Speaker 1: Disclaimer. We'd like to know before the start of this
Speaker 1: interview that the opinions about to be expressed by the
Speaker 1: guest of tonight's Getting Salty Experience Podcast are that of
Speaker 1: the guest and do not directly or necessarily reflect the
Speaker 1: views of the host of the Getting Salty Experience Podcast.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the Getting Salty Experience Podcast.
Speaker 3: Hello, no Mike Milner in the chat. Welcome back to
Speaker 3: the Getting Salty Experience Podcast, the only one that brings
Speaker 3: the fly house, kitchen table, guys like Frank Leeb Billity
Speaker 3: with the mustache and mister Chris Stewart to you flyout
Speaker 3: kitchen table and everything that goes with it. Ruffy, Ruffy,
Speaker 3: the new ship saved up young looking baby face.
Speaker 4: Well just as God does.
Speaker 5: Oh what he sounds waiting to see if somebody else
Speaker 5: said something.
Speaker 3: You know what I think, Gods. I think he was
Speaker 3: at death Store and it's like, I gotta do something
Speaker 3: to make myself feel younger.
Speaker 5: Bro.
Speaker 3: He was knocking on the grim Reaper was ready to
Speaker 3: let him in and let me go get my bead
Speaker 3: shaved up so I look young again, to feel better.
Speaker 6: All right, I feel great, I feel great, excellent, feeling good, baby.
Speaker 4: So not as good as leave, not as good as
Speaker 4: the Chief, but I.
Speaker 3: Feel nobody ever feels good as Chief going for himself.
Speaker 3: We got Billy with the mustache year right, Guns.
Speaker 7: Yes, we do.
Speaker 5: You anyway, so.
Speaker 3: Keep going.
Speaker 5: I made made a much special push button just for you,
Speaker 5: just for him.
Speaker 3: You got his own push button. We'll like to welcome
Speaker 3: the Chief, Chris Stewart to the show Phoenix Blazing Hot Arizona,
Speaker 3: and we're gonna talk about two more flies that you
Speaker 3: must know, right.
Speaker 7: Mister one hundred and twenty two degrees, mister, he's mister heat.
Speaker 4: I wanted to done good over there. Cool.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, No, he's not.
Speaker 4: I don't know if anybody does. He's not good. I
Speaker 4: wanted no good thing. I came are good idea?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what commercial we got to play today? Guns?
Speaker 3: We only have armitect Armata.
Speaker 8: And we have the this this other one that you
Speaker 8: know our guests in the corner would like to share
Speaker 8: with us.
Speaker 3: Okay, let's get it go. We'll play that one. At
Speaker 3: the end, we'll space.
Speaker 4: Yeah, at the end.
Speaker 7: All right, let's let's do Let's get from Vince here.
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Speaker 3: And yes, Mike Bild, the Hall of Flame is cool.
Speaker 3: We're talking about maybe trying to get down there to
Speaker 3: do a show. Before we get started, though, I think
Speaker 3: we definitely have to take a moment of silence please
Speaker 3: for the souls and the families of the people that
Speaker 3: were lost in that horrific plane. Chris, Sophie, don't mind.
Speaker 3: Let's take a brief moment of silence. Amen, guys. Well,
Speaker 3: with that guns, we need to get Patriot and then
Speaker 3: we're gonna dive right into Chief Stewart's fire.
Speaker 7: All right, So here we go.
Speaker 2: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States
Speaker 2: of America and to the Republic, for which it stands,
Speaker 2: one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
Speaker 3: As you guys know, this is where we get this
Speaker 3: from thirty five. As you must know, Billy Golf out
Speaker 3: of Frank Leeb and friends. You guys will be at Indie, right,
Speaker 3: They're gonna try to do something there when we get
Speaker 3: as many guys from the book as possible to come in.
Speaker 3: I believe, right. We don't have a time or a
Speaker 3: date yet, right, guys.
Speaker 10: I'm gonna have a book signing, and as soon as
Speaker 10: we know the date, we'll get it to you guys,
Speaker 10: I know you'll be.
Speaker 3: There, and Louis will be there.
Speaker 11: Yep, we should have. We're hoping at least half the
Speaker 11: contributors will be there.
Speaker 3: So awesome, And how's the book sell going. They're still
Speaker 3: flying off the.
Speaker 10: Shelves, that's what they're telling Frank and I. They're astounded.
Speaker 10: I mean, when we came up with the idea, like
Speaker 10: we told you in the previous show, it was kind
Speaker 10: of a no brainer.
Speaker 11: So We're glad it's taken off, you.
Speaker 10: Know, and a lot on Amazon correct, Yeah, Amazon, Fire
Speaker 10: Engineering books and wherever you wherever good books are sold as.
Speaker 3: This and this is a great Yeah. So let's get
Speaker 3: anybody else before we dive into the chief story here.
Speaker 3: I believe it's a supermarket fire correct number eight.
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, Frank, And I can just do a little intro,
Speaker 11: is that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 10: I mean, I'll give it to you from my perspective
Speaker 10: as a subourbon fire guy. This is the fire that
Speaker 10: we really realized that we can pretend all day long
Speaker 10: we're going to be a fast team or rit team.
Speaker 10: But until we saw this fire, we saw the challenges.
Speaker 10: Phoenix went to him back then when it was Bruno
Speaker 10: and Don Abbott, and then.
Speaker 11: They did all these studies afterwards to truly see what
Speaker 11: does it take and what was a wake up call?
Speaker 11: It really was Brett Tarbor who did this fire. It
Speaker 11: was a horrible, horrible fire, but this one made us
Speaker 11: rethink what rapid antervention, what fast teams are. Large area search,
Speaker 11: at least in my generation, was like, hey, wake up,
Speaker 11: you got three knuckle AADs outside the building. That's not
Speaker 11: a fast team.
Speaker 10: They got to be trained, They gotta understand what they
Speaker 10: get into, and I think that really woke up.
Speaker 9: A lot of them.
Speaker 11: So Frank.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 12: Just to add on, I'm going to talk a little
Speaker 12: bit about a person who wrote the chapter on this.
Speaker 9: A really great, great fire ups to firefighter.
Speaker 4: Know him.
Speaker 9: I've known him now for several year. He's the real deal.
Speaker 9: I'm happy that you contributed to this, and I.
Speaker 12: Know you're you worked under under Brunosini, so as they say, right,
Speaker 12: you're a disciple, and I know you have a lot
Speaker 12: of really good insight and you shared it in the book.
Speaker 9: We appreciative it at and we'll dive right into it.
Speaker 12: But just before you do it, I just want to
Speaker 12: make a quick mention that fire number five in the
Speaker 12: book was the telephone fire, and we're approaching the fiftieth
Speaker 12: anniversary of that. I know I'm on the show a lot,
Speaker 12: but I don't think i'll be on before the fiftieth anniversary,
Speaker 12: So I just want to to just bring the awayness
Speaker 12: that February twenty seventh will be the fiftieth anniversary of
Speaker 12: that fire. So just keep all the responders their families
Speaker 12: and the generational impact that incidents have.
Speaker 9: That is certainly a classic example of it. But Chris,
Speaker 9: it's all yours. Thank you, my brother.
Speaker 3: And just to add out to that quick, Chief, we
Speaker 3: did a show with Danny Newton and on the telephone
Speaker 3: far so if you want to go back and check
Speaker 3: it out and learn what it's all about, I employee
Speaker 3: you go back and take a look at that.
Speaker 6: It's the guy too, Dan, He just passed away a
Speaker 6: little while ago, but he was like the main guy
Speaker 6: who kind of brought that to the forefront. And then
Speaker 6: he worked with Chief Leave at the Rock and they
Speaker 6: got that all squared away. So that was a really
Speaker 6: special thing.
Speaker 3: So all right, Chief Stewart, have at it, buddy.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you.
Speaker 5: I appreciate the opportunity to be on here. And it
Speaker 5: was pretty fantastic to be able to participate in this book.
Speaker 5: Obviously the book means something, right, if it's if it's
Speaker 5: if it's flying off the shelves and firing and engineering
Speaker 5: is having a hard time keeping up with the distribution
Speaker 5: and the printing of it. That's that's a fantastic thing.
Speaker 5: And and especially since it's benefiting the charities that you guys.
Speaker 4: Picked to do that.
Speaker 5: That's that's outstanding, and it's and it's legit. And I'll
Speaker 5: just say in the class I was doing and last
Speaker 5: week in Hamilton County there just outside of Cincinnati, we
Speaker 5: used the book to as as part of the class,
Speaker 5: and we pulled ten of the fires out of there
Speaker 5: and and had and broke that. There was about one
Speaker 5: hundred students and broke them up into groups and had
Speaker 5: them go through it, and we started talking about all
Speaker 5: the things that we were seeing, some consistencies we were
Speaker 5: seeing across these the fires that we had selected, and
Speaker 5: and and just making sure that the students become aware
Speaker 5: of it. So, man, the book's fantastic, and I'm I'm
Speaker 5: pretty honored and kind of amazed that I'll get to
Speaker 5: be a part of it. So I appreciate that the
Speaker 5: fire I wrote about and liked to talk about as
Speaker 5: the Southwest Supermarket fire happened March fourteenth, two thousand and
Speaker 5: one here in the city of Phoenix, and really the
Speaker 5: result of the fire cost Brett firefighter Brett Tarvor, his life.
Speaker 5: But there there was there were two other firefighters that
Speaker 5: came out of the building and respiratory arrest and luckily
Speaker 5: they they were, they were able to get them back
Speaker 5: and uh and actually both of those guys came back
Speaker 5: to work and one of them, one of them recently
Speaker 5: passed from uh you know, long long term illness, but
Speaker 5: he was able to work quite a long quite a
Speaker 5: long time. So uh yeah, so it it it like
Speaker 5: all these fires do impacted more than just the folks
Speaker 5: that you know, that that they're remembered for. And that's
Speaker 5: that's a picture of Brett right there. Brett and I
Speaker 5: were actually kind of the same generation the Phoenix Fire Department.
Speaker 5: He was the class right after me. Uh so we
Speaker 5: we came on together and kind of were working our
Speaker 5: way through the system together.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: Fantastic firefighter. And one of the parts of the story,
Speaker 5: he's a big giant man. He's about six five and weighed,
Speaker 5: you know, two hundred and seventy five pounds. So it
Speaker 5: was that didn't that didn't help getting him out of
Speaker 5: the building, right. I wanted him at every fire I
Speaker 5: went to, but when we were trying to when when
Speaker 5: the crews were trying to move him, and that that
Speaker 5: that made it for a challenge. So this fire was
Speaker 5: in a grocery store kind of an old community grocery
Speaker 5: store in the southwest part of Phoenix had been there
Speaker 5: since the fifties, which, by the way, in the city
Speaker 5: of Phoenix is old. I realized, we live in a
Speaker 5: pretty new city and most most everybody, at least you
Speaker 5: guys that participate in here, know about old cities. We
Speaker 5: really don't. So this is an old building to us.
Speaker 5: And and actually thankfully it was an old building for
Speaker 5: us because it tolerated more fire conditions than any of
Speaker 5: the modern construction would tolerate these days here in Phoenix.
Speaker 5: So this, this grocery store had basically an anchor store
Speaker 5: and a very small strip center. There were three other occupancies.
Speaker 5: They're connected to it. The kind of in the grocery
Speaker 5: cart kind of surrounded these two other occupancies. There had
Speaker 5: been a kid who had been arrested in the store
Speaker 5: for shoplifting a few days earlier, and he was he
Speaker 5: was kind of pissed, and so he came back and
Speaker 5: lit the the trash and the cardboard boxes and stuff
Speaker 5: back on the loading dock on fire. And this all
Speaker 5: came out in the investigation and and and whatnot after
Speaker 5: after the incident. So, uh, the first du engine is
Speaker 5: actually out. They're they're they're down at the shop getting
Speaker 5: getting something fixed. They dispatch a still assignment, which is
Speaker 5: one engine for us in this system. And uh, and
Speaker 5: so the second deuce headed in there, the first new
Speaker 5: engine and the first new battalion chief actually see a
Speaker 5: column of smoke, you know, they're they're they're headed back
Speaker 5: into the neighborhood and uh, they start heading there and
Speaker 5: then it quickly gets upgraded as as the smoke starts
Speaker 5: to grow. So this building, uh, the way it's situated,
Speaker 5: it's facing east in in Phoenix, it's not well. The
Speaker 5: commonality the common weather pattern here is in the afternoons
Speaker 5: we get winds out of the west and uh, and
Speaker 5: this happened to be one of those days where we
Speaker 5: had some more significant winds. So as you can see
Speaker 5: here on the on the left hand side where those
Speaker 5: where those power polls are, that's the loading dock area
Speaker 5: where the fire was started. That also happened to be
Speaker 5: the windward side of the building. There's a roll up
Speaker 5: door there, there's a couple of man doors, and there's
Speaker 5: also some events that that lead into that back storage
Speaker 5: area of the grocery store. So so Engine twenty four
Speaker 5: shows up, They stretch lines back there. They've got lines
Speaker 5: and power lines had dropped down in there, so they
Speaker 5: had some arcing, so they were they were really kind
Speaker 5: of slowed down actually being able to get back there
Speaker 5: and get water on the fire. The fire burns for
Speaker 5: a little bit, uh, the wind is down definitely impacting it,
Speaker 5: and it extends up into the trust loft there above
Speaker 5: the storage area and then starts working its way across
Speaker 5: the attic space of that building. So when Engine fourteen arrives,
Speaker 5: they show up with actually a couple other engines right
Speaker 5: on their heels, and they go to work trying to
Speaker 5: figure out exactly where the fire is. Some of the
Speaker 5: second and third new company wasn't as familiar with the
Speaker 5: building as the first new crews were, and they went
Speaker 5: into these other occupants he here on the Alpha bra
Speaker 5: Alpha Bravo corner, thinking that they would take them back
Speaker 5: to where the fire is. They realized that those were
Speaker 5: separated from all the other spaces in the grocery store,
Speaker 5: so they actually had to come out and then make
Speaker 5: their way into the grocery store itself.
Speaker 6: Stretch of hold on Chief one second, so the building
Speaker 6: on the left in that left corner that has the roof.
Speaker 6: That's separate occupantcy. That's why roof is still intact there.
Speaker 4: Exactly. They don't communicate at all.
Speaker 5: There's no entrances into the store exactly. It's an old
Speaker 5: Hase hardware It was a clothing store and a beauty
Speaker 5: shop in there. And yeah, they don't have any connection
Speaker 5: into the grocery store at all.
Speaker 4: Okay, problem they went in there first, obviously.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, So Battalion Chief arrives, he he, he initiates,
Speaker 5: or he takes command from Engine twenty four, starts directing
Speaker 5: companies and trying to figure out exactly where where this
Speaker 5: fire is and where the best way is we're going
Speaker 5: to be able to get to it. Engine twenty four
Speaker 5: stretches in through the front door, and while they're in there,
Speaker 5: they're starting to look for the fire above them. So
Speaker 5: this is two thousand and one. This is pre tip cameras.
Speaker 5: This is before you know, a lot of the a
Speaker 5: lot of the better technology that we have now. And
Speaker 5: it's also happens to be before we had a lot
Speaker 5: of information about fire behavior and and wind and a
Speaker 5: lot of the other conditions that really really you know,
Speaker 5: kicked our tail this day. And so while they're back
Speaker 5: there trying to locate the fire. They come to a
Speaker 5: spot there they get lines charged on the inside and
Speaker 5: they start trying to get water up into that trust
Speaker 5: loft in the back. They're having a difficult time getting
Speaker 5: water in there.
Speaker 4: They're trying to.
Speaker 5: Find the space, the space where they can actually get
Speaker 5: to the fire. They were talking about like twenty to
Speaker 5: twenty five foot ceilings in there. We've got steel Joy's
Speaker 5: trusses up there, and then there is those openings on
Speaker 5: the windward side. The wind is starting to pick up,
Speaker 5: and the wind's starting to you know, kind of severely
Speaker 5: impact the fire behavior inside that building, and the conditions
Speaker 5: are starting to get worse and worse, and to the
Speaker 5: point where the guys that are working in there say,
Speaker 5: literally within thirty seconds, it goes from being able to see,
Speaker 5: you know, a fair distance through that grocery store to
Speaker 5: smoke smoke to the floor and they're having a difficult
Speaker 5: time seeing their feet. And at that point they had
Speaker 5: been functioning in there, working in there a little while
Speaker 5: and recognized, hey, we're not getting this. Conditions are not
Speaker 5: getting better on the outside. The incident commander decides, hey,
Speaker 5: we're going defensive. Is this one's getting us. So as
Speaker 5: the crews are transitioning out of the building, they have
Speaker 5: zero visibility, they have a lot of hose line in there,
Speaker 5: probably way too much hose line actually, and they start
Speaker 5: to exit out that front side of the grocery store.
Speaker 5: In that process, firefighter Brett Tarbor and firefighter side Joy,
Speaker 5: who they're the backseat firefighters on Engine four team, they
Speaker 5: get disoriented and get off, get up, lose contact with
Speaker 5: their hose line, and they are like, okay, well, we
Speaker 5: know how we got in here. We're gonna we think
Speaker 5: we know which way to go, and they end up
Speaker 5: heading in the wrong direction, end up running into that
Speaker 5: back wall and Brett now at this point has low
Speaker 5: air alarms going off. Uh, And Brett and Ci get separated,
Speaker 5: and the first may day call comes out from from Brett.
Speaker 5: And this really was before, you know, we were way
Speaker 5: more proficient at calling may day's, being very very uh,
Speaker 5: you know, informative, I guess it would be the right
Speaker 5: word when you're calling may day's. And so essentially his
Speaker 5: may day is, Hey, I'm in the back of this store,
Speaker 5: I'm really low on air and I need some help.
Speaker 5: And so at that point the crews had that had
Speaker 5: just exited the building immediately react to that, and they
Speaker 5: go back in. Unfortunately, they go back in and many
Speaker 5: of them were already in the bottom half or the
Speaker 5: bottom third of their air as well, so in uh
Speaker 5: and so the incident commander ends up assigning some more
Speaker 5: companies to go and try and respond to this may day,
Speaker 5: knowing where he is and knowing what you know, from
Speaker 5: what position he came in on. He Brett ends up
Speaker 5: running out of air and uh he he he removes
Speaker 5: his mask, so now he's breathing you know, super toxic air.
Speaker 5: He's becoming very hypoxic. A couple of firefighters, i know,
Speaker 5: the company officer of Engine twenty one and a couple
Speaker 5: of other firefighters actually get a hold of Brett and
Speaker 5: now he's behaving, you know, erradically. He's being he's combative,
Speaker 5: and they're like, hey man, you've got to come with us,
Speaker 5: and and he starts to come with them, crawling out
Speaker 5: on the line, and then he pushes them away and
Speaker 5: goes in the other direction. So he's not he's you know,
Speaker 5: he's now so you know, confused because of the environment
Speaker 5: that he's he's not able to help himself and and
Speaker 5: by the time they locate him again, he's unconscious. He
Speaker 5: actually does not have his uh uh, he doesn't have
Speaker 5: his bottle and his mask on, doesn't have his helmet on,
Speaker 5: his jacket is half off, so he's trying to try.
Speaker 5: You know, when when you're in those throws, there's no
Speaker 5: you know, you don't make you're not making any sense
Speaker 5: in what you're doing. So that was actually one of
Speaker 5: the reasons why we ended up being so difficult to
Speaker 5: remove him from the building. So over the next twenty
Speaker 5: five minutes or so, cruse work both from the front
Speaker 5: side and the Bravo side to get him out. They
Speaker 5: decide that they're going to take him through the side.
Speaker 5: It's a shorter distance to get out of the building,
Speaker 5: but it's the back of the grocery store and a
Speaker 5: grocery community grocery store that had just gotten you know,
Speaker 5: their their delivery, and so the back of the store
Speaker 5: is just stacked up with racks of soda and produce
Speaker 5: and all this, so it's very very difficult to get through.
Speaker 5: In the end, multiple multiple crews work on getting bred
Speaker 5: out of the building. Like I said, two other firefighters
Speaker 5: working on him looking for him. End up coming out
Speaker 5: of the building in respiratory arrest because they just worked,
Speaker 5: so they worked past their air, had to remove their masks,
Speaker 5: take that smoke in. Luckily, they're found quickly and removed
Speaker 5: from the building. In total, there's thirteen may days given
Speaker 5: at this incident, from what we believed to be three
Speaker 5: or four. We're not one hundred percent sure exactly how
Speaker 5: many people communicated may days. And then he ultimately comes
Speaker 5: out of the building about the fifty minute mark.
Speaker 7: Of this incident.
Speaker 5: So, like, like Billy said, a lot of the things
Speaker 5: that we draw from, well, there's a ton of things
Speaker 5: that were actually drawn from this incident, and we can
Speaker 5: talk about you know, as many as as many as
Speaker 5: you guys would like, but uh, really there's the The
Speaker 5: number one thought was is there's no way that building
Speaker 5: should have lasted that long and and tolerated that. One
Speaker 5: of our one of the responses was, is they're starting
Speaker 5: to work on the building, is hey, we need to
Speaker 5: ventilate this thing. We need to try and get as
Speaker 5: much of this smoke out of here. But what we
Speaker 5: have is wind driven conditions. We're not we can't manage
Speaker 5: the wind impacting this. We end up taking all the
Speaker 5: glass on the front. And I and I'm speaking from
Speaker 5: a from a position of this is, this is what
Speaker 5: we thought was best at the time, and those we
Speaker 5: this is everybody in the Phoenix Fire Department, right, And
Speaker 5: so the incident commander is like, all right, we need
Speaker 5: to get that glass out on the front. There's a
Speaker 5: truck company on the roof cutting ventilation holes. And in
Speaker 5: the end that those actions of drastically increasing those exhaust
Speaker 5: points and having wind driven conditions where the fire was,
Speaker 5: we end up flashing that that twenty six thousand square
Speaker 5: foot grocery store over and like, I don't I'm not
Speaker 5: super familiar with any space is that big that have
Speaker 5: have have flashed over very often? Right, And so as
Speaker 5: we're removing them out the back, they've got fire over
Speaker 5: their head. The grocery store now is burning like mad.
Speaker 5: And it got to the point where the chief in
Speaker 5: charge that had been put in charge there that brobo
Speaker 5: side when engine one and or excuse me, when engine
Speaker 5: six and ladder one went in and he goes, hey, listen,
Speaker 5: if you guys don't get him out, we're stopping like
Speaker 5: you are the last ones going in. We are not
Speaker 5: gonna We're not gonna kill a bunch of cruis in here.
Speaker 5: And and that was met with the resistance that you
Speaker 5: guys would think it was met with U but it
Speaker 5: obviously did something for those crews because they got him
Speaker 5: out and uh and and and knowing those those crews,
Speaker 5: knowing them very well, like they were there, they were
Speaker 5: both crews I want coming to get me and so
Speaker 5: highly motivated, very skilled, and and very fit. And so
Speaker 5: they end up getting him out of the building just
Speaker 5: in time, within five minutes or so, we lose a
Speaker 5: significant part of the roof. And and then and then
Speaker 5: we go.
Speaker 11: On just really important point that you know and the
Speaker 11: that at that.
Speaker 10: Time, and I think that you're trying to say what
Speaker 10: we know today and what we knew back then, right,
Speaker 10: two different things almost And that time and previous opening
Speaker 10: up was always a good thing, always a good to
Speaker 10: open it up, get it open, get it open. And
Speaker 10: this was one of those first fires in that as
Speaker 10: we started to learn most of the time we want
Speaker 10: to get it open, but there are times where we
Speaker 10: need to manage that a little bit better.
Speaker 11: Right Is that fair to say.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's one hundred percent, And that's that's one of
Speaker 5: the things that I wrote in there is Okay, what
Speaker 5: do we know now right? And what what helps us?
Speaker 5: At that point, ventilation was ventilation. We considered ventilation as
Speaker 5: part of cooling the environment. What we know now is
Speaker 5: ventilation will only cool those compartments if you're actually putting
Speaker 5: water on the fire, if we're actually getting control of
Speaker 5: the fire itself. Because you add air, it's gonna get bigger,
Speaker 5: it's gonna get worse. And as Dan Madrakowski's say, it
Speaker 5: doesn't get rid of the smoke, it's gonna make more smoke.
Speaker 5: So so those those one hundred pounds brain guys at FSRI, I, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, they've been trying to help us a lot.
Speaker 5: I don't know. Uh, you know, we got pretty thick
Speaker 5: skulls in the fire service. So it's taking us a
Speaker 5: little while to kind of learn learn these things that
Speaker 5: they're trying to teach us. But yeah, that's one hundred percent.
Speaker 5: Uh the truth, Billy is is and and and we
Speaker 5: wrote and I'm gonna I also part of me wants
Speaker 5: to brag on the Phoenix Fire Department because what happened afterwards,
Speaker 5: But there was a report that was written, an internal
Speaker 5: report was written. It came out one day short of
Speaker 5: a year and in the back with some very clear
Speaker 5: stuff about what we think we did right and what
Speaker 5: we think we need to improve.
Speaker 4: And one of the things.
Speaker 5: We wrote about was we needed more ventilation, and and
Speaker 5: we know that's just not the case now and and so,
Speaker 5: but the other things we said about fire attack, getting
Speaker 5: water on the fire, the volumes of water, all those
Speaker 5: things that, I mean, we we could have been We
Speaker 5: were one hundred percent right at that point, but we
Speaker 5: just didn't know what we didn't know about ventilation. And
Speaker 5: there's a there's a story that goes back.
Speaker 4: And we got a lot of feedback. Uh, just chief,
Speaker 4: So let me let me ask you this.
Speaker 6: So, looking at that building, that looks like a pretty
Speaker 6: deep building, right, So those guys made it to that
Speaker 6: office area, right, they made it to the manene area
Speaker 6: or whatever that was.
Speaker 5: Well, it was actually really the butcher shop yep.
Speaker 6: Okay, So what was like was the fire in like
Speaker 6: a ceiling area or was like what was the issue
Speaker 6: with them not actually getting water on the fire if
Speaker 6: they were in the general.
Speaker 4: Area all the way in the back there?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's uh, in the in the storage area,
Speaker 5: it was a mix of wood and steel in that roof.
Speaker 5: It was all burning above them. It was not burning
Speaker 5: down in any of the stores, but all the fire
Speaker 5: was above them initially, and that's how it moved across
Speaker 5: that that store. And it was all an open open uh.
Speaker 5: There was drop ceiling in the in the grocery store
Speaker 5: part of it was open in the in the storage
Speaker 5: room part and it just traveled through that that that
Speaker 5: open space, and it was all all all connected, that
Speaker 5: attic space, connected from side to side from the back.
Speaker 7: Chief. Did you say it was a wood trust.
Speaker 5: It was actually steel trust. Throughout the grocery store there
Speaker 5: was some there was wood decking and then a little
Speaker 5: bit of wood trust in and over the the storage
Speaker 5: area there where the closest to where the fire started.
Speaker 9: Okay, any Chris, So you know you mentioned the Phoenix
Speaker 9: Fight apartment.
Speaker 12: You know they had tactics and all it was you
Speaker 12: know on really on March fourteenth of two thousand and one,
Speaker 12: that was the way everybody did it, no matter where
Speaker 12: you are. And I think you know so when when
Speaker 12: we approached you about writing this chapter, you the way
Speaker 12: you wrote the chapter is really a really good lesson
Speaker 12: plan of what we've learned, Right, and it's so when
Speaker 12: we when we look at a fire like this in
Speaker 12: with twenty twenty perfect vision, we're able to look at
Speaker 12: and examine what we what, we know, what we know,
Speaker 12: we know, what we didn't know, we didn't know. And
Speaker 12: I think the evolution of not only Phoenix Fire Department,
Speaker 12: but everywhere right residential tactics on commercial buildings, ventilation with
Speaker 12: suppression and coordination of that. I love this statement you
Speaker 12: made the building tolerated fire conditions. And I know you
Speaker 12: know I sat on the fire structure panel and we
Speaker 12: sat there in front of commercial buildings as we were
Speaker 12: burning these and in some cases learning lessons and in
Speaker 12: many cases reinforcing lessons that we had already learned. So
Speaker 12: this chapter is incredibly important in the story because it
Speaker 12: really meshes together the experience of your department at that
Speaker 12: fire and the research and where we are today and
Speaker 12: how the fire service has improved because of this fire,
Speaker 12: not not just the Phoenix Fire Department. And I think
Speaker 12: when you think of a fire, that you must know
Speaker 12: when we're able to have so many takeaways from it
Speaker 12: is the true value and the true way that we
Speaker 12: never forget. Firefighters such as Brett Tarver.
Speaker 5: I really appreciate you saying that I agree. And that
Speaker 5: was kind of the intent at least, you know that
Speaker 5: we had in our mind and and you and I
Speaker 5: have talked about it, and and so that was the goal.
Speaker 5: I will say that it wasn't a mistake or it
Speaker 5: wasn't it wasn't an accident. What happened afterwards, right, because
Speaker 5: I happened to work for probably the most progressive fire
Speaker 5: chief that uh, you know that we've seen, maybe maybe
Speaker 5: ever and uh. In his position was that uh and
Speaker 5: and and he said it the next morning, so he
Speaker 5: was actually out of town teaching. Uh, they call him up.
Speaker 5: And and as as the guys who called him up said,
Speaker 5: hey man, we had to call the old man and
Speaker 5: break his heart. We we we lost a firefighter. And
Speaker 5: so he jumps on a plane overnight, comes back lands
Speaker 5: that pick him up. He said, hey man, let's go
Speaker 5: there right now. So head head over to the fire
Speaker 5: uh fire investigators there they take him through and and
Speaker 5: right then and there his decision was all right. Every
Speaker 5: company over the next three days on duty is walking
Speaker 5: this building and uh, and so we were Phoenix is
Speaker 5: the kind of the big city in this in the
Speaker 5: in the valley here. But we've got like twenty other
Speaker 5: agencies in around us, and we all work in a
Speaker 5: we're all dispatched by the same place, and we all
Speaker 5: work without boundaries. It, you know, it is like a
Speaker 5: big system. And so everybody in that system walked it
Speaker 5: the next three days, and his goal was I don't
Speaker 5: want any nonsense going on in the firehouse going Yeah,
Speaker 5: that wouldn't happen to us. You know, that was that's that,
Speaker 5: that was them, that in us, that was nothing. He
Speaker 5: everybody's going to get the same sense of walking through that.
Speaker 5: I can tell you what the back of that grocery
Speaker 5: store smelled like when we walked through. I know, I
Speaker 5: can visualize the whole thing. And it leveled the playing field.
Speaker 5: I think it was one of the smartest things I've
Speaker 5: It leveled the playing field. And really, for the next
Speaker 5: five years till he retired in two thousand and six,
Speaker 5: we were one hundred percent of an organization focused on,
Speaker 5: all right, what do we gotta do to not have
Speaker 5: this happen again? And then he was already notorious, and
Speaker 5: I mean that in the best way, you know, for
Speaker 5: being out there and talking to folks and being a
Speaker 5: part of the Fire Service. So he was like, hey,
Speaker 5: we're sharing everything. Nothing is getting swept under the rug.
Speaker 5: We're not going to talk about this. I want everybody
Speaker 5: to learn from So literally, that report comes out, it
Speaker 5: gets shared with the world. Every time we do something
Speaker 5: or we figure something out, we're sharing it. And they
Speaker 5: were talking at FDIC every time they could. They were
Speaker 5: talking at any place they could, you know that would
Speaker 5: actually have them talk about the incident to be able
Speaker 5: to describe, you know, what we're learning about this. I
Speaker 5: was a brand spanking new company officer. Tom Higgins was
Speaker 5: a captain of Engine fourteen that day. He and I
Speaker 5: were on the same officers list, and and and we
Speaker 5: got promoted just a few months apart. So I had
Speaker 5: been a captain for eleven months. Tom had probably been
Speaker 5: for eight or nine months. So like, my connection to
Speaker 5: him going through this is I'm like, hey, man, I'm
Speaker 5: I'm in his shoes. This could happen to me tomorrow
Speaker 5: or me and my crew. I don't I want to
Speaker 5: do anything I can not to have that happen to
Speaker 5: my folks. I gotta be good for them. So and
Speaker 5: I don't think I was in the least bit special
Speaker 5: in that there were a lot of folks in the
Speaker 5: department thinking like that, and so we spent the next
Speaker 5: five years trying to figure it out. And and that's
Speaker 5: the one of the things, like in our religious society
Speaker 5: today and you know, all the other distractions and nonsense
Speaker 5: going on, it makes it's probably way more difficult in
Speaker 5: today's environment. But like, if I had to be a
Speaker 5: boss going through that, I don't see any other way
Speaker 5: to do it than than all right, we're going to
Speaker 5: be an open book. We're going to talk about this,
Speaker 5: and I want the fire service to benefit from it.
Speaker 5: Take it what, take what you need. Well, we don't
Speaker 5: ram it down anybody's throat. We don't want to do
Speaker 5: anything crazy. But like there there's stuff here that firefighters
Speaker 5: can learn from. And if it if it's somebody else
Speaker 5: from getting screwed up, or it helps another part fire
Speaker 5: department actually do a good job.
Speaker 9: Then then yeah, man, that's.
Speaker 5: That's what we need to do. For Brett Tarvor and so.
Speaker 5: And Brett's picture actually is in the front page of
Speaker 5: our Operations manual, so so our our our ops Procedures
Speaker 5: has Brett's picture on the on the first page. And
Speaker 5: so it's and it's named after him, because what's in there,
Speaker 5: he still is impacting what's in there today?
Speaker 6: You got a question, Coop, I got a question, good Chief,
Speaker 6: I want to while you were talking. It just like
Speaker 6: things that stick after me. And again, I don't know
Speaker 6: much about this fire. I wanted to come into this
Speaker 6: like totally spontaneous. So with the report of what you
Speaker 6: learned afterwards. When the order was to remove everybody, was like,
Speaker 6: I've we've all been in that situation where we're operating
Speaker 6: in the store or we're operating in a big area
Speaker 6: wherever it is, and the chief says everybody out, and
Speaker 6: inevitably what happens is people start nicking on the line
Speaker 6: right or whatever they get they get to get the
Speaker 6: line out right. But meanwhile you have people who were
Speaker 6: searching around. You have a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 6: So it was always, you know, my thing, and I
Speaker 6: learned this from guys that I work with, was just
Speaker 6: to make sure we had everybody the line, that the
Speaker 6: nozzle was the last thing to back out right, and
Speaker 6: you make sure we have everybody and we move out
Speaker 6: in an orderly fashion. Somewhat in orderly fashion obviously unless
Speaker 6: it's really getting silly. But it didn't seem like that
Speaker 6: was the case here. I mean, you said it went
Speaker 6: to zero, but it wasn't like they had a tremendous
Speaker 6: amount of heat or anything.
Speaker 4: I don't know for a fact, but was was that
Speaker 4: something that they.
Speaker 6: Discussed Where was ass is and elbows getting out or
Speaker 6: did they start to move out in orderly fashion and.
Speaker 4: It was just that he was off the line or
Speaker 4: something like that. How did that happen?
Speaker 5: That's good question. So I think there's a few things
Speaker 5: at play here. When they when they first stretched their
Speaker 5: line back in there, they stretched dry, and that's something
Speaker 5: we don't we try not to do now. And so
Speaker 5: when they stretched in dry and good conditions, they also
Speaker 5: brought in probably way more hoes than they needed to.
Speaker 5: So they ended up with with some loops in there,
Speaker 5: and the aisles of the store ran front to back,
Speaker 5: uh you know, as you're looking in the front door.
Speaker 5: So they stretched these lines down there, they've got loops
Speaker 5: of line. When the line gets charged, it expanded out,
Speaker 5: started knocking displays over. Things are coming down onto the
Speaker 5: hose and starting to create some difficulty there with kind
Speaker 5: of coming out on the hose. They they started, i
Speaker 5: think based on based on interviews and and what has
Speaker 5: been discussed with those crews when they started moving out.
Speaker 5: I think it starts did it in orderly fashion, but
Speaker 5: I think there was a little bit of oh ship
Speaker 5: creeping in and and getting distracted and then they're then
Speaker 5: they're encountering uh you know, things that have fallen on
Speaker 5: the line, and there it gets them distracted, loses contact
Speaker 5: with the line because I think they were getting a
Speaker 5: little bit impatient, like hey man, we need to get
Speaker 5: out of here, and and and and I think that
Speaker 5: played a lot into it. And so, uh so, yeah,
Speaker 5: what we took away is we're going to do everything
Speaker 5: we can not to stretch and dry. We're gonna do
Speaker 5: be way better at estimating our stretches so we're not
Speaker 5: bringing a way more hoes in the in the occupancy
Speaker 5: than we need to do.
Speaker 10: Yeah, didn't following that and you put all the companies
Speaker 10: through there, didn't. You guys spend years with Don Abbott
Speaker 10: and others trying to figure out how long a stretch and.
Speaker 11: How many people it takes and can you touch on
Speaker 11: that a little bit?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you know that it kind of got termed
Speaker 5: as the recovery, and I don't know where that came from.
Speaker 5: That was just the name of it. And so we
Speaker 5: put together this committee and you know, like fire departments do,
Speaker 5: and there were folks looking at the command level there
Speaker 5: and there were folks looking, you know, down at the
Speaker 5: task level. And at the task level, we were looking
Speaker 5: at being better at getting in and you know, true
Speaker 5: commercial tactics all what I'll call commercial tactics versus single
Speaker 5: family residents. We are a we are a built out
Speaker 5: single family home for you know, as far as you
Speaker 5: can see and one story typically single family homes as
Speaker 5: far as you can see, ranch style. And so that's
Speaker 5: where we go to fires. That's where we go to
Speaker 5: ninety percent of our fires. And then we we we
Speaker 5: did some we did we do fires and commercial buildings,
Speaker 5: but I think for the most part we had gotten
Speaker 5: lucky at a fair amount of those. And then so
Speaker 5: we worked on that stuff, and then we worked on
Speaker 5: hey man, when something goes bad, how what is the
Speaker 5: best way to get people out of that, out of
Speaker 5: the hazard zone, and and that help order is probably
Speaker 5: the best thing. So you know, there have been this
Speaker 5: focus on you need writ companies or fast companies, whatever
Speaker 5: whatever the terminology is going to be and you need
Speaker 5: people coming from the outside. Ind well, I do think
Speaker 5: that matters, and they do have to have training, they
Speaker 5: need to be properly equipped, extra air, all that type
Speaker 5: of stuff. But we ignored who's working on fixing that
Speaker 5: may day first, and that's usually the individual that's involved
Speaker 5: in it if they can, and the crew their crew,
Speaker 5: and the crew is working around them. So now we
Speaker 5: need to build a system. The better the better manages
Speaker 5: the may day part of it with crews on the
Speaker 5: inside and crews from the outside and doing a better
Speaker 5: job of managing air. Like So this fire is where
Speaker 5: the heads up displays in in our in our masks
Speaker 5: come comes from. This is where the fall and firefighter
Speaker 5: harness comes from, in the in the in the in
Speaker 5: the back top of our coat, right see and remove
Speaker 5: fullham and remove folks. So there are things that we
Speaker 5: learned both from the firetack get lines in being smarter
Speaker 5: that way and managing our air. And then all right,
Speaker 5: when we do have something stupid happen, how are we
Speaker 5: going to get people out of there in the most
Speaker 5: expedient The term that came out of it is rapid intervention.
Speaker 9: Ain't rapidly is yeah, which it's not right. It's still
Speaker 9: a challenge and d I D right. The drag rescue
Speaker 9: device is the device you was speaking about. What came
Speaker 9: of that?
Speaker 12: So knowing the time to task, how long it takes
Speaker 12: to do something, how many people it takes?
Speaker 9: Right, all different things to consider.
Speaker 12: How fast is rapid intervention, if we don't if we
Speaker 12: don't know how long it takes to remove somebody out
Speaker 12: in the normal condition for how many people?
Speaker 9: To all of all of.
Speaker 12: That, Hey, I want I want to read a line
Speaker 12: from what Chris wrote in the book Real Quick, as
Speaker 12: many smart folks have been teaching, if you engage agent
Speaker 12: a fight on the fire ground, your tactics suck.
Speaker 3: That's great. I mean, that's a great line.
Speaker 12: I love that, right because it's about you know, being
Speaker 12: better and making sure that you have the best tactics
Speaker 12: based on what we know today.
Speaker 5: Yeah, bring in as much water as you can tolerate.
Speaker 5: That's really our only shot.
Speaker 4: Was there a lot was Was there just one line
Speaker 4: in the building at that time or did they have
Speaker 4: multiple lines in there?
Speaker 5: There were actually two lines, and then then the line
Speaker 5: that had been working on the exterior fire two lines
Speaker 5: inside the building and another another point that I think
Speaker 5: is connected to what Frank said you what you asked
Speaker 5: is is uh, I don't have any evidence from the interviews,
Speaker 5: from a NIOSH report, from personal conversations that one drop
Speaker 5: of water was flowed after the may day was called.
Speaker 5: So I absolutely get firefighters, we are all going to
Speaker 5: respond to that may day, right if we're in and
Speaker 5: around that, we have the ability somebody's got to keep
Speaker 5: flowing exactly, and and so uh that that that's a
Speaker 5: that's an important takeaway I think from this. We we
Speaker 5: part of this thing was figuring out how we're going
Speaker 5: to manage may days because uh, the first thing we
Speaker 5: did is like, man, we need to exercise. We got
Speaker 5: what we've got written down in policy and what we
Speaker 5: how we think this is going to work. And so
Speaker 5: we did and it didn't work, and and and and
Speaker 5: again more credit to Bruno is he instead of saying, hey,
Speaker 5: you have to make these work, he's like, all right, well,
Speaker 5: what the hell is going to work? Like what do
Speaker 5: we actually need to do? And so they they invested
Speaker 5: the time and money and effort in companies figuring it out.
Speaker 5: And I think, uh, well, I don't think we necessarily
Speaker 5: there isn't a perfect thing, right, but we figured out
Speaker 5: for us what works way more effective of lee and uh.
Speaker 5: And it was line level guys, it was officers, it
Speaker 5: was firefighters saying this is stupid. This we this is
Speaker 5: not gonna work, and then going okay, then let's figure
Speaker 5: it out. And and they had a bigger hand in
Speaker 5: fixing it, as you know any of the bosses did.
Speaker 5: And and I could I say thank you to those
Speaker 5: bosses because they listened. And that's on. That's that's not
Speaker 5: super common. I think we can we can all say
Speaker 5: that there's a there's a it's only a small percentage
Speaker 5: that of bosses that have that level of ego to
Speaker 5: to be able to respond that way and and uh
Speaker 5: and and actually really figure something out.
Speaker 11: You know, Chris, It always makes me think.
Speaker 10: In the eighties, Ricky Pierce died in the line of
Speaker 10: duty in Phoenix and it was a tigerling explosion. They
Speaker 10: were cutting into the tank and exploded.
Speaker 7: He was on the arm.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 10: And so we saw ran into Bruno at one of
Speaker 10: the our conferences and I said, I got to tell you,
Speaker 10: I'm stunned that you're sharing all this information, and in
Speaker 10: his classic fashion, goes, well, the attorneys are gonna find
Speaker 10: out anyway. In other words, share what you know, right,
Speaker 10: And the same thing here you're saying that he's not
Speaker 10: worried about attorneys. They're going to find us anyway.
Speaker 11: Here's what we did right, here's what we did wrong.
Speaker 11: Here's how we can fix it.
Speaker 10: So whether it's Tricky Pierce or Brett Tarbor, they matter.
Speaker 10: Their deaths matter, right that that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's one thing.
Speaker 4: Go ahead, go ahead, you I was.
Speaker 5: Just gonna say, it's one thing for you know, you
Speaker 5: can write that stuff on walls and put it in
Speaker 5: your policies and do all that other stuff. But it's
Speaker 5: another to walk the walk. And uh and and I
Speaker 5: know that guy was like, I can give you a
Speaker 5: list as long as my arm of of times he
Speaker 5: was walking the walk.
Speaker 3: That's who you want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you.
Speaker 6: I've like everybody, we've been to supermarket bars and things that.
Speaker 6: You know, like you said, you don't go to a
Speaker 6: lot of well, when you get to like you said,
Speaker 6: it can get shitty really fast. And I remember, especially
Speaker 6: later on in my career, I remember telling guys like that,
Speaker 6: we're younger in the squad, Like, uh, you know, I
Speaker 6: don't like what's going on that we could be looking
Speaker 6: around for it, poking halls everywhere, you know, they would
Speaker 6: have lines in there whatever. And I remembering guys like,
Speaker 6: you've got a straight shot from here. If you can't see,
Speaker 6: you've got a straight from here, Like I would just
Speaker 6: leave something with it if I was going somewhere else,
Speaker 6: or keep the lining between your feet.
Speaker 4: You know, even if you're just because a lot of
Speaker 4: times you're.
Speaker 6: Just standing around, you know, as a squad, let's say,
Speaker 6: or a truck, you know, waiting for people to do something,
Speaker 6: if you're waiting for something. And I always used to
Speaker 6: give these like little things like cause, like you say,
Speaker 6: it goes bad in thirty seconds, right, and you don't
Speaker 6: have time to figure that out, like if you're not
Speaker 6: paying attention to those things while they're you know, while
Speaker 6: you can see, you know what I mean, you know,
Speaker 6: you know, thinking about the search rope. But these guys
Speaker 6: had the line already. But the search rope for me
Speaker 6: was it was a non entity for me, you know
Speaker 6: what I mean. That's for later when you have to
Speaker 6: come and search for somebody like to you know, like
Speaker 6: unless you're looking for the fire or something those things
Speaker 6: always get fucked up, you know what I mean. Like
Speaker 6: sounds like a great plan until you try to implement
Speaker 6: it in a you know, a thousand square foot whatever
Speaker 6: the heck it is.
Speaker 4: You know, some big building. It's never worked, and it worked,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: So just it's the little thing that I always felt
Speaker 6: you had to you know, you go to the floor above,
Speaker 6: you take the glass, you look out the window, you
Speaker 6: see where you are, get it, you know, put a
Speaker 6: ladder right here, all right, now, I could do a
Speaker 6: better search when I'm above the fire, right as opposed
Speaker 6: to just getting up there and just searching around and
Speaker 6: you don't know what the You're in the middle of
Speaker 6: the room, and then the thing gets hot and then holy.
Speaker 4: Shit, I don't have a place to get out.
Speaker 6: So you know, even in those types of fires, those
Speaker 6: types of things, I always felt like, you know, and
Speaker 6: and that's what stuck out to me when you were telling,
Speaker 6: you know, not pointing fingers, not doing it thing, but
Speaker 6: you got to be like really aware of especially if
Speaker 6: you're not putting water on the fire, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean. Like that that was to me. If if
Speaker 6: you've got minutes going by and you're not putting any
Speaker 6: water on the fire. That was the first thing I
Speaker 6: said to you, like, are you putting.
Speaker 4: Water on you know? You were like, now we don't,
Speaker 4: We're not putting water on the fire.
Speaker 3: I'm like, are you you.
Speaker 4: Know what do you got? Chief?
Speaker 6: Chief Lea built? What do you got ten ten to
Speaker 6: fifteen minutes nowadays? Like before, it's it's no way of
Speaker 6: if you're not put water on the fire?
Speaker 4: Right good?
Speaker 9: Yeah, doesn't take long.
Speaker 12: So just you know, Chris said, you know, the building
Speaker 12: was built in the nineteen fifties, So think about some.
Speaker 9: Of the newer buildings.
Speaker 12: When we go to these large volume stores and maybe
Speaker 12: let's say we go for alarm ringing right or or
Speaker 12: an order or whatever, and we show up, what do
Speaker 12: we do? We immediately say nothing shown and we ramp
Speaker 12: down the response, but.
Speaker 9: Nothing showing at these these are huge. If you then you.
Speaker 5: Show up somebody, that's about the only time trow.
Speaker 12: Yeah, think about you can have If you have somebody
Speaker 12: showing on arrival, you have a significant fire. So by
Speaker 12: saying that nothing showing on arrival, we could be potentially
Speaker 12: setting us up. If there is a fire, it may
Speaker 12: just not have grown to where we see it because
Speaker 12: it has a lot of volume to fill up before
Speaker 12: we see it. Just an unrelated point, but still a
Speaker 12: good point for this topic.
Speaker 3: I think too that sometimes time could be a funny thing,
Speaker 3: like you could be in there and you think you're
Speaker 3: in there for a long time, but you're really not.
Speaker 3: And there are sometimes that vice versa, right, you kind
Speaker 3: of get the time gets kind of lost, you know sometimes,
Speaker 3: so you may not you may think you're in there
Speaker 3: for a while and you're not. And you may think
Speaker 3: you're in there for a short time, but in the meantime,
Speaker 3: you've been in there for three, four, five, six, seven minutes.
Speaker 3: You don't have water on the fire yet, So very
Speaker 3: hard to keep count of time.
Speaker 11: But what we do in our area is from the
Speaker 11: time of arrival, the dispatch starts a ten minute time
Speaker 11: and then at your calls command every ten minutes, you're
Speaker 11: ten minutes into this twenty minutes.
Speaker 3: That's good for that guy, but for the guy inside searching.
Speaker 11: And has got it, yeah, that command's got to let
Speaker 11: them know that. And that's that's the issue, is that guy, right?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Actually, one of the things real is that that New
Speaker 6: York too, I never realized they do that you know
Speaker 6: time that you know, time of your incident is whatever.
Speaker 4: So I never realized that they do that.
Speaker 7: In New York, time stamps are very common now.
Speaker 5: So one thing I'd like to say, why this? I
Speaker 5: think this book's important. So I find you know, I
Speaker 5: ended up being the training chief for a while and
Speaker 5: doing other things. Right, so I'm teaching and teaching in
Speaker 5: the college system there. That's kind of you go through
Speaker 5: the college system working on your promotion stuff. And and uh,
Speaker 5: I was actually a little bit shocked the first time
Speaker 5: I had a class and in a tactics and strategy
Speaker 5: class for aspiring company officers and maybe one hundred people
Speaker 5: in the class over a couple of nights, and I
Speaker 5: asked a class, hey, all right, how many of you
Speaker 5: were on the job when this happened?
Speaker 3: Nobody?
Speaker 7: Wow.
Speaker 5: And so now it dawns in me this is just
Speaker 5: a story, Like we've reached a point in time where
Speaker 5: this is a story. This is not this is I
Speaker 5: don't have emotional None of these young young guys and
Speaker 5: gals have emotional connection to it. And I'm not saying
Speaker 5: this is bad or anything, but now it's not it's
Speaker 5: not in their head like it's in my head. And
Speaker 5: so the key with books like this and training and
Speaker 5: the stories that you guys are putting on is so
Speaker 5: stinking important that this information gets passed and shared so
Speaker 5: that the folks that are paying attention they can even
Speaker 5: though it wasn't like being there, they can gain pieces
Speaker 5: of knowledge, like like you're talking about Lou for I
Speaker 5: don't there's something that for some reason I don't like this,
Speaker 5: and this is.
Speaker 9: Something about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that that's
Speaker 4: one of the things. I feel like we definitely when when.
Speaker 6: We listen to the podcast and they listen to guys
Speaker 6: like yourself, and they listening to the guys that were interviewing,
Speaker 6: and they get a piece of their life, you know,
Speaker 6: especially at jobs, whether they were at ning to do
Speaker 6: death or whether they were at a job that you know,
Speaker 6: we lost kids or whatever it is, and they tell
Speaker 6: those stories that that I think it is the most
Speaker 6: beneficial a thing that comes out of the show, right
Speaker 6: to fool around and break balls, but in the end,
Speaker 6: you know, it's always about learning. Even myself just listening
Speaker 6: to this, I feel like all this, you know, stuff's
Speaker 6: coming at me and I have all these thoughts as
Speaker 6: if you know, I want to teach somebody and like,
Speaker 6: listen to the I want to listen to the audio.
Speaker 6: I want to you know, and and go through the
Speaker 6: whole process, because if you don't learn, like you just said,
Speaker 6: you're going to make the same mistake, you know, and
Speaker 6: that's that would be a shame, is if you don't
Speaker 6: learn from from the path, right, especially if somebody passed away.
Speaker 9: For sure.
Speaker 12: Why I was so appreciate of you guys hosting so
Speaker 12: many of these certain fires, which is as a companion
Speaker 12: to the book, these podcasts let you hear from and
Speaker 12: get your additional information about these fires, like in real time,
Speaker 12: because you know, through a great degree experiences are transferable.
Speaker 9: You weren't there, but we could learn. There's a lot
Speaker 9: you could learn about it and the different.
Speaker 12: Nuances of the incident that the next time you're out
Speaker 12: the door, you're going to operate more efficiently effectively, which
Speaker 12: would lead to safely, which leads me to I just
Speaker 12: want to talk about one more line that I want
Speaker 12: to quote Chris on in in where you go for
Speaker 12: turn on investment in training and fire ground operations is
Speaker 12: preventing they made it and yeah, knowing knowing, knowing your
Speaker 12: job and doing your job right, and and that's how
Speaker 12: we do that by training.
Speaker 9: So there's a lot of good nuggets in there, but
Speaker 9: those are just two.
Speaker 3: It is when you when you read these stories, their
Speaker 3: first hand stories, not somebody investigating the fire. Who's just
Speaker 3: everybody in your book has been at these fires. So
Speaker 3: second hand knowledge, right, it's awesome. Guy's a smart, loud,
Speaker 3: you know smart, every chief smart.
Speaker 12: From those fire investigations that have participated in that process,
Speaker 12: and not every single thing makes it into the final report, right,
Speaker 12: you know, so we certainly get some different nuances from
Speaker 12: it from people who were there and that firsthand knowledge
Speaker 12: that you know, especially the you know, time is on
Speaker 12: our side that some time has passed, so we can
Speaker 12: really call out what was the true lessons learned from
Speaker 12: from some of these incidents. So, uh yeah, we appreciate,
Speaker 12: uh chiefly do a lot of the uh.
Speaker 6: Fire departments around the large fire departments, if they have
Speaker 6: a lot of duty to death, are they similar to what.
Speaker 4: We do in the f d n Y.
Speaker 9: So that's a good question, but no one does. Now,
Speaker 9: no nobody does the way the FDNY does because.
Speaker 12: Of our resources that we have have big our safety
Speaker 12: command and stuff like that. But I would say that
Speaker 12: the Brett Taba fire is probably the closest thing that
Speaker 12: an organization has done on their own independently. But you know,
Speaker 12: Nios and others that come in and investigat really has
Speaker 12: been a part of several of those investigations.
Speaker 9: But you know, a smaller department doesn't doesn't have.
Speaker 12: The resources to do that, so they rely they rely
Speaker 12: on outside places to do it. But one of the
Speaker 12: things is when we were picking the books to be
Speaker 12: the stories to be in this book, you know we
Speaker 12: did have departments that, to use Chris's terminology, that would
Speaker 12: have preferred to just sweep it under the rug and
Speaker 12: not have anybody learned from it. So the stories that
Speaker 12: are in the book, the people that have have put
Speaker 12: themselves out there to write it. But so appreciative because
Speaker 12: there is no doubt about it that this book, these
Speaker 12: stories save five fighter and prevent injuries and deaths on
Speaker 12: the fire ground.
Speaker 9: There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 6: How many times, Francis, did you did you go over
Speaker 6: the line of duty like in the FDN Y those
Speaker 6: reports did and listen to the and listen to the
Speaker 6: oil like how many countless times?
Speaker 4: Like with the guys right for drill or whatever.
Speaker 6: I mean, it was countless times that we would go
Speaker 6: over that stuff, whether it was Atlantic.
Speaker 4: Avenue or whatever.
Speaker 6: It was all the all the audios when they started
Speaker 6: doing that, we used to drill on that all the time,
Speaker 6: just to you know, if we got new guys to
Speaker 6: the squad or we got new guys to the company,
Speaker 6: we would go over that and over that and over
Speaker 6: that all the time, because you can't forget that, otherwise
Speaker 6: you could repeat it.
Speaker 12: Give us the watch outs right, the things that we
Speaker 12: should be aware of the fact that on the firegrounds
Speaker 12: are among the lowest that there's ever been, and that
Speaker 12: is because we pay attention to what's happening on the
Speaker 12: fire ground and our tactics, our strategies.
Speaker 9: Some of the things that we do it don't do nowadays.
Speaker 12: We've learned from losing firefighters on the fire ground, and
Speaker 12: I've said this a.
Speaker 9: Bunch of times, we've done a great job in doing that.
Speaker 9: We're not we're not there yet.
Speaker 12: We still we have to make sure we're paying attention
Speaker 12: to the fire ground because we want to keep that
Speaker 12: number as low as we possibly can make it. But
Speaker 12: then when you think of how the other stuff. But
Speaker 12: we're still losing fire righters to cancer, to cardiac, to suicide,
Speaker 12: to PTSD all these other things. So we we have
Speaker 12: to keep our eye on the ball on making sure
Speaker 12: we're safe on the fire ground and look at all
Speaker 12: these other ways for losing our brothers and sisters off
Speaker 12: the fire ground and bring the total number.
Speaker 9: Of line of duty deaths down.
Speaker 12: But we've done a great job, and books like this
Speaker 12: and stories like this and experiences like this that we
Speaker 12: pass along continue to keep Hopefully we'll continue to keep
Speaker 12: those numbers well on the fire ground.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 10: And we may have a great point there too, Frank
Speaker 10: that that that we did reach out to certain organizations
Speaker 10: and they said, no, we don't want to participate. Hey,
Speaker 10: we really don't want to talk about it. Things like that,
Speaker 10: And that also ties into the fact that a lot
Speaker 10: of people don't realize NIOSH is not a requirement. A
Speaker 10: department can refuse NIOSH. And there are a couple of
Speaker 10: very significant line of duty deaths that's the last couple
Speaker 10: of years where the Carvin said, no, we don't need NIOSH.
Speaker 9: We're fine.
Speaker 7: Really, wow, crazy, there's so much to learn from those events.
Speaker 4: Why would you do that? I don't know that.
Speaker 7: I couldn't imagine. I can't imagine why.
Speaker 8: Like I said, there's so much to learn from those
Speaker 8: events and things like it would be talking about just
Speaker 8: so much information that needs to be passed along, but
Speaker 8: it doesn't happen again, or maybe stop it from happening again.
Speaker 10: It's between that ego and what Brunos said. The attorney
Speaker 10: is going to find out anyway.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Bruno is one one of his more famous quotes,
Speaker 5: his egos eat brains, and that uh works right here.
Speaker 11: I thank you.
Speaker 9: I like that.
Speaker 4: I like that. Uh well, thank you, Chris, thank.
Speaker 5: You, thank you my pleasure man, I greatly appreciate it.
Speaker 5: I did what you guys do, And any chance to
Speaker 5: tell this story, I'm excited.
Speaker 3: So how many we killed?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 3: How we got down? We got about eight? Right? Six
Speaker 3: or eight?
Speaker 11: Uh?
Speaker 9: Yeah? Really asked me that in an email last week?
Speaker 9: How many? And I didn't get back to him. Yet.
Speaker 9: We've done.
Speaker 12: We've done a bunch of Chris, thank you. Now we're
Speaker 12: doing another one tonight, aren't we we are?
Speaker 3: So you guys are ready, I'll give you my story.
Speaker 5: Chris, you walk out, I'd be happy to stand around.
Speaker 3: Heck you so I'm gonna start off by saying, I
Speaker 3: know Mike Milner is in the chat and Mike was
Speaker 3: at that far, So Mike, if you have anything to add,
Speaker 3: feel free. That day I got to work with so
Speaker 3: many greats. Captain Murphy was my captain that day. But
Speaker 3: in rescue for you had John Gain, Mikey Milner, Brian
Speaker 3: hickey Ford, a lot of great guys. I only had
Speaker 3: seven years on the job at that time. It was
Speaker 3: a fahie, right. It was Father's Day, June seventeen, two
Speaker 3: thousand and one. It was a really hot day and
Speaker 3: we had a fairly young crew because Father's Day usually
Speaker 3: you left the guys who had kids get off and
Speaker 3: you had worked. So it was a Sunday we were doing.
Speaker 3: We had the kitchen on Sundays right roofe. We're in
Speaker 3: the middle of the doing the kitchen and has Matt
Speaker 3: run came in. Has Matt one down in a storia.
Speaker 3: So the squad is the has Matt tech backup to
Speaker 3: has Matt. So it was the Captain John Flynn working
Speaker 3: and has Matt. Pete Brennan was working detail over there,
Speaker 3: Timmy Reagan, a couple other guys and in the squad.
Speaker 3: It was Captain Murphy, Adam Rand we lost on nine
Speaker 3: to eleven. Was driving in the back was Timmy Garretty
Speaker 3: had the nozzle. John Berna at the backup I had
Speaker 3: to hook.
Speaker 4: And Timmy Murphy.
Speaker 3: Timmy Murphy, thank you. I had the control. So the
Speaker 3: run comes in and funny enough, Captain Flint says John
Speaker 3: to Dennis Murphy, this it looks like it's nothing over there.
Speaker 3: It's a supermarket with the smell of an odor of
Speaker 3: gas or something, and he says, we'll just take it in,
Speaker 3: and Cat Murphy is not. It's our box. We're taking
Speaker 3: it in. So we have two pieces. We have the
Speaker 3: first piece and we have a second piece has Matt Tender,
Speaker 3: and the two guys driving that has Matt Tender were
Speaker 3: myself and Timmy Murphy. We turned out to go down
Speaker 3: towards the supermarket, and all the companies right in that area,
Speaker 3: all the first two up because were at the supermarket,
Speaker 3: and Uh I had worked in Latin one sixteen for
Speaker 3: a while, so I knew a bunch of the guys
Speaker 3: who will first do there, and a couple of them
Speaker 3: were over. We had to actually edit this a little
Speaker 3: chiefly right in the book. A couple of guys were
Speaker 3: breaking my shoes. Just got Joey Vascilla was breaking my
Speaker 3: shoes about the bread wagon. He's like, what do you
Speaker 3: got some loaves of bread for us? Coobs, I'm like, no,
Speaker 3: I got, I got your sister in the back, ye son.
Speaker 9: The second pie. Goodness it tip this bad boy over
Speaker 9: going around.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it was a bread wagon. It looked
Speaker 3: like a bread wagon.
Speaker 4: Grimaldi like the whole thing was gonna.
Speaker 3: Hostess cupcakes, bobile, you know what I mean, stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So as we're pulling up, sure enough, Chap Flint says,
Speaker 3: we got it. You guys can take up. And I
Speaker 3: remember making two rights. We made one right both of us,
Speaker 3: was the story Bullvard twenty first Street, and another right.
Speaker 3: And I turned to Timmy Murphy and I said to him,
Speaker 3: then I smell fire something. There's a fire around here somewhere.
Speaker 3: Two seconds later, some woman and a carriage came running out,
Speaker 3: fled this down and said to Captain Murphy, I think
Speaker 3: the hardware store his here is on fire. So Captain
Speaker 3: Murphy jumps off. He says, Cooobs, go ditch the second
Speaker 3: piece up this block, get out of the way. Adam,
Speaker 3: take the hydrant over here. So, and this is also
Speaker 3: a common theme you're going to see here that I
Speaker 3: say all the time. Tactically, you could do every single
Speaker 3: thing right, and this job could still kill you and
Speaker 3: humble you in a second. In a second. So Captain
Speaker 3: Murphy jumps off, he goes I see him go in
Speaker 3: the it's a hardware store with apartments above. He goes
Speaker 3: up there. Then I see him go around the back.
Speaker 3: Radios to Adam to transmit to ten seventy five. We've
Speaker 3: got a fire in looks like the basement of this
Speaker 3: hardware store. Now it was one story, but in the
Speaker 3: back it had that ramp going down to the basement.
Speaker 3: So evidently what had happened and some kids were playing
Speaker 3: in the back and they knocked over a candy gas
Speaker 3: lean and went under the door and made its way
Speaker 3: to the water heater, and when the water heater kicked on,
Speaker 3: the fire started. So we were there by ourselves after
Speaker 3: we transmitted to ten seventy five, because all the companies
Speaker 3: were still at the Hazbat Run stuck on the halsback box.
Speaker 3: So we were there for a good amount of time.
Speaker 3: And I believe my kid chime and I believe Rescue
Speaker 3: four was in Manhattan doing something, so we were there
Speaker 3: for quite a long time. But we did, like I said,
Speaker 3: everything tactically correct. So we acted as an engine and
Speaker 3: a truck because there was no trucks. The engines on
Speaker 3: the scene. We cut the gates, rolldowns, we pulled down
Speaker 3: the rolldowns. We pulled off two lines, one for us,
Speaker 3: one for the next for the third d company coming in.
Speaker 3: We forced the door, We charged the line, got to
Speaker 3: the top of the stairs, and just as that was happening,
Speaker 3: other companies started to come in. There was a light
Speaker 3: smoke condition on the on the first floor. Nothing to
Speaker 3: worry about. Cat Murphy said to us, which is correct.
Speaker 3: We're gonna take the stop top of the stairs. We're
Speaker 3: gonna protect the guys down there, and we're gonna let
Speaker 3: the next guys take the They can get the fire.
Speaker 3: I can hear it crackling right behind the door in
Speaker 3: the back. Other companies come in, and the problem was
Speaker 3: that they could not force that rear door. There was
Speaker 3: a steel door that had that igle eye and that
Speaker 3: goes down across the back door, and they could not
Speaker 3: force that rear door. So this is where I was
Speaker 3: listening to Chief Stewart, I'm saying so many things familiar
Speaker 3: to his fire. I was like, oh my god, that happen.
Speaker 3: The same thing happened here.
Speaker 9: Man.
Speaker 3: So just like Louis has said before, trust your gut right,
Speaker 3: because when the first two companies come in, what are
Speaker 3: they doing? What do they want to do? Rough squad,
Speaker 3: get down the stairs. Squad, get down the stairs. Squad,
Speaker 3: get down the stairs. But when Captain Murphy opened up
Speaker 3: the door, the entire rickety old wooden staircase was lined
Speaker 3: with tiny propane bottles and nails and screws, and maybe
Speaker 3: there was a walkway about this wide that was the
Speaker 3: hardware store, tiny walkway. He's like, I got a bad feeling.
Speaker 3: We're gonna do what we're supposed to. Sit here, protect
Speaker 3: the stairs. We're gonna let them take the door in
Speaker 3: the back. So as time goes on, it seems like
Speaker 3: it's taken a long time. Cat Murphy opens up the
Speaker 3: door and we got this greenish blue flame that comes
Speaker 3: jetting out of the stairs. Quickly closes the door and
Speaker 3: he's like, I could see him saying that he's feeling
Speaker 3: he's correct, like, we're gonna stay here. We're waiting. We're
Speaker 3: waiting and they cannot take it. So he tells me,
Speaker 3: you can't do me a favor, grabbed the hook and
Speaker 3: they had all those plate glass old windows in the front.
Speaker 3: Take all the windows, which is what the chief was saying, right,
Speaker 3: take the windows. That's all we know is vent right,
Speaker 3: even though we don't have water on the fire yet,
Speaker 3: it was starting to get shitty down there. You had
Speaker 3: to get down to your knees. We still weren't on
Speaker 3: we still weren't out on our cylinders, so we were
Speaker 3: kind of cheating a little bit here and there. Took
Speaker 3: the glass, and now we had the pressure of other
Speaker 3: companies trying to get us to go down the stairs.
Speaker 3: And at one point, I remember this like it was yesterday,
Speaker 3: Cat Murphy took a guy's face piece, pulled it off
Speaker 3: and said who the fuck is this? And he said
Speaker 3: who he was? He is, Shut the fuck up. This
Speaker 3: is where we're staying right now. Boom puts her face
Speaker 3: peep back on a guy's face cut and say boom.
Speaker 3: So at one point it was taking so long they
Speaker 3: tried the Hurst tool in the back. They could not
Speaker 3: get the door in the rear, so the chief chiefly
Speaker 3: who was the chief in sock. He was a really
Speaker 3: big guy. He died on nine to eleven. No, he
Speaker 3: was a little guy. This guy was a mountain of
Speaker 3: a man. He was a big Dudemranue. So he comes
Speaker 3: in and I know how big he was because he
Speaker 3: kept stepping on the back of my leg because he
Speaker 3: couldn't see me, And like, man, that's a big dude.
Speaker 3: So he says to Captain Murphy, listen, they're not gonna
Speaker 3: be able to get to the back door of you guys.
Speaker 3: Have you guys used your air You're gonna have to
Speaker 3: make a push downstairs. So Captain says to everybody, check
Speaker 3: your bottles, let me know what you got. Everybody's like,
Speaker 3: we all got full bottles, cap we're ready to go.
Speaker 3: So at that point, I remember turning on my bottle
Speaker 3: and I remember Brian Hickey yelling like I smell gas,
Speaker 3: I smell fin and I smell gas lean something. And
Speaker 3: as soon as he said that, it felt like somebody
Speaker 3: had flipped the switch and you were sitting behind an
Speaker 3: airplane jet engine. It was just like boom, and the
Speaker 3: floor came up, everybody came down, and everything went black.
Speaker 3: And if there's one thing that I could share with
Speaker 3: everybody that you think you would never do. But I,
Speaker 3: unfortunately I am ashamed to admit it. But from cheating,
Speaker 3: like like you were saying, from cheating on it, I
Speaker 3: was felty. It felt a little disoriented. So when the
Speaker 3: blast happens, I felt even more disoriented. It was pitch black,
Speaker 3: couldn't see nothing, a lot of screaming, a lot of
Speaker 3: yelling to give the may day. I actually ripped my
Speaker 3: face piece off to give the may day because I
Speaker 3: was in a sheer panic takeover and God forbid, you
Speaker 3: know that had been an atmosphere and I'd take two
Speaker 3: breaths and I'm down. You know, you have to try
Speaker 3: to no matter how hectic or crazy or insane it gets,
Speaker 3: you got to keep your wits about you. Because that
Speaker 3: was absolutely the wrong move to make. So where we
Speaker 3: came in now, I couldn't see the front anymore, but
Speaker 3: I could see a tiny, tiny little circle of light,
Speaker 3: and I can hear some voices, and I just started
Speaker 3: crawling slowly towards the voices, and then I couldn't crawl
Speaker 3: no more. And believe it or not, has about one
Speaker 3: came to the box and I had guys as much
Speaker 3: as we make fun of the guys and has Matt.
Speaker 3: I had, Dennis Scauzo, Timmy Reagan, and I don't remember who. Oh,
Speaker 3: George Howe actually dragged me out. And when I got
Speaker 3: out there was Captain Murphy laying down on the side.
Speaker 3: He had torn his acl. John Bernard tore's acl, Timmy
Speaker 3: broke his ankle, and I broke my kneecap and we
Speaker 3: actually came out exposure to the entire wall was gone,
Speaker 3: came down and when I came outside, hold out for
Speaker 3: a minute there with Gonzo. So if you see where
Speaker 3: it says approximate location of the stairway in the building,
Speaker 3: that's where the stairway was that we were at the
Speaker 3: top of. Now people keep they kept asking him, did
Speaker 3: anybody how how did fay he get to the basement?
Speaker 3: Had to fay he get to the basement. I remember
Speaker 3: seeing him. I went out to take the windows. I
Speaker 3: remember seeing him coming out from one of the apartments
Speaker 3: above and I can I can't remember exactly, but I
Speaker 3: vaguely remember seeing him at the top of the stairs.
Speaker 3: Victim one and two is where the is Harry Ford
Speaker 3: and John downing from one sixty three company. Yep, they were.
Speaker 3: They were working on the windows when I went out there,
Speaker 3: I believe, Mike. Mike can tell if that's correct. And
Speaker 3: the the door, I thought it was the windows. They
Speaker 3: were trying to get them, and the entire side of
Speaker 3: the building fell on them, and uh. As I came out,
Speaker 3: I also saw the sign for the building. The actual
Speaker 3: side for the building was on the ground, and I
Speaker 3: can see feet sticking out of it. And as we
Speaker 3: came down, the guy's like, there's a guy under there's
Speaker 3: a guy under there. And I wound up being that guy,
Speaker 3: Joe Vascilla, who I told him his sister was in
Speaker 3: the back of a bread van. Believe or not. That's
Speaker 3: how crazy that is. They pulled the rest of us
Speaker 3: out and the thing just took off like like a
Speaker 3: tinder box. I remember they tried to stretch lines in there,
Speaker 3: and maybe about I'm gonna say two minutes in for
Speaker 3: being out, maybe three minutes a little longer. I could hear.
Speaker 3: I don't know. If he had the ions, Mike, you
Speaker 3: would know. It said the rescue irons to rescue. I'm
Speaker 3: under the stairs, come get me, And that was faith,
Speaker 3: he remembered. I remember it was faith. He remember, I
Speaker 3: think he had the ions and then he put out
Speaker 3: wait a little longer, and he said it again, rescue,
Speaker 3: ions to rescue. I'm under the stairs, come and get me.
Speaker 3: And that see Mike says, he helped get Joe out. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that we're working on Joe. He was underneath and that's
Speaker 3: the only thing that said. And he got some some back,
Speaker 3: was a little some of the balls in his back
Speaker 3: and crushed and stuff like that. But he survived because
Speaker 3: the sign fell on him and the debris fell on
Speaker 3: top of the side and he wasn't crushed by the
Speaker 3: falling debris. So like in the hindsight, I said, I
Speaker 3: feel like we did everything correct. We dropped the two lines,
Speaker 3: we took the roll down gates, we stood at the
Speaker 3: top of the stairs. And no matter what, you can
Speaker 3: do everything right, but it can come get you at
Speaker 3: any time.
Speaker 9: Man.
Speaker 3: Mike was on the second floor.
Speaker 4: Yep, I remember that. I remember that. That whole thing
Speaker 4: guy's talking about.
Speaker 6: You know, Brian was in the squad with us, and
Speaker 6: then he transferred off to the rescue. I guess, you know,
Speaker 6: a year or so into it, and uh, they were
Speaker 6: saying how calm he was just talking and saying, you know,
Speaker 6: I'm under the stair, you know this and that, and
Speaker 6: the guys were trying and trying and trying to get
Speaker 6: down the stairs, uh, to get to him.
Speaker 4: But it was just burning too hot down there, and
Speaker 4: I guess they weren't putting. You know, I couldn't get
Speaker 4: water on the fire.
Speaker 3: I know Ray down yet I had heard Ray Downey
Speaker 3: had a line.
Speaker 4: If Danny I help, I help.
Speaker 10: Showed up with his dad John and the voting from home.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and uh, he tried to get down there and
Speaker 6: and then it just went silent, and uh, you know,
Speaker 6: you think to yourself, my god, what the hell was
Speaker 6: going to guy's mind?
Speaker 3: Just like you know what Roof opposite to me? Like
Speaker 3: I told you, I was in a parent fakey because
Speaker 3: he was seasoned. He had the confidence that his guys
Speaker 3: were going to get him. He was calm as a cucumber,
Speaker 3: like rescue for iron. I'm under the stairs, come get
Speaker 3: me man, just like that.
Speaker 7: Like, yeah, that was in that.
Speaker 8: I keep trying to get a coverage over the dateline
Speaker 8: story they did for that whole year for.
Speaker 7: The ft and one.
Speaker 8: If you guys remember mm hmm, that's where it interview
Speaker 8: came into play. It's again, it's not one of those
Speaker 8: things gives me this goosebumps.
Speaker 3: But what happened with that? Remember it was when the
Speaker 3: building went over, just the force of the blast set
Speaker 3: the chief. I think he was already mess bound and
Speaker 3: everybody was just disoriented. It was just you know, so
Speaker 3: there was like total pandemonium outside. Nobody had control at
Speaker 3: that time.
Speaker 6: I mean I remember talking to Catin Murphy about that
Speaker 6: when I was getting promoted. For years we talked about that,
Speaker 6: and then when I got promoted. You know, how do
Speaker 6: you make that call?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 6: What's he's standing at the top of the stair right,
Speaker 6: we're in the FDNY. We all go down the basement
Speaker 6: he was in. You couldn't pick a better company in
Speaker 6: the companies he was in with thirteen one, seventy six
Speaker 6: rescued too squad to it right?
Speaker 4: Let get another one to eleven. I mean, the guy's been.
Speaker 6: To season five and he trusted his gut that something
Speaker 6: wasn't right to go down there. You know, had they
Speaker 6: gotten the door or had it been it easier to
Speaker 6: get in the basement, we probably wouldn't even be talking
Speaker 6: about this fire, you know what I mean? Like it
Speaker 6: was just the fact that we talked about with the
Speaker 6: with the the chief that it just kept going and
Speaker 6: going and going and going, and whenever that happens, it's
Speaker 6: just nothing that happens. Man, It's just it's just not good.
Speaker 3: You said, Lyad feeling. Had we gone down there, I
Speaker 3: think he would have took us the first two company,
Speaker 3: first two truck and rescue Ford down the stairs and
Speaker 3: we would have lost time any more. Guys, I truly
Speaker 3: believe that because they were popping off. The bottles were
Speaker 3: popping off. Every time we opened the door. We can
Speaker 3: hear the propane bottles exploding. So you know, we would
Speaker 3: have led everybody down there. And I tell him all
Speaker 3: the time because he he kicks himself a little bit,
Speaker 3: but Captain old time, you saved my life.
Speaker 7: Man.
Speaker 3: You said you saved at least three companies lives that
Speaker 3: day because you felt something of you, trusted your gut
Speaker 3: and you and not only that, companies were pressuring them
Speaker 3: to get down the stairs, you know, get down the stairs, squad,
Speaker 3: get down the stairs.
Speaker 6: Well that's what I always felt like, as a boss,
Speaker 6: how do you how do you fight that?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 6: Because in the end you could succumb to pressure right,
Speaker 6: like you can't and people do right. So how did
Speaker 6: you know he trusted his experience, right, He trusted himself
Speaker 6: And and you know, I always felt like you had
Speaker 6: to trust your gut. And that's where that all came
Speaker 6: from when we were you know, as as we got
Speaker 6: more and more time on the job is and I
Speaker 6: used to teach that to my guys. You know, trust
Speaker 6: your gut. There's a real your body is telling you
Speaker 6: this is no.
Speaker 9: Why no?
Speaker 6: You know, your mind is seeing something, your eyes are
Speaker 6: seeing something. You have to trust that and you have
Speaker 6: to make sure that you should act on right.
Speaker 10: If Louisa mentioned something, that's that's the toughness or the
Speaker 10: guts of the officer to say no or yes or whatever.
Speaker 10: Mike mcnamie and Worcester right, nobody else is going in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another one great point they wanted.
Speaker 11: They wanted to hang them at that. You say, we
Speaker 11: saved all the guys lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no doubt. That's a great example, Billy, really
Speaker 3: it is. Another thing I wanted to bring up was
Speaker 3: Pete Brennan who lost on nine to eleven. He was
Speaker 3: working in Hasmat and one thing I do remember is
Speaker 3: that Pete was off of running around a building and
Speaker 3: they were calling him because hasn't got another run to
Speaker 3: another borrow and like, Pete Brennan, come back to the
Speaker 3: hazmat unit right now.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: And then when the building exploded, Pete got on the
Speaker 3: handy talkie and Cole for two rescues. We have multiple
Speaker 3: members down. I mean you can find it on YouTube somewhere.
Speaker 3: The transmission cools a Q company.
Speaker 9: The other time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was guy on the job, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, Like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the same time as me seven years. So
Speaker 3: one thing I don't understand, though, I don't know if
Speaker 3: you have any insight on this, chief, Why did they
Speaker 3: knock down that building immediately?
Speaker 9: I don't know why they knocked it down so quickly.
Speaker 9: That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, sounds like man, Yeah, I mean sounds like a
Speaker 8: cover up, certainly.
Speaker 12: I mean there were other fires right where the buildings
Speaker 12: were removed pretty quickly.
Speaker 6: Banke Avenue Atlantic was the one at seems like we've
Speaker 6: gotten a better handle on that.
Speaker 9: Was that that doesn't happen uh anymore?
Speaker 13: Right, Oh kind of kissed me off to uh, you know,
Speaker 13: I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but at least to something
Speaker 13: that you say to yourself, why would they tear this
Speaker 13: billy downy three days after the fire?
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 6: I was just gonna say, just to go back to
Speaker 6: that quick, like stay to yourself. You're a chauffeur and
Speaker 6: you're outside the building, and you know, looking at inside
Speaker 6: the building. You know, you've been to jobs where you're
Speaker 6: standing outside You're like, damn that fucking shitty in there, man,
Speaker 6: you know you're out side, and then the next thing you.
Speaker 5: Know, you know, you know it just right there, you're
Speaker 5: looking at that like you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like God, damn, you know what.
Speaker 6: Uh to have those guys get killed outside, you know
Speaker 6: and get crushed, you know, it's just especially those two guys, you.
Speaker 4: Know, Harry Ford, that's silliness, you know what I mean.
Speaker 12: But uh, like you said, even the guys that you
Speaker 12: mentioned on your you know, working in has Been and
Speaker 12: Squad threey eight, like Alden names that we've heard, you know, knowing,
Speaker 12: you know, knowing them.
Speaker 9: Mike, I was working. I was a firefighter in Squad
Speaker 9: seventy at the time.
Speaker 12: I was scheduled to work that Father's Day, but I
Speaker 12: had children and Celia Thompson or could swap the day
Speaker 12: for the night for.
Speaker 9: Me, So she wound up working.
Speaker 12: But Mikela, thanks for chiming in and giving us a
Speaker 12: little bit of a little bit more to the story.
Speaker 3: And stop at my booth like on Saturday. You know
Speaker 3: what we're gonna do. Give you up.
Speaker 5: Hey, Coobs, you worked a while after this, So what
Speaker 5: was different for you when when you worked, because this
Speaker 5: wasn't the last time you went on this type of round.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I left this pot out I forgot
Speaker 3: because we're talking about season, and I remember getting back,
Speaker 3: came back from the what's it the burn Center, First
Speaker 3: Avenue or whatever it was. I had a couple of
Speaker 3: burns on my back and I come into the firehouse
Speaker 3: and right away Hank senior man grabs me and I'm
Speaker 3: beside myself. I just told me the fay he died.
Speaker 3: I'm crying and I'm all upset, and he said, and
Speaker 3: it didn't make sense until like tonight when you guys
Speaker 3: said it. It was so amazing that you said. He says,
Speaker 3: you know, this may not make you a more senior firefighter,
Speaker 3: but it will make you a more seasoned firefighter, and
Speaker 3: I understand what he meant at the time, but now
Speaker 3: I kind of I understand what he was saying absolutely.
Speaker 3: And to answer your question, I had had to get
Speaker 3: back in a hurry.
Speaker 7: Chief.
Speaker 3: I came back and my Lieutenant Garry was saying, don't
Speaker 3: come back yet. Don't come back it, don't come back yet,
Speaker 3: stay out, stay out for six months. And I was like,
Speaker 3: if I don't come back now and get back in there,
Speaker 3: I'm afraid I'm gonna sit here and think about it,
Speaker 3: and I'm not gonna be able to do it mentally anymore.
Speaker 3: I'm not. So I needed to get back and I
Speaker 3: got back just in time for nine to eleven when
Speaker 3: I was supposed to work, so you know, you go figure.
Speaker 3: But I needed to get back and get back.
Speaker 4: What the brant came back from that job and he
Speaker 4: got killed in nine to eleven.
Speaker 3: Right, he didn't tap out, I don't think because he
Speaker 3: was the chauffeur.
Speaker 4: Oh no.
Speaker 3: But for me, I had to prove that I could
Speaker 3: get back on the rig. And no, I'll be all right,
Speaker 3: you know, because I was. I was shaking. I'm not
Speaker 3: afraid to admit it. I was shaken. By the job.
Speaker 3: So once I got back, I got my first run,
Speaker 3: get my first job out of the way. I think
Speaker 3: I did the right thing by coming back. I wouldn't
Speaker 3: sit home and I oh go on like duty wasn't
Speaker 3: having it. I had to get back in there.
Speaker 12: I appreciate about that, right, because it's not just the
Speaker 12: it's it's not just the brothers or sisters that we
Speaker 12: lose that get killed in the line of duty. It's
Speaker 12: the it's those that get injured. It's those that are
Speaker 12: there on the scene. When something like that happens, there
Speaker 12: is such a the impact is not isolated. It's far
Speaker 12: reaching and generational, and when you're involved in it, you know, listen.
Speaker 12: It's why Loo says, we drill on these, we train
Speaker 12: on these, to make sure that we pound the message.
Speaker 9: Into you because it's important.
Speaker 12: Because think about it, we could go back if we
Speaker 12: could change the trajectory one time and make it where
Speaker 12: a department, a community, whoever doesn't have to go through this,
Speaker 12: you know, because it's not just the people that get killed,
Speaker 12: it's everybody else that is fighting to get back to
Speaker 12: work full duty.
Speaker 3: Murphy and ended Chaptain Murphy's career. He could come back
Speaker 3: at ended a couple of careers.
Speaker 9: So yeah, that's just that's why I come from that, right,
Speaker 9: I see that. I was just thinking of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 9: Right, we want to get back.
Speaker 3: That's why I you know, I kid you about this,
Speaker 3: but if this saves one light life, it's worth every
Speaker 3: single page that's printed in here, man, And I think
Speaker 3: it's going to save more than one life. That's why
Speaker 3: I truly believe in this book. I'm not just greasing
Speaker 3: you either. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 8: Book, these conversations that we have, we will make a
Speaker 8: difference with these guys.
Speaker 11: Appreciate that.
Speaker 3: So I appreciate guys coming on here and telling their
Speaker 3: stories too. I love it.
Speaker 11: We got a couple more we're going to work on
Speaker 11: as well.
Speaker 3: I want them all, Billy, give me them all. There's
Speaker 3: a lessons to learn.
Speaker 4: Another books, got.
Speaker 3: Another one coming.
Speaker 4: He's retired.
Speaker 9: There's nothing there's nothing being done right now. But I'll
Speaker 9: tell you what, man.
Speaker 12: The fire service to brothers and sisters, Billy and myself,
Speaker 12: we exchange emails when we get people either sending us
Speaker 12: resources or that we may not be aware of for
Speaker 12: a fire or you know, we hope that Chris Stewart
Speaker 12: and with the class that he went through with there's
Speaker 12: deliverables for that that we could share those on the
Speaker 12: website stuff like that.
Speaker 9: But we also have people that are telling us.
Speaker 12: I've said several stories and so has Billy about hey,
Speaker 12: if you do another thirty fires, this this is a
Speaker 12: fire that you should feature people offering to write the chapters.
Speaker 12: So man, the brother and Sisterhood of the Fire Service
Speaker 12: never disappointments.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Frank and I are are going to be doing
Speaker 10: a four hour class on the book at fdi C
Speaker 10: as well, either Monday or Tuesday.
Speaker 4: I forget which day, but sure's Tuesday.
Speaker 7: So when I get there, you.
Speaker 11: Know, yeah, look at the comment from Mike that's dead
Speaker 11: on right.
Speaker 6: I'm sure it's just absolutely deal with that, Yeah, I said,
Speaker 6: I guess who knew?
Speaker 11: Who knew ninety days later what you would go through
Speaker 11: and what the nature?
Speaker 9: Right?
Speaker 3: We thought that was a big deal.
Speaker 8: And then then the other plane crash that they following
Speaker 8: me that in the two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: Was yeah, November, Yeah, how was that that one too?
Speaker 7: Queens that went down the rockaways man.
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 8: But uh, switch gears a little bit really quick question.
Speaker 8: You guys said that the book is going crazy getting
Speaker 8: a lot of feedback. Is there anything in particular that
Speaker 8: standing out as far as feedback, not just people wanting
Speaker 8: to contribute to it, but is there any information of
Speaker 8: as far as an impact that that's making anybody, Any
Speaker 8: relatable stories that you could share real quick?
Speaker 9: So I think there's overview story that I would just
Speaker 9: say is that.
Speaker 12: We know that there's departments that are that have purchased
Speaker 12: one for all of their offices. We know of the
Speaker 12: apartments that said they're going to put it on a
Speaker 12: promotional exam. We know like what Chris Stewart is doing
Speaker 12: with the book where he goes and he and he
Speaker 12: divides chapters out to the people, and that's what we want, right,
Speaker 12: So the book is a starting point. It's not the
Speaker 12: end all be all of the fires. In fact, we
Speaker 12: were very careful, right because when you write a book
Speaker 12: in hindsight about fires that killed some of our brothers,
Speaker 12: you walk a fine line, right, correct of how.
Speaker 9: You portray that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 12: So there's a lot so some of the takeaways that
Speaker 12: we have mentioned this in some of the other other
Speaker 12: podcasts that we've done with you where we could put
Speaker 12: the Nios top five well communications in every single one
Speaker 12: of these But if we don't make it where we
Speaker 12: weave a tapestry within the thirty fires of all these
Speaker 12: different things. So I don't want to have the same
Speaker 12: takeaway in thirty fires or ten different fires.
Speaker 9: So and this one, Chris, Chris Stewart's fire is a
Speaker 9: great example of that. We took the lesson, We took.
Speaker 12: That fire from twenty some odd years ago right and
Speaker 12: applied what we know today to it and came up
Speaker 12: with takeaway that were not available in two thousand and
Speaker 12: one in two thousand and two, so we have the
Speaker 12: benefit of that time to be able to pull out
Speaker 12: these takeaways. If we wrote this book in two thousand
Speaker 12: and five, the takeaways for Chris Stewart's fire would be
Speaker 12: significantly different than the takeaways that are today. And that's
Speaker 12: the case of several of these fires. But again, that
Speaker 12: tapestry of the thirty fire is blended together. Taken all
Speaker 12: of the takeaways from each of these fires, we'll give
Speaker 12: you a layer to drill on for the entire year
Speaker 12: without duplicating too many times too many of the lessons
Speaker 12: that are learned.
Speaker 9: And when we get feedback about individual individuals who read
Speaker 9: the book or and they say, well, there's a common
Speaker 9: theme among most of.
Speaker 12: Them, or a fire investigator says, you know, you should
Speaker 12: have hit more on this point. I get it, but
Speaker 12: we hit it on another fire, and we hit it
Speaker 12: on a couple living fires.
Speaker 9: But I'll tell you what, I'm led.
Speaker 12: By the feedback when we have people that have investigated
Speaker 12: a dozen or more fires and they're telling us that
Speaker 12: they loved the book, that they love the lessons in it,
Speaker 12: and that it's about.
Speaker 9: Time, you know.
Speaker 12: Really, that's you know, and the feedback from family members
Speaker 12: and others that have been at fires and said, you
Speaker 12: really really hit the mark. From the feedback seeing the
Speaker 12: brothers and sisters that are on here that are learning,
Speaker 12: that's that's what it's about. Billyon and myself talk often
Speaker 12: this book was a laborer love and as we've got
Speaker 12: to know, you know, and Billy, because he's investigated so
Speaker 12: many fires and because what he's done with the Secret List,
Speaker 12: he has a vast network and knew a lot of
Speaker 12: the incident.
Speaker 9: Commander is going into this, so I knew and knew
Speaker 9: some of the people.
Speaker 12: That were going to be on it, and just the
Speaker 12: overwhelmingwhelming willingness of people to come on and share.
Speaker 9: Their story, because there's there's always.
Speaker 12: A risk when you come on and do this, but
Speaker 12: that someone won't like a word just said or the
Speaker 12: way you portrayed your fire or something. But you know,
Speaker 12: we best honor off Ball and by remembering the lessons
Speaker 12: that they provide and by reinforcing them and making sure
Speaker 12: that we have done every single thing we could to
Speaker 12: make sure that that type of situation never happens and
Speaker 12: somebody doesn't have to go through that. As Koobs you
Speaker 12: said it before, right. To be able to save one life,
Speaker 12: prevent one injury, then the effort is worth it.
Speaker 10: Ye pulls up at a fire tonight that's at a
Speaker 10: grocery store and they listen to the show tonight, maybe
Speaker 10: we're going to make that bridge for them and make
Speaker 10: them understand what happened at.
Speaker 3: Plant to Seed.
Speaker 7: Just plant the seed and watch a girl baby. You
Speaker 7: know what?
Speaker 3: Rough, I think that the Chief Leave is working on
Speaker 3: being put on the FDNY Mount Rushmore. I think he
Speaker 3: wants to mugg the Mount Rushmore the FDNY. Can we
Speaker 3: make that.
Speaker 4: Happen right next right next to Croker, He's gonna get Croaker?
Speaker 3: Who else you got got Croaker?
Speaker 9: Martin? I just want to be on leaves.
Speaker 5: Back and say did you let me down?
Speaker 12: I just want to be on the Getting Swalty Experience
Speaker 12: podcast Mount Rushmore and so.
Speaker 3: You're on You're on it right now.
Speaker 9: I mean, look, I gotta be on here ten times? Now?
Speaker 9: How many times I came in here today?
Speaker 5: I thought this was another Frankly retirement show.
Speaker 4: There he was, was trying to another guy throwing darks.
Speaker 12: Actually, everybody, wait, you held on for that for an
Speaker 12: hour and a half.
Speaker 3: Everybody leads, Let's let's play one more commercial before we
Speaker 3: get out of here. Guys, I know it certain affiliated.
Speaker 7: We might know somebody who knows affiliated. Here we go.
Speaker 1: The First Responders Center for Excellence is a not for
Speaker 1: profit organization dedicated to protecting their lives and livelihoods.
Speaker 3: Of first responders.
Speaker 1: Their education and research initiatives aim to bring greater awareness
Speaker 1: and understanding the challenges to the health, safety, and well
Speaker 1: being of firefighters, EMS personnel, and other first responders too.
Speaker 1: They are an affiliate of the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation.
Speaker 3: All Right, we talk about mental health all the time.
Speaker 3: We talked about it a little bit tonight. By all means,
Speaker 3: it's available. It's not like it used to be with
Speaker 3: something to be ashamed of. But I'm going to add
Speaker 3: one extra layer to that. So all these things that
Speaker 3: you go through, all these things that you try to compartmentalize,
Speaker 3: all these things that go on in your head, and
Speaker 3: the horrific things that you see, you may not think it,
Speaker 3: but you bring it home sometimes to your wife and kids.
Speaker 3: So I know the FDNY offers services for kids, on
Speaker 3: for your wife. So don't hesitate to bring them in
Speaker 3: and let them talk about because you may be you know,
Speaker 3: laying stuff on them that they don't know how to
Speaker 3: handle you, maybe, you know, shoveling off some of the
Speaker 3: ship onto them, and they need to talk to somebody.
Speaker 3: So I know it's available in New York, and I'm
Speaker 3: sure it's available in other cities. So get yourself checked out.
Speaker 3: Bring the wife, bring the kids, Bring Louis, bring chiefly,
Speaker 3: bring everybody. Don't be afraid. It's not shunned, it's not
Speaker 3: frowned upon anymore.
Speaker 9: Surey let me I'm going to add I'm going to
Speaker 9: add to that as.
Speaker 3: Well as I knew you would.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's right, we've.
Speaker 11: Got a conference.
Speaker 7: Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 12: The First respond a Center for Excellence in conjunction with
Speaker 12: the National QUM Firefighter Foundation, is going to be hosting
Speaker 12: a suicide a mental halt and suicide awareness symposium in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 12: We have an opening reception on March nineteenth at the
Speaker 12: Country Music Hall of Fame, followed by a day and
Speaker 12: a half of just amazing speakers that'll be there.
Speaker 9: It's three hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 12: It courses more to put on the show than than
Speaker 12: the course of admission we have. The hotel room rates
Speaker 12: are less than half that they normally are in Nashville.
Speaker 12: The hotel stepped up to the plate and took care
Speaker 12: of us. Follow us on social media. We've posted about it.
Speaker 12: I know Billy's gonna put something out on the Secret
Speaker 12: List soon about it. And the spots is, we're about
Speaker 12: halfway full on the spots that.
Speaker 9: Are available right now. But jump on board, come hang
Speaker 9: out a couple of days.
Speaker 5: What are the dates?
Speaker 3: March nine and twenty first is a great town?
Speaker 9: Is the is the first night?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe they want to fly in a couple of
Speaker 3: celebrities speakers rough you know, on the on the arm.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. Put them up in a
Speaker 3: hotel or something. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 9: Come on, I'll tell you what. I'll give you a booth,
Speaker 9: I'll give you I'll give you a table. I hear
Speaker 9: they play.
Speaker 5: Both kinds of music there.
Speaker 3: They do.
Speaker 9: The Western sticking to your grandma.
Speaker 11: Is all right?
Speaker 3: Listen before we get out of here, Ghanza, where are
Speaker 3: we going to be Tomorrow, Frida, Saturday and Sunday. Oh,
Speaker 3: here he is. We will be there, Lee we Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: you'll catch me and Louis at the Nasau Coliseum Friday,
Speaker 3: Saturday and Sunday. Come out and see us. You don't
Speaker 3: have to buy anything. You just come shoot the breeze
Speaker 3: and I'll probably prush you to buy something, but anyway,
Speaker 3: just come to shoot.
Speaker 7: You buy something.
Speaker 3: Support the show, support the show, and one more gons.
Speaker 7: Alright, here we go, mister Lancaster boom May.
Speaker 3: We'll be going to Lancaster. Is leave gonna do that one?
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Sixteen May, Sixteenthsburg and Harrisburg. If you come, they have
Speaker 3: a great smoke. Den Monica will take you out for
Speaker 3: a steak. Chiefly Monico that's all I got. Thanks for
Speaker 3: coming on, guys, I appreciate it. Love these show, love them,
Speaker 3: love and love them.
Speaker 4: Let's get a show today. We gotta show Monday. Sore
Speaker 4: we do?
Speaker 3: Oh we do. Yeah, we got to show on Monday.
Speaker 3: So we'll see you Monday, not Thursday. We'll tell you
Speaker 3: all about the show and how we got Mike building
Speaker 3: the drunk in the booth. All right.
Speaker 9: Again, thank you Mike Milman for your input tonight as well.
Speaker 12: Christ thanks so much your knowledge is I appreciated your comments.
Speaker 9: Thank you, guys, Thank you you number one, number one, number.
Speaker 3: One, Yes, thank you. All right, we'll see you Monday.
Speaker 3: Until then, stay a long and go all.
Speaker 6: Right, everybody with the big one. Thanks again, guys. All right, guys,
Speaker 6: have a good night.
Speaker 4: Be safe.
Speaker 3: That's it.