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Speaker 1: Welcome to the crime page of bid and he doesn't podcast.

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I'm here with David Keller, West Texas historian and archaeologist,

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and we're going to talk about a couple things pertinent

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not just to West Texas but to the entire state.

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So David Keller, Hello, introduce yourself.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much. Joy. Yeah. So I live

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in Alpine in Redford. So I've been in the Big

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Ben region for more than twenty years. Did archaeology to

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the Center for Big Ben's Studies for a lot of

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that time Big projects and Big Ben National Park and

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on private ranches across the region, also state park lands,

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and then over the course of years, ended up writing

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a few books on regional history and then kind of

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got into some historic preservation. So I do a lot

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of Adobe consulting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, tell everybody about Center for Big Ben's Studies. What

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is it? It's associated with the College was seul it is.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a pseudo department. I think it's trying

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to become more of a department. But it was started

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in the eighties by a fellow that wanted to basically

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become a clearinghouse for history and archaeology indist cultural studies

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across the region earl Elm, and then over time it

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basically was passed on to Bob Maloof, who became the

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director shortly before I came on, and he was the

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state archaeologist for years, and so the center's focus shifted

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to primarily archaeology. They've always done publishing, so they have

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a newsletter, they have regular journals that they put out,

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and then occasional papers. And Bob, when he was director,

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had a program, a larger program that was partly devised

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as a fundraising mechanism, but it also parsed out different

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research areas that the center was active in. At that time,

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soul Ross offered an undergraduate degree in anthropology, and so

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we did teach some classes, but there was never a major, and.

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Speaker 1: They don't do that anymore.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think that at this point they

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are trying to develop it into a major, and so

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we'll see how that goes. You know, I'm not with

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sol Ross anymore. A year and a half moved on

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and so now I work for myself. It's Keller Consulting.

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They'll see so do the same things, but I just

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don't have to report to work anymore.

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Speaker 1: So archaeos but it's all archaeology basically.

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Speaker 2: Mostly, although you know, what I get hired to do

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mostly in the recent year and a half has been

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historical preservation consulting, so either private people with you know,

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who have bought a house that's an adobe or rock

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or whatever they wanted some idea of what to do

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with it, some guidance, but also do workshops. We did

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one at Fort Leeton about a year ago for Texas

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Parks and Wildlife staff, and then we did we're doing

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another one. We did one last year at Fort Davis.

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We're doing it again in October at Fort Davis for

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mostly for National Park staff.

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Speaker 1: So what tell me about tell us about the human

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history of the region, Like what is I guess, how

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long have people been here starting with indigenous people and

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then when like Anglo settlement mostly happened when like eighteen

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hundreds eighteen eighties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. So you know, so we the

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full sweep of human occupation is is pretty much represented

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here for the most part. We'll say back to Clovis periods,

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so twelve thousand years yeah, more or less. We know

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now that there were people here much earlier. We don't

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know exactly keeps getting pushed back, right, I mean across

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North America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, years, twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Some people said there's been some some sites where they've

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found evidence I think as early as thirty five, but

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those contexts were questionable. Yeah, so those that's the you know,

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books still out. Jury's still out on that one. So

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we're continuing to learn more. But we know that people

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were here in the Big Ben region by at least

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twelve thousand years ago. The thing is that a lot

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of those early early sites we suspect were washed away

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during flood events, probably during the Alta thermal which was

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a hot, dry period, and so a lot of them

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were just erased. And so finding an intact paleo Indian

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side is difficult. We have a little bit better idea

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now kind of places that we might look to do that,

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but it's been historically difficult. And so the two sort

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of flagship paleo sites in the region were the day

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Charles Kelly's site and Big Ban National Park and the

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Chisos and then the Genevieve Likes Duncan site on the

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O two ranch. Where is that on the O two

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it's south of the Paisano Plateau. So if you're going

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south on one eighteen, it's just off to the right,

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it's the big expanse. Once you drop off the where

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one eighteen Highway one eighteen runs out of Alpine south

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towards Big Ben.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so you go through Turilingua, but between Alpine and

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Urilingua you pass Elephant Mountain. And then once you pass

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Elephant Mountain you get into a large flat desert expanse

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and that is pretty much the O two Ranch on

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both sides. And that's what elevation. That's lower elevation, it's

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lower elevation. It's mostly desert scrub country. They have a

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little bit of higher stuff along the edge of the

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flank of the escarpment, but most of its little desert scrub.

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Speaker 1: So the people who were living there back then, I

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mean there's not even is there a name for the

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culture or what is the.

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Speaker 2: Well, we pretty much sub divide cultures prehistorically. Of course,

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they didn't have we don't know, tribal names that they

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what they called themselves back in those days. So we

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refer to them in really broad terms like Paleo Indian

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or Early Archaic or Middle Archaic people late archic, late prehistoric,

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and these are just time periods subdivisions within that do

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exist in certain you know context, but they're often defined

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by technology. So point styles Clovis point versus a fulsome

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point versus the late Paleo indies.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty reliable.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, it is because those have been proven in dated contacts,

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meaning they were dated after carbon fourteen.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy. So just making an arrow point in this

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certain shape, it was right. Yeah, if I had a

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friend of mine, he's a long distance hiker, he was.

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He goes in Death Valley all the time, and he

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goes in these fucking mountains where like no one's probably

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been in a few centuries. And he's a tall, lanky guy.

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Just you know, fucking blows my mind. And he found

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a clothes point on the middle. He's found a bunch

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of new plant species doing that too, like just you know,

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rare plants with narrow distributions that aren't known to science yet. Yeah,

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he just found a member of asta racy that that

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is like that. But he find a Clovis point somewhere.

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He doesn't take the ship either, which I think is cool.

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It takes a photo. GPS points that and puts it

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back there, because that's always it's a whack and people

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take it a little much like put in your mantle.

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Speaker 2: Now, well, when you think about it deeply, you know

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it's clear that the right thing to do is to

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leave it there, and he did the right thing. That's

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the right thing. Take a picture, take a GPS location,

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leave it where it's where it is. You know, honestly

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as a scientist, as an archaeologist, if I had my drothers,

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that's what we would do. Also, we would leave the

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artifacts in place. Uh. The reason so we don't depends

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on the research design, but usually it's because we want

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to do some in house analysis. The other reason, main reason,

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compelling reason, i should say, is when the artifacts are

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at risk of being collected.

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Speaker 1: Well, at least if you're taking if sciences are thinking

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that they're studying it, there's data collect there's something, it

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can be returned to the site. But if some jackass

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is just going to take it and put on his

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fucking man, it's like, man, fuck you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a significant difference. You know, we try to

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be understanding because everybody in their dog back in the

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day and even now, you know, artifact collecting was, you know,

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a state pastime. I mean even as a kid, that's

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one of the things.

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Speaker 1: I did that happened. It's spiritized criminal. That's insane, right right, Yeah,

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people just having straight up mummies in their homes. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that site was one of a number of sites

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across the state which served for a while functioned as

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a while as a pay to dig You would pay

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money to go up there and dig in a rock shelter.

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And of course rock shelters, unlike open sites, which are

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pretty ubiquitous across the region, rock shelters are very significant because,

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for one thing, you have a very focused, intensive occupation

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inside those spaces, right, That's one thing. The second thing

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is that that rock shelters afford a level of preservation

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that we do not get on open sites. So perishables

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are able to you know, to remain intact for very

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long periods of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was touching thirty thousand year old sloth ship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, spirit eye.

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Speaker 1: That was crazy. That was nuts, man, exactly. I'm glad

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I was able to get in there too. I think

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if the dude would have known who I was, maybe

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would have saidn't though, But anyway, yeah, yeah, So anyway, okay,

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so we okay, so that's a pretty reliable system of

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dating is the points, and there's Clovis points from this

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area that have been recovered.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there have been, there have been you know, they're

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mostly fragmentary, but we have we have a few and

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mostly what we found what what the archaeology suggests that

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there was very very light occupation during that period, that

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the real human occupation sort of across the region didn't

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start to happen in an in you know, we're in

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place sort of adaptations started to happen until the late

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Paleoed period. So we're talking to maybe you know, eleven

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thousand years ago to about eighty five hundred years ago

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something like that.

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Speaker 1: What was the climate like here?

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Speaker 2: Very very much wetter, you know, so we're at the

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tail end of the Pleistocene, right. You know, the lower

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elevations would have had the pinions juniper that now have scrub,

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mesquite and creosot, that's one example. At the higher elevations

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you would have had you know, aspen and much more messic.

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Speaker 1: Madrones, the drones two madrones out in Picos County, Man

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just growing in this little wash. I was like this

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shouldn't be here.

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Speaker 2: This is crazy, right, So you know you do still

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find examples of relics.

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Speaker 1: Old they were big drones.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I relict, I relict, you know, species, I relict individual.

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Speaker 1: Do you see many of those? Many madrones are like

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around here and no in.

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Speaker 2: The hills No, no, no there, I mean if you

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crawl into canyons you'll see them.

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Speaker 1: Are there with drones in Big Bend in the Chiefs, Yeah,

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there are. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And there's some just right outside of Alpine too that

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I've I saw just a couple of weeks ago. So

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it can't Miter Peak, which which if you can go

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out there with a reservation, it's it's managed by the

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Girl Scouts of America, but it's kind of a little

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known and underutilized resources. It's north of town, well north

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west of town. It's right by Miter Peak.

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Speaker 1: It gets some seeds.

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Speaker 2: Man, it's beautiful out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So they have big madrones in that in that canyon

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up there, and there's a it's a naha and flowing water.

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So it's it's a it's tell everybody it's not. It's

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basically a natural uhank tank. Yeah, natural bowl that's typically

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in the rock in the bottom of a wash or

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maybe a solution cavity in limestone somewhere else. But basically

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it just allows water to accumulate holes water just like

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a bowl wood, whereas for a long periods of time

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after a rain, whereas you know, everywhere else, it washes

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off or soaks in. So where we have it's a

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naha sort of bearing bedrock. It's They're very significant for

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wildlife and they most likely almost certainly were prehistorically for

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people to as water resources.

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Speaker 1: So the I guess the people were living here, like

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eleven dousand, any idea what they were doing. Was it

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mostly just hunt their gather. Was there any kind of

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like cultivation anything.

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Speaker 2: Like that, Nothing that we've we know about. Of course,

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you know, agriculture came relatively late, but they were all

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hunter gatherers, and for the full sweep of human history

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in the Big Bend and as is most across most

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of the state of Texas, hunter gather was the predominant adaptation.

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In fact, farming in this region was the anomaly, and

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it happened very late. It happened in a very abbreviated fashion,

238
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and we can't really even call those people necessarily agriculturalists

239
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because they were they were probably so part time that

240
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it was it was kind of hinging on that on

241
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that border. Those are still open questions, a lot of

242
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research yet to be done down in that area. And

243
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that's what I'm talking about, is the area around Forsiitio Redford.

244
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Those are what we call the La Junta district culturally speaking,

245
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and that was the kind of southeasternmost extension of put

246
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blowing culture in the Americas. But what they were doing there,

247
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the majority of research happened in the nineteen thirties and

248
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forties and there's been very little since and so we

249
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have a lot of open questions and in fact, so

250
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I'm hoping that more research will get done in the

251
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near future. There's a lot of questions we have yet

252
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to answer.

253
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Speaker 1: So it was still it was still dry, but it

254
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was wetter than it is now, and it was certainly

255
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the water table was a lot higher, and there were

256
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probably still like flowing springs.

257
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Speaker 2: Yess, absolutely springs where they do not exist now. And

258
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that's pretty much true throughout most of prehistory, with one

259
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,360
major exception, and that was what we call the Alta

260
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thermal which was about from eighty five to around forty

261
00:13:56,919 --> 00:13:59,159
five hundred years ago, a very long period of time

262
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four thousand years where it was, it got increasingly hotter

263
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,559
and drier, probably even hotter and drier than it is today.

264
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And during that period there was a massive landscape changes,

265
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not just in the vegetation but also in because of erosion.

266
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Patterns changed, and so a lot of these higher landforms

267
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that had hosted a lot of vegetation and was able

268
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to develop soil when the alta thermal came and those

269
00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:31,879
plants died away and you get you know, massive flood events.

270
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All that settlement washed from those higher landforms down into

271
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lower valleys and redeposited, and in some cases those areas

272
00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:45,679
became pretty stable landforms over time, and they were used

273
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by prehistoric people as living surfaces. But yeah, so that

274
00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:56,639
period of time was very different from today. But then

275
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,120
it started to revert back too much, way better wetter periods,

276
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And we've had a couple of pulses throughout time where

277
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it was significantly wetter and cooler than today.

278
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Speaker 1: Most of the moisture was coming from where the south

279
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or the east, or where from do you know.

280
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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not really not sure. The weather patterns

281
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,840
probably were different, slightly different than today. You know. Now

282
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we're in a monsoonal pattern, and I think, you know,

283
00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:27,240
there are probably times in the past when maybe that

284
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wasn't the predominant weather pattern in terms of rainfall in

285
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this region, that it was more spread out across the seasons.

286
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The monsoonal pattern basically is where a high you know,

287
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,919
a zone of high pressure is generally moves it migrates northward,

288
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allowing this region to sort of open up to moisture.

289
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,360
It comes from the south, primarily a lot of its

290
00:15:53,399 --> 00:15:57,039
remnants from powerful hurricanes. They enter into Mexico and kind

291
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,519
of get funneled up through here. So bigger canes are

292
00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:02,919
often really good news for this region because when we

293
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,960
get remnants of that, it really that's when we get

294
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,559
really good region wide rains. Otherwise they tend to be

295
00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:12,720
very very localized.

296
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,639
Speaker 1: How long What was the megafauna like back then? I mean,

297
00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:17,879
when did it really go out ten thousand years ago?

298
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,919
Was it last a little bit longer or what?

299
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, more of that. You know, during the late Plastocene,

300
00:16:24,559 --> 00:16:27,000
we started to lose a lot of these large mammals,

301
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:33,840
you know, the willy mammoths, the giant bison, giant groundsloss sabertoothcats,

302
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,360
those kinds of things started to die out in succession,

303
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,000
and there's courts on a long debate about whether that

304
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,799
was human caused or whether it was environment, or whether

305
00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:45,559
it was the interplay of both. Yeah, and most people

306
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,120
think that that was really an interplay of both. But

307
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:54,080
the argument for humans being a significant factor in there

308
00:16:54,679 --> 00:16:58,440
has really been bolstered, I guess in recent years. It's

309
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,000
hard to deny that our culpability in that, yeah, man,

310
00:17:02,679 --> 00:17:05,319
And that that really opens up a really doubtable, much

311
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,880
bigger conversation because you know, we've we've for many years

312
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,160
looked towards Native Americans as sort of being the you know,

313
00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:16,640
sort of the guiding light for conservation.

314
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's somehow different from every other species of human primate,

315
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,039
which I don't mean they were, and I think I

316
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:25,960
think that's true to an extent, But I think they weren't.

317
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,559
I think only with certain cultures obviously, And I think

318
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:32,039
it was something that was learned, Like they probably learned

319
00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:35,400
from having catastrophic events that faced them and being like,

320
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,920
we got to get our ship together because the way

321
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,559
we're living isn't gonna work, which we would be good

322
00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:42,480
to do, but especially like the way the American left

323
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,319
has embraced identitarianism and all this stupid you know, And

324
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,279
I get it to an extent, because there's certainly a

325
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,079
social context for oppression that's been there, but then conflating

326
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,680
that with like, oh, because you're this, you're automatically going

327
00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:57,759
to know, because you're Native American, you're automatically going to

328
00:17:57,839 --> 00:17:59,640
know how to steward the land, and all this corny

329
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,640
shit can get the fuck out of here. I'm sorry.

330
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,599
There's there's, you know, pros and cons to both cultures.

331
00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:11,559
There's probably a lot of I'm always criticizing Anglo culture especially,

332
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,079
but yeah, I just don't buy that class draft. And

333
00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:16,559
it's funny too because I pointed that out, like, well,

334
00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:18,599
you know, like the MAJORI got the New Zealand and

335
00:18:18,599 --> 00:18:20,880
the most one extinct one hundred and two hundred years later,

336
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,400
and some people are just like and none of them

337
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,079
have any background in natural sciences of course to ever

338
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,799
say this, but some people are just like, no, that's

339
00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:30,160
not true. That never happened. I'm like, wow, I'm fucking sorry,

340
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000
but it looks like it did. Yeah, you know, we're humans,

341
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:35,720
a human that's what we do you know it's It

342
00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:38,839
doesn't mean we automatically have this enlightened state and self

343
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,880
awareness about our place in the ecosystem just because you're.

344
00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 2: One, you know, melon, and we're just like any other

345
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,200
animal on this planet, organism on this planet is it's

346
00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:50,960
it's you know, our intentions to reproduce and our and

347
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,640
our goals are largely self interest. You know. That's just how.

348
00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:56,799
Speaker 1: Funny to me how that stuff like triggers some people.

349
00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,119
It's like, look, man, this is probably what happened. I'm sorry,

350
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:00,799
Like this is what Well.

351
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,279
Speaker 2: You know, those a lot of myths die hard, and

352
00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:04,240
that's that's one of them that a lot of us

353
00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:06,319
want to hang on to because we like it. It's

354
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,480
very convenient. Uh and and you know, there's there's some

355
00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:11,960
merit to it. There's a lot of merit to it.

356
00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:14,599
We could we could go you know into that, but

357
00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:16,440
but the fact is that humans have been hard on

358
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,319
the planet for a very long Well.

359
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: There's merit that comparing different cultures.

360
00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, and a lot of that revolves around their

361
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,279
belief systems, right, so you compare and contrast you know,

362
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,319
Judeo Christian tradition to Native American you know, any number

363
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,119
of Native American religions, and there are some really start yeah,

364
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,240
stark differences. Uh. You know, when you get away from

365
00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:41,839
sort of this idea of monotheism and you get away

366
00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:44,480
from this idea that humans were created in the image

367
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,759
of God, then it's you're looking at a very different lands.

368
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 1: I think it's yeah, and I think it's what caused

369
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:57,680
those societies in Europe before they even cross the ocean,

370
00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:01,519
they ex terminate all their nature you're worshiping people or

371
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,440
you know, pagan whatever, and then and then start turning

372
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,759
the whole society into this feudal stay where everything was

373
00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:12,720
controlled by a small minority, kind of similar we have today,

374
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,119
and everyone else was just a surf and a peon.

375
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,799
And then you know, more of that fuckery. And then

376
00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:20,319
what we see that came over the ocean was the

377
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,759
result of a few centuries of that, you know, but

378
00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:25,519
it's still like in the grand context of human history,

379
00:20:25,559 --> 00:20:27,680
that's still a small amount of time. Like there was,

380
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,400
you know, and I'm sure this ship has been going on,

381
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,240
like mass killings and tribalism and all this ship and

382
00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:37,000
fighting over dumb ship, and it's been going on for

383
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:39,839
thousands of years, like history is littered with mass graves, man,

384
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,400
and we were signs of you look at chimps and

385
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,319
that's what they do too. They're fucking nuts, you know,

386
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,839
they're like, it's crazy. The bonobos are different, but we didn't.

387
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,240
We didn't get too much of that. Yeah, that's similarity there.

388
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,200
I wish we did. But but anyway, but but yeah,

389
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,519
the MegaFon of thing is just so crazy to me

390
00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:04,559
because it's like these things were here so recently and

391
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:07,319
now they're gone. And like the plants, I deal with

392
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,720
plants all the time that bear bear the scars, the

393
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,079
evolutionary scars, if you want to call them that, of

394
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,200
having evolved with these things. Like when I was in

395
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,000
the Dominican Republic, I was seeing that. You know, you

396
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:20,160
see these palms that produce these eight inch long spines

397
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,599
on them, and you're like, man, what the hell? You know,

398
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,200
like there's nothing here today like this didn't evolve for

399
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,200
a goat, you know, or like any of the small

400
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:30,799
deer like creatures like this was for a ground sloth.

401
00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:35,039
There's something bigger that's gone though. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah,

402
00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:36,640
that's wild man. Same thing with like some of the

403
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,759
cac din Chile and some of the columniar cac Dian

404
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:42,319
Chile air like brown Nina. It just gets these foot

405
00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:44,720
long spines and then they stop being produced at like

406
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,359
nine feet, which is like the height that a ground

407
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,640
sloth could probably reach. Ye, yeah, it's cool, it's cool.

408
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,039
It's cool stuff to think about. But in West Texas especially,

409
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:59,000
it's yeah, the and the Are there any uh pac

410
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:00,240
ret midden that.

411
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 2: Have been investigated in the region.

412
00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: Yes, well, yeah, like in West Texas, Yeah.

413
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 2: There are. And that's that's how you know, that's a

414
00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:10,039
lot of that's why we know a little bit about

415
00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:16,000
the natural environment in the past because of packrat midden studies.

416
00:22:16,759 --> 00:22:19,960
There were some really significant ones that were done from

417
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,720
packrat middens collected around Real Grand Village. Uh, And but

418
00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,960
there's been a number of others and so by virtue

419
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,279
of those packrat middens, which of course contained can contain

420
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,519
very very old vegetation, uh, we're able to sort of

421
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,799
reconstruct uh you know, vegetative history.

422
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, what have they found, I mean, what what.

423
00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:45,079
Speaker 2: Have Well, basically one thing that they found is that

424
00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:49,039
that that the the Real Grand Village area was kind

425
00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:54,000
of a refugium for desert vegetation during during the wetter

426
00:22:54,279 --> 00:22:58,960
pulses that some of the like cacti and and maybe

427
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,200
kreosote bush things like that sort of hunkered down in

428
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,359
that area were still pretty hot and dry and spread

429
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,240
out from there as conditions started to dry out and

430
00:23:09,559 --> 00:23:12,880
get hotter. But we also know, of course from other

431
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,759
middens that that, like I said, the vegetation that we

432
00:23:16,839 --> 00:23:20,480
find now thousands of feet higher in elevation, we're down

433
00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:22,440
in the land flaws, right.

434
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: So it's you can kind of I mean, I guess

435
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,359
what trying to imagine what would look like, you would

436
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,279
kind of imagine it more of like an Edwards Plateau. Yes,

437
00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:33,039
I think some more like the Edwards Plateau Big Bend Desert.

438
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 2: And maybe some areas that were more savannah like. And

439
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,680
it probably also depended on how much, you know, fire

440
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,319
ecology played into the you know, into the local was fire.

441
00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: Was fire a part of the landscape here?

442
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely? You don't think that, but yeah it was, you know,

443
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,000
you because now there's very few parts of the desert

444
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,720
that can even carry fire. But what we found is that, yeah,

445
00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:59,759
a lot of significant portions of the desert burned on

446
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,640
about twenty year intervals, and.

447
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: So it must have been woodland then, damn well.

448
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:08,079
Speaker 2: And grasslands. Yeah, yeah, so those grasslands would have burned too,

449
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,519
and some of those were a lot of them are

450
00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:14,240
of course natural lightning cause fires, but there were also

451
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:18,039
a lot of anthropogenic fire back in the day. We

452
00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:20,160
don't have direct evidence of that here, but we know

453
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,440
it was widespread practice and sure, so we're certain that

454
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,039
that happened.

455
00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:26,039
Speaker 1: That's crazy, but that's so cool.

456
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, fire managed landscape.

457
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: Was what about how important was let your gia a

458
00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:34,599
gob because that's a that's a huge food source. Once

459
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,359
you get very significant spiny leaf blades.

460
00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: You got this massive heart of so agave is you know,

461
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:45,119
generally we're just a really important food source prehistorically. Uh.

462
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,440
And they were harvested and cooked in underground earth ovens

463
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,680
for twenty four to forty eight hours to render them

464
00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:56,000
edible and then so they would dig them up and

465
00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:59,759
then they could eat them as is, or typically what

466
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:02,359
they'd did is made them into cakes and they dry

467
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,640
them out and they could be stored.

468
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: They're so sweet. Do you ever eat like roasted a

469
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,440
g that's been Oh my.

470
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: God, it's crazy, really sweet and sugar exactly, And so

471
00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:16,400
one of the things that that we've that archaeologists have

472
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,039
been interested in more recent years with a lot of

473
00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:22,960
research into earth ovens and burner rock middens, is that

474
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,200
the suspicion is that a lot of these uh agaves

475
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,599
that were being processed were actually ultimately intended for fermented beverages.

476
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,319
Oh really, yeah, that this that they were going to

477
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,720
be made into fermented drink.

478
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: What what makes them think that?

479
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: Well? Uh, it it relates to evidence that we found

480
00:25:46,079 --> 00:25:50,400
in areas like paku May Consas Grandes, where that was

481
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,960
part of a much bigger trade network. But there at

482
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,440
pacu May, we've they found earth ovens and very specific

483
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,119
processing areas where they were clearly furmenting agave and making

484
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,000
beer just in pots and yeah and in vats.

485
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:06,599
Speaker 1: Wow.

486
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: So they've found that it was like a polk then, right, yeah,

487
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,200
kind of like a poolque uh There's they've other areas

488
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,960
like around the pueblos around Elpaso, they've found evidence of

489
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:23,680
jars that have corrosion on the inside. They're pitted, and

490
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,359
they they believe that a lot of that pitting was

491
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:33,279
caused from the acidity of the fermentation process. So there's

492
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,559
been increasing evidence to support that idea. Now, I think

493
00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:41,839
that that was probably limited to areas where there was

494
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,079
more of a poll blowing presence, where there were you know,

495
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,960
larger aggregations of people and pottery. Also, we didn't have

496
00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:51,200
that here except down at La Junta and there in

497
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,279
an abbreviated way. So we have no evidence for that here.

498
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,359
But we definitely have evidence of agave processing. So let's

499
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,279
sget inother agaves were roasted in these pits that made

500
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,160
that were basically earth ovens subterranean pressure cookers, if you will.

501
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,880
That leave a very pronounced uh, you know, feature on

502
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,200
the landscape.

503
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,079
Speaker 1: That stays for a while.

504
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: It stays for They're very very persistent because they're made

505
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,759
of rock. And if the if the oven was reused

506
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,759
over many, many many years, or it was used very

507
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:26,319
intensively in one episode, or was years used over one

508
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,400
hundreds or even thousands of years, you find accumulations of

509
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,400
burned rock around them that can be a meter two

510
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,599
meters high.

511
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: Especially when a rock splits from being heated.

512
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: Exactly it is, yeah, And what would happen is they

513
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,279
would reuse rocks when they could, but rocks when they

514
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,559
were fired would break into smaller and smaller pieces. They

515
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:47,640
would lose their density and they were lose their ability

516
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,960
to hold heat, and so those were discarded. And as

517
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,359
those were discarded, they were just thrown out of the pit,

518
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,839
and over time those accumulated into huge mountains that we

519
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,160
call burned rock middens. And so you find those in

520
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,160
certain parts of the Big Bend. They're not as common

521
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,039
here as other parts, but central Texas.

522
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,319
Speaker 1: They kind of expected where you will find them, like, oh,

523
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,680
this looks like an ideal spot. It's got this certain

524
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:11,119
carve out in the landscape. This makes sense that this

525
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,599
would be.

526
00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: A yeah, if you know where to look.

527
00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: You know, I remember going when I went to someone

528
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,680
with someone to spirit I Cave. I remember we stopped

529
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,559
at a spot where there was one of those little

530
00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:25,079
midden areas and yeah, there were burned scars everywhere. Have

531
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,359
you you been to spirit I Cave for right? Yeah?

532
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,160
Is that what's the story with that? That was the

533
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,519
place was getting looted in the fifties by people that

534
00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:34,400
were just start just come paid a dig and you

535
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,599
can take whatever you find.

536
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it was and that's that's been the case,

537
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,000
you know, across across the state and elsewhere. Private land

538
00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:44,480
is you know, those resources are not protected and so

539
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,839
ranchers can do anything they want. And in this case,

540
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,119
that rancher chose to open it up as a pay

541
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,799
to dig so people would.

542
00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:56,519
Speaker 1: Come in because he owned the land and everything the land.

543
00:28:56,839 --> 00:28:58,839
Speaker 2: And that's that's the thing. So if you own it,

544
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,079
you can you can choose to uh to do that,

545
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,279
and that that's what happened, and so a lot of

546
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:09,640
the significant archaeological resources were taken out of that before

547
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,759
scientists ever got a chance at it.

548
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: That's so fucking crazy.

549
00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, especially considering that they were taking mummies out,

550
00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:23,119
taking the two bodies out, dead dead people. You know

551
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,480
that we had been interred there in a very respectful

552
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,680
ceremonial way, and then these yahoo's are digging them up

553
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,319
and putting them on display in their living room. Of

554
00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:34,799
course they end up in the closet and then they

555
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:36,359
don't want to admit that they have it because it

556
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:36,920
gets sticky.

557
00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: That's what happened, right there was one of those we're

558
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,440
both tracked down, both of the mummies that were in there.

559
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:44,119
Speaker 2: I think one of them was tracked down. The other

560
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,599
one's still out. We think they know where it probably is.

561
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,200
But the guy who Uh. You know, I think part

562
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,599
of it might just be embarrassment and having had it

563
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:57,359
in the first place.

564
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's well, the people who collected are dead obviously, right,

565
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:04,839
Like they've got to be long they've got to be

566
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,680
long dead. This was or maybe not.

567
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: I don't well, I think yeah, no, I think that that.

568
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,759
You know, some of them are still living. But even

569
00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,000
if they're not, you know, their descendants may have you know,

570
00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:17,640
inherited supposed to. I think. So if you've got a

571
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,039
dead body, it's good to get rid of it as

572
00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:19,839
soon as possible.

573
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,519
Speaker 1: Move. Yeah, that's a dick move.

574
00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:24,319
Speaker 2: You know. The right thing to do is you know.

575
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:27,720
Ever since NACPRA, Uh, it's it's become kind of mandated

576
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,720
and legislated to uh to address burials in a certain way.

577
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:37,160
So tribal consultation is a big thing. Uh, and uh,

578
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,880
it's become more of an issue. I don't like to

579
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,759
mess with burials personally. There's an incredible amount of data

580
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,000
that you can get from them. It's really useful, but

581
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:53,359
it's such a sticky mess. And it also it's you know,

582
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,559
there's an issue of respect that I prefer not to.

583
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:57,799
Speaker 1: Uh.

584
00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: You know, if I'm given given the option. And I'm

585
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,039
also very good friends with a Native American man who's

586
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,799
kind of sole purpose in life. His stated purpose in life,

587
00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:13,000
and his goal is to basically reinter a lot of

588
00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:15,880
these bodies that were taken. He wants to put them

589
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,240
back in a respectful way.

590
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: I think that stuff is worth studying, and it would

591
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,640
probably the information you collect would probably be really appreciated

592
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,839
by many modern data sentence. But if you're going to

593
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,960
do that, I think you need to have someone who's

594
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,039
a modern data sentate or you know which they can

595
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:33,720
look at haplotypes and all that stuff figure out how,

596
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:35,400
but you've got to have someone there to, you know,

597
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,319
do It'd be the same thing if you're like digging

598
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:40,480
up a stiff at a like a Catholic senate theory.

599
00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:42,240
You know, I'm sure they have the priests go out

600
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,839
and they do whatever. You know, it's just protocols, Yeah,

601
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,680
the protocols, not just like, oh look at where we're fine,

602
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,599
you know. Yeah, that's crazy though. Yeah. When what's his face?

603
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,640
Told me about that that that mummified corpse in someone's closet,

604
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,359
I was just like, I was just like it was

605
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:02,079
one of those moments was like only in fucking Texas, man, Like,

606
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:07,240
that's just totally fine, Like whatever, you know, big crazy man,

607
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,400
that's crazy. Are they ever going to get that back?

608
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,839
You think? Or is the or is that lady like no,

609
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:12,400
it's mine?

610
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I mean I think I think

611
00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:18,519
the one hold out it. Maybe they're claiming they don't

612
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:20,960
have it. Oh that was the last I heard, and

613
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,000
I have not kept up with this, so it's it's

614
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,079
an ongoing thing that you know, there's other people that

615
00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:26,920
probably could.

616
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: Dude saw it and collected a tooth like they know

617
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:31,119
maybe well.

618
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: That was one that was at the at a museum

619
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:35,160
I think up in Pecason. Oh yeah, he did, he

620
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,480
did do that, and that was you know, a lot

621
00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:42,759
of people I guess took exception to that because maybe

622
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:44,599
there was there were different there could have been a

623
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,240
different way of going about that.

624
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was. What was interesting though, is that

625
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:51,160
because of that they were able to get DNA right

626
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,240
and we went out there there was a modern day descendant,

627
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,319
this gentleman from ol Pastor Yeah, friend, yeah, totally, yeah,

628
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,599
he came out with us and it was uh he

629
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,720
was that was like his relative from ten Thoutary six

630
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,160
not amazing. Yeah, that's crazy.

631
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,079
Speaker 2: He's a direct to send it.

632
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: That's so cool. And so yeah, I said, he asked

633
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,279
for photos I took, So I sent them a bunch

634
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:14,680
of photos and stuff and yeah, he was like, it's cool.

635
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,680
How you like all the plants here? And I was like, yeah,

636
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,119
that's all I It's like all I focused on. Man. Yeah. Yeah,

637
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,400
but yeah, man, that's a special place. What is uh,

638
00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:26,480
but it's being taken care of, like at least the

639
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,519
landowner is taking decent care of that.

640
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

641
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's very respectful the modern landowner. Yeah.

642
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's really good.

643
00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:36,519
Speaker 1: Uh.

644
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: There's yeah really no extractive industry going on there. And

645
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,599
he's certainly very in touch with the archaeology there.

646
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

647
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: And he's not only you know, protecting it, he's very

648
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:51,400
been very active in its discovery because he discovered hundreds

649
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,519
of sites out there on his own. Oh really, yeah,

650
00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:57,000
him and his and his ranch helper discovered a lot

651
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,440
of the sites because it's just became a passion of his.

652
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:02,160
He's over the years.

653
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: Who owned it before and what was it? Was it

654
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:05,279
cattle or what were they doing out there?

655
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:08,039
Speaker 2: Cattle, sheep and goats And there were multiple owners. But

656
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,360
you know, Donald Judd was one of them.

657
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: See that is insane to me, Like, why would you

658
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,280
try to graze cattle out in the desert man.

659
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: Because it's cheap land and you can.

660
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: It's just you're gonna fuck the land into a commas.

661
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,559
Speaker 2: I don't care. There's nothing well, I mean, you know,

662
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,559
it's uh, there's multiple reasons why. But I mean maybe

663
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,679
because you just don't have the option of doing anything

664
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,719
else you are poor, or it's you don't care about

665
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,440
the land, especially when you're leasing it and it's not

666
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,280
even your own asset. I mean, typically the story has

667
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,440
been that if that land is not watched carefully or

668
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,519
you don't have a specific lease agreement, they're gonna overgraze it.

669
00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:46,159
It's just gonna happen. It certainly happened in Pensil Canyon.

670
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,679
We still see the evidence of that. I mean it's everywhere.

671
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,800
The evidence of what cattle grazing has done to this

672
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,599
region is very evident to anybody who has a cursory

673
00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:02,440
understanding of of a biology of plants, you know, of

674
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,280
how the landscape's supposed to look.

675
00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:07,159
Speaker 1: What is cool, at least is that I don't see

676
00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:09,719
any of the nasty invasive grasses we have down in

677
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,760
South Texas. It's like buffalo grass or grass we have it.

678
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 2: Oh, buffal grass is a big problem.

679
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: I've never seen it here. Well it's frost tolerant though.

680
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:20,559
Speaker 2: No it's not. So it's the main problems we have

681
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,039
with it or down on the river corridor where you

682
00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:25,159
can't get rid of it. It's just like you know,

683
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,079
giant cain. Now, Tamarisk is another story. Now that's an

684
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:31,960
interesting little success story is still ongoing. You know, the

685
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,199
beetle release has been extremely effective and I don't know

686
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,039
how many. I don't know a bio control. Uh, there

687
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:44,159
was some released years ago around Candelar area, and I

688
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:46,719
don't know how many more releases there were there were

689
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:53,280
after that, but that the beetle has has become almost

690
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,559
region wide down there, and so now.

691
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: It was invasive too, but it only bothers tamar.

692
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,039
Speaker 2: That's the supposition. We hope that the case. But right now,

693
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,840
so there are at tamarisk dying down around Redford now,

694
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,400
like there's a big die off happening and so it's

695
00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:13,199
very visually evident. So it's really changing things great, which

696
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,079
is good, you know, you think, but then also there's

697
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:19,079
other invasives that that are just taken right over, you know,

698
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,519
or others they're just increases. You know.

699
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: There's so many wonderful native grasses here though, it's crazy,

700
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,119
like the boutry of cloas and they all show up

701
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,480
or like just they're still volunteering. Yeah, they're cool. That's

702
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,800
cool to see. It is cool to see tons of

703
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,400
buda lua and yeah, just fucking really dope grasses. Yeah, yeah, Well,

704
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,400
I think that's a good segue into the public versus

705
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,079
private land issue, which I wanted to talk to you about,

706
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,639
because ninety six percent of the state is private land,

707
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,719
I think, and you know, you talk about this. I

708
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,679
made a post on this on social media, and I

709
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:57,320
got this. I felt like the same, like fucking dim

710
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,719
wit was common thing on everyone because you go to

711
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,639
the pay as just an Anglo dude, you know, double

712
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:05,239
digit IQ pictures all the same. It's like these guys

713
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,960
were all the same clone of each other, which they

714
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,639
probably are because we're conformist herd species of primate. That's

715
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,519
what we do. There's very few original thinkers in the group,

716
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,039
you know, but and they would all they would all

717
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:18,440
say the same shit. They're like, you know, like it

718
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:20,599
goes somewhere else, like, well, you know, I like to

719
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,480
I like it here. I like the you know, I

720
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:24,760
moved here for family reasons. I like the geology and

721
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,760
the plants here. And so you think people shouldn't be

722
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,320
able to own private property. It's like, holy shit. That

723
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,880
that's when I realized, Like this motherfucker's never left the state,

724
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,280
Like he doesn't realize this isn't about owning private property.

725
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,239
This isn't about like you shouldn't be able to own

726
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,840
a few acres of land. That's about living in a

727
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,440
state where the public, the vast majority of the public,

728
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,800
has absolutely no access to any of it except for

729
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,639
a few crumbs which are paid to access and ridden

730
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:55,880
with regulations through Texas Parks and Wildlife. I like this.

731
00:37:56,079 --> 00:38:00,480
You know, where's literally every state west of here, you've

732
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,280
got at least forty to sixty percent, in some cases

733
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,920
much more than that, like in the state case of

734
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,920
Nevada public land. And having experienced that, like growing up,

735
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,599
you know, when I was getting into botany, like that

736
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,280
was where I mean, I would go to fucking Utah.

737
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:15,880
I would follow my hobby does it all the way

738
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,599
to southwestern Utah where it ends to go up to

739
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,519
Nevada to Idaho and there's it's public land everywhere, Like,

740
00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:24,000
where are we going to sleep? Then? I know that's coool.

741
00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:25,960
How about that mountain? Then we can go check out

742
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,639
the other side of that mountain and see what's growing there.

743
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,000
You know, in the morning we wake up and these

744
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:31,960
dudes have never experienced that, and that's why they're so

745
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:35,000
triggered by Well, first off, you know, Texas has kind

746
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,280
of got the I mean a lot of places do

747
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,599
in metroanity of Texas, but the arrogance thing, you know,

748
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,719
that's real, like Texas Texas pride, right exactly. Yeah, it's

749
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,039
like they've but they've never there's just like no intellect.

750
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:47,960
They're like they're not they don't realize that this is

751
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,280
the anomaly. This is not normal, Like most of the

752
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,159
Western United States is publicly accessible.

753
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, Texans aren't known for being really broad thinkers.

754
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,400
There's there's a lot of exceptions, but I mean, culturally speaking,

755
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,199
you know, there's some badass people here, really wonderful people, sure,

756
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:06,000
but there's.

757
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: But the culture itself, the dominant culture, is not an

758
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,880
intellectual They.

759
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,119
Speaker 2: Traveled, no, no they're kind of anti intellectual.

760
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,679
Speaker 1: Right, proudly anti intellectual.

761
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's a it's just interesting you know,

762
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:22,719
redneck Texas as well and alive. Yeah, it's crazy, man.

763
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,400
That's how you know Trump got in office, right, Yeah,

764
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,239
because we're We've got a lot of those guys. And

765
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,519
they're not limited to Texas, of course, they're all over.

766
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the And I'm not a

767
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,400
big I don't I haven't smoked weed in like three years.

768
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,079
But I think that's one of the reasons that they're

769
00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:37,719
so against legalizing pot here too. It's because they want

770
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,480
people drunk, because that's a good way to numb and dumb.

771
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:43,199
You know, you have to end up dealing with your ship. Ever.

772
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,199
You know, you don't never like think because I mean

773
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:47,480
a lot of stoners will just sit there gate mouth.

774
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,280
But I certainly sometimes I like, I'll smoke weed and

775
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,920
it'll boom put me into it. I'm like, oh my god,

776
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,639
and I'm seeing myself in a new way, and I'm like,

777
00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:56,519
oh cool, all right, I want to change my behavior.

778
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:59,320
I want to be like weed can be mildly psychedelic

779
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,639
like that. Think that's probably a large reason why people

780
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:05,239
like Ken Paxton are so against legalizing Maybe.

781
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,199
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think Ken or most of those

782
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:08,480
guys know anything about weed.

783
00:40:08,559 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: No, I would love to fucking do them with good time.

784
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 2: I think if they knew a little more, they'd probably

785
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:15,920
be more relaxed about it.

786
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:16,199
Speaker 1: Yeah.

787
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy's love rules.

788
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, totally. And I don't advocate weed either either.

789
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,519
Like I said, I think it can really I've watched

790
00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:24,039
a lot. I mean, it's not going to ruin your life,

791
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:27,000
like you know, aiast their alcohol, but it's it does.

792
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:29,599
You can get a lot of nothing done on it,

793
00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:31,239
you go. I know the people who are exceptions, but

794
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,519
I know a lot of people who get loopings. But

795
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:36,719
the point is it's just you know, it's this, Yeah,

796
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,599
this culture here is weird, man, it's like this repression too.

797
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,360
It's like this really and me being like a loud

798
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,920
daego who's like, you know, traveled all over and been

799
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,440
all over. It's weird. Like I say, it's directly evident

800
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,000
to me. I'm like, man, people are afraid of like

801
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:54,320
voice and opinion sometimes or it's or like say anything

802
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,599
or go against the grain, or the most people are

803
00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,280
this is of course a generalization, but it's a there's

804
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,480
like an enforced social order just like any place, but

805
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,599
especially here. Yeah, but it's a weird thing. But anyway,

806
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:08,360
but so how do we get to this public this

807
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,440
private land? This goes back almost two hundred years?

808
00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so as the contingencies of history, you know, so Texas,

809
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,320
as we all know, has a really unique history. We

810
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,800
were part of Mexico. I mean we're part of Spain

811
00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:27,280
and before that, and then you know, people from the South,

812
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,119
from the United States started culinating colonizing Texas even when

813
00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:34,119
it was still part of Spain and then turned over

814
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:40,400
to Mexico and it was part of Mexico. But anyway,

815
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,480
what happened was essentially when the United States, I mean

816
00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:50,480
when Texas joined the Union, they i would say were

817
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:53,760
allowed they they kind of had to cut a special deal.

818
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:56,239
What Texas wanted to do was what all the other

819
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,719
Western states did, was they would give up their public

820
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,880
lane sort of to the Feds when they joined the Union.

821
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:10,000
But Texas, but Texas wanted to do that also. But

822
00:42:10,039 --> 00:42:12,039
they also wanted the US to pay off their war debt.

823
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,280
So they had this warring with Mexico. So they had

824
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,400
this ten million dollar war debt, and they have had

825
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,599
one hundred million acres of land, and they were saying,

826
00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:26,239
so you'll take the land pay off our debt. You said, no,

827
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,599
no way. But it turned out five years later with

828
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:37,360
the Compromise Agreement of eighteen fifty. Yeah. So yeah, continuing absolutely,

829
00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:41,079
you know, So the question is why does Texas have

830
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:44,800
no public land to speak of? You know where Nevada's

831
00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:48,400
what fifty five million acres, We've got less than three.

832
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,679
So what happened? Every other state has massive amounts of

833
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,920
public land BLM for a service, you know, other other

834
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,320
kinds of federal land, and we just don't except for primarily,

835
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,599
you know, the national parks and some smaller national grasslands.

836
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,800
And it was because basically, when Texas joined the Union,

837
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,159
they Texas was allowed to keep all of its public

838
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,320
land instead of reverting to federal control.

839
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: And why is that they worked.

840
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: The kind of it It was part of the Compromise

841
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,840
of eighteen fifty. It was because it was mainly because

842
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:32,960
Texas had a large war debt. And so what originally

843
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,639
they wanted the US to pay that off in exchange.

844
00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:37,199
Speaker 1: For oh didn't want to buy it.

845
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: They didn't want to buy it.

846
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: So they were like, all right, well let us keep

847
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,159
it and we'll sell it ourselves. Yeah. Yeah.

848
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,599
Speaker 2: But so what happened in eighteen fifty, that was eighteen

849
00:43:44,639 --> 00:43:46,639
forty five when they joined They say, you keep the

850
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:49,760
debt and you keep your land. In eighteen fifty, part

851
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,440
of the compromise that chopped a bunch of Texas off

852
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,800
all of New Mexico, the part that is now New

853
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,920
Mexico was chopped off of Texas. And so the agreement was,

854
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,239
we're going to reduce the size of Texas and in

855
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,480
exchange for that, we'll pay off your debt. You still

856
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,119
get to keep your land, the rest of your land.

857
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: And so why didn't they want to just buy the

858
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,320
land outright? Why didn't the Feds want to just buy

859
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,039
the land outright?

860
00:44:12,119 --> 00:44:15,159
Speaker 2: You know, uh, you know, they had plenty of land.

861
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:16,840
It was not a scarce commodity.

862
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

863
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:21,519
Speaker 2: And they you know, they didn't just you know, money,

864
00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:23,079
they didn't want they don't want to pay for it,

865
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:23,840
it's too hard to.

866
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,119
Speaker 1: But they would buy New Mexico and these other.

867
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: Well they know that was just given so another every

868
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,039
other state. When those states joined the Union, all the

869
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,159
unsold land reverted to Federals.

870
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,119
Speaker 1: So when Texas joined the Union, it still had a.

871
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:39,119
Speaker 2: War debt, yes, oh yes, a big war debt.

872
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:39,559
Speaker 1: Wow.

873
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,599
Speaker 2: And so that had to be resolved and ultimately the US,

874
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:46,639
I believe, did pay that off and tech but Texas

875
00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:50,559
got to keep its public land. And so what Texas

876
00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:54,119
then proceeded to do was to to sell it or

877
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:58,760
give it away. And some of it was given landscript

878
00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:04,159
for you know, veterans, but they also gave a huge amount,

879
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:07,039
about a third of it away to the railroads as

880
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:10,840
an inducement to build more tracks. So for every mile

881
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,159
of track that was laid, they got sixteen sections of land.

882
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,519
Speaker 1: Jesus, but what is a section? How many acres?

883
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: So it was six hundred and forty acres?

884
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:21,519
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

885
00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they became the biggest landholders state by far.

886
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,480
But the catch was they had to sell it within

887
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:32,159
twelve years, which flooded the market. And what Texas had

888
00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,960
wanted to do was to encourage homesteading and just to

889
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:39,639
be you know, this very democratic sort of agricultural society

890
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:44,840
where people were out on the landscape. But in effect

891
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,480
it consolidated control because well, for one thing out here,

892
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:50,559
you can't have a small ranch. It's not viable. You

893
00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:52,760
have to have a lot of country to run a

894
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,840
viable operation. That was true even back then, and so

895
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:02,639
land became consolidated anyway of Texas' best effort not to

896
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,360
do that. But yeah, Texas, I wouldn't say squandered its

897
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,960
public land, but it certainly wasn't certainly really careful with it.

898
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,119
It basically liquidated a lot of.

899
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: It within like a certain amount how many decades, within

900
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,480
how many decades after joining the Union.

901
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 2: Well, I think the majority of it was gone by

902
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:23,519
eighteen ninety.

903
00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: Compromise of eighteen fifty applied specifically to Texas. That's like

904
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,119
a Texas thing or what is that exactly?

905
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: I think it was involved to other states and there

906
00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,039
were other components of it. It was a component of

907
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:37,920
the Agreement of eighteen fifty, the compromise, So that was

908
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,920
just a piece of it. But Texas lost a lot

909
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,440
of territory there. But they were able to resolve their

910
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,760
debt and they also got to hold on to all

911
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,360
the rest of their public land. Texas did retain about

912
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,159
a third of what they had left for the public

913
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:58,480
school system, and some of that is still owned by

914
00:46:58,519 --> 00:47:02,400
the state, but all the rest but anyway, that's the

915
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,159
gist of it, and that's why we don't have BLM

916
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:10,039
land and national forests and things that have been right

917
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:12,519
next door in New Mexico and Colorado. So if you're

918
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,079
used to the public lands West, if that's what you're

919
00:47:16,159 --> 00:47:18,639
used to, or if that's what you've been exposed to

920
00:47:18,679 --> 00:47:20,280
it at some point in your life, like you have,

921
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,800
and like I have, because I spent a lot of

922
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,639
time in New Mexico and then lived in Montana, you

923
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,119
sort of becoming accustomed to a whole different, you know,

924
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,280
degree of access to land that we just don't have Intoa, and.

925
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: You think nothing of crossing a barberie or fence, right,

926
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,920
these are just here to keep the cattle instead. Doesn't

927
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:40,079
mean I can't go there.

928
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,079
Speaker 2: Exactly, And that's that's true on our national forest lands

929
00:47:44,119 --> 00:47:48,000
because those areas are leased out to ranchers that can

930
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:52,280
graze their cattle or whatever whatever kind of livestock they have.

931
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,639
But it's still public access, so yes, you can still

932
00:47:54,639 --> 00:47:57,440
go out there. Obviously, that's not the case in Texas.

933
00:47:57,559 --> 00:47:57,639
Speaker 1: Now.

934
00:47:57,679 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: If you're born and raised in Texas and you don't

935
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,400
get out of the state much, that's just something you

936
00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:05,320
come to understand and accept. But if you've gone away

937
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,920
and you get used to being out and recreating and

938
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,960
experiencing the larger American lands West, and you come back

939
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,440
to Texas, you can feel really confined really quickly. Yeah,

940
00:48:18,679 --> 00:48:22,199
and it's it's it's kind of startling. So it's given

941
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,519
me that, like yourself, that broader perspective, and it's it

942
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:29,039
begs the question, why is this like this here?

943
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,079
Speaker 1: What's amazing to me is that friends who grew up

944
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:34,079
here and it's like they were if they go to

945
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:36,039
other states and I've been with them, Like if friends

946
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,199
who were from Texas we go to other states and

947
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,440
I'm just walking wherever I see a fence, I jump

948
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,920
over it because it's public land, They're like, what what

949
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,960
are you doing? Like it's they're they're afraid. You know,

950
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:46,000
it's holy shit.

951
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,079
Speaker 2: Well, because yeah, the mantra is if you cross that fence,

952
00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:52,559
you well may get shot killed.

953
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:57,199
Speaker 1: Right point till you get rested right.

954
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 2: Right or whatever. But so it's you know, trespassing on

955
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,360
private land in Texas is something that you know, a

956
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,159
private land land is sacrificanct.

957
00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: Hey, it's just so stupid, it's so creepy too, and

958
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,079
I get it to an extent because if like you know,

959
00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:14,360
we have a conservation property, if I saw dudes lurking

960
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,840
around it, I'd want to know what they were doing.

961
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,599
But the way some of these landowners roll up on

962
00:49:18,639 --> 00:49:20,760
you when you're not even on their property, you know,

963
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,920
and they're like what are you doing? It's like I'm

964
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,719
looking at stuff like I've got a like it's obvious

965
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,280
what I'm doing. Like I'm not doing anything nefarious. You know,

966
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,280
I'll be I mean, i'll be nicer than that, you know,

967
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,360
But this is my train of thought. I mean, I've

968
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,599
got this whole thing. I like wave and smile and

969
00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:38,440
talk to people, chat them up and whatever. You know,

970
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,599
I always do that. But it's just so it's like

971
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,280
just settle down, man, you know, like there's nothing you

972
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,639
don't there's nothing here, Like I'm not I'm not at

973
00:49:46,639 --> 00:49:50,320
your house. It's a it's a there's a vastness, there's nothing,

974
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,920
there's no buildings in sight, there's nothing that could be

975
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:56,119
stolen or tampered with or like what are you?

976
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,079
Speaker 2: But if you're on their land, they take it as

977
00:49:58,079 --> 00:49:59,199
often as a personal frame.

978
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: It's a personal they're.

979
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: Very and they yeah, they don't want to there. They

980
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:07,039
if you haven't asked permission and you suddenly are there,

981
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:09,320
they're offended.

982
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:13,039
Speaker 1: Have you found that many landowners who own large parcels

983
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:15,360
of land will be receptive if you ask?

984
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: It can be It depends. I mean, if you're ask

985
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,480
is for purely recreational reasons, that chances are you're going

986
00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:28,559
to get a negative right and say no. The way

987
00:50:28,639 --> 00:50:30,559
I've been able to personally, and one of the things

988
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:34,000
I've been able to do to circumvent this problem access

989
00:50:34,519 --> 00:50:37,159
is being in a very fortunate position to be able

990
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:40,079
to offer a service to landowners. That has allowed me

991
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:43,280
access to vast amounts of private land that other people

992
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,440
just simply don't have. That's helped me out. It doesn't

993
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,599
help anyone else out doing surveys. But during surveys, yeah,

994
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:53,000
so doing archaeological surveys or if I'm doing historic preservation,

995
00:50:53,079 --> 00:50:56,599
whatever it is, they of course they allow you on

996
00:50:56,639 --> 00:50:59,400
for those purposes. But you're there to work, you know,

997
00:50:59,639 --> 00:51:02,559
and if you recreate a little bit, that's a side thing.

998
00:51:03,639 --> 00:51:06,480
But yeah, if you just ask, can I hike on

999
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:09,880
your property or go camping on your property, I'd be

1000
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,000
surprised if you find a sick.

1001
00:51:11,079 --> 00:51:13,119
Speaker 1: Can I do a plant survey and I'll pull you

1002
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:13,960
out a list of what.

1003
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 2: I'm maybe that although they do get us, they get

1004
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:23,039
really sketched out about plants well, because of the Endangered

1005
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:23,960
Species Act.

1006
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: But that doesn't affect plants in Texas.

1007
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: They don't know that, and they are always afraid that

1008
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,719
you're going to find something that's endangered and that their

1009
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,480
land's going to be taken away. And it is such

1010
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,199
an entrenched mantra that they even if it's proven untrue,

1011
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:41,559
you can show them all the evidence, they're not going

1012
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:45,159
to believe you. We have organizations that are pretty much

1013
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:47,679
dedicated to doubling down on these kind of ideas. One

1014
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,639
is the Davis Mountains Heritage Association, which is based out

1015
00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:54,320
of Alpine here, and so that that would be an

1016
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,719
interesting conversation to have with some of those guys. They say, well,

1017
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,000
they're private property rights. It's private property rights group, and

1018
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:05,000
so they they sort of defend that against any threat.

1019
00:52:05,079 --> 00:52:07,039
And one of those threats and the reason that it

1020
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:11,679
started was because there was a push I think it's

1021
00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:15,039
twenty years ago, thirty years ago to make part of

1022
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:18,880
the Davis Mountains a national park. And that just created

1023
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,440
a firestorm of opposition.

1024
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: Wow.

1025
00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:24,039
Speaker 2: Really Yeah, yep, it's an interesting story that no one

1026
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:25,599
has for.

1027
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: The economy there too.

1028
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 2: That's crazy, Well, it is, but it's very Again, it's

1029
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,039
you're you're touching on something that's really sensitive to landowners

1030
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:38,639
and they feel that even if it's not their land,

1031
00:52:38,679 --> 00:52:42,159
it's the ranch next door becomes part of a national

1032
00:52:42,199 --> 00:52:46,079
park that is just deeply offensive to them. Wow, on

1033
00:52:46,119 --> 00:52:50,400
some levels that I can't quite explain myself, but it's

1034
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,920
really bizarre. I will say that, in spite of whatever

1035
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,719
views I have on public land and access, I have

1036
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,239
cer times in my life worked alongside with private landowners.

1037
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,159
We really reached across the aisle where we had a

1038
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:10,679
common cause, and I found myself in the weird position

1039
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,920
of defending private property rights. But what I was defending

1040
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,239
it from was not folks like you and me. I

1041
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,079
was defending it from what should have been an illegal

1042
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:25,039
taking eminent domain for private gain. In that case, it

1043
00:53:25,199 --> 00:53:28,599
was the Transpacos pipeline, which was taking land from private

1044
00:53:28,679 --> 00:53:33,119
landowners under eminent domain, but it was not intended to

1045
00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:34,000
serve the public good.

1046
00:53:34,119 --> 00:53:36,559
Speaker 1: So you can't form a national park where you can

1047
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:40,679
build a pipeline. The exact state is all kinds of

1048
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,440
fucked up. Man. Oh yeah, wow, So what happened with that?

1049
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:44,480
We lost?

1050
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: We lost after you know, an in battled fight. We lost,

1051
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,039
and what we found out kind of way towards the end.

1052
00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:53,559
It shouldn't have been this way, but there was a

1053
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:56,760
very little known piece of legislation that had been passed,

1054
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,480
I guess quietly years before that handed the power of

1055
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:05,159
eminent domain to any natural gas carrier, regardless of what

1056
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:05,760
the project.

1057
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:07,039
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1058
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:09,119
Speaker 2: So this is a level of insanity that you have

1059
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:11,519
a hard time wrapping your head around. But it's on

1060
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:15,239
the books and that's what allowed Transpagos pipeline and all

1061
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,119
these other smaller pipelines that are being pushed through to Mexico. Yeah,

1062
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:20,440
that's crazy.

1063
00:54:20,559 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: Where So where does trans Pago's pipeline run from?

1064
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: Runs from the Waha hub, which is up in the

1065
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:34,079
Permian near uh, what's the town there, Quinosa? From there

1066
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,199
to down through it runs right to outside of Alpine, Uh,

1067
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,159
you know, through the Pysona Pass uh, and then east

1068
00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:48,639
of Marfa down to border crossing, which is actually west

1069
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,199
of Presidio M H and so, and then continues on

1070
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:52,960
into Mexico.

1071
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,079
Speaker 1: Wow, that's nuts.

1072
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 2: It was. Yeah, it was a very destructive act in

1073
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,800
a process. Of course, we were five not just because

1074
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,320
we wanted to have something to fight against. I mean,

1075
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,719
there were certainly people maybe that were involved that that

1076
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,400
was what their intent was. But mine was to stop

1077
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,440
the damn thing because really a lot of people here

1078
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,800
and myself included, love the Big Ben for its natural

1079
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,400
qualities and we fear anything that's any thing that's going

1080
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:25,119
to destroy that, and so fighting against the industrialization of

1081
00:55:25,119 --> 00:55:28,159
the last best place in Texas, that was basically what

1082
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:31,639
we were doing. But we didn't stand a chance, and

1083
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,239
so we didn't know that. I think the only good

1084
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,159
that came out of it was an enduring organization, which

1085
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:42,280
is the Big Ben Conservation Alliance, which still exists. And secondly,

1086
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,039
you know, I think we did two things which I'm

1087
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:48,840
proud of. One is that we elevated the region in

1088
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,719
a way that maybe it hadn't been before in recognition

1089
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,199
of its natural resources. And the other thing was sort

1090
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:58,400
of saying, hey, it's the whole region that's significant, not

1091
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,199
just Big Ben National Park State Park. It's the whole thing, right,

1092
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,159
because you can't you know, those those ecological and cultural

1093
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:11,079
significance does not stop at the fence boundary, right, It's

1094
00:56:11,079 --> 00:56:17,320
the whole thing, and it's all important. So we because

1095
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:22,280
it all did across private lands, we reached out to

1096
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,840
and worked with private landowners ranchers.

1097
00:56:25,559 --> 00:56:26,559
Speaker 1: And they didn't want it either.

1098
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,599
Speaker 2: They did not, A lot of them did not. A

1099
00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:31,039
lot of them didn't want it, but didn't want to

1100
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:32,800
fight it because they felt like they were going to

1101
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,199
get a better deal in the end and they didn't

1102
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,199
have a chance. And so that was the majority of

1103
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:37,280
landowners we're in that.

1104
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: Like the same thing with the border wall.

1105
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was an eminent domain thing. So yeah,

1106
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:45,679
most of them didn't want it, but some of them

1107
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,000
just sucked it up trying to get a better deal.

1108
00:56:48,039 --> 00:56:51,559
But those who didn't had to take it to court

1109
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:54,280
and then ended up, you know, getting usually a much

1110
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,400
poorer settlement in the end, but still had the pipeline

1111
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,679
through them anyway. And one of the stands that we

1112
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,519
made was at an archaeological site near Hovey on the

1113
00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:08,599
east side of the Davis Mountains up here, and it

1114
00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:11,000
was a really significant archaeological site that they were going

1115
00:57:11,039 --> 00:57:13,599
to plow right through, and so we were saying, hey,

1116
00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:16,039
you know, at least in this case, can you go

1117
00:57:16,119 --> 00:57:19,800
around it, let's save this site, and didn't do it.

1118
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:21,039
Speaker 1: God, that's crazy.

1119
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we were there to witness the destruction when

1120
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,719
when it actually happened, and it was well, it was

1121
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,159
the site. You know, it was a multi component site

1122
00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:30,800
with a lot of time depth. We don't even know

1123
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,199
how much, but at least four thousand years based on

1124
00:57:34,239 --> 00:57:35,880
the point types that we were finding. It's a very

1125
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,239
large site that had different site components in its different

1126
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,159
areas based through it was sort of functionally around a spring,

1127
00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:48,360
but they basically plowed through what we would consider a

1128
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,599
prehistoric kitchen an area with a bunch of bedrock mortars

1129
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:53,000
and earth ovens.

1130
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:54,159
Speaker 1: That's fucking crazy.

1131
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, just disregarded that because they didn't have to. The

1132
00:57:57,039 --> 00:58:00,280
interesting thing was that they did hire an archaeological survey

1133
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,360
done under their own dime. They didn't have to do that.

1134
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,199
Speaker 1: Why'd they do it just to make them look good.

1135
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 2: Apparently, because obviously they weren't following the guidelines of their

1136
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,840
own archaeologists. So it was it was interesting and eye opening,

1137
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,639
but in the end it was just depressing.

1138
00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: Where was that up?

1139
00:58:16,519 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 2: It's north of Alpine. It's about, you know, twenty miles

1140
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,719
north of Alpine, a on a private ranch just east

1141
00:58:23,719 --> 00:58:26,159
of the Davis Mountains. It was probably the site may

1142
00:58:26,159 --> 00:58:30,320
have been the site that Mendoza came to, you know,

1143
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:36,239
back in the in the eighteen I'm sorry, what was

1144
00:58:36,239 --> 00:58:37,960
his Sorry, I can't remember that.

1145
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: The date No.

1146
00:58:38,519 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 2: Sixteen, sixteen eighty five, I think, wow, holy yeah, so

1147
00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:46,320
very early on. Anyway, it was it was part of

1148
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,480
a natural trail corridor through there. It was one of

1149
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,480
the stops along. There was just a spring just like

1150
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:57,079
Alpine was on that same trail system. And the spring

1151
00:58:57,079 --> 00:59:01,760
here at Alpine was another stopping point, uh, throughout history,

1152
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,280
throughout prehistory.

1153
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was. It's they're all dried up now.

1154
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: Right, some of them still have as a flow trickle trickle, wow.

1155
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,679
But but it was a it's a really important side

1156
00:59:14,719 --> 00:59:17,480
and it was unfortunate to lose that.

1157
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:20,559
Speaker 1: But how deep is the limestone beneath alpined? You know,

1158
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,920
because there's limestone everywhere, but there's this all this volcanic

1159
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:24,880
on top of it, right.

1160
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,719
Speaker 2: There's volcands. I don't know, I don't know the answer

1161
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:29,320
to that. You know, that would be a probably looking

1162
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,960
at some well logs, you know, water well logs.

1163
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:34,199
Speaker 1: Or yeah, that would be able to deeps the water

1164
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,079
table here five hundred feet or something.

1165
00:59:36,079 --> 00:59:38,519
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, now really, I mean there's the wells

1166
00:59:38,519 --> 00:59:40,719
here in town are really shallow, really it wells like

1167
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:41,920
twenty thirty feet.

1168
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

1169
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,159
Speaker 2: It just depends on where you're at in town. But

1170
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:47,880
there's there's shallow wells. The wells that we operate of

1171
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:54,519
off of now are deep wells, but there's water much

1172
00:59:54,559 --> 00:59:55,519
closer to the surface.

1173
00:59:56,239 --> 00:59:59,039
Speaker 1: But generally it's drier now here than it was twenty

1174
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:01,599
or thirty years ago, right, your old timers talking about

1175
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:04,760
every every afternoon it used to rain here. Yeah, Yeah,

1176
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:05,880
that's crazy.

1177
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, I mean that's global climate change in action,

1178
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,000
you know. So it's we're seeing it and we're seeing

1179
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:15,960
it come harder and faster than anybody ever predicted, except

1180
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,760
the you know, the worst predictions. And that should be

1181
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,079
eye opening, and it should it should be reason for

1182
01:00:21,159 --> 01:00:23,360
us all to you know, kind of have a come

1183
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,199
to Jesus moment and change our actions and change the

1184
01:00:26,239 --> 01:00:28,199
way we vote and change the way we live. And

1185
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,199
then we're not doing that. And of course what that

1186
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:35,280
means is that we're doing. We're doomed. Were two ways

1187
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:35,599
about it.

1188
01:00:35,639 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much oil company propaganda out there too,

1189
01:00:39,039 --> 01:00:39,840
of course, it's just.

1190
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,679
Speaker 2: I mean they have all the money, all the attorneys.

1191
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:44,079
You know, you can't fight that. They can put any

1192
01:00:44,079 --> 01:00:46,960
spin on that they want, and there's enough global people

1193
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,639
out there to wrap it up that, you know, our

1194
01:00:50,639 --> 01:00:52,519
fate is kind of sealed. I hate to say that,

1195
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:54,920
but you know, but.

1196
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: The propaganda is just the dumbing down of America bills.

1197
01:00:58,079 --> 01:00:59,679
I've got this guy coming out on the podcast on

1198
01:00:59,719 --> 01:01:02,639
Tuesday who's done all these videos. He does a bunch

1199
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:05,559
of videos teaching people shit look organic chemistry and like

1200
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:09,119
YouTube videos. But then he's got all these videos attacking

1201
01:01:09,119 --> 01:01:12,239
people like Joe Rogan, not attacking but criticizing them for

1202
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,880
just the fucking charlatans that they kind of are, you know,

1203
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,719
like the pseudoscientists, and that dude has like climate and

1204
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,320
I ares on his podcast left and Right, and they're

1205
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,280
just like this whole cult and you know this like

1206
01:01:23,519 --> 01:01:27,440
with a far reach, this whole cult of like idiocracy

1207
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,519
you just see hitting America, and it's got to be

1208
01:01:30,599 --> 01:01:35,400
funded by special interests and wealth and you know, powerful

1209
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,000
interests from way up. But it just blows my mind. Man,

1210
01:01:38,039 --> 01:01:39,880
I'm like, damn, this is like, this is exactly what

1211
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,800
Carl Sagan was talking about, you know, forty years ago

1212
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:45,960
when he wrote the book, you know, the demon haunted

1213
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,159
World Science is a candle in the dark. You know.

1214
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,079
It's like he's like that whole quote, like I foresee

1215
01:01:51,119 --> 01:01:55,000
in America and either my children's future or their children's

1216
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,360
future where and then he just starts listing everything that's

1217
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,039
happening today. It's like the dumbing down. It's like ignorance

1218
01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:05,159
mixed with arrogance, and then this anti intellectualism too. It's

1219
01:02:05,599 --> 01:02:06,559
it's crazy.

1220
01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: It's very pronounced, especially in Texas especially, you know, and

1221
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,039
it's it's yeah runs deep and uh you know, but

1222
01:02:17,079 --> 01:02:19,400
that also means, you know, where you have something that strong,

1223
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,400
you also have a kind of equal and opposite reaction

1224
01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:24,159
to that. And that means people like myself and I

1225
01:02:24,159 --> 01:02:26,639
guess you and otherre's a lot of whom are native

1226
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:28,880
to Texas, but they don't share those views.

1227
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,199
Speaker 1: No, there's a bunch of there's some pretty great people here, yeah,

1228
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,239
on top of on top of their ship. But it's

1229
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,039
just uh, it's just getting away from that dominant culture. Man,

1230
01:02:38,079 --> 01:02:41,920
it really is. We're apes, We're tribal apes. You look

1231
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,360
at chimps there in groups, were in groups like how

1232
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,920
do I feel? How's my buddy? If they just we

1233
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,679
do what's around us. You know, we do whatever a little,

1234
01:02:49,679 --> 01:02:51,719
whether it's part of the big group or a little group.

1235
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,480
We just it's just conformity, you know. And it's the

1236
01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:56,360
But the people who are like fuck that, I'm not

1237
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,000
gonna do that. I'm gonna do my own ship. I'm

1238
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,880
gonna this is you know, those are the people I

1239
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,519
want to be around. That's those are the gems. But yeah,

1240
01:03:03,639 --> 01:03:06,000
and I don't fall people for being conformist. It's I

1241
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,559
think it's in our DNA. That's our social behavior can't erase. However,

1242
01:03:10,599 --> 01:03:12,840
many millions of years of that is coded in us.

1243
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,880
But man, we got the power to be different, you.

1244
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 2: Know, we do have the power to be different. And

1245
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,039
that's I guess that's where the disappointment comes in in

1246
01:03:20,079 --> 01:03:24,599
my book, is that humanity has the opportunity, has a capability.

1247
01:03:24,639 --> 01:03:27,519
It's so much good, you know, and do so many

1248
01:03:27,559 --> 01:03:29,639
great things, and we fail and.

1249
01:03:29,559 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: It's all dependent them cultural teachings though, and what culture

1250
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:33,119
you're a part of.

1251
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but you know, we just, yeah, we can't

1252
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,880
ever get on the same page, even even within our

1253
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,159
own state, within our own political party, much less our

1254
01:03:43,199 --> 01:03:46,360
own country, much less the globe, and so you know,

1255
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,880
and these rise of dictators and it's a it's a mess.

1256
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: It's that kind of last forever though. It can't. It'll it'll,

1257
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:54,320
it'll break wall.

1258
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,679
Speaker 2: It's we're very close, very close to that wall. You know,

1259
01:03:58,679 --> 01:04:01,199
America is not the United States is not going to

1260
01:04:01,239 --> 01:04:04,960
be in the end. I mean, it's certainly can't maintain

1261
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,519
its position as a global superpower forever.

1262
01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:09,719
Speaker 1: No, No, we're.

1263
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 2: Kind of at the end of that story. And whether

1264
01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:14,920
you know, whether it's a hostile takeover or we're bombed

1265
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:17,239
to smotherings or what, I don't who knows what's going

1266
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:17,920
to happen.

1267
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:19,679
Speaker 1: Or we just kind of become I mean, I think

1268
01:04:19,679 --> 01:04:22,119
it's already happened. We're just kind of becoming irrelevant to

1269
01:04:22,159 --> 01:04:25,679
a lot of other nations. I think, Yeah, our culture

1270
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,639
is just, man, it's crazy. I don't know. You know,

1271
01:04:28,719 --> 01:04:31,960
we export some of the biggest, most entitled asshole behavior

1272
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,239
and you talk to other people from other countries, it's

1273
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,800
what they mean, it's a joke. It's a the American

1274
01:04:40,239 --> 01:04:42,960
you know, prototype is kind of a joke.

1275
01:04:43,719 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 2: It is it is.

1276
01:04:45,199 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 1: Just thinks it's the best, but has no experience to

1277
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,039
think that it hasn't traveled at all, like this this

1278
01:04:52,199 --> 01:04:56,159
unearned arrogance. But it's yeah, it's a shame though, and

1279
01:04:56,199 --> 01:05:00,199
no humility and no compassion or gratitude and.

1280
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 2: Just you know, certainly not in our leaders. It's just

1281
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,199
not in their DNA, it's not their different kind of

1282
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:08,920
animal and our political system I've been sick created then

1283
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,840
they've always existed, but it empowers them. And unfortunately those people,

1284
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,079
as most as a lot of people know, are not

1285
01:05:15,159 --> 01:05:17,000
the best leaders. They're well, actually the worst.

1286
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:19,239
Speaker 1: There's that George Carlin bit where he's like, yeah, people

1287
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,320
always talk about politicians suck. Oh yeah, they suck. Well,

1288
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,000
where do you think they come from? They come from

1289
01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:27,800
American universities and American schools and American churches, and you know,

1290
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,880
I would say the public sucks. You know, it's and

1291
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,679
it's like it gets dark, and he got dark in

1292
01:05:33,719 --> 01:05:36,199
the lafter years. He's like, the public sucks. Fuck hope,

1293
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:38,320
but he just goes off about it. He's like if

1294
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,280
you have shitty, entitled, arrogant citizens, are gonna have shitty, arrogant,

1295
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,800
entitled leaders. That's what we get.

1296
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we don't seem to have mechanisms, you know,

1297
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:52,400
to to bring people into the system that do you know,

1298
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,400
have insight and compassion, probably because they're smart enough to

1299
01:05:55,519 --> 01:05:56,360
know they don't want.

1300
01:05:56,239 --> 01:05:58,159
Speaker 1: To, right. I would never want to do that in

1301
01:05:58,199 --> 01:06:00,679
no way, man. But also it's it's all culture teachings

1302
01:06:00,679 --> 01:06:03,280
and this ship. We don't have a national culture anymore.

1303
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,920
Our national culture is Chick fil A and consumerism and

1304
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,599
driving everywhere and being trapped in a car in the

1305
01:06:09,639 --> 01:06:12,559
parking lot and the fucking lawn in front of the

1306
01:06:12,559 --> 01:06:15,480
cul de Sac house. That everyone that's like means you've

1307
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,199
made it if you've got that. Like, we don't have

1308
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:20,960
a natural culture anymore, a national culture. We don't have

1309
01:06:21,039 --> 01:06:25,079
like a or anything worth respecting as a national culture.

1310
01:06:25,119 --> 01:06:29,199
You know, it's consumerism and that's become everything. Yeah.

1311
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,639
Speaker 2: I mean, we have this incredible freedom in the United States.

1312
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,880
It's the freedom to buy any goddamn thing we want. Yeah,

1313
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,280
because if you look at our other freedoms, they're they're

1314
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:40,159
not quite as fleshed out.

1315
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,519
Speaker 1: Art science, intellect. That's all fallen off. We've been defunding

1316
01:06:43,519 --> 01:06:44,679
that for the last fifty years.

1317
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not use since.

1318
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: Reagan, so forty years, I guess. But anyway, well man,

1319
01:06:49,519 --> 01:06:51,239
thanks a lot for being down to come on. It's

1320
01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:53,199
I could talk to you for another hour, two, we

1321
01:06:53,639 --> 01:06:54,360
could talk forever.

1322
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's plenty of fodder out there, plenty of

1323
01:06:56,679 --> 01:06:59,800
things to talk about. But you know, glad you're here.

1324
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:06,159
This is an incredible region. And just at any point

1325
01:07:06,199 --> 01:07:10,119
that I'm allowed an opportunity to speak, I just urge

1326
01:07:10,239 --> 01:07:15,039
people to be respectful of the land and each other,

1327
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:18,079
you know, just that's all it is. It's pretty simple,

1328
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:22,519
because I just see an inordinate amount of disrespect everywhere.

1329
01:07:22,559 --> 01:07:27,079
We run disrespectful, and it's painful. So for some of us,

1330
01:07:27,679 --> 01:07:29,199
for a lot of people, it doesn't, you know, it's

1331
01:07:29,239 --> 01:07:31,400
just it is what is. It doesn't mean anything to them.

1332
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,199
But for people who like myself where you know, I

1333
01:07:34,239 --> 01:07:36,159
look at a landscape and I see a holistic thing.

1334
01:07:36,199 --> 01:07:39,199
It's I don't even see the fences. I see a landscape,

1335
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,800
and when I see insults to that, it hurts. It hurts,

1336
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,840
really like a physical pain. When I see that pipeline

1337
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,880
scar when I see someone blading a new road, when

1338
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:52,719
I see them tearing down a mountain, what John is

1339
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,000
doing up here on a mountain is an absolute travesty.

1340
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:01,719
Oh so John Shootvega. He owns with his wife Blue

1341
01:08:01,719 --> 01:08:05,280
Water Natural Foods, which is a great asset in Alpine

1342
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,639
because it's our only natural food store here. A lot

1343
01:08:08,679 --> 01:08:11,039
of us like to go there. Unfortunately, he also owns

1344
01:08:11,199 --> 01:08:14,960
a bunch of a mountain and he likes to play

1345
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,119
with heavy machinery, and so he's been tearing up that

1346
01:08:19,159 --> 01:08:23,279
mountain for several years now. Originally he wanted to make

1347
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:26,520
it into a subdivision, but I think the thing was

1348
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,760
he couldn't get the city to agree to give water

1349
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,640
and the infrastructure he needed. So he's made it, making

1350
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,279
it into an RV park. In the meantime, he's blasting

1351
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:39,760
out pads, and not blasting, he's hammering out pads and

1352
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,239
moving a lot of rock up there. I mean, you

1353
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:47,840
can hear his one of those hammer drills, power drills

1354
01:08:49,239 --> 01:08:53,000
going when he's doing it anywhere intown and you assume, well,

1355
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,640
that's some public works thing, highway department. Maybe, No, it's

1356
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:59,920
some dude up there with a big machine trying to play.

1357
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: That's crazy too. That's because that's what that's the argument.

1358
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,000
You hear people saying in Texas for private land, well,

1359
01:09:05,039 --> 01:09:08,520
the private landowner can take care of it. Fuck no, no,

1360
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,479
I've seen the private landowner can fuck the land into

1361
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,800
a coma and totally scrape it barren and doesn't have

1362
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:17,960
anybody to answer to. You can't do that on federal land.

1363
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,439
A lot of federal lands have been turned into solar

1364
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:24,279
farms whatever, but even that's an extensive process. They have

1365
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:27,279
to pay for it. It's it still sucks. That shouldn't

1366
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:30,560
be legal either, but you know it's no private landowners

1367
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:34,119
can do anything. I've seen private landowners multiple times, like

1368
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:37,720
repeatedly just destroy and you know, some rich guy gets

1369
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:39,880
a hair up his ass, thanks he knows what he's doing,

1370
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,640
and he just starts destroying shit, and it's sending everything

1371
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,239
that lives there running for cover, you know.

1372
01:09:44,399 --> 01:09:46,079
Speaker 2: So it's unfortunately it's more the rule than the.

1373
01:09:46,199 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: Fucking idiots just blasting shit around, like drive drunk and

1374
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:53,079
driving a fucking skid steer around. That's such a thing.

1375
01:09:53,119 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 2: If you have a skitser, you suddenly or bulldozer, you

1376
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,560
suddenly really look, you need some dirt to push around,

1377
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,600
you need something to do with it, right.

1378
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just yeah, you're exactly right. You've got this toy.

1379
01:10:03,399 --> 01:10:05,279
You need to go use it somehow. Absolutely.

1380
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,520
Speaker 2: And so John's got some big toys and he's using them.

1381
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:10,800
So next time you get a chance, take a look

1382
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,159
up there, because that's that's his legacy. That's his legacy

1383
01:10:14,199 --> 01:10:16,279
to alphine it. And to me it feels like, you know,

1384
01:10:16,319 --> 01:10:18,159
he's just up there kind of giving us the bird.

1385
01:10:18,279 --> 01:10:20,159
Speaker 1: You could do so much like if man, if you've

1386
01:10:20,159 --> 01:10:23,000
got someone who had had even like the slightest inkling

1387
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:26,039
of like restoration or conservation, they could be turning that into.

1388
01:10:26,079 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 2: Nature trails, yeah, or something something beautiful, an asset for

1389
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,199
the community.

1390
01:10:31,319 --> 01:10:34,199
Speaker 1: For like these three hundred pounds to take ships and.

1391
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 2: Fucking ostensibly, what he's doing is giving these our veers

1392
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,159
a great view of the town. But the cost of

1393
01:10:41,199 --> 01:10:44,479
that is he's diminishing the view of the rest of

1394
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:47,239
the people of Alpine. So the community, it's a net loss.

1395
01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 1: A lot of stuff lives up there too. Yeah, there's

1396
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,159
a bunch of I think the there's supposed to be

1397
01:10:51,199 --> 01:10:54,039
a fran of stomach population up there. Yeah, someone's telling

1398
01:10:54,039 --> 01:10:56,039
me about a bunch of cool I mean, it's crazy.

1399
01:10:56,119 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 2: It's a real disservice, you know. But on that note,

1400
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,439
I will say this and any private property rights guy,

1401
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:02,920
this is the first thing they're going to say, and

1402
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,279
I want to acknowledge this at the outset, and that

1403
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,720
is that there are a lot of private landowners who

1404
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,000
do great things. Jeff Fort's a good example. But there's

1405
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:15,560
dozens of them, hundreds thousands way, you know, across the state,

1406
01:11:16,199 --> 01:11:19,760
who are respectful, who do good things with the land,

1407
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,039
who you know, take care of their wildlife, who are

1408
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:27,520
mindful of the cultural resources, put them into conservation easements,

1409
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,520
donate the land to you know, public land.

1410
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,039
Speaker 1: And in that case the land looks out but it

1411
01:11:35,079 --> 01:11:35,479
really does.

1412
01:11:36,119 --> 01:11:38,920
Speaker 2: But unfortunately that's more the exception than the rule.

1413
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's luck of the draw and it's not common.

1414
01:11:41,039 --> 01:11:43,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and being a private landowner, you have the right

1415
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:45,960
to do anything you want on your land.

1416
01:11:46,039 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: Well, most people too are just so disconnected from quote

1417
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,319
nature or conservation. They have no clue. The don't want

1418
01:11:51,319 --> 01:11:54,600
people know corporate logos than you know, three native plants

1419
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:54,800
that go.

1420
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 2: Around, right, And so people become landowners, they don't have

1421
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,399
really any understanding of the land in an ecologic sense,

1422
01:12:00,399 --> 01:12:03,359
and so they don't even know what they're destroying, and

1423
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:05,239
that to me is the big rub. And that was

1424
01:12:05,359 --> 01:12:09,199
definitely one of the mantras that we repeated with the pipeline,

1425
01:12:09,239 --> 01:12:12,079
because they were putting this pipeline through and we did

1426
01:12:12,119 --> 01:12:15,319
not even know the variety of things that they were

1427
01:12:15,319 --> 01:12:19,319
destroying the process of that, and until we know. You know,

1428
01:12:20,199 --> 01:12:24,680
people hate property rights, people hate the Endangered Species Act,

1429
01:12:25,079 --> 01:12:29,359
hate NIPA, hate you know, this idea of environmental review.

1430
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:35,079
But in my mind, every single thing, every road, every

1431
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:38,279
stop sign should have to go through some kind of

1432
01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:41,640
review process to say, what is the larger impact of

1433
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,439
this taking, how is this going to affect the landscape,

1434
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,560
How's it going to affect the wildlife?

1435
01:12:47,319 --> 01:12:51,039
Speaker 1: Controversial plays like California, it's i mean, people still get

1436
01:12:51,039 --> 01:12:53,880
away with shit because you know, but they plays like California,

1437
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:55,479
you have to do ers. Yeah, you got to do

1438
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,600
environmental impact reviews and all this. It's mandatory, right, And.

1439
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 2: Of course you know that is the case with public

1440
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,359
land and also in private land where public funds are used,

1441
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,800
but those are pretty isolated cases, and so the mass

1442
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,479
majority of Texas is privately owned, and so that means

1443
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:16,279
the vast majority of Texas is at risk of being damaged.

1444
01:13:16,279 --> 01:13:18,079
And of course that ship sale, most of it has

1445
01:13:18,119 --> 01:13:22,520
been torn up. The worst example locally is the Permian Basin.

1446
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:28,800
They've destroyed whatever good yeah, chicken pok with oil wells.

1447
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:32,359
And of course all that was economically driven, and it

1448
01:13:32,399 --> 01:13:36,119
would have been hard to replay that in any version

1449
01:13:36,239 --> 01:13:39,199
without the same kind of the same outcome. But bugs

1450
01:13:39,239 --> 01:13:45,399
me because they are a different culture. That extractive industry

1451
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:46,920
sort of creates a different culture.

1452
01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:47,600
Speaker 1: It just is.

1453
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:50,520
Speaker 2: Whereas Big ben we had the luck of not having

1454
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,760
massive oil reserves.

1455
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:53,319
Speaker 1: Just luck.

1456
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,319
Speaker 2: But so most of our sort of cultural heritage comes

1457
01:13:57,359 --> 01:14:00,800
from big ranches and it's a very different culture and

1458
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,119
it's a very different mindset, uh. And it's one that

1459
01:14:04,159 --> 01:14:06,039
I have much more of a connection to because they

1460
01:14:06,399 --> 01:14:11,640
do have much more, much higher awareness of land issues.

1461
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,199
I mean, because if you think about it, a lot

1462
01:14:14,199 --> 01:14:19,119
of ranchers really consider themselves grass farmers because the grass

1463
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:23,279
is what is the is their primary resource, and so

1464
01:14:23,399 --> 01:14:25,439
they have to take care of the land to some

1465
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,399
extent or they're screwing themselves. And of course some have

1466
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,920
been much better than others and doing that and executing it,

1467
01:14:31,199 --> 01:14:33,399
and then you've got other factors that they can't control,

1468
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,800
for market and climate. In my books that I've written

1469
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,479
about in this area, the Two Ranch History and the

1470
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,199
Pentol Canyon book, I deal with that a lot. I

1471
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:45,600
talk about that a lot because it's it's just a

1472
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,000
significant factor.

1473
01:14:47,159 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: What was going on in Pentho Canyon.

1474
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:53,279
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the Pentol Canyon was what I found there.

1475
01:14:53,319 --> 01:14:57,000
It was just a really good little microcosm of early

1476
01:14:57,359 --> 01:15:00,640
sort of homesteading. There was a bunch of little ranches,

1477
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,119
little homesteads that occurred in that canyon back in the

1478
01:15:04,199 --> 01:15:06,960
day when when homesteading was occurring in the eighteen eighties

1479
01:15:07,039 --> 01:15:11,880
and nineties. That of course, that was all were consolidated

1480
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,520
over time and then became, you know, one big ranch

1481
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,319
by the end. But it was a story of those

1482
01:15:18,359 --> 01:15:22,000
small beginnings that I that I tell there, and it

1483
01:15:22,079 --> 01:15:24,359
was it was they had their own schoolhouse. I mean,

1484
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:27,239
all these ranchers knew each other, There were friends, they

1485
01:15:27,239 --> 01:15:28,039
helped each other out.

1486
01:15:28,079 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: How long ago was twenty years? Yeah?

1487
01:15:31,199 --> 01:15:34,279
Speaker 2: Was there? You know? These that school was was in

1488
01:15:34,319 --> 01:15:37,720
the nineteen teens, was there? There's still remnants of it.

1489
01:15:38,039 --> 01:15:39,840
If you drive through you can si live out here.

1490
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:41,640
Speaker 1: Then the railroad was running through here.

1491
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, all these all these settlements were

1492
01:15:45,079 --> 01:15:48,399
depending on the railroad. Very little existed before the railroad came,

1493
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:50,840
so it was all after eighteen eighty two.

1494
01:15:51,039 --> 01:15:55,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, like roads, were there any long distance highways.

1495
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 2: No highways, you know, there were dirt dirt roads that

1496
01:15:58,079 --> 01:16:00,520
were at that point. Most of them had been built

1497
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,760
by the military. Other than that, there were just trails

1498
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,920
that had had kind of been used through time. So

1499
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:10,079
there was very little out here before the railroads came,

1500
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:14,319
and that was kind of the enabling infrastructure that allowed

1501
01:16:14,319 --> 01:16:16,199
this area to be settled. And of course Alpine didn't

1502
01:16:16,199 --> 01:16:20,359
even exist, that was the very end of their of

1503
01:16:20,399 --> 01:16:23,479
their reign, but they were still here in the in

1504
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,560
the eighteen eighties and that's why you know, Fort Davis

1505
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:30,039
was established, was to protect the mail route and people

1506
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:35,760
passing through to California and settlers from Indian raids. But

1507
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,039
but yeah, you know, it was just, uh, it's an

1508
01:16:39,039 --> 01:16:41,039
interesting history, but you look back at it, we were

1509
01:16:41,039 --> 01:16:44,640
stealing that land. We stole all of it, the entire

1510
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,720
continent for people who are who were already here, and

1511
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,359
so we have these deep seated American values that that

1512
01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:55,520
you know, that equal rights and all these things, but

1513
01:16:55,920 --> 01:17:01,680
we cannot forget this sort of major, you know, like transgression.

1514
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,279
Speaker 1: That we did em Yeah.

1515
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 2: Now, if it wasn't us, it would have been someone else.

1516
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:10,000
That's all true, you know, the more powerful forces going over.

1517
01:17:10,039 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 1: But it doesn't make it.

1518
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't make it right.

1519
01:17:12,279 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 1: Especially the way that this, this civilization, this culture is

1520
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,960
treated the land is terrible. It's just fucking you know,

1521
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,600
God put it here for us, we can do whatever

1522
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:23,720
we want with it. There's just no respect for the land.

1523
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,479
There's no respect for the things that live on it.

1524
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,359
There's no perspective of place in it. Those are the

1525
01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:31,760
things I like about indigenous cultures, and so they had

1526
01:17:32,039 --> 01:17:33,960
a place for that. But again I think they arrived

1527
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,560
there as a result of making mistakes, absolutely, you know,

1528
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,159
and seeing population crashes and that kind of thing.

1529
01:17:41,079 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 2: But you know, instilled in them a degree of humility,

1530
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,960
in the right and gratitude.

1531
01:17:47,399 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 1: That we just do not know. This culture has never

1532
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:51,439
had that. We have a fucking out.

1533
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,560
Speaker 2: We've really lost it. But some people have come have

1534
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,000
come around to it. I guess you and I are

1535
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,640
probably some of those we have a tribe between the

1536
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,319
dominant cult The dominant culture is not it's not you know,

1537
01:18:02,399 --> 01:18:04,760
and they're who are they? Well, turn on the TV.

1538
01:18:05,119 --> 01:18:08,399
Speaker 1: The dominant cultures pigs. It's like chick fil a and

1539
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,760
McDonald's and just you know, this is what's in it

1540
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,000
for me. And that's just there's nothing to pay attention

1541
01:18:15,079 --> 01:18:18,159
to anywhere else. It's just it's got to be a

1542
01:18:18,199 --> 01:18:20,600
lonely world to living in. That Like if I had

1543
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,600
never found quote nature or plants, I'd be so fucking

1544
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:24,960
miserable man too.

1545
01:18:25,279 --> 01:18:26,279
Speaker 2: I mean, it's everything to.

1546
01:18:26,239 --> 01:18:30,520
Speaker 1: Me, geology, any of that, any like context for an ecosystem,

1547
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:32,800
because all you know is the human world. Then that's

1548
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:34,720
the only thing you've got. That's all you've got, and

1549
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:39,680
that's what people think of me and successful or exactly.

1550
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:41,079
Speaker 2: That's your that's your entire costs.

1551
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: The proper existence it is, no matter what, no no

1552
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:46,960
way around it. That's not just like a matter of opinion.

1553
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:47,239
That's it.

1554
01:18:47,279 --> 01:18:50,079
Speaker 2: The proper existence, I think, oh absolutely. And most people

1555
01:18:50,079 --> 01:18:52,079
are so caught up in that they don't even see it.

1556
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 1: Or they just yeah, or they're completely severed from the land.

1557
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:55,960
They never get the opportunity of.

1558
01:18:56,039 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 2: Experience and it so this, you know, the nature deficit

1559
01:18:59,039 --> 01:19:02,439
disorder rampant, and we don't even know how deep seated

1560
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:06,800
those effects are, but they're studies that have been done

1561
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:09,600
so that there's it's very significant. So, you know, lots

1562
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,319
of people that live in New York have never gotten

1563
01:19:11,319 --> 01:19:13,760
out of the city. I mean Central Park.

1564
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: Is it?

1565
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, And uh, you know, most urbanites really are just

1566
01:19:18,199 --> 01:19:23,640
so disconnected from the natural world that, uh, they you know,

1567
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:25,640
it's almost like they live on a different planet.

1568
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:28,039
Speaker 1: But I see a lot in cities like that, in

1569
01:19:28,119 --> 01:19:31,840
cities like New York and in Chicago, it said, I

1570
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,119
see like much more reverence for land than I almost

1571
01:19:35,159 --> 01:19:37,279
see in a rural area. Yeah, they want, they want

1572
01:19:37,319 --> 01:19:39,359
to get out to see it. They know, they know

1573
01:19:39,399 --> 01:19:40,800
they're from it.

1574
01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 2: They see the value.

1575
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like they would see someone bulldozing a patch of

1576
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:46,319
ranch and I'd be like, oh my god, what are

1577
01:19:46,359 --> 01:19:48,199
you doing? Like we don't have that where I come from,

1578
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:51,600
whereas here it's just it's abundant. Just fucking get rid

1579
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:53,119
of it. That's the thing they do in stuff, because

1580
01:19:53,159 --> 01:19:56,000
they clear land before they sell it. Dumbest shit imagine

1581
01:19:56,199 --> 01:19:58,319
of course, like what it's it's like one hundred and

1582
01:19:58,359 --> 01:20:00,880
five degreasier for six months? Why are you clearing that land?

1583
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,319
That land is keeping everything else cool? What it is?

1584
01:20:04,359 --> 01:20:06,399
It is what they do. It's it's so what they

1585
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:09,920
do and be just profoundly stupid. That's the thing that

1586
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:11,560
drives me. That's why I'm like, damn, is it like

1587
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,640
letting the water supply when they're doing this or something?

1588
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,640
Or how the fuck does you know? You got to think, like,

1589
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:20,680
you know, you bill yourself as supposedly I'm a ranch

1590
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,720
and I'm working the land. Well, then you would know

1591
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:28,479
that having vegetative cover over barren rock is going to

1592
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:32,199
cool the whole landscape, whereas if it's just the rocket

1593
01:20:32,199 --> 01:20:34,840
and eat it up by the sun, you're creating a

1594
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:35,760
heat island, you.

1595
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 2: Know, right, and it's going to cause erosion. And it's

1596
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:41,560
you know, two plus two equals three. Man.

1597
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,239
Speaker 1: It's just you know, I don't know.

1598
01:20:43,359 --> 01:20:48,560
Speaker 2: It's almost like it's almost like asserting control and dominance.

1599
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:49,720
Speaker 1: It is it is.

1600
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,600
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, we've dominated this is this has been transformed.

1601
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:53,640
It's open and I've.

1602
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:56,119
Speaker 1: Been a ranchers down there like that which is my land.

1603
01:20:56,159 --> 01:20:59,760
I'm working it like it's illegal. Then I see these dudes,

1604
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,199
I'm like, holy fuck you, like sixty years of unaddressed

1605
01:21:03,239 --> 01:21:07,000
mental trauma, mental and emotional trauma, you've never gone to therapy.

1606
01:21:07,039 --> 01:21:09,199
You probably think going to therapy makes you a pussy.

1607
01:21:09,359 --> 01:21:12,399
Like you're a fucking wreck, man, no offense. I could

1608
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:14,439
see it though. You know, I've like traveled and I've

1609
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:16,560
met enough people like that. I worked with dudes like

1610
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:19,000
that at the railroad, Like you're a fucking wreck, you know, like,

1611
01:21:19,119 --> 01:21:20,760
oh my god, I feel bad, but you like get

1612
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,079
some help, you know, before you crack. But it's a shah,

1613
01:21:24,119 --> 01:21:26,680
it's a shame. Man. Well what do you think is

1614
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,479
in the what do you think is in the future

1615
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:32,479
for this reason for West Texas.

1616
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, man, that's a good question because

1617
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:36,600
I I just have no idea.

1618
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:39,399
Speaker 1: Where the continent starts to dry out as you move west.

1619
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:41,760
It's like the first big patch of air Atlanta as

1620
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,039
he moved west. It is.

1621
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 2: You know, I think we're due for some major transformations here.

1622
01:21:48,159 --> 01:21:48,560
Speaker 1: Uh.

1623
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 2: You know, COVID had a big impact just because we've

1624
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:54,159
had a lot of people move in and a lot

1625
01:21:54,159 --> 01:21:57,039
of first time records, you know, people that had never

1626
01:21:57,079 --> 01:22:00,199
been here before. Were coming out and recreating and and

1627
01:22:00,199 --> 01:22:02,159
didn't have a clue about what to do and how

1628
01:22:02,199 --> 01:22:02,520
to bang.

1629
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I went there at twenty fourteen.

1630
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:07,680
It was desolate. There was nobody there. And I've tried

1631
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,119
going there two years ago. Yeah, it was just a

1632
01:22:10,159 --> 01:22:12,199
fucking mess. That was like no way man.

1633
01:22:12,359 --> 01:22:14,279
Speaker 2: So that's that's changed the landscape, you know, and it

1634
01:22:14,319 --> 01:22:17,079
not so much affected you know, Marfa Alpine and Marathon.

1635
01:22:17,199 --> 01:22:19,800
It's mostly down into Lingua.

1636
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,199
Speaker 1: But getting I mean everything's getting more. Marathons had a

1637
01:22:23,239 --> 01:22:25,600
bunch of development in the last few years I've noticed,

1638
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:30,720
which is cool in some ways, but it just is. Yeah,

1639
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,279
there's more population coming here. I just hope it means

1640
01:22:33,359 --> 01:22:36,880
it means the land. Yeah, there's more, there's more people. Yeah,

1641
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,119
so that's happening. You know, there's so those and those

1642
01:22:39,119 --> 01:22:43,319
people bring different values, good or bad. And then of

1643
01:22:43,319 --> 01:22:46,199
course we've got dealing with global climate change, and because

1644
01:22:46,199 --> 01:22:50,359
we're situated where we are, we stand to be, you know,

1645
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:53,720
significantly affected by that. We don't know how or in

1646
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:57,119
what direction, most likely by drying out, hotter and drier.

1647
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:00,960
But we've also witnessed more intense storm of it. So

1648
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:04,399
down in Redford, where I spent a lot of time.

1649
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:07,279
We've gotten almost no rain in the last two years,

1650
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:09,920
with two exceptions. And those two exceptions was a two

1651
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:13,119
and a three inch rainfall that happened within the first

1652
01:23:13,159 --> 01:23:15,119
one within about an hour, and the second one with

1653
01:23:15,239 --> 01:23:18,640
over a period of four or five hours. Wow, massive

1654
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:23,520
rainfall events that basically blows out, you know, irrigation works

1655
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,319
blows out, Yeah, all the rain at once in the

1656
01:23:26,359 --> 01:23:28,600
desert where there's no vegetative.

1657
01:23:28,039 --> 01:23:30,600
Speaker 2: Covered a whole water. It flooded out a friend of

1658
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:35,560
mine that it reworks the the drainages, it blows out,

1659
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:40,479
you know, all kinds of dams and things like that.

1660
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:43,640
They're meant to contain water, slow it down. Even on

1661
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,600
my own property where I've made all these little, you know,

1662
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:51,359
burms and basins to catch the rain. Water they're meant for,

1663
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:53,760
you know, they're kind of built for a one or

1664
01:23:54,279 --> 01:23:56,760
may maybe a two inch rain. They can't take more

1665
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,960
than that. It just the volume just blows them out.

1666
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,479
So I end up, you know, rebuilding those and then

1667
01:24:04,279 --> 01:24:07,600
we're looking at them dry out in the sweltering heat

1668
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,600
for the next nine months. There's no brain and so

1669
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:14,600
I'm walking around with the water hose until we get

1670
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:15,800
the next you know, to lose.

1671
01:24:16,079 --> 01:24:17,359
Speaker 1: Where is Redford exactly?

1672
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about twenty miles east of Presidio. Oh wow,

1673
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:24,239
right on the river. It's basically the last sort of

1674
01:24:24,399 --> 01:24:28,800
Mexican village on the US side that's still intact, meaning

1675
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:33,960
it's got most of its you know, the original families,

1676
01:24:34,039 --> 01:24:37,520
the descendants of the original families are still there, which

1677
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:41,239
is cool and significant because the same was true for

1678
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:45,960
Candelaria ridosa. But they've those populations love along since left

1679
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:49,800
and it's there, don't They don't resemble anything of their

1680
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,800
former cells. And that was true because you know, the

1681
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,640
elephant Butte Dam, Yeah, impounded the water, and so the

1682
01:24:57,319 --> 01:25:00,319
water in that portion of the Rio Grande minute to

1683
01:25:00,359 --> 01:25:03,680
such an extent that farming was no longer viable. Because

1684
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:07,319
the Rio Grands are replenished by the real conscious which

1685
01:25:07,359 --> 01:25:11,279
comes out of Mexico at Prosidio, everything downstream from there

1686
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,520
still gets a flow. And so that means that the

1687
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:19,239
farms in the Redford Bolsama in Redford and Mulatto on

1688
01:25:19,279 --> 01:25:24,279
the Mexican side still exist. You know, there's still limited

1689
01:25:24,279 --> 01:25:26,640
farming on the US side, but they still farm all

1690
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:29,159
the fields in Mexico, they're still pulling water from the

1691
01:25:29,199 --> 01:25:33,600
rio and so, you know, that makes it interesting, you know,

1692
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:39,159
kind of culturally, and I appreciate that aspect down there.

1693
01:25:39,199 --> 01:25:41,439
But the main thing I love about it, and I'll

1694
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:44,439
have to admit, is that we're surrounded by the nash

1695
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,439
by the state park down there, and so I can

1696
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,039
be hiking within you know, very short drive and I'm

1697
01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:52,399
hiking you know, out in the open desert, or I

1698
01:25:52,399 --> 01:25:55,359
can be on the river in twenty minutes. And that's

1699
01:25:55,399 --> 01:25:57,600
where it's at for me. You know, I really need

1700
01:25:58,319 --> 01:26:00,920
for my own self, I need access to big lands.

1701
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:04,039
And maybe it was Montana that spoiled me, but I

1702
01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:06,760
think it was way before that. I just, you know,

1703
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,560
I realized at a very young age that the earth,

1704
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,640
the natural world, was probably the most important thing in

1705
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:16,720
my life to me, and and so I've always you know,

1706
01:26:17,279 --> 01:26:19,920
fought for the right to be in it, to protect it.

1707
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,680
It's just it's every it's everything to me. So being

1708
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,399
down there is it's just kind of a dream, really,

1709
01:26:27,119 --> 01:26:27,680
it really is.

1710
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,239
Speaker 1: Big ben Rats is something else that's that's an amazing.

1711
01:26:31,359 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 2: Is amazing, it's a very it's an underutilized resource. I'm

1712
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:40,000
glad it's underutilized. I hope it doesn't get overrun. Has

1713
01:26:40,159 --> 01:26:43,640
very little infrastructure compared to the national part, and I

1714
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:45,720
think that, you know, their intent is to keep it

1715
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:48,000
that way, and it really does help kind of thin

1716
01:26:48,079 --> 01:26:52,039
out the population, uh, because it's it's kind of harder

1717
01:26:52,039 --> 01:26:55,359
to get into and we like it that way. I

1718
01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:59,079
really hope it stays. It's an incredible asset down there,

1719
01:26:59,199 --> 01:27:00,000
both of those parks.

1720
01:27:00,239 --> 01:27:02,680
Speaker 1: How was that I went to the Solitario I think

1721
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:05,680
the southwest side of it to get to give photos

1722
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,359
of Quarcus Hinkley I have may It was a year

1723
01:27:07,359 --> 01:27:10,800
and a half ago. Yeah, that was something else that's crazy.

1724
01:27:11,039 --> 01:27:15,479
There's that one rock shelter there with the hands.

1725
01:27:15,119 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Prince, Yeah, it's it's incredible and all kinds

1726
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:23,479
of archaeology. Good buddy Tim who actually the guy who

1727
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:25,520
called me on the phone, you know, twenty five years

1728
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:27,840
ago about that job at the center. He is now

1729
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:32,119
the park archaeologist down there, so I get regular updates

1730
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:36,319
on stuff he's finding, and I get to volunteer and

1731
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:38,600
help him out down there on some of his projects.

1732
01:27:39,159 --> 01:27:39,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1733
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:43,000
Speaker 2: It's it's really great, but an incredible place. And of

1734
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:47,239
course the River Road when seventy runs along the real

1735
01:27:47,279 --> 01:27:50,079
ground there and there's a bunch of great campsites and

1736
01:27:50,439 --> 01:27:53,920
put ins and takeouts on the river there that you

1737
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:56,039
you really don't have the same access in the National

1738
01:27:56,079 --> 01:27:57,800
Park that you do in the State Park. Yeah, it's

1739
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:00,520
a lot easier to get to subscribe.

1740
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:02,920
Speaker 1: Man, that's cool. Man, thanks a lot for being down

1741
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:03,439
to come on this.

1742
01:28:04,279 --> 01:28:06,399
Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate you asking me, and hopefully I

1743
01:28:06,399 --> 01:28:08,920
have been helpful, but no, it's been great man. Yeah,

1744
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:09,199
I want.

1745
01:28:09,239 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's all. That's There's a lot of ship

1746
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,159
to talk about in West Texas. We keep going, but yeah,

1747
01:28:14,279 --> 01:28:16,079
we'll have to do another one sometimes. Yeah. Man, Well,

1748
01:28:16,079 --> 01:28:17,880
thanks a lot, appreciate it, right, everybody else, have a

1749
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:19,359
graciate day. Go fuck you somebody,