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You'll Prett never lost the terms 24 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:05.879 conditions eighteen plus. 25 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.159 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:21.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:28.920 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK every week, 28 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.920 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:36.959 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:39.879 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.840 Good evening. Hiring can be pretty time consuming. You post 32 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.280 a job to several online job boards only to get 33 00:01:57.319 --> 00:01:59.879 tons of the wrong resumes. 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The horror of the event would 54 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:29.080 change America forever and bring about much needed changes to 55 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:33.199 child protection and safety laws. Willis Morgan was at the 56 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.599 Hollywood Mall on the same day it was there he 57 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.360 had an unnerving encounter with serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer, known 58 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.360 as the Milwaukee Cannibal, just before Adam went missing. However, 59 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.280 his witness statements about Dahmer were rejected by police, and 60 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.879 he watched in frustration as they investigated and convicted Ottis 61 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:57.400 tool knowing they had the wrong man. Frustrated Witness details 62 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.479 the various eyewitness accounts of the events of that faithful 63 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.879 day in the mall and major flows in the police investigation. 64 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.840 In an attempt to write a wrong that continues to 65 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.639 haunt him. This is the account of Adam Walsh's abduction 66 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.879 in my attempt, stretching across decades to find justice for him. 67 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.480 Morgan writes, as much as this book is a case 68 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.959 for Jeffrey Dahmer being Adam's murderer, it is equally a 69 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:25.759 study of how the Hollywood Police Department HBD conducted the 70 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.319 homicide investigation. Morgan has left no stone unturned in his 71 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.839 quest for truth, and Frustrated Witness includes an incredible array 72 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.240 of evidence he gathered peace by painstaking peace, to prove 73 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.720 Dahmer committed the murder of Adam Walsh. This includes statements 74 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.120 of witnesses, he tracked down, crime scenes, he uncovered, police 75 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:52.120 investigated reports, he researched, an analysis of suspect composites, and 76 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:56.160 even the sordid details of Dahmer's murky past before he 77 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.800 came to be known as America's most notorious serial killer. 78 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.120 The book that we're featuring this evening is Frustrated Witness 79 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.639 the complete story of the Adam Walsh Case and police 80 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:13.240 misconduct with my special guest, journalist and author Willis Morgan. 81 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.160 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 82 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.480 for agreeing to this interview. Willis Morgan, Well, thank you, dud, 83 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:28.360 thank you very much. Incredible book. I think it's safe 84 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.959 to say that this is going to change people's minds 85 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.639 in a lot of ways about this case, the Adam 86 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:41.160 Walsh case, and about Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Tell us 87 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.920 about who you were, what you were doing, what was 88 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.319 your position July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one. What were 89 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:53.519 you doing at that time at the Miami Herald press room. 90 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.480 Tell us a little bit about what position you were 91 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.600 in at that time before we talk about July twenty seventh, 92 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.199 nineteen eighty one in your trip to Hollywood. 93 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:09.360 Mall right, okay, Well, I'm originally from New York and 94 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.600 I moved down to South Florida, uh follow after I 95 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.839 got out of the Air Force, following my parents who 96 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:18.040 down here. They had moved while I was in the 97 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:22.519 Air Force. So I came down in nineteen seventy two 98 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.160 to Miami and I took a job with the Miami 99 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:29.040 Home working as a trainee in the press room in 100 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:34.680 the printing department. So I was there since nineteen seventy two, 101 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:39.879 and about forty years after I was there, I became 102 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:43.920 the training supervisor, and so I had a job as 103 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:49.000 a supervisor. In nineteen eighty one. We were working a 104 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:53.199 four day work week, ten hours a day, forty forty 105 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.120 hours a week, so out my days off for Sunday, Monday, 106 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:06.199 and Tuesday. So Monday was my slowest day off, or 107 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:09.920 my middle day off, I should say. So. I decided 108 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.800 on Monday, July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one, to go 109 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.399 to the Hollywood Mall because I wanted to get lunch 110 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:21.079 there at the German Deli. But before I went down 111 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.959 to the Delhi, I stopped in Walden's Bookstore, browsed around, 112 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.079 didn't buy anything, though, and I headed down to the deli. 113 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.720 But since Radio Shack was on the same side of 114 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.720 the mall that I was on, I decided to stop 115 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:37.639 into Radio Shack. And it was in Radio Shack that 116 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:42.360 I had this encounter that would become something that would 117 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.879 change my life and become a you know, a part 118 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.920 of me forever. Because that encounter was so bizarre and 119 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:52.439 so strange that I actually followed this guy after he left, 120 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.759 thinking that somebody else was gonna be in trouble, and 121 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.279 I actually walk watched him walk through the mall, turn 122 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.800 into Sears, go to the baside west side of Sears, 123 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:04.720 and then turned to the right and then into the 124 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.319 toy department. I stood there for a minute, wondering what 125 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.360 this guy was doing. He never came back out. I'm thinking, well, 126 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.600 maybe he's playing the video games. So I just turned 127 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.199 around and left. And ever since that day, I've regretted that. 128 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.360 In fact, I've regretted it so much that a week later, 129 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:25.240 or even less than a week, I to remember. It 130 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.519 was a few days at least later that I joined 131 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:35.399 one of the search teams and we were searching people's backyards, uh, 132 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:38.879 garbage cans, everything, looking for anything that could have belonged 133 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.840 to Adam. They made a list and handed it out 134 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:46.039 to everybody, explained what Adam was wearing, and to keep 135 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:49.840 an eye out if we see anything like that. But 136 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.519 we never found anything. 137 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:57.240 So take us back. To take us back to July 138 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:01.320 twenty seventh though nineteen eighty one, after you see him 139 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:04.799 go to the toy department. Again, You've had this encounter 140 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:07.440 with a strange man, and we didn't talk about what 141 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.919 he actually says to you. Tell us what he says 142 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:13.320 to you and why you were alarmed And how good 143 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:14.919 a look do you get at this person? 144 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.240 Yeah, well, you know, it wasn't just what he said. 145 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:22.519 It was his whole demean or, his posture, you know, 146 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:27.480 his persona, you know everything about him. He was so disheveled, 147 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:31.080 and he had this dead, dull, blank look in his 148 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.360 eyes as he was smiling. I mean, it was just 149 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:40.840 very strange. And what happened was I walked into Radio 150 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.279 Shack and I started walking to the right side of 151 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:47.399 this aisle that ran down the middle of the store. 152 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.759 And there was a table right at the front of 153 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.120 that aisle, and it had a sign saying red Tag Sail. 154 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:56.559 And there were a lot of items on the table 155 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:58.279 and I picked something up. They caught my eye and 156 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:00.960 I was looking at it, and that's when I noticed 157 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.279 this guy standing at the entrance to Radio Shack. And 158 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:10.679 in my peripheral vision, so I look up and he 159 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:14.519 see this young, disheveled man standing there and he was 160 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:17.840 smiling at me, like I said, with his dead dull 161 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.360 look in his eyes, but yet trying to be friendly. 162 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:23.879 And he says to me, Hi, there, nice day, isn't it? 163 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.240 And I'm thinking, oh boy, this guy wants a conversation 164 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.360 or something, you know, So I didn't answer him, thinking 165 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:35.879 that once you say something, that initiates more conversation. So 166 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:38.279 I just looked back to the table with the item 167 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.200 that I was looking at. But instead of leaving, he 168 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.960 came into the radio shack and came right up to me, 169 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.840 and he repeated again, standing arm's lens uh from me, 170 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.240 and a in a very loud tone, the same thing, hither, 171 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:59.000 nice day, isn't it? And it was at that point 172 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.440 that I didn't answer again that things became very very 173 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:08.080 strange and very tense, like I said, because he was 174 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:11.399 intent on having a conversation at me and I with me, 175 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.720 and I wouldn't respond, and just to keep it short, 176 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.279 you know, uh, Like I said it that the whole 177 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:23.720 entire encounter lasted maybe for two three minutes. He that 178 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.120 he actually stood over me staring at me. Well, I'm 179 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:32.559 not responding, and til finally he turned around and just 180 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:38.840 stomped out of the radio shack. And my first feelings 181 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:43.720 were relief that he left. But then I'm thinking somebody, 182 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.320 he's gonna go up to somebody else, and somebody's gonna 183 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.399 need some help. This guy is very, very dangerous. I mean, 184 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:55.440 this is the feeling I had, just that look about him. 185 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:58.320 And so I went to the radio shack entrance and 186 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.399 I looked down the m mall the main hallway, and 187 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:04.039 at first I didn't seem but then I saw he 188 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:06.200 crossed over to the other side, and it was just 189 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.399 meandering real slow into the deep into the mall. So 190 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.759 I was watching him, and I watched him walk to 191 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.360 the Seers entrance in the interior entrance of the mall, 192 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:23.039 and then he turned right into Sears and he, like 193 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.240 I said, he walked all the way to the radio 194 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:28.200 check out to the toy department. I'm sorry, And I 195 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.799 was keeping an eye on him the whole time. But 196 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.000 I turned around and left. And when I went home 197 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.039 that very same evening, I happened to be in the 198 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.840 kitchen and I had a TV on in the living room, 199 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:44.919 and I hear on the local news they were talking 200 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:50.159 about a young boy that went missing, and all of 201 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.879 a sudden, he said, Hollywood mall the time, the location, 202 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.519 the Seers Toy Department. I'm getting right away. I'm thinking 203 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.919 that guy, who was that guy? He did it? Cause 204 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:07.200 everything matched the time. This was around noon, twelve thirty, 205 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.080 and I knew it had to be that guy, just 206 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:12.960 know his name. I didn't know who that guy was. 207 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:19.519 He never said his name. So anyway, that was Monday. Tuesday, 208 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.120 I told a couple of friends my neighbor uh. They 209 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.360 encouraged me to go to the police, but I didn't go. 210 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:33.399 But on Thursday, uh uh or a Wednesday, I should say, 211 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.879 when I went back to work Wednesday night, I was 212 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.519 telling coworkers about this, and it was some coworkers that 213 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:42.600 encouraged me to go to the police. And that's when 214 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.759 I finally decided I won't go. And so I went 215 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:49.799 there Thursday, first thing in the morning and I told 216 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:52.080 try to tell them about the encounter I had in 217 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:58.840 the UH radio shack the same day. And the detective 218 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.919 that I spoke to was very dismissive. He did not 219 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:08.039 very condescending as well, very arrogant, dismissive been kindness. That 220 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.279 was the impression I got. In fact, the actual impression 221 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.639 I was thinking at the time was they he must've 222 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.559 uh been on like duty, and they just stuck him 223 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.240 on his desk in the main lobby because they they 224 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:23.679 had a desk set up specially just for this case, right, 225 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.039 And I was trying to uh tell him what happened, 226 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.080 but uh, he only wanted to know if I had 227 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.799 a receipt to prove I was there, and if I 228 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.200 had seen the vehicle, uh and the tag number. And 229 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.639 I tried to explain to him this was inside. The 230 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:42.720 ball never went outside. So in short, he basically took 231 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:44.799 my name phone number and said, if they need me, 232 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.960 they'll get back to me. But they never got back 233 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.759 to me. Nobody's ever called me. Nothing. And then a 234 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:55.039 few days later I started seeing composits showing up the newspapers, 235 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.480 and some of those composites were the spitting image of 236 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.399 this guy that I had this encounter with. And when 237 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.320 I say spitting image, to me, they were a spitting image, 238 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.600 but close enough that I knew that we were talking 239 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.039 about the same guy whoever made those composits, sort the 240 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:17.879 same person that I saw that I had that encounter with. Okay, 241 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.000 so my thinking was, but at least they have their composite. 242 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.120 There's nothing more I can do. So I just let 243 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.279 it go. I never really did much, but I I 244 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.879 did keep following the story in the newspaper, and I said, 245 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.799 I as I said, I did join one of the 246 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.879 search teams, and so I was keeping up with this. 247 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.840 And then I started reading, uh articles about how they 248 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:42.120 were going after John Walsh's house guest because he had 249 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.960 this house guest living in his house. His name was 250 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:52.879 James Campbell, and well John Walsh was out to work. Apparently, 251 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.039 this what I was reading in the papers there was 252 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:59.279 that James was having an affair with realbeg. I mean 253 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.879 I didn't read this then. This was that part wasn't 254 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.679 in the paper, but later on when I got the 255 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.440 case files, I found out. But anyways, James Campbell was 256 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:14.039 living with John Walsh Andy. He apparently was having an 257 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.480 affair with Revee and he proposed marriage to her and 258 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:19.679 she turned him down because she had a son with John. 259 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.159 So at the time, the police was thinking they had 260 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.960 their motive and their suspect because they were thinking, uh, huh, 261 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:30.559 you get rid of the kid and you get the wife. 262 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:35.120 And on that day, uh, they were saying, cause this 263 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.480 was in the paper at the time, that John Walsh 264 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:39.799 and James Campbell were are the only two people that 265 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.440 knew where they was going to that mall, so they 266 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:47.720 they really concentrated on James Campbell in the meantime where 267 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.679 they come. While they were concentrating on him, there were 268 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:56.559 other incidents that mirrord the Hollywood. More abduction witnesses from 269 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.759 all over South Florida were calling the Hollywood Police Department 270 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.759 as as well as police chiefs from these other cities 271 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.240 South Beach, Deerfield, Riviera Beach which is north of West 272 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:14.079 Palm Beach, Plantation, and uh composites match the Hollywood Mall. 273 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.359 But they were dismissing all these other witnesses. They were 274 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.160 dismissing even the police chiefs that were calling them and 275 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.640 even making up their own police reports and and hand 276 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:29.039 delivering them to the Hollywood Police Department. They were dismissing everything. 277 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.839 They were so convinced. The lead detective, Jack Hoffman, was 278 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.680 so convinced that James Campbell was a suspect that he 279 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.839 dismissed the blue van, even though all these other locations 280 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.640 had a blue van, a white suspect that was around 281 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.359 six feet tall. And like I say, some of the 282 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.519 composites were the spitting image of the Hollywood Mall composite. 283 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.400 But according to the lead detective Jack Hoffman, back then, 284 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.599 there's an article in the Holly, the defunct Hollywood Sunset 285 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:01.519 No that's uh said that the Hollywood Police Department thought 286 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.240 they had their biggest lead in the case when there 287 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.400 was an attempted abduction in the Riviera Twin City Mall 288 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:13.200 because the composits matched and there was a blue van involved. 289 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:20.599 And like I said, everything matched. But the problem is 290 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.359 those composites, even though they matched the composites from the 291 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.799 Hollywood More, none of them matched James Campbell. So instead 292 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.359 of dismissing James Campbell, they dismissed all the witnesses from 293 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:36.519 the Riviera Beach incident and the Hollywood More. And he 294 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:42.400 also dismissed the blue van. So he never told anybody 295 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:46.880 about dismissing the blue van. So the Bowler was still 296 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.039 passed out to hundreds of police cars and they had 297 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.839 them attached to the inside of their car, and they 298 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.039 they were looking for blue vans everywhere, stopping hundreds and 299 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.279 hundreds of them. They said it was like over seven 300 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:04.720 thousand blue vans that were searched at that time, was 301 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.680 like one of the biggest vehicle searches in the history 302 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.559 of the state of Florida. In fact, if you had 303 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:13.119 a blue van and you made a U turn, the 304 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.000 police considered you trying to get away, and they would 305 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.759 pull you over and give you extra scrutiny. If you 306 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.960 had a blue van and you tried to sell it, 307 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.640 or you sold it, they would consider trying to get 308 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.519 rid of evidence, and then they would really give you 309 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:27.160 more scrutiny as well as that vehicle. They were going 310 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:34.880 to junk yards looking for blue vans and doing searches everywhere, 311 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.960 but all while Jack Hoffman had dismissed the blue van. 312 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:46.319 Tell us about your second encounter with this mystery man 313 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:48.119 at Hollywood Market. 314 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.079 I know, I sometimes I don't like it talking about 315 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.400 the second account because this sounds so odd, but it's 316 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:57.039 the truth. 317 00:19:58.039 --> 00:19:58.279 Sure. 318 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.960 The reason is the odds of meeting the same suspect twice, 319 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:08.519 you know, seems like it's like of the odds are very, very, 320 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:13.799 very slim. But about three weeks later after that first encounter, 321 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.359 I work, Like I said, I worked for a newspaper, 322 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.240 so you know, uh, the Miama Herald is a morning newspaper, 323 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:23.440 so we work, uh on the graveyard shift. Basically the 324 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.720 late shift, you know, producing the paper. So my I 325 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:31.640 would get off of work, uh sometimes around five o'clock. 326 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.359 We didn't really have time clock, so whenever we finished 327 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:38.880 is when we got off. And I live in the 328 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.160 first town over the county line north of Miami, which 329 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.960 is about eighteen miles north of where I worked. So 330 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.400 by the time I get home, it's close to five 331 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:50.839 point thirty cause there's no traffic at that time of 332 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.759 the morning. And I was pulling onto my street that 333 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:57.440 I live on, which was Bedford Avenue. It's a dead 334 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:02.079 end street, and I noticed as before I even turned 335 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.799 onto the street that there was this vehicle behind me. 336 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.240 I didn't pay attention, but then I made a right, 337 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.359 the vehicle made a right. I made a left, the 338 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.079 vehicle made a left, and as I turned on to 339 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.799 Bedford Avenue, the vehicle turned onto the same street. And 340 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.400 I'm thinking, I didn't really think anything of it, because 341 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.599 I'm thinking, this is the time of the morning where 342 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.279 they do their home deliveries, and it was they were 343 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:27.680 just doing home deliveries. So I didn't pay attention until 344 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.960 I pulled up in front of my house and I 345 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.200 had my boat in the driveway, so I parallel parked 346 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:38.400 on the street and the van, the blue van, pulled 347 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:42.440 alongside my car. I had a seventy seven Pontie at Catalina, 348 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.799 and I pulled up alongside. The guy rose his window 349 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.759 down as I'm getting out of my car, and he 350 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:56.480 says to me, Hey, do you have insurance? And I 351 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.400 didn't answer. It says, you know, you almost hit me. 352 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.400 I need to see your insurance. So I turned him 353 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:05.160 and I said almost doesn't count. And I went inside, 354 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.480 and I thought that was kind of strange. You know, 355 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.079 it wasn't in insurance. I didn't hit him. So I 356 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.720 went inside and I was in the bedroom taking my 357 00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.480 things out of my pocket. Then I decided, I don't know, 358 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.160 that was just kind of too strange. So I decided 359 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:20.599 to let me go to the kitchen and look out 360 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.680 the window and see what this guy's doing, if he's 361 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.039 still here or not. I look at the window on 362 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.480 the guy. The van's still there, and I look and 363 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.079 I see the guy is not in the vent now, 364 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.400 and I see him sitting on the hood of my 365 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.960 neighbor's car, which was also a parallel parked on the 366 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.440 street in front of a house. He was sitting on 367 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.799 the hood, which was facing the same direction as my car, 368 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.440 and he was just staring at my car and I. 369 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.680 I started to get a knife out of the kitchen draw. 370 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.440 I was gonna go back outside, but I wanted to, 371 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.039 you know, be armed with something. Then I'm thinking, no, 372 00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.240 that's not a good idea. Let me go get my gun. 373 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.279 So I go into the bedroom. I get my Burretta 374 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.599 in my thirty eight Smith and Wesson. I checked make 375 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.119 sure it's loaded, cause a lot of times I don't 376 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.160 keep the first chamber loaded. I wanted to make sure 377 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.240 I had it on a chamber that was ready to go. 378 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:19.200 And I go outside, but he was gone. And it 379 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:21.359 was at that time when I when I didn't. It 380 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.079 took me a while to realize that's the same guy 381 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.039 from the mall. I didn't at first, I just because 382 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:29.599 I wasn't paying attention to him. I was trying to 383 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:31.960 ignore him. So I, you know, I didn't put it 384 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.960 together until I got my gun and went outside, and 385 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.519 I'm thinking that's the guy, and so I immediately ran 386 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:42.279 back inside, got my car keys, and I ran back outside. 387 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:44.039 I got my car, and I of course I have 388 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:49.079 my gun with me, so uh that helps, and I 389 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:51.519 started searching everywhere for him, and I couldn't find him. 390 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:55.799 He just disappeared into the streets. I wouldn't note till 391 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.720 they released the case files that I was looking through 392 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.319 the files and I saw just a block from my 393 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.160 house where another witness called in that blue van and 394 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:10.720 said that the van and the guy matched the composites 395 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.519 from the Hollywood Mall. So I'm thinking, uh huh, that 396 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.680 he was there. That has to be this guy. But 397 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:20.200 you know, more than that, there's nothing to prove that 398 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.799 it was him. But I'm one hundred percent certain. And 399 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:27.640 when I see the mugshot of Jeffrey Dhmer, that was 400 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:32.559 taking just two months after Adam's abduction, because when Dohmer 401 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.559