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Speaker 1: This is Jonathan Feeshow. Welcome to the symbolic world, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so everyone, I am very happy to be

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Speaker 2: here with Peter Bogojin. All of you will know him,

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Speaker 2: you know if you're kind of in the conversation of

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Speaker 2: meaning and of uh, you know, the problem of woke

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Speaker 2: culture and how to react to it and how to

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Speaker 2: kind of save our Western society. He's now affiliated with

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Speaker 2: the University of Austin and we met in London last year.

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Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't during ARC like it was around

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Speaker 2: I think you know, it wasn't during ARC because before

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Speaker 2: we had a bit of a conversation by religion, and

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Speaker 2: we both were very critical of a lot of the

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Speaker 2: postmodern stuff because of how religious it is. And the

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Speaker 2: surprise in the discussion with Peter was wondering, well, if

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Speaker 2: you think that, why then do you like religion and

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Speaker 2: so or why do you not critical about against religion itself?

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Speaker 2: And so we thought it would be a great opportunity

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Speaker 2: to continue the conversation. So Peter, thanks for coming up.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Jonathan, thanks for having me. I think we met

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Speaker 3: at an unheard event, didn't we.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right, it was. Yeah, I forget

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Speaker 2: it was. It's actually the showing of your documentary, of

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Speaker 2: the documentary.

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Speaker 3: About Mike Nainis documentary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, about the whole paper, all the papers that

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Speaker 2: you wrote with Lindsay and yeah, yeah, it was a

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Speaker 2: great documentary the reformers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I Mike did a great job. And then in

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Speaker 3: that conversation, let's see, we were both fetching about the

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Speaker 3: new religion and the architecture of the new religion. And

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Speaker 3: I think I said to you, well, if you realize

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Speaker 3: that's a problem, why don't you realize that your religion

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Speaker 3: is a problem. And it's a The question is a version.

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Speaker 3: It has an old so I told you it has

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Speaker 3: an older pedigree in the literature. But it's a version

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Speaker 3: of John W. Loftus's outsider test for faith. And the

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Speaker 3: idea is that you want to look at your religion

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Speaker 3: as an outsider, as you and I are outsiders to

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Speaker 3: these religion religions as a as a Muslim, as an

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Speaker 3: outsider to you know, Pentecostalism. And they see speaking in

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Speaker 3: tongues of silly. I gave a talk about this years

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Speaker 3: ago at the East Jesus the Easter Bunny and other

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Speaker 3: delusions just say no. By the way, at that talk,

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Speaker 3: the original title of that talk was supposed to be

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Speaker 3: Jesus Mohammad and Other Delusions, Jesus Mohammad, the Easter Bunny

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Speaker 3: and other Delusions, just to say no, But the university

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Speaker 3: made me take out Mohammed, but it was fine to

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Speaker 3: keep Jesus in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course we all know that the case. But

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Speaker 2: everybody pretends to be open about Islam, but is really

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Speaker 2: just scared, is what it is, you know. And so

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Speaker 2: I think that the importance, like the first thing to

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Speaker 2: talk about is to see also, you know, when I

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Speaker 2: talk about religion, I think we're in some ways at

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Speaker 2: the outset, we're thinking about it a little differently. Like

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Speaker 2: for you, it seemed religion is like things that you believe,

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Speaker 2: let's say, that are often somewhat extraordinary, that that kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, that constitute the.

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Speaker 3: Group.

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Speaker 2: You know. I see religion at the outset as like

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Speaker 2: the word implies as the thing that binds us right,

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Speaker 2: And so for me, religion is an extension of many

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Speaker 2: other aspects. So religion isn't like a freak thing that

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Speaker 2: exists completely on its own, but it's an extension of

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Speaker 2: binding and so it's an extension of the manner in

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Speaker 2: which we recognize that multiplicity joins into unity. So if

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Speaker 2: you have a nation, you need a way for you

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Speaker 2: to know that you're a nation and not just a

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Speaker 2: bunch of strangers. There's something not just no, but participate, right,

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Speaker 2: It's not just like a mental knowledge. Have ways to

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Speaker 2: know and participate in the fact that you exist as one.

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Speaker 2: And that will even in terms of nation, will end

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Speaker 2: up looking like what we tend to think religion is. Right,

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Speaker 2: You'll have Washington, d c. With monuments that that remember

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Speaker 2: the people that founded it. People will go on pilgrimages,

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Speaker 2: they'll they'll go see these monuments to like participate and remember.

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Speaker 2: We'll have parades, We'll have will have you know, pledges,

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Speaker 2: we'll have a flag and songs, all these things that

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Speaker 2: are there to help us know and celebrate in the

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Speaker 2: unity we participate in. And so I see that scaling

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Speaker 2: at every level of participation, from the actually the person

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Speaker 2: first of all, then the family, then communities, cities, churches, clubs,

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Speaker 2: basket you know, teams, sports, teams. They all have a

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Speaker 2: way in which we need to know how to be together.

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Speaker 2: And so that's why the ritual of a church, to

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Speaker 2: me is the highest level because it tries to bind

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Speaker 2: us into the highest thing. It tries to bind us

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Speaker 2: in the high thing we can imagine. But a sports

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Speaker 2: scene will look religious too. It'll have a mascot, we'll

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Speaker 2: we'll have uniforms, we'll have you know, songs and ways

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Speaker 2: to know that this is our team and we're kind

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Speaker 2: of rooting for it. And so that's to me, maybe

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Speaker 2: that's the big difference at the outset, which is why

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Speaker 2: just to finish on this, which is why when I

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Speaker 2: look at the woke thing, I can see that it's

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Speaker 2: religious because it's it's a mode of binding that has celebration,

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Speaker 2: ritual you know, that has all of those things. But

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Speaker 2: it's but it is perverse, right, because you can have

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Speaker 2: manners of binding that are perverse, right. You can have

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Speaker 2: a street gang. The street gang will have rituals, will

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Speaker 2: have initiation, we'll have a name, costumes, all of that,

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Speaker 2: but it none but it leads you towards something that

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Speaker 2: is actually dangerous for the other you know, for the

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Speaker 2: other beings that exists in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I'm not buying the thing that binds us.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I'm not buying that is that I

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Speaker 3: think that it either doesn't capture the nuance or it's

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Speaker 3: missing something fundamental in that. When I think about religion,

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Speaker 3: I think about the reference to it has truth claims.

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Speaker 3: Sports teams don't have truth claims, and so if you

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Speaker 3: recognize the truth or not you if one recognizes the

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Speaker 3: truth claims of other religions is silly, and one recognizes

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Speaker 3: the trappings behind that, then it's unclear to me why

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Speaker 3: if one is reasoning honestly, why would one recognize that

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Speaker 3: the truth claims of one's own religion, as I don't know,

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Speaker 3: not epistemically sound. So I guess I'm not buying the

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Speaker 3: binding thing because there has to be Like Haunter Rent

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Speaker 3: talks about how to have an ideology means you must

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Speaker 3: believe it's true, right, I mean truth component to that

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Speaker 3: in which there's not. To a sports team, you adjudicate

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Speaker 3: those you know, like I know nothing about sports, but no.

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Speaker 2: There is a sport. There is a truth claim that

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Speaker 2: in sports. What I mean it's it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: little different, but it's you have to accept the identity

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Speaker 2: and the rules of the sport. You actually have to

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Speaker 2: accept those as being true. Relative to the sport. They're

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Speaker 2: not true in an absolute sense, but they're true relative

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Speaker 2: to the sport.

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Speaker 3: Right, those are conventions, Those are everybody knows that those

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Speaker 3: are arbitrary conventions, and they I wish I knew more

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Speaker 3: about sports. I could you know, give a soccer.

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Speaker 2: Or they're not completely arbitrary convention.

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Speaker 3: They have a pats No, I mean you can't bring

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Speaker 3: a chainsaw on into a boxing match, right, So, but

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Speaker 3: those those rules you.

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Speaker 2: Would you wouldn't make a sport of someone I don't know,

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Speaker 2: someone like rubbing the side of a table for two hours.

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Speaker 2: Like there are certain things that capture human attention that

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Speaker 2: are objective and that you can't you can't act. There's

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Speaker 2: a scale, there's a there's a scale of relevance in sport.

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Speaker 2: But all sports have aspects in common which make them

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Speaker 2: sport that are true, like that you don't that you

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Speaker 2: don't care about them. Right, you can make a sport

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Speaker 2: out of something completely ridiculous that nobody would actually love.

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Speaker 2: But if you make a sport that has the right

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Speaker 2: amount of of excellence in competition, there's a way to

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Speaker 2: know who's winning. There's all of these things that are

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Speaker 2: necessary for a sport to exist. So there's variability, but

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Speaker 2: there's still a bound there's a boundary to variability. So

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Speaker 2: you could see this right, Yeah, So so let's say

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Speaker 2: you could say, so I'm a Christian, I want to

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Speaker 2: be careful not to like freak people out, like I

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Speaker 2: am very much a Christian. They want be freaked out

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Speaker 2: about think that Mike freak out some of the Christians.

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Speaker 2: Is to say that in order to bind yourself at

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Speaker 2: the highest level right the way that that that unites

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Speaker 2: the most elements together, there's a there's a certain amount

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Speaker 2: of variability which is possible, but that amount of variability

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Speaker 2: is limited to the fact that we're binding ourself to

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Speaker 2: the highest thing. So, like you said, binding yourself to

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Speaker 2: a sport and binding yourself to the infinite source of

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Speaker 2: all things, that that gives you a mode of being

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Speaker 2: that encompasses all other modes of being, which is what

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Speaker 2: religion tends to do because it offers it offers identity,

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Speaker 2: it offers morality, it offers ways to come together in marriage,

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Speaker 2: in death, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That it

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Speaker 2: that it it also has a type of variability. So

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Speaker 2: like a good example would be the flying spaghetti monster,

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Speaker 2: Like the flying spaghetti monster is actually an impossible religion.

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Speaker 2: Like technically it's an impossible religion because it doesn't have

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Speaker 2: the characteristics necessary to bind you something real. But Islam

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Speaker 2: is sufficiently like although I disagree with some of the

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Speaker 2: tenets of Islam, it's sufficiently structured so that it can

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Speaker 2: do that. And if and if someone said, will replace

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Speaker 2: it with the flying spaghett then you wouldn't exist as

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Speaker 2: a religion.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So there's a lot going on in this conversation.

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Speaker 3: So I suggest before we go down or explore other topics,

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Speaker 3: we need to disinvigorate some terms, talk about some things.

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Speaker 3: So Big trew Stein talks about what you're talking about

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Speaker 3: in terms of the commonalities among sports and call some

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Speaker 3: family resemblances. So the resemblances, you could have a I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you could have a sport for rubbing

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Speaker 3: a table. I guess a gind of a sport for

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Speaker 3: anything you wanted to. And you, again, you have ways

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Speaker 3: to djudicate, you have conventions. But the difference with religion

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Speaker 3: is you're making you're not making truth claims. I mean

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Speaker 3: you're you're you're saying that we agree if you get

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Speaker 3: that again, I'm just making this up. If you kick

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Speaker 3: the ball through this net or whatever, you throw the

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Speaker 3: ball in this net at a certain number of feet,

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Speaker 3: you get two points and then I can't remember it is.

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Speaker 3: I think it's three points in basketball. Who the hell?

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Speaker 3: I have literally no idea that no big deal. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so something like that. But but we're talking about specific things.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about linguistic propositions, so sentences in which communities

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Speaker 3: agree that belief in those is fundamentally constitutive of what

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Speaker 3: it means to belong in the community. For example, they're

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Speaker 3: being historic and historical Jesus. Now, I know some people

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Speaker 3: who consider themselves Christians who don't accept the historicity of Jesus.

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Speaker 3: I mean that that's I mean, I couldn't care less

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Speaker 3: how people self. I don't. I mean I really in

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Speaker 3: that sense. So it's not a moral question or even

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Speaker 3: a political question. It's in the broader sense. I think

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Speaker 3: if you were to ask the overwhelming majority of Christians,

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Speaker 3: they would say to you, yes, you have to accept

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Speaker 3: that Jesus died for your sins and he was crucified,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, which basically Muslims don't believe. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: many Christians don't believe that. They don't know that Muslims

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Speaker 3: don't believe Jesus is crucified. But that's just parenthetical. So

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Speaker 3: the the the difference is to things that bind us.

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Speaker 3: Lots of things bind us. You can cook a meal

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Speaker 3: and bind us, But that's very different from a truth claim.

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Speaker 2: Right, So what my like, You're right that there is

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Speaker 2: a truth claim aspect to religion. But I do think

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Speaker 2: honestly that in the life of the world that has

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Speaker 2: always been a secondary thing to the participative reality of religion.

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Speaker 2: Which is what I mean is that even the truth claims,

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Speaker 2: the truth claims, the reason why we find the truth

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Speaker 2: claims important is because of what they offer downstream. Right,

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Speaker 2: So there's a downstream thing in the truth claim. So

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Speaker 2: it's like, it's not just like I just have these

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Speaker 2: arbitrary truth claims. I believe in certain things because they

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Speaker 2: offer a world in which I exist, and that world

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Speaker 2: has characteristics. And so the Christian story, for example, of

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Speaker 2: the teaching of Jesus, the death and the resurrection, the

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Speaker 2: cross becomes a model for being and so and then

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Speaker 2: it becomes the structure of our world. It structures our

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Speaker 2: perception and structures on morality. It structures are ethics, it

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Speaker 2: structures what we care about. It does all of that

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Speaker 2: downstream from the truth claim, right, And so I understand.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, it's so you could have all kinds

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Speaker 2: of arbitrary truth claims. You could say, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have a truth claim which is that Jesus's sandals,

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Speaker 2: you know, were one inch thick, And it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: who cares. That doesn't mean anything, It has no reason.

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Speaker 2: But if I say I have a truth claim, which

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Speaker 2: is Jesus died and resurrected from the dead, that means

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Speaker 2: it's because it offers a world that is different from

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Speaker 2: if that wasn't the case. And that world happens in

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Speaker 2: like I said, in participation. So you go to church.

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Speaker 2: The church is at the middle of the town. It's

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Speaker 2: the Hides building. Everybody can see the staple of the

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Speaker 2: church with the cross above it. And then they all

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Speaker 2: gather there together to manifest their unity. They celebrate the

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Speaker 2: things that brings them together. Birth, death, marriages. All of

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Speaker 2: these things happen in light of that of what the

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Speaker 2: truth claim offers. And so a simple example is that

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Speaker 2: let's say in many many In most societies before Christianity,

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Speaker 2: there was no need to say I do. There was

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Speaker 2: absolutely no need to It's like you're getting married, it

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Speaker 2: was decided for you. You bring the people there, and

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Speaker 2: the woman had absolutely no say in what we're like

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Speaker 2: in the marriage. Is like a man takes a wife

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Speaker 2: and some guy just they just decide that that's her,

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Speaker 2: and they come together and they get married, and there

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Speaker 2: was no need to ask for the willing acceptance of

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Speaker 2: that responsibility of the people. Now Christianity comes offers the

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Speaker 2: Cross as an example, and now in that frame of

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Speaker 2: willing self sacrifice, the husband and the wife now in

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Speaker 2: a Christian marriage have to say that they are willing

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Speaker 2: to take this other person at there as their husband

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Speaker 2: or as their as their bride. So it's a little example.

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Speaker 2: But what I mean is that the truth claim is

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Speaker 2: not is it offers a world in which to live.

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Speaker 2: And that's the most important because like I said, who

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Speaker 2: cares about truth claim? Like there are all millions of

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Speaker 2: truth things I could have that that they don't offer.

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Speaker 2: They don't offer me anything.

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Speaker 3: So so I wrote down what you said. So it's

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Speaker 3: the truth clam is important because of what it offers. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so you're talking about the consequences of the truth claim.

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Speaker 2: The reason why that truth claim is important not whether

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Speaker 2: it's true or not. That's another question. But the reason

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Speaker 2: why a certain truth claim is important is because of

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Speaker 2: what it offers, right I, Like I said, there are

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Speaker 2: millions of truth things I can make, but there's one

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Speaker 2: truth claim that that will I don't know like that

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Speaker 2: will offer me something. Right, the truth claim about how

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Speaker 2: to make you know how to to make a certain

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Speaker 2: type of medicine is more important than the truth clay

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Speaker 2: that there's a like a half an inch piece of

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Speaker 2: rubber that fell on the ground next to me. That's

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Speaker 2: also a truth claim, but it doesn't offer me anything,

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Speaker 2: And so I don't have to posit it in an

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Speaker 2: important place. I don't have to lift it up as

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Speaker 2: above others in that way.

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Speaker 3: So so I'm trying not to import any new words

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Speaker 3: into the conversation. So you're saying that one should, and

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Speaker 3: I want to relate this back to the idea of

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Speaker 3: binding to make sure I understand you're saying that there

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Speaker 3: are certain truth claims which yield greater binding.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me start there is that, right, Well, that's necessary,

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Speaker 2: like in terms of care First of all, in terms

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Speaker 2: of care, there's a person in terms of attention, certain

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Speaker 2: truth thames necessarily bring about more binding because there are

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Speaker 2: things you care about more than others. There's a hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of care in a person, in a community or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and so the truth thames of a community are binding

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Speaker 2: in care. Right, So you know that's why we claim

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Speaker 2: that's why we elevate the founding of a nation because

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Speaker 2: that founding of that nation is the reason why we

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Speaker 2: exist as a nation. We don't talk about what George

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Speaker 2: Washington ate for breakfast.

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Speaker 3: So it's so if something, if a truthuls So again,

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Speaker 3: I'm repeating this only back to you to make sure

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Speaker 3: I understand it's important because of what it offers and

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Speaker 3: the thing that it offers you, would you believe in

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Speaker 3: even if it didn't offer you anything? Should should you

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Speaker 3: believe it? If it offers you nothing.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't care about it. It's not that it

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't care about. If you said, if you told me, ay, Jonathan,

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Speaker 2: there's a piece of rubber on the ground in Syria

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Speaker 2: at the corner of these two streets, I would say, oh, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to forget that now I'm gonna forget that

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Speaker 2: now because you know, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Right, well, yes, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about a

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Speaker 3: lot of things. They're populating my head in the conversation,

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Speaker 3: thinking about this idea of Islam, of submission and submitting

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Speaker 3: because it's true, independent of its benefit for you, independent

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Speaker 3: of paradise afterward. There's just submission because that's the will

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Speaker 3: of God. And so I'm not I'm not contesting or

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Speaker 3: repudiating any concept of benefit as.

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Speaker 2: Like it's an interesting first of all, it's like, it's

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Speaker 2: actually an interesting question because in Islam we don't say

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Speaker 2: God is love, and Christianity we say God is love.

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Speaker 2: And you know, how can I say this like that

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Speaker 2: might even afford me the possibility of understanding the hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of goods that present themselves to me in a different

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Speaker 2: way that a Muslim will will be able to understand it,

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Speaker 2: and that will that will offer for a world to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, and that that world has a shape. And

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Speaker 2: we can compare worlds, right, we can. We can compare

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Speaker 2: the world of someone who believes for example, in Zeus,

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Speaker 2: let's say, and what that world looks like, and the

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Speaker 2: world of someone who believes in the monotheistic God or

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Speaker 2: the God, the God of the Bible, let's say, or etcetera, etcetera. Right,

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Speaker 2: you can also have a world where someone, for example,

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Speaker 2: believes only in reason, and you can see what that

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Speaker 2: world for because we have an example of it, like

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Speaker 2: we have the Enlightenment and we have with that Gabe

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Speaker 2: and we can see what that does, and and that's

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Speaker 2: that's part of this. So it's like, there are truth

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Speaker 2: claims that are different than other truth claims in that sense,

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Speaker 2: especially about the highest aspect, because it's a it's like

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Speaker 2: a it's an anchor.

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Speaker 3: Would you believe something if are you comfortable with all

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Speaker 3: of your Christian beliefs?

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Speaker 2: Am I comfort with all of my Christian beliefs? That's

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Speaker 2: an interesting one. I would say, like most people, there's

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Speaker 2: a hierarchy of comfort with a hierarchy of Christian beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's a good way to understand it. It's like

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Speaker 2: because the purpose, like I said, what's the reasons why

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Speaker 2: I'm saying this, is that the way that we live

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Speaker 2: in the world is about trust and about where to

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Speaker 2: go mostly and less about truth claims. Right, I believe

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Speaker 2: there's nothing I think truthlams are important, like I think

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Speaker 2: that they that they're part of this. But so there

359
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Speaker 2: are things about Christianity which I see as being absolutely

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Speaker 2: necessary and absolutely world giving, you know, and and so

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Speaker 2: I do believe them. But as you go down the

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Speaker 2: list of what all kinds of Christians believe, there's certain

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Speaker 2: things which seem either irrelevant to me or kind of shady.

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Speaker 2: And then I'm like, eh, you know, either I think

365
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Speaker 2: it's not interesting or or I don't believe it, or

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, just whatever, and then maybe one day

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Speaker 2: I'll have more work confidence on this or that. But

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter that much, because like I said, I

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Speaker 2: don't think most of our lives are about making sure

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Speaker 2: our truth claims are accurate. Most of our life is

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Speaker 2: about knowing where to go and what to do and

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Speaker 2: how to be. That's the thing that's mostly important, and

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Speaker 2: I want to be careful. I'm not saying the truth

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Speaker 2: clams aren't important, that making sure things are accurate isn't important,

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Speaker 2: but it's downstream from the other. Because the one, the

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Speaker 2: one of how to be, where to go to, where

377
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Speaker 2: to look, how to exist. It makes you care about

378
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,839
Speaker 2: certain truth claims and not care about others. And so

379
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Speaker 2: the truth claims are downstream from the direction.

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Speaker 3: You could say, but would you follow a path if

381
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Speaker 3: you if it had the binding element to it and

382
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Speaker 3: you thought it made your life better but it wasn't true.

383
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Speaker 2: Well, it depends if I could know that it wasn't

384
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Speaker 2: factually true. Yeah right, that's a little that's more complicated

385
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Speaker 2: because even the factually true to me is complicated. It's

386
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Speaker 2: a little complicated because there are different levels of factuality,

387
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Speaker 2: and so the question is always what level of factuality

388
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Speaker 2: is necessary for you to believe something is true? And

389
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Speaker 2: there are certain What I mean is that there are

390
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Speaker 2: forensic descriptions to a police officer, right, and so it's

391
00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: like here's a fact sheet of all the things that

392
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Speaker 2: happen at a crime scene and it's like all super

393
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Speaker 2: detail and it's whatever, right, And then there's the Then

394
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Speaker 2: there's the I think my wife loves me. That I

395
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Speaker 2: think my wife's love me is a truth claim, but

396
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Speaker 2: I don't have the forensic I can't access the forensic.

397
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Speaker 3: Better my wife loves me, Because you would be an

398
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Speaker 3: erring if you said, I think my wife loves me.

399
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Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, well no, I trust I trust my life.

400
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:10,599
Speaker 3: My wife loves me as opposed to I think my

401
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 3: wife loves me.

402
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 2: That made something like I trust my wife loves me.

403
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:14,839
Speaker 2: How about that?

404
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,759
Speaker 3: Well, no, because your feeling of trust, you'd be you'd

405
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,039
Speaker 3: you'd be infallible with that.

406
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,279
Speaker 2: What trust would would be that there's a sufficient amount

407
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Speaker 2: of of of stickiness between that's a my trust and

408
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,839
Speaker 2: the facts.

409
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can just climinate the my trust or

410
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: I think my wife loves me, my.

411
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Speaker 2: Wife loves me. Yeah, but I could be proved, I

412
00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:42,559
Speaker 2: could be proven. There could be a moment where things

413
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: happen and then I don't. That is definitely possible. So

414
00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:48,839
Speaker 2: I think that that's that's the case for.

415
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Speaker 3: So can I ask you a personal question? Yeah, are

416
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Speaker 3: you monogamous?

417
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Speaker 2: Yes?

418
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Speaker 3: Okay, So if you find out that your wife was

419
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 3: cheating on you with multiple men and women and going

420
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 3: to these crazy orgies, would you want to know that

421
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Speaker 3: that's true?

422
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: If it, yes, I would definitely, And I would also

423
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Speaker 2: it would also cast a dispersion on on the idea

424
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Speaker 2: that she loves me, and it would be good reason

425
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Speaker 2: to divorce her.

426
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Speaker 3: Okay, So you you want to know things that are true,

427
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,039
Speaker 3: even if the consequence of those things are negative to

428
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Speaker 3: your own life.

429
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Speaker 2: Well of course, I mean I think that that I

430
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,319
Speaker 2: think that's right. But it's always about the level, right,

431
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,759
Speaker 2: It's always about the level of true. So someone could

432
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: come and like exactly like, someone could come and tell

433
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: me some rumor. Right, it's like, oh you know, oh

434
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: someone told me that they saw your wife talking to

435
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,759
Speaker 2: this guy, you know, and that guy's really a player.

436
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,319
Speaker 2: So you should be really worried, Jonathan about your wife.

437
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 3: Right, what people who are so belign like you. But

438
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 3: what I mean, your imagination was just so different from

439
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,839
Speaker 3: what my imagination would have called you.

440
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,759
Speaker 2: Whatever. What I mean is that that I could, I could,

441
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: there could be a rumor, there could be things that

442
00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: if I was, if I was if I didn't trust

443
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: her in me to doubt that she is faithful to me,

444
00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:15,599
Speaker 2: that she loved me. But I'm careful to make sure

445
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: that the barrier is sufficient right in order to break

446
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 2: that because because you can always go into like micro

447
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,279
Speaker 2: details and find reasons to to to disprove. So, especially

448
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:31,559
Speaker 2: if it's trust, like man, trust is something that needs

449
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:34,759
Speaker 2: a kind of a kind of directionality to it.

450
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 3: And the reason for your the reason that you and

451
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:43,279
Speaker 3: I realized, I have to be incredibly careful and precise

452
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:46,559
Speaker 3: with each word. So if this is not not just

453
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,039
Speaker 3: accurate but precise, let me know. The reason that you

454
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: believe the main propositions of your religion is because you

455
00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: think that they're true.

456
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,599
Speaker 2: It's it's first of all, because I believe what they

457
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: are for, and then secondly that I believe and I

458
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: trust that, and secondly that I believe they're true. And

459
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: it's the same with my wife, by the way, which

460
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: is the reason why I think my wife loves me

461
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: is not because it's because it's true, because it's important,

462
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:19,759
Speaker 2: and then secondly it's true because if it wasn't important,

463
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: I wouldn't care about it. You wouldn't have to ask me.

464
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,599
Speaker 2: You would not even have to ask me that whether

465
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: or not. And so it's the same with faith, like if.

466
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 3: It wasn't true, it would be irrelevant. Would it afforded

467
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,839
Speaker 3: you or would it I don't know, I'm asking.

468
00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 2: No, it would obviously if it becomes if it becomes untrue,

469
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: like I'm true in the sense of that there's a

470
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: disjunk between the trust and the factuality of things, that

471
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,039
Speaker 2: the factory of things are disconnected from what I trust,

472
00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:50,519
Speaker 2: then then obviously then that would break like it would break.

473
00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: It was like it's like a second battune.

474
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,079
Speaker 3: You'd know it that I would that I.

475
00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: Would find that out. Let's say, yeah, that I find

476
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,839
Speaker 2: out that my wife is cheating on me. Let's say yeah,

477
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: then that would break the link.

478
00:27:01,599 --> 00:27:04,519
Speaker 3: So it seemed to me, you know, and I think

479
00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:09,319
Speaker 3: I'm misunderstanding, misunderstanding you because I just don't I don't

480
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 3: see how this could be true. I replaced. I don't think.

481
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: I don't see how this could be the case. It

482
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:19,079
Speaker 3: wouldn't it have to be like you would have to

483
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,519
Speaker 3: believe that they're true, and then other things would come

484
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:27,079
Speaker 3: downstream of that the benefits, because of what it all.

485
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: If the benefits come first, they come before the true

486
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: because there are millions of things that are true, Peter,

487
00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:37,319
Speaker 2: that I don't care about. There's like an indefinite amount

488
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: of things that are true that I don't care because

489
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,079
Speaker 2: they don't offer me a world. But there are certain

490
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: things that do offer me up possibility, and and those

491
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: are the ones I care about. So the value comes first, right,

492
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: and then the truth of it come second. Because if

493
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,079
Speaker 2: because think about it, like if I find out that

494
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: my wife it's cheating on me, and now I'm now,

495
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: I'm now, I now I hate life. Now, I'm I'm mad,

496
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm sad, everything falls apart because the value that it

497
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: was that offered me was was the reason why I

498
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: cared for it to be true in the first lay.

499
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: I still want it to be true, right, because we got.

500
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 4: To introduce you to the idea of composion at some point.

501
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: But that's a conversation for another day. So okay, So

502
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,839
Speaker 4: I'm still trying to make my I'm still trying to

503
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 4: make my wrap my head around this. So are you saying.

504
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: That the benefits of what you get lead you to

505
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 3: believe it's true?

506
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying that, Oh Okay. What I'm saying

507
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: is that the benefit of what it offers makes you

508
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,079
Speaker 2: see the value of it.

509
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: Okay that I can see, yeah, totally.

510
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: And then it makes you see why you should care.

511
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: Okay that I got that.

512
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: That's participate in that. Okay, I got that, right, And

513
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: then okay, let me give you, let me give you.

514
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,039
Speaker 3: Keep going with the string because I'm you know, and.

515
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: So and so and so. Then there are certain elements

516
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,839
Speaker 2: of that that have to do with what you would

517
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:14,759
Speaker 2: call factuality at certain at different levels and then those

518
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: have to connect, like there has to be a certain

519
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: amount of connection with factuality, of course.

520
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: And they can they the connection there is this a

521
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: kind of I don't mean it pejoratively, but a god

522
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: of the gaps is like, is this that that gap

523
00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: keeps getting smaller and smaller, so that at some level

524
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: the factual accordance means that the activity is tethered to

525
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,599
Speaker 3: reality and that it's true.

526
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:49,799
Speaker 2: It's true. Okay, so let's let's let's let's let's it's

527
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: there's this and I say this like there's a scale

528
00:29:53,319 --> 00:29:56,599
Speaker 2: of there's like a scale that you need in order

529
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: to know that you want to engage, that you want

530
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: to participate in. That's what I that's what I'm seeing.

531
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,799
Speaker 2: It's what's about to understand that it's about participation. So

532
00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:09,039
Speaker 2: if I write so, I trust that the sidewalk near

533
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: my house is going to hold me up, right, I

534
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: trust that, and I actually I don't think about it.

535
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,039
Speaker 2: I actually never think about it. I just walk on

536
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: the sidewalk, right, But it is possible that something could

537
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: happen sure that would force me to question that. And

538
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: the thing is that there's there's actually a scale of

539
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: that and that, and some people will be triggered really

540
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: fast about about the trust of the sidewalk, and some

541
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: people will will be triggered too late, and then that

542
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: it'll collapse and they'll fall into the hole. And and

543
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,519
Speaker 2: so the person that is triggered really fast, they'll be

544
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: they'll be they'll be afraid, they'll be super cautious, they'll

545
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: be really cared, and maybe most of the time they're

546
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,599
Speaker 2: they're avoiding something which is not a problem at all.

547
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,079
Speaker 2: And the person that right, So there's a there's a scale.

548
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:54,359
Speaker 2: So it's this is the same thing with the religious thing,

549
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: like in the sense that you know, if you if

550
00:30:58,759 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: you're an American, right, and you think it's good to

551
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: me an American because you trust the foundation of America,

552
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,519
Speaker 2: then people what they're going to do and they do.

553
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: Now is it going to start to say, well, what

554
00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:11,519
Speaker 2: about this, what about Thomas jefferson sins, what about Thomas

555
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: Jefferson's slavery, what about this, this this? And some people

556
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:17,519
Speaker 2: will start will say, well, if Thomas Jefferson not slave,

557
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:22,359
Speaker 2: therefore America invalidate right. And other people will say, well, no,

558
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: I need like you know, I would need I would

559
00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: need to know that like someone I don't know, like

560
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: that the the very principles of the of the the

561
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:36,119
Speaker 2: whole thing are completely erroneous in order for me to

562
00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: abandon my allegiance to America. But all of that is like,

563
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: all of that is like and so it's the same

564
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: with religions. So someone will say, you know, do you

565
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,839
Speaker 2: believe in the truth of resurrection? And the truth is

566
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,359
Speaker 2: I would say yes, And then someone would say, but

567
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: what if I could show you that resurrection is impossible?

568
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: And it's like, it's like, okay, you can you do that?

569
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: Like can you show me that resurrection is impossible? And

570
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: what does that even mean? Like I'm not sure what

571
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: that what what are you talking about?

572
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,799
Speaker 3: I think that's really interesting, So let's follow with that.

573
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,079
Speaker 3: That's a really good point, and I hear you. So

574
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: let's let's follow that up. So instead of someone's saying

575
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: to you, I can show you that resurrection is false,

576
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: let's say that I don't know, some archaeologists went on

577
00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: some digs somewhere and they found this ancient library, and

578
00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:33,279
Speaker 3: in this ancient library were nearly perfectly preserved scrolls that

579
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:37,599
Speaker 3: were like, haha, we perpetrated a great hoax. We you know,

580
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:44,319
Speaker 3: the you know whatever, that the Jesus, you know what

581
00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:46,119
Speaker 3: I mean, would you still believe then?

582
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:49,319
Speaker 2: Okay? So what if what if someone in a thousand

583
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,799
Speaker 2: in five hundred years went back into our old internet

584
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,799
Speaker 2: archive and was able to get into four Chance and

585
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,559
Speaker 2: discovered that there are like insider CIA people that are

586
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:03,599
Speaker 2: saying that we're run by lizard people, okay, and that

587
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: they have a whole account of it, like five hundred

588
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: page books about how you run by lizard people.

589
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: All Right, So I see, I understand you, and I

590
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,519
Speaker 3: hear you, and I think that that's you. And if

591
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: I'm out of you know, if this is uh, if

592
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: this is too harsh, you know, I think you're looking

593
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:27,519
Speaker 3: for a reason to maintain the belief.

594
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: You think, well, yeah, because of what it affords me.

595
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: Of course I'm looking not looking for a reason to

596
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:39,559
Speaker 2: maintain my belief. I'm suspicious of people who try to

597
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:42,559
Speaker 2: take it away from me, first of all, suspicious about

598
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:45,559
Speaker 2: their intention just like just like the guy who comes

599
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:47,319
Speaker 2: to me and says, you know, I saw your wife

600
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: talking to this guy. It's like, I'm suspicious about your intentions,

601
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,359
Speaker 2: Like what is it you're hoping to accomplish by casting

602
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: this doubt on me, Ah, that those these are That's

603
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,079
Speaker 2: the thing. So it's not that I'm looking for reason

604
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,759
Speaker 2: to maintain belief, because when I'm walking on the sidewalk,

605
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: I'm not looking for reason to maintain belief. But if someone,

606
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,559
Speaker 2: you like, if someone's trying to cast doubt on if

607
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: a crazy guy comes up to me and says, the

608
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: sidewalk is made of jello, the sidewalk is made of jello,

609
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:16,039
Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna be like, well, sorry, I get sidewalk,

610
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: not you.

611
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's because you have you have no reason to.

612
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 3: But if you were walking down down the street on

613
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,559
Speaker 3: the sidewalk and a couple of people just vanished, like

614
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: they sunk into the sidewalk it turned into some like

615
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: sci fi, then I.

616
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: Would definitely not.

617
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,039
Speaker 3: That would be a very reasonable rational thing to do.

618
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 3: So but in these instances, let me.

619
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,119
Speaker 2: Give you an example of today. Like example today, right,

620
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,119
Speaker 2: It's like, there are people that fake miracles all the time,

621
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: the people that lie about miracles. There are people that

622
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 2: lie about healing. There are people that lie about all

623
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: kinds of stuff. And every time I hear a story

624
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: of someone getting healed or someone some miracle or whatever, like,

625
00:34:56,159 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, I don't know. I don't necessar

626
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,679
Speaker 2: necessarily have an opinion on it. Now, it doesn't know.

627
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I don't believe that miracles are

628
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,679
Speaker 2: possible or that healing.

629
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 3: That's fascinating to me. So why should on a scale

630
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: from one to ten? So if one is no way, jose,

631
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:16,559
Speaker 3: five is maybe, ten is absolutely Why should your default

632
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:20,599
Speaker 3: be five? Your default should be like one point one?

633
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: What do you mean defaults? Were you one for one

634
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: that I should immediately believe people's claims?

635
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:30,079
Speaker 3: No, So, so if we have a scale with one

636
00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:35,079
Speaker 3: being this is this is bs, five being maybe it's possible,

637
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:40,039
Speaker 3: ten being this is absolutely true if someone tells you

638
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 3: about some miracle they've seen, I don't understand why you're

639
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 3: defaulting to five instead of defaulting to two. You should

640
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 3: why your default? Maybe my default would be my default

641
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,679
Speaker 3: would be one.

642
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 5: Point zero, like if the skills zero to ten be

643
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 5: like zero point one, one one one, But I would

644
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 5: still be doxastically open. You know, I'd be open open

645
00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:06,039
Speaker 5: to that given sufficient evidence. But why would your default

646
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:07,599
Speaker 5: be five? Why would you say?

647
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:08,039
Speaker 3: Maybe?

648
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: Well, because I've experienced miracles, because I've seen people I've

649
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: seen it, Like I've seen people have someone pray for

650
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,199
Speaker 2: them and then then they go to the doctor and

651
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: the cancer is gone. Like you know, if you.

652
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,639
Speaker 3: Don't even know that's causal. People spontaneously remit from things

653
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 3: all the time.

654
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,519
Speaker 2: That's it's not How how do you, okay, how do

655
00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: you establish causality between meeting and and and events evidence

656
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: there's no way to establish causality between meeting and events.

657
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 3: Well, there actually is. The Harvard Prayer Study, for example,

658
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,679
Speaker 3: was the largest and the largest end I camera. It's

659
00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: like someone will look it up at like one thousand,

660
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,559
Speaker 3: six hundred thousand, eight hundreds I think people in which

661
00:36:53,559 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: they had double blond placebo control groups about people praying

662
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 3: for other people, and then they after I think cardiac events,

663
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,599
Speaker 3: and then they looked at that and there was no

664
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: statistically significant difference in fact that people who got prayed

665
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: for actually did it slight slightly slightly worse off. But

666
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 3: like you can, you can just invoke the tools of

667
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 3: science to figure that out. If if praying for someone

668
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: caused cancer to go away, I mean, we've studied it

669
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,639
Speaker 3: and it's just not true.

670
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:27,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well I don't then I say this, I I

671
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,519
Speaker 2: really struggle to see how you could study that. And

672
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: the reason is because prayer is there is not a

673
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: prayer is not a mechanical process that you just put

674
00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: someone you did, put two people in a box and

675
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: say pray for him, put a wall between you, like

676
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,119
Speaker 2: you're praying secret, and then you try to know you're right.

677
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,039
Speaker 2: It's as if you said you know anyways, I just find.

678
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,679
Speaker 3: It you're absolutely correct. That's why it's essential that you

679
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: you have a rigorous methodology. You get people who actually believe.

680
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 3: I think they, if memory serves me correctly, they recruited

681
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,039
Speaker 3: from Catholic churches among other churches. But you get people

682
00:38:13,079 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: who genuinely believe, who are church goers. You get a

683
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 3: large end in other words, a large number of people

684
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: in the sample you find.

685
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: You don't believe at all that prayer can help someone recover.

686
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: What do you believe in the police?

687
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 3: You mean intercessory prayer?

688
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 2: Like do you believe in the placebo effect?

689
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 3: But wait, you mean intercessory prayer?

690
00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, like someone praying for someone else they could help

691
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 2: them heal.

692
00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:38,039
Speaker 3: No, I think it's total nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. It's

693
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 3: complete and utter nonsense.

694
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: Do you I mean, do you think do you think that?

695
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: Do you think? Do you think effect is real?

696
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 3: You wouldn't get the placebo effect with intercessory prayer. You

697
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: get the placebo effect with people praying for themselves.

698
00:38:56,519 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 2: Okay, you may get.

699
00:38:57,679 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: The placebo effect if.

700
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: Trust your doctor does the placebo effect.

701
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 3: If you don't hold on me, finish the thoughts, you

702
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:09,639
Speaker 3: may get the placebo effect if people in your immediate

703
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: circle were around you praying for you, and you had that.

704
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: But there is no placebo effect. If you find people

705
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,599
Speaker 3: who are genuinely genuine believes, you show a pictures, you're

706
00:39:18,599 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: introduced them to this person set up, and they go

707
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,199
Speaker 3: off and they pray, then there's no contagion there.

708
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,599
Speaker 2: Okay, So what what do you think the placebo effect is?

709
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 3: That's a that that that's another question from We have

710
00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: data on this and it doesn't work.

711
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,199
Speaker 2: So effect doesn't work.

712
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,039
Speaker 3: No, No, no intercessory prayer. So then my question to

713
00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:43,599
Speaker 3: you becomes my same question as I asked you before,

714
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: which is you know about going back? You know we

715
00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: find some scrolls. So I've given you another example. So

716
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: you said you've seen miracle in your life and someone

717
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 3: prayed for and I asked you how it's causal.

718
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,119
Speaker 5: So I've given you another reason to at least pause

719
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,039
Speaker 5: or have doubt, and that has given you no doubt.

720
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: And so my my comment to you would be, it

721
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 3: seems to me I like you. You're a nice guy,

722
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,039
Speaker 3: if you get along very well, and it seems to

723
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: me that you're looking for a reason to hold the

724
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 3: belief like those reasonable Like if you looked at that

725
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,159
Speaker 3: from any other proposition I gave you, like people would say, Okay, well,

726
00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: maybe that gives me a reason's doubt. Maybe I should

727
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 3: be more epistemically questioning.

728
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, I definitely can I say this, I

729
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:39,639
Speaker 2: definitely doubt. I definitely have doubts when I hear certain

730
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: stories about people healing e racacy, Like I definitely do

731
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:48,039
Speaker 2: have doubts about that. But I also see the manner

732
00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: in which meaning and a connection to meaning, yeah, does

733
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 2: have an effect on health, like and that I see,

734
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:58,679
Speaker 2: I see it all the time.

735
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's different. That's different from an objective claim of

736
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,159
Speaker 3: someone praying for someone else and then then they're spontaneously

737
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 3: remitting from some cancer or something. That's a different claim.

738
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,039
Speaker 2: It's not a completely different claim. And because it's related

739
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:15,679
Speaker 2: to the way in which things like speech, things like care,

740
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: things like attention are related to healing. Right, So they're

741
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:28,519
Speaker 2: not disconnected, like the human being finds healing in connection

742
00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:29,199
Speaker 2: to meaning.

743
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:29,559
Speaker 3: Right.

744
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:32,079
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a good way to think about it, and

745
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:33,039
Speaker 2: that it.

746
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: Is possitive talks about that.

747
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, so there's a way

748
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: in which meaning it's a prayer, the prayer is an

749
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: invocation of participation in higher meaning. That's in one aspect

750
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,679
Speaker 2: of what prayer is. It's calling upon something which is

751
00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: higher than us, right, and then asking it to act

752
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: with meaning down on the being. And that it's like

753
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 2: it's a reflect and it has I mean, in some

754
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,559
Speaker 2: way it's a reflection also of the care of the people. Right,

755
00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 2: So it's not it's not a cold thing. So that

756
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 2: if you pray for someone, usually it means that you

757
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: have some kind of love for them, like you care

758
00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: for them, and that you're going to get attention to them.

759
00:42:21,559 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 3: Would you believe that that prayer would heal people if

760
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 3: there was no God? That the meaning alone in calling

761
00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: upon it's the very act of calling upon something higher,

762
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,079
Speaker 3: even if that higher thing doesn't exist.

763
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question because in my the way that

764
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: I understand it is that it is because of meaning

765
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: that I believe in God. Is because I see that

766
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: meaning stacked vertically and moves up towards unity, that I

767
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 2: believe that that there are meanings that transcend me and therefore,

768
00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 2: and those meanings are active. They're not just data. They're

769
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: they're agent like. They they're agentic, they act down on us.

770
00:43:06,039 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 2: And so for me, the question about meaning and the

771
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: question about God is the same. It's the same question.

772
00:43:12,599 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 2: So it's a complicated it's a complicated question to answer.

773
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,559
Speaker 3: So if there were no God, if you could. I'm

774
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 3: watching an amazing show right now that I highly recommend

775
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,119
Speaker 3: called Dark Matter. Love It one of the best shows

776
00:43:24,119 --> 00:43:29,559
Speaker 3: I've seen in yours. It's a it plums there telling you.

777
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: I have no financial association with the show. I'm telling

778
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,679
Speaker 3: you this for a reason, but it's like a subgenre

779
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 3: of science fiction, parallel worlds. Let's say that you will

780
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 3: go to a parallel world and one of those worlds

781
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 3: had a god, h and the other world didn't have

782
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 3: a god, and the world without a god, people are praying,

783
00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: They're calling upon the higher meaning. It's intercessory prayer on

784
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 3: behalf of someone else. I don't cancer alcohols. What happened?

785
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,079
Speaker 2: I think this is why because you don't agree with

786
00:43:57,079 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: what a god is like there we would not exist

787
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: without without a god a world can that if you

788
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: believe in God, that's.

789
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 3: A totally different that's a totally different question. I'm happy

790
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 3: to explore that with you. I mean, we can do

791
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,199
Speaker 3: that right now? Well why not? And how would you

792
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:14,559
Speaker 3: know that?

793
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,639
Speaker 2: The way they know it at a lower level, let's say,

794
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 2: at the start, is to realize that that the the

795
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: whole is always more than the sum of its parts.

796
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:28,159
Speaker 2: And you see that happen. So you see that every

797
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: being has a third being. So it's like there's you

798
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: and I, and then there's there's a relationship, and that

799
00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 2: relationship has a has a kind. I mean, it's it's

800
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: in our in this case. It it's transient to some extent,

801
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: but it's also real. Right, and so this is true

802
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: about all groups, Like all groups have something that pops

803
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: up above it, which becomes an identity, which which which

804
00:44:50,039 --> 00:44:55,559
Speaker 2: which relates people together. And that identity is causal vertically right,

805
00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:59,599
Speaker 2: It binds, it's it's a it binds that group together.

806
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 3: It Okay, I'm with you so far. But I don't understand.

807
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 3: I'm not a god.

808
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: That's a god. So by the way, I don't that

809
00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:11,039
Speaker 2: that is a god or an angel, use whatever word

810
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:15,519
Speaker 2: you want. It is an active agent that buys multiplicity

811
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: together into unity.

812
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 3: And so you're not talking about You're not talking about

813
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,199
Speaker 3: a cosmological thing. You're not talking about Aristotle's prime mover.

814
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,519
Speaker 3: You're not talking about the Alpha and Omega at the

815
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:31,559
Speaker 3: beginning of the universe, like you're not talking about the atman,

816
00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 3: the breath, you know what I mean.

817
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,639
Speaker 2: But it all the hierarchy of God culminates into the

818
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,199
Speaker 2: absolute like it has to, okay, because you can see

819
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:44,599
Speaker 2: it happen at every level, and at some point you

820
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:47,159
Speaker 2: know whether or not the absolute that that you know.

821
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 2: I understand why some people struggle to see the absolute

822
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: as personal or agentic. I understand why that that's part

823
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: of some philosophies. But there's a sense in which you

824
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 2: can see it and a scale up. That's why all

825
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: the traditions have these kind of hierarchies of gods. Right,

826
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: It's like you have little gods and bigger gods than

827
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: these gods can hold other gods.

828
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 3: Just in Taiwan, I saw i saw I was fascin

829
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: like that. Yeah.

830
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: So I mean for the same reason that we have

831
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: like you see that there's a person, right, there's a

832
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: multiplicity in me, and I've held together, and then that

833
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:19,639
Speaker 2: I can hold together in a family, and then that

834
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:22,119
Speaker 2: family can hold together in a city, and then that

835
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:24,199
Speaker 2: city can hold together in the nation. And all those

836
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:29,079
Speaker 2: levels have a form of of binding, right and a

837
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: form of agency because they command us how to be together.

838
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: Right continues to scale and.

839
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,559
Speaker 3: I'm with you. I'm with you on the scaling, I'm

840
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,119
Speaker 3: with you in the binding. I'm with you. So let

841
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: me just ask so I can understand. So you if

842
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 3: a meteor came and smashed the kill literally everybody on earth? Uh,

843
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 3: would would there? Would there be a God?

844
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 2: That that's a that's a hilarious idea, Like it's one

845
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,199
Speaker 2: of those things where if you believe that the world

846
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 2: lays itself out in meaning, yeah, right, then to just say, well,

847
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,559
Speaker 2: if something wiped out the meaning major making agent of

848
00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 2: all of reality, yes, would God still exists? Because you

849
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,559
Speaker 2: don't believe the world functions with meaning. You think it's

850
00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:26,039
Speaker 2: just arbitrary causes things bumping into each other. So a

851
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: meteorite that hits you and kills all the agentic agentic

852
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:32,639
Speaker 2: beings that we know. Yes, because you don't believe that

853
00:47:32,639 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 2: there's actually a story and that there's actually meaning, So

854
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,679
Speaker 2: to be consistent, it's a I can't answer that question

855
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: because I actually believe the world lays itself out in

856
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,159
Speaker 2: the hierarchies of of beings and in hierarchys of stories,

857
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 2: that this is no functions.

858
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 3: No, no, no, there's only to be consistent. There's only

859
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 3: one answer to that question for your belief system. To

860
00:47:54,519 --> 00:47:58,039
Speaker 3: my belief system, there's I think two, possibly three. But

861
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 3: to yours you'd have to say that's not possible.

862
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: That what's not possible for the media right to just

863
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: hit the earth randomly?

864
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, wouldn't you?

865
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: Well, is it possible? I mean, there is there. I mean,

866
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 2: there's obviously a sense in most traditions and in Christianity too,

867
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: that this world will end, that that's part of the story, right,

868
00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: and that but the ending of this world is not

869
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: the ending of the world, like in the sense that

870
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: there's a new world that emerges from the end, right.

871
00:48:36,199 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: But not that it's programmed into the tilos or subspeci

872
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,519
Speaker 3: atturnity taught to us at the you know, under the

873
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: watchful eye of a trinity. This this event's unfold But

874
00:48:46,639 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 3: it's just so ol man, big meteor dude came down

875
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 3: from freaking who knows what, Alpha Centauri whatever wherever it

876
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,559
Speaker 3: comes down and just like tells of a buddy, what

877
00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:01,519
Speaker 3: a bummer that would be.

878
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,039
Speaker 2: But yeah, but that's what that's what I mean. What

879
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 2: I mean is that.

880
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 3: I'm going never get my black belt jiu jitsu.

881
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so we could, I mean, we could obviously do

882
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,079
Speaker 2: it at a at a smaller scale that that that

883
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 2: makes sense, right, because tragic things do happen, you know,

884
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 2: that is definitely true. But I think you're right that

885
00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:30,199
Speaker 2: I would I would tend to think that, okay, because

886
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: I believe agency and intelligence are actually an aspect of being,

887
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:38,079
Speaker 2: Like they're actually the reality. And and I think that humans,

888
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 2: at least to our knowledge, right, like a specific role

889
00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:45,519
Speaker 2: in that in that cosmos. Like we humans seem to

890
00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:47,559
Speaker 2: be at least, like I said, as we know to

891
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:51,639
Speaker 2: be being that is both intelligent and incarnated. And so

892
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: we we we have that that kind of that place,

893
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,079
Speaker 2: and so we seem to have an important place in

894
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: the universe in that sense, because are the universe knowing itself,

895
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,639
Speaker 2: where the universe where we are basically the capacity for

896
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,559
Speaker 2: being to analyze itself, to know itself and and all

897
00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 2: of that. And so the idea that just a random

898
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 2: destruction of all humans, I think you're right that I

899
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,599
Speaker 2: that I don't think that that can happen.

900
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:20,039
Speaker 3: Okay, I think that it can.

901
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: The end of all things can happen, but I don't

902
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: think it. I think that it would be it would

903
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: play itself out in a story, because I think stories

904
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,159
Speaker 2: are part of of the of reality.

905
00:50:31,559 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm trying to I'm trying to. I'm asking

906
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,039
Speaker 3: these questions because I'm trying to figure out what you

907
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 3: believe and I'm trying to have it make sense to me.

908
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:45,679
Speaker 3: So and I'm trying to do so. And I'm really

909
00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:48,039
Speaker 3: sincere when I say this was a harmonica of charity.

910
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,519
Speaker 3: So what is your view on the origin of the universe?

911
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: What is my view on the cosmological Yeah, I mean,

912
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,119
Speaker 3: do you think you think God created the whole shebang?

913
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: I think I think that the origin of the universe

914
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: is in intelligence. And I'm sorry I would say yes,

915
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,639
Speaker 2: I believe that God created the world.

916
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: Oh okay, let me ask you a total curveball question.

917
00:51:17,039 --> 00:51:20,079
Speaker 3: I put this out on I was thinking about this.

918
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,519
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this for a long time.

919
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,199
Speaker 2: Let me just say the word that is that I

920
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 2: believe that the origin of the universe has to account

921
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 2: for the intelligence that it contained.

922
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,039
Speaker 3: The origin of the universe has to Oh so it

923
00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:38,159
Speaker 3: can't be a chance mutations at trance evolutionary mutations that

924
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 3: yielded this with some I don't know, I guess perturbations

925
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 3: in the system, but that yielded consciousness as it's currently

926
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 3: manifest in humans and animals.

927
00:51:49,079 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 2: It'd be you whatever chance mutation, selection is not chance.

928
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,679
Speaker 2: Selection is the pracituation of being. So if being has

929
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: a tendency to perpetuate itself, let's say then it has

930
00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: certain qualities which are which are already close to intelligence,

931
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: like to whatever we think intelligence is, you know, because

932
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: autopoesis is not a you know, it's like there's a

933
00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: difference between an autopoetic being and just a you know,

934
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: a rock falling to the ground like there. This is

935
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 2: this is a qualitative difference that has to be So

936
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 2: even if it's chance mutation, the selection process is in

937
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: no there is in no way chance is always to

938
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: the perpetuation of being. The selection is so god like,

939
00:52:38,039 --> 00:52:40,519
Speaker 2: so you can tell you that, I remember, I think

940
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: it was Jordan Veterson actually used the first one I

941
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,039
Speaker 2: heard him say that. He said, God is that which selects,

942
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 2: and so that's it. That's a pretty good idea. That's

943
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,079
Speaker 2: an interesting idea at least about the notion of of

944
00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 2: what of how to help people understand what we mean

945
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: by by God.

946
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:59,599
Speaker 3: Let's say, yeah, and in that sense you mean selecting.

947
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,519
Speaker 3: So I think it's it's funny. It's harkening me back

948
00:53:02,559 --> 00:53:05,199
Speaker 3: to being in time to buy my higher I haven't

949
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 3: read Hydeger in a long time, never really assured answer that. Actually,

950
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 3: my my translation test from Master's Grazios was in Oh no,

951
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 3: that's crazy.

952
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,039
Speaker 2: I think they didn't like you. I think they had

953
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:24,039
Speaker 2: some distinct courage.

954
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 3: Uh so that's probably more true than you know. Okay, So,

955
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,199
Speaker 3: so you're using being in that sense in it as

956
00:53:33,199 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 3: opposed to well, adaptive organisms. So you're using a kind

957
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 3: of philosophical or even theological sense of being as this

958
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: thing that's revealing itself in the world.

959
00:53:45,119 --> 00:53:49,519
Speaker 2: Even the adaptive organism think about it like, there's we take,

960
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 2: we take how did we take for granted, like that

961
00:53:54,559 --> 00:53:59,519
Speaker 2: being perpetuates. Well, let's let's say that, like why does

962
00:53:59,559 --> 00:54:01,039
Speaker 2: why does life fight entropy?

963
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,119
Speaker 3: Oh, well, that's a different question. Hold on, let's let's

964
00:54:04,199 --> 00:54:06,199
Speaker 3: let's go back to your other questions.

965
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,639
Speaker 2: Kind of different questions, the exact same question.

966
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:12,039
Speaker 3: Good, Okay, does hold on? And I have to shift

967
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:15,559
Speaker 3: my consciousness and say that question because this is a

968
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,159
Speaker 3: this is so many things. I'm trying to limit this. Sorry.

969
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 6: Sorry, So if you you know, if you could rewind

970
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 6: the clock and we evolved slightly differently, uh, and for example,

971
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 6: we were kind of appendage bearing.

972
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,079
Speaker 3: I don't know, if you play StarCraft for a long time,

973
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:44,599
Speaker 3: the Dessert, you know these like insect desoid creatures that

974
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 3: went on and they were in different bodies, and one

975
00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:54,079
Speaker 3: claimed to be the Christ and he resurrected. You wouldn't

976
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 3: need humans in their current incarnation and their car physical

977
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,679
Speaker 3: forms right like you. You would have the same intact theology,

978
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:10,159
Speaker 3: et cetera, with beings that look quite different. You're looking like,

979
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:11,519
Speaker 3: that's what I'm looking at you.

980
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,559
Speaker 2: I think it's hilarious because you you think that the

981
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:19,599
Speaker 2: fact that humans the way they are became conscious and

982
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: intelligent is just this arbitrary thing, like it could have

983
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,119
Speaker 2: been something else, but we don't have an example of

984
00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:30,679
Speaker 2: it being something else. You have no way to speculate

985
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,639
Speaker 2: the idea that that insects in the form of insects

986
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: with exoskeletons or whichever, could become self knowing beings in

987
00:55:40,519 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: the way that humans are right and so and and

988
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:44,159
Speaker 2: But I want to be curious. I want to be

989
00:55:44,199 --> 00:55:46,039
Speaker 2: I want to be cautious. Like, did not sound like

990
00:55:46,079 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 2: I'm just think right? You could say, so what it

991
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: feels like when you're asking me that question, I say, like,

992
00:55:53,559 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: I see a Tellos let's say in in in.

993
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:57,639
Speaker 3: It exactly what I'm where I'm going.

994
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 2: I see a Teleson animal. So I say, there are

995
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: animals that fly, and those animals do not have to

996
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: be related biologically in order to reach flight, but in

997
00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 2: order to reach flight, there are certain characteristics that they

998
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 2: have to have in order to fly. So tell me, well,

999
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: what if it was a slug but it became really

1000
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 2: advanced and then it flew, And I'd be like, well, no,

1001
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: because slugs don't have what it needs to fly. And

1002
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,280
Speaker 2: so if you propose some arbitrary being that has all

1003
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,639
Speaker 2: these characteristics and you say, well, what if that was

1004
00:56:29,679 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 2: the being that became the self conscious intelligent being. I'm like, well, whatever,

1005
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: it's like, that's a that's it to me. That's it's

1006
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,519
Speaker 2: as irrelevant as it's saying, what if slugs could fly? Well,

1007
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:44,599
Speaker 2: if they could fly, they wouldn't be slugs. There would

1008
00:56:44,639 --> 00:56:47,079
Speaker 2: be something else. I guess something that they would have

1009
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 2: wings that have some kind of extension that could push

1010
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: against air. Like it's not like anything can be anything.

1011
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:58,119
Speaker 3: Sure, So the the purpose of the thought experiment was

1012
00:56:59,599 --> 00:57:02,199
Speaker 3: it was none a roundabout, but it was a way

1013
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 3: to see if I could figure out without asking you directly.

1014
00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:09,280
Speaker 3: So I'll ask you directly tilos that you're thinking about

1015
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 3: the current you know, five fingers and toes and the

1016
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 3: way we look with the hair on top of our

1017
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 3: head and male and female, et cetera. About that would

1018
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 3: we debated recently?

1019
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,039
Speaker 2: So that's maybe because we got rid of that frame

1020
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:26,239
Speaker 2: that held everything together.

1021
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, that's a that's a totally another conversation.

1022
00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 3: That's such the substitution hypothesis. So so you think that

1023
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,599
Speaker 3: the way we are right now is there's a kind

1024
00:57:37,639 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 3: of necessity in that a biological and evolutionary necessity and

1025
00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:43,119
Speaker 3: the function.

1026
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,599
Speaker 2: I think. So I think I think that it's not

1027
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:49,079
Speaker 2: that there is invariability. Of course there's variability, but that

1028
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: variability is limited, right, just like all the time you

1029
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,639
Speaker 2: talk about variability, is that there's a variability of things

1030
00:57:55,639 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 2: that can accomplish something, but it's not indefinite. And so

1031
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: I think that the way that humans can I say

1032
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: this like this is also why you know, this is

1033
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,239
Speaker 2: also why the the ancient thinking they would see a

1034
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 2: human as microcosms, right, and that's why they say something

1035
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,559
Speaker 2: like that man is the image of God. Like even

1036
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,079
Speaker 2: the way that man is made, like his part, the

1037
00:58:17,079 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: fact that he's he stands straight, the fact that his

1038
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 2: head is above the fact like all of these these

1039
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: aspects of even the way that human is made is

1040
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:31,639
Speaker 2: related to is not arbitrary. It has in someone has

1041
00:58:31,679 --> 00:58:34,039
Speaker 2: to be within a certain amount of a variety to

1042
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:34,599
Speaker 2: be the case.

1043
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: It's not orbitrary evolutionarily, because if we were subject to

1044
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: different evolutionary pressures, we would look differently. And I guess

1045
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 3: I'm asking you if we look differently, considerably different differently,

1046
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 3: would the same theological precepts still be operative in the

1047
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 3: your paradigm.

1048
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: It's like, I really, I just it's funny how I

1049
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: hate these questions because well, I think it's also because

1050
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:02,159
Speaker 2: I'm really a realists. Like I'm a realist in the

1051
00:59:02,239 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: sense that I'm like, why are you speculating about world

1052
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,639
Speaker 2: that don't exist? In order to help out the world

1053
00:59:07,719 --> 00:59:08,079
Speaker 2: that you get.

1054
00:59:08,119 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I'll tell you exactly why I'm doing

1055
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,119
Speaker 3: doing that so I can see I can figure out

1056
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: the limits of the belief and how your beliefs cohere

1057
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,239
Speaker 3: together in some kind of a system. So the purposes

1058
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,719
Speaker 3: of the questions, they're not gotcha's, they're not trick questions

1059
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 3: or anything. They are ways for me to figure It's

1060
00:59:27,039 --> 00:59:34,119
Speaker 3: kind of like coherence testing for beliefs, and it gives

1061
00:59:34,199 --> 00:59:36,519
Speaker 3: me a better idea. It's the other thing is it's

1062
00:59:36,519 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 3: a way for me to listen to what you believe.

1063
00:59:39,639 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 3: And sometimes if you ask somebody a question, you know,

1064
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 3: it's it's a it's people won't give in and out

1065
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 3: saying you won't do this, but people won't give you

1066
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,719
Speaker 3: a direct answer to the question, and so what you'll

1067
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:57,719
Speaker 3: have to do is you'll have to tease that that out.

1068
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,599
Speaker 3: Like for example, if I said, uh so, the way

1069
01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:02,599
Speaker 3: that we've evolved now to look like we do with

1070
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:07,079
Speaker 3: five fingers five toes. Is that evolutionarily? Is that a necessity?

1071
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,199
Speaker 3: Or if conditions were different, you know, it's pre advent

1072
01:00:12,239 --> 01:00:14,239
Speaker 3: of No, I have to be before pre advent of

1073
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,119
Speaker 3: brand ten thousand years ago. But if conditions were a

1074
01:00:18,199 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: different you know, different son for sort, the.

1075
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,679
Speaker 2: Different son that's h Lyricus like this, I mean, I

1076
01:00:25,719 --> 01:00:28,159
Speaker 2: think this is probably again like why I really I

1077
01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 2: believe the meaning is part of the world. It's like

1078
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: there's a coherence to the way the world is, like

1079
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 2: the dishes of our son to the earth, that all

1080
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: of these things are the fine tune whatever reality that

1081
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: makes it possible for us to exist.

1082
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 3: You know.

1083
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:46,519
Speaker 2: So if you bothered a world with three sons and

1084
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:48,159
Speaker 2: you think, well, what if we evolved on a world

1085
01:00:48,159 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: with three sons, like well, I would we evolve on

1086
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,199
Speaker 2: a world with three sons? Like would we evolve in

1087
01:00:53,199 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 2: a world that's not the exact one that we're in?

1088
01:00:56,559 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: So the only the only reason that we can look

1089
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:05,159
Speaker 3: at these things and say, you know, wow, this is

1090
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,679
Speaker 3: extraordinary is because if those initial conditions weren't the same,

1091
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,719
Speaker 3: there'd be nobody there to say, wow, this is extraordinary

1092
01:01:12,039 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 3: of course, right, So, but that doesn't mean I was

1093
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,239
Speaker 3: at an Indian restaurant many years ago and the guy

1094
01:01:20,239 --> 01:01:23,079
Speaker 3: didn't speak English of that well, and he asked my friend,

1095
01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 3: my buddy Steve. He said, what is the meaning of meaning?

1096
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,159
Speaker 3: And I thought that was like such a great question.

1097
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 3: But in other words, you, I'm saying that because the

1098
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 3: sentiment is there. We're looking at the situation which we

1099
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,039
Speaker 3: find ourselves and we're saying, oh my god, this is miraculous,

1100
01:01:37,079 --> 01:01:39,119
Speaker 3: there's life, et cetera. Yeah, but you're only saying that

1101
01:01:39,159 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 3: because we're only saying that because it's an easy pitfall

1102
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,639
Speaker 3: to fall into, because if the conditions were different, there'd

1103
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 3: be no one there to say it.

1104
01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:50,039
Speaker 2: That's right. There would be no one there to say it, yeah,

1105
01:01:50,079 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 2: And so you would also be no one there to

1106
01:01:52,159 --> 01:01:53,119
Speaker 2: not say it or.

1107
01:01:53,119 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: To That's the fallacy of it, be knowing there for anything, right,

1108
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,159
Speaker 3: that's the fallacy of fine tuning. And so then we

1109
01:02:00,199 --> 01:02:03,119
Speaker 3: infer from that that it's been fine tuned the universe.

1110
01:02:03,159 --> 01:02:05,079
Speaker 3: That's Victor Stenger wrote a great book about that, the

1111
01:02:05,159 --> 01:02:06,199
Speaker 3: fallacy of fine tuning.

1112
01:02:06,559 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, we don't how can I say this, like, we

1113
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:15,519
Speaker 2: don't like we infer from that that it's fine tuned.

1114
01:02:16,079 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: How can I say this, like, yeah, we see that

1115
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:27,719
Speaker 2: meaning and purpose, right, and patterns exist. They don't exist

1116
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,159
Speaker 2: in the same way that things exist, but they exist

1117
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: in the in the manner in which they they bind

1118
01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 2: elements together. Right, So we notice, for example that bats fly,

1119
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,559
Speaker 2: and birds fly, and butterflies fly and all these things fly.

1120
01:02:42,639 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: And so now we have a category called flying, which

1121
01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 2: is a purpose. It is a tellos. You could say,

1122
01:02:50,679 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 2: you could say something like, well, there is no tellos,

1123
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:58,639
Speaker 2: but if we still recognize it, like the tellos is

1124
01:02:58,679 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 2: not in the things. The tells is in the way

1125
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: that we recognize it as sharing something in common towards

1126
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 2: the purpose.

1127
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,239
Speaker 3: And so that the tailos would be maybe Taylor's wouldn't

1128
01:03:09,239 --> 01:03:10,719
Speaker 3: be the right way to look at it, but it would.

1129
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:17,079
Speaker 3: Those were adaptations to enable reproductive success. But they have

1130
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:20,239
Speaker 3: a coherence to them, that's one hundred percent.

1131
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 2: They have a coherence that resembled itself across space.

1132
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,599
Speaker 3: Right, That's why we can You can say that speech

1133
01:03:28,679 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: utterance and I understand you.

1134
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,519
Speaker 2: So you could say that that's so that's an objective

1135
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: pattern that if certain constraints are placed on certain things,

1136
01:03:37,719 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: then they will yield certain results that that that that

1137
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,679
Speaker 2: bring a being into a certain tailos. But you but

1138
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 2: it's hard. So what I would say is that that

1139
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 2: tailos pre exists.

1140
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 3: Well, I was right up with you towards the end.

1141
01:03:55,719 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 3: I was almost going to agree, what do you mean?

1142
01:03:57,960 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 3: What do you mean pre exists?

1143
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:03,159
Speaker 2: What? It exists because it is independent from the multiple

1144
01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:07,639
Speaker 2: instantiations of it. It's it's it's independent. It's not dependent

1145
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:12,079
Speaker 2: on the instantiations, right, because they are from different species

1146
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 2: and therefore they attain something we recognize as a pattern

1147
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,039
Speaker 2: of being, and that pattern of being it's not dependent

1148
01:04:21,159 --> 01:04:23,599
Speaker 2: on on the on the on the multiple effects that

1149
01:04:23,639 --> 01:04:26,079
Speaker 2: happen down here. Is is it okay?

1150
01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 3: So I guess I'm unclear. So so why I don't

1151
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 3: understand where being keeps coming into this? What do you

1152
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:34,559
Speaker 3: mean by being?

1153
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,519
Speaker 2: What do I mean by being? In the case of

1154
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 2: what we're talking about, we're talking about something which is

1155
01:04:43,239 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 2: something which perpetuates itself, like especially in terms of biology,

1156
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,599
Speaker 2: like that's a really that I think that's a good

1157
01:04:50,639 --> 01:04:53,559
Speaker 2: way of thinking about it, right, Something that's that's that's

1158
01:04:53,559 --> 01:04:57,719
Speaker 2: autopoetic and that is agentic that has that acts on

1159
01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 2: other things.

1160
01:05:00,239 --> 01:05:06,159
Speaker 3: Right, So would most be a being?

1161
01:05:06,519 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean, to some extent, it's a lower being, right.

1162
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:11,599
Speaker 2: That's that's how it's traditionally understood, is that there is

1163
01:05:11,639 --> 01:05:15,159
Speaker 2: a hierarchy of beings in terms of how much how

1164
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:22,079
Speaker 2: uh let's say they are and how let's say, how conscious. Also,

1165
01:05:22,199 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 2: I mean that's not there's a related to being conscious

1166
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,199
Speaker 2: and it's not exactly the same, but there is a relation.

1167
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,159
Speaker 3: Okay, And so now relate that to me so I

1168
01:05:31,199 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 3: can understand. And then I have to go relate that

1169
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,559
Speaker 3: to me so I can understand the flying thing.

1170
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 2: Related to flying things. So you have a bunch of okay,

1171
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 2: so you have you have a bunch of stuff, right, Yeah.

1172
01:05:46,199 --> 01:05:48,199
Speaker 3: You're gonna be like ten people on the internet who

1173
01:05:48,239 --> 01:05:51,239
Speaker 3: thinks this is the greatest. Everyone else can like one

1174
01:05:51,239 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 3: of these guys talking about it. Okay.

1175
01:05:54,519 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 2: So all right, so you have you have a bunch

1176
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 2: of You have a bunch of stuff, right, and there's

1177
01:06:01,519 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: a way in which that stuff enters into patterns. Okay,

1178
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 2: does that? Does that make sense?

1179
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 3: Right? Then?

1180
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:08,119
Speaker 2: That makes sense?

1181
01:06:08,119 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 3: All right?

1182
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,159
Speaker 2: Okay, And so what you notice is that and those

1183
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: patterns they kind of cohere multiplicity into one. Does that

1184
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 2: make sense, right, So that.

1185
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,719
Speaker 3: Means because I'm thinking about in terms of flying, butterfly

1186
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 3: maths and.

1187
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 2: That what I'm pos positing is that that pattern is

1188
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,519
Speaker 2: an objective reality. It's not objective in the same way

1189
01:06:30,559 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 2: that it's objective like math is real. It's real like

1190
01:06:33,039 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 2: math is real. It's really like proportions are real. It's real,

1191
01:06:36,119 --> 01:06:41,639
Speaker 2: like relationship between you know, the ordered relationships are real. Okay,

1192
01:06:42,159 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 2: And that's a it's agentic in the sense that it

1193
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 2: binds things into it for reasons, for purposes, and so

1194
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 2: the beings they come to something that you recognize. You

1195
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: see a pattern which is called flying, and that pattern

1196
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 2: is independent from the constituents, because all these different constituents

1197
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,199
Speaker 2: reach the same thing that have nothing to do with

1198
01:07:07,239 --> 01:07:07,639
Speaker 2: each other.

1199
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 3: What do you mean independent of the constituents?

1200
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:16,039
Speaker 2: What I mean is that there's no biological continuation between well,

1201
01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:18,199
Speaker 2: I mean maybe very very far back, but like there's

1202
01:07:18,239 --> 01:07:22,239
Speaker 2: no biological continuation between a bird and a bat and

1203
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 2: a butterfly.

1204
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 3: They were adaptive, right, They were adaptive, and they adapted.

1205
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 2: To adapted in a manner that is a type of

1206
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 2: pattern that you can recognize as having coherence.

1207
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 3: Totally agree, right, But yeah.

1208
01:07:39,239 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 2: So that is can I say this like now, take that, right,

1209
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:48,639
Speaker 2: that type of thinking, and you apply it to groups

1210
01:07:48,679 --> 01:07:52,719
Speaker 2: of people, for example, and then you notice that there

1211
01:07:52,719 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: are argantic patterns that run through groups of people, right,

1212
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:59,559
Speaker 2: and that those have a type of coherence, and you

1213
01:07:59,559 --> 01:08:01,679
Speaker 2: can reckon I did across right, So you just know

1214
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:05,079
Speaker 2: what war is because there are people in in Papua

1215
01:08:05,119 --> 01:08:08,199
Speaker 2: New Guinea in war, and there are people in American war,

1216
01:08:08,239 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 2: and there are people in China in war, and they're

1217
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,559
Speaker 2: all manifesting a single pattern that is that is coherent

1218
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:17,399
Speaker 2: and is and is agentic because nobody is controlling it.

1219
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,159
Speaker 2: There's no one in the war that is to That's

1220
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: that's what a god is, Peter.

1221
01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 3: See okay, now you lost me.

1222
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:39,600
Speaker 2: It okay, So okay, so you have you have a

1223
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:42,039
Speaker 2: form of have a form of hey, let me use

1224
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 2: it now more religious language. You have of transcendent agency, right,

1225
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:53,239
Speaker 2: that is coherent and that that binds groups of people

1226
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 2: into behaviors that none of the people control, but that

1227
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 2: is nonetheless plays itself out with the purpose that nobody

1228
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 2: can fully hold on to and that you can recognize

1229
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 2: across different different spheres. And so that's what someone would

1230
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,079
Speaker 2: call the god of war.

1231
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:18,319
Speaker 3: That is what you've really stretched the semantic range.

1232
01:09:18,199 --> 01:09:21,319
Speaker 2: And that's the crage at all. And now I'm talking

1233
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: about little gods, like these are little gods. These are

1234
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:25,520
Speaker 2: the angels, these are the demons, these are the these

1235
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:29,039
Speaker 2: are the small agentic beings that we see run through

1236
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 2: our society, you know, and we see recognized. So we

1237
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,520
Speaker 2: can see that someone is possessed by a certain type

1238
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,039
Speaker 2: of agency and they no longer have control of their being,

1239
01:09:39,239 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 2: and so we say they're possessed by a demon.

1240
01:09:42,079 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So I could for the purpose of conversation, I

1241
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 3: could completely adopt the language, the worldview, the structure. I

1242
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:03,279
Speaker 3: could do that. I can make that little little little shift. Okay,

1243
01:10:03,279 --> 01:10:03,600
Speaker 3: I got it.

1244
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 2: Okay, So now, so now what the difference between that world? Right,

1245
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:11,399
Speaker 2: have a world, let's say the world pagan where you

1246
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 2: have multiple agencies. Some of the represent aspects of reality, right,

1247
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 2: so like uh, like desire or war or you know, craftsmanship,

1248
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:25,039
Speaker 2: and you see them, and then some actually represent groups

1249
01:10:25,039 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 2: of people. Right, So, right, they have the local god

1250
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,359
Speaker 2: that is the principality that holds our that it's the

1251
01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 2: reason why we're a tribe and not just a bunch

1252
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,199
Speaker 2: of strangers, right, right, But the problem with these gods,

1253
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:41,199
Speaker 2: right is that obviously they don't all want the same thing,

1254
01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 2: and so they fight with each other. Not only the

1255
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,680
Speaker 2: gods fight with each other, but then the tribes and

1256
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:54,159
Speaker 2: the groups fight with each other. Okay, and so you see,

1257
01:10:54,199 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 2: but it actually has like in practice, it's not it's

1258
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:02,199
Speaker 2: not to say that the religion causes the war. Is

1259
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 2: that the agency that's running through them is in competition

1260
01:11:06,079 --> 01:11:09,159
Speaker 2: with the other. And so you can experience that inside yourself,

1261
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:10,359
Speaker 2: the same thing.

1262
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 3: Right.

1263
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,359
Speaker 2: So you have lust, and you have this other desire,

1264
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:18,640
Speaker 2: and you have hunger, you have things that you have pride,

1265
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,279
Speaker 2: you have all these things that are running and you

1266
01:11:21,279 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 2: can recognize them across people. So it's like, if I

1267
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 2: experience lust, I can see that when you experience lust,

1268
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 2: it seems to be similar. And so I can reckon God.

1269
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:31,319
Speaker 3: Hope not.

1270
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,359
Speaker 2: When we're together. You know, i'd.

1271
01:11:38,079 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 3: Have the end of this conversation. Very you know this

1272
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:46,199
Speaker 3: from your baby.

1273
01:11:46,359 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 2: The whole thing is important, Okay, So let me just

1274
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,079
Speaker 2: get through it. So you have this world where there

1275
01:11:55,159 --> 01:11:57,279
Speaker 2: and so then what what what happens is that at

1276
01:11:57,279 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 2: some point you realize that there is something which can

1277
01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:06,239
Speaker 2: bind all of those together, and so we can't. So

1278
01:12:06,359 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 2: may maybe we can to some extent disagree to what

1279
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 2: that is, you know, And so we'll say being. We'll

1280
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,079
Speaker 2: say I am right. So God in the Bible says

1281
01:12:15,239 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 2: I am that I am, So I am being itself

1282
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 2: all right? So being itself seems to align all of

1283
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 2: these different agencies together or the infinite, So we say

1284
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:29,039
Speaker 2: God is infinite. God is is all this all knowing,

1285
01:12:29,279 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 2: all all all like, it's just all and so we

1286
01:12:32,119 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 2: haven't we can notice that we have to bind all

1287
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:39,600
Speaker 2: of these multiplicities into a top unity.

1288
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 3: Why can't the thing that binds be an evolutionary impulse?

1289
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 2: But I don't even know what do you mean the

1290
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:47,319
Speaker 2: impulster from.

1291
01:12:47,239 --> 01:12:49,359
Speaker 3: Hire for example? Why why couldn't that be this?

1292
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:54,199
Speaker 2: So the let's say, the perpetuation of being, I like,

1293
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 2: the survive is a weird thing because it's you know that,

1294
01:12:58,479 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 2: can I say it?

1295
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:00,239
Speaker 3: Okay? Okay?

1296
01:13:00,279 --> 01:13:03,600
Speaker 2: Because because you know, because anyways to say, the perpetuation

1297
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:07,520
Speaker 2: of being seems to perpetuate, right, And so I think

1298
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:11,239
Speaker 2: that that's not a completely bad way of seeing it,

1299
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 2: you know. And I think that the question is what

1300
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 2: how can I say this, What makes that the most

1301
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:24,399
Speaker 2: possible at the most levels. I'm the longest stretch of time,

1302
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:27,560
Speaker 2: and I think that that if you look at the

1303
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 2: very immediate things, a lot of I think a lot

1304
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 2: of the of the kind of simplistic I think Darwinian

1305
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 2: things is usually they look at it at a very

1306
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 2: short scale. It's like just this one. The reason why

1307
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 2: that perpetuates in being is because I trying to scale it.

1308
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:42,359
Speaker 2: I know it's hard for no.

1309
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,560
Speaker 3: I just it doesn't seem to me to be a

1310
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:49,039
Speaker 3: very parsimonious explanation. What do you mean, well, I mean

1311
01:13:49,159 --> 01:13:53,159
Speaker 3: you can just it's kind of thinking adjunct to Okham Trazer.

1312
01:13:53,239 --> 01:13:58,079
Speaker 3: You can Why would you posit anything beyond it seems

1313
01:13:58,119 --> 01:14:01,319
Speaker 3: like it's orienting itself to it to another ontology or

1314
01:14:01,359 --> 01:14:05,640
Speaker 3: another metaphysics or something supernatural. When you have naturalistic explanations

1315
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 3: given the framework in the paradigm that you've.

1316
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 2: Just explicated, you don't have natural frameworks. And the reason

1317
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 2: why is because the evolutionary type biologists. And you see

1318
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,039
Speaker 2: that in Dawkins too, because when he gets into the

1319
01:14:19,039 --> 01:14:21,560
Speaker 2: world of memes, he's like, well, I give that a

1320
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk about memes. I know one

1321
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:25,239
Speaker 2: who came up with the term memes. But I don't

1322
01:14:25,279 --> 01:14:28,279
Speaker 2: understand how they function. I don't understand the reason why

1323
01:14:28,359 --> 01:14:30,640
Speaker 2: they're there. I don't understand how they bind reality together.

1324
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,119
Speaker 2: I don't understand how they perpetuate being. I don't understand

1325
01:14:33,159 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: any of that stuff. And so you have this problem

1326
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:40,560
Speaker 2: because humans don't. Also beings that are higher than us

1327
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:47,560
Speaker 2: also try to perpetuate themselves. Nations at nations are autopoetic.

1328
01:14:48,159 --> 01:14:52,279
Speaker 2: Nations are urgentic. Nations try to defend themselves from other beings.

1329
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 2: They act analogously to beings. At a lower level. They

1330
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 2: act like big cells.

1331
01:14:59,119 --> 01:15:01,159
Speaker 3: And so I I never think about how to grow.

1332
01:15:01,239 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 3: But isn't being only found in beings?

1333
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:04,840
Speaker 2: Is?

1334
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:05,039
Speaker 1: What?

1335
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:07,520
Speaker 3: Isn't being only found in beings?

1336
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,279
Speaker 2: Well, it's found incarnated, you could say, in beings. But

1337
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:16,680
Speaker 2: it nonetheless calls rights, It calls towards something right, it

1338
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:18,520
Speaker 2: calls towards unity. Is maybe the.

1339
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, So I guess at an individual atomic level,

1340
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 3: I can at a mistic level, would be better way

1341
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 3: to think. I can I get the and I can

1342
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:35,199
Speaker 3: use the beings. It gets more difficult for me, And

1343
01:15:35,239 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 3: maybe it's just the lack of my imagination.

1344
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:42,520
Speaker 2: Like, the reason why it's important is because it's because

1345
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:46,199
Speaker 2: you have no way of accounting for religion. Religion is

1346
01:15:46,239 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 2: a universal thing that is there in every culture from

1347
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:53,560
Speaker 2: the beginning of time until very recently, and you don't

1348
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 2: have a way to account for it except to say

1349
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,159
Speaker 2: that it's something bad that we should kind of get

1350
01:15:57,239 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 2: rid of.

1351
01:15:57,479 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 3: And it's kind of so I don't think, no, no, I

1352
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:00,079
Speaker 3: don't think we should get rid of that.

1353
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,239
Speaker 2: What I mean is that is that this is the problem, like,

1354
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 2: because there are modes of unifying beings together that transcend

1355
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,359
Speaker 2: the individual level, and if you can, if you don't

1356
01:16:10,359 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 2: have a system that accounts for it, then you just

1357
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 2: then you say religion is a mind virus or whatever

1358
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,199
Speaker 2: type of thing that a lot of the I'm not

1359
01:16:18,239 --> 01:16:21,239
Speaker 2: saying you said that, but let's say safe Yeah, so

1360
01:16:21,239 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 2: it's like that it's that it's a that it's a

1361
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,560
Speaker 2: mind virus. Think, okay, that mean that you can't see

1362
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:32,279
Speaker 2: the analogy between let's say, a religious service and a

1363
01:16:32,319 --> 01:16:37,199
Speaker 2: religious procession and the cohesion of cells together in a

1364
01:16:37,399 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 2: in an Oregon and how there's a type of there's

1365
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 2: a there's a there's a way in which they come together,

1366
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,079
Speaker 2: the multiplicity moves in the EU.

1367
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,720
Speaker 3: So just just to be clear with my sense, then

1368
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 3: I really do have to go out right, Just to

1369
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,560
Speaker 3: be clear with my sense. I was very explicit in

1370
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 3: my work, am I writing that religion is not the

1371
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 3: problem religion the fact that couldn't be more clear. Religion

1372
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 3: is community, religious people coming together, a religious religious a

1373
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 3: lot of positive aspects. My problem has always from day

1374
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,199
Speaker 3: one been the epistemological claims, the truth claims.

1375
01:17:09,359 --> 01:17:09,520
Speaker 5: The.

1376
01:17:11,399 --> 01:17:13,840
Speaker 3: And again I never think about this stuff anymore. It's

1377
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 3: just totally irrelevant given the civilizational threats we currently facing.

1378
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,039
Speaker 3: I think we both agree on those. All right, I

1379
01:17:22,199 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 3: have to go.

1380
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 2: All right, all right, it was good. We can set

1381
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 2: up another meeting, but this was.

1382
01:17:26,319 --> 01:17:29,640
Speaker 3: Another one man. All right, good good. I had a

1383
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 3: good time, Thanks Jonathan, quite good fun.

1384
01:17:33,239 --> 01:17:36,079
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to

1385
01:17:36,119 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 2: the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

1386
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:40,039
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1387
01:17:40,359 --> 01:17:41,279
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1388
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:44,520
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1389
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:46,960
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1390
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:48,199
Speaker 2: you for your support.