtland 252 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:58.879 was happening there, you know, and a lot of these 253 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:03.639 groups were trying to figure out what exactly was going on, 254 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:09.039 you know, And so we also talked to just a 255 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:13.119 number of people David Perkins, who was had a long 256 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:21.000 history and researching cattle mutilations in the Dulce area, and 257 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.920 Christian Lambright who was involved in the Benwitz affair, and 258 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:31.279 just yeah, a whole number of people also, you know, 259 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:35.119 the characters like Bill Cooper were involved in this scene 260 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.000 during the late eighties along with John Lear kind of 261 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:45.559 pushing these emerging stories concerning what was going on at 262 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:54.160 Dulce Base with purportedly supposedly you know, there was a 263 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.960 treaty with the government with the aliens and they had 264 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:04.160 the secret base there where they were basically creating these 265 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:15.200 alien human hybrids, and all these stories later kind of informed, inspired, influenced, 266 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.640 you know, the stories we saw in X files in 267 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.440 the by the mid nineties. 268 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.440 Right, that whole area is kind of Xi. Where was 269 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.839 Bill Cooper He was headquartered somewhere around there. Was he 270 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:27.599 in Arizona and. 271 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.240 Was in Arizona for a long time. 272 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:36.519 Yeah, right, So that's also the land of the cattle 273 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:40.559 mutilations really is actually that northern New Mexico area, if 274 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:43.119 I remember for there's a lot there. 275 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.279 Yeah, and that's a that's a big part of the 276 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:51.079 story as well, because that's something that That's one of 277 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:57.000 the things that got Benowitz interested in UFOs were the 278 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:02.720 cattle mutilation and the you know, into the mutilations that 279 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.200 were going on during that period, which you know, we're 280 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:12.799 also all these researchers and investigators were trying to find out, 281 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:17.000 you know, what was the connection here going on with 282 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.799 all of these Was it similar to what was going 283 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.720 on at Kirtland where the government was happy to have 284 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:30.799 people believe that, you know, it was ets that were 285 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.240 being seen or over the base as opposed to secret aircraft, 286 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.799 and the same you know, could be you could contribute 287 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:43.880 that to the cattle mutilations that they were happy to 288 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:48.720 point people in the direction of ets being responsible for 289 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.480 the mutilations. But once again, you know, there there was 290 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.160 a prospect that it was connected to some type of 291 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:02.240 secret government project going on during that period. Right. 292 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:04.200 And for people who don't know who Greg Bishop is, 293 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.160 who's great because you guys were there talking to him too, right. 294 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.799 Uh. Yeah. He is the author of the first, really 295 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.319 the first book on the Benowitz affair project Beta, which 296 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:22.079 I would also highly recommend for anybody wants to take 297 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:23.799 a deep dive into the story. 298 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:30.200 Gotcha. So he was an integral part of the film too. 299 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:33.640 Right, Yes, definitely, yeah, I mean he was really one 300 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.319 of the biggest key parts to telling the story. 301 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.039 I feel like, kind of keeping you guys informed and 302 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.720 talking to that. Did you guys get a chance to 303 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:47.759 go to any of the other UFO sites while you 304 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:48.720 guys are on the road? 305 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:54.559 Hm? Where do we? We were mainly just hitting stuff 306 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:59.319 that had to do with the story, so we didn't 307 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:00.480 straight too far from. 308 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:05.359 That Ferdland Dolce. And the other thing is like this 309 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.319 person that was in this story who pops up still 310 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:10.680 I think is Richard Dody? 311 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:10.960 Right? 312 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.599 Can you talk about it? 313 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:18.799 So? Yeah, Richard Dody was with the Air Force Office 314 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:25.640 of Special Investigations there at Kirtland and yeah, it's a 315 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:34.000 pretty involved story. But also involved was a eufologist investigator. 316 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:39.680 Author Bill Moore wrote the book on the Roswell Incident. 317 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:45.680 And so how the Dody and Moore got connected with 318 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:51.440 Benowitz had to do with an incident where this mysterious 319 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:57.519 character who Moore has referred to as Falcon code name 320 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:04.359 over the years, allegedly a high level CIA agent came 321 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.480 in contact with more around this period we're talking nineteen 322 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:12.119 eighty after he had published his book on Roswell and 323 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:17.279 struck up a deal with him. More was prominent in 324 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:22.200 UFO circles at that time. He belonged to a group 325 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:29.279 called APRO, the Aerial phen Phenomenon Research Association, which was 326 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.920 investigating UFOs in the Southwest. Anyway, the government, the spook 327 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:41.279 types approached More and offered him a bargain. If he 328 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.319 would keep track on people in eufology and report back 329 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.359 to them, you know, working as an informant, they would 330 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:57.279 in trade give him access to top secret information related 331 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:05.000 to UFOs. And during during that period, much more so 332 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.839 than today, a lot of the folks involved in the 333 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:13.519 different UFO groups were also these guys who were civilian 334 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:20.240 contractors and who worked on uh you know, different like 335 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.119 some of the stealth projects and these type of things 336 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.119 during this period. And at the same time, you know, 337 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.720 you had you had different UFO conventions where he had 338 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.799 these civilian content tractors interested in UFOs. 339 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.119 You have. 340 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.599 Spies from the Soviet Union and China showing up upon occasion, 341 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:51.119 and so that was kind of what the interest was 342 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:56.240 in people in eufology and contacts Bill Moore had. He 343 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:01.880 had some various contacts in the Soviet Union is to 344 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:09.079 basically find find out who these find out who these 345 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:16.079 spies were, and pass on to them bogus information. And 346 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:21.359 that's where a lot of these hoax documents that a 347 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.920 lot of moving parts of the story that came out 348 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.680 during this period, d MJ twelve documents and the Aquarius 349 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:36.160 documents and all these things that were connected to Bill 350 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:42.640 Moore and Richard Dody Doty kind of, according to the 351 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.599 way he tells the story, he was a middleman or 352 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:51.799 proxy behind the high level spooks, and he was the 353 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:56.799 one that was passing more a lot of these supposedly 354 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:02.240 super secret documents. A lot of them ultimately turned out 355 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:08.000 to be hoaxed documents, like the MJ twelve papers that 356 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:14.799 basically confirmed the Roswell crash, which was kind of convenient 357 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.720 because Moore had written a book about the Roswell crash 358 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:25.720 a couple of years before these documents surfaced, and so, 359 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:31.880 you know, it's a very convoluted story that you know 360 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:36.160 and we don't know we know all the answers who 361 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.839 was involved with it. Was Bill Moore actually concocting some 362 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.640 of these documents, were more in Doty working together was 363 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.880 basically more dupe who didn't know anything, I have my suspicions, 364 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.160 but we still after all these years, really don't have 365 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.240 the answers to all the pieces of the puzzle. 366 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:01.519 Right, And it really is a complex thing. And one 367 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:03.519 of the things that I think people would be surprised 368 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:08.480 about is that these how many intel and military people 369 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.519 around at least this particular case, if not the UFO 370 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.039 movement in general. Would you agree with that? 371 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:21.240 Well, of course, yeah, you've been and I talk about 372 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:24.720 it throughout the book. It's kind of the same cast 373 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:31.039 of characters that keep reappearing over the decades that you know, 374 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.240 dating back to the likes of hal poutof back in 375 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:42.759 the early seventies with project at Stanford Research Institute where 376 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:50.559 they're doing experiments in a remote viewing for the CIA, 377 00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:55.119 And he's another one of those guys who turns up 378 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.559 in all these stories I talk about in the book 379 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.599 all the way to current date with you know, at 380 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:06.240 least this last decade with to the Stars Academy and 381 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:12.400 Tom DeLong and once again pushing stories of Roswell and 382 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.799 Flying Saucer crash retrievals. I believe they're all the connected, 383 00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:21.599 you know, And. 384 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.920 What go ahead, I was gonna say going back to 385 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:28.640 the Farmington thing there. I think the the reason that 386 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:33.720 we actually went there just to switch gears for a second, 387 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:38.400 was because in your book, Adam, there's a great chapter 388 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:44.039 called Crash Goes the Saucers, and it goes into the 389 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.440 Aztec crashed Saucer, which we found in this case was 390 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.759 in portt and and it was it was the story 391 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.079 was put out like in the nineteen fifties by this 392 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.599 guy Frank Scutt, who wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, and 393 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:09.000 he was actually being fed this stuff by this guy 394 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:13.039 named Silas Newton who had who had been just telling 395 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:15.640 the stories to him, and then he wrote it into 396 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.000 his book. Am I getting this right at him? M? 397 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 398 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.720 And so it turns out this guy Silas Newton, he 399 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:28.920 you know, it really lays out all of the tropes 400 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:33.799 from the craft saucer, like the little little people little 401 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:36.559