WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:05.360 You want to have great facts because appellate courts, you 2 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:09.759 know very much, will pick apart bad facts and use 3 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.359 it to make bad law, or will not even give 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.079 you the answer you on on a legal question. If 5 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.359 there are bad facts, and so that's what the sec 6 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.960 has here, you know, it's better to take an FTX 7 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:26.079 or a do quon case like that up to up 8 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:28.920 to an appeal, and that would just be a lot safer. 9 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:37.719 This content is brought to you by v chain, which 10 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:42.000 is a leading enterprise grade Layer one public blockchain spearheading 11 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.759 a digital revolution from a sustainable, highly scalable smart contract platform. 12 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.560 The v chain blockchain has many unique features which makes 13 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.280 it an ideal choice for Web three applications. V chain 14 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:58.119 is working with many great enterprises such as PwC, Gvonci, 15 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.240 BMW and Walmart China. Most recently, they partnered with the 16 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:08.400 Boston Consulting Group to build a revolutionary decentralized application ecosystem. 17 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.400 I'm a big believer in this project. I have been 18 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.519 since twenty eighteen. I've been a VET token holder for years, 19 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:19.239 and this blockchain is highly scalable, great with security and speed, 20 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.840 and it has low energy consumption. If you'd like To 21 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:26.120 learn more about v chain, please visit vchain dot org. 22 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:28.719 Link will be in a description. Welcome into the Thinking 23 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.319 Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and with me 24 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.239 is attorney Fred Rispoli, who's the founder of Hoddle Law. 25 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:34.840 Fred. 26 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:35.480 Great to see you. 27 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:37.879 It is great to be back Tony. 28 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:40.959 Fred. Of course, we got the big news yesterday of 29 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:45.040 the SEC Ripple lawsuit ruling and the SEC getting one 30 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:47.359 hundred and twenty five million dollars, and I want to 31 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.640 get your take on it, you know, walk us through 32 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:51.280 the ruling and the outcomes here. 33 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:55.519 All right, Well, it's you know, I've had a day 34 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.719 to sleep on it and think about it, and there's 35 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.400 a lot more nuance in there that you know I 36 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.239 was picking up on. And I really have to give 37 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:08.360 Judge Torres credit for the way she attacked this, because 38 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:11.319 not only did she do it well on the legal side, 39 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:16.319 but she also did it well to give each side 40 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.280 enough of what they want and also fearful enough of 41 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.159 what could be lost to really question whether there's gonna 42 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.039 be an appeal here on this one. And I'll get 43 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.680 into that, you know, generally, as we go through. But 44 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.639 you know, the bottom line is the order stands for 45 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:40.879 the proposition that Ripple did not do anything with bad intent, 46 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:45.439 or it'll repute, so to speak. So the penalty was 47 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:47.479 on the lower side. It was a little bit higher 48 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:49.719 than I thought it was going to be, but it 49 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:53.000 was still low in comparison to the two billion dollars 50 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.479 being sought, and so you know, that's huge. The second thing, 51 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.919 and actually this is probably the most sortant thing, is 52 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.840 that the order that the sec had wanted the judge 53 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:08.680 to sign, the one they drafted and gave the judge, 54 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.360 was rejected by the court, and the court went with 55 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:19.759 a very generic order that essentially says, you are enjoined 56 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:24.120 from violating section five of the securities laws going forward. 57 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.080 And you know, guess what. You know, we haven't been 58 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.919 you and me, we haven't been sued by the SEC yet, 59 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.159 but we're also enjoined from violating section five of the 60 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:39.159 Federal securities Law. So it is, you know, something that 61 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.560 is as basic as it can be about you know, 62 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.919 what they're prohibited from in this injunction. And it does 63 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:53.080 leave a lot up for question as to what Ripple 64 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:57.439 can and can't do going forward, But it doesn't explicitly, 65 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:04.120 you know, by or it doesn't explicitly destroy their business model, 66 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.639 which is what the SEC was going for in this, 67 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.800 and in fact it when it stayed far away from that, 68 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.319 and that was, you know, the best takeaway out of this. 69 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:16.839 So FREDI, you know, let's say we go back to 70 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.160 twenty twenty when this thing was filed. Obviously, they seemed 71 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.079 to be some personal I don't know, vendettas or shots 72 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.399 here because they went after Brad and Chris right and 73 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.639 they made it seem like Ripple was doing this massive 74 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.000 fraud scheme or something like that when it was far 75 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.040 from that. So did the SEC kind of shoot itself 76 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.480 in its foot by going adding all these things to 77 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.120 this case versus saying, hey, your institutional sales are problems. 78 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:52.959 Let's talk. Yeah, the SEC, which it normally does, decided, 79 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:57.319 let's go big, big guns going into this suit, and 80 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.439 we're going to throw in in the individuals and we're 81 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.519 going to throw our full weight behind this and try 82 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.560 and scare them into a settlement on our terms. Rebels survived, 83 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.879 decided to fight. Most companies don't, and they survived the 84 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:16.560 initial onslaught, and then after surviving that onslaught, you know, 85 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:19.839 they just got better and better for them as the 86 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:24.600 litigation went on, and you know, people forget the whole 87 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.360 People don't forget the ethery and free pass, but some 88 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:31.800 people maybe forget or don't know that when Bill Henman 89 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:36.240 left the sec or and said even before he left 90 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.360 and said I'm going to retire by this date, he 91 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:44.120 continually went back and talked to people at the SEC 92 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:48.720 and really shepherded the decision to sue Ripple, really pushed 93 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:52.720 it through, trying to make sure everybody says, even though 94 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:54.759 we're all leaving, you guys got to still be on 95 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:58.680 board with this and file this suit and then left 96 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.160 and hoping it was all going to go to plan. 97 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.920 And I mean it did take a very long time, 98 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.639 but four years later it did not go the way 99 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:07.319 they were hoping. 100 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.360 So XRP declared intrinsically not a security. Brad and Chris, 101 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:16.079 you know that case has been dropped. The SEC gets 102 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:19.920 one hundred and twenty five million dollars. Ripple seems to 103 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.000 have walked away with the lion's share of the victory. 104 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:25.600 Here. Would you agree with that? I would, and I 105 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:29.079 would disagree with the people who are out there saying 106 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:34.519 their business model is significantly damaged or their ODL model 107 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.560 is significantly damaged. I just don't see that based on 108 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:42.839 what the ruling was, what the pleadings were going into it. 109 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.040 You know, we can get into that, of course, but 110 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.879 and also you know how the company has responded in 111 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:54.959 you know, since the since the order came out. 112 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:59.519 So I guess the big question I have is can 113 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.480 Ripple sell XRP to institutional investors, so let's say Black 114 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:06.959 Rock or whatever right in the United States? I'm assuming no, 115 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.240 But can they do it internationally? It seems like they can. 116 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.879 Well, I would argue that they can do it in 117 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.680 the US and outside of the US a lot easier, 118 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:21.360 but even inside the US, and the issue with inside 119 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:27.279 and what is specifically prohibited is really depends on what 120 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.800 risk that Ripple wants to take. So you have to 121 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.279 go back to the summary judgment ruling from a year 122 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:40.120 ago when the judge said institutional sales are what is illegal, 123 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:47.319 and the judge casually lumped in ODL in that category, 124 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.040 and there was never really further discussion on that, and 125 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.600 then we went into the specifics of what all those 126 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:57.680 institutional sales were, so what they are definitely enjoined from 127 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:02.519 going forward that there's no question is exactly what happened 128 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.759 as set forth in those pleadings and described, you know, 129 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:12.519 with all the evidence, the contracts, everything, that is what's enjoined. 130 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:17.920 And so Ripple can make an argument saying, are sales 131 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:21.360 to other companies of XRP here, even in the US 132 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.839 are so far outside of what we got punished for. 133 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:30.120 It's just not an investment contract. And the only thing 134 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.840 that happens there is that the sec gets wind of 135 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:38.159 it and they tell Ripple to stop, and Rypple says, no, 136 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.879 these are not what we were prevented from doing. And 137 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:46.360 there's a court order that says we are not specifically 138 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.120 prevented from this. And I'm talking about the judgment, I guess, 139 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.039 and the order itself. So the judgment is the two 140 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.559 or three page document. The order is the fifteen page 141 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:02.919 legal reasoning. You know. The judge there is where it 142 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:05.960 gets a little you know, again, this is what this 143 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.720 is what I do appreciate Judge Torres doing. Is where 144 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:13.519 she gave enough to both sides, so she I'm gonna 145 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.639 just look at it so I don't talk too crazy. 146 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:19.799 But you know, Ripple said, hey, get ODL out of 147 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:24.960 this order. And the judge said in her ruling yesterday. Well, 148 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:29.200 you know that I had ODL in the institutional sales bucket. 149 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.679 You're telling me it's different. Just because you tell me 150 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.399 it's different, I'm not buying it. But in the very 151 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:40.039 next sentence she says, I'm also not not buying it. 152 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.039 So you know, she's saying, I'm not going to say 153 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:48.279 that everything you're doing now is totally fine. In fact, 154 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.480 you may you may have still been violating the law. 155 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:54.159 I'm just going to tell you that you know you're 156 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:57.519 in for a real whoopan' if if the SEC brings 157 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.159 you back here and I find what you're doing is 158 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.159 is outside is still within the scope of what I 159 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.799 told you not to do. So yes, I would argue 160 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.679 they can still sell XRP within the US, even without 161 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.559 registration and without an exemption. But you know, it depends 162 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.919 on how much Ripple wants to play that to the line, 163 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:22.039 and it depends on how much it's clients want to 164 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:25.360 play that to the line. Although the clients don't really 165 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:27.679 need to worry because none of them were taken a 166 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:31.159 court and they made lots of money, even the ones 167 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.000 way back that we're at issue in the institutional sales 168 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:37.960 they made a lot of money on this, so you know, 169 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:42.919 they're very much in the clear. And it really comes 170 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.840 down to what we're ultimately going to see is you know, 171 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.440 there are a lot of people saying Ripple only sells 172 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.759 XRP and that's its business model and it dumps onto retail. 173 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.759 There's other people that say, when once the switch is flipped, 174 00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:59.480 you know, everything's going to go to the moon. And 175 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:04.159 now is in a position where the emergency cover over 176 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.919 the switch has now been unlocked. And so we're going 177 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:13.639 to see what was Ripple just for lack of a 178 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:17.480 better word, blowing smoke or do they have a sustainable 179 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:21.960 business model that they can now accelerate into serious growth. 180 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.360 And you know, I believe that they do and they 181 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.080 do have a strong business model. But we're going to 182 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.559 see great point. 183 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:31.799 Now, there was a question from the community, and I 184 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.919 have thoughts around this as well. So let's say institutions 185 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.480 are accredited right there, they have all the licenses and 186 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:44.200 all these things. Why can't Ripple specifically sell to black 187 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.799 Rock and that be a securities transactions, but it doesn't 188 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.000 affect the rest of the x RP in the open 189 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:52.919 market or the XRP ledger can they just get a 190 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:58.600 license for that aspect of the transaction, know if that 191 00:11:58.639 --> 00:11:59.120 makes sense. 192 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:03.080 Yeah. So here's where I know enough securities law to 193 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.600 be dangerous because there it is incredibly complex when you 194 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.799 get into all the rules and specific exemptions. And I'm 195 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.159 just not an expert there, but based on my knowledge 196 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.440 and understanding, if you're going to get an exemption, I 197 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.440 don't you don't even need to register some of those exemptions. 198 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.039 You just you know, have a good faith belief that 199 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.519 you fall within there. And again it would be up 200 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.720 to the sec to figure it out and take Ripple 201 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.960 back to court saying you're in contempt of disorder. You 202 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.440 know by doing this. This is not an exemption. This 203 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:43.679 is an institutional sale that requires registration. And so what 204 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.840 Ripple can do? You know, if they go to exemption route, 205 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:50.399 there's certain exemptions that they can't do because they've already 206 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.840 gotten in trouble by the court. And when you get 207 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.720 in trouble and have that type of injunction, it removes 208 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:00.759 some exemptions. And then it also could cause a problem 209 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:04.200 because if you buy the XRP under an exemption, you 210 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.919 can't resell it unless there's another exemption. And so that 211 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.440 could make it a little more complicated, but it is 212 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.080 one route that they could go through, is you know, 213 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.480 the accredited investor exemption process. 214 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.679 Now, big question people want to or have, I should say, 215 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.919 what's going to happen with the appeals? Will ripple and 216 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:25.120 the SEC both appeal? 217 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.639 So I I think that, I mean, it is as 218 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:33.759 close to a fifty to fifty as you can get, 219 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:38.600 although I'm going to lean towards not appealing just because 220 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:43.240 I think there's too many factors that if the SEC 221 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.399 is wise and smart, which also is an issue that 222 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:50.519 people might significantly disagree with me on and I probably 223 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:55.879 disagree with me on that too, is that this isn't 224 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.919 really the best case to take up. When you're going 225 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.039 to do an appeal, you want to have great facts 226 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.960 because appellate courts, you know very much, will pick apart 227 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.480 bad facts and use it to make bad law, or 228 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.200 will not even give you the answer you want on 229 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:18.159 a legal question if there are bad facts. And so 230 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.960 that's what the SEC has here. You know, it's better 231 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:25.039 to take an FTX or a do quon case like 232 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.840 that up to up to an appeal, and that would 233 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:32.759 just be a lot safer. So that's point number one 234 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:36.480 factor one against an appeal. I think the penalty, you know, 235 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.759 looking back, was probably a great call by the judge 236 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.519 because it's if the penalty was too high, Ripple would 237 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.360 surely appeal. If the penalty was too low, the SEC 238 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:52.240 surely would appeal. And you know, now on this the 239 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.679 again going back to the facts issue, the SEC's got 240 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.919 to go back up to the Second Circuit and say 241 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:01.679 say that the discouragement of zero rout was a problem. Well, 242 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.200 the Second Circuit already said that there can be zero disgorgement. 243 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.480 You've got a case where there was no investors that 244 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.480 said they were harmed, and so the Second Circuit is 245 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.000 just going to strengthen that opinion. And that is where 246 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.360 the SEC loves filing cases is in New York, which 247 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.039 is under the Second District. So that's a bad idea 248 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:28.519 to appeal there. You know, on the appeal it side, 249 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:33.720 Ripple can argue that there is no you know, essential 250 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.480 ingredient to the contracts that they argued at the summary 251 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.519 judgment and loss. That's not a very clear cut winner 252 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:46.320 case right there for them, And the SEC would want 253 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:49.480 to appeal the secondary market issue, which is, you know, 254 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:52.039 that's the one thing that is driving whether they should 255 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:56.559 appeal or not is we got to get that off 256 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.440 the books for the secondary market, because you know, that's 257 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.919 critical to how we do this, how we run our 258 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:09.559 enforcement actions, you know, anywhere with crypto and so you know, 259 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.840 you could you could get a situation though, where they decide, well, 260 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.799 let's let's appeal the Binance one where they said no 261 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:23.559 secondary markets with this exchange, and let the XRP one stand, 262 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.399 and then XRP and Ribble would be in a unique 263 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:31.480 one off where those facts have been decided and not appealed, 264 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.919 and you could conceivably, three or four years get a 265 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:41.639 ruling that secondary sales are securities generally, and only XRP 266 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.480 is now, you know, completely protected from that because that 267 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.519 aspect of it wouldn't be able to be changed, or 268 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.720 at least a very strong argument that any future decision 269 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.600 doesn't affect that aspect of this ripple ruling. So there's 270 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:58.200 a lot going on, and then there's also the political 271 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:00.559 side of it. You know, I was starting to get 272 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.039 worried when I missed my prediction by seven days that 273 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.440 maybe the sec or that the court was saying, you 274 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.079 know what if I wait until early September to issue 275 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:14.240 a ruling. The SEC doesn't have to make a decision 276 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.359 on the appeal until after the election. You know, the 277 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.480 Judge Tours has never kind of signaled doing anything like 278 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:24.240 that or having those kinds of thoughts go through in 279 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:26.720 her ruling. So it was, you know, but it did 280 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.119 start to creep into my mind, but she didn't. And 281 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.599 so now the SEC has to make that decision and 282 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:35.680 ripple two by you know, early October. And so if 283 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.599 they do, I mean to be to be honest, in 284 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.640 US politics, a lot of people start making their minds 285 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.599 up the month before the election. That's when things get 286 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.920 really crazy. That's why there's a term called the October surprise. 287 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.039 And so if the SEC has to file a notice 288 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:58.039 of appeal early October, every pro crypto force can say, 289 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.720 this is another example, don't believe the reset. Don't believe 290 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.319 you know anything that this campaign is telling you. They're 291 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.720 anti crypto, and so that's just that's a political headache 292 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.000 that they would have to deal with. 293 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.359 Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that because in 294 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.000 the context of everything that's been going on over the 295 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.440 past four to five months, I mean, you got Donald Trump, 296 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:22.279 our presidential candidate calling out the head of the SEC, 297 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.119 you know, and saying he would fire him, and so forth. 298 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:29.400 You got Democrats turning on Elizabeth warning Gary gains Her, 299 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.359 and then there seems to be some sort of capitulation 300 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.640 with the SEC. They dropped the case against the Binance 301 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.279 stable coin, they dropped the case against Stax, they dropped 302 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.680 the investigation against Etherorem, they approved the etherom metfs, and 303 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.359 then there was rumors of the Binance us case. They're 304 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.960 pulling out tokens like Solana Cardano and so forth. So 305 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:51.079 something is happening here. Maybe that political pressure will influence 306 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:51.640 if they. 307 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:57.119 Appeal or not. Yeah, there is foreshore political pressure, and 308 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.039 they eventually some of these things will come out to 309 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.359 the public. Some of these things will never know. There 310 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.759 was extraordinary political The reason the ethery of METF got 311 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.960 approved was because of political pressure. And you know, it'll 312 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.240 be I guess probably not shocking to anybody in the 313 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.200 XRP community when they hear how that went down, you know, 314 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.880 when that eventually comes out. But there's other things going 315 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:26.359 on that are just phone calls, meetings. During you know, 316 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.480 at a lunch at a popular lunch spot in New Downtown, 317 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.519 you know New York. I'm sorry to all my New 318 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.000 York fans out there for not using the right boroughs 319 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.240 and whatnot. But wherever the courthouse is, and in New York, 320 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.400 you know all the lunch spots around there, and you 321 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:45.279 know in d C. And in the suburbs, and you know, 322 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.839 down in all those hangouts where they're having these conversations. 323 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:50.759 And so you know, it's sad because that's not the 324 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.440 rule of law, but that has always happened, you know, 325 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.200 in America and otherwise you know where you have these conversations, 326 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:01.400 and so that's happened. But you know, it's a battle 327 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.519 right now between which faction is going to win out 328 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.039 in terms of pro crypto or anti crypto. And it's 329 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.200 been very encouraging the last couple of weeks and a 330 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.039 couple of months, but you know, you really have to 331 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.640 push forward. And you know, anybody that's very pro crypto, 332 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.119 I would just say, and I'm doing this. I'm voting 333 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.920 on single issue pro crypto candidates. You know, in my elections. 334 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:30.119 I'm out here in California and nationally because if I 335 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.400 get super rich from crypto, everything I care about all 336 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.720 these other things. I care about social, economic issues. I 337 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.480 can do a lot more being super rich than I 338 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.799 can be just being you know, you know where I 339 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:45.359 am now. 340 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.000 Yeah, and I've brought up that point that first and 341 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.519 foremost people are trying to survive. You have to have shelter, food, 342 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.680 and you everybody's trying to increase their lifestyle right and 343 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.640 make it better. And while there are other issues in 344 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.559 this e lite, if you, like you said, are able 345 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.599 to grow your wealth and become more financially free, you 346 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.880 can then start to address some of those secondary tertiary 347 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.319 issues that you care about. But you can't do that 348 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.680 if you're you know, not able to create that opportunity. 349 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.559 Yeah, exactly. I mean at the end of the day, 350 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.599 you know what does happen and why, you know, short 351 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.720 of getting drafted and sent off to war or you know, 352 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.839 having federal forces or state forces show up at your 353 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:31.400 doorstep and take you away to jail, there's not much 354 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.160 you can do now that's to change things. Now, that 355 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:38.000 doesn't mean give up and you know, not get involved 356 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.640 at all, but just recognize what your limitation is and 357 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.319 recognize kind of what you can do with whatever your 358 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.440 your circumstances are. And you know that changes if you 359 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.240 have a family, don't have a family, or a business owner, 360 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.880 not a business owner. But you know, the bottom line 361 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:56.039 is the more resources that you have, the more change 362 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.839 you can make. And you know that's just something. And 363 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.480 if the way you're going to get resources is with 364 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.160 crypto appreciating vastly, then you just got to solely focus 365 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:09.839 on that side of the wing. On the political election side. 366 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.799 Final question herefore, I let you go, what are the 367 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.960 odds or have the odds increase of an XRP ETF 368 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.240 being approved by the SEC? Given that this thing is 369 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.599 wrapping up, and look, I'm not talking this year, but 370 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.000 maybe next year, what do you think about that? 371 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.279 I definitely think it goes up because I think there'll 372 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:32.319 be a new regime next year. Even regardless of who wins, 373 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.519 I think things will shift around. And I think that, 374 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:39.839 you know, even if you know on the Republican side, 375 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.359 we've got the candidate saying he's going to be extremely 376 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.640 pro crypto, the great thing about not being in office 377 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.720 is you can say whatever you want. And you know, 378 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:53.440 we know that Trump's record was not very pro crypto 379 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:57.759 twenty sixteen through twenty twenty. Granted it's been much worse 380 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.240 under the current regime. But those are the facts, and 381 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:05.240 people can change, and I hope that Trump has changed 382 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:09.519 on that topic. But I also think that all the 383 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.039 money that is coming into crypto candidates. I mean, there 384 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.160 was a very well known Democratic congresswoman, Corey Bush who 385 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.799 just lost her primary. You know, there's a lot of 386 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.319 factors that went into that. But what people are sleeping 387 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.599 on is that fair Shake spend a couple million or 388 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.119 at least over a million trying to get her out 389 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.279 because she was anti crypto, and so that's a message. 390 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.119 When you are an incumbent and you lose a primary, 391 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:39.000 that is noticed in the halls of Congress, and so 392 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.559 you're going to get a favorable and more favorable than 393 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:47.079 where it is now regime from the Democrats, you know, 394 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.000 if they win the election. And so I do think 395 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:56.640 the chances of the XRP ETF have gone up. It'll 396 00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:58.880 be a little bit of a kick in the stomach 397 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:01.880 to see us ALTA one go first. But I do 398 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.759 think XRP is going to be in the top five 399 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:06.279 for ETFs. 400 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.599 Yeah, I agreed, And you know, on that fair Shake 401 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.400