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Speaker 4: July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one, six year old Adam
Speaker 4: Walsh was abducted from the Hollywood Mall in Hollywood, Florida,
Speaker 4: and later found decapitated. The horror of the event would
Speaker 4: change America forever and bring about much needed changes to
Speaker 4: child protection and safety laws. Willis Morgan was at the
Speaker 4: Hollywood Mall on the same day it was there he
Speaker 4: had an unnerving encounter with serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer, known
Speaker 4: as the Milwaukee Cannibal, just before Adam went missing. However,
Speaker 4: his witness statements about Dahmer were rejected by police, and
Speaker 4: he watched in frustration as they investigated and convicted Ottis
Speaker 4: tool knowing they had the wrong man. Frustrated Witness details
Speaker 4: the various eyewitness accounts of the events of that faithful
Speaker 4: day in the mall and major flows in the police investigation.
Speaker 4: In an attempt to write a wrong that continues to
Speaker 4: haunt him. This is the account of Adam Walsh's abduction
Speaker 4: in my attempt, stretching across decades to find justice for him.
Speaker 4: Morgan writes, as much as this book is a case
Speaker 4: for Jeffrey Dahmer being Adam's murderer, it is equally a
Speaker 4: study of how the Hollywood Police Department HBD conducted the
Speaker 4: homicide investigation. Morgan has left no stone unturned in his
Speaker 4: quest for truth, and Frustrated Witness includes an incredible array
Speaker 4: of evidence he gathered peace by painstaking peace, to prove
Speaker 4: Dahmer committed the murder of Adam Walsh. This includes statements
Speaker 4: of witnesses, he tracked down, crime scenes, he uncovered, police
Speaker 4: investigated reports, he researched, an analysis of suspect composites, and
Speaker 4: even the sordid details of Dahmer's murky past before he
Speaker 4: came to be known as America's most notorious serial killer.
Speaker 4: The book that we're featuring this evening is Frustrated Witness
Speaker 4: the complete story of the Adam Walsh Case and police
Speaker 4: misconduct with my special guest, journalist and author Willis Morgan.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 4: for agreeing to this interview. Willis Morgan, Well, thank you, dud,
Speaker 4: thank you very much. Incredible book. I think it's safe
Speaker 4: to say that this is going to change people's minds
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways about this case, the Adam
Speaker 4: Walsh case, and about Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Tell us
Speaker 4: about who you were, what you were doing, what was
Speaker 4: your position July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one. What were
Speaker 4: you doing at that time at the Miami Herald press room.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about what position you were
Speaker 4: in at that time before we talk about July twenty seventh,
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty one in your trip to Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Mall right, okay, Well, I'm originally from New York and
Speaker 3: I moved down to South Florida, uh follow after I
Speaker 3: got out of the Air Force, following my parents who
Speaker 3: down here. They had moved while I was in the
Speaker 3: Air Force. So I came down in nineteen seventy two
Speaker 3: to Miami and I took a job with the Miami
Speaker 3: Home working as a trainee in the press room in
Speaker 3: the printing department. So I was there since nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 3: and about forty years after I was there, I became
Speaker 3: the training supervisor, and so I had a job as
Speaker 3: a supervisor. In nineteen eighty one. We were working a
Speaker 3: four day work week, ten hours a day, forty forty
Speaker 3: hours a week, so out my days off for Sunday, Monday,
Speaker 3: and Tuesday. So Monday was my slowest day off, or
Speaker 3: my middle day off, I should say. So. I decided
Speaker 3: on Monday, July twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one, to go
Speaker 3: to the Hollywood Mall because I wanted to get lunch
Speaker 3: there at the German Deli. But before I went down
Speaker 3: to the Delhi, I stopped in Walden's Bookstore, browsed around,
Speaker 3: didn't buy anything, though, and I headed down to the deli.
Speaker 3: But since Radio Shack was on the same side of
Speaker 3: the mall that I was on, I decided to stop
Speaker 3: into Radio Shack. And it was in Radio Shack that
Speaker 3: I had this encounter that would become something that would
Speaker 3: change my life and become a you know, a part
Speaker 3: of me forever. Because that encounter was so bizarre and
Speaker 3: so strange that I actually followed this guy after he left,
Speaker 3: thinking that somebody else was gonna be in trouble, and
Speaker 3: I actually walk watched him walk through the mall, turn
Speaker 3: into Sears, go to the baside west side of Sears,
Speaker 3: and then turned to the right and then into the
Speaker 3: toy department. I stood there for a minute, wondering what
Speaker 3: this guy was doing. He never came back out. I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 3: maybe he's playing the video games. So I just turned
Speaker 3: around and left. And ever since that day, I've regretted that.
Speaker 3: In fact, I've regretted it so much that a week later,
Speaker 3: or even less than a week, I to remember. It
Speaker 3: was a few days at least later that I joined
Speaker 3: one of the search teams and we were searching people's backyards, uh,
Speaker 3: garbage cans, everything, looking for anything that could have belonged
Speaker 3: to Adam. They made a list and handed it out
Speaker 3: to everybody, explained what Adam was wearing, and to keep
Speaker 3: an eye out if we see anything like that. But
Speaker 3: we never found anything.
Speaker 4: So take us back. To take us back to July
Speaker 4: twenty seventh though nineteen eighty one, after you see him
Speaker 4: go to the toy department. Again, You've had this encounter
Speaker 4: with a strange man, and we didn't talk about what
Speaker 4: he actually says to you. Tell us what he says
Speaker 4: to you and why you were alarmed And how good
Speaker 4: a look do you get at this person?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, it wasn't just what he said.
Speaker 3: It was his whole demean or, his posture, you know,
Speaker 3: his persona, you know everything about him. He was so disheveled,
Speaker 3: and he had this dead, dull, blank look in his
Speaker 3: eyes as he was smiling. I mean, it was just
Speaker 3: very strange. And what happened was I walked into Radio
Speaker 3: Shack and I started walking to the right side of
Speaker 3: this aisle that ran down the middle of the store.
Speaker 3: And there was a table right at the front of
Speaker 3: that aisle, and it had a sign saying red Tag Sail.
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of items on the table
Speaker 3: and I picked something up. They caught my eye and
Speaker 3: I was looking at it, and that's when I noticed
Speaker 3: this guy standing at the entrance to Radio Shack. And
Speaker 3: in my peripheral vision, so I look up and he
Speaker 3: see this young, disheveled man standing there and he was
Speaker 3: smiling at me, like I said, with his dead dull
Speaker 3: look in his eyes, but yet trying to be friendly.
Speaker 3: And he says to me, Hi, there, nice day, isn't it?
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking, oh boy, this guy wants a conversation
Speaker 3: or something, you know, So I didn't answer him, thinking
Speaker 3: that once you say something, that initiates more conversation. So
Speaker 3: I just looked back to the table with the item
Speaker 3: that I was looking at. But instead of leaving, he
Speaker 3: came into the radio shack and came right up to me,
Speaker 3: and he repeated again, standing arm's lens uh from me,
Speaker 3: and a in a very loud tone, the same thing, hither,
Speaker 3: nice day, isn't it? And it was at that point
Speaker 3: that I didn't answer again that things became very very
Speaker 3: strange and very tense, like I said, because he was
Speaker 3: intent on having a conversation at me and I with me,
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't respond, and just to keep it short,
Speaker 3: you know, uh, Like I said it that the whole
Speaker 3: entire encounter lasted maybe for two three minutes. He that
Speaker 3: he actually stood over me staring at me. Well, I'm
Speaker 3: not responding, and til finally he turned around and just
Speaker 3: stomped out of the radio shack. And my first feelings
Speaker 3: were relief that he left. But then I'm thinking somebody,
Speaker 3: he's gonna go up to somebody else, and somebody's gonna
Speaker 3: need some help. This guy is very, very dangerous. I mean,
Speaker 3: this is the feeling I had, just that look about him.
Speaker 3: And so I went to the radio shack entrance and
Speaker 3: I looked down the m mall the main hallway, and
Speaker 3: at first I didn't seem but then I saw he
Speaker 3: crossed over to the other side, and it was just
Speaker 3: meandering real slow into the deep into the mall. So
Speaker 3: I was watching him, and I watched him walk to
Speaker 3: the Seers entrance in the interior entrance of the mall,
Speaker 3: and then he turned right into Sears and he, like
Speaker 3: I said, he walked all the way to the radio
Speaker 3: check out to the toy department. I'm sorry, And I
Speaker 3: was keeping an eye on him the whole time. But
Speaker 3: I turned around and left. And when I went home
Speaker 3: that very same evening, I happened to be in the
Speaker 3: kitchen and I had a TV on in the living room,
Speaker 3: and I hear on the local news they were talking
Speaker 3: about a young boy that went missing, and all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, he said, Hollywood mall the time, the location,
Speaker 3: the Seers Toy Department. I'm getting right away. I'm thinking
Speaker 3: that guy, who was that guy? He did it? Cause
Speaker 3: everything matched the time. This was around noon, twelve thirty,
Speaker 3: and I knew it had to be that guy, just
Speaker 3: know his name. I didn't know who that guy was.
Speaker 3: He never said his name. So anyway, that was Monday. Tuesday,
Speaker 3: I told a couple of friends my neighbor uh. They
Speaker 3: encouraged me to go to the police, but I didn't go.
Speaker 3: But on Thursday, uh uh or a Wednesday, I should say,
Speaker 3: when I went back to work Wednesday night, I was
Speaker 3: telling coworkers about this, and it was some coworkers that
Speaker 3: encouraged me to go to the police. And that's when
Speaker 3: I finally decided I won't go. And so I went
Speaker 3: there Thursday, first thing in the morning and I told
Speaker 3: try to tell them about the encounter I had in
Speaker 3: the UH radio shack the same day. And the detective
Speaker 3: that I spoke to was very dismissive. He did not
Speaker 3: very condescending as well, very arrogant, dismissive been kindness. That
Speaker 3: was the impression I got. In fact, the actual impression
Speaker 3: I was thinking at the time was they he must've
Speaker 3: uh been on like duty, and they just stuck him
Speaker 3: on his desk in the main lobby because they they
Speaker 3: had a desk set up specially just for this case, right,
Speaker 3: And I was trying to uh tell him what happened,
Speaker 3: but uh, he only wanted to know if I had
Speaker 3: a receipt to prove I was there, and if I
Speaker 3: had seen the vehicle, uh and the tag number. And
Speaker 3: I tried to explain to him this was inside. The
Speaker 3: ball never went outside. So in short, he basically took
Speaker 3: my name phone number and said, if they need me,
Speaker 3: they'll get back to me. But they never got back
Speaker 3: to me. Nobody's ever called me. Nothing. And then a
Speaker 3: few days later I started seeing composits showing up the newspapers,
Speaker 3: and some of those composites were the spitting image of
Speaker 3: this guy that I had this encounter with. And when
Speaker 3: I say spitting image, to me, they were a spitting image,
Speaker 3: but close enough that I knew that we were talking
Speaker 3: about the same guy whoever made those composits, sort the
Speaker 3: same person that I saw that I had that encounter with. Okay,
Speaker 3: so my thinking was, but at least they have their composite.
Speaker 3: There's nothing more I can do. So I just let
Speaker 3: it go. I never really did much, but I I
Speaker 3: did keep following the story in the newspaper, and I said,
Speaker 3: I as I said, I did join one of the
Speaker 3: search teams, and so I was keeping up with this.
Speaker 3: And then I started reading, uh articles about how they
Speaker 3: were going after John Walsh's house guest because he had
Speaker 3: this house guest living in his house. His name was
Speaker 3: James Campbell, and well John Walsh was out to work. Apparently,
Speaker 3: this what I was reading in the papers there was
Speaker 3: that James was having an affair with realbeg. I mean
Speaker 3: I didn't read this then. This was that part wasn't
Speaker 3: in the paper, but later on when I got the
Speaker 3: case files, I found out. But anyways, James Campbell was
Speaker 3: living with John Walsh Andy. He apparently was having an
Speaker 3: affair with Revee and he proposed marriage to her and
Speaker 3: she turned him down because she had a son with John.
Speaker 3: So at the time, the police was thinking they had
Speaker 3: their motive and their suspect because they were thinking, uh, huh,
Speaker 3: you get rid of the kid and you get the wife.
Speaker 3: And on that day, uh, they were saying, cause this
Speaker 3: was in the paper at the time, that John Walsh
Speaker 3: and James Campbell were are the only two people that
Speaker 3: knew where they was going to that mall, so they
Speaker 3: they really concentrated on James Campbell in the meantime where
Speaker 3: they come. While they were concentrating on him, there were
Speaker 3: other incidents that mirrord the Hollywood. More abduction witnesses from
Speaker 3: all over South Florida were calling the Hollywood Police Department
Speaker 3: as as well as police chiefs from these other cities
Speaker 3: South Beach, Deerfield, Riviera Beach which is north of West
Speaker 3: Palm Beach, Plantation, and uh composites match the Hollywood Mall.
Speaker 3: But they were dismissing all these other witnesses. They were
Speaker 3: dismissing even the police chiefs that were calling them and
Speaker 3: even making up their own police reports and and hand
Speaker 3: delivering them to the Hollywood Police Department. They were dismissing everything.
Speaker 3: They were so convinced. The lead detective, Jack Hoffman, was
Speaker 3: so convinced that James Campbell was a suspect that he
Speaker 3: dismissed the blue van, even though all these other locations
Speaker 3: had a blue van, a white suspect that was around
Speaker 3: six feet tall. And like I say, some of the
Speaker 3: composites were the spitting image of the Hollywood Mall composite.
Speaker 3: But according to the lead detective Jack Hoffman, back then,
Speaker 3: there's an article in the Holly, the defunct Hollywood Sunset
Speaker 3: No that's uh said that the Hollywood Police Department thought
Speaker 3: they had their biggest lead in the case when there
Speaker 3: was an attempted abduction in the Riviera Twin City Mall
Speaker 3: because the composits matched and there was a blue van involved.
Speaker 3: And like I said, everything matched. But the problem is
Speaker 3: those composites, even though they matched the composites from the
Speaker 3: Hollywood More, none of them matched James Campbell. So instead
Speaker 3: of dismissing James Campbell, they dismissed all the witnesses from
Speaker 3: the Riviera Beach incident and the Hollywood More. And he
Speaker 3: also dismissed the blue van. So he never told anybody
Speaker 3: about dismissing the blue van. So the Bowler was still
Speaker 3: passed out to hundreds of police cars and they had
Speaker 3: them attached to the inside of their car, and they
Speaker 3: they were looking for blue vans everywhere, stopping hundreds and
Speaker 3: hundreds of them. They said it was like over seven
Speaker 3: thousand blue vans that were searched at that time, was
Speaker 3: like one of the biggest vehicle searches in the history
Speaker 3: of the state of Florida. In fact, if you had
Speaker 3: a blue van and you made a U turn, the
Speaker 3: police considered you trying to get away, and they would
Speaker 3: pull you over and give you extra scrutiny. If you
Speaker 3: had a blue van and you tried to sell it,
Speaker 3: or you sold it, they would consider trying to get
Speaker 3: rid of evidence, and then they would really give you
Speaker 3: more scrutiny as well as that vehicle. They were going
Speaker 3: to junk yards looking for blue vans and doing searches everywhere,
Speaker 3: but all while Jack Hoffman had dismissed the blue van.
Speaker 4: Tell us about your second encounter with this mystery man
Speaker 4: at Hollywood Market.
Speaker 3: I know, I sometimes I don't like it talking about
Speaker 3: the second account because this sounds so odd, but it's
Speaker 3: the truth.
Speaker 4: Sure.
Speaker 3: The reason is the odds of meeting the same suspect twice,
Speaker 3: you know, seems like it's like of the odds are very, very,
Speaker 3: very slim. But about three weeks later after that first encounter,
Speaker 3: I work, Like I said, I worked for a newspaper,
Speaker 3: so you know, uh, the Miama Herald is a morning newspaper,
Speaker 3: so we work, uh on the graveyard shift. Basically the
Speaker 3: late shift, you know, producing the paper. So my I
Speaker 3: would get off of work, uh sometimes around five o'clock.
Speaker 3: We didn't really have time clock, so whenever we finished
Speaker 3: is when we got off. And I live in the
Speaker 3: first town over the county line north of Miami, which
Speaker 3: is about eighteen miles north of where I worked. So
Speaker 3: by the time I get home, it's close to five
Speaker 3: point thirty cause there's no traffic at that time of
Speaker 3: the morning. And I was pulling onto my street that
Speaker 3: I live on, which was Bedford Avenue. It's a dead
Speaker 3: end street, and I noticed as before I even turned
Speaker 3: onto the street that there was this vehicle behind me.
Speaker 3: I didn't pay attention, but then I made a right,
Speaker 3: the vehicle made a right. I made a left, the
Speaker 3: vehicle made a left, and as I turned on to
Speaker 3: Bedford Avenue, the vehicle turned onto the same street. And
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, I didn't really think anything of it, because
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, this is the time of the morning where
Speaker 3: they do their home deliveries, and it was they were
Speaker 3: just doing home deliveries. So I didn't pay attention until
Speaker 3: I pulled up in front of my house and I
Speaker 3: had my boat in the driveway, so I parallel parked
Speaker 3: on the street and the van, the blue van, pulled
Speaker 3: alongside my car. I had a seventy seven Pontie at Catalina,
Speaker 3: and I pulled up alongside. The guy rose his window
Speaker 3: down as I'm getting out of my car, and he
Speaker 3: says to me, Hey, do you have insurance? And I
Speaker 3: didn't answer. It says, you know, you almost hit me.
Speaker 3: I need to see your insurance. So I turned him
Speaker 3: and I said almost doesn't count. And I went inside,
Speaker 3: and I thought that was kind of strange. You know,
Speaker 3: it wasn't in insurance. I didn't hit him. So I
Speaker 3: went inside and I was in the bedroom taking my
Speaker 3: things out of my pocket. Then I decided, I don't know,
Speaker 3: that was just kind of too strange. So I decided
Speaker 3: to let me go to the kitchen and look out
Speaker 3: the window and see what this guy's doing, if he's
Speaker 3: still here or not. I look at the window on
Speaker 3: the guy. The van's still there, and I look and
Speaker 3: I see the guy is not in the vent now,
Speaker 3: and I see him sitting on the hood of my
Speaker 3: neighbor's car, which was also a parallel parked on the
Speaker 3: street in front of a house. He was sitting on
Speaker 3: the hood, which was facing the same direction as my car,
Speaker 3: and he was just staring at my car and I.
Speaker 3: I started to get a knife out of the kitchen draw.
Speaker 3: I was gonna go back outside, but I wanted to,
Speaker 3: you know, be armed with something. Then I'm thinking, no,
Speaker 3: that's not a good idea. Let me go get my gun.
Speaker 3: So I go into the bedroom. I get my Burretta
Speaker 3: in my thirty eight Smith and Wesson. I checked make
Speaker 3: sure it's loaded, cause a lot of times I don't
Speaker 3: keep the first chamber loaded. I wanted to make sure
Speaker 3: I had it on a chamber that was ready to go.
Speaker 3: And I go outside, but he was gone. And it
Speaker 3: was at that time when I when I didn't. It
Speaker 3: took me a while to realize that's the same guy
Speaker 3: from the mall. I didn't at first, I just because
Speaker 3: I wasn't paying attention to him. I was trying to
Speaker 3: ignore him. So I, you know, I didn't put it
Speaker 3: together until I got my gun and went outside, and
Speaker 3: I'm thinking that's the guy, and so I immediately ran
Speaker 3: back inside, got my car keys, and I ran back outside.
Speaker 3: I got my car, and I of course I have
Speaker 3: my gun with me, so uh that helps, and I
Speaker 3: started searching everywhere for him, and I couldn't find him.
Speaker 3: He just disappeared into the streets. I wouldn't note till
Speaker 3: they released the case files that I was looking through
Speaker 3: the files and I saw just a block from my
Speaker 3: house where another witness called in that blue van and
Speaker 3: said that the van and the guy matched the composites
Speaker 3: from the Hollywood Mall. So I'm thinking, uh huh, that
Speaker 3: he was there. That has to be this guy. But
Speaker 3: you know, more than that, there's nothing to prove that
Speaker 3: it was him. But I'm one hundred percent certain. And
Speaker 3: when I see the mugshot of Jeffrey Dhmer, that was
Speaker 3: taking just two months after Adam's abduction, because when Dohmer
Speaker 3: was fired from his job, he was working down here
Speaker 3: at a sub shot. He got fired in late September
Speaker 3: and went back to Ohio and October seventth he got
Speaker 3: arrested for this orderly conduct and had a mugshot taken.
Speaker 3: And that mugshot is the closest similarity to the person
Speaker 3: that was in the Hollywood Mall because his hair is
Speaker 3: still long, he's still got his floor to tan, and
Speaker 3: it looks just like the guy. And that was sitting
Speaker 3: on my neighbor's car, and that I encountered in the
Speaker 3: radio shock, and I knew that was him. That's the
Speaker 3: guy was Jeffrey Dahmer. There's no question. In fact, I
Speaker 3: knew it even before I saw that photo. I knew
Speaker 3: the day Jeffrey Dahmer was. There was an article on
Speaker 3: the paper and we were doing paper checks in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety one, and there was a story, it was on
Speaker 3: page eight A of this guy that was arrested in
Speaker 3: Milwaukee for doing some pretty horrendous things in his apartment
Speaker 3: up there. And I didn't even know at that time
Speaker 3: that this guy was ever in Florida. This was just
Speaker 3: a story about Milwaukee. But when I got to page
Speaker 3: eight A and I saw this little mugshot, I recognized
Speaker 3: the guy instantaneously, and I started freaking out. I started saying, Hey,
Speaker 3: this is the guy. This is the guy I saw
Speaker 3: on the mall that day, you know. And so anyway,
Speaker 3: I took that paper, and since I worked for a newspaper,
Speaker 3: I called what we called the library. The library is
Speaker 3: a storage room actually, because back in those days they
Speaker 3: didn't have computers, so they stored hard copies of all
Speaker 3: the Mimmy hold papers and they would do research. But
Speaker 3: if you wanted research done, you had to have a
Speaker 3: pretty close idea of a date, which I did July
Speaker 3: twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one, because remember this is nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety one. Ten years later, almost to the week. I
Speaker 3: called the library up and I asked him, I says,
Speaker 3: you remember the composite that ran in the paper of
Speaker 3: the from the out of Walsh abduction. And they said yes,
Speaker 3: of course, and I says it was July twenty seventh,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one. A few days after that, the composits
Speaker 3: started showing them, can you send me the composite? And
Speaker 3: they did what I didn't realize until two thousand and
Speaker 3: eight when they closed the case. They sent me the
Speaker 3: wrong They sent me one from one of those other incidents,
Speaker 3: and that mirrored the Hollywood mall. And I took it
Speaker 3: back to the police department with the newspaper, the mugshot
Speaker 3: from the paper, and I showed it to them. I said, look,
Speaker 3: this is the guy that I saw on them all.
Speaker 3: The first thing they want to know is well for
Speaker 3: forty doing coming in now, come in and come into
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty one and I said, but I did
Speaker 3: come in eighty one, they had no clue that I
Speaker 3: was ever there. You know, that detective that that I
Speaker 3: talked at the front desk actually was the police officer
Speaker 3: in full uniform that I talked to. Apparently he didn't
Speaker 3: pass his notes on, so nobody knew anything that I
Speaker 3: was there. And but their jaws dropped when I showed
Speaker 3: him the mugshot because there was a spitting image and
Speaker 3: you've seen it, Dan, the mug shot as well as
Speaker 3: the composite, they are a perfect match. And they knew.
Speaker 3: The detective of Jack Laufman, who was still on the case,
Speaker 3: knew that that mugshot was from the Twin City mall
Speaker 3: that he dismissed, as well as all these other incidents
Speaker 3: that he kept dismissing. So what does he do. He
Speaker 3: goes into full cover up mode. And it was about
Speaker 3: that time when all the oddist tube evidence grew legs
Speaker 3: and walked off. You know, even even the Hollywoo Police
Speaker 3: Department says evidence was lost.
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Speaker 1: LL necessary D.
Speaker 3: I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that autists, so sorry, pardon me. Let's
Speaker 4: talk about and.
Speaker 3: Get lost is what I was going to say. I
Speaker 3: believe it was expunged, and who had the most to
Speaker 3: lose was Jack Hoffman.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the autist tool.
Speaker 4: What he said because we glossed over that he confessed
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty three to be able to explain Jack
Speaker 4: Hoffman and everyone else's behavior afterward, and Hollywood Police Department,
Speaker 4: let's talk about what artist Tool said and why how
Speaker 4: was he in a situation to say anything to these
Speaker 4: investigators about Adam Walsh? Right, Well, as you're doing the book,
Speaker 4: tell us about.
Speaker 3: That, right. Artists Tool injected himself not only into the
Speaker 3: Adam Walsh case, but until hundreds, hundreds, literally literally hundreds
Speaker 3: of cases throughout the United States and police departments all
Speaker 3: over the country were coming down to interview him. This
Speaker 3: is in Jacksonville where he was at the Duval County
Speaker 3: Jail to interview him so they can close cases in
Speaker 3: their cities, and many cases were closed all over the
Speaker 3: country until police started realizing that the timelines were clashing.
Speaker 3: He can't be on both East Coast and West Coast
Speaker 3: at the same time committing murders, so one by one
Speaker 3: they had to reopen their case and dismiss otist Tool
Speaker 3: is nothing but a tall tale and a liar and
Speaker 3: a storyteller. That's every police department except for one, that's
Speaker 3: the Hollywood Police Department. They still kept going after him
Speaker 3: for months afterwards, and in the beginning, he was getting
Speaker 3: his stories so wrong. He he claimed it was in January.
Speaker 3: He claimed that, uh, you know, everything, the subscription of
Speaker 3: Adam he got wrong. What Adam was wearing he got wrong.
Speaker 3: He got everything wrong until about the fourth interview. Cause
Speaker 3: these cops, these detectives kept feeding them information unwittingly. They
Speaker 3: would showing crime scene photos of where this severed head
Speaker 3: was found so they he could recollect his memory, you know,
Speaker 3: of what happened, and so they would feeding this information.
Speaker 3: In fact, by the fourth interview, Jack Hoffman said to
Speaker 3: uh ottist tool as artist, because otis who claimed when
Speaker 3: he was getting the information wrong that it was because
Speaker 3: he was intoxicated. So by the fourth interview he started
Speaker 3: getting the answers or correct to conform what the detectives
Speaker 3: wanted the answers to be. And Jack Hoffman says to him, says, artists, ah,
Speaker 3: sh you sure you were intoxicated, because you're getting all
Speaker 3: the answers right now after he gave him the answers,
Speaker 3: and even the Hollywood Police Department, though after about four
Speaker 3: months dismissed out his tool. So Ottis two was totally dismissed.
Speaker 3: In fact, I called one of the lead detectives, the
Speaker 3: second lead detective, Ron Hickman, and I talked to him,
Speaker 3: and this is after they closed the case, and I
Speaker 3: told him about the police chief closed in the case.
Speaker 3: At first, he had no clue who I was, you know,
Speaker 3: he said, he's been on the case since its inception.
Speaker 3: He's never heard of me. And then he started saying, oh, yes,
Speaker 3: I do remember you now because I remember reading a
Speaker 3: bout a lawsuit, you know, because I filed lawsuits against
Speaker 3: the Hollywood Police Department and one of the detectives over
Speaker 3: there named Joe Matthews, as well as a lawsuit against
Speaker 3: the State Attorney's office because we're all covering up facts
Speaker 3: in the case. And so he remembered the lawsuit and
Speaker 3: I asked him, I said, listen, run you know when
Speaker 3: when the Hollywood Police Chief closed the case. In his statement,
Speaker 3: he said detectives, investigators passed and present all believed Artist
Speaker 3: Tool was the suspect. And he goes to me, goes, well,
Speaker 3: they know I don't. And so he said that to
Speaker 3: me personally. But then when you go back in the
Speaker 3: case files and read all their statements, every one of
Speaker 3: them dismiths Artist Tool. Ottist two was totally dismissed until
Speaker 3: until Joe Matthews decided to make Ottist Tool the suspect.
Speaker 3: Because Joe Matthews is always always wanted Ottist Tool to
Speaker 3: be the suspect.
Speaker 4: You talk about Joe Matthews also wanting to be an author.
Speaker 4: I'll tell us a little bit about the book and
Speaker 4: if that had any relation to or any motivation for
Speaker 4: his artist Tool as his main suspect for Adam walsh abduction.
Speaker 3: Right a couple of years before they closed the Adam
Speaker 3: Walsh's case in two thousand and eight, Revey contacted Revere
Speaker 3: and John Wolls contacted Joe Matthews. Because even though John
Speaker 3: Walsh wrote his book Tears of Rage, the title being
Speaker 3: the rage over the Hollywood Police Departments the way they
Speaker 3: were handling the investigation of his son. In fact, in
Speaker 3: his book he calls all of them, you know, the
Speaker 3: biggest bunch of I mean, stumbling idiots since the Keystone Cops.
Speaker 3: But now, all of a sudden, let me back up
Speaker 3: a little bit, and nineteen a b. Nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 3: February eighth, I believe it was John Walsh was chosen
Speaker 3: to host America's Most Wanted Well one of these detectors,
Speaker 3: his name was Joe Matthews, called John Walsh and befriended him.
Speaker 3: And this is the one that n t you know
Speaker 3: and is putting all his money on out his tool
Speaker 3: even though all everyone else has dismissed out his tool.
Speaker 3: So he befriended John Walsh, and John Walsh hired this
Speaker 3: detective as the senior lead investigator on America's Most Wanted. So,
Speaker 3: so John Walsh had one of these detectives in his
Speaker 3: mythst for years, feeding false information about his own son's abduction.
Speaker 3: And the reason John Walsh had faith in this guy
Speaker 3: is because Joe Matthews was also UH up polygraph examiner.
Speaker 3: He had his own business called uh the Southern Institute
Speaker 3: of Polygraph and the Hollywood Police Department hired his company
Speaker 3: to do the polygraphs of James Campbell and John Walsh,
Speaker 3: and he dismissed them both. So John Walsh felt gratitude apparently,
Speaker 3: you know, that's my opinion. But whatever John Walsh did,
Speaker 3: hiure him and he had him write in his midst
Speaker 3: for years on America's Most Wanted. So around two thousand six,
Speaker 3: I would say where they wanted UH UH to get
Speaker 3: the case finally closed. You wanted uh closure. So John
Speaker 3: went and called Joe Matthews and asked him if he
Speaker 3: were doing an independent investigation, and he did so. He
Speaker 3: came up with this manuscript that he named after himself
Speaker 3: called the Matthews Report. In that report, which is a
Speaker 3: four hundred page report, he totally pins Adam's murder on
Speaker 3: artist tool. And he comes to this conclusion without calling
Speaker 3: not one witness, No one witness that was at the
Speaker 3: Hollywood Mall and believed me. They were n well over
Speaker 3: a dozen. Not one witness from any of the other incidents.
Speaker 3: The only people that uh that I. I never read
Speaker 3: the report cause he refuses to show it to anybody now.
Speaker 3: But his book that he wrote that he that he
Speaker 3: had a co author right for him, was based on
Speaker 3: the manuscript. He gave that manuscript to a co author
Speaker 3: and said, hey, can you format this into a book,
Speaker 3: And that book is called Bringing Adam Home. So in
Speaker 3: that book he never mentions any of the witnesses and
Speaker 3: he uh, except for one. And but then he says
Speaker 3: that one witness called him and said that it was
Speaker 3: out of s He was kicked out of the stry
Speaker 3: well with with Adam. But all of that is fake too,
Speaker 3: because I found that witness's sister and she was there
Speaker 3: with him, and she denies that. And he's passed away,
Speaker 3: so he can't speak for himself. But anyway, the only
Speaker 3: witnesses that Matthew's uses in that book, uh witnesses like
Speaker 3: artist tools, uh, cellmates and people that were in prison
Speaker 3: with him who would say things like, yeah, everybody in
Speaker 3: prison knows how his tool did it and things like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, no evidence whatsoever. And one of his biggest
Speaker 3: pieces of evidence that he uses is his a shroud
Speaker 3: of turn photo that he claims he found, which would
Speaker 3: you know anybody could find I I got copies of him.
Speaker 3: Anybody can get copies of public information, you know. And
Speaker 3: he claims that they were hidden him. When he first
Speaker 3: looked at this one photo, his eyes popped out of
Speaker 3: his head because he saw Adam. Well, I've got the
Speaker 3: same role and there in my book. They're in my
Speaker 3: uh my web site. If anybody doesn't want to buy
Speaker 3: the book, or you can just go to Frustrated Witness
Speaker 3: dot com or or you can go to Justice for
Speaker 3: Adam dot com. I have two websites. One website Frustrated
Speaker 3: Witness is about the book Frustrated Witness and the Witnesses
Speaker 3: and all that the other book UH. The website Justice
Speaker 3: for Adam dot com is where all the case files
Speaker 3: can be UH found for free. The State Attorney's Office
Speaker 3: case files that I paid over eighteen hundred dollars is
Speaker 3: to have put on a to a CD ROMP set
Speaker 3: I posted there. I have the Hollywood Police case files,
Speaker 3: the FBI files for Jeffrey Dahmer, the Milwaukee Police Department
Speaker 3: files for the UH for Jeffrey Dahmer, and all of
Speaker 3: that and much more can be viewed Justice for Adam
Speaker 3: dot com, including my lawsuit. I have a folded there
Speaker 3: for my lawsuit. But anyway, Matthew's formatted that into a
Speaker 3: book called Bringing Adam Home. And that report, the Matthews Report,
Speaker 3: he gave to the Hollywood Police Department, and he bamboos
Speaker 3: the chief, the police chief, Chad Wagner, and to closing
Speaker 3: the case based on that manuscript. And in his book
Speaker 3: he claims that he wanted that manuscript to be used
Speaker 3: by police departments throughout the United States as an example
Speaker 3: of how to solve a cold case, and he used
Speaker 3: it as their guide but like I said, he never
Speaker 3: called not one witness and he never mentions any of
Speaker 3: them in his book. And about that blue van on
Speaker 3: page twenty six of Bringing Adam Home, this is what
Speaker 3: Matthews has to say about the blue van that's been spotted.
Speaker 3: This is the blue van that's been spotted at all
Speaker 3: three locations that we'll get into relevant to the Adam
Speaker 3: Wilsh case. The Hollywood Ball would numerous witnesses saw Adam
Speaker 3: be tossed into a blue van. Okay, the Twin City
Speaker 3: Mall incident, which isn't I'm digressionally that doesn't have anything
Speaker 3: to do with the Adam Wallsh case. War does but
Speaker 3: not according to the police, there was a blue van.
Speaker 3: But anyways, the Hollywood Mall the location the three locations.
Speaker 3: The second location would be the location where adam severed
Speaker 3: head was found, So let's talk about that for a second.
Speaker 3: There was a blue van there. What happened was Adam
Speaker 3: severed head was found by two fishermen on August seventh,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty I'm sorry, August tenth, nineteen eighty one. On
Speaker 3: August eleventh, witnesses started calling the Hollywood Police Department from
Speaker 3: that location and one of them was a public's truck driver.
Speaker 3: Because this was on the Florida Turnpike. There's a small
Speaker 3: canal there on the side of the turnpike, and these
Speaker 3: two fishermen were fishing in that canal that it was
Speaker 3: like a reservoir, and they they saw a head floating.
Speaker 3: At first, they thought it was a doll's head, and
Speaker 3: they rode over to it, and then they realized it
Speaker 3: was a human. So they rode back to their truck
Speaker 3: real quick. And they didn't have our cell phones back then,
Speaker 3: so they caught on the CBE radio to their job
Speaker 3: and they had them call the highway patrol and they
Speaker 3: went out there. But on August eleventh, Dennis bub one
Speaker 3: of the witnesses that was driving a public truck along
Speaker 3: that route, called the Hollywood Police Department to tell them
Speaker 3: that he saw a blue van at that site on
Speaker 3: August seventh, three days before it was found the seventh head.
Speaker 3: And when he told them about the blue van. This
Speaker 3: is what Dennis told me how they responded, Okay, this quotes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: we already know about the blue van. Has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with the Adam Walsh case. Dennis doesn't know which
Speaker 3: detective he talked to the name of the detective. But
Speaker 3: that's what the detective that he spoke to said to him,
Speaker 3: and they dismissed him. Now, there was another public's driver
Speaker 3: driving five minutes behind Dennis. So Dennis called on a
Speaker 3: CB radio to the Clifton Ramie who is behind him,
Speaker 3: and said, hey, there's a blue van on the side
Speaker 3: of the road. Check it out. So, like I said,
Speaker 3: Dennis saw what dennisaw was this man standing on his
Speaker 3: little footbridge taking something round out of a bucket and
Speaker 3: thrown it into the water at twelve thirty in the
Speaker 3: morning on August seventh. Now how would that not peak
Speaker 3: someone's attention when he tells the Hollywood Police Department that
Speaker 3: if I was a homicide detective, I jump at that information,
Speaker 3: especially when there's a blue van involved, instead of telling them, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: we already know about the blue van. Has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with the Adam Walsh case. You know, what about
Speaker 3: something round being taken out of a bucket he tossed
Speaker 3: into the water. So anyway, Clifton Raymie called also on
Speaker 3: August eleventh because he was, like I said, five minutes
Speaker 3: behind Dennis, and when he passed the blue van, he
Speaker 3: said in his statement that he saw a man standing
Speaker 3: by the side sliding door of the blue van and
Speaker 3: he could see him fumbling with a bucket because the
Speaker 3: dome light, you know, when the doors were opened, the
Speaker 3: dome lights were on, and the light was on, and
Speaker 3: he could see this guy fumbling with this bucket, you know,
Speaker 3: because he was looking to see if the guy was stranded,
Speaker 3: if he needed any help. But and he thought maybe
Speaker 3: he had an overheated engine or that's why he was
Speaker 3: getting water. He didn't really know, but he didn't stop,
Speaker 3: he didn't do anything. But that was his statement. So
Speaker 3: you have two witnesses right there, and there were several
Speaker 3: other witnesses that call. Every one of them were dismissed,
Speaker 3: all of them. And also the third location that's relevant
Speaker 3: with a blue van is where Jeffrey Dhmer worked. Okay,
Speaker 3: he worked in the subway shop as a busboy. There's
Speaker 3: numerous witnesses there that confirmed they had three vehicles, two
Speaker 3: white pickup trucks and a blue van. They used them
Speaker 3: for delivery. The two white pickup trucks in the winter time,
Speaker 3: they used all three vehicles for deliveries, but the van
Speaker 3: was more expensive on gas, so they only used the
Speaker 3: two white pickup trucks in the summer because that was
Speaker 3: the off season. And keep in mind, this was in
Speaker 3: the middle of the summer, so they didn't really use
Speaker 3: the blue van. So they used to just keep it
Speaker 3: parked on the side of the store and all the
Speaker 3: employees could just take it and use it, and that's
Speaker 3: what they were doing, including Jeffrey Dohmer.
Speaker 4: You talk about other witnesses, sorry, you talk about other
Speaker 4: witnesses that also saw the van. But you get this
Speaker 4: information much later when the Adam Walsh case files are open,
Speaker 4: and then you contact people like Timothy Pottenberg, Vernon Jones,
Speaker 4: a bunch of people that's again confirmed the blue van
Speaker 4: and actually a couple of those witnesses you talk about
Speaker 4: Philip Loore uh seeing Dahmer carrying at him out the
Speaker 4: west exit of them all that day, right, tell us
Speaker 4: about tell us a little bit more about the FBI's response.
Speaker 4: You say you tried to.
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Speaker 4: Details contact them. But also the FBI's involvement in this case,
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about that. As you're do
Speaker 4: in the book right, Well, you.
Speaker 3: Know, there isn't much FBI involvement because the FBI doesn't
Speaker 3: get involved in cases unless it involved and invited in
Speaker 3: so nobody wanted to invite them in see the Hollywood
Speaker 3: police suput them. Jack kaff and the lead investigator in
Speaker 3: the case, wanted to solve the case on his own.
Speaker 3: He didn't want any outside help. In John Walsh's book,
Speaker 3: John Walsh even says that you like the Roali Chef's
Speaker 3: office offered to help, and other police agencies offered assistance,
Speaker 3: but he turned everybody down. He didn't want any help.
Speaker 3: He wanted to solve the case all on his own,
Speaker 3: going after James Campbell. So he never wanted the FBI
Speaker 3: to get involved in the FBI can't just come and
Speaker 3: get involved in a local case because there was no
Speaker 3: proof that Adam ever left the state of Florida, right
Speaker 3: and only if there's a proof that you know, this
Speaker 3: was pross state lines, would the FBI get involved even
Speaker 3: if they weren't invited. But as long as a homicide
Speaker 3: is in state, the FBI doesn't get involved. So they
Speaker 3: never really got involved. But the FBI did have Jeffrey
Speaker 3: Dharmer files because they did get involved in that because
Speaker 3: there was multiple states there that he's been in. The
Speaker 3: problem with those case files is they're so redacted. Every
Speaker 3: witness is there, you can't look up any witnesses because
Speaker 3: they all have their name was blotted out. Unlike the
Speaker 3: Hollywood Police Department, who had the most to lose, City
Speaker 3: FBI had nothing to lose, but the Hollywood Police upon
Speaker 3: everything to lose. They redacted nobody's name. And that's how
Speaker 3: I was able to track down all these witnesses. I
Speaker 3: did it through joining people search sites and as well
Speaker 3: as some of my best searchers came from public record
Speaker 3: sites like tax offices, you know, Barwid County tax Appraiser's office,
Speaker 3: because if you own property, then you would be listed there.
Speaker 3: So I figured most of these people would have property,
Speaker 3: and most of them did, and so they were I
Speaker 3: was able to locate most of the witnesses and they
Speaker 3: told me some you know, pretty Halloween stories. That's how
Speaker 3: I got Philip Law, you know, I found his name
Speaker 3: in the case filed and looked him up. Jenny Warren,
Speaker 3: billbo and all of these witnesses, Jennis Anthemsino, so many.
Speaker 3: And we can talk about another witness, Mia Taylor, who
Speaker 3: was there with her brother Joel, not only the day
Speaker 3: Adam was abducted, but the day before Adam was abducted.
Speaker 3: As well, they went in the toy department where their
Speaker 3: mother was close by shopping, and Jeffrey Dahmer came into
Speaker 3: the toy department and tried to abduct her brother Joel,
Speaker 3: And fortunately for Joel, the security guard came over that
Speaker 3: day and tried to get everybody to be quiet, and
Speaker 3: their mother showed up, and so Mia said, there's mom,
Speaker 3: and they ran to their mother and when and at
Speaker 3: the same time, the security guard shows up and Dahma
Speaker 3: takes off. On the way outside, she saw the same
Speaker 3: disheveled man standing next to and leaning on the side
Speaker 3: of the blue van, so she's also a blue van witness.
Speaker 3: The very next day, they were back at the same
Speaker 3: wall and her and her brother stick away from their
Speaker 3: mom and went to the toy department again, and the
Speaker 3: same disheveled guy was there, and she says she saw
Speaker 3: him leaning over Adam and talking to him in a
Speaker 3: whispered tone, and then she saw him take Adam by
Speaker 3: the fingertips and walk out with him. And her mother
Speaker 3: showed up at that very moment, and Joel said, Mom,
Speaker 3: I want to stay with my friend, because he was
Speaker 3: standing there next to Adam, and she said no, His
Speaker 3: daddy's here now, so Pegy me and his mother thought
Speaker 3: Dahma was his dad. Philip law who saw Dahma dragging
Speaker 3: Adam out of the store, he started turning around and
Speaker 3: started walking backwards watching this because Adam is screaming, I
Speaker 3: don't want to go. You're not my daddy, and he
Speaker 3: was man handling this boy, and Philip was thinking, boy,
Speaker 3: you know his son was that abe. She wouldn't handle
Speaker 3: his son like that, So he started watching this walking backwards.
Speaker 3: He was going to the service counter to pay a bill,
Speaker 3: but while he was in mine, he decided to run
Speaker 3: back outside and check the blue van. The guy and
Speaker 3: Adam were all gone. And when I say the blue
Speaker 3: van was gone is because Philip lost his parking space
Speaker 3: when he was coming into the store. Because the blue
Speaker 3: van was parking the fireline, blocking the northbound traffic and
Speaker 3: so cars had only one lane they would have to
Speaker 3: go around it and it and what happened was phil
Speaker 3: lost the parking space that he had an eye on
Speaker 3: and he had to get another one further away. And
Speaker 3: then on top of that, he had to walk around
Speaker 3: the blue van when he went into the store. So
Speaker 3: he was really upset about it. So he remembers the
Speaker 3: blue van when he went back out, but it was
Speaker 3: all gone. And Philip was thinking, you know, because he
Speaker 3: hesitated when he saw this incident, thinking well, the boys scream,
Speaker 3: you know, not my daddy. He's thinking, well, maybe that's
Speaker 3: like a stepfather. You know how kids they don't treat
Speaker 3: the stepfathers the same as they would a real father,
Speaker 3: and so sometimes they don't listen to them. So but
Speaker 3: then Bill had second thoughts and man outside another witness,
Speaker 3: Bill Bowen saw in the parking lot. He saw this
Speaker 3: guy dragging this boy up, holding him up off the
Speaker 3: ground by one arm, and then he opens the door
Speaker 3: and throws them into this van like a sack of
Speaker 3: potatoes quote unquote, that's Bill's quote, like a sack of potatoes.
Speaker 3: And then the guy jumps in and screeches off. Bill
Speaker 3: burns over gets the tag number because the way Bill says,
Speaker 3: to this day, he still smells the members, the smell
Speaker 3: of burnt rubber from the vehicle taking off. A couple
Speaker 3: of days later, he gave the tag number to the police.
Speaker 3: That nobody knows what happened to that, because they don't
Speaker 3: even know Bill went to them. In fact, Bill called
Speaker 3: them five times, no less than five times. He kept
Speaker 3: getting answer machines and leaving messages, and leaving messages. Nobody
Speaker 3: would call them back until like the about the fifth
Speaker 3: time he got a live person, and they told Bill
Speaker 3: that the person he needs to speak to is on
Speaker 3: vacation and needs to call back in two weeks. Bill
Speaker 3: tried to explain to them that he's moving to Alabama.
Speaker 3: That's why he went to the seers to change his
Speaker 3: addresses Billion address, and so they said, okay, we'll contact you.
Speaker 3: They took his information, but nobody's ever contacted Bill. And
Speaker 3: then in nineteen ninety one, as I said, Domis mugshot
Speaker 3: made the paper because it not only made the Herald,
Speaker 3: like I said, when I saw it, it made every
Speaker 3: paper across the United States. Bill saw Domis mugshot in
Speaker 3: the paper, the Birmingham Paper, and he took that paper
Speaker 3: with the mugshot and on his own, came all the
Speaker 3: way back to Hollywood, Florida, walked into that Hollywood Police
Speaker 3: department and said, hey, look this is the guy I
Speaker 3: saw at the Hollywood Mall. And they said the same
Speaker 3: thing to him. They said, to me, what are you
Speaker 3: doing coming in now? Coming in and coming here in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one, said what are you talking about? I
Speaker 3: gave you the tag number. I kept calling five times.
Speaker 3: I finally got a light person they told me called
Speaker 3: back in two weeks, and then they took my name
Speaker 3: in phone umber and nobody's ever called me. And so again,
Speaker 3: you know, they messed that case up so bad that
Speaker 3: all their dots started coming together in nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 3: and they knew how bad they messed up, more miserable
Speaker 3: than anyone knows. Even John Walsh doesn't realize how when
Speaker 3: he called them the biggest bunch of bumbling, stumbling idiots
Speaker 3: in's Keystone Cops, he don't realize how bad they really were.
Speaker 3: They were worse than John Walsh could even imagine. So
Speaker 3: who what John Walsh experience was bad enough for them
Speaker 3: to call call them names like that. If John Walsh
Speaker 3: really could accept the truth, who knows what he would
Speaker 3: think of them, Because you know, John Walsh has accepted
Speaker 3: Joe Matthews. Like I said, revee two years before they
Speaker 3: closed the case, asked Joe Matthews to reinvestigate the case,
Speaker 3: which he did, and he bamboos to the police chief in
Speaker 3: the closing, which he did, and Revey is satisfied with
Speaker 3: that closing. So is John Walsh. You know, it's like
Speaker 3: the Stockholm syndrome. You know when he wrote a book,
Speaker 3: lambbast you all these detectives. Now that they finally give
Speaker 3: him his closure, now they were all his This is
Speaker 3: John Walsh's own quote, his best friends and colleague. So
Speaker 3: John Walsh doesn't want to hear anything from anybody. In fact,
Speaker 3: on the thirty seventh anniversary, which was just this last
Speaker 3: July twenty seventh, Channel ten down here in South Florida,
Speaker 3: WPLG did an anniversary story podcast about the show. They
Speaker 3: interviewed John Walsh, They interviewed Joe Matthews. They tried to
Speaker 3: interview the police chief, Chad Wagner, but he said everything
Speaker 3: I said at the closing is all I've got to say,
Speaker 3: and he would say no more than that. Other than
Speaker 3: detectives all went into their hiding, their hiding in the retirement.
Speaker 3: They don't want to even talk to anybody. They uh.
Speaker 3: She also interviewed me in that show. You could listen
Speaker 3: to that show, just the fifth episode. I have it
Speaker 3: on my on my on my uh website Frustrated witness
Speaker 3: dot com. You can go listen to it. So John
Speaker 3: wallsh tell us the show accuses me, without mentioning my name,
Speaker 3: of trying to make money off his dead son. But
Speaker 3: what John doesn't realize, I've spent thousands and thousands of
Speaker 3: my own dollars doing my mitochondrial DNA testing from the
Speaker 3: murder site where I believe Adam was murdered. So I
Speaker 3: spent thousands of dollars that I will never make back.
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to make money. This is not about money.
Speaker 3: It's about justice. Because these cops, they go after the
Speaker 3: week to pour the down trodden who have no family,
Speaker 3: no education, no money, and nobody comes to their aid,
Speaker 3: and they pin murders on them to make themselves look good.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly Let's talk to artist tool.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about the lawsuit. Let's talk about the lawsuit
Speaker 4: against Joe Matthews. Tell us more about it, your purpose,
Speaker 4: your intent, what people criticize you for regarding it.
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, listen, Joe Matthews manuscript member, I told
Speaker 3: you that he gave that manuscript to the police chief,
Speaker 3: and the police chief wrote a letter and attacked to
Speaker 3: that manuscript and sent it to the State Attorney's office saying, hey,
Speaker 3: read this manuscript because we would like to close the
Speaker 3: Adam Walsh case and we want your opinion. What a
Speaker 3: district attorney, the assistant District Attorney, Charles Morton, he reads
Speaker 3: it and attaches his own letter back to the police department,
Speaker 3: the police chief Chad Ryan saying, yes, this is a
Speaker 3: great report proving artist to a murdered Adam, which means
Speaker 3: the Hollywood Police Department read that manuscript and they accepted
Speaker 3: the findings of it. So did the State Attorney's office.
Speaker 3: Now down here in Florida, we have laws. Okay, Sunshine
Speaker 3: was Florida. Sunshine was that say, anything that's used in
Speaker 3: a murder case or any case has to be part
Speaker 3: of the case files and subject to public domain and
Speaker 3: by the public. So those files should be part of
Speaker 3: the record, the adamos case files. I went to the
Speaker 3: Hollywood Police, I asked him for that manuscript. They don't
Speaker 3: want to show it to me. I first went to
Speaker 3: Joe Matthews asked him for it, and because I wanted to,
Speaker 3: you know, show him what I had and compared to
Speaker 3: what he had, well, obviously he wouldn't show it to me.
Speaker 3: I went to the State attorney's office. They wouldn't show
Speaker 3: it to me. Nobody wants to show me this manuscript
Speaker 3: that should be part of the case files. Not only that,
Speaker 3: when the police closed the case on National TV December sixteenth,
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, he praised Joe Matthews, who was
Speaker 3: sitting there right next to him, and he said that
Speaker 3: Joe Matthews put that manuscript together proving that it was
Speaker 3: out of which means that he accepted the findings. But
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, when they wouldn't show it to me,
Speaker 3: I decided I was gonna file a lawsuit to get it,
Speaker 3: which I did, And all of a sudden, now that
Speaker 3: they're being sued in court, they're telling saying now that
Speaker 3: they didn't really use that manuscript. It was nothing more
Speaker 3: this is their quote, than a regurgitation under oath their quote,
Speaker 3: a regurgitation of everything they already knew. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: of any use. So they never kept it and they
Speaker 3: gave it back to Joe. But Sunshine Laws, there's nothing
Speaker 3: to do with what your opinion is of it, whether
Speaker 3: it's the regurgitation of everything you know or not. Once
Speaker 3: you accepted it has to be part of the case files.
Speaker 3: That's the law. So Joe Matthews naturally, now all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, he's a defendant on the plane SLI filed
Speaker 3: the lawsuit, right, so he doesn't want to show his manuscripts.
Speaker 3: So he eyes his attorney, Tom Panzer. Now this Tom
Speaker 3: is like one of the biggest lobbyists down here. He
Speaker 3: donates money to these chefs, to the judges, you know,
Speaker 3: and they have caps on how much you can donate
Speaker 3: down here, and but he gets around the cap it's
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars by doing what's called as bundling. Bundling
Speaker 3: is when you donate your five hundred many times over
Speaker 3: by using other names. For instance, he donates his five hundred,
Speaker 3: his wife donates five hundred, his wife's business dot, he's
Speaker 3: the light donates five hundred and six year old daughter,
Speaker 3: they donates five hundred. Is even younger son donates five hundred,
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's how he
Speaker 3: gets around that, so that when he goes in front
Speaker 3: of these judges, gets favorable hearings and also he gets
Speaker 3: cases defending these cops on. There are many, many scandals,
Speaker 3: especially a broad chef's office that he's defended them many
Speaker 3: times because of some of their scandals. So naturally, here
Speaker 3: I am suing these guys at the end, this including
Speaker 3: the state attorney. You know, they say, you can't fight city,
Speaker 3: or you can't you're never gonna win. And this is
Speaker 3: the reason it's called political expediency. These judges will never
Speaker 3: give an average citizen affair a hearing. So my lawsuit
Speaker 3: was dismissed. I peeled it, and the appeals court also
Speaker 3: dismissed it. They rubber stampony seventeenth District's decision. The judge
Speaker 3: even stated the appeals court judge stated, all the chief
Speaker 3: said he didn't use it. I mean, this isn't a
Speaker 3: judge should know. That's irrelevant whether he used it or not,
Speaker 3: right because, like I said, his opinion of what that
Speaker 3: report was. They've been wrong so many times. You know,
Speaker 3: there's a very good chance they could be wrong one
Speaker 3: more time. That that report was useless, you know, and
Speaker 3: it only became useless after I sued. So I write
Speaker 3: about the whole loss. In fact, you could read about
Speaker 3: the laws of at justice Fadam dot com as well
Speaker 3: as several chapters of my book. And there was another
Speaker 3: lawsuit in nineteen ninety five by a reporter who also
Speaker 3: asked for the Adam Mors case files, and they refused
Speaker 3: to show it to them to him back then, and
Speaker 3: so he filed a lawsuit against the Hollywood Police Department.
Speaker 3: But he won his lawsuit in nineteen ninety six the court,
Speaker 3: the seventeen Court too, the seventeen Just Recort in Fort Lauderdale.
Speaker 3: Judge Moe ordered the Hollywood Police Department to release those
Speaker 3: files on February I believe it was February eighth, nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety six that were released to the public. But now
Speaker 3: on that podcast, I see John Walsh claiming that those
Speaker 3: files were never released. He got them in two thousand
Speaker 3: and eight when they closed the case, which isn't true.
Speaker 3: John Walsh gets so much information wrong about his own
Speaker 3: son's abduction. They've been public information ever since nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 3: those files.
Speaker 4: How do you explain that he wouldn't know that, as
Speaker 4: you do explain.
Speaker 3: It, he should because he was part of the lawsuit.
Speaker 3: What happened was the Hollywood Police Department they got rid
Speaker 3: of Jack Hoffman when that lawsuit was filed. Okay, so
Speaker 3: they ushered him off the case and they put a
Speaker 3: new detective on the case that they claimed was a
Speaker 3: cold case specialist. Actually, in my book, I call him
Speaker 3: more of a cold case cover up specialists because when
Speaker 3: he first took over the case in nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 3: he claimed that due to the length of time, it
Speaker 3: would be impossible to find any new suspects in the
Speaker 3: Adamo's case. But then all of a sudden, when there
Speaker 3: was a lawsuit, he found suspects because he did not
Speaker 3: want those files to be released to the public, and
Speaker 3: so he told the court that listen, we're still doing
Speaker 3: an investigation. We have new suspects. We could end up
Speaker 3: getting a grand jury together to listen to this, but
Speaker 3: you got to give us more time. And then the
Speaker 3: judge wasn't going along with that, so he convinced John
Speaker 3: Walsh to side on the side of the police department.
Speaker 3: So John Walsh even decided on the side of the
Speaker 3: police department trying to keep those files sealed. So John
Speaker 3: Walsh knew that those files weren't kept sealed, and the
Speaker 3: judge ordered them to be released in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 4: John Walsh know that, you explain though that unfortunately John
Speaker 4: Walsh was They did a fantastic job Hollywood Police Department
Speaker 4: in convincing him when they didn't close this case. They
Speaker 4: used him, they used his program, they used his sorrow,
Speaker 4: you say, but.
Speaker 3: They even told John Walsh, please do us a favor,
Speaker 3: do yourself a favor. Okay, we do not want these
Speaker 3: files released because there's information there that'll get out into
Speaker 3: the public and will never catch the guy. So John
Speaker 3: Walsh went along with that. In fact, on America's Most Wanted,
Speaker 3: he never even did an episode on his own son's
Speaker 3: abduction until until they decided to cancel the show. The
Speaker 3: last episode was done about his son. They did bring
Speaker 3: the show back, but when they first canceled, they did
Speaker 3: do an episode on it, and that in that episode,
Speaker 3: Joe Matthews, remember at that time, was the lead investigator
Speaker 3: of America's Most Wanted. So that episode totally pinned Adam's
Speaker 3: murder on his tool. So John Walsh was convinced. He
Speaker 3: even said how great that show came out. He was
Speaker 3: very satisfied with it. But other witnesses all of a
Speaker 3: sudden when that air started calling the Hollywood Police Department,
Speaker 3: because every time those kinds of shows air, witnesses start calling,
Speaker 3: and numerous witnesses called, and that's how I got other
Speaker 3: witnesses too, like Janis at the Messino. You know, she
Speaker 3: saw that show and she tried to call America's Most
Speaker 3: Wanted and she told him, listen, I just watched your
Speaker 3: show doing a reenactment with a white cadillact. And she
Speaker 3: explained that she was there and there was a blue van,
Speaker 3: and she remembers the blue van because the blue van
Speaker 3: was parked on the in the fire lane and she
Speaker 3: was coming around the corner almost and were ended the
Speaker 3: blue van because she wasn't expecting the blue be a
Speaker 3: blue van in the northbound lane there, and she almost
Speaker 3: ended it, so she remembered it. In fact, when she
Speaker 3: parked and went inside the mall with her two daughters,
Speaker 3: she was going to report the blue van, but then
Speaker 3: once she was inside the most she forgot about it.
Speaker 3: But she was in the toy department because a daughter
Speaker 3: wanted to look at some barbie dolls and she saw
Speaker 3: this the shoveled man there and they locked eyes with
Speaker 3: Janie and and she he just put the fear in her.
Speaker 3: So she got out of there. And then it was
Speaker 3: later that you know that I think days later or
Speaker 3: the next day. She heard about that abduction, and she
Speaker 3: always knew, you know, that had had to be related
Speaker 3: because the composits were coming out, they were matching. They
Speaker 3: dismissed her as well, and so she called John Walsh
Speaker 3: and after they did that show and tried to tell him,
Speaker 3: he forwarded her name to the UH. How the police
Speaker 3: department says, hey call this person and interview her. They
Speaker 3: never called her. Never. There's so many people that he
Speaker 3: tells them to call and they never call. And I
Speaker 3: was gonna say that. You good.
Speaker 4: You talk about being a frustrated witness, and we haven't
Speaker 4: talked about the extent of your frustration with law enforcement.
Speaker 4: You talk about Joe Matthews, you talk about Jack Hoffman,
Speaker 4: but all the successors, everyone you contacted, you still came
Speaker 4: up to the same It was in the same result.
Speaker 4: Tell us about some of the efforts you made to
Speaker 4: convince people, especially after you went and did this independent
Speaker 4: investigation practically again with all that information, what was the response.
Speaker 3: Well, listen, about a year before the Adam Mors case
Speaker 3: was closed, this new detective took over, Chad Wagner. And
Speaker 3: the reason he took over the police departments because the
Speaker 3: former chief before him, he resigned because there was a
Speaker 3: scandal there. And what happened was the FBI heard that
Speaker 3: there was a lot of corruption at this police department,
Speaker 3: so they infiltrated the police department with an FBI agent,
Speaker 3: and the FBI agent acted as a kingpin for the
Speaker 3: mafia as a coppo because the FBI heard that they
Speaker 3: were being drugs escorted from different locations by police carts.
Speaker 3: So anyway, they set up a stinger operation and they
Speaker 3: got these police officers to actually give police escurts for
Speaker 3: thirty eight dollars an hour, using uniforms in uniform with
Speaker 3: their police cart of from Port Everglades to warehouses. There
Speaker 3: were trucks filled with drugs, well not real drugs because
Speaker 3: this was just a sting operation. But anyway, so after
Speaker 3: a while, the police chief, his name was Scarberry, he
Speaker 3: leaked to his underlings that the FBI was on to them,
Speaker 3: and so all of a sudden, the FBI, to protect
Speaker 3: their agent, had to call the the sting operation off
Speaker 3: and they raided the Hollywood Police Department and four of
Speaker 3: them would ended up in prison for long term prison terms.
Speaker 3: And the agent said, there would have been a lot
Speaker 3: more netted, you know, had the chief not leaked to
Speaker 3: his underlings about the sting operation. But anyway, this new
Speaker 3: police chief takes over. So I write to this new
Speaker 3: police chief, Chad Wag and I congratulate him on his
Speaker 3: new position and explain who I am. And I told
Speaker 3: him I'd like to have an interview. But I'd never
Speaker 3: get an answer. So I started calling down there. Never
Speaker 3: never get no response, answer machines and nobody ever calls
Speaker 3: me back. I started going to other locations complaint file complaints.
Speaker 3: I went to the City Hall complaints department. I filed
Speaker 3: a complaint against them, and I left him with a
Speaker 3: whole portfolio of information as well. And the woman I
Speaker 3: talked to, her name was shoel Lehoune at the complaints department.
Speaker 3: She was very interested in what I was saying. She
Speaker 3: listened to me for like well over forty minutes, and
Speaker 3: I gave her portfolio and she said she wanted me
Speaker 3: to come in and talk to the board there. They
Speaker 3: meet every Tuesday, she tell me, and the Board of
Speaker 3: commissions there, she said, the mayor will be there. You
Speaker 3: need to tell the mayor this. So anyway, she never
Speaker 3: called me back. After about ten days, I called her
Speaker 3: back and all of a sudden, her attitude changed. She goes, well,
Speaker 3: if you have an issue with the Hollywoo Police Department,
Speaker 3: you need to go to them to resolve your problems.
Speaker 3: So I said, well, listen, can I just get my
Speaker 3: portfolio back? Says well, if you want your portfolio back,
Speaker 3: you have to go to the Hollywod Police Department together.
Speaker 3: I mean, her whole attitude was so obvious. Somebody put
Speaker 3: her in check, you know, and told her to just
Speaker 3: get rid of me. So I I went to the
Speaker 3: uh Sheriff's Department. I wrote to uh Charlie crist the
Speaker 3: governor of Florida, uh uh. And and all these people
Speaker 3: were apparently calling the Hollywood Police Department and asking them
Speaker 3: what's going on. Because all of a sudden, one of
Speaker 3: the detectives, his name is Lyleban, calls me up at
Speaker 3: home and he goes, okay, I'm gonna give you that meeting.
Speaker 3: I'm gon what meeting? Who is this? There is a
Speaker 3: detective while being at the Hollywood Police Department and says, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: so you want me to come in from me? He said, yeah,
Speaker 3: come in Tuesday seven pm like that. So, yeah, well
Speaker 3: I showed up, but I made sure I let people
Speaker 3: know where I was gonna be at, and I met
Speaker 3: the police chief and I asked them to make sure
Speaker 3: that this is gonna be an amical meeting, and he
Speaker 3: assured me it would be. And he left me there
Speaker 3: with these two detectives in a meeting room. And these
Speaker 3: detectives acted more like deceased Dahmers unsourced attorney than they
Speaker 3: did homicide investigators. They did everything they could to try
Speaker 3: and get rid of me as a witness. In fact,
Speaker 3: you know, for instance, when I was telling them about
Speaker 3: how I followed Dahmer, and you know, they would say
Speaker 3: things like, well, what are you doing following somebody? And
Speaker 3: I know that more better than you do. You could
Speaker 3: have been at this point when he was at that point,
Speaker 3: and the more you know, stuff like that, just trying
Speaker 3: to get rid of me, and you can't. You didn't
Speaker 3: actually see the abduction, so you can't even say it
Speaker 3: was DOMI was him. So but anyway, finally, when none
Speaker 3: of that was working, they decided to use a threat
Speaker 3: in the witness tactic, you know, with arrest. So Loube
Speaker 3: jumps up, flailing his arms about and he goes You
Speaker 3: just admitted you were there. For we know you could
Speaker 3: have done it. How about if we arrest you? And
Speaker 3: then he backs up a couple of steps, folds his
Speaker 3: arm like a tough guy, and with a smirk on
Speaker 3: his face, he says to me, so I think you
Speaker 3: want to come back you again? In other words, takeoff,
Speaker 3: go away. We don't want to hear from many witnesses.
Speaker 3: So and during that meeting, I even offered to take
Speaker 3: a polygraph test because I could see they weren't believing
Speaker 3: anything I was saying. But they were, but they were
Speaker 3: just trying to get rid of me. But I offered,
Speaker 3: and they said, well, polygraphs don't mean anything. They just
Speaker 3: mean you saw what you think you saw. And I
Speaker 3: was so incensed. After I left, I went and I
Speaker 3: self sponsored my own polygraph exam that I paid six
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty dollars for. In fact, at first I
Speaker 3: went to a polygraphic examiner in Hollywood that was supposed
Speaker 3: to be really well renowned, but they told me that
Speaker 3: they do a lot of work for the Hollywood Police
Speaker 3: Department and that it would be a conflict of interest
Speaker 3: if they gave me one, so they wouldn't they do it?
Speaker 3: They refused, so I couldn't even get a polygraph test
Speaker 3: in the same town, so I had to go way
Speaker 3: south of Miami. I found somebody who had a good reputation,
Speaker 3: and he gave me the polygraph exam, which I passed
Speaker 3: with flying colors, which is good, like I said, because
Speaker 3: I paid six hundred and fifty dollars for it. And
Speaker 3: then he also in that and his report, he had
Speaker 3: some not so good things to say about the Hollywood
Speaker 3: Police Department because I didn't give him a portfolio to
Speaker 3: look over, you know, before I came back for the
Speaker 3: polygraph exam. So that exam is in the book. Two
Speaker 3: pages except of it is in my book as well
Speaker 3: as in my website, so Justice for Adam dot com.
Speaker 3: You can read the polygraphic exam there. But that's what
Speaker 3: these cops do. They don't want witnesses, Like I said,
Speaker 3: they go into full cover up mode. And like Milwaukee's
Speaker 3: doing the same thing. They cover up. You know, Dahma's
Speaker 3: accredited for seventeen murders in Milwaukee. Okay, Well, there's one
Speaker 3: murder that Dahmer I believe Dahma committed that Dahmer was
Speaker 3: not credited for, and that's Dean Vaughan who lived in
Speaker 3: apartment three h eight, that's one floor above Dama. Dahma
Speaker 3: lived in two thirteen on the second floor. Okay, Now
Speaker 3: this murder occurred four months before Jeffrey Dahmer was captured. Okay,
Speaker 3: when Edwards finally escaped Tracy Edwards, he finally escaped Dhma's apartment.
Speaker 3: And it was at that time when the police messed
Speaker 3: up how bad. Realized how bad they've been messing up,
Speaker 3: because a couple of months before that there was one
Speaker 3: kid that escaped. Dahmer had this thirteen year old Laotian boy,
Speaker 3: Contracts and SASM phone and he was trying to make
Speaker 3: a zombie. That was one of his experiments. He was
Speaker 3: drilling holes in some of his victims' heads while they
Speaker 3: were still alive and injecting with a turkey basing needle.
Speaker 3: Warded down muradic acid into the brain. Well, he thought
Speaker 3: his experiment was working with Contract, so he left him
Speaker 3: home while he went out drinking. In the meantime, Contract
Speaker 3: was naked, escaped from the apartment. He was wandering around
Speaker 3: aimlessly out in the street when he's two young seventeen
Speaker 3: and eighteen year old black girls saw him and called
Speaker 3: nine one one. The fire department shows up and they're
Speaker 3: trying to give the young boy aid and then the
Speaker 3: police department shows up and the police chased the fire
Speaker 3: department away. They told them to take off, and then
Speaker 3: they told the two girls that, you know, well, at
Speaker 3: first they were talking to the two girls, then here
Speaker 3: comes Jeffrey Dahmer and Dharma sees what's going on here.
Speaker 3: So he goes up to the two police officers and says, hey,
Speaker 3: that's my friend and my Mike. He told the police
Speaker 3: officers that's my nineteen year old lover, and they said, well,
Speaker 3: what's his name? He goes, uh, John, and then the
Speaker 3: girls are telling him nineteen. He's not nineteen. Look at him.
Speaker 3: He's just a young little boy because you know, he's Relatians,
Speaker 3: so you know, uh, they're not the largest people in
Speaker 3: the world. So the boy was, you know, who looked
Speaker 3: younger than his real age. And the police gave him
Speaker 3: back to Jeffrey Dahmer, and Jeffrey Drhmat immediately executed him,
Speaker 3: cut his head off and boiled it and kept the
Speaker 3: head as a trophy. Because when the girls were protesting,
Speaker 3: the police told them to take off or they're gonna
Speaker 3: take them downtown, which means arrest them. So they forced
Speaker 3: the girls to take off, and the girls were insisting, insisting,
Speaker 3: and then was arrested them. So finally when Dahma was captured,
Speaker 3: they realized what happened, and they were worried because all
Speaker 3: the black community as well as the gay community were
Speaker 3: out in huge numbers, I mean hundreds of people in
Speaker 3: the streets and they were afraid they were gonna be riots.
Speaker 3: So they went into full cover up mode. They didn't
Speaker 3: want anybody to know how many times they were in
Speaker 3: the Oxford Building all because of Jeffrey Dahmer because of
Speaker 3: stink complaints, complaints and opened a homicide investigation of Dean
Speaker 3: Vaughan that was an ongoing for four months, when in fact,
Speaker 3: when that Dean Vaughn was first found a drug uh
Speaker 3: sodomized and murdered on his bed with his pants pulled
Speaker 3: down to his ankles. Okay, they interviewed everybody in all
Speaker 3: forty nine units of the Oxford Building, knowing it had
Speaker 3: to be an inside job because that building has a
Speaker 3: locked door, so you need a key to get in,
Speaker 3: and if you're a visitor, you have to use the
Speaker 3: intercom system to be buzzed in, so they figured it
Speaker 3: had to be somebody, so they interviewed everybody, including Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 3: but Drma claimed he didn't know Dean Vaughan, you know,
Speaker 3: And so after the after the case was closed, I
Speaker 3: called some of the residents that lived in that building
Speaker 3: and they told me that, of course Dormer knew who
Speaker 3: Dean Vaughan was. They seen Dahmer going into his apartment,
Speaker 3: and they seen Dean Vone going into Dormer's apartment periodically,
Speaker 3: so of course they knew each other. But the police
Speaker 3: are covering up that is not one of his murders,
Speaker 3: and they never really grilled Dharma on it after his capture.
Speaker 3: Calling to the most Milwaukee police files, when they interviewed
Speaker 3: Dahma about it, Dama simply said he didn't know the guy,
Speaker 3: and they let it go at that. That's all they did. So,
Speaker 3: you know, they never really pressed Dahma on it, and
Speaker 3: they never tried. There's nothing anywhere that I could find
Speaker 3: where they tried to do any DNA matching to Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 3: because you know, you can't commit a murder like that
Speaker 3: without leaving some kind of forensic evidence behind right, but
Speaker 3: there's nothing to show they did anything to try and
Speaker 3: see who really murdered Dean won. In fact, if you
Speaker 3: go to the Milwaukee Police cold case files even today
Speaker 3: to check, Dean Mourne is listed in their cold case
Speaker 3: files saying that if anybody has any information, please call
Speaker 3: the Milwaukee Police Department. That's all they have just put
Speaker 3: in the cold case files, followed away and put a
Speaker 3: little statement there asking for help when they don't even
Speaker 3: try to solve the case. Like I say, you know
Speaker 3: a lot of these police departments, they're very good, but
Speaker 3: until they mess up, and then there's an old saying
Speaker 3: when you mess up, never fess up, And that's what
Speaker 3: they do. Milwaukee does that, Miami does that. Miami does
Speaker 3: not want to make the connection to Adam Walsh. But
Speaker 3: I can tell you firsthand that Jeffrey Dahmer was there.
Speaker 3: You know, they said there's no coincidence in murder. So
Speaker 3: how is it possible for me before Adam's even abducted,
Speaker 3: to have this encounter with somebody follow him all the
Speaker 3: way to the Toy department. Because I get this feeling
Speaker 3: about this guy. He had this persona that he knew
Speaker 3: he was dangerous. But my thinking at the time never
Speaker 3: in my mind in nineteen eighty one that I think
Speaker 3: a six year old kid was in danger. Never, I
Speaker 3: mean what a twenty year old Dahma was twenty at
Speaker 3: the time. In nineteen eighty one, I was, I was
Speaker 3: thirty four, So I was thinking, Dormody's gonna go up
Speaker 3: to somebody my age or you know, at least an adult.
Speaker 3: There would be woods exchange, the chovy match, maybe a fight,
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking maybe somebody might need help, at least
Speaker 3: the witness at the very least. So that's the only
Speaker 3: reason I was following him. But when he didn't come
Speaker 3: out of the toy department, I'm thinking, oh, he must
Speaker 3: be playing the video games. And I just turned around
Speaker 3: and left and went home, because that is at the
Speaker 3: end of the morning. I didn't My thinking was he's
Speaker 3: gonna come back my way. I didn't want another encounter
Speaker 3: with him, so I left this. Like I said, it
Speaker 3: was that very evening I heard about it on the news.
Speaker 3: I knew. I always knew it had to be that guy,
Speaker 3: just know who he was until nineteen ninety one when
Speaker 3: I saw as much shot and I knew this was
Speaker 3: the guy. So now I had a name to put
Speaker 3: to that face. So how can you say it was
Speaker 3: anybody else? Even if you don't think it was Dormer
Speaker 3: or whoever you think it was, you have to believe
Speaker 3: that person I encountered has to be a suspect. The
Speaker 3: Smiths an encounter like that.
Speaker 4: You showed every one of these witnesses, and you went
Speaker 4: to great efforts and found all these witnesses to put
Speaker 4: that incredible what you call a witness timeline together that
Speaker 4: you put in your book along with all the incredible
Speaker 4: got to mention this all the incredible source documentation that
Speaker 4: you provide in this book and the photos incredible, But
Speaker 4: you talk about that you showed all of these people
Speaker 4: the composite, which I can say really does look like
Speaker 4: him when you take it into consideration, how accurate it is,
Speaker 4: and and that we have to remind people that that
Speaker 4: composite was used at the other mall as well. So
Speaker 4: there's two groups of people seeing the same person, validating
Speaker 4: what you said when you saw it as well, and
Speaker 4: you showed those people which you said was really convincing.
Speaker 4: Was the nineteen eighty one mug shot right where Dahmer
Speaker 4: looked a little bit different than what some people might.
Speaker 3: Think, right, because, like I say, that was the closest
Speaker 3: to the Adam Walsh abduction was only like two months after, right,
Speaker 3: you know, from July twenty seventh was the abduction and
Speaker 3: then October seventh was that mugshot taken. So yeah, all
Speaker 3: the witnesses recognize him. In fact, Timothy Pottenberg who initiated
Speaker 3: the bolo on the blue van because Timothy went there
Speaker 3: with his mother and his grandmother. They parked in the
Speaker 3: same area where where very Walsh parked by the north entrance,
Speaker 3: and they went into the mall and ended up all
Speaker 3: the way in the food court having lunch. Well, Maryland,
Speaker 3: Timothy's mother, she didn't feel like walking all the way
Speaker 3: back to get the retrieve the blue van, so she
Speaker 3: asked her mother, Timothy's grandmother, Carolyn Hudson, to and Timothy
Speaker 3: they went to get the blue van and then we're
Speaker 3: gonna drive it around to the east side food court
Speaker 3: so she could didn't have to walk so for But
Speaker 3: on the way back to get the blue van, Timothy
Speaker 3: stopped in the toy department because it was right there
Speaker 3: by the north entrance, in the corner of them and
Speaker 3: while he was in the toy department, he saw this
Speaker 3: man standing there pretending like he was looking at something
Speaker 3: like a toy in his hand, and he just looked
Speaker 3: so disheveled and out of place. And they eventually left
Speaker 3: and went out the north door, and when they stepped
Speaker 3: out the north door, the guy that oh before they
Speaker 3: stepped out the north door, the guy ran out of
Speaker 3: the store, and a couple minutes later they went out,
Speaker 3: but by that time, Dharma had retrieved the blue van,
Speaker 3: and when they stepped off the curb, he almost hit them,
Speaker 3: he almost ran over them. So Timothy ran around to
Speaker 3: the west side to see what the heck this guy's
Speaker 3: in such a rush for. And he saw the guy
Speaker 3: stop at the west side, jump out of the vehicle,
Speaker 3: run inside, and come back out with this kid and
Speaker 3: toss him into the blue van. And he told his grandmother,
Speaker 3: but you know, they just didn't think that much of
Speaker 3: it and left, and like days later, when they heard
Speaker 3: about the abduction, they called the Hollywood Police Department. It
Speaker 3: was Timothy that made one of the composites that are
Speaker 3: the spinning image of Jeffrey Dahmer, as well as the
Speaker 3: blue Van bowl that was first started from the Hollywood Mall,
Speaker 3: but they ended up dismissing him as well. Years later,
Speaker 3: after I got the case files in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 3: when they closed the case, I started tracking witnesses down
Speaker 3: and one of them was Timothy Pottenburg, who lives in
Speaker 3: Central Florida. Now, so I went up. Because a lot
Speaker 3: of these witnesses, I was able to track down their addresses,
Speaker 3: but not phone numbers because a lot of people don't
Speaker 3: have landline phones anymore and cell phones are much more
Speaker 3: difficult to track down. So I always do the next
Speaker 3: best thing. I just go to their house and knock
Speaker 3: on the door. And that's what I did. I went
Speaker 3: to his house in Central Florida and knocked on the door.
Speaker 3: He was sleep and his wife was up. I explained
Speaker 3: to his wife why I wanted to speak to Timothy,
Speaker 3: and she got roustled him out of bed real quick.
Speaker 3: He came out and we started talking and Timothy told
Speaker 3: me that the case is already closed now. So Timothy
Speaker 3: told me he never did believe that artist Toool's story
Speaker 3: because artist tool didn't match the guy. He knew it
Speaker 3: had to be that guy he made the compositive. But
Speaker 3: he remembers that composite like was yesterday. I showed him
Speaker 3: photos of Tool and he scoffed at the notion that
Speaker 3: it could have been Tool. And I showed him mug
Speaker 3: shots and photos of Dominant. He swears they matched his composite.
Speaker 3: And that's the guy he was trying to describe. He
Speaker 3: swears it was Jeffrey Dahmer. The police don't want to
Speaker 3: hear him. They've never talked to him again. They refused
Speaker 3: to talk to him or interview him. And that goes
Speaker 3: on and on and on. Vernon Jones was another one.
Speaker 3: Vernon Jones. Listen to what. Vernon Jones was one of
Speaker 3: the black boys that was in the toy department. Vernon
Speaker 3: Jones was staying with his grandfather who was in the
Speaker 3: lawn care business in how he lived in Holendale and
Speaker 3: he used to like to buy craftsman tools. So he
Speaker 3: would go to the Hollywood Mall to look at tools,
Speaker 3: and one day he had Vernon with him. He was
Speaker 3: in a tool department that at nine years old, Vernon
Speaker 3: wasn't interested in tools. He was more interested in playing
Speaker 3: the new video games that were out, the aty video games.
Speaker 3: So while his grandfather was shopping for tools, Vernon went
Speaker 3: over to the toy department and he was playing this
Speaker 3: video game with Adam, who was in a Tory baseball game,
Speaker 3: and there was this disheveled man standing about fifteen feet
Speaker 3: away hissing at Vernon. He was saying, hey, you to
Speaker 3: me here like that. Vernon kept trying to ignore him,
Speaker 3: but then Vernon looked up at him and all of
Speaker 3: a sudden he heard this big crack because he wasn't
Speaker 3: able to concentrate on the game and Adam had gotten
Speaker 3: a Grand Slam home run and beating him. Vernon said
Speaker 3: he was so upset by losing to the younger boy
Speaker 3: because he was nine Adam was six, that he just
Speaker 3: went around the other side and started playing Donkey Kong
Speaker 3: and left Adam there. And then a few minutes later
Speaker 3: he saw that guy walking with this boy passed his ale.
Speaker 3: So you can put the timeline together, you know, as
Speaker 3: he was walking mea saw him standing holding at him
Speaker 3: by the hand and then leaving him with him. Vernon
Speaker 3: saw him passing his aisle. Philip lor then sees him
Speaker 3: going out the exit. Bill Bowen sees him in the
Speaker 3: parking lot, and there's many other witnesses that are in
Speaker 3: between all of those, you had the full timeline of
Speaker 3: all the witnesses, and one that wasn't even there is
Speaker 3: their favorite scapegoat, the security guard. They pinned this on her,
Speaker 3: saying that she kicked Adam out of the store. How
Speaker 3: does she kick Adam out of the store when all
Speaker 3: these witnesses see Adam being dragged out and walked out.
Speaker 3: You know, he was walked out until he got close
Speaker 3: to the threshold, and then Adam was protesting as much
Speaker 3: as a six year oken protest. So Dahma picked him
Speaker 3: up and just carried him out at that point. And
Speaker 3: then once he got outside, Adam was squirming so much
Speaker 3: he ended up just holding him up by that one
Speaker 3: arm in the air which Bill Bowen saw. So how
Speaker 3: is that that their their suspect out of his tool
Speaker 3: picked that saw Adam out in the parking lot and
Speaker 3: gave him candy and talked him into getting his car.
Speaker 3: That doesn't doesn't even close to what the real witnesses
Speaker 3: are saying. The witnesses that were there. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: it's just a totally fabricated story that was made up
Speaker 3: by Detective Joe Matthews. Yes, based on one witness and
Speaker 3: this witness who the police even had to threatn because
Speaker 3: he couldn't he couldn't pass any polygraph tests. They polygraphed
Speaker 3: him three times. He failed all three times. They sent
Speaker 3: him to talk to as psychiatrists to see if that
Speaker 3: would help, and and the psychiatrist that he was incapable
Speaker 3: of working with the guy, you know, because he's the
Speaker 3: one that saw that episode of the White Cadillact that
Speaker 3: they did on that last episode of America's Most Wanted
Speaker 3: of that John Most did a show of his son
Speaker 3: and they did a reenactment with the White Joe's re enactment.
Speaker 3: And yeah, so he called and he's when that initiated
Speaker 3: that them to do that White Cadillact thing, because he
Speaker 3: claimed he was there and saw this guy talking to
Speaker 3: at him and getting a white Cadillac. But the problem
Speaker 3: with that is in his statements, he was there at
Speaker 3: ten o'clock in the morning, and then he went back
Speaker 3: because he went there to buy some camping gear because
Speaker 3: they went out into the Everglades to go camping. And
Speaker 3: then at three o'clock in the afternoon he went back
Speaker 3: again to pick up a few more things that he
Speaker 3: forgot to pick up earlier. So in Joe matthews book,
Speaker 3: he writes that he was there at three o'clock and
Speaker 3: then he was there a couple hours hours earlier. Well, no,
Speaker 3: he was there five hours earlier. But Joe Matthews is
Speaker 3: trying to make make it as close to twelve as
Speaker 3: he can, to make it look like William Mitzler was
Speaker 3: there when Adam was abducted. But he wasn't even there
Speaker 3: when Adam was abducted, and that security guard wasn't there
Speaker 3: because according to Revey's Walsh's own statement, and in tears
Speaker 3: of rage, she this is what Revey has to say.
Speaker 3: She left Adam in the toy department and went over
Speaker 3: to the lamp department. When she went back to retrieve Adam,
Speaker 3: he was gone, but the other boys were still there.
Speaker 3: So she was trying to ask all the other boys
Speaker 3: if they saw her son, but they were too busy
Speaker 3: playing the games to answer her. But finally one Latin
Speaker 3: boy answered by pointing over to the west exit. Revey says,
Speaker 3: the you know, the west exit is ridiculous. She came
Speaker 3: in the north entrance. Why would I Adam go out
Speaker 3: the west exit, which is where all the other witnesses
Speaker 3: say they saw Adam being dragged out, so the kid
Speaker 3: was pointing in the right direction, but Revey thought the
Speaker 3: kid was either trying to be polite to an adult
Speaker 3: or he was Spanish and didn't understand what she was saying,
Speaker 3: so she couldn't find Adam. She ran out into the
Speaker 3: mall and ran up and down the mall a couple
Speaker 3: of times looking for Adam, and then went back to
Speaker 3: the toy department. When she went back, all the kids
Speaker 3: were gone, which means what it means Adam was kicked
Speaker 3: out before all the other kids were, and not kicked out.
Speaker 3: Miss went missing before the security guard went there and
Speaker 3: kicked all the kids out of the toy department. She
Speaker 3: kicked them out if Adam was already gone while Reve
Speaker 3: was out in the hallway, which means Adam was missing
Speaker 3: for twenty minutes. Because I got the full timeline, Adam
Speaker 3: was missing for twenty minutes before the security god even
Speaker 3: went it. In fact, some of the commotion that they
Speaker 3: say that there was could have been Adam protesting. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Adam was screaming. He was the one that was screaming,
Speaker 3: and somebody called security.
Speaker 4: Willis, I want to thank you, Willis. I want to
Speaker 4: thank you very much for coming on and talking about
Speaker 4: Frustrated Witness. We could go on for quite a while
Speaker 4: longer for those that might want to and feel motivated
Speaker 4: to buy this book, Frustrated Witness The Complete Story of
Speaker 4: the Adam Walsh Case and police Misconduct. This is published
Speaker 4: on book Baby, and I want to commend you on
Speaker 4: a very very very impressive package with all the source
Speaker 4: documentation and photos and just a fantastic looking like collectible book.
Speaker 4: Tell us how people can get your book, and tell
Speaker 4: us one more time about the websites that you can
Speaker 4: that they could go and visit.
Speaker 3: Okay, again, I have two websites, Justice for Adam. Well
Speaker 3: the records could be found because in my book I
Speaker 3: constantly reference where the information comes from in the records,
Speaker 3: so you know, uh, you can uh double check yourself
Speaker 3: the records by going to the website. Also my other
Speaker 3: uh website where I have numerous videos, uh tra book trailers,
Speaker 3: uh other shows I've done radio shows, uh interviews at
Speaker 3: Frustrated Witness dot com. Also you can link to my
Speaker 3: Facebook page from there, as well as other sites where
Speaker 3: you can buy the book. The problem is the site
Speaker 3: is not updated yet, so the book that's listed on
Speaker 3: my website when you click on it is the first
Speaker 3: edition that came out in two thousand and fifteen. But
Speaker 3: you can go to Amazon and just type in Frustrated Witness.
Speaker 3: You'll get the new copies of the second edition. There's
Speaker 3: two different books. Whe's a paperback and when's a hardcover.
Speaker 3: Now the cover on the on the hardcover book the
Speaker 3: crime scene tape. I changed the original book twenty fifteen
Speaker 3: says crime scene. You stand in the crime scene tape, crime scene,
Speaker 3: do not cross. But one of my attorneys told me,
Speaker 3: every time she looks at that cover, because that's the
Speaker 3: room where Adam was murdered, and with the blood spatter
Speaker 3: on the back wall, every time she looks at it,
Speaker 3: she thinks that it should say crime scene, do not investigate.
Speaker 3: So I changed the crime scene tape. So and it's
Speaker 3: also says second edition. Now the paperback copy, I did
Speaker 3: a completely different book. On the paperback copy, I have
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Darmer's mugshot on the front cover. So either one
Speaker 3: of those you can buy the hardcover. The paperbacks are a
Speaker 3: little cheap, the paperbacks going for about thirty two dollars.
Speaker 3: The hardcover is about thirty eight dollars, or if you want,
Speaker 3: you can go to the Apple Bookstore and I have
Speaker 3: the book listed there for only nine dollars in change
Speaker 3: at the Apple Bookstore, so you can go there and
Speaker 3: download it if you have it an Apple product.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much, Willis. It's been an absolute pleasure,
Speaker 4: frustrated witness the complete story of the Adam Walsh case
Speaker 4: and police misconduct. Thank you very much, Willis. You have
Speaker 4: a great evening.
Speaker 3: Good night, and thank you for the platform. Appreciate it.
Speaker 4: You're welcome.
Speaker 3: Good Night,