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Noperch is necessary if 43 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:07.400 we were privitted by loss he terms and Conditions eighteen plus. 44 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.719 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 45 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:22.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:29.000 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK. 47 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:33.719 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 48 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.919 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 49 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.199 your host journalist and author. 50 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:56.560 Dan Zupanski, Good evening. Nothing like it before, nothing like 51 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:01.319 it since. Murder, Inc. Was the most un you, visual, brutal, 52 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:05.599 and extensive collection of characters the American underworld had ever produced. 53 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.800 Called primarily from Brookland's Brownsville and Ocean Hill sections, these 54 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:15.599 official on call killers of New York's larger crime syndicate 55 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:20.199 were a unified force of Jewish and Italian gangsters. They 56 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.319 treated murder as an art form for an entire decade. 57 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.280 They were called mobsters, thugs, hoods, and racketeers, but at 58 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:35.039 the very core they were assassins. When gangland kingpins such 59 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:40.400 as Lewis Lepki Buchalter, Charles Lucky Luciano, and Benjamin Bugsy 60 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.560 Siegeld needed a contract fulfilled, the combination boys would eagerly 61 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:49.960 take the task. The enforcement duties, which included methods ranging 62 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:55.199 from gunfire to fire axes, incineration to ice picks. These 63 00:03:55.240 --> 00:04:00.479 are the mysteries, the sordid stories, the character profiles, alluring 64 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.080 and lesser known tales of the Mob's most deadly hit Squad. 65 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.919 Meet the killers, the victims, the bosses, the lovers, the deceivers, 66 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.000 and the gangsters that made up a nationally reaching ensemble 67 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:17.240 cast rivaling anything organized crime or law enforcement had ever 68 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:22.079 imagined to that point in time. Discover the nuances, the attitudes, 69 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:26.439 the motivations, the ambitions, and, thanks to little honor among thieves, 70 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:31.720 the scathing revelations that lead to an inevitable downfall. The 71 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.399 book that we're featuring this evening is Murder inc. Mysteries 72 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.000 of the Mob's most Deadly Hit Squad, with my special guest, 73 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:43.040 journalist and author Christian Cippolini. Welcome back to the program, 74 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:47.839 and thank you for a greeting this interview. Christian Cippolini, Dan, 75 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:49.360 thank you for having me again. 76 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:50.399 Always a pleasure. 77 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:54.199 Thank you very much, and it's always a pleasure. And 78 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:59.879 we'll get right into this most extraordinary tale. For every 79 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.399 body that thinks they know about the Mob, this is 80 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:09.000 one more layer of understanding, I believe incredible. Now you 81 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:16.439 start off by explaining that that the mob was not designed, 82 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:23.759 not organized, not operated for the purpose of killing. What 83 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.839 was the purpose of you know, what was the purpose 84 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:32.439 of the mob, And before we get into murdering itself. 85 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:39.160 But basic economics, to make money. The mob existed for 86 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.439 achieving the American's dream, just in a different way than 87 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:49.279 legitimate society did. It wasn't about killing or being brutal 88 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:55.600 tough guys. That comes with it, you know, because it's 89 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.839 such an illegitimate thing that we're doing. But no, it 90 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.120 was about making money. It was that simple. 91 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.680 Now you say that, like any any organization, even legitimate corporations, 92 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.399 they operated the same way. They would have accounts payable, 93 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.720 they'd have public relations that have logistics, and then they 94 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:21.079 would have an enforcement arm. So we always know that 95 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.759 there's somebody is going to do the dirtiest of dirty work. 96 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.000 Tell us about that. How did how did that come 97 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:31.680 to be? And how did they pick people for enforcement? 98 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.720 How did that works? 99 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.439 It's such a mind boggling But I don't know, simplistic 100 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.839 in a way dynamic to the whole thing. They needed 101 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:52.720 a self policing unit. I suppose what happened. The short 102 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.920 version is the guys who were becoming big time, like 103 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:01.839 Luciano Lanski, Boucalper, all those guys. But some of them 104 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:07.360 had been watching these youngerhoods and what they had achieved 105 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:13.399 on their own, and it sort of evolved into the 106 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:20.480 situation where they figured these guys would be good at 107 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:24.800 handling the really nasty stuff, and they brought them in. 108 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.560 These guys were these younger guys were looking to make 109 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.839 a name for themselves and they were doing that in 110 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:36.279 the established guys saw it happen. They saw what was happening, 111 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:41.839 So that's sort of why they selected them. 112 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.399 They were they weren't. None of these people really shy 113 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.759 from murdering anyone in sort of the course of doing business. 114 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:53.879 But what were the things that really brought to attention 115 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.600 these guys that these this enforcement arm. What were the 116 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.000 kind of infractions that were just not going to be 117 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.000 you know, not going to be brushed aside. What would 118 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.560 bring the enforcement arm, this team of guys to your door. 119 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:09.800 What kind of rules were you not to ever break? 120 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:18.560 Well, obviously if you were suspected of speaking to law enforcement, 121 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:24.759 if you stole from the mob, if you wanted to 122 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.240 exit the mob. These are just a couple of the 123 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:32.080 reasons in order to get a death sentence. And of 124 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.559 course we're talking about roughly nineteen thirty through nineteen forty 125 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.639 is when these guys were doing it. But the biggest 126 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:47.159 things were obviously stealing from your own people, skimming, you know, 127 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:50.519 whatever you could get killed for, you know, skimming a 128 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.759 couple of dollars if one of the bosses wanted it done. 129 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.600 But the worst in fraction, the one where you were 130 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.159 probably going to be made an example of, is if 131 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:04.480 you were thought to be a stole pigeon, you want 132 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.639 to be a rat, whatever you want to call it. 133 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:09.639 That that usually got the worst punishment. 134 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.200 Now, when you talk about what we alluded to it, 135 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.720 or we mentioned it in the opening about incineration and 136 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.200 ice picks, there are many ways to kill someone. There's 137 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:24.759 been in many ways of sending a message. What were 138 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:27.559 these guys sometimes known for? What was there? What were 139 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:31.120 they characterize their behavior? We'll say, of these guys that 140 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:36.360 would kill, especially when it was an informant. 141 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:40.279 Uh, the word psychopathic definitely comes to mind with a 142 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.000 few of them. And though I'm not a psychiatrist or 143 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.840 a psychologist, when you see these guys go from young 144 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:55.799 men and shooting someone to evolving to the point where 145 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.879 they would use an ice pick for example. And one 146 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.600 of the best examples to paint this picture is there 147 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:09.960 was a reporter who wrote an article about one of 148 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:15.159 their murders and how he characterized it. What if it 149 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:19.639 takes three plunges of an ice pick to kill you, 150 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.679 these guys make sure they tack on fifty more plunges 151 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.000 of that ice pick for good measure, and then go 152 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:32.120 sit and have a lobster dinner. It's it was brutal. 153 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:37.000 They made this. They made a point of becoming more 154 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:39.399 and more brutal as the years went on. 155 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:47.000 What's interesting, too, is that where they basically got some 156 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.159 of these guys from, like we talked about in the opening, 157 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:53.679 was from Brooklyn. They'll tell us why in particular Brooklyn, 158 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.399 and then tell us begin to introduce some of the 159 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:01.440 characters that were the main players in organized crime at 160 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.200 that time. Like you said, in this era of this 161 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:09.360 decade of horrific murder and the you know, the reign 162 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:13.480 of murder Inc. In particular, named some of the main 163 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:15.559 players in this cast. 164 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.559 Well, these guys, the ones that were the core of 165 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:24.000 what would later be called Murder Inc. Were led by 166 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.799 Abe Kid twist Rellis. They were a handful of Jewish 167 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.679 guys and Italian guys from Brooklyn, and it could have 168 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:37.159 been any any part of New York, and there were 169 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.879 guys from the Bronx and Upper areas, but it just 170 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:44.639 so happened that these guys all sort of joined up 171 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:49.480 their gangs as young men and took out some up 172 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:54.879 and coming other gangsters. The really big up and coming 173 00:11:54.919 --> 00:12:00.120 gangsters saw this happening in Brooklyn and that's how they 174 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:02.080 became part of it. Like I said, it could have 175 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:05.200 been anywhere. It just so happened that these guys were 176 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:10.480 particularly well known within Brooklyn and outside of Brooklyn as 177 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:16.720 being constantly arrested and let go for any crime under 178 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.200 the sun. They were a gang who liked to be 179 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.159 known for what they did, and that caught the attention 180 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.799 of guys like Luciano, who was basically a Manhattan gangster, 181 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:35.039 and Buchalter, who was a racketeer in the Brooklyn area 182 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.840 and beyond. These guys saw this and that's why they 183 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.000 sort of chose them. But other guys that were Harry 184 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:48.720 Happy may Own, Harry Pittsburgh, Phil Strauss, Martin Bugsy Goldstein, 185 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:55.240 Frank Dasser, abendando. These were the main guys of the group, 186 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:59.399 but they had hired guns that would do maybe one 187 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:02.440 or two jobs that were from other areas, even other 188 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:05.679 parts of the country. This became national by the mid 189 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.200 nineteen thirties. These guys were going all over the country 190 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.759 and had contacts in various parts of the country. 191 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.279 Lucky Luciano tell us about the rise of Luckily Luciano 192 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.240 because there was a couple of crime bosses that were 193 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.200 obstacles and so you can tell us about this sort 194 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.480 of this conspiracy here basically for how he came to 195 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:34.240 power with Masuria and Marenganzo Marizano. So tell us about 196 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:39.600 the Ria Arenzano and Lucky Luciano and this play for power. 197 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:44.759 Well, I sort of did this book to follow up 198 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.320 my last one, which was on Luciano, and I kind 199 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.799 of knew this would be a fitting following because what 200 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:57.200 was happening in nineteen thirty nineteen thirty one, this major 201 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:03.399 mafia boss war, and Lucky Luciano and his buddies, both 202 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.960 Italian and Jewish, decided we need to take out both 203 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:10.320 these guys. And you know, obviously I'm oversimplifying this, but 204 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.159 here were these young Turks basically saying we got to 205 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.000 get rid of the old school. They knock off both 206 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:21.799 guys by a fall of nineteen thirty one. And at 207 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:25.159 the same time it was a parallel thing. You had 208 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:29.759 these young guys from Brooklyn who were taking over rackets 209 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:35.919 from other young racketeers. It was like two parallel worlds, 210 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:43.440 you know, on different scales of size. Luciano, Lanski, Costello, Bluclter, 211 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.039 all these guys basically by the end of nineteen thirty 212 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:53.240 one had changed the face of organized crime. Some people 213 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.240 will argue how much they did or how I'll stand 214 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.200 by this. They changed. It was a whole new era 215 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.759 by nineteen thirty one. And at the same time, these 216 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:07.519 young guys they knew what was going on with all 217 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.639 that too, and they were doing their own little thing, 218 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.960 and sooner or later that gap is bridged, and that's 219 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:17.720 how the murdering people hooked up with bosses. Well, by 220 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:22.639 that time, Luciano was a boss, Lanski was a boss. 221 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.480 If you want to call you know, they were all bosses. 222 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:36.440 The prosecution, the authorities, the government, they noticed who these 223 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.600 people were. Despite when we talk about organized crime in 224 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.559 and denial in the sixties, in the fifties, when forties 225 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:48.399 that there was such a thing as the mafioso. Authorities 226 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.320 knew what was going on here, were determined to try 227 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.639 to take these people to court. Tell us about the 228 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.919 state of prosecution at that time in the thirties and 229 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.559 some of the attempts, the first attempt to try to 230 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:03.639 take these guys to court and arrest them and have 231 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:04.639 them imprisoned. 232 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:12.759 But with the guys that were in murder incorporated one 233 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:18.759 of the biggest problems that society was dealing with. These 234 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.159 guys had money and were developing a lot of backing, 235 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:27.240 and had decent lawyers, and they could march in for 236 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:32.559 any infraction and months later be dismissed because witnesses wouldn't 237 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.519 come forward or it just wasn't enough evidence. And remember, 238 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:37.320 of course, we're talking about a time before there was 239 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:43.799 any CSI or DNA, So basically, these guys were getting 240 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:51.039 off scott free, and prosecutors were going after the big fish. 241 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.960 For the most part, they were going after the culters 242 00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:00.960 and Lucciano's, that's who they were. They did not know 243 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:07.480 for a decade that those guys had all these underlinked 244 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.960 carrying out hundreds of deaths that were all connected to 245 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:16.039 the same group. That's where there was this this disconnect. 246 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.279 And plus you don't have like today databases. You know 247 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.880 you had Brooklyn. There would be people here that know 248 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:23.759 about this, but they don't know about it in Manhattan 249 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:27.920 or Queens necessarily until it comes out in the newspapers 250 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.960 of what happened. So it was very difficult for the 251 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:35.000 judicial system, for law enforcement to put this all together 252 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:36.440 until nineteen forty. 253 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:42.599 They're not really known for leaving too much forensic evidence, 254 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.880 namely just you know, they they're well versed in knowing 255 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.839 how to dispose the bodies for the most part. 256 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:55.079 You would think you would think it's funny you bring 257 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.680 that up, because they here's something that happens when you're 258 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.359 too much of a narcissist or two cocky, it's going 259 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.079 to come back to bite you. These guys got away 260 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.319 with a lot, and no, there wasn't a lot of evidence. 261 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.559 Bodies were buried in lime pits and dumped in lakes, 262 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:20.119 but some of them reappeared. And these guys were even 263 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.400 a time stunned that they weren't i don't know, as 264 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:27.279 medically versed or scientifically as versed as they thought they were, 265 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.319 as to what happens to a decomposing body. So again 266 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:37.119 that actually that's more of when your head gets too big, 267 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:43.440 you make mistakes, and they did. It's just I think, Dan, 268 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:46.559 they were very, very lucky for a long time in 269 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:54.480 that they had such a support network to protect them. 270 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.799 Now you were talking, well, they weren't as well versed 271 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.279 as they might have thought. You give some prime examples. 272 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.279 Again a little bit gory, but hey, that's program. The 273 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:09.359 audience can handle it. You cite an example of them 274 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.160 underestimating their ability to dispose of a body. Just give 275 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.200 us that one example of the body they threw in 276 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:15.559 the water. 277 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:23.880 Well, so they ice picked a fellow gangster. And I'm 278 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.200 gonna throw this out there too. I try to point 279 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.319 out the book though this doesn't make it right, and 280 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:34.160 society did pay for this. I mean, there's always collateral damage. 281 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:39.599 But really a lot of their victims were bad guys too. 282 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:44.160 I just want to point that out. These guys were 283 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.759 often killers too. And one example is Walter Sage. He 284 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.920 was one of their friends, fellow gangster, did bad stuff. 285 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.000 They thought he was skimming. The order came down. Take 286 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.119 this guy out, They take him for a ride, ice 287 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:02.799 pick him I think fifty. Sometimes they tied his body 288 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:08.759 with pieces of metal, throw them in the lake, and 289 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.720 a few days later, or actually it was two weeks later, 290 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.400 people are a tourists are out having fun at the 291 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:20.079 lake and up pops this bloated body in the middle 292 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:23.960 of the lake. It horrified everybody, and the guys didn't 293 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:28.799 understand what happens with a tiny hole that an ice 294 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.799 pick does to a body. It actually ends up sealing 295 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.839 itself up and blows up with the gases, and it 296 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.759 lifted parts of a car engine when that body came 297 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:44.000 to the surface. That's how they did not understand how 298 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.599 that happened. So it just goes to show they were 299 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.039 a little too big for their bridges. To use really 300 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:53.720 old school term. 301 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.079 What we're seeing in this almost one hundred years ago 302 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.599 in nineteen thirties, and anybody it's a big fan like 303 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.119 myself and probably a big part of the audience knows 304 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:09.799 this from watching mob stories. Is that is that how 305 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.039 do these guys really get to be able to do 306 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.880 the kind of hits that they need to get. What 307 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.119 I'm saying is that they really these guys are a 308 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.279 suspicious lot. Like you say, these guys are fellow killers 309 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.319 and men around these guys who are killers, and so 310 00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.599 they're cautious. They know the drill, they know what really 311 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.440 goes on, and yet they're still hit. How does that happen? 312 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:33.640 You know? 313 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:38.359 That's maybe the million dollar question, Dan. I think a 314 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:46.200 lot of these guys were very overconfident period, and even 315 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.880 though you would think you're naturally paranoid and cautious. In 316 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.599 my research and again none of us were there, we 317 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.640 don't know, and just based off in general psychology, it 318 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.319 seems to me they didn't think anything would happen to them. 319 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.880 It's like you walking down the street and just thinking 320 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.799 nothing's gonna happen to you. It's gonna happen that guy 321 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.960 across the street, even when you were part of it. 322 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:14.160 So what happens on top of that? And it's like 323 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.400 what we saw in all the mob movies. Your buddies 324 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.160 are the ones that are going to kill you, and 325 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.559 they're friendly, and of course that fools you too. You 326 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.519 feel that comfort. So that's what they would do. Murder 327 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.319 inc didn't just kill strangers, and they did kill a 328 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.039 lot that you know, they didn't personally know, but they 329 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:35.519 also killed a ton of their own over the years 330 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.680 because there's that comfort level. Like the example Walter Stage, 331 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:41.880 he had no idea. He thought he was going for 332 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.160 a ride like he always does with the same guys. 333 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.319 It's just he had a contract on his head that day. 334 00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:56.079 Yes, Now you talk about the Abe Reelis gang kid twist, 335 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.319 and you also talk about something called the Sullivan it's 336 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.799 a Sullivan law, and tell us about the Sullivan Sullivan 337 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:10.279 law and a Relea skaning and again prosecution trying to 338 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.720 prosecute these guys effectively and put them in prison. 339 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:22.799 Okay, the short version of this. In early thirties, a 340 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:28.119 law was in stated they were tiggyback laws to disorderly conduct. 341 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.319 What they were trying to do is crack down on 342 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:38.279 some organized crime by arresting people in large groups. If 343 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:43.079 they thought if they suspected you or your friends were criminals, 344 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:46.319 they could arrest you all and then figure it out later. 345 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.079 The law came under some scrutiny, of course, because some 346 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:56.039 judges thought, you know, this isn't right. But what the 347 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.400 police thought they could do is grab all of you 348 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:01.880 like they could grab the whole Relis gang, just because 349 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.039 they you know, have heard these guys are bad bring 350 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.119 them in and then try to hold them on vagrancy, 351 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:11.440 which basically means you don't have any money, we can 352 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:14.319 hold you for one hundred days and there's nothing you 353 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.119 can do about it. But what happened that backfire all 354 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.880 the time because these young gangsters had money, they had lawyers, 355 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:27.279 and by then they had impressed people like Lepki and 356 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:31.240 Jacob Shapiro and Luciano. So these guys had a whole 357 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:35.839 network in place of bail. They had houses, they had cars. 358 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:39.559 You couldn't say it was vagrancy. And some judges, even 359 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:43.440 though they knew these guys were bad, their hands were tied. 360 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.000 They said, we can't you can't even use this law. 361 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:51.240 So it was it was a weird time for legal 362 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:54.640 issues as well. I mean, it was quite a dynamic 363 00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.240 that whole time period. There were there were so many 364 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.960 factors that went into how Murder Inc. Act actually existed 365 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:02.640 in thrived for as long as it did. 366 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.799 Now you go on with with the and talk about 367 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.559 Mayor Lansky and in some of his cohorts and Bugsy Seagulls, 368 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.279 So tell us a little bit more about Murder inc. 369 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.519 And how it came to be known as Murder inc. 370 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:29.720 Well, murder Inc. The name was definitely a product of 371 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:35.640 the press, not that it's any different than today in 372 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:41.559 terms of Hey, the most eye catching, outrageous headlines are 373 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.160 what sell you know, the news, that's what they did. 374 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.480 There's definitely been debate over the last century as to 375 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.680 where the name Murder Inc. Really originated, and I addressed 376 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.799 a couple of the you know, theories I found in 377 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:01.400 my research over the years that people had discussed of 378 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.000 who really came up with it, But it was definitely 379 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:09.680 a name that's stuck. Once, you know, the whole case 380 00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:13.640 broke in early nineteen forty, it was quickly dubbed murder Inc. 381 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:19.400 Those guys themselves Dan They referred to that group as 382 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:23.759 the combination that's what they call themselves, were Combination guys. 383 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:29.880 Murder Inc. Again was you know, labeled by the press. 384 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:35.839 Now, you outline a lot of the characters that people 385 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:38.960 have been interested in mob stories would know, of course, 386 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:43.839 like Prel's Lucky Luciano and and Lewis Lepki, Blue Calter 387 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.720 at Mary Lansky. But you do have quite a bit 388 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.480 of information on the you know, the striking characters that 389 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.039 are the gangbusters as you call them. John Harlan Amon, 390 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:04.559 Thomas Dewey, William Dickleman, all Burton Turkis so talk especially 391 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:10.680 about William O'Dwyer and Thomas Dewey, both district attorneys. Tell 392 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:14.160 us a little bit about Thomas Dewey first introduced this character. 393 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:22.480 Well, Dewey was definitely a politician or he he had aspirations. 394 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:33.240 He saw his future by taking down New York's crime lords, 395 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:36.720 and he went after the big fish. He went after Bouchalter, 396 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.559 he went after dutch Schultz, he went after Luciano, and 397 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:44.680 he was quite successful on a lot of those levels, 398 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.680 and it made a name for him. He was he 399 00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:55.880 was basically a celebrity. And then William O'Dwyer he came 400 00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:02.839 in as the DA for Brooklyn and he started going 401 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.400