Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bubo.
Speaker 2: These guys are your favorites, so like to subscribe and
Speaker 2: raid it live Stary and me.
Speaker 3: Righteous go on yes today and listening watching Lin always
Speaker 3: keep its watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and
Speaker 3: James boogle Fay.
Speaker 4: All right, Well that brings us to our guests this evening.
Speaker 4: We are blessed with getting the man himself, the king
Speaker 4: of the big Foot podcast, Wes Germer from Sasquatch Chronicles.
Speaker 4: He's been a huge help to us. He's helped us
Speaker 4: get our show off the ground and give us advice
Speaker 4: and just super generous this time and knowledge. And again
Speaker 4: he's coming with you for us beat on the show today,
Speaker 4: So welcome to Wes.
Speaker 1: Welcome Wes. Hey, guys, thanks for having me on. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate it all pleasure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for coming on. It's been a long
Speaker 2: time coming between our schedules and your schedule to finally
Speaker 2: have you on as a guest, and we're just thrilled
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: So thank you. Yeah. First things first, Cliff, how's my
Speaker 1: dog doing?
Speaker 2: Our dog is doing fine? Yeah, did I talk about
Speaker 2: that on the podcast? Who our listeners know, Yeah, West
Speaker 2: fell in love with Sochi, and I mean, who I
Speaker 2: mean to know Sochi is to love her.
Speaker 4: So that's how you can.
Speaker 2: You can always tell if somebody knows has ever met
Speaker 2: her because they love her.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, she's doing great. She's she's I say it
Speaker 2: all the time, but I wish they could be old
Speaker 2: dogs longer. She's just perfect. She lays around all the time,
Speaker 2: super Stoked needs super Stoked to go outside for the
Speaker 2: smallest of walks. She's absolutely fantastic. She asked about you too,
Speaker 2: so whatever that's worth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's easy to fall in love with, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: And it's so cool that you guys. You know, I
Speaker 1: really like your guys' podcast because it's so different. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you guys tackle different subjects. Sometimes you guys have
Speaker 1: guests on. I like the Variety and the show. And
Speaker 1: you know, even with my show being Sessquatch Chronicles, amlingly
Speaker 1: interview eyewitnesses, and I don't think I'd quite have the
Speaker 1: show if it weren't for you guys doing finding Bigfoot,
Speaker 1: you know, with the whole I know, you guys get
Speaker 1: a crap for finding Bigfoot, but really it was the
Speaker 1: start of bringing eyewitnesses forward, you guys going out doing
Speaker 1: the investigations. You guys really were the first ones to
Speaker 1: start that. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I m'd be giving us a little bit
Speaker 2: too much credit, but we certainly did bring it to
Speaker 2: the public. I think put it into the public scrutiny
Speaker 2: for a little while. And you know, it's surprising we
Speaker 2: don't get as much crap as you would think for
Speaker 2: finding Bigfoot. Some of the Bigfooters like to flick poop
Speaker 2: at us, you know, but I mean that's because they
Speaker 2: weren't on TV. You know, they don't get it, and
Speaker 2: there were some hokey things about it and stuff. I
Speaker 2: totally get that for the most part. But by and large,
Speaker 2: you know, the show and I don't think any of
Speaker 2: us as cast members on Finding Bigfoot really understood this
Speaker 2: right at least at first, you know, it sank and
Speaker 2: eventually Bigfooters were not the target audience, you know, the
Speaker 2: target audience or the general public who doesn't know anything
Speaker 2: about it and kind of introducing them to this whole thing.
Speaker 2: Bigfooters all have an opinion, but they also all have
Speaker 2: buttholes and they all stink too, So like it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter what they say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. You know, it's kind of curious.
Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to ask all three of you, Matt, Bobo,
Speaker 1: and Cliff.
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, who's only interviewing here?
Speaker 4: Buddy?
Speaker 2: Whose show is this?
Speaker 1: Anyway? I apologize, you're right.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I'm just totally kidding you. Go ahead.
Speaker 2: That's a great thing about interviewing podcasters is because it's
Speaker 2: a real legit conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things I was really curious on
Speaker 1: your guys' opinion on is you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: times when people encounter these creatures, they'll talk about the
Speaker 1: force going quiet, dead, silent. It feels very unnatural. Like
Speaker 1: when I've experienced it, it felt weird.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I had a witness one time to describe it like
Speaker 1: being underwater or going underwater, you know that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: or like a switch. It's like the forest takes a
Speaker 1: deep breath and just goes quiet, and it's usually right
Speaker 1: before they see the creature or while they're seeing the creature,
Speaker 1: everything goes silent. And to me, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I've had researchers go, well, you know, anytime there's a
Speaker 1: big predator in the area your pray is going to
Speaker 1: be quiet, and that's true to an extent, But the
Speaker 1: bugs don't shut off. The crickets don't shut off. What's
Speaker 1: your guys' take on the forest just going quiet.
Speaker 4: I think I think most of the times just the
Speaker 4: forest does go quiet. But when you get that like
Speaker 4: or that underwater for things, like where you get like
Speaker 4: in your in your hair goes up. Because I mean,
Speaker 4: I've been in the forest tons of times when it
Speaker 4: goes quiet, my hair doesn't stand up. But I've had
Speaker 4: those ones where it does go up and and everything
Speaker 4: goes dead quiet. You feel like you're, like you said,
Speaker 4: like that underwater feeling kind of. I think that's they're
Speaker 4: infrastounding us, and like the infrastund shuts everything down, is
Speaker 4: what I think. But I'm sure Cliff and metelhouse some
Speaker 4: kind of scientif an exploation for that is not that,
Speaker 4: But that's my take.
Speaker 2: See, the thing is, I've encountered sasquatches where it's been
Speaker 2: very like a loud forest with tons of life and
Speaker 2: things moving and chittering and crackling, and there's been bigfoots around.
Speaker 2: But I've also encountered them in the deadliest of quiet situations,
Speaker 2: So I don't think there's a pattern. Personally, I don't
Speaker 2: see one being predominant. I see that in the good
Speaker 2: spooky stories people say the forest went quiet, and then
Speaker 2: something dramatic happened. I think there's a pattern in human storytelling.
Speaker 2: But as far as I can tell with sasquatches, and
Speaker 2: I've been around them fair amount, you know, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I have. I
Speaker 2: don't think there's a pattern as far as that sort
Speaker 2: of thing goes. If people do describe that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: especially with some sort of kind of a murky or
Speaker 2: a fuzzy description of some other sensory input or response,
Speaker 2: I would agree with Bobo that is probably infrasonic, because
Speaker 2: as doctor Krantz even noted in his book that many
Speaker 2: people note the feeling of being watched even before they
Speaker 2: observed the sasquatch that they later found out was in
Speaker 2: the area. So I do think that infrasound is the
Speaker 2: most likely culprit, so to speak, of all the weird
Speaker 2: spooky stuff that may or may not even happen around sasquatches,
Speaker 2: but are certainly prevalent in the stories.
Speaker 4: To Cliff's point.
Speaker 3: You know, a number of the experiences that I've had
Speaker 3: were in noisy forests, Like the first encounter that I
Speaker 3: had there was a number of cicada sounds and tree frogs,
Speaker 3: like the forest was pretty loud, And I've had other
Speaker 3: experiences of that nature in other parts of the country
Speaker 3: and then again in quiet forests. But I don't think
Speaker 3: any blanket explanation could cover all of the stories of
Speaker 3: the experiences. But I think one really important insight that
Speaker 3: I had gained from studying a number of other disciplines
Speaker 3: was that when something novel emerges, and especially if it's
Speaker 3: something novel and threatening, you know, we have a hardwired
Speaker 3: response that's called the orienting reflex, where essentially you involuntarily
Speaker 3: direct all your attention to the novel thing that's emerged.
Speaker 3: So in those cases, all of your cognitive resources get
Speaker 3: devoted to this myopic tunnel vision assessment of the novel
Speaker 3: or the threat. And so you'll see this phenomenon in
Speaker 3: people too that have other frightening, threatening encounters. For example,
Speaker 3: like if you've ever been driving down the road and
Speaker 3: someone swerves into your lane and you think you're about
Speaker 3: to get hit head on, and people will report the
Speaker 3: absolute disappearance of all other sensory information. And so in
Speaker 3: retrospect it's like, well, you know that there was a
Speaker 3: song on the radio, or you were listening to a
Speaker 3: podcast or this or that. But you know, I've asked
Speaker 3: many people like you ever had that experience, and they'll say, yes,
Speaker 3: I'm big what song was on the radio? And they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I have no idea because it's not committed to memory.
Speaker 3: It's deemed immediately irrelevant by your cognitive systems, almost like neurobiologically,
Speaker 3: and so in memory, it's as if there was nothing
Speaker 3: on the radio. And so I think there's a large
Speaker 3: number of these cases, not all of them. I'm not
Speaker 3: trying to explain them all away, but I think for
Speaker 3: a number of people going about their business and what
Speaker 3: they perceived to be sort of explored territory, and then
Speaker 3: this novel, frightening thing emerges and they direct all their
Speaker 3: focus and attention to it, again involuntarily, it's against their will.
Speaker 3: They have no agency in that. In those systems being
Speaker 3: activated in memory, they're thinking like there was an absence
Speaker 3: of forest sounds where they may not have been. It's
Speaker 3: just that none of those were experienced and therefore none
Speaker 3: of those were committed to memory. So I think that
Speaker 3: constitutes a large number of those cases. And there are,
Speaker 3: to your point, like a handful where people say like
Speaker 3: they observed first that the forest went silent, and then
Speaker 3: observed something. But in all the people I've interviewed, that
Speaker 3: tends to be on the rarer side. Most people just
Speaker 3: have this frightening, shocking experience and then you know, describe
Speaker 3: like the absence of sounds and all very often like,
Speaker 3: well when did you notice the absence of sounds? And
Speaker 3: oftentimes it's like during the event or in the recollection
Speaker 3: of the event. So I think that constitutes a big
Speaker 3: portion of it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that does.
Speaker 2: What do you think, West?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there's something else going on there,
Speaker 1: because it's so odd if you've ever experienced it, the
Speaker 1: forest just going silent. But there might be something to
Speaker 1: Matt's point, you know, I was in a major car
Speaker 1: accident and I can't remember the sound of the crash.
Speaker 1: I can remember what it felt like hitting the windshield,
Speaker 1: I can remember pain, but I I can't say that
Speaker 1: I remember any sounds going on. It seems like everything
Speaker 1: just kind of slowed down. In that car accident to
Speaker 1: where I. You know, you would think I would hear
Speaker 1: the crash, but I really don't remember hearing the crash.
Speaker 1: Is it like fear, do you think, Matt? Is that
Speaker 1: what you're saying is it's your brain chutting down the
Speaker 1: things you don't need at that moment.
Speaker 3: I think fear is a component, know of it. But
Speaker 3: if you the way I laid it out in the
Speaker 3: book is like a cascade of these system failures. You
Speaker 3: know that car normal baseline operating systems, and that number one,
Speaker 3: you're in a place that you consider to be implicitly
Speaker 3: like explored territory. So you know, if someone were to
Speaker 3: send you to a habitable earth like planet that no
Speaker 3: human had ever gone to, you would know that like, oh, man,
Speaker 3: I might encounter some life form that no one's ever seen,
Speaker 3: Like you'd have some preparation, you'd be you'd have that
Speaker 3: as part of your perceptual system. People just don't feel
Speaker 3: that way when they're in Kentucky or northern California or
Speaker 3: you know, Utah or something like that. And so when
Speaker 3: something like that emerges, it's shocking because it is completely unknown,
Speaker 3: it's totally novel, and so that's the sort of first shock,
Speaker 3: and the immediate response in the face of novelty is
Speaker 3: the orienting reflex, coupled with the involuntary freezing response, which
Speaker 3: is called tonic immobility, and so you know, you're basically
Speaker 3: paralyzed involuntarily. That's conserved across all primates, but especially humans,
Speaker 3: great aps, et cetera. And then one of the first
Speaker 3: things that we try to do is map the anomaly,
Speaker 3: which is sort of like a categorization exercise. And as
Speaker 3: you know, like these things when you talk to witnesses,
Speaker 3: this blurs the lines of so many categories that most
Speaker 3: people will say, like they spent those seconds cognitively going
Speaker 3: what am I looking at? Like it's kind of like
Speaker 3: a person, and it's nothing like a person. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like a bear. It's nothing like a bear, kind
Speaker 3: of like an animal, it's nothing like an animal. And
Speaker 3: so they're unable to map the anomaly, so to speak,
Speaker 3: and so that creates a sort of cognitive shock that's
Speaker 3: simultaneous with the physiological shock, you know, the thing that's
Speaker 3: instantiated in your body. And then on top of all
Speaker 3: those things, you have the basic predator prayer response, because
Speaker 3: there's no older fear than the fear of like the
Speaker 3: large intimidating animal, the thing that's bigger than us. You know,
Speaker 3: we're all here because our ancestors successfully navigated that at
Speaker 3: least long enough to reproduce, right, And so I think
Speaker 3: it's a host of things novelty, you know, the unknown
Speaker 3: in the form of a large intimidating animal that's very
Speaker 3: difficult to categorize without a lot of prior exposure. So
Speaker 3: you know, if you studied sasquatch your whole life and
Speaker 3: you went into the forest hoping or expecting to see one,
Speaker 3: you might have a different response versus as you know,
Speaker 3: because I listen to your podcast and you'll say, like,
Speaker 3: what do you think about this, and the vast majority
Speaker 3: of your interviewees say like, oh, I thought it was
Speaker 3: all nonsense until I saw it, or yeah, I heard stories,
Speaker 3: but I never took it seriously, and so bam, you
Speaker 3: have these multiple systems like failing all at once.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like if your body goes in a
Speaker 4: freezing you know, you start shutting down part like your
Speaker 4: body like takes all the heats of the core.
Speaker 3: Well, I think a big part of what people describe
Speaker 3: that they frame as mystical, metaphysical, paranormal. Are these physiological
Speaker 3: and cognitive responses, and so they're not lying when they
Speaker 3: say the sasquatch paralyzed me. And you'll find those same
Speaker 3: beliefs associated with a host of other animals around the world,
Speaker 3: and it's it's true. It's just that the animals not
Speaker 3: generating something that paralyzes you like it's happening within the
Speaker 3: human observer, but because you're powerless to it, it does
Speaker 3: feel like it's being imposed upon you. So I think
Speaker 3: that explains a lot of it, not all of it.
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to write everything off, but I think
Speaker 3: that's a way to bridge the gap between acknowledging that
Speaker 3: people are really genuinely having these experiences that people want
Speaker 3: to write off as oh, that's just paranormal, therefore it's
Speaker 3: a lie. It's like, no, there's a perfectly normal explanation
Speaker 3: that says, like, these animals can't exist and these experiences
Speaker 3: are real, devoid of a metaphysical explanation.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Speaker 2: Bobo will be right back after these messages. So three
Speaker 2: to six months doesn't seem like a long time right
Speaker 2: in bigfoot Land. It's not very long because we've been
Speaker 2: looking for sasquatches for decades and decades and decades. But
Speaker 2: when you think about what can happen in three to
Speaker 2: six months? But what would you do in three to
Speaker 2: six months? I'm going to give me six months go
Speaker 2: squatching squad of course, of course, And how much do
Speaker 2: you think is going to get done during that time?
Speaker 2: In squatching you're gonna see one in six months? Probably not,
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Speaker 4: Well tigers have them for sound, because you always say, like,
Speaker 4: how tigers have that attributed to him? And that could
Speaker 4: be why people say, like it froze me? Is the
Speaker 4: inver sound hit them? I think that's on the table.
Speaker 4: I just don't think we necessarily have to reach for that.
Speaker 4: When you can show examples of like devoid of the
Speaker 4: animal generating any sounds or pheromones whatsoever, people will absolutely
Speaker 4: have those same responses and they go into dissociative states.
Speaker 4: If you listen to enough interviews with people with grizzly
Speaker 4: bear encounters, especially people who are attacked very often, it's
Speaker 4: because they spook to grizzly at close range, and one
Speaker 4: of the first things they go into, especially if they're
Speaker 4: not a woodsman, like not a grizzly hunter or somebody
Speaker 4: with a lot of experience, they immediately go into cognitive
Speaker 4: shock and a dissociative state and tonic immobility and bammed.
Speaker 4: Then the attack happens, and you know, grizzly bears aren't
Speaker 4: generating some force that's compelling the person to respond that way.
Speaker 4: It's just the normative human response.
Speaker 2: Grizzlies are just dicks, Yeah, and it can be I
Speaker 2: did this were bringing up a couple points real fast.
Speaker 2: Its number one. A couple summers ago, somebody came into
Speaker 2: the North American big Foot Center and was talking about
Speaker 2: how he accidentally surprised a grizzly bear. I forget it's
Speaker 2: in glacier or somewhere like that. It comes around a
Speaker 2: corner and there's a grizzly bear right there, ten feet
Speaker 2: from him, fifteen feet from him, like entirely too close.
Speaker 2: And I thought it was interesting because he said right
Speaker 2: away a voice came into my head said you need
Speaker 2: to get out of here now. And I always bring
Speaker 2: that up with people who claimed telepathic communication with sasquatches.
Speaker 2: Is that are we to believe that grizzlies can do
Speaker 2: this as well? Because that happened to that man. I thought,
Speaker 2: I always think that that's really interesting as far as
Speaker 2: some of the stuff that you're talking about there, Matt.
Speaker 2: But also back to the original thing about noises and
Speaker 2: no noises and stuff of it's not exactly it's not
Speaker 2: exactly in response to the question necessarily, but I do
Speaker 2: think it's worth pointing out that number one when we
Speaker 2: were on Finding Bigfoot, and you know, I learned a
Speaker 2: lot about finding sasquatches on the show, of course, because
Speaker 2: Moneymaker is very good at it. You know, I will
Speaker 2: say that till the day I die. You can talk
Speaker 2: whatever smack you want about the show or mat or
Speaker 2: anybody else, but Matt Moneymaker is one of the best
Speaker 2: in the world and actually finding where sasquatches are. And
Speaker 2: one of the things I learned from him is always
Speaker 2: you know, it didn't take long to figure it out.
Speaker 2: A lot of this stuff out, of course, but always
Speaker 2: look for where all the animals are, because the forest,
Speaker 2: just like the ocean, is largely empty.
Speaker 4: Honestly.
Speaker 2: You know, when I was when I was fishing in
Speaker 2: southern California, it was always ninety percent of the fish
Speaker 2: living ten percent of the ocean, and that's I believe
Speaker 2: that's approximately true with the forest as well. So you're
Speaker 2: always looking for where there is the most animal life.
Speaker 2: So the loudest place, you know, the place for the
Speaker 2: animals are crunching around doing their thing and moving and
Speaker 2: making noises and all that owls we always use owls
Speaker 2: as an indicator species because if owls are in the area,
Speaker 2: that means the rodents are in the area, and then
Speaker 2: the food chain continues from there, right So, And I'm
Speaker 2: not sure which way to go in this either because
Speaker 2: at the same time, on the other side of the coin,
Speaker 2: the very coin I'm talking about right now, I have
Speaker 2: found that some of the best sasquatch spots are places
Speaker 2: where it's deadly quiet all the time. So it's a
Speaker 2: little bit of both as far as noises in the woods.
Speaker 2: And I know that's not in direct response what you're saying, Wes,
Speaker 2: but I do find that there's a certain dichotomy here.
Speaker 4: There's a certain.
Speaker 2: Complication in the noise no noise sort of thing as well,
Speaker 2: because you do find sasquatches where all the animals are,
Speaker 2: generally speaking, but within those zones where the animals are moving,
Speaker 2: because that's where the food happens to be at the time.
Speaker 2: If you can find the quietest spots in there, that's
Speaker 2: likely where the sasquatches are going to be, because I
Speaker 2: think that a great deal of their observation of the
Speaker 2: woods themselves is not a visual observation. I mean, it's nighttime,
Speaker 2: for example, and you know the forest is thick, you
Speaker 2: can't you just can't see very far. I think that
Speaker 2: the vast majority of their observation of their environment, of
Speaker 2: the animals, including humans in their environment, is by listening,
Speaker 2: and therefore I think that they gravitate towards those really
Speaker 2: quiet places so they can tell if something comes in
Speaker 2: or out very easily.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, I'll see. My next question is where do
Speaker 1: you see yourself in five years?
Speaker 4: What's your take?
Speaker 2: Was?
Speaker 1: What's my take? Bobo? I don't know. You know, I've
Speaker 1: experienced it, and I think there's something weird to it.
Speaker 1: I think you could be onto something with the infrasound.
Speaker 1: I can't disagree with any of your guys's opinions though,
Speaker 1: I mean, all of you guys could be onto something.
Speaker 1: It's just weird how everything. Again, you you would anticipate
Speaker 1: things going quiet, but things like crickets and the insects
Speaker 1: just don't shut off. And people report that, they'll say
Speaker 1: everything went quiet, even the cricket shut up. And it
Speaker 1: makes me wonder sometimes. And you know, you might be right, Bobo.
Speaker 1: With the infrasound, it's really hard to say it's that.
Speaker 1: And I've always been fascinated with when people say that
Speaker 1: feeling of being watched, and you know, I don't. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that's anything paranormal. But I interviewed Rocky Elmore,
Speaker 1: who's a border patrol age, and he told me what
Speaker 1: they would do is they would sit on the side
Speaker 1: of a path in the bushes and they would hear
Speaker 1: the people coming through on the path. And it's funny,
Speaker 1: because well it's not funny. It's interesting that the government
Speaker 1: actually has instructions on not to look at the people
Speaker 1: as they pass by, so they're trained to actually look
Speaker 1: at the ground as the people are going by. And
Speaker 1: I asked Rocky why, and he goes, because people know
Speaker 1: when they're being watched. They absolutely know when they're being watched,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times they'll look in the direction
Speaker 1: of them being watched. And so I've been fascinated with
Speaker 1: that since too as well. I'm kind of getting off track, but.
Speaker 2: No, I agree with you there. I tell a story
Speaker 2: when I was living back in Long Beach. I remember
Speaker 2: I was at a place in line for a burrito
Speaker 2: or something, which is where I tend to be oftentimes,
Speaker 2: but I remember getting a weird feeling and I turned
Speaker 2: around and there was some guy, you know, like mad
Speaker 2: doging me from across the rooms. Like I don't know
Speaker 2: what I did, but I wasn't even facing his direction,
Speaker 2: you know, when I kind of like felt compelled to
Speaker 2: turn around and see what was going on behind me
Speaker 2: because I felt something, I just didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2: And they go, oh, the why is that guy staring
Speaker 2: at me? And then it kind of occurred to me.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, not.
Speaker 2: Odd that I kind of felt that or sensed that
Speaker 2: in some sort of way.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Rupert Childric, I believe his book is called The Sense
Speaker 3: of Being Stared At is probably the most prominent researcher
Speaker 3: who's done a lot of work into that subject. You know,
Speaker 3: it's interesting, like I've experienced. I can't recall a memory
Speaker 3: involving insects, but like many times because I'm out in
Speaker 3: the summertime a lot, and you have a lot of
Speaker 3: tree frogs and frogs and all the pools of collected
Speaker 3: water on roadbeds or just anywhere on the ground, and
Speaker 3: there's been like plenty of times that I've been walking
Speaker 3: through a loud forest and I've made a noise, whether
Speaker 3: I'm like stepping on a stick that breaks or something
Speaker 3: like that in the dark, and all the frogs go quiet,
Speaker 3: and like the proximal ones start first, and then it's
Speaker 3: like this wave of silence that extends out beyond you.
Speaker 3: Like the frogs at the distance maybe they didn't hear
Speaker 3: the stick break, but they heard the other frogs go quiet,
Speaker 3: and so they go quiet too. That that might occur
Speaker 3: in some of these cases where proximal to the sasquatch
Speaker 3: moving or being seen, like critters go quiet and then
Speaker 3: it just extends out as other critters noticed the silence,
Speaker 3: and there's got to be some beneficial adaptation of like,
Speaker 3: well they go quiet involuntarily for like self preservation, and
Speaker 3: so it'd be good for all of your species if
Speaker 3: you notice that your your buddies are setting up that like, oh,
Speaker 3: I better shut up too because something's coming, you know.
Speaker 3: So there might be something to that. At least maybe
Speaker 3: that extends to insects or birds as well.
Speaker 4: Who knows. We know that. I mean everyone's heard that
Speaker 4: where the frogs shut off, like you know, like it
Speaker 4: spreads out and all that. I mean, that's normal.
Speaker 1: I actually had an eyewitness one time. He was in
Speaker 1: his tent. He was camping, and I'll make the long
Speaker 1: story really really short. But he was sitting in his
Speaker 1: tent and he could hear this thing coming in at night.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't just crash through, we would slowly make its
Speaker 1: way to the camp. And at first he thought it
Speaker 1: was a person. He didn't even know what it was.
Speaker 1: One of the things he said, though, I thought, was
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. He goes, you know, crickets are on
Speaker 1: a timer. And I go, what do you mean they're
Speaker 1: on a timer? And he goes, listen to crickets. They
Speaker 1: will do their noise for like thirty seconds and then
Speaker 1: they'll stop for ten seconds, and then it'll turn back
Speaker 1: on for thirty seconds and then they'll stop. And if
Speaker 1: you notice, they're all in in sequence with each other.
Speaker 1: And it was kind of fascinating because this creature would
Speaker 1: only move when the cicadas and the you know or
Speaker 1: whatever it was, the crickets would be loud, and the
Speaker 1: minute they would stop, it would stop moving. He could
Speaker 1: hear it stop moving in the forest and I thought
Speaker 1: that was kind of fascinating.
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely. I think there's plenty of like ambush predators
Speaker 3: that move. They use the natural sounds as subterfuge. At
Speaker 3: one sasspatch encounter I had in Oklahoma sort of fit
Speaker 3: that model. That's why I don't think they're necessarily generating
Speaker 3: something that would always tip off their presence, because it
Speaker 3: seems like their whole lifestyles dependent on not being detected anything.
Speaker 3: So whatever percentage of their diet consists of animal protein,
Speaker 3: you know, if they're grabbing prey, they would just never
Speaker 3: eat if they constantly, if they were like generating something
Speaker 3: that let everything know like, hey, I'm here all the
Speaker 3: time versus you know, these these other examples. But yeah,
Speaker 3: that's that's an interesting one for sure.
Speaker 2: Well, unless they didn't want you there, which is what
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of the human things are.
Speaker 2: Because I don't think we're necessarily seeing its prey species
Speaker 2: for sasquatches, and as evidence of that is we're all here,
Speaker 2: you know, but we would have been killed by now
Speaker 2: if that was the case. But I think that if
Speaker 2: if a sasquatch says it finds us camping in their
Speaker 2: zone and they're saying this isn't cool, they might they
Speaker 2: might be over there growling, But I would agree that
Speaker 2: they certain in my opinion, they almost certainly do not
Speaker 2: know that we cannot hear any infrasonic noises that they
Speaker 2: emit in the same sort of way that I'm convinced
Speaker 2: that they don't know that we can't see in the dark,
Speaker 2: because you know the thermal imaging shots that are available
Speaker 2: out there. They're all hiding, you know, Like, why would
Speaker 2: they be hiding from us if they know that we
Speaker 2: can't see them in the dark. Right, So it's like
Speaker 2: when I was in fifth grade and somebody told me
Speaker 2: that dogs are color blind. I couldn't really wrap my
Speaker 2: head around that because I wasn't colorblind. I think that
Speaker 2: they have the same sort of intellect, you know that
Speaker 2: outside of their experience, it's really hard for them to
Speaker 2: figure that out, you know. So why would they be
Speaker 2: making noise if they can hear it and we can't.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't know that we can't hear it.
Speaker 1: I had a guy on the show. I've talked about
Speaker 1: this many times, and you bring up a good point, Cliff,
Speaker 1: about you know, why don't they attack more people? I
Speaker 1: often wonder that. I mean, I'll hear our encounters where
Speaker 1: I think this guy's dead. I mean, I'm talking to
Speaker 1: him on the phone. He's obviously not dead. But they
Speaker 1: seem like they get so pissed to a certain point,
Speaker 1: but generally they don't kill you. And I've always wondered
Speaker 1: about that. Oh. I had this guy on the show
Speaker 1: one time and he I always used the Finding Bigfoot illustration.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, and he watched the guys on
Speaker 1: Finding Bigfoot how it looks like they're lit up when
Speaker 1: like Cliff or Bobo or Renee, they had their cameras
Speaker 1: right in front of their face, and I was like,
Speaker 1: they're actually walking around there dark. That's actually this infrared
Speaker 1: light hitting them. And I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: have wondered if Sasquatch could actually see that infrared light.
Speaker 1: Obviously I don't know, but this is just an illustration
Speaker 1: of what someone told me. But he had these things
Speaker 1: on his property, right, and he was trying to get
Speaker 1: them on video. And he goes out there one night
Speaker 1: and he's up on this hillside and I know the
Speaker 1: camera camera ed was a cannon. It was a night
Speaker 1: visioning camera where you press a button and that infrared
Speaker 1: light kicks out. Well, without that infrared light, you just
Speaker 1: have starlight to kind of see. And he sees these
Speaker 1: two guys down below him while he's up on this
Speaker 1: ridge and it looks like they're talking to each other.
Speaker 1: He's like, is that my neighbor? Is that my neighbor
Speaker 1: on my property? And you know, he totally threw bigfoot
Speaker 1: out the window for some reason. He was like, it's
Speaker 1: got to be one of my neighbors. And he was
Speaker 1: on the starlight portion of the camera. Well, he clicked
Speaker 1: that button. And I know the camera because I used
Speaker 1: to own one as well, But he clicked that button
Speaker 1: and that infrared beam comes out, which really lights it
Speaker 1: up when you're looking through the eyehole of the camera.
Speaker 1: The minute he hit that button, it was two of
Speaker 1: these creatures. They both turned and looked right at him,
Speaker 1: like he had turned on a flashlight or something and
Speaker 1: shined it right on them. And so it does make
Speaker 1: me wonder, you know, if they can see in these
Speaker 1: different spectrums or hear in these different spectrums that we can't.
Speaker 3: I totally think they do. I've had that experience with
Speaker 3: Elk in the dark, you know, where I'm watching Elk
Speaker 3: through a night vision unit and then I turned on
Speaker 3: the infrared illuminator and it.
Speaker 4: Just turns and looks right at me.
Speaker 3: And then with game cameras, I've seen the same phenomenon where,
Speaker 3: you know, I use these Verreconics game cameras in the
Speaker 3: field for years, because you know, infrared light only refers
Speaker 3: to the human visible spectrum, so it's infrared as any
Speaker 3: below the human ability to detect. And so I had
Speaker 3: a number of pictures from these stationary cameras where animals
Speaker 3: would walk right by them during the daytime and never
Speaker 3: look at them all seasons, you know, so summer you
Speaker 3: could assume it'd be noisy with like insects sounds the
Speaker 3: day and night in the wintertime when it's totally dead
Speaker 3: and quiet, and during the daytime they'd walk right by,
Speaker 3: and at night they'd stop and look right at the camera.
Speaker 3: And so I don't think it was that they were
Speaker 3: hearing it or that they were smelling it, because then
Speaker 3: you'd think, well, hearing and smelling are not light dependent,
Speaker 3: because the camera's not firing that ir flash during the daytime,
Speaker 3: and you know, if they were hearing it smelling it,
Speaker 3: they should be just as interested in it as day
Speaker 3: or night. But it was only at night that they'd
Speaker 3: stop and stare and look right at that flashing light.
Speaker 3: And so most mammals that operate at night, can see
Speaker 3: into the infrared range or the near ir range at
Speaker 3: the very least, So to me, it would make perfect
Speaker 3: sense that these things could too.
Speaker 2: Well, there's two I have two data points for my
Speaker 2: supposition that they do that exactly that same thing, seeing
Speaker 2: a little bit at least into the for red. And
Speaker 2: number one is the Kentucky pancake video, which I think
Speaker 2: is legitimate and its attributed again to Matt Moneymaker, was
Speaker 2: part of the Ericson project where the lady put out
Speaker 2: the thing of food in that infrared spotlight and it
Speaker 2: did not enter the spotlight when the sasquatch came up
Speaker 2: to grab it, it stayed at the edge of the
Speaker 2: spotlight and reached in and picked up the plate and
Speaker 2: sat there at the edge outside the light and ate
Speaker 2: the thing, which I thought was interesting. And also the
Speaker 2: case when Bobo and I were out at the water
Speaker 2: spot and we had sasquatches there that night. It was
Speaker 2: one of the crazier nights I've ever experienced, and I
Speaker 2: think Boba would probably back that up. The thing was
Speaker 2: making as much noise as it possibly could to scare
Speaker 2: us away by splashing in the water of this swampy
Speaker 2: area that we were camped next to. That's what we
Speaker 2: call it, the water spot, and it was just going crazy.
Speaker 2: It's going like bananas. And then I had one of
Speaker 2: those Sony night shot cameras because this is way I
Speaker 2: don't even know what year, Bobo, what do you think,
Speaker 2: like two thousand and two or three or something. I've
Speaker 2: no idea. You're five six, I have no idea.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: I had one of these Sony night shot cameras and
Speaker 2: I was just I was going to turn it on
Speaker 2: to record the noise, you know, because at the time
Speaker 2: I was still working with mini disc players and my
Speaker 2: mini disc had run out of whatever, and I didn't
Speaker 2: nothing was recording at the time, you know, And so
Speaker 2: I turned on the camera just to record the noise.
Speaker 2: But unbeknownst to me, the night shot was enabled, and
Speaker 2: it was about a foot above the ground, all the
Speaker 2: way on the other side of this pond. Thing that's
Speaker 2: got to be you know what is that, Bobes. You're
Speaker 2: good at distances one hundred and twenty yards or something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 4: Oh from where it was, Yeah, it was it was
Speaker 4: a good hundred and ten yards. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I always ask a football guy. If you don't know,
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, So that and the second I turned
Speaker 2: it on, even though it was facing the ground, like
Speaker 2: a foot above the ground and that far away, instantaneously,
Speaker 2: at the exact same moment, all activities stopped and it
Speaker 2: went completely silent after that. So that that was pretty
Speaker 2: telling to me, because I don't think that was just
Speaker 2: a coincidence. I think they saw that I turned on
Speaker 2: a light of some sort and then it just totally
Speaker 2: went dead quiet. So I've got two data points to
Speaker 2: sup support my hypothesis on that one. I do think
Speaker 2: they see in the infrared.
Speaker 4: They do. They totally do.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after these messages.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, you hear so many your reference stories like oh,
Speaker 4: I've heard this off the air. They wouldn't go on
Speaker 4: the air. Like, what's some stories you can tell us
Speaker 4: like that you heard over the years that didn't make
Speaker 4: it to the show.
Speaker 1: There's a couple I remember I had this and this
Speaker 1: kind of fascinated me. This eyewitness from Washington. He was
Speaker 1: actually near Bumping Lake. I think he was farther up
Speaker 1: in the hills though I don't think he was actually
Speaker 1: on the lake, but he was out there camping. He
Speaker 1: was doing bushcraft, and he's kind of in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere out there, and so he sets up. This
Speaker 1: guy sets up his camp. And I've had so many
Speaker 1: people run out of Bumping Lake, by the way, but
Speaker 1: this guy set up his camp. And the next day
Speaker 1: he decides to go for like this long walk and
Speaker 1: he comes back to his camp and all of his
Speaker 1: stuff had been gone through like a person had gone
Speaker 1: through it. And I'd asked him if anything was missing,
Speaker 1: and he said that this guy does road construction. And
Speaker 1: he said that his bright orange vest, anything bright orange,
Speaker 1: was taken out of his bag. And so he really
Speaker 1: thought someone was screwing with him that night or during,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole time he was out there. Well,
Speaker 1: that night he falls asleep and he heard this huge
Speaker 1: crash through the bushes, and this thing sprincester his camp
Speaker 1: and as it ran by his tent, it actually ran
Speaker 1: its hand across the top of the tent, or what
Speaker 1: he assumed was the hand across the top of his tent.
Speaker 1: And so now in his mind, you know, this is someone.
Speaker 1: So he jumps out of his tent with a gun,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing, and he talked about the force being silent.
Speaker 1: He said, everything was dead silent, no crickets, nothing, and
Speaker 1: we kind of talked about that earlier. But the next
Speaker 1: day he goes out, decides to go hiking again, and
Speaker 1: he leaves. And every time he went hiking, he was
Speaker 1: there for a total of three days. Every time he
Speaker 1: went hiking, he would always leave the same way and
Speaker 1: come back the same way, and same thing he would
Speaker 1: he took off, he went hiking, he came back to
Speaker 1: his camp and his tent was actually the stakes were
Speaker 1: pulled up and the tent was turned one hundred and
Speaker 1: eighty degrees away from the woodline. And so again that
Speaker 1: night there's weird things going on. He said he felt
Speaker 1: like there was pebbles being thrown at his tent and
Speaker 1: he couldn't really and he would yell at whoever this was.
Speaker 1: He was like, you know, I got a gun, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna shoot you, and no response back, nothing, And during
Speaker 1: the day it would be quiet. It seemed like it
Speaker 1: only happened at night. He couldn't really figure out how
Speaker 1: this person unless they hiked in, because there's really nowhere
Speaker 1: to kind of drive into where he was at well.
Speaker 1: The third day, he gets up, he goes for a
Speaker 1: hike and he leaves the same way he always leaves
Speaker 1: to go for a hike when he you know, exits
Speaker 1: the camp and on his way back, he kind of
Speaker 1: got turned around and he couldn't figure out exactly how
Speaker 1: to get back to his camp. So he takes a
Speaker 1: little bit of time trying to get back to the
Speaker 1: camp and he comes back from a completely different route.
Speaker 1: And when he came back to camp, he said he
Speaker 1: was kind of coming in quietly in case this person
Speaker 1: was in the camp. He was going to confront him.
Speaker 1: Before he left. That morning, he actually put his fire out,
Speaker 1: and you know sometimes those fires kicked back up if
Speaker 1: you really don't dump water on them, or you know
Speaker 1: a lot of winds going on, those coalsl kick back up. Well,
Speaker 1: this fire had kicked back up, and he had thought
Speaker 1: he'd put it out, but when he walked into camp,
Speaker 1: what he saw was like this four foot tall creature
Speaker 1: and what it was doing is it was grabbing the
Speaker 1: logs out of the fire and it would look at
Speaker 1: him and drop one, grabbing another one. Look at it
Speaker 1: and he said it would make it was making really
Speaker 1: odd noises like ooh ah. And it was really the
Speaker 1: expressions on its face, he said, reminded of him, well
Speaker 1: love like a kid, you know, a kid in wonderment
Speaker 1: or a kid that's amazed. And one time he had
Speaker 1: reached in and actually grabbed one of the logs and
Speaker 1: he sitting there watching this from the woodline. He described
Speaker 1: this whole creature. It was black, it was covered in
Speaker 1: kind of a reddish blackish hair. The last time I
Speaker 1: grabbed a log, he thinks it burned its hand because
Speaker 1: it dropped the log and it screamed. And when it screamed,
Speaker 1: he said, it was like almost like a pain scream.
Speaker 1: But he said it was so loud, just the sound
Speaker 1: of saying coming off. And he goes, this creature really
Speaker 1: wasn't that big. He goes, I'm talking four four and
Speaker 1: a half feet tall. But when it screamed, he goes,
Speaker 1: I felt the scream. I felt like my organs felt
Speaker 1: like they were shaking when this thing screamed. And it
Speaker 1: ended up running off and he packed up and got
Speaker 1: you know, got out of there. But I've had a
Speaker 1: I had a guy run out of Bumping Lake, this
Speaker 1: older gentleman, he was in that area he was camping
Speaker 1: and he had called me. He doesn't believe in Bigfoot,
Speaker 1: by the way, he said, it was some ape, but
Speaker 1: he had pulled into He was actually camping on the lake.
Speaker 1: He had pulled in set up his camp. He said
Speaker 1: the sun was just going down and he was starting
Speaker 1: to light a fire when this ape looking thing came
Speaker 1: crashing into his camp and he said it looked pissed.
Speaker 1: He said that the face on it was pure rage,
Speaker 1: and he didn't know what it was. He didn't know
Speaker 1: why this thing was pissed off. He told me he
Speaker 1: thought it was an ape that probably escaped from the zoo.
Speaker 1: But as he described it, I mean, this ape is
Speaker 1: eight feet tall. It's huge. I mean, there's nothing about it. It
Speaker 1: sounds like an ape. But it had actually picked up
Speaker 1: his cooler and had thrown it. And he goes, when
Speaker 1: I talk about it, and he goes, this cooler was
Speaker 1: full of water, ice, all my food. He goes, I
Speaker 1: was going to be there a week. It was a
Speaker 1: heavy cooler. He said, this thing picked it up like
Speaker 1: you and I would pick up a shoe and just
Speaker 1: toss it. And he said it had white teeth, had
Speaker 1: teeth like a man. He said, had big, square teeth,
Speaker 1: and it was just pissed. And he thought that this
Speaker 1: thing was going to kill him. And he said it
Speaker 1: would growl and it would mumble, and he said, you know,
Speaker 1: my little dog does that. He goes, when my dog's growling,
Speaker 1: it almost sounds like it's like it's grumbling to itself.
Speaker 1: He goes, that's kind of what this thing was doing.
Speaker 1: It eventually left, but before it left, it screamed at him,
Speaker 1: and he goes. The weirdest part about it screaming, He goes,
Speaker 1: it almost like did a bow, but its head wasn't
Speaker 1: facing the ground. It was facing me. And he said
Speaker 1: it just went out. He could see it taking all
Speaker 1: this breath and it screamed at him and like you
Speaker 1: were saying bubbo earlier with like infrasound. He goes, I
Speaker 1: felt like I was stunned, you know, And that might
Speaker 1: have been fear. I mean, I probably would have said
Speaker 1: the same thing if something that big was screaming at me.
Speaker 1: But and he said it went marching off into the forest.
Speaker 1: It didn't really run off, he said, it just kind
Speaker 1: of walked back into the forest. He got in his
Speaker 1: truck and left, and he called me and said, he
Speaker 1: told me exactly where his camp was at, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I left behind thousands of dollars of stuff. He goes,
Speaker 1: if you want it west, it's yours. I'm not going back.
Speaker 1: And this guy was like in his late sixties. But
Speaker 1: he refused to say it was bigfoot because he did
Speaker 1: you know, bigfoot doesn't exist. He was sure it was
Speaker 1: some ape that escaped from a zoo or something like that,
Speaker 1: which in you know, makes no sense at all. But
Speaker 1: you guys know that area bumping the lake, don't you.
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you guys had experiences there? I mean I've
Speaker 1: had a lot of my witnesses come forward.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was right there when Bart had his famous
Speaker 4: sighting up there. I was with him. Actually, I was like, dude,
Speaker 4: I'd go sit outside of camp and then he experienced that.
Speaker 4: And then after he saw that, I went out and
Speaker 4: I had to go number dose. It was actually the
Speaker 4: same area where he saw it. I walked out a
Speaker 4: couple like I don't know, two hundred yards and dug
Speaker 4: a hole and I was due to my biz. All
Speaker 4: of a sudden, I got something ran at me full
Speaker 4: speed through the woods like big heavy bipeople just boom,
Speaker 4: boom boom, and I said, damn it, I'm taking a turn,
Speaker 4: get the hell out of here, and it just stopped.
Speaker 4: And then later that night, I was with my buddy
Speaker 4: Jamie Jayden and he had like a nine months old
Speaker 4: some of them. We were in the same tent and
Speaker 4: there was two smaller ones going back and forth around,
Speaker 4: going into the camp and out of the camp, and
Speaker 4: like you know, it was dragging. It's doing that whole
Speaker 4: thing about running its fingers along the side of the
Speaker 4: tent as it walked by on the roof, and just
Speaker 4: that mumbling like you can't make out words or language,
Speaker 4: but it's like you know, something's talking about. You can't
Speaker 4: make anything out if you're hearing that, like grumbly, low
Speaker 4: mumbling stuff. And I've heard some screams there, and yeah,
Speaker 4: stuff's happen when I've been there. Yeah, it's a great spot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's consistent too. It's been a long time. I
Speaker 2: know several people have seen them there. And I was
Speaker 2: standing twenty thirty feet from Bart when he saw his.
Speaker 2: I was just distracted elsewhere because it was dark, you know,
Speaker 2: and he Bart didn't say anything, He just kept snapping.
Speaker 2: I mean, what is he just snapping about feeling all
Speaker 2: snappy at me.
Speaker 1: Why do you think they're in that area, Cliff? Why
Speaker 1: do you think they hang out, especially at Bumping Lake.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what it is. I've only
Speaker 2: been there once or twice, so I'm not an expert
Speaker 2: in the area by any means. You know, I know
Speaker 2: a little bit about the geography and stuff. But what
Speaker 2: I find, at least from the areas that I tend
Speaker 2: to work, is that they're in the same areas all
Speaker 2: the time. Like, I really don't think they leave. And
Speaker 2: this whole migration thing, I don't know where that that
Speaker 2: came from. This whole migrating thing, there's just zero evidence
Speaker 2: of that. You know, it's ridiculous to me at least
Speaker 2: because the spots that I'm working, we're finding the same
Speaker 2: individual's footprints year round, just just a few miles apart.
Speaker 2: It's mostly an elevation change and that's really all it is.
Speaker 2: But again, you got to look at the zones, right,
Speaker 2: So what is it about that area? It's probably going
Speaker 2: to come down to well, food, water and cover, and
Speaker 2: with sasquatches, you have to look a little bit further
Speaker 2: and think about strategic terrain, what sort what features in
Speaker 2: that environment enable them to get a step up on
Speaker 2: whatever animals are going after, or on the converse, using
Speaker 2: the same skills to create some sort of defensive strategy.
Speaker 2: What can I observe what's going on and then get
Speaker 2: out quickly? And it probably has to do with the
Speaker 2: steep sides to that, I mean, because it's not all
Speaker 2: isolated the bumping Lake. I mean, I've seen footprints from
Speaker 2: a place called Rattlesnake. I think it's a creek just
Speaker 2: a little bit up the slope from there. The next
Speaker 2: valley over produces stuff too, So it's that zone. There's
Speaker 2: a group of sasquatches in that zone that probably stay
Speaker 2: there most if not all, of the year, essentially just
Speaker 2: move up and down the slopes depending on what the
Speaker 2: weather's doing. But once they are there, and this has
Speaker 2: been coined as the halibut effect, you can look at
Speaker 2: locations that were active twenty fifty, one hundred or more
Speaker 2: years ago, and if the area has not changed dramatically,
Speaker 2: in other words, been paved or something like that, the
Speaker 2: sasquatches are almost certainly still there. Whatever it is about
Speaker 2: the zone, they stay in the same area and I'm
Speaker 2: really interested to see that if after Discovery Day happens,
Speaker 2: after these things are academically accepted species here in North
Speaker 2: America that you can study using wildlife biology methods and
Speaker 2: things like that, if there's going to be some sort
Speaker 2: of like you know, for lack of better terms, almost
Speaker 2: like a cultural territory where like families have lived for
Speaker 2: generations and they just don't leave because that's what they do,
Speaker 2: you know, because why leave if everything you need is there?
Speaker 2: And so it's going to be interesting to see. I
Speaker 2: think that that will be on the table after academic
Speaker 2: acceptance of the species and maybe has something to you know,
Speaker 2: we can look at ourselves. I think when we look
Speaker 2: when we look towards sasquatches as well as the other
Speaker 2: ape species, we're holding mirrors up to ourselves, right because
Speaker 2: we learn about say like the process of grieving through
Speaker 2: studying chimps, you know, or compassion or warfare for that matter,
Speaker 2: by studying chimpanzees. Right, Well, it goes two ways. We
Speaker 2: can look at ourselves and learn and at least hypothesize
Speaker 2: a little bit about sasquatches I believe, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: they're not humans by any stretchy imagination. But they're in
Speaker 2: our family. Just like you can learn a little bit
Speaker 2: about your say, your brother or sister by looking at yourself,
Speaker 2: you can learn a little bit about their species by
Speaker 2: looking at ourselves. And the fact that many of us
Speaker 2: are home bodies and like have seventh generation Oregonian or
Speaker 2: whatever these people claim, you know, that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: you can probably find some sort of parallel behavior in
Speaker 2: their species based on our own, you know. So, I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's going to be interesting. And these areas,
Speaker 2: there's something about them. They like, everything they need is there,
Speaker 2: and at the end of the day, if you have
Speaker 2: everything you want, why leave, you know? And that might
Speaker 2: be a generational, multi generational phenomenon for all I know.
Speaker 4: Oh, I definitely think it is.
Speaker 3: Like there's a really interesting study of chimpanzee cognition that
Speaker 3: I referenced in the book, but it basically looks at
Speaker 3: how much of like the chimpanzee cognitive capacity is devoted
Speaker 3: to mapping not just space but time. You know, they're
Speaker 3: in a different environment. It's not a temperate environment like
Speaker 3: North America, but we do obviously have subtropics and temperate environments,
Speaker 3: et cetera. But because resources are paturally distributed, like in
Speaker 3: a given forest, you know, the fruit let's say, berries, apples,
Speaker 3: whatever the case, maybe is not evenly distributed. You know,
Speaker 3: they'll be in patches or you know, certain clusters of
Speaker 3: certain foods. So there's this spatial mapping that's required to
Speaker 3: locate and memorize places the most beneficial routes of ingress
Speaker 3: and egress to and from those places. But also they're
Speaker 3: ephemeral because they're seasonal, so they're not always you know,
Speaker 3: ripening or available, et cetera. So they're constantly mapping space
Speaker 3: and time for a significant portion of their development, and
Speaker 3: then they operate within that map throughout their lives. And
Speaker 3: that's probably a big part of like hominoid cognition in general,
Speaker 3: and so I think the same would apply to sasquatch.
Speaker 3: It's like they seem like they have an intimate familiarity
Speaker 3: of the areas that they live in and a map
Speaker 3: of that of space and time, which would include the
Speaker 3: patterning of human activity. And you think if they were
Speaker 3: migrating and they were constantly inserting themselves into environments with
Speaker 3: which they were unfamiliar. First of all, they have to
Speaker 3: cross so many roads and interstates, you know, not just
Speaker 3: the two lane country road that people see them cross,
Speaker 3: but then also like they would have no idea where
Speaker 3: the best water sources were, where the prey aggregate, where
Speaker 3: humans come and go the most often. You know, I
Speaker 3: think the sidings would be so much more numerous if
Speaker 3: they were just constantly stumbling into places that they were
Speaker 3: unfamiliar with.
Speaker 2: You know, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with
Speaker 2: Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back after these messages.
Speaker 1: But going back to what you guys were just saying,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you would consider this migration, Cliff,
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd really consider it. But back in
Speaker 1: I honestly it was twenty fifteen. For about a two
Speaker 1: year period, I would get these eyewitnesses that we're all
Speaker 1: seeing the same creature. None of them actually came on
Speaker 1: the air. I think maybe one of them did, but
Speaker 1: all of them I talked to you privately. It was
Speaker 1: this large gray sasquatch that people would describe as being
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes people say, well they you know, their
Speaker 1: hair was clean, and this one wasn't like that, This
Speaker 1: saying was dirty. It was filthy and had a piss
Speaker 1: poor attitude. But one of the unique features about their
Speaker 1: creature is had a scar across his chest, almost like
Speaker 1: you know, like you'd have someone cut you with a
Speaker 1: knife or something, had this huge scar across his chest.
Speaker 1: And eyewitnesses would contact me and again, over to year period,
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of people that had run
Speaker 1: into this creature.
Speaker 4: I heard the same stories I heard about that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's fascinating because they would all describe this
Speaker 1: same creature. And by the fourth or fifth one, I
Speaker 1: was like, did have a scar on his chest? And
Speaker 1: people would stop. There'd be like this long pause on
Speaker 1: the phone. They'd be like, well, how did you know that?
Speaker 1: And it's because people locals in the area were telling
Speaker 1: me about it. But what was weird is in the
Speaker 1: summertime you would almost find it closer up towards Mount
Speaker 1: Saint Helens, and in the winter time you would find
Speaker 1: it down kind of off the mountain, you know, near
Speaker 1: yakole Yale, that it would come all actually come off
Speaker 1: the mountain and it would do this whole like weird
Speaker 1: counterclockwise circle. People were even seeing it down near the
Speaker 1: Columbia River and it would circle back up. But it
Speaker 1: seems like the hotter it got the farther up the
Speaker 1: mountain it went, the colder it got the more it
Speaker 1: came down. And I don't know if it was following
Speaker 1: animals or not, but and I don't even know if
Speaker 1: i'd really consider that migration.
Speaker 2: Well, the furthest distance that I've said this before, but
Speaker 2: the furthest distance I'm aware of that two sat that
Speaker 2: at the same sasquatch has almost certainly been found is
Speaker 2: sit about sixty miles and that is, of course the
Speaker 2: sasquatch that we named the species at Bigfoot, you know,
Speaker 2: because we have Bigfoot's footprint from Bluff Creek in nineteen
Speaker 2: fifty eight to nineteen sixty three, nineteen maybe nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixty three and for sure and then down
Speaker 2: in High Impalm, which is sixty miles away but also
Speaker 2: on one ridge, one mountain ridge. So right now I
Speaker 2: happen to have my Google Maps open, we're looking at
Speaker 2: twenty miles between Mount Saint Helens and the river and
Speaker 2: the Columbia River, and it's significantly shorter, so I'm that's
Speaker 2: well within the zone now. But this is also a
Speaker 2: singular case. And if my model, my hypothetical model of
Speaker 2: sasquatch social structure, which is loosely based on the orangutan structure,
Speaker 2: is correct. If it's a big male of some sort,
Speaker 2: then they would expect to be ranging a bit further
Speaker 2: than the other ones, because what I think is going
Speaker 2: on is a female and its offspring hang out in
Speaker 2: a smaller area than the male, and that abuts another
Speaker 2: female in an offspring of abutting another female in an
Speaker 2: offspring sort of thing, and then the big male moves
Speaker 2: through and does booty calls essentially with his harem essentially.
Speaker 2: So we're looking at twenty mile between Mount Saint Helens
Speaker 2: and the river versus sixty miles between Bluff Creek and
Speaker 2: High Impalm with another set of females down there, not Patty,
Speaker 2: which is what the female was up in Bluff Creek,
Speaker 2: but a different one in High Impalm. So I think
Speaker 2: that's well within reasonable range. But again I would even
Speaker 2: have to wonder, like if it was gray, could that
Speaker 2: be an indicator of age? And I'm Matt, I know
Speaker 2: you've done some work with old, older male silverback gorillas,
Speaker 2: reading about them kind of returning to places where they
Speaker 2: once grew up because they were run out of their
Speaker 2: social group. At some point. You kind of have to
Speaker 2: wonder if a sasquatch has passed its prime and a younger,
Speaker 2: a young buck so to speak, comes up and displays them,
Speaker 2: is he going to be hanging out in the same
Speaker 2: areas or is he going to be wandering a little
Speaker 2: bit more widely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in those cases it was actually sub adults reaching adulthood,
Speaker 3: So it wasn't the older males being displaced, but it
Speaker 3: was sub adults being driven out by the current dominant
Speaker 3: male that were returning to these areas. And George Shaller
Speaker 3: wrote about that in The Mountain Gorilla Behavior in Ecology.
Speaker 4: Which is a great book.
Speaker 3: It details the first observational field study of mountain guerrillas
Speaker 3: that it ever occurred. But to that model, yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean that's the case with most mammalian species, and especially
Speaker 3: the analogous mammalian species like bears, have the same model.
Speaker 3: Where in Appalachia, a male will have a home range
Speaker 3: of about sixteen to eighteen square miles, the females are
Speaker 3: like two to four square miles. The same is true
Speaker 3: of tigers, like Siberian tigers, the male covers about fifteen
Speaker 3: hundred square kilometers. The females cover about four hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty square kilometers, and so if you apply that to
Speaker 3: the sasquatch, like it answers so many questions, but it also,
Speaker 3: like I think the most important one is like, if
Speaker 3: the males are moving that much and they're straying from
Speaker 3: defensible core areas and coming more into the periphery of
Speaker 3: human habitation because we're so prolific, that answers the question
Speaker 3: of like, why are most sasquatch sidings of lon males? Well,
Speaker 3: it's like there's a perfectly normal behavioral ecological reason for
Speaker 3: that that applies not only to apes but to these
Speaker 3: other analogous mammals as well.
Speaker 2: But again back to the point West, I wouldn't consider
Speaker 2: that necessarily a real strong migration as opposed to just
Speaker 2: wandering around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of what I thought too. And this
Speaker 1: particular creature had a real piss poor attitude. Like I said,
Speaker 1: it terrified everyone it ran into.
Speaker 3: That's a common feature of the large gray males, which
Speaker 3: I do think is a function of age. But when
Speaker 3: I was with the North American Woody Conservancy, there was
Speaker 3: a number of sidings down there of at least one
Speaker 3: very large gray individual, although some positive that there might
Speaker 3: have been two, but we did a whole episode because
Speaker 3: they colloquially would refer to that one as old Gray.
Speaker 3: And it was fairly bold, and I wouldn't say aggressive
Speaker 3: as much as just like confrontational, almost like direct confrontation,
Speaker 3: but without you didn't chase people or scream out a
Speaker 3: roar at them, but it would be pretty confrontational. And
Speaker 3: so if you go back through a lot of the literature,
Speaker 3: whether it's John Green's database or the things, you find that, like,
Speaker 3: these grayer ones tend to be very large, not just
Speaker 3: in height but in mass, because you know, you have
Speaker 3: these subadults that are almost of equal height, but they
Speaker 3: tend to darker in color and thin that sort of
Speaker 3: a lean, lanky basketball player Olympic swimmer build versus like
Speaker 3: something of the similar size, but it's just built like
Speaker 3: a you know, brick crap house, just big, thick and massive.
Speaker 3: And those gray ones tend to be like pretty confrontational
Speaker 3: in the sense of like they don't seem to have
Speaker 3: as much fear or avoidance of people, And so I'm
Speaker 3: always fascinated by those stories. So that's really interesting.
Speaker 2: Hey, Wes, you know you may have noticed we do
Speaker 2: a podcast too, And by the way, whatever it's worth
Speaker 2: whenever you you text us after our episodes come out
Speaker 2: and heckle us. I'm always flattered, by the way, because
Speaker 2: you're the you're the king of Bigfoot podcast. Honestly, I
Speaker 2: mean you really are. And uh so we deeply appreciate
Speaker 2: your help getting ours launched and everything. And and then
Speaker 2: you know, on a Tuesday or something, I'll get some
Speaker 2: heckling bust iner butt email or text from you and
Speaker 2: I said, oh crap, I forgot Wes is even listening,
Speaker 2: you know, because I forget anybody listens, but they do,
Speaker 2: and you're one of them. And it kind of makes
Speaker 2: me up my game a little bit and be extra
Speaker 2: thankful for our editor, Matt Pruitt. But doing a podcast
Speaker 2: is hard, man. It's not just sitting down once like
Speaker 2: an hour a week or something like that. There's a
Speaker 2: lot more that goes into this. And God, you're kind
Speaker 2: of a one man show in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: I must how many of these things do you pump?
Speaker 2: Like in a busy week, are you doing like two
Speaker 2: or three episodes? And I imagine you take a week
Speaker 2: or two off or something like are you doing two
Speaker 2: or three of these things a week sometimes?
Speaker 1: Or yeah, I do a public show and then I
Speaker 1: do a member show. But you guys know, I mean
Speaker 1: sometimes you're range for eyewitnesses to come on, then they
Speaker 1: don't show up, and so throughout every week, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to people, and but I mainly do two
Speaker 1: episodes a week, and it doesn't seem like much work.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think I turn on
Speaker 1: the mic and hit record and there you go, we're done.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot that goes into it. But to
Speaker 1: answer your question, Cliff, yeah, two a.
Speaker 2: Week, two a week, Yeah, because that's it's tough man
Speaker 2: stuff to even do that. And it doesn't sound like
Speaker 2: could be very hard, but from experience, it can be excruciating.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: People need to understand just like how big and awesome
Speaker 3: Wes's audiences and how generous Wes is. I remember when
Speaker 3: we first talked, Wes had reached out to me. We
Speaker 3: were talking about podcast production, and then he was like, so,
Speaker 3: why'd you pick a bigfoot podcast? And I was like,
Speaker 3: oh no, no, I'm not a podcast guy. I'm a bigfoot
Speaker 3: guy that just happens to do this. So then we
Speaker 3: talked about a Bigfoot for a few hours, and he
Speaker 3: promoted an episode or two of a podcast I was
Speaker 3: producing at the time, and we had this like massive
Speaker 3: spike in listenership, and so I reached out to you, Wes.
Speaker 3: I was like, dude, that was super kind to you, man,
Speaker 3: to bring people's attention to thank you so much. Wes
Speaker 3: was like, oh, no, dude, that was all you, brother,
Speaker 3: and I was like, no, it was not, it was
Speaker 3: you because it was this huge spike.
Speaker 4: So greatly appreciate that. Man.
Speaker 3: You've always been super generous with making our content available
Speaker 3: to your audience, and like I always say, like, whatever
Speaker 3: we give you props, I'm like, well, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 3: one hundred percent of our liststeners listened to Sasquatch Chronicles,
Speaker 3: So we're preaching the choir, but we do so happily
Speaker 3: because you've always been so generous to us.
Speaker 1: Oh. I appreciate it, guys, and I appreciate the kind
Speaker 1: of words. I don't know if I'm the king of
Speaker 1: the Bigfoot podcast. I think you're the only one that
Speaker 1: says that, Cliff, but.
Speaker 4: I'm going that says it. We all say it. I
Speaker 4: said it first. I've been doing it for twenty years.
Speaker 1: I made up the word king.
Speaker 2: And when I first saw that, you were, you know,
Speaker 2: retweeting or reposting our episodes and thinking what is this?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it was just amazing. It was just
Speaker 2: it was humbling, honestly, you know, yeah, because you know whatever,
Speaker 2: we're on TV and stuff. But that's stupid, man, Like,
Speaker 2: you have a huge listenership every single week and it
Speaker 2: keeps coming back from more and you've been killing to
Speaker 2: sing for for how long has Sasqatch Chronicle has been
Speaker 2: on the air now, and it's forever right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was two thousand and twelve, I think, or thirteen.
Speaker 4: Twelve, thirteen years. Yeah, that's crazy. It is crazy. We
Speaker 4: doubled our We doubled our listenership after I was on
Speaker 4: a guest on West's show. We doubled our listenership in
Speaker 4: like ten days.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've seen those things happen many times, like
Speaker 3: when Wes had you guys on and it was great
Speaker 3: to see. So it's super cool that you know you've
Speaker 3: stuck with it this many years and that you're you know,
Speaker 3: you've built such an awesome loyal audience and that they're
Speaker 3: so open minded to listening to other sasquatch related shows too.
Speaker 3: Like it's that's like the quiet side of the community
Speaker 3: that people just don't realize exist, you know. They they
Speaker 3: just see this sort of like content creators and talking heads.
Speaker 3: They don't realize, like now, man, there's a lot of
Speaker 3: people out there who are super interested in this subject.
Speaker 3: They just don't go around like posting about it.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's it's guys like John Bennernuggle. You know, when him
Speaker 1: and I became friends, and you know, he meant a
Speaker 1: lot to me, and he would always tell me, you know,
Speaker 1: be kind of people, be humble, try to have those
Speaker 1: qualities because it'll it'll bring more people in. He goes,
Speaker 1: there's enough arrogance, there's enough egos in the bigfoot world
Speaker 1: that just be different. And you know, I would watch
Speaker 1: John and even Bob Gimlin at these conferences, and I
Speaker 1: mean the nicest guys. I saw a lot of crazy
Speaker 1: people go up to John a lot where I probably
Speaker 1: would have ended the conversation, but he sat there and
Speaker 1: talked to them. I never heard him speak poorly of anyone,
Speaker 1: you know, so it kind of gave me a goal
Speaker 1: to shoot for. You know, the bigfoot world is ugly enough.
Speaker 1: There's enough egos, and I try and stay out of it,
Speaker 1: you know, with the different researchers and everything else. And
Speaker 1: with the podcasting world. That's what I and you and
Speaker 1: I were talking about this Matt at Cliff's house, you know,
Speaker 1: the podcasting world, I really especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: like Bigfoot and cryptids and stuff like that. And they're
Speaker 1: not everyone's like this, but I will say most of
Speaker 1: the podcasters are really super easy to get along with.
Speaker 1: They're really you see a lot of the ego die Dama,
Speaker 1: and you know, if I contributed to that in some
Speaker 1: little way, then I mean that would make me happier
Speaker 1: than anything else, just changing the dynamic and changing the
Speaker 1: attitude in the room, because you don't quite get the
Speaker 1: the attitude you get with like in the bigfoot world,
Speaker 1: that you don't get it with the podcasters. The podcasters
Speaker 1: generally are pretty cool guys. And it's like I tell people, man,
Speaker 1: it's hey, if we all help each other, it's your
Speaker 1: success is my success. My success is your success.
Speaker 4: Dude. You're cool guys, and even rip off your whole
Speaker 4: freaking just copy you completely.
Speaker 1: You're still yeah, which can be difficult at times. I'm human,
Speaker 1: but you know, I try. I try to be nice
Speaker 1: to everyone, and I really try to help everyone, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's been me. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I think that's really how you change the attitude of
Speaker 1: the big Foot world. If these guys don't have an ego,
Speaker 1: then why do you have an ego? You know? Or
Speaker 1: like you? And you and Cliff, I mean, you guys
Speaker 1: were on TV. You guys are coolest guys on the planet,
Speaker 1: most laid back guys on the planet, fun to hang
Speaker 1: out with. And if anyone's going to have an ego,
Speaker 1: you guys should have an ego and you don't, So
Speaker 1: it just makes it makes it more welcoming for more
Speaker 1: people to come into this subject, you know, newer people
Speaker 1: coming in.
Speaker 4: I think Bob Gimmel definitely was the example that a
Speaker 4: lot of us strive to be like like Fob because
Speaker 4: he's just so gracious.
Speaker 2: But I'm glad you brought up Bender Nagle as well,
Speaker 2: because he's again just the nicest, was the nicest kind
Speaker 2: of the planet and so much of a I feel
Speaker 2: like I will honestly be striving the rest of my
Speaker 2: life to have the patience and kindness that John showed
Speaker 2: to people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you a funny story. Johnny's to always
Speaker 1: put me in check because I would be like, well,
Speaker 1: it's an ape. And towards the end of John's life,
Speaker 1: I will say his attitude kind of changed a little bit.
Speaker 1: He was more willing to hear more of the weird
Speaker 1: stuff out and really think about it and give you
Speaker 1: his answer on it. And if he didn't know, he
Speaker 1: would say I don't know, but you know, he would
Speaker 1: he would put me in check in certain ways to
Speaker 1: where I would give an answer and John would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know you had it already, you had it all,
Speaker 1: figure it out, Well tell me more. You know. That
Speaker 1: was like his old man way of, you know, putting
Speaker 1: me in check, basically saying you don't know everything. But
Speaker 1: John was I love John. I did a whole thing
Speaker 1: for kind of remembering him. And it was the week
Speaker 1: he died and I couldn't even get the show out.
Speaker 1: I tried to record it and I would break down
Speaker 1: in tears every time I tried to do that remembering John.
Speaker 1: And he called me right before he died and he
Speaker 1: was trying to say goodbye, and I wouldn't hear it.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to hear it, and I would I
Speaker 1: would tell him John, You're gonna be fine, you know,
Speaker 1: And I would cut him off, I don't you know.
Speaker 1: And I regret that now because he died the next day.
Speaker 1: But he was calling to say goobye and I didn't
Speaker 1: want to hear it. So John, John was if I
Speaker 1: could be half the man he was, I would be.
Speaker 1: I would call it a win.
Speaker 4: That's how That's how I first talked to you, was
Speaker 4: we need that thing for John, you give a tribute
Speaker 4: to him, contact you saying that was great, And then yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean we can't forget Joe and either as partner sidekicks.
Speaker 4: She was awesome too.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, let's go ahead and turn to the
Speaker 2: member section because we have a lot of questions we
Speaker 2: want to ask you with a more select listenership perhaps,
Speaker 2: And of course, if you want to be a member
Speaker 2: of the podcast, you know what to do. Go to
Speaker 2: the website, hit that button, or go to the link
Speaker 2: that Matt'll probably post below in the show notes. But Wes,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for taking some time out from
Speaker 2: your ridiculous schedule to join us. And be on our
Speaker 2: podcast because honestly, we would not be here in whatever
Speaker 2: position we have now in the Bigfoot podcasting world without
Speaker 2: your help. Your instrumental in getting us going and our
Speaker 2: canntinued success. And we can't thank you enough for that.
Speaker 2: So I really really appreciate your time and your guidance
Speaker 2: and your mentorship. Really do amen and your friendship.
Speaker 1: You guys are too kind. You guys are definitely too kind.
Speaker 1: Thank you again. It was my honor coming on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and keep doing what you're doing. It's obviously like
Speaker 3: influenced a lot of people. It brings a lot of
Speaker 3: people joy.
Speaker 4: We love to show. My wife and I were on
Speaker 4: the road.
Speaker 3: We listen to two episodes all the time, and of course,
Speaker 3: like I have a bunch of my favorites, a couple
Speaker 3: of those I want to ask you about in the
Speaker 3: member section. But just keep up the great work. It
Speaker 3: brings a lot of joy to a lot of folks.
Speaker 4: I got a question for you, Wes, what do you
Speaker 4: think these things are?
Speaker 3: Just can stay tuned to the member section to find
Speaker 3: out Wes's answer.
Speaker 2: Ripping you off.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if you wanted me to answer that or.
Speaker 4: I just do my west impersonations. All right, folks, well
Speaker 4: big thank you to Wes Germer. I mean you heard
Speaker 4: platitudes come from Matt and Cliff and I can say
Speaker 4: the same thing. Wes is a great guy. We appreciate them.
Speaker 4: But until next week, y'all keep it squad.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
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