WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.030 --> 00:00:06.089 This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:16.969 --> 00:00:19.929 The bizarre case of Kelly Wilson's disappearance shocked all of 3 00:00:20.010 --> 00:00:23.140 East Texas when new indictments were handed down Friday. Prosecutor 4 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:25.839 Scott Leifert says today he's confident about the evidence he 5 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.070 has to go to trial with. And he says the 6 00:00:28.129 --> 00:00:30.050 evidence is more than circumstantial. 7 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:34.380 Evidence in regard to Kelly Wilson came up in the 8 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:38.070 course of the investigation that we were doing on the 9 00:00:38.149 --> 00:00:40.729 sexual abuse of the children that had been taken away 10 00:00:40.789 --> 00:00:44.310 from the different members of the Kerr family. We think 11 00:00:44.350 --> 00:00:46.369 that there may be more victims, but we don't have 12 00:00:46.429 --> 00:00:50.000 any concrete evidence. We don't have any particular missing people 13 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.500 that we're looking for. That's part of the investigation that 14 00:00:53.539 --> 00:00:54.460 we've got to go into. 15 00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.570 Over a two-day period in late January 1994, A grand 16 00:01:00.630 --> 00:01:05.409 jury in Gilmer, Texas, indicted eight people for the kidnapping, rape, 17 00:01:05.870 --> 00:01:09.579 and murder of Kelly Day Wilson, a local teenager who'd 18 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:13.379 been missing for more than two years. Among the indicted 19 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:17.420 were five members of a local family, the Kers. Needless 20 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:20.590 to say, the news shocked all of us in East Texas. 21 00:01:21.469 --> 00:01:24.569 Most bizarre of all were details found not in the 22 00:01:24.609 --> 00:01:28.239 indictments themselves, but in the affidavit for a search warrant 23 00:01:28.420 --> 00:01:31.799 executed on the Kerr family property in the woods outside 24 00:01:31.819 --> 00:01:36.040 of Gilmer. In the affidavit, investigators claimed that members of 25 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.159 the Kerr family were leaders of a cult that forced 26 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:43.780 their own children to participate in satanic rituals, including the 27 00:01:43.819 --> 00:01:48.000 sacrifice of babies. If the children ever told anyone the 28 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:51.969 same thing or worse would happen to them. In cahoots 29 00:01:51.989 --> 00:01:56.099 with the Kerrs, allegedly, was none other than James York Brown, 30 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:58.780 the Gilmer cop who'd been leading the search for Kelly 31 00:01:59.159 --> 00:01:59.969 since day one. 32 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:04.049 Leifert charges that as the chief investigator in the Kelly 33 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:07.790 Wilson case, Sergeant Brown had a unique position to suppress 34 00:02:07.870 --> 00:02:08.870 and destroy evidence. 35 00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:12.860 Well, just what is the connection between Kelly Wilson's disappearance, 36 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:15.360 Sergeant James Brown, and the Kerr family? 37 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:18.479 Until the arrest of Sergeant James Brown, no one could 38 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:19.680 have believed what the indictment. 39 00:02:21.229 --> 00:02:24.400 Now, Sergeant Brown stood accused of three of the most 40 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:29.460 heinous crimes imaginable. If convicted, he could face the death penalty. 41 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.939 Folks in Gilmer didn't know what to believe. 42 00:02:34.060 --> 00:02:36.599 The town was divided between people who thought that Sergeant 43 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.939 Brown was as innocent as Noah White and those who 44 00:02:38.979 --> 00:02:40.800 thought he was as guilty as Charles Manson. 45 00:02:40.939 --> 00:02:43.930 That's Philip Williams, the journalist from Gilmer. You heard from 46 00:02:43.969 --> 00:02:47.250 him earlier in the series. Less than a month after 47 00:02:47.289 --> 00:02:50.229 the felony indictments dropped against James Brown and the others, 48 00:02:50.930 --> 00:02:54.469 Texas Assistant Attorney General Shane Phelps was on a government 49 00:02:54.509 --> 00:02:58.409 plane flying straight to Gilmer. The first stop for Shane 50 00:02:58.449 --> 00:03:01.500 and his team from the AG's office? The Kerr family 51 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:05.520 compound on Cherokee Trace, the narrow road that meanders through 52 00:03:05.539 --> 00:03:07.020 the forest outside of town. 53 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:11.219 When I went up there, went out and visited the 54 00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:16.819 Kerr's property, I didn't know much about life or didn't 55 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:19.930 know these other guys, Brooks Flagg and Steve Baggs. or 56 00:03:19.949 --> 00:03:22.629 these CPS workers, to the best of my ability, I 57 00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:25.379 kept an open mind. I mean, because stuff happens. I mean, 58 00:03:25.419 --> 00:03:27.139 there is some crazy stuff that goes on out there. 59 00:03:27.659 --> 00:03:31.500 As you look at the property, it's a long three-acre 60 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:34.259 piece of property with a house on the left and 61 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:36.639 a little shed on the right, closer to the road. 62 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:39.460 And then as you go back, there's a little trail 63 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:42.340 that goes back, and there's a wooded area, and there's 64 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:44.439 a trail that goes around, and it just comes back. 65 00:03:44.900 --> 00:03:50.129 So it creates a circle, which they believed was... somehow 66 00:03:50.189 --> 00:03:52.969 satanic in nature. Was there a clearing in the middle 67 00:03:52.990 --> 00:03:55.159 of the circle, or was it all just forested? No, 68 00:03:55.180 --> 00:03:58.000 it was mostly forested, as I recall. I remember there 69 00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:01.759 was a tree cut down that they said had been desanctified. 70 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:05.840 That was the tree that they would string people up 71 00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:09.189 on and eviscerate them and pass their organs around and 72 00:04:09.490 --> 00:04:12.069 sexually assault them. I mean, it was a wild story. 73 00:04:12.930 --> 00:04:16.589 And, according to the Lyford team, Sergeant Brown was right 74 00:04:16.649 --> 00:04:19.689 there in the middle of the action, They believed he 75 00:04:19.750 --> 00:04:22.670 helped the Kerrs kidnap and sacrifice Kelly Wilson. 76 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:28.529 Their theory of the case was that somehow the way 77 00:04:28.589 --> 00:04:32.790 it ultimately developed was that James Brown knew her, may 78 00:04:32.810 --> 00:04:36.839 have been having an affair with her, that James Brown 79 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.180 was seen by witnesses out at the Kerrs having coffee 80 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:41.339 with Geneva all the time. 81 00:04:41.740 --> 00:04:43.560 Geneva Kerr was the family grandma. 82 00:04:43.779 --> 00:04:46.680 So their theory was that in a van with Wendell Kerr, 83 00:04:47.709 --> 00:04:52.250 I guess James Brown and other people involved kidnapped her 84 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:56.329 in this van, brought her back to Cherokee Trace, the 85 00:04:56.410 --> 00:05:00.600 property that the Kerrs owned, and over the next 14 86 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:06.560 days would keep her shackled in this little shed. And 87 00:05:06.579 --> 00:05:12.899 on a daily basis, they would take Kelly out of 88 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:18.569 the shed and take her down to this circle and 89 00:05:19.009 --> 00:05:23.350 string her up on the tree, and they would, one 90 00:05:23.389 --> 00:05:28.120 after the other, violate her in every way possible. Ultimately, 91 00:05:28.149 --> 00:05:32.620 they would take her out there, everybody would rape her, 92 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:34.759 they'd do these horrible things to her, bring her back, 93 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:40.290 shackle her up, and rinse and repeat for 14 days. 94 00:05:40.589 --> 00:05:43.089 Keep in mind that they had also developed a theory 95 00:05:43.329 --> 00:05:49.319 that there were numerous other victims Hitchhiking teenage girls just 96 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.000 kept disappearing, and they would do all the same things 97 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:56.490 to them. And babies. There was all this stuff in 98 00:05:56.529 --> 00:06:00.990 these interviews about trying to question these people who were 99 00:06:02.350 --> 00:06:09.480 related to Geneva, talking about how they were basically raised 100 00:06:09.500 --> 00:06:12.980 to breed babies so that they could do this. She 101 00:06:13.019 --> 00:06:17.620 was supposed to be kind of the head witch slash Satanist, 102 00:06:17.689 --> 00:06:21.230 I guess. Everybody was doing things for her, you know, 103 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:24.449 sacrificing bodies and giving her gifts. I mean, it was 104 00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:28.290 an outlandish story. It was a really, really bad, you know, 105 00:06:28.329 --> 00:06:35.370 slasher flick. It was just outlandish. Anybody listening to their 106 00:06:35.410 --> 00:06:37.689 story would have said, that's just crazy. And of course, 107 00:06:37.730 --> 00:06:40.620 if you said that, you became part of the problem. 108 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.339 But I remember walking out there and went out to 109 00:06:44.379 --> 00:06:49.089 the back and saw the the circle where all of 110 00:06:49.149 --> 00:06:52.189 this stuff is supposed to have gone on. And I 111 00:06:52.230 --> 00:06:55.029 was asking questions. I was asking questions of Brooks Flagg. 112 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.019 Brooks Flagg, you might remember, was a police chaplain from Louisiana. 113 00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:05.019 According to his 2011 obituary, Flagg served in U.S. military 114 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.310 intelligence as a cryptograph operator at the height of the 115 00:07:08.350 --> 00:07:13.589 Cold War, gathering intelligence on visits to communist East Germany. Later, 116 00:07:13.730 --> 00:07:17.000 he became a businessman, and founded a Christian retreat called 117 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:21.720 The Shepherd's Rest. Somehow, along the way, Flagg came to 118 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.790 view himself as an expert on satanic cults and ritual abuse, 119 00:07:26.170 --> 00:07:28.949 which I guess is how he crossed paths with Steve Baggs, 120 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:34.709 a former Texas Department of Public Safety narcotics officer. Steve Baggs, 121 00:07:35.269 --> 00:07:39.470 also a self-styled expert on Satanists, hasn't responded to any 122 00:07:39.509 --> 00:07:42.850 of my requests for an interview. Neither has Scott Lyford, 123 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:46.060 for that matter. Anyway, Back to the Kerr place. 124 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:49.639 Apparently they had got DPS to do a flyover with 125 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.639 infrared technology and they saw some hot spots and then 126 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:57.110 they brought cadaver dogs out and they hit on two 127 00:07:57.139 --> 00:07:59.519 or three spots. And I remember one was at the 128 00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:00.990 base of a tree and I was standing there with 129 00:08:01.009 --> 00:08:04.110 Brick's flag and I said, well, did you dig it up? Well, 130 00:08:04.129 --> 00:08:06.149 they didn't go down very far, but they said yes 131 00:08:06.170 --> 00:08:08.310 and they found nothing. In fact, in any of the 132 00:08:08.350 --> 00:08:12.449 spots that were identified, they found nothing. I mean, nothing. 133 00:08:13.870 --> 00:08:20.120 And I'm thinking what you've described is, you know, ritual sacrifices, 134 00:08:21.290 --> 00:08:24.930 people being eviscerated, organs being passed around. There should be 135 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:30.449 blood and semen and saliva and, you know, bits of 136 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:34.500 flesh everywhere based on what you guys are relating here. 137 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:38.340 And there's none of that. I'd asked a number of 138 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.279 questions about were you able to recover anything that could 139 00:08:41.299 --> 00:08:45.940 be tested to corroborate this story. And And I will 140 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:48.500 never forget this. I asked Brooks Flagg about that. Does 141 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.279 it bother you that there's virtually no trace evidence of 142 00:08:54.440 --> 00:09:00.659 any of this occurring? And he was very smart, very confident. 143 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.399 The fact, he said, that these are master Satanists and 144 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.779 the fact that there is no evidence proves that they're 145 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.870 master Satanists, proves that it happened. I was frankly pretty 146 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.470 shocked by You just told me that you have no 147 00:09:16.549 --> 00:09:21.090 evidence and that proves that it happened. And at that point, 148 00:09:21.289 --> 00:09:25.590 I knew that this was all bullshit. There was nothing 149 00:09:25.649 --> 00:09:29.120 to it. We were just kind of trying to process 150 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.240 all of this information. And we quickly realized after meeting 151 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:37.940 with some of these officials and actually meeting these folks 152 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:39.879 and seeing some of the things they were saying were 153 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:42.649 happening out there and seeing that there really was no 154 00:09:42.730 --> 00:09:45.370 evidence of it, we thought, this is This is scary 155 00:09:45.389 --> 00:09:48.409 and dangerous. They had already indicted all of these people, 156 00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:52.600 six or seven, Kerr and their extended family. And the 157 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.929 most shocking thing to me was that one of the 158 00:09:56.950 --> 00:09:59.889 people they indicted was James Brown, who was the sergeant. 159 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:03.000 at the Gilmore Police Department who had been investigating Kelly 160 00:10:03.019 --> 00:10:06.460 Wilson's disappearance for two years at this time. And I 161 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:09.860 was just stunned. I mean, come on, that's just not. 162 00:10:12.340 --> 00:10:18.049 It just makes no sense. Why not? There was nothing 163 00:10:18.090 --> 00:10:19.179 that pointed.... 164 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.460 In the last episode, we got into the claims against 165 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:31.659 Sergeant Brown. When Shane Phelps heard the same allegations, well, 166 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.120 he was having none of it. Shane had flown to 167 00:10:35.139 --> 00:10:39.299 Gilmer to assist the special prosecutor, Scott Lyford. Now he 168 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.019 had a new mission. Stop the Lyford team to end 169 00:10:43.100 --> 00:10:47.210 what he considered a witch hunt and clear Sergeant Brown's name. 170 00:10:48.669 --> 00:10:56.399 The truth needed to come out. From Imperative Entertainment, I'm 171 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:10.269 Wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is Chapter 4, Witch Hunt. 172 00:11:12.370 --> 00:11:16.070 I remember vividly the first time I met James. I 173 00:11:16.110 --> 00:11:20.039 remember walking into the jail and And the first words 174 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:22.200 out of his mouth, I mean, he was about to cry. 175 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:23.340 He said, I didn't do this. 176 00:11:23.820 --> 00:11:27.179 David Moore is a longtime attorney in Longview, an East 177 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.620 Texas city about 20 miles south of Gilmer. 178 00:11:30.409 --> 00:11:37.309 He looked stunned. He looked stunned. He looked scared. I 179 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:40.169 don't think he was angry at that point. I think 180 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:44.919 that that was sort of overridden by the fear that 181 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:50.250 he had, that somebody could do this to him. You know, 182 00:11:50.350 --> 00:11:53.590 I think later through time that has obviously morphed into 183 00:11:54.149 --> 00:11:57.649 more anger than anything else. But in that moment, I 184 00:11:57.700 --> 00:11:58.220 saw fear. 185 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.919 Sergeant Brown and his wife, Penny, had been married less 186 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.120 than two months when he was arrested. She tried to 187 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:06.059 visit him in jail. 188 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:07.860 But that was not allowed. 189 00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:10.820 Penny's first glimpse of her new husband came a little 190 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.320 later during a hearing at the Justice Center. 191 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:16.600 They had a hearing with all the defendants. I was 192 00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:19.529 not able to talk to him, but I did see him. 193 00:12:20.429 --> 00:12:24.750 because I was in the back there with the other people. 194 00:12:25.009 --> 00:12:30.820 His face was just sunken in. He looked terrible. As 195 00:12:30.860 --> 00:12:33.600 you can imagine, I mean, he just, he looked like 196 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:34.500 a different person. 197 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.159 Unlike members of the Kerr family who'd been sitting in 198 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:40.649 jail for months, Sergeant Brown spent six days in lockup 199 00:12:41.149 --> 00:12:42.750 before he was released on bond. 200 00:12:43.830 --> 00:12:48.320 The first time I saw him after release, The hearing 201 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.460 was when he was released and I went and picked 202 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.970 him up. He said, if you want to leave me, 203 00:12:56.139 --> 00:13:01.970 I understand. And I just remember telling him, no, I'm 204 00:13:01.990 --> 00:13:06.070 going to stand by your side and fight with you 205 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:08.190 because you didn't do anything wrong. 206 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:09.470 You're an innocent man. 207 00:13:10.549 --> 00:13:14.240 I felt like I was in a different world. It 208 00:13:14.259 --> 00:13:17.919 was shocking, you know, I was really elated that he 209 00:13:17.980 --> 00:13:21.360 had been released. But looking at him, I could tell 210 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:27.870 he was a nervous wreck, you know, shaky and sad, concerned. 211 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:30.450 But we drove to his parents' house. 212 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:34.230 The drive would have taken about 45 minutes. When they 213 00:13:34.289 --> 00:13:37.970 got there, Sergeant Brown's son, Josh, from a previous marriage, 214 00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:38.909 was waiting. 215 00:13:40.830 --> 00:13:43.250 I was at my grandparents' house the day he got released. 216 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:48.299 And my grandmother kept saying, I got a surprise for you. 217 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:50.070 I got a surprise for you. I got a surprise 218 00:13:50.129 --> 00:13:53.830 for you. And I said, Dad's coming. I mean, I 219 00:13:53.870 --> 00:13:58.509 just felt it. I said, Dad's coming. He pulled in 220 00:13:58.529 --> 00:14:02.149 the driveway just like two, three minutes later. Pulled in 221 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:09.220 the driveway and, yeah, man, I just, that's my dad. 222 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:15.769 His blue Chevrolet three-quarter ton truck came driving in front 223 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:18.889 of my grandparents house they had two big windows in 224 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:22.289 front of their house and uh I saw it coming 225 00:14:22.330 --> 00:14:27.350 I heard I just knew dad was coming and uh 226 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:33.419 he showed up and you know dad was there I 227 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:37.679 absolutely ran out the door big hug you know I 228 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.220 mean it really hadn't been long but you know I 229 00:14:40.220 --> 00:14:43.970 was worried you know kids worry people say they don't 230 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:48.070 but You know, they do. You know, I mean, the 231 00:14:48.129 --> 00:14:51.570 reunion was, it came in, you know, just everybody just, 232 00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:57.210 my granddad was still alive and everybody just hugged. And 233 00:14:57.250 --> 00:15:01.250 then it was back to business as usual. We went fishing. 234 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:09.820 Still remember that. You know, my grandparents had a couple 235 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.519 of ponds and, you know, we kind of went and 236 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:13.100 gave them hell. 237 00:15:13.379 --> 00:15:13.600 You know. 238 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.639 Although Josh was visiting his grandparents when his dad was 239 00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:20.059 released from jail, his mom had actually moved Josh and 240 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:23.450 his little brother to another area of the state. But 241 00:15:23.490 --> 00:15:26.929 even there, they couldn't escape news of his dad's legal jeopardy. 242 00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:31.769 You know, he shielded us from... I say shielded us, 243 00:15:31.870 --> 00:15:35.779 tried to shield us from what was going on. I mean, 244 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:38.899 you know, and we would hear stuff on the radio. 245 00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:43.019 I can remember... Sitting in the car when I lived 246 00:15:43.059 --> 00:15:47.500 in West Texas, my mom had forgotten something in the 247 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.320 house and got out of the car and went back in. 248 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.730 She was taking us to school. And hearing an article 249 00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:58.009 about dad, she got back in the car and I said, Mom, 250 00:15:58.049 --> 00:15:59.190 they're talking about dad. 251 00:15:59.549 --> 00:16:01.710 It was a lot for a 10-year-old kid to process. 252 00:16:02.409 --> 00:16:05.860 You know, trying to figure out, you know, why he 253 00:16:05.899 --> 00:16:10.139 was arrested. And then thinking that there's no way this 254 00:16:10.179 --> 00:16:14.450 side of hell, that what he was arrested for is 255 00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:21.789 what he did, because he is such a good father. 256 00:16:22.509 --> 00:16:25.769 Sergeant Brown's wife thought he was innocent. His son thought 257 00:16:25.809 --> 00:16:29.759 he was innocent. But his lawyer, David Moore, thought he 258 00:16:29.779 --> 00:16:33.500 could prove it. Sergeant Brown had kept a meticulous journal 259 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:36.019 of his whereabouts during the early weeks of the search 260 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:39.090 for Kelly. If David could find out what specific day 261 00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:41.850 Kelly was supposed to have been sacrificed in the woods 262 00:16:41.889 --> 00:16:44.769 behind the Kerr house, there was a good chance Sergeant 263 00:16:44.809 --> 00:16:49.090 Brown's journal would offer up an alibi. There was just 264 00:16:49.250 --> 00:16:53.139 one problem with that plan. Scott Lyford couldn't even say 265 00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:54.320 when the murder happened. 266 00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.840 So I'm trying to get a timeline from Lyford about, 267 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.869 you know, when supposedly she was killed because they allegedly 268 00:17:05.890 --> 00:17:10.740 killed kidnapped her, kept her for X number of days, 269 00:17:11.369 --> 00:17:15.150 raped her over that period of time, multiple times, did 270 00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:17.630 all these other satanic ritual deals, and then killed her 271 00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:24.170 in a ritualistic manner. And I was wanting to know when, 272 00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:30.190 you know, because I felt pretty confident that we, because 273 00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:35.059 James was supposedly there, raped her, on an occasion, and 274 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.099 then also was there when she was killed. And I 275 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.720 was feeling fairly confident that if I could get that date, 276 00:17:41.779 --> 00:17:47.380 that we already had probably 80% of his whereabouts covered. 277 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:52.400 And I asked Lyford, I said, well, when was the killing? 278 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.049 Well, I don't know. I said, what do you mean 279 00:17:55.089 --> 00:17:55.529 you don't know? 280 00:17:55.549 --> 00:18:01.849 I mean, you've indicted this guy for, her murder, and 281 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.569 you can't tell me even when it was. I don't know. 282 00:18:05.609 --> 00:18:06.410 We're working on that. 283 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:07.299 We'll get that to you. 284 00:18:08.170 --> 00:18:11.849 Not long after his troubling conversation with Lyford, David got 285 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:15.390 another phone call. This one from Al McAllister, the Gilmer 286 00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:19.539 police chief. Al McAllister was a strong supporter of Brown. 287 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:23.039 I can't go into any details right now other than 288 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.480 to say that I'm happy he's out of jail. And 289 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.299 I look forward to the time when our story can 290 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.230 be completely told. And I think it's time for the 291 00:18:31.269 --> 00:18:33.730 man to show us what evidence he has. 292 00:18:34.289 --> 00:18:35.630 You mean the special prosecutor? 293 00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:40.019 I mean the special prosecutor. There have been many people 294 00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.359 who will tell you the most fantastic stories about Sergeant 295 00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:46.400 Brown that you've ever heard. And especially they've risen to 296 00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:49.180 the surface and come out of various places to make 297 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:51.599 all manner of allegations against Sergeant Brown. So it certainly 298 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.609 doesn't surprise me that somebody might say that. 299 00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:57.069 Remember, Sergeant Brown had not even been a suspect before. 300 00:18:57.460 --> 00:19:00.890 until he stuck his nose in the Lyford investigation. At 301 00:19:00.930 --> 00:19:03.750 that time, Lyford had threatened to ruin him if he 302 00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:07.710 didn't back down. And, next thing you know, Sergeant Brown 303 00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:12.170 is in jail. Now the Lyford team wanted Brown's investigative reports, 304 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.730 and Chief Al McAllister didn't want to hand them over. 305 00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:19.089 They were threatening Al that if he didn't turn over 306 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:24.069 James's investigative file to them, that they were going to 307 00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:26.849 haul Al in front of the grand jury and charge 308 00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:32.410 him with with something. And I was worried, Al was worried, 309 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:35.660 James was worried, that if they were to get his 310 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.099 file of all the things he was meticulous about, what 311 00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:41.680 he did when and where he was, that if they 312 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.369 had that, then they would be able to tailor their story, 313 00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:49.710 their version, and work around whatever kind of alibis that 314 00:19:49.750 --> 00:19:50.559 James would have had. 315 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:53.859 David filed a motion to block the Leifert team from 316 00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:57.559 getting access to Brown's file until they could actually figure 317 00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:58.940 out when the murder happened. 318 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:03.599 To Judge Garrison's credit, he shut them down on that 319 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.079 and told them not to turn that over. I think 320 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.019 that was probably the first time they got any pushback 321 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.500 from anybody. It was obvious something was rotten. You know, 322 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.700 something didn't smell right. 323 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.220 As for Shane Phelps, he'd flown back to the Attorney 324 00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:20.740 General's office in Austin, and he had a bunch of 325 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.430 cassette tapes. Recordings of the Leifert team's interrogations with Wanda Kerr, 326 00:20:25.970 --> 00:20:30.349 Connie Martin, the common-law wife of Danny Kerr, and Raymond Smith, 327 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:33.650 the little boy who'd connected the Kerr abuse to Kelly 328 00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:37.349 Wilson's disappearance. Shane was sitting at his desk when he 329 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:37.849 hit play. 330 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:41.069 And I got angrier and angrier. I mean, I think 331 00:20:41.089 --> 00:20:42.470 I started listening to it at one or two o'clock 332 00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:45.789 in the afternoon. I was there until almost midnight, listening 333 00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:47.490 to this. And I got to the point where I 334 00:20:47.509 --> 00:20:51.819 was throwing things around in my office. I was so angry. Really? Oh, yes. 335 00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:54.559 What'd you throw? Oh, God, what was it? Something on 336 00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:57.319 my desk. It was a paperweight. You threw a paperweight? 337 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.819 I did. I was pissed off. I mean, it is 338 00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:06.670 so far afield of anything that any responsible person law 339 00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:12.170 enforcement officer, prosecutor would ever, ever do. It wasn't marginal. 340 00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:14.609 It wasn't a difference of opinion about how these things 341 00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:18.829 should be done. It was, in my mind, criminal. And 342 00:21:18.849 --> 00:21:21.329 there was no other evidence. I mean, when we, I 343 00:21:21.369 --> 00:21:28.289 listened to these audio interviews and their investigative methods were horrendous. 344 00:21:28.730 --> 00:21:31.490 They were practically non-existent. You know, they're supposed to have 345 00:21:31.569 --> 00:21:38.960 two investigators with investigative experience. No law enforcement officer worth 346 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.240 a damn with any dedication to doing the job properly 347 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:47.299 would ever have participated in these interviews. 348 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.059 I've also been listening to the tapes. It's hard. The 349 00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:54.619 material is just really graphic and gross, and it goes 350 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.119 on for hours on end. And yet, sometimes the interrogators 351 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.759 actually seem to be enjoying themselves. 352 00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:03.079 All right, so. 353 00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:06.710 James is over there. He ought to be through taking 354 00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:10.710 his clothes off now. So we've got James without any clothes. 355 00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:12.730 We've got the stick in Kelly. 356 00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:16.819 What's the next thing that happens? Somebody else undress, or 357 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.960 does James get on at this point, or what's the deal? 358 00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:20.279 I don't know why my. 359 00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:24.000 Mind works the way it does. That's beginning to worry me. 360 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:28.849 If you couldn't hear that, either Bags or Flag, I 361 00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:32.450 think Flag said, I don't know why my mind works 362 00:22:32.490 --> 00:22:34.960 the way it does. That's beginning to worry me. 363 00:22:35.619 --> 00:22:39.349 Okay. He's completely nude, right? 364 00:22:39.609 --> 00:22:39.910 Naked. 365 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:42.750 Skinny ass son of a bitch. 366 00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:43.049 Okay. 367 00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:43.569 Anyway. 368 00:22:43.589 --> 00:22:50.700 Is that on tape? Connie's still laughing the way your 369 00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:51.339 mind works. 370 00:22:56.740 --> 00:22:59.500 Skinny ass son of a bitch. Is that on tape? 371 00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:02.849 Connie is still laughing at the way your mind works. 372 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:07.109 the interrogators definitely seem to have overactive imaginations. 373 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.589 I'll never forget listening to Raymond's, the audio tape of 374 00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:14.069 Raymond's interview, when he's talking about all this bizarre stuff. 375 00:23:14.710 --> 00:23:18.269 And it's all, it was clearly being suggested. And what 376 00:23:18.289 --> 00:23:19.970 this was not coming out of the mind of these children, 377 00:23:20.009 --> 00:23:22.819 it was coming out of the Leifert team. And what 378 00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:25.900 they knew had to have happened if Satanists were involved. 379 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.400 So we know this is the practice. If you're not 380 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.099 giving us, you know, validating our theory, then... you're not 381 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:38.160 being truthful. So I was listening to the Raymond audio 382 00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:41.779 tape and there was nothing about James Brown. And I'm 383 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:43.480 about to turn it off. I was in my office 384 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:45.279 in Austin and I was about to turn it off, 385 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.130 reaching for the off switch when, because they had ended 386 00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:56.609 the interview, when they came back on and said, Raymond, 387 00:23:56.630 --> 00:23:59.650 do you have something else to tell us? And he said, yes, 388 00:23:59.769 --> 00:24:02.430 Sergeant Brown was there. And then they just turned it off. 389 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.269 To thank you Raymond? Yeah. They didn't follow through. They 390 00:24:08.289 --> 00:24:10.109 didn't say, well, how do you know he was there? 391 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:12.029 Were you there when he was there? How many times 392 00:24:12.089 --> 00:24:14.349 was he there? How was he dressed? What did he do? 393 00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:17.369 Had you ever seen him before? No questions like that. 394 00:24:18.450 --> 00:24:20.690 And we have no idea how much time elapsed between 395 00:24:20.769 --> 00:24:23.259 when they stopped recording and when they started up again. 396 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:23.470 No. 397 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.099 And I guarantee you that there was stuff going on 398 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.619 at that point. Between them. There would be no reason 399 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.869 to have any conversation with this kid that wasn't recorded. 400 00:24:34.869 --> 00:24:38.450 And yeah, so that lapse in time, however long it was, 401 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:41.150