Speaker 1: Kabla Talk fifteen eighty. You know, I think you when
we think about negotiating a lot of times we think
about hostage situations or life and death situations.
Speaker 2: Like this, good danco.
Speaker 1: But thinking about and thinking about today's conversation we're about
to have, I realize, based on her work, that every
just about every minute of our life is a negotiation.
Welcoming into the space a globally recognized negotiation expert, she's
a twelve time award winning faculty member at the Wharton School,
highly sought after speaker, and the author of a book
called Bring Yourself, How to Harness the Power of Connection
to Negotiate Fearlessly. Mariy to her poor, thank you for
joining us this morning.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me very excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I I think when we think negotiator,
we either think, you know, you're you're doing Michael Jackson's
contract with a big record label, or you're talking to
a hostage you know, a hostage holder trying to get
someone out right. But you point out that negotiating is
not just it's not just life and death.
Speaker 3: It's not just life in death, that it's actually something
that we do every single day, whether you have a toddler,
you have pets, whether it's with a loved one, family members,
lots of women who are entrepreneurs, they do it with
their landlords and their clients and their vendors, driving in
traffic negotiations. Literally, it's like it's I always.
Speaker 2: Say, it's the soundtrack of our lives, and we do
it constantly.
Speaker 1: It's so funny too, because when you said toddler, the
memories came flitting back in. That's how you do all
day long, if you have a top or is negotiate.
I've always considered myself to be terrible at it, you know,
I don't drive a hard bargain. But it's it's interesting
when you say, because the stereotype I guess on the
TV shows, you know, you see a guy with some
kind of ear piece who is very you know, very
cop like and methodical and logical and highly trained and
unemotional sort of negotiating, and I think that you're trying
to tell us that that ain't it.
Speaker 3: It's not it, And it's unfortunate because I don't know
of any human that has better negotiation skills than a
mom actually who has a toddler. You are because you're
doing it all the time. You have all this practice.
But the way that society frames it, you know what
I mean. I mean literally, you're like in practice all day.
But the way society frames it for us, what we
see in the news or the movies, really is so
disempowering because we do see just this one model who
is brash and in your face, and there's like this
wind lose proposition that feels like a war, a Game
of Thrones kind of Outlook.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but what you're talking about is a
more a model based more in relationships, human connectivity, the
human spirit, or the human tendency of connection or not connection.
Is that fair?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Because if you think that there's only one model
of negotiations, then we all think, well, I can't be
good at that because I'm not like that guy on TV,
or I'm not like that hospice negotiator. Where's the reality is,
there's no one type of model negotiator.
Speaker 2: Everybody can be a great negotiator.
Speaker 3: You have all this experience every single day you're negotiating,
and if we really understood that, we would realize that
one it is based on human connections because it is
just that, and that anybody can be a great negotiator.
We have practice, we should feel empowered, and we have experience.
So I think just just believing that alone makes us
feel more confident that there's no rulebook, that there's no cookbook.
It's really just bringing your experiences and your values into
conversation and honoring those things.
Speaker 1: I mean, and just I want to take this moment
to point out that you have a you have a
crazy roster of clients. Fortune one hundred companies, major sports leagues,
big charitable institutions, government agencies. It goes on and on.
So it's not like you're sitting somewhere, you know, on
a small island about how we could have this new
way of negotiating. I mean, you're putting this into action
in you know, in the middle of the rat race,
so to speak. Right.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And because I have so many different perspectives and
you know, thousands of students and experiences, and I've seen
all kinds of different approaches to negotiations that are quite successful.
What I've realized is that it's not again a certain
model or a certain type of person or certain characteristics.
The best negotiators are those negotiators for authentic who really
sort of align with their values, know exactly who they are,
understand their own value, and walk into the negotiations really
driven by those things, empowered by their own experience and
their own set up beliefs.
Speaker 1: I mean, it does make sense because if it's value based,
I'm going to be less likely to back down. But
I mean doesn't mean I would necessarily be in, you know,
being more combative. It just means that I'm going to
stand all my values. I'm going to stand on my principles,
regardless of the outcome.
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: And you know what this is like. When we don't
abide by our values, when we don't.
Speaker 2: Honor our convictions, it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Matter what the outcome is. We feel like we've lost
every time because we've given into something that rather than
rather than honoring what's really really important to us, we've
compromised on that very thing, and that that can never
feel good, that can never feel like you've done well
and the outcome is what you have sought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting, even just having this conversation right
now and hearing you speak on it, I think of
times when just being you know, myself, has de escalated
a situation within the family or within my workplace that
I wasn't trying to get anything. I just wanted everyone to,
you know, be cool and be happy and stop tripping.
And so I wouldn't necessarily think of that as a negotiation.
Would you say that.
Speaker 3: It is one hundred percent? Because even what you were
doing is like mediating.
Speaker 2: Basically, which is also negotiations.
Speaker 3: But hearing one another. You know, listening and negotiations is
completely underrated, but really truly listening to people you know,
understanding them, and hearing with your I always say, it's
not just with your ears, but really with your heart,
your eyes, your mind, an your ears. It's the entirety
of the experience when we finally see people, when we
respect them, and that allows us to not only better
understand them and their wives, but also to be able
to communicate in a way that they can hear us.
Speaker 2: Too, because it's not just about you, right.
Speaker 3: This is the classic nor audience kind of you know framework,
which is you have to communicate things in a way
that they will hear you, and you bringing in your
own experience into those situations. One you're standing on what
you know to be your strength, which is your principles,
but also communicating in a way that people can actually
hear you because you know who they are. You're curious
about them, You're curious about how they're hearing you, how
they're receiving you. It is I hate to say, it's
just that simple. And it's not that it's simple, because
we all need better listening skills. We all need to
know how to be better present and more mindful. But
in the sense of there's no tactics, there's no script,
it's you being authentic.
Speaker 1: Maury's Harraport is our guest. The book is Bring Yourself
How to Negotiate Fearlessly. Lord knows we could all use
some lessons on that. We'll continue the conversation when we
come forward on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Yes, you're waking
up with me, and you're waking up with one of
the world's most recognized negotiation experts. She's a faculty member
at the Wharton School and award winning one at that
and the book Bring Yourself, How to Negotiate Fearlessly may
apply to more than you think, and not just business,
but also your own life, your career, your path forward.
I'm you know I was listening to what you're saying
about bringing your whole self and hearing with your heart
and not just it's not just about winning or having
some formula, but about really listening and showing up and
being present. It's it feels like nationally, internationally, where we
are in a ruthless era, right, That's how it feels
very cutthroat, very intense. There's a lot of consolidation, there's
a lot of sort of at all costs pursuit of
wealth and such. It doesn't feel like bringing your heart
and bringing your authentic self, would it might It feels
like maybe bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you're absolutely right about the environment we're
living in. Ruthless is actually the perfect word for it.
But it's because we are living in an environment where
people really don't see one another, they don't hear one another.
We're not connected, we're divided. I think oftentimes what makes
you unique is actually your strength. And so if you
are negotiating with somebody who comes in truly believing like
this is going to be war, and yet you are trying.
Speaker 2: To build a connection with them that you are.
Speaker 3: Actually hearing none, You're you have empathy for them you're listening.
These are such unique traits that you know, people do stop.
I mean, it sort of stops people in their tracks.
And I always talk about the fact that before there's
actually the deal making, the negotiations, there's a whole other stage.
Speaker 2: Which is, you know, what we call information.
Speaker 3: Sharing, which is that notion of forget what's going to
be transacted, forget about the deal that's coming.
Speaker 2: What about actually connecting with the person sitting in front of.
Speaker 3: You, and whether it's small talk about sports or you know,
maybe something that the person is wearing, or there's pictures
of their family in the background, but really inquiring and
being curious in a way that tells the person you
are actually more important than the deal that we're about
to embark on. And that alone creates such a feeling
of First of all, it's very very It sort of
sets the person's head spinning because they're like, what's happening, right, Wait.
Speaker 2: There's somebody actually interested in me more.
Speaker 3: Than what the deal is. But this humanity that you
bring in to the conversation really sets the stage for
a much easier negotiations and much easier conversation. That's where
trust is built.
Speaker 2: That's where the humanity is brought in.
Speaker 3: It's a lot easier to do that than to talk numbers.
And so if you actually give it some breadth and
depth before you jump into transaction, there's something to build
on and people remember you.
Speaker 2: People enjoy doing business with you, People will.
Speaker 3: Want to come back to you. You know, I work
with a lot of entrepreneurs dominique, and I always say,
you know, people don't choose businesses, they choose people. And
it's that memory, you know what I mean, That memory
that you leave with somebody that becomes your value proposition.
And this is true in relationships, this is true in business,
this is true in services that you seek, vendors that
you work with. We always want to go back to
the person that we actually enjoyed working with. And I
think that's the It seems so rational, right, and yet
it's not. We don't often believe that to be true
in the negotiations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. You have one one of my
favorite quotes on your Instagram, which is my Angelo. We
may encounter many defeats, but we may not. We must
not be defeated. I tell myself that all the time.
But the other thing she said is people remember how
you make them feel right, not what you said, but
how write right exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: And that's actually one of my favorites from her because
it's true. Like again, working with small business owners or entrepreneurs,
I tell me, you know, don't worry about spending all
that money on websites and this and that, it's really
about the feeling that you leave with a customer that
allows them to come back to you. That's that's the value.
And it's again going back to just even in our
daily relationships, it's the people that listen to us. It's
the people that hear us and understand us and invest
in us as humans that we feel the most comfortable with,
that we trust the most, that even when things get hard,
that you're going back to that person because because.
Speaker 2: There is a sense of connection and investment in the
humanity of it. And that's you know, and again.
Speaker 3: You being your authentic self makes you more empowered to
do so it's not you're not performing, you're not memorizing lines,
you're just presence, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And I think what's key about that is a lot
of time, at least for me, a lot of times
when people are trying to convince you of something or
negotiate with you, and they do that human connection thing
in a phony way. It can have just the opposite,
you know, affact, Hey.
Speaker 3: How about those fakers?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Right? Right? Yeah, and it is it's like buying a
youth car, right, It's like you know, I got something
for you here. No, it's but you know that it's
we know when somebody is being disingenuous because they haven't
actually either either they're not paying attention to us, so
they're not even hearing what you're saying, or they're distracted
by their cell phone or text, or they haven't done
their home their homework, right, don't talk to me about
something that I don't even care about, or did you
even hear what I just said to you? Did you
even listen to my answer? Because we shut off when
we know people don't care, and we know in authenticity
when we see it, we're not stupid. So but that's
why I'm saying. The work isn't actually being present, so
you're actually hearing somebody, but it's also doing the homework
to know.
Speaker 2: How to connect with this person and really build on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you say it's you say it's sometimes
it's not about I mean, I'm looking at your Instagram
and you say that sometimes it's not about just winning.
You know, we think we think about these things in
zero some What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: First of all, I never use the words winning or
losing because they mean different things to different people. And
you know it's true because my winning may be different
than somebody else is winning, right my if you're if
you are somebody that values relationships, and and it's a
quote quote people, please, your version of winning means both
sides are happy. To somebody that is more competitive, that
may not be their definition of winning.
Speaker 3: So winning means different things. But the other part of
this is the negotiations that the more difficult and yet
most enjoyable to me. Part of the negotiations is when
we do this dance that allows us to find places
where we can compromise, where I'm not giving up the
most important thing that for me, and you're not giving
up the most important thing to you. But yet we
find places where we can compromise and give in a
way that doesn't feel like, you know, a burden to us,
and yet feels like, well, you know what, if this
is what means means the most to you, then great,
here you go.
Speaker 2: This is what I'm looking for.
Speaker 3: Can we find a way that we can problem solve
to make this possible for both of us and negotiations
at the end of the day. To me is really
this notion of problem solving, not not win lose, but
finding a.
Speaker 2: Place where we can create these sort of opportunities.
Speaker 3: That are win win. And that's again that's not easy.
It requires commitment, requires time, it requires understanding, but it
also allows again going back to that my end. Look, well,
it gives you this this feeling of I really enjoyed
doing this with us person. They weren't trying to crush me.
We were trying to find a way to actually not
only continue this conversation, but find ways that are beneficial
for both of us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Also I'm reading something here that
I found quite compelling, which is that when leaders learn
to take the signals from their nervous systems and from
their you know, non logical signals coming from their body
as information rather than interference, they will be a lot
more successful. It sounds very fairy, but also like really smart.
Speaker 3: It is. It's like, you know, sometimes when I'm teaching,
I go, I do a lot around manifestation and mindset,
and I'm like, before we go there, I know this
may sound very like non Wharton like, but I'm not
here to talk to you from sort of non human terms.
I'm here to connect all of these things together. Because
we are human. We have emotions, we have feelings, we
we have a nervous system, we have you know, we
have energy that we carry with us. We have energy
that we we accept from other people, whether for the
good or for the bad. Right and when we are
let's say, let's say, when we get better sleep, when
we are less stressed, when we have a clearer mind,
we can make better decisions. When we are burdened, when
we are stressed, when we are actually not well physically,
those are the things that actually don't.
Speaker 2: Allow us to make better decisions.
Speaker 3: We're tired, we're burned out, we're overwhelmed, and so our
minds and bodies really sort of sit together when it comes.
Speaker 2: To negotiations and decision making.
Speaker 3: You can't separate the two. And that's why for everybody
out there who's experiencing burnout, who is feeling incredibly stressed
and fearsome, these days because there's so much going on
around us. Understanding that where you create boundaries, where you
bring clarity for yourself, where.
Speaker 2: You take those mental and physical breaks, it's really really
important because.
Speaker 3: Not only is it good for you physically, but it's
also great for you emotionally and spiritually and makes you
a better leader, makes you a better partner, makes you
a better parent, makes you a better decision maker.
Speaker 1: Absolutely more to Hairport is our guests. Bring Yourself How
to Negotiate Fearlessly continues after News, Traffic and sports only here.
She's been on Forbes, Inc, Magazine, LinkedIn, Top Voices, Marketplace, Money,
The Next Chapter, ESPN, and and many more. And she
is on faculty Wharton. She also has a book that
we all need to read called Bring Yourself, How to
Negotiate Fearlessly. And when you were talking about this zero
sumthing that we get into, you know, sort of the
predatory negotiator, stomp them out, leave no doubt, win or
takes all kind of mentality, I was thinking about our relationships,
our personal relationships love parent, child, even parent teacher or
I mean child teacher relationships. And if we I think
it sounds like if we took more of the approach
that you're you're describing, we would have happier personal relationships,
not just business relationships.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, honestly, if you think about zero
some relationship, if you win the deal and lose the relationship,
you didn't win, And you know what I mean, and
the person we always think about even in arguments and
what have you, like, I have to be right, but
what does that really mean in a course of a
long term relationship. And honestly, if we could just rethink
about these things, complex will be reduced. If you start
thinking about this as more of a collaboration, then you know,
I have to be right. Well, if you just sit
back and think, well, what is me being right every time?
Actually do the to the person that's sitting across from me,
due to my spouse, or to a friend or a
family member. That does not That is not foundation for
long term relationships. That instead is setting up setting the
grounds for long term resentment. You know, we wonder why
people get divorces. It's because these conversations aren't had in
a way that says, let me really hear you, I
want you to hear me. Let's figure out where we're
missing one another. That takes empathy and understanding, not how
am I going to beat you? How am I going
to be right? And by the way, if we think
we're right every time, we're actually wrong, because there's no
way you know that you can know everything. It's if
you walk through this earth thinking you know everything, is
opposed to walking through this earth with curiosity and empathy,
that that leads to a very unfulfilled and unhappy life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of my favorite yng levan Zant quotes.
She says, would you rather be right or would you
rather be happy?
Speaker 3: Exactly?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 3: It's absolutely true.
Speaker 1: And I have to remind myself. What about negotiating with ourselves?
I think the capacity for self deception is so high?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, because oh, there's so many things to us right,
I always say, the hardest negotiations that I have are
often with myself. Yeah, giving ourselves compassion, listening to our bodies,
understanding our own value, dignifying ourselves with time attention, knowing
what we want and why we deserve it. I mean,
those two things are really so hard for people to
wrap their heads around because we don't really spend time
in introspection and really understanding ourselves. We don't carve out
that space. It's funny because COVID everybody was in their
heads right we weren't going anywhere we were And people
are like, oh my god, I didn't know this about myself.
You know, well you didn't because it was always go, go, go,
and even give yourself that space every day to check
in with yourself and whether it's you know again, I
work with a lot of entrepreneurs. I myself on this category.
You know, I wouldn't make time for illnesses like I
don't have time for that right now. Well, your body
is saying no, you will make time. And if you
don't listen, I'm gonna scream. And when that happens, you
bring down. I mean, there's so little of you left.
And so if we just actually spent the time checking
in with ourselves every day, where are you? Are you happy?
Are you doing what you're supposed to be doing? How
do you feel? You know again, connecting that mind heart,
a connection that you really allowed you to feed you
more information? You know, that is so important. That's the
negotiations in and of itself. Making the space to do
that is as important as anything else in your life.
Speaker 1: So what is that work that we have to do.
I mean, whether we're negotiating with especially negotiating with ourselves,
but negotiating anywhere, what is the work we have to
do on ourselves to be read? I need to show
up and be present and listen and you know, be
compassionate and empathetic.
Speaker 3: That's a few things I think that again, you can't
do any of that if you're distracted. In these days
that distractions come from everywhere. Right, I've reduced my I'm
on a news diet. I always say. I live in DC,
so news is unavoidable, but it gives me so much
physical and mental and spiritual stress that I just shut
it off and I spend that time doing things that
I really enjoy, whether it's just going outside for a
quick walk because I'm feeling very stressed, or turning on
music which is very sort of even spiritually like redeeming
for me. You know, I'd rather be in that space
where I'm happy and lifted as opposed to drowned out
in news that is that feels like it's disintegrating my soul.
You know that it really is pulling me in all
different places. That is bring me no joy, So creating
that space where whether it's five minutes, it's ten minutes,
it's a half an hour. Really those breaks that you
take that cuts off everything else and allows you to
stay in a place where you're hearing yourself and you're
connecting with yourself and you feel it a place of peace,
really really important. And these days, I understand even five
minutes may feel like a lot sometimes when you're ripping
and roaring.
Speaker 2: In twenty thousand directions, but it's so necessary.
Speaker 3: And then the other part of that is is actually
spending the time in conversation with yourself, particularly if you're
going into negotiations or a hard conversation and knowing what
your values are. I always say those are your non negotiables.
What is the last time you could really ask yourself,
what is it that I really want? What is it
that that's really important to me? That I can't negotiate away?
Where are my boundaries? And if you don't have those
conversations with yourself, it's actually not something you can you
can quickly, you know, go to because you don't understand
that you haven't had that conversation with yourself, you haven't
even reflected on it. So how do you have a
hard negotiations or a hard negotiation, a conversation with someone
and don't even know what your stand for. You don't
even know what it is that you want.
Speaker 2: To get out of this conversation.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely do. I was reading the re reading
the four Agreements, and one of the things that I
missed the first time was ask yourself questions like you
don't even you don't even know your position, So how
are you going to listen to someone else's position? It
makes sense I'm in here negotiating, but I don't know
what I want. That sounds like an exercise in futility.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And you know, even even with salary conversations, compensation conversations,
you know, we're so focused on the dollar amount sometimes
that we don't even think, well, if I got to
hire a salary would I would I be happy in that? Up? Well,
is it other things that I want? Is it time
off that I want? Is it do I want to
go back to school? And that's what I really want
to ask them for. But if you can't have those
conversations again with yourself and be really clear, then you're fighting.
Speaker 2: For something you don't not you don't even.
Speaker 3: Want to fight for right and and that's that's absolutely
the truth of it. It feels really simple right when
you say it out loud, but because we were like, oh,
that's easy, but is it really You haven't parked at
the time.
Speaker 1: Have you really asked yourself what it would take to
make you happy and in the job, in the relationship,
in life. And that's why I love the conversation about
persistence versus purpose.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, yes, And I want you to actually speak
to that a little bit more because now that you
just said that, I'm going back to the four agreements. Okay,
tell me a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm really basing it on what you're saying, what
you said, which is kind of like we get on
we can get on this hamster wheel. Well, you know,
I know I want that, you know, not even I know.
It's like that's my goal, that's my goal. That's my goal.
I want to make. I want to make six figures. Right,
I'm going to be, you know, coach of the Year
or whatever it is. And we've been chasing it for
so long that we forget to check in and say, well,
is this my purpose? Am I in alignment with is
you know, is this coming with God's blessings? Do I
even want this anymore? Or, as my late friend Jim
Brown used to say, am I willing to pay the
cost to be the boss?
Speaker 3: You know? Exactly exactly, And we're almost almost pre programmed,
if you will, And we associate certain things with for example,
what success means, right, right, And that's why that's why
people get all the success of the world. They get
the position, they get the accolades, and yet they still
find themselves unhappy. It's because what they were thinking they
should be striving for wasn't, like you just said, in
alignment with their spirit. It wasn't in aligned, in alignment
with their values. It wasn't even aligned with where they
are in life today as opposed to where they were
maybe like fifteen years ago when they set out on
this path. Right.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And we always say and we always talk about, like,
you know, again, the four agreements, the notion of like.
Speaker 2: Don't make assumptions.
Speaker 3: We make a lot of assumptions about how we're supposed
to show up in this world. But what we don't
do is check in with ourselves and say, but is
that what makes you happy? Is that what you actually
want or or have you forgotten to make that connection
in so long that now that you're here, you're miserable
and really sitting with yourself allows you to do that dominique,
and we just don't give ourselves that space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know it again. It sounds airy fairy,
but for me, just even of five, ten, fifteen minutes
of meditation every day, I don't know why it helps,
but it seems to help, so I do it. Whatever
that is. You know, for those of us who like
to go a thousand miles an hour whatever that is,
to slow down, it seems to help the brain, the body,
and the.
Speaker 3: Spirit absolutely, and meditation is tough for some people. It
really is, me included, because my head is going a
million miles on aro. And I used to think what
meditation meant was to don't think about anything that's impossible
but impossible. But things like breathing, not meique, are so important,
just to oxygen that your brain gets and sitting there
and taking you know, five deep breasts like it doesn't
have to be a big commitment, right, it just means
stop your body is talking to you. Stop. You're on
automatic you're running on auto drive, and you don't even
know where you're going, Like, you know, just just sit
still for for a few minutes and breathe, breathe deeply,
and maybe just go instead of you don't have to
go on a five mile walk. You can just walk
around your block for a moment and be a nature
and and just give your body something else to feel
and see and just that change of environment sometimes is
what you need. But you have to be aware that
you need it, otherwise you just keep going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Well, more to her poor is our
guests Bring Yourself how to Negotiate Fearlessly, The fearlessly part
I want to talk about a little bit more when
we come forward on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Well, I'm
feeling a lot more confident about just whatever I have
to negotiate, whether it's with myself, my family, or in
business after this short conversation, so not that short. Thank
you for spending the hour with us. More in terror
port to tell us how to follow you to obviously,
other than going and buying the book Bring Yourself how
to Negotiate Fearlessly, which I seems like a great start,
But how else shall we follow you?
Speaker 3: So actually, my website is probably the most resourceful place
where you can go because it's all my blogs, all
my newsletters are there. I've done probably over one hundred
podcasts with different topics, so it's all there on my
website that's just more into Harryport dot com. But I'm
on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, and obviously the book you
can find anywhere where you buy books. So I'm around,
I'm just about everywhere.
Speaker 1: You're everywhere all at once, and yet you're present and mindful.
Talk to me about the fearlessly part. I think one
of the biggest things that makes negotiation tough, especially in
the workplace or in the marketplace, at least for me,
is fear. Fear of going too far, fear of not
going far enough, fear of being embarrassed, fear of not
knowing what I'm doing, whatever it might be.
Speaker 3: Right. So, first, I don't believe that when I say,
you know, I use fearlessly.
Speaker 2: In the sentence with negotiations, it.
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean that you lack the anxiety or the fear
of starting these conversations, you know. It's I acknowledge that
there's a lot of anxiety when people hear the word negotiations.
They're like, oh my god, I'm so bad at it,
I just don't even want to do it, or oh
my god, if I do it, what if they think
I'm greedy, particularly women.
Speaker 2: Or you know, I don't want to ruin this relationship, or.
Speaker 3: I don't like conflicts, so I don't want to negotiate.
The truth is, if you know there is anxiety, you know, anytime,
particularly if there's a transaction to be dealt with, money
is a very hard conversation for people to have and
sleep to negotiate around. So I think it takes reframing
if we start thinking stop thinking.
Speaker 2: About negotiations again as that sort of.
Speaker 3: One lose proposition that somebody's gonna walk away unhappy, and
instead think about it as we're just problem solving. We're
going to have a conversation. And you know, some conversations
are hard and some are easier, but all this is
is a conversation. And at the end of the day,
if I don't engage in this conversation, the answer is
always know, if I don't engage in this conversation, I
will never get what I'm what I'm looking for. And
so because I'm ignoring it actually puts me in a
place where I will regret not having done it. You know,
we regret all the studies show us we regret the
things that we don't do more than the things that
we do. And maybe it doesn't go our way. And
so you know, asking is the first step. Yeah, and
it's a necessary step.
Speaker 1: I want to circle back quickly to something you said
earlier in the conversation that kind of flew by, which is,
you know, your the thing that makes you uniquely you
can be your strength in a negotiation. And I would imagine,
and this is a question, even if it doesn't sound
like one, that that includes things that are generally considered
by ourselves or others to be flaws in ourselves.
Speaker 3: We'll all laws and I think I think the notion
of and again this was really early in our conversation today,
which is what is a negotiator, a skilled negotiator or
a successful negotiator? Look like, what are those characteristics? And
the truth is there isn't one model. The truth is
that we're trying to live up to this person or
trying to speak in a way or bring different attributes
to the table that aren't ours. That it really is
a performance, you know, and and when we are performing, we.
Speaker 2: Are not present because we're constantly.
Speaker 3: Thinking in our heads. Was that what I was supposed
to say? Or how am I supposed to say this
other thing? Or you know, and and I know, you know,
you walk into negotiations again. Women go through this a lot.
What am I supposed to be wearing? Am I supposed
to smile?
Speaker 2: Am I supposed to not smile?
Speaker 3: Or should I be leaning in? Should I leaning be
leaning back? There's this concept of mirroring that people talk
about negotiations, which I don't subscribe to at all. And
all that means is when they lean in, you lean in.
When they smile, you smile. That is the furthest thing
from being authentic. This is a performance and it's exhausting.
It is exhausting, and we can't you know what I mean,
we can't think clearly.
Speaker 1: So I mean the reason I'm cracking up is because
it sounds like you're in the middle of the negotiation
going who am I supposed to be?
Speaker 3: Like exactly that's historically and it's like and it's like,
by the way, it's like you know, the Goldilock syndrome, right,
Like you're supposed to smile, but don't fill too much.
You're supposed to sort of lean into a conversation. Don't
lean in too hard because they made and you're aggressive,
and it's it's it's a full choice. So I always say,
the easiest person for you to be is yourself, the
one that requires the least amount of memorization and performance.
Is you being yourself? Now, do you want to show
up and be successful in negotiations? Yes, And of course
that requires things like preparation. That requires you being fully
present and not distracted. That requires you putting your phone
away so your mind doesn't go somewhere else. That requires
you to be curious, That requires you to ask questions.
So all those things are true, but none of those
things are performance. And you know the risk of authenticity
is vulnerability, and if that's the biggest risk that you're taking,
well great, because what that means is that you're actually
connected to the person, and you're connected, you're better connected
with yourself, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 4: It will leave you feeling a lot more empowered and
I'm a lot more fulfilled when you know that you
are presenting as.
Speaker 3: Yourself as opposed to pretending to be somebody that you're
not and then at the end not doing well anyway,
and that just you feel like a deer in headlights.
And that's that's not a great feeling.
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, if I when I'm hearing you say that,
we are just diluting ourselves because we're vulnerable even when
we're being phony, we just you know, have we we
have protected ourselves. But you still didn't get the job,
the raise, the whatever, So you were still vulnerable. You
were just vulnerable while wearing a mask, if that makes
any sense exactly. Mary's Harbor to hare Port. Thank you
so much for spending the hour with us. This has
been a very inspiring conversation. I can't wait to read more.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: This has been a great conversation and I appreciate you, and.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you as well. For women, we it's time
for us to come up out of those those parts
of the gender expectations that hold us back. And this
sounds like one great step towards that. Speaking of great women,
Nina Turner will be featured next hour as well. New
York Times writer Jimlboy jam Pack show Straight Ahead, don't
forget to Tap in with Me on social media. I'm
at Daprima Radio like my mama. The late great Poet
Laureate of San Francisco, Diane da Prima, used to say,
the ultimate famine is the starvation of the imagination. Until tomorrow,
my KBLA delegation, One Love,