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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host journalist and author.
Speaker 5: Dan Zupanski, Good evening. Nothing like it before, nothing like
Speaker 5: it since. Murder, Inc. Was the most un you, visual, brutal,
Speaker 5: and extensive collection of characters the American underworld had ever produced.
Speaker 5: Called primarily from Brookland's Brownsville and Ocean Hill sections, these
Speaker 5: official on call killers of New York's larger crime syndicate
Speaker 5: were a unified force of Jewish and Italian gangsters. They
Speaker 5: treated murder as an art form for an entire decade.
Speaker 5: They were called mobsters, thugs, hoods, and racketeers, but at
Speaker 5: the very core they were assassins. When gangland kingpins such
Speaker 5: as Lewis Lepki Buchalter, Charles Lucky Luciano, and Benjamin Bugsy
Speaker 5: Siegeld needed a contract fulfilled, the combination boys would eagerly
Speaker 5: take the task. The enforcement duties, which included methods ranging
Speaker 5: from gunfire to fire axes, incineration to ice picks. These
Speaker 5: are the mysteries, the sordid stories, the character profiles, alluring
Speaker 5: and lesser known tales of the Mob's most deadly hit Squad.
Speaker 5: Meet the killers, the victims, the bosses, the lovers, the deceivers,
Speaker 5: and the gangsters that made up a nationally reaching ensemble
Speaker 5: cast rivaling anything organized crime or law enforcement had ever
Speaker 5: imagined to that point in time. Discover the nuances, the attitudes,
Speaker 5: the motivations, the ambitions, and, thanks to little honor among thieves,
Speaker 5: the scathing revelations that lead to an inevitable downfall. The
Speaker 5: book that we're featuring this evening is Murder inc. Mysteries
Speaker 5: of the Mob's most Deadly Hit Squad, with my special guest,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Christian Cippolini. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 5: and thank you for a greeting this interview. Christian Cippolini, Dan,
Speaker 5: thank you for having me again.
Speaker 6: Always a pleasure.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, and it's always a pleasure. And
Speaker 5: we'll get right into this most extraordinary tale. For every
Speaker 5: body that thinks they know about the Mob, this is
Speaker 5: one more layer of understanding, I believe incredible. Now you
Speaker 5: start off by explaining that that the mob was not designed,
Speaker 5: not organized, not operated for the purpose of killing. What
Speaker 5: was the purpose of you know, what was the purpose
Speaker 5: of the mob, And before we get into murdering itself.
Speaker 6: But basic economics, to make money. The mob existed for
Speaker 6: achieving the American's dream, just in a different way than
Speaker 6: legitimate society did. It wasn't about killing or being brutal
Speaker 6: tough guys. That comes with it, you know, because it's
Speaker 6: such an illegitimate thing that we're doing. But no, it
Speaker 6: was about making money. It was that simple.
Speaker 5: Now you say that, like any any organization, even legitimate corporations,
Speaker 5: they operated the same way. They would have accounts payable,
Speaker 5: they'd have public relations that have logistics, and then they
Speaker 5: would have an enforcement arm. So we always know that
Speaker 5: there's somebody is going to do the dirtiest of dirty work.
Speaker 5: Tell us about that. How did how did that come
Speaker 5: to be? And how did they pick people for enforcement?
Speaker 5: How did that works?
Speaker 6: It's such a mind boggling But I don't know, simplistic
Speaker 6: in a way dynamic to the whole thing. They needed
Speaker 6: a self policing unit. I suppose what happened. The short
Speaker 6: version is the guys who were becoming big time, like
Speaker 6: Luciano Lanski, Boucalper, all those guys. But some of them
Speaker 6: had been watching these youngerhoods and what they had achieved
Speaker 6: on their own, and it sort of evolved into the
Speaker 6: situation where they figured these guys would be good at
Speaker 6: handling the really nasty stuff, and they brought them in.
Speaker 6: These guys were these younger guys were looking to make
Speaker 6: a name for themselves and they were doing that in
Speaker 6: the established guys saw it happen. They saw what was happening,
Speaker 6: So that's sort of why they selected them.
Speaker 5: They were they weren't. None of these people really shy
Speaker 5: from murdering anyone in sort of the course of doing business.
Speaker 5: But what were the things that really brought to attention
Speaker 5: these guys that these this enforcement arm. What were the
Speaker 5: kind of infractions that were just not going to be
Speaker 5: you know, not going to be brushed aside. What would
Speaker 5: bring the enforcement arm, this team of guys to your door.
Speaker 5: What kind of rules were you not to ever break?
Speaker 6: Well, obviously if you were suspected of speaking to law enforcement,
Speaker 6: if you stole from the mob, if you wanted to
Speaker 6: exit the mob. These are just a couple of the
Speaker 6: reasons in order to get a death sentence. And of
Speaker 6: course we're talking about roughly nineteen thirty through nineteen forty
Speaker 6: is when these guys were doing it. But the biggest
Speaker 6: things were obviously stealing from your own people, skimming, you know,
Speaker 6: whatever you could get killed for, you know, skimming a
Speaker 6: couple of dollars if one of the bosses wanted it done.
Speaker 6: But the worst in fraction, the one where you were
Speaker 6: probably going to be made an example of, is if
Speaker 6: you were thought to be a stole pigeon, you want
Speaker 6: to be a rat, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 6: That that usually got the worst punishment.
Speaker 5: Now, when you talk about what we alluded to it,
Speaker 5: or we mentioned it in the opening about incineration and
Speaker 5: ice picks, there are many ways to kill someone. There's
Speaker 5: been in many ways of sending a message. What were
Speaker 5: these guys sometimes known for? What was there? What were
Speaker 5: they characterize their behavior? We'll say, of these guys that
Speaker 5: would kill, especially when it was an informant.
Speaker 6: Uh, the word psychopathic definitely comes to mind with a
Speaker 6: few of them. And though I'm not a psychiatrist or
Speaker 6: a psychologist, when you see these guys go from young
Speaker 6: men and shooting someone to evolving to the point where
Speaker 6: they would use an ice pick for example. And one
Speaker 6: of the best examples to paint this picture is there
Speaker 6: was a reporter who wrote an article about one of
Speaker 6: their murders and how he characterized it. What if it
Speaker 6: takes three plunges of an ice pick to kill you,
Speaker 6: these guys make sure they tack on fifty more plunges
Speaker 6: of that ice pick for good measure, and then go
Speaker 6: sit and have a lobster dinner. It's it was brutal.
Speaker 6: They made this. They made a point of becoming more
Speaker 6: and more brutal as the years went on.
Speaker 5: What's interesting, too, is that where they basically got some
Speaker 5: of these guys from, like we talked about in the opening,
Speaker 5: was from Brooklyn. They'll tell us why in particular Brooklyn,
Speaker 5: and then tell us begin to introduce some of the
Speaker 5: characters that were the main players in organized crime at
Speaker 5: that time. Like you said, in this era of this
Speaker 5: decade of horrific murder and the you know, the reign
Speaker 5: of murder Inc. In particular, named some of the main
Speaker 5: players in this cast.
Speaker 6: Well, these guys, the ones that were the core of
Speaker 6: what would later be called Murder Inc. Were led by
Speaker 6: Abe Kid twist Rellis. They were a handful of Jewish
Speaker 6: guys and Italian guys from Brooklyn, and it could have
Speaker 6: been any any part of New York, and there were
Speaker 6: guys from the Bronx and Upper areas, but it just
Speaker 6: so happened that these guys all sort of joined up
Speaker 6: their gangs as young men and took out some up
Speaker 6: and coming other gangsters. The really big up and coming
Speaker 6: gangsters saw this happening in Brooklyn and that's how they
Speaker 6: became part of it. Like I said, it could have
Speaker 6: been anywhere. It just so happened that these guys were
Speaker 6: particularly well known within Brooklyn and outside of Brooklyn as
Speaker 6: being constantly arrested and let go for any crime under
Speaker 6: the sun. They were a gang who liked to be
Speaker 6: known for what they did, and that caught the attention
Speaker 6: of guys like Luciano, who was basically a Manhattan gangster,
Speaker 6: and Buchalter, who was a racketeer in the Brooklyn area
Speaker 6: and beyond. These guys saw this and that's why they
Speaker 6: sort of chose them. But other guys that were Harry
Speaker 6: Happy may Own, Harry Pittsburgh, Phil Strauss, Martin Bugsy Goldstein,
Speaker 6: Frank Dasser, abendando. These were the main guys of the group,
Speaker 6: but they had hired guns that would do maybe one
Speaker 6: or two jobs that were from other areas, even other
Speaker 6: parts of the country. This became national by the mid
Speaker 6: nineteen thirties. These guys were going all over the country
Speaker 6: and had contacts in various parts of the country.
Speaker 5: Lucky Luciano tell us about the rise of Luckily Luciano
Speaker 5: because there was a couple of crime bosses that were
Speaker 5: obstacles and so you can tell us about this sort
Speaker 5: of this conspiracy here basically for how he came to
Speaker 5: power with Masuria and Marenganzo Marizano. So tell us about
Speaker 5: the Ria Arenzano and Lucky Luciano and this play for power.
Speaker 6: Well, I sort of did this book to follow up
Speaker 6: my last one, which was on Luciano, and I kind
Speaker 6: of knew this would be a fitting following because what
Speaker 6: was happening in nineteen thirty nineteen thirty one, this major
Speaker 6: mafia boss war, and Lucky Luciano and his buddies, both
Speaker 6: Italian and Jewish, decided we need to take out both
Speaker 6: these guys. And you know, obviously I'm oversimplifying this, but
Speaker 6: here were these young Turks basically saying we got to
Speaker 6: get rid of the old school. They knock off both
Speaker 6: guys by a fall of nineteen thirty one. And at
Speaker 6: the same time it was a parallel thing. You had
Speaker 6: these young guys from Brooklyn who were taking over rackets
Speaker 6: from other young racketeers. It was like two parallel worlds,
Speaker 6: you know, on different scales of size. Luciano, Lanski, Costello, Bluclter,
Speaker 6: all these guys basically by the end of nineteen thirty
Speaker 6: one had changed the face of organized crime. Some people
Speaker 6: will argue how much they did or how I'll stand
Speaker 6: by this. They changed. It was a whole new era
Speaker 6: by nineteen thirty one. And at the same time, these
Speaker 6: young guys they knew what was going on with all
Speaker 6: that too, and they were doing their own little thing,
Speaker 6: and sooner or later that gap is bridged, and that's
Speaker 6: how the murdering people hooked up with bosses. Well, by
Speaker 6: that time, Luciano was a boss, Lanski was a boss.
Speaker 6: If you want to call you know, they were all bosses.
Speaker 5: The prosecution, the authorities, the government, they noticed who these
Speaker 5: people were. Despite when we talk about organized crime in
Speaker 5: and denial in the sixties, in the fifties, when forties
Speaker 5: that there was such a thing as the mafioso. Authorities
Speaker 5: knew what was going on here, were determined to try
Speaker 5: to take these people to court. Tell us about the
Speaker 5: state of prosecution at that time in the thirties and
Speaker 5: some of the attempts, the first attempt to try to
Speaker 5: take these guys to court and arrest them and have
Speaker 5: them imprisoned.
Speaker 6: But with the guys that were in murder incorporated one
Speaker 6: of the biggest problems that society was dealing with. These
Speaker 6: guys had money and were developing a lot of backing,
Speaker 6: and had decent lawyers, and they could march in for
Speaker 6: any infraction and months later be dismissed because witnesses wouldn't
Speaker 6: come forward or it just wasn't enough evidence. And remember,
Speaker 6: of course, we're talking about a time before there was
Speaker 6: any CSI or DNA, So basically, these guys were getting
Speaker 6: off scott free, and prosecutors were going after the big fish.
Speaker 6: For the most part, they were going after the culters
Speaker 6: and Lucciano's, that's who they were. They did not know
Speaker 6: for a decade that those guys had all these underlinked
Speaker 6: carrying out hundreds of deaths that were all connected to
Speaker 6: the same group. That's where there was this this disconnect.
Speaker 6: And plus you don't have like today databases. You know
Speaker 6: you had Brooklyn. There would be people here that know
Speaker 6: about this, but they don't know about it in Manhattan
Speaker 6: or Queens necessarily until it comes out in the newspapers
Speaker 6: of what happened. So it was very difficult for the
Speaker 6: judicial system, for law enforcement to put this all together
Speaker 6: until nineteen forty.
Speaker 5: They're not really known for leaving too much forensic evidence,
Speaker 5: namely just you know, they they're well versed in knowing
Speaker 5: how to dispose the bodies for the most part.
Speaker 6: You would think you would think it's funny you bring
Speaker 6: that up, because they here's something that happens when you're
Speaker 6: too much of a narcissist or two cocky, it's going
Speaker 6: to come back to bite you. These guys got away
Speaker 6: with a lot, and no, there wasn't a lot of evidence.
Speaker 6: Bodies were buried in lime pits and dumped in lakes,
Speaker 6: but some of them reappeared. And these guys were even
Speaker 6: a time stunned that they weren't i don't know, as
Speaker 6: medically versed or scientifically as versed as they thought they were,
Speaker 6: as to what happens to a decomposing body. So again
Speaker 6: that actually that's more of when your head gets too big,
Speaker 6: you make mistakes, and they did. It's just I think, Dan,
Speaker 6: they were very, very lucky for a long time in
Speaker 6: that they had such a support network to protect them.
Speaker 5: Now you were talking, well, they weren't as well versed
Speaker 5: as they might have thought. You give some prime examples.
Speaker 5: Again a little bit gory, but hey, that's program. The
Speaker 5: audience can handle it. You cite an example of them
Speaker 5: underestimating their ability to dispose of a body. Just give
Speaker 5: us that one example of the body they threw in
Speaker 5: the water.
Speaker 6: Well, so they ice picked a fellow gangster. And I'm
Speaker 6: gonna throw this out there too. I try to point
Speaker 6: out the book though this doesn't make it right, and
Speaker 6: society did pay for this. I mean, there's always collateral damage.
Speaker 6: But really a lot of their victims were bad guys too.
Speaker 6: I just want to point that out. These guys were
Speaker 6: often killers too. And one example is Walter Sage. He
Speaker 6: was one of their friends, fellow gangster, did bad stuff.
Speaker 6: They thought he was skimming. The order came down. Take
Speaker 6: this guy out, They take him for a ride, ice
Speaker 6: pick him I think fifty. Sometimes they tied his body
Speaker 6: with pieces of metal, throw them in the lake, and
Speaker 6: a few days later, or actually it was two weeks later,
Speaker 6: people are a tourists are out having fun at the
Speaker 6: lake and up pops this bloated body in the middle
Speaker 6: of the lake. It horrified everybody, and the guys didn't
Speaker 6: understand what happens with a tiny hole that an ice
Speaker 6: pick does to a body. It actually ends up sealing
Speaker 6: itself up and blows up with the gases, and it
Speaker 6: lifted parts of a car engine when that body came
Speaker 6: to the surface. That's how they did not understand how
Speaker 6: that happened. So it just goes to show they were
Speaker 6: a little too big for their bridges. To use really
Speaker 6: old school term.
Speaker 5: What we're seeing in this almost one hundred years ago
Speaker 5: in nineteen thirties, and anybody it's a big fan like
Speaker 5: myself and probably a big part of the audience knows
Speaker 5: this from watching mob stories. Is that is that how
Speaker 5: do these guys really get to be able to do
Speaker 5: the kind of hits that they need to get. What
Speaker 5: I'm saying is that they really these guys are a
Speaker 5: suspicious lot. Like you say, these guys are fellow killers
Speaker 5: and men around these guys who are killers, and so
Speaker 5: they're cautious. They know the drill, they know what really
Speaker 5: goes on, and yet they're still hit. How does that happen?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 6: That's maybe the million dollar question, Dan. I think a
Speaker 6: lot of these guys were very overconfident period, and even
Speaker 6: though you would think you're naturally paranoid and cautious. In
Speaker 6: my research and again none of us were there, we
Speaker 6: don't know, and just based off in general psychology, it
Speaker 6: seems to me they didn't think anything would happen to them.
Speaker 6: It's like you walking down the street and just thinking
Speaker 6: nothing's gonna happen to you. It's gonna happen that guy
Speaker 6: across the street, even when you were part of it.
Speaker 6: So what happens on top of that? And it's like
Speaker 6: what we saw in all the mob movies. Your buddies
Speaker 6: are the ones that are going to kill you, and
Speaker 6: they're friendly, and of course that fools you too. You
Speaker 6: feel that comfort. So that's what they would do. Murder
Speaker 6: inc didn't just kill strangers, and they did kill a
Speaker 6: lot that you know, they didn't personally know, but they
Speaker 6: also killed a ton of their own over the years
Speaker 6: because there's that comfort level. Like the example Walter Stage,
Speaker 6: he had no idea. He thought he was going for
Speaker 6: a ride like he always does with the same guys.
Speaker 6: It's just he had a contract on his head that day.
Speaker 5: Yes, Now you talk about the Abe Reelis gang kid twist,
Speaker 5: and you also talk about something called the Sullivan it's
Speaker 5: a Sullivan law, and tell us about the Sullivan Sullivan
Speaker 5: law and a Relea skaning and again prosecution trying to
Speaker 5: prosecute these guys effectively and put them in prison.
Speaker 6: Okay, the short version of this. In early thirties, a
Speaker 6: law was in stated they were tiggyback laws to disorderly conduct.
Speaker 6: What they were trying to do is crack down on
Speaker 6: some organized crime by arresting people in large groups. If
Speaker 6: they thought if they suspected you or your friends were criminals,
Speaker 6: they could arrest you all and then figure it out later.
Speaker 6: The law came under some scrutiny, of course, because some
Speaker 6: judges thought, you know, this isn't right. But what the
Speaker 6: police thought they could do is grab all of you
Speaker 6: like they could grab the whole Relis gang, just because
Speaker 6: they you know, have heard these guys are bad bring
Speaker 6: them in and then try to hold them on vagrancy,
Speaker 6: which basically means you don't have any money, we can
Speaker 6: hold you for one hundred days and there's nothing you
Speaker 6: can do about it. But what happened that backfire all
Speaker 6: the time because these young gangsters had money, they had lawyers,
Speaker 6: and by then they had impressed people like Lepki and
Speaker 6: Jacob Shapiro and Luciano. So these guys had a whole
Speaker 6: network in place of bail. They had houses, they had cars.
Speaker 6: You couldn't say it was vagrancy. And some judges, even
Speaker 6: though they knew these guys were bad, their hands were tied.
Speaker 6: They said, we can't you can't even use this law.
Speaker 6: So it was it was a weird time for legal
Speaker 6: issues as well. I mean, it was quite a dynamic
Speaker 6: that whole time period. There were there were so many
Speaker 6: factors that went into how Murder Inc. Act actually existed
Speaker 6: in thrived for as long as it did.
Speaker 5: Now you go on with with the and talk about
Speaker 5: Mayor Lansky and in some of his cohorts and Bugsy Seagulls,
Speaker 5: So tell us a little bit more about Murder inc.
Speaker 5: And how it came to be known as Murder inc.
Speaker 6: Well, murder Inc. The name was definitely a product of
Speaker 6: the press, not that it's any different than today in
Speaker 6: terms of Hey, the most eye catching, outrageous headlines are
Speaker 6: what sell you know, the news, that's what they did.
Speaker 6: There's definitely been debate over the last century as to
Speaker 6: where the name Murder Inc. Really originated, and I addressed
Speaker 6: a couple of the you know, theories I found in
Speaker 6: my research over the years that people had discussed of
Speaker 6: who really came up with it, But it was definitely
Speaker 6: a name that's stuck. Once, you know, the whole case
Speaker 6: broke in early nineteen forty, it was quickly dubbed murder Inc.
Speaker 6: Those guys themselves Dan They referred to that group as
Speaker 6: the combination that's what they call themselves, were Combination guys.
Speaker 6: Murder Inc. Again was you know, labeled by the press.
Speaker 5: Now, you outline a lot of the characters that people
Speaker 5: have been interested in mob stories would know, of course,
Speaker 5: like Prel's Lucky Luciano and and Lewis Lepki, Blue Calter
Speaker 5: at Mary Lansky. But you do have quite a bit
Speaker 5: of information on the you know, the striking characters that
Speaker 5: are the gangbusters as you call them. John Harlan Amon,
Speaker 5: Thomas Dewey, William Dickleman, all Burton Turkis so talk especially
Speaker 5: about William O'Dwyer and Thomas Dewey, both district attorneys. Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about Thomas Dewey first introduced this character.
Speaker 6: Well, Dewey was definitely a politician or he he had aspirations.
Speaker 6: He saw his future by taking down New York's crime lords,
Speaker 6: and he went after the big fish. He went after Bouchalter,
Speaker 6: he went after dutch Schultz, he went after Luciano, and
Speaker 6: he was quite successful on a lot of those levels,
Speaker 6: and it made a name for him. He was he
Speaker 6: was basically a celebrity. And then William O'Dwyer he came
Speaker 6: in as the DA for Brooklyn and he started going
Speaker 6: after what what I put in the book is like
Speaker 6: the lower tier type of gangsters. But it ended up Wow,
Speaker 6: that was even to me, that was even bigger than
Speaker 6: what Dewey did with the murdering. But yeah, o dwyer
Speaker 6: came in and he he I say, a lot of
Speaker 6: it was luck in how this whole thing unfolded before him,
Speaker 6: because really it was Burton Turkish, his assistant district attorney,
Speaker 6: that was the true gangbuster a man he was. He
Speaker 6: was really good too with what he did. I think
Speaker 6: he opened the door for it. But that's what it
Speaker 6: took a lot of people. Just like with the mob Dan,
Speaker 6: there's never one person, it's it's a whole sort of
Speaker 6: alliance or you know where things are are just aligned perfectly.
Speaker 5: Now with these lawmen, when when do they get an
Speaker 5: ink nation that there is this enforcement arm? And who
Speaker 5: some of those members might be. When does that happen?
Speaker 5: And who is who can you say is most responsible
Speaker 5: for discovering and putting things together to say this is
Speaker 5: this enforcement arm, it's murder inc that discovery? Wh would
Speaker 5: that too?
Speaker 6: I really, I'd have to say John Harland. He didn't
Speaker 6: realize at the time, but he was the one that
Speaker 6: really started probing all these guys uh in the in
Speaker 6: the candy shop that they were hanging out. He knew
Speaker 6: something was really wrong, something was going on, and that
Speaker 6: opened the door for O'Dwyer and Duly to an extent,
Speaker 6: who was already sort of beyond and going elsewhere. But
Speaker 6: I really, I really credit John Harlan for cracking that
Speaker 6: door open, and then O'Dwyer. There's o'dwar well as you're
Speaker 6: in the book, you'll see there's some controversy even over
Speaker 6: what he did and didn't do during that and Burton
Speaker 6: Turkas I really think was the man that totally smashed it.
Speaker 5: It's an interesting tale that you have as well, and
Speaker 5: as very important to the story as you talked about
Speaker 5: the candy store and the motherly figure that was the
Speaker 5: front for it, Rose, I believe. So tell us about
Speaker 5: the candy store and its importance to this story and
Speaker 5: to these mobsters.
Speaker 6: The realis gangs they were called that became what murdering was.
Speaker 6: They all hung out at a candy store in Brooklyn
Speaker 6: which was operated by an illiterate old lady who was
Speaker 6: a grandma, and she and her son and some of
Speaker 6: his cronies ran different rackets out of the joint or
Speaker 6: she allowed it, let's say, and she made some nice
Speaker 6: money from it. These guys eventually made her candy store
Speaker 6: their office for murder incorporated.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 6: There were a lot of people involved. That's why this
Speaker 6: book book there's so many names, because there really were
Speaker 6: a lot of people involved. But yes, their ground zero
Speaker 6: was a candy shop in Brooklyn.
Speaker 5: And tell us about law enforcement's discovery of this.
Speaker 6: Well, that was definitely John Harlan trying to clean up Brooklyn.
Speaker 6: They kept hearing these names of abe Rellis and Happy
Speaker 6: may Own and Pittsburgh Phil and these guys that were
Speaker 6: always milling around this place. They knew there was gambling,
Speaker 6: they knew there was bootlegging, they knew there was prostitution,
Speaker 6: they knew there was morphine being traffic through there. And
Speaker 6: when they started to put it all together, they realized, oh,
Speaker 6: that's why these guys are always hanging out here. This
Speaker 6: is where they basically take their phone calls from the
Speaker 6: boss bosses telling them here, you need to take out
Speaker 6: this person, You need to take out that person. That's
Speaker 6: really how it all unfolded.
Speaker 5: In the short version, you also mentioned a detective named
Speaker 5: John Osnado, So tell us his importance to this story.
Speaker 4: What does he do?
Speaker 6: Asnado was with O'Dwyer during the very first interrogation of
Speaker 6: one of Murdering's underlings that what really broke the case
Speaker 6: open was as Nato and O'Dwyer's little reverse psychology plan
Speaker 6: to get this young guy named Anthony Duke Mafatore to
Speaker 6: explain to them what the hell was going on with
Speaker 6: all these other guys, and it was I don't want
Speaker 6: to give away what they did to them, but they
Speaker 6: eventually got him to talk and he was the very
Speaker 6: first one to start naming names, and it was it
Speaker 6: was an incredible downfall from that minute on.
Speaker 5: Now, we won't give that away, but tell us what
Speaker 5: the prosecution finally looks like when they I believe it's
Speaker 5: nineteen forty, when they finally can attempt to pick this
Speaker 5: to a courtroom and make these charges stick. So tell
Speaker 5: us about that whole initiative.
Speaker 6: Well, very unlike today and not always for what turned
Speaker 6: out to be good, but justice was a little more swift.
Speaker 6: Literally within three months of finding out what they thought
Speaker 6: was going on, they rounded everybody up that any name
Speaker 6: that came to mind, they rounded them up, and they
Speaker 6: immediately started putting two to three guys on trial together.
Speaker 6: And they were going straight for the electric chair. That's
Speaker 6: what the prosecution wanted. So by May of nineteen forty,
Speaker 6: they had already started putting these guys on trial. It
Speaker 6: was that fast. And with that Dan oddly where I
Speaker 6: say there's sort of a downside to this. Again, we're
Speaker 6: not talking about a time where you had a lot
Speaker 6: of evidence to use they were basically sending people to
Speaker 6: the electric chair based on another bad guy's testimony. That
Speaker 6: is pretty much and not that these guys weren't really
Speaker 6: bad and the prosecution knew it. But at the same time,
Speaker 6: could you imagine that today where just a couple of
Speaker 6: people get to go and stand and then they send
Speaker 6: you the electriccare It was just it's hard to digest
Speaker 6: in certain ways.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it certainly wouldn't happen now, it's a it wouldn't
Speaker 5: happen now. The thing is we talked about in the
Speaker 5: introduction that and everybody talks about how they only kill
Speaker 5: their own if you're an informant. That's the worst offense ever.
Speaker 5: They have this murder ink to deal with those informants
Speaker 5: that would dare to file their their bosses and their
Speaker 5: fellow gangsters and be an informant. And really the key
Speaker 5: to the successful prosecution is guys turning informant right from
Speaker 5: this murder ink. So tell us about the first first
Speaker 5: guys that jump ship and help out the prosecution.
Speaker 6: The prosecution part of it be lucked out, and part
Speaker 6: of it was very clever thinking that they grabbed the
Speaker 6: younger guys right who were not the biggest players in
Speaker 6: Murder Inc. But were very privy to the actions of
Speaker 6: murder Inc. These were young family men. They knew we
Speaker 6: can probably break them. And because I would say one
Speaker 6: of the biggest mistakes the Murder Inc. Boys made was
Speaker 6: having so many extended people involved in one way or
Speaker 6: another that had knowledge of the worst stuff they did.
Speaker 6: So the prosecution breaks a couple of the young ones,
Speaker 6: the young ones who are always hanging around here and
Speaker 6: see everything. So they start talking, naming names the bigger guys.
Speaker 6: Most of them didn't want to talk, except for and
Speaker 6: this is where I say there's no or little honor
Speaker 6: among thieves. The biggest cruelest member of the group, abe Ellis, himself,
Speaker 6: decided to save his own skin as well when he
Speaker 6: heard other people were turning informant and he was the
Speaker 6: prosecution star witness then, so even their boss, their main guy,
Speaker 6: turned uh, you know, state's witness against them. So it
Speaker 6: was it was definitely a lesson, or you know, you
Speaker 6: would think it would be a lesson. There is no
Speaker 6: honor among thieves.
Speaker 5: When these trials began, what was the media response, how
Speaker 5: was it received? Tell us a little bit about that,
Speaker 5: about the coverage of the testimony and tell us about
Speaker 5: that media response.
Speaker 6: That was, well, it was national and of course by
Speaker 6: the time the press was really all over it. Now
Speaker 6: local press was on it. And of course the term
Speaker 6: murdering was you know, labeled, that was it then everybody
Speaker 6: was using it. But once the news broke, because these
Speaker 6: guys were national you know, traveled around to do hits,
Speaker 6: it became one of the most sensational stories of that era.
Speaker 6: I know, there were definitely a few. You know, you
Speaker 6: had the Lindbergh baby thing going on, you know, and
Speaker 6: of course the war, Yeah, it was going on. This
Speaker 6: was a sensational uh filler for sure. But yeah, especially
Speaker 6: in New York obviously because because you can imagine being
Speaker 6: there at that time and just having not being able
Speaker 6: to fathom how extensive this was unless you were part
Speaker 6: of it or lived, you know, through it. Maybe some
Speaker 6: of those people weren't surprised.
Speaker 5: So who is the you say, a realist kid twist
Speaker 5: is their their star witness? What's he like on the
Speaker 5: stand when he finally gets there, what does demeanor like,
Speaker 5: how does he act? Is he is he a good witness?
Speaker 5: And what kind of information is he is providing? How
Speaker 5: is the tell us about the details of that interaction.
Speaker 6: In terms of going up on the witness stand and
Speaker 6: delivering testimony, he was good in the sense that he
Speaker 6: told everything. What was creepy and odd about it is
Speaker 6: that he was very nonchalant even in his own actions
Speaker 6: that he admitted to, and there were moments where that
Speaker 6: was even questionable. What drew some controversy or detractors against
Speaker 6: the prosecution was just that how can you use a
Speaker 6: guy that admitted to basically killing someone in his own
Speaker 6: house while his mother in law was asleep in the
Speaker 6: next room. You know, how can you use this guy
Speaker 6: and expect, you know, anybody to feel something when he
Speaker 6: is your star witness. So it's it's a double edged sword.
Speaker 6: But was he good? Yeah? The prosecution thought he was
Speaker 6: a godsend because he was the boss of that group
Speaker 6: and he told on all of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Incredible.
Speaker 5: Now, how effective are they in terms of actual numbers?
Speaker 5: You say this would not would not happen now, and
Speaker 5: I would agree with you that there's no way that
Speaker 5: this stuff would happen, especially in short order. So tell
Speaker 5: us about how many of those people are convicted by
Speaker 5: this these techniques or in these courts and so tell
Speaker 5: us about sort of their success rate.
Speaker 6: Hmmm. Well, when you look at the whole picture, and
Speaker 6: these trials went on for several years. It first it
Speaker 6: looked good because immediately they were getting death sentences for
Speaker 6: the main guys, okay, like real quick. But then those
Speaker 6: went into appeals and it almost looked for a moment
Speaker 6: like some of them might have, you know, got a reprieve.
Speaker 6: What ended up happening though with a lot of these
Speaker 6: other I want to say the extended members, a lot
Speaker 6: of them oddly walked. Some of them skit were given
Speaker 6: death sentences and were able to not only walk away
Speaker 6: from that, walk out of jail. It was not I
Speaker 6: think the prosecution was happy dan in if he got
Speaker 6: the main poster boys, but they didn't get a lot
Speaker 6: of the extended players. These guys, a lot of them
Speaker 6: lucked out, either got a few years in jail, or
Speaker 6: got out of the death sentence all together. Some got
Speaker 6: no jail time. So you never know what's going to
Speaker 6: happen in court law. You know, everybody knows that, you
Speaker 6: never know what's going to happen.
Speaker 5: Right, And you say some people that deserved old Sparky
Speaker 5: there didn't get their chair and ended up really well.
Speaker 5: So you do talk about and chronicle the ones that
Speaker 5: did quite well and the guys that didn't do well
Speaker 5: at all. When you say, some of these death penalties
Speaker 5: were carried out in fairly short order compared to some
Speaker 5: of the states now that have taken you fifteen years
Speaker 5: on death row.
Speaker 6: So right right, yeah, in regardless of how you feel
Speaker 6: about the death penalty, well, yeah, the wait is way
Speaker 6: too long now, I guess, and back then it was
Speaker 6: way too quick. I'll say this. The one trial that
Speaker 6: I personally think was questionable, to say the least, was Lefki,
Speaker 6: Lewis Capone, and Mandy Weiss. Now those three were put
Speaker 6: on trial and they were all executed together, but there
Speaker 6: is plenty to show. I don't know that they really
Speaker 6: should have executed Lepk. I mean, though he was the
Speaker 6: boss and called these orders in. It was weird. And
Speaker 6: the other two guys were basically bad guys too, But
Speaker 6: the ones that really did the crime that they put
Speaker 6: them on trial for weren't even on trial for that crime.
Speaker 6: It was a weird thing, Dan. And I'm not a
Speaker 6: lawyer or judge, but I look at it like, wow,
Speaker 6: that one. I think they just wanted to fry everybody.
Speaker 6: And what ended up happening is a couple of years later,
Speaker 6: a lot of the guys that they still thought were
Speaker 6: going to go to jail or whatever walked free and
Speaker 6: either retired or became criminals in a different realm. So
Speaker 6: to me, the prosecution really didn't win in the end anyway.
Speaker 5: Were there any players that arose in terms of defense
Speaker 5: of some of these gangsters, You say the tide turned
Speaker 5: in the shortened the four years of these trials, or
Speaker 5: so right, really good?
Speaker 6: And then well what happened? Right? They think they have
Speaker 6: such a strong case, and they did, and how else
Speaker 6: can I put this? They blew it all on the
Speaker 6: first few trials and they got their best sentences, but
Speaker 6: when it came to all the extended bunch, they ended
Speaker 6: up not really having as much as they wanted because
Speaker 6: certain witnesses all of a sudden were like, I don't remember,
Speaker 6: or I didn't you know, I'm not sure it was him.
Speaker 6: And then defenses became a little better, a little more
Speaker 6: savvy to it, and got reduced sentences for plea bargains,
Speaker 6: and all of a sudden people were going free or
Speaker 6: getting a few years in prison. No, no, don't get
Speaker 6: me wrong. Some of them did end up dying in
Speaker 6: prison anyway, but there were more than a handful that
Speaker 6: ended up walking. And that's why later in the book
Speaker 6: I have a whole section called you know, whatever happened
Speaker 6: to some of the stories I could find about these
Speaker 6: people the post murdering hype.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, let's talk about one of those stories too,
Speaker 5: because one of them I thought was very interesting and
Speaker 5: I probably see this stuff re regurgitated or recycled in
Speaker 5: fictional accounts about the wife that believed she knew who
Speaker 5: had killed her husband, testified or went to the police
Speaker 5: and then at some point recanted that, or had some
Speaker 5: kind of memory laps. Tell us about that.
Speaker 6: Oh, there were a few cases of that. Of the
Speaker 6: one of the best ones has to be Elsie Feinstein.
Speaker 6: She was married to a guy named Sam Feinstein. He
Speaker 6: was involved with the Murder Inc.
Speaker 5: Guys.
Speaker 6: Decided he wanted to go straight, and he started verbally
Speaker 6: expressing that, well, that was a bad move. And one
Speaker 6: day Sam goes for a ride and he doesn't come back.
Speaker 6: The guys from Murder Inc. Then provided Elsie with fifty
Speaker 6: dollars in an envelope every week. Well, once the murdering
Speaker 6: trials started, they brought Elsie in and questioned her, and
Speaker 6: she acknowledged that her husband disappeared. They didn't know, you know,
Speaker 6: they didn't know where he was, and that she was
Speaker 6: getting fifty dollars a week from the mob. However it was,
Speaker 6: it was brought, It was brought to the attention of
Speaker 6: prosecutors that was not telling the whole story. One of
Speaker 6: the state's witnesses, Albert TikTok Tannembomb, had a sixteen millimeter
Speaker 6: film of Elsie frolicking on a be with three or
Speaker 6: four members of Murder Incorporated. He brings this into the
Speaker 6: prosecutors and what really had to be one of the
Speaker 6: first ever used cases of sexualize and videotape. This guy
Speaker 6: at a home movie of them partying on a Miami beach,
Speaker 6: and his assistant, Da Burton Turkis described what he saw.
Speaker 6: You know, he said, Elsie frolicking around in a bikini
Speaker 6: the size of two handkerchiefs with all the guys that
Speaker 6: basically killed her husband. So they presented this tour. She
Speaker 6: tried to say it wasn't her. They locked her up
Speaker 6: for a few months and then she had a change
Speaker 6: of heart and admitted that you know, yeah, my husband
Speaker 6: was probably killed by them, and I partied in Miami
Speaker 6: with all of them. Yeah, it was just it truth
Speaker 6: to strangers. In fiction, it's just crazy stories. That's what
Speaker 6: I tried to do with this book, is give all
Speaker 6: this the wild side. Stuff that isn't is covered as much.
Speaker 5: Yeah. The other thing too, was this is another one
Speaker 5: I've read as well. And you know, I am a
Speaker 5: big fan of the Sopranos, and right out of real life,
Speaker 5: right out of true crime, you talk about a hit
Speaker 5: on the wrong person. Tell us about that story, which
Speaker 5: was fascinating.
Speaker 6: Uh. Yeah. They wanted to take out somebody involved with
Speaker 6: you know, unions and you know strong arming unions, and
Speaker 6: LEPKI decided a contract needed to be put out on
Speaker 6: this guy. They sent Jack Parici, Seymour Magoon and Cuppy
Speaker 6: Migden to go take this guy out. Cuppy Migden says, oh,
Speaker 6: I know who he is. I know who he is.
Speaker 6: I'll point him out Jack Parice, he's gonna shoot him. Well,
Speaker 6: here comes this guy out of his apartment walking down
Speaker 6: the street to go to work or parisy blasphem. They
Speaker 6: get in the car, they go home and find out
Speaker 6: a day later they killed a completely innocent guy who
Speaker 6: happened to physically look like the guy they were supposed
Speaker 6: to hid and lived in the same building. So that
Speaker 6: was an epic fail on their part. But back to
Speaker 6: your earlier about guys that ended up getting off, you
Speaker 6: know what, all three of the men involved basically skated
Speaker 6: from that one. That was a perfect example. One turn
Speaker 6: state's witness. One hid for a few years, the other
Speaker 6: hid for ten years, and then when they were caught,
Speaker 6: they ended up getting off of everything. Anyway, it was
Speaker 6: just again this you just can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 6: How this all went down.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you include what happens to kuppies. They're not too
Speaker 5: happy with his his eyewitness account of who the victim
Speaker 5: was supposed to be.
Speaker 6: No, no, and it's amazing he didn't get killed just
Speaker 6: for you know, messing up. That's so bad. But you
Speaker 6: know what, you blame them all. It's the whole thing.
Speaker 6: These guys thought they knew everything they really did, and
Speaker 6: granted a lot of times when they didn't know who
Speaker 6: a guy was and were told or shown a picture,
Speaker 6: they were successful a lot of times. But for the
Speaker 6: most part, again, there's such an arrogance. I think it's
Speaker 6: one of the most fascinating parts of the whole story
Speaker 6: is the unbelievable narcissism across the board with these guys.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about murder Inc. Being this unprecedented, you know,
Speaker 5: murderous group that rose to prominence and carried out all
Speaker 5: these assassinations after this trial in the forties beginning of
Speaker 5: nineteen forty did organize crime? Obviously organized crime? The membership
Speaker 5: changes all the time, that's one thing about it. Always freshmen, right,
Speaker 5: But did the landscape change in terms of did they
Speaker 5: learn any lesson from having this enforcement arm go so
Speaker 5: public and be so such a loose canon, such an
Speaker 5: overkill and so much attention from the authorities, and so
Speaker 5: tell us if they learned anything and did they conduct
Speaker 5: themselves differently after this?
Speaker 6: I would I would have to say absolutely they did.
Speaker 6: I mean, there was actual discussions or you know gangland
Speaker 6: lore that you know, some of the even top bosses
Speaker 6: didn't really like how it was going on anyway, were
Speaker 6: the ones that were a little more diplomatic. And then
Speaker 6: there's some debate that even the diplomatic ones still thought
Speaker 6: you needed, you know, killer arm. It's just a God
Speaker 6: out of hand. And also you're talking about by nineteen
Speaker 6: forty a lot you know, Lepki was executed. Well, you know,
Speaker 6: by the mid forties, Luciano was already in jail Meyer Lansky.
Speaker 6: He always kind of tried to stay under the radar.
Speaker 6: Frank Costello, you know, was shaking hands with everybody, so
Speaker 6: he stayed out of a lot of trouble. But you
Speaker 6: also had the actual mafia was had evolved from nineteen
Speaker 6: thirty on into the Five Families, So there was a
Speaker 6: whole new dynamic that I would imagine had learned a
Speaker 6: lot of lessons from what murdering did. It's and here's
Speaker 6: the other thing. When murdering ended, I don't even like
Speaker 6: to say it ended, because it didn't just people didn't
Speaker 6: stop getting killed. It was that that ten year span ended.
Speaker 6: But there were still things that lagged and carried over,
Speaker 6: you know, even to the mafia as it rose. And
Speaker 6: then when the Jewish faction sort of assimilated more into
Speaker 6: legitimate society. You know, it was a change, like you said,
Speaker 6: it was a change of guard membership. The way it worked.
Speaker 5: I'll asked this question too, Did prosecution learn anything from
Speaker 5: the Again, some of the missteps that they did in
Speaker 5: this almost fifteen years of trying to prosecute these gangsters.
Speaker 5: Did they learn anything and did they make any headway
Speaker 5: themselves in terms of changing the laws to accommodate themselves
Speaker 5: when they're trying to prosecute these guys.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, And I think it took a long time for
Speaker 6: it really to come in. And I'll go as far
Speaker 6: as say, like the Rico Act late, you know, many
Speaker 6: many years later. But what happened in the early nineteen
Speaker 6: fifties is this didn't die in the eyes of some
Speaker 6: of these Senate committees. They really wanted to know how
Speaker 6: things went well and how things went badly with the
Speaker 6: murder inc trials. And they were calling people, a lot
Speaker 6: of people before them, to question and say, hey, you know,
Speaker 6: how did this get screwed up here? And why did
Speaker 6: this happen here? So it didn't just die. And I
Speaker 6: do think that it improved, you know, law enforcement and
Speaker 6: you know how the laws were applied to things. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you had from that decade, Dan, my god, so many
Speaker 6: missteps and wacky stuff. They definitely learned.
Speaker 5: What we didn't talk about is that there were some
Speaker 5: spectacular fines, burial grounds, shallow Graves tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about what you talk about in the book about
Speaker 5: some of these discoveries.
Speaker 6: Well, that was that is definitely a fascinating part of it. Again,
Speaker 6: for almost ten years, all these people disappear and nobody's
Speaker 6: putting two and two together. And it was very hard too.
Speaker 6: There was no way to really put two and two together.
Speaker 6: Once they did in nineteen forty and witnesses were taking
Speaker 6: them to dumping grounds in the Catskills. There were properties
Speaker 6: and lakes and yes, lime pits with bodies. New Jersey.
Speaker 6: They were getting rid of the cars where they murdered
Speaker 6: people in pieces in junk yards throughout Brooklyn. Everything was
Speaker 6: being disposed of, but nothing is truly gone. So by
Speaker 6: the end of nineteen forty two they had found not
Speaker 6: all and that's why we'll never know how many people
Speaker 6: they really killed, but they did find a hell of
Speaker 6: a lot of bodies and car parts and other things
Speaker 6: that were related to these killings. Based on witnesses remembering
Speaker 6: and saying, hey, let's take a ride. I'll show you
Speaker 6: where they dumped the bunch up and Sullomon, you know,
Speaker 6: or Monticello, New York. Yeah, it was crazy stuff.
Speaker 5: One of the great aspects of your book is the
Speaker 5: photos that you were able to get. The incredible amount
Speaker 5: of photos and the quality of these photos are just
Speaker 5: incredible the stuff. If you're ever interested in this stuff,
Speaker 5: you've got this incredible collection. So tell us about this
Speaker 5: incredible collection. Where was your source and tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit more about the photos that you've included.
Speaker 6: All right, Well, first I have to give I have
Speaker 6: to give credit where credit is due. I really got
Speaker 6: hooked on acquiring these kind of things from a colleague
Speaker 6: of mine, Arthur Nash. He that his book just that
Speaker 6: did it. I was hooked like a crack addict. Then
Speaker 6: I started going after these and what I ended up
Speaker 6: doing is getting every press photo or police photo mugshots
Speaker 6: of these guys. And what it evolved into was not
Speaker 6: just getting photos of crime scenes and these guys, but
Speaker 6: also the locations because back then, uh newspaper photographers took
Speaker 6: pictures of everything, not just you know, somebody walking in handcuffs,
Speaker 6: like an example, the picture of the junk yard. To me,
Speaker 6: that may seem like nothing special, but to me, that's
Speaker 6: one of my prize in the collections, like the actual
Speaker 6: junk yard search from murder Ink. Yeah, I have this,
Speaker 6: it's my it's my other main thing. I like to
Speaker 6: say I'm a writer, and I also like to say
Speaker 6: I'm a curator of weird stuff.
Speaker 5: Dan, Yeah, I noticed that that it we said your
Speaker 5: private collection, So I said, ah, interesting, Yeah, incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Now with this uh, with this book, has there been
Speaker 5: any have you you ever get any gangsters, mobsters guys
Speaker 5: kind of disputing some of the things that are in
Speaker 5: the book. And with this book, was there any any
Speaker 5: contact at all like that, any kind of antidote that
Speaker 5: you might be able to pass on.
Speaker 6: No, with this one, actually, well nothing, not in the
Speaker 6: way of detractors, which and that's fine too. Anybody. I
Speaker 6: love to, you know, find out where we were all
Speaker 6: wrong or whatever, you know, when you write one of
Speaker 6: these books, because we weren't there. But most of these
Speaker 6: people are dead. What was fascinating is that I did
Speaker 6: another colleague and friend of mine, Michael Mordene, his grandmother's
Speaker 6: story with Happy to Own and letting me use a
Speaker 6: photograph of her and telling me how she, you know,
Speaker 6: just passed away a couple of years ago and used
Speaker 6: to talk about these guys, she knew them, And that
Speaker 6: was incredible. The only book and when I wrote Diary
Speaker 6: of MotorCity hit Man. Now, there were people that were
Speaker 6: still alive from the seventies that were that book, but
Speaker 6: most of them were just very happy that the book
Speaker 6: was written. And then I was cleared up on some
Speaker 6: things that were incorrect and all that, which was great.
Speaker 6: But no, I've never had anybody like really detract yet.
Speaker 5: No, that's good. Interesting. So now, what did you find
Speaker 5: anything surprising after all the research you did on this
Speaker 5: and being you know, basically for a better term and
Speaker 5: you know, an organized crime expert here, from the research
Speaker 5: that you've done in the books that you've written, was
Speaker 5: there anything really surprising, really surprising to you after writing
Speaker 5: this book?
Speaker 6: You know, I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice, dan Ah.
Speaker 6: I've been fascinated with all this stuff for twenty some years,
Speaker 6: and yeah, I was surprised at every turn, and partially
Speaker 6: because it puts you in your place and you're like,
Speaker 6: oh wow, I thought I knew that you know everything
Speaker 6: and you don't. But what really surprised me the most,
Speaker 6: and maybe it's not in the terms of oh my god,
Speaker 6: that's shocking. It was really the question that I wanted
Speaker 6: to answer but didn't know what question I was asking
Speaker 6: myself when I was writing the book, and that was
Speaker 6: what did these guys really really think of themselves? And
Speaker 6: when I found the quote which you probably saw, and
Speaker 6: I'm not going to say what it is that Bugsy
Speaker 6: Goldstein gave in the early nineteen thirties to a cop
Speaker 6: and a reporter, I think it totally answered the million
Speaker 6: dollar question what did these guys see of themselves? And
Speaker 6: what were they aspiring to? That was the most shocking
Speaker 6: to actually find. Wow, there's the you know, they actually
Speaker 6: said it what they thought?
Speaker 5: Yeah, systemab that to me?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, exactly, Yeah, incredible, incredible.
Speaker 5: So now for people that would like to know more
Speaker 5: about this, do you have a website? Do you do Facebook?
Speaker 5: Tell us how people might contact you or find out
Speaker 5: more information about you and the other books they written.
Speaker 6: Sure, my website is Gangland Legends dot com. They can
Speaker 6: I'm on Twitter at SIP the Scallion at CIP the Scallion,
Speaker 6: I'm on Facebook, look me up. I welcome questions, comments, complaints, anything.
Speaker 6: I love it. I love to hear what people think
Speaker 6: or I have to offer, and I certainly hope if
Speaker 6: anybody looks at my books it makes them want to
Speaker 6: go find out more from whatever source. That's part of
Speaker 6: what I do. So I love it. Yeah, come visit,
Speaker 6: say hi absolutely.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about this Mysteries of the mobs most Deadly
Speaker 5: Hit Squad. I mean a lot of us have talked
Speaker 5: and not talked about it, but basically no, we think
Speaker 5: we know about Murder Inc. It's finally good to hear
Speaker 5: the low down on this and for anybody who was
Speaker 5: interested this evening, we did leave a lot of things
Speaker 5: things out we didn't there's a lot of spoilers here
Speaker 5: that we we didn't leave. We didn't give everything away,
Speaker 5: so there's a lot of information in here that just
Speaker 5: blow your mind. And like I said, there's so many
Speaker 5: stories here that wow, I thought that was a fictional story,
Speaker 5: but no, sure as sure as that gets a true
Speaker 5: true life story. So again I want to thank you
Speaker 5: very much for a great book, Murder Inc. And for
Speaker 5: coming on and discussing it with us this evening.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, No, thank you Dan. Always a pleasure.
Speaker 5: Okay, you have yourself a good night you too, by bye.