WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:04.719 Hello everybody, Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and friends. 2 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.880 I am back with you again after a brief hiatus 3 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:10.839 of sorts. I don't know if I would call it that, 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.720 but I basically spent the last couple of weeks just 5 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:19.519 hammering away on my thesis chapter that was due yesterday 6 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 as of this recording, and it's going well. But now 7 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:26.199 that that's done, I can get back to telling you 8 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.559 guys all these crazy stories from history that lately have 9 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.320 been following themes that I've been concerned with both in 10 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:37.920 and out of grad school, and speaking of my thesis, 11 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:42.679 that is the theme that we're finally getting into with 12 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:47.759 this new set of episodes. Last time was imperialism. The 13 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:52.079 time before that was basically a sort of deeper dive 14 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:56.320 into the Israeli Palestinian conflict in various corners. But this 15 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.240 time we're going to be talking about the phenomenon of 16 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:05.359 American Christianity and American belief itself. Before we get into that, 17 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:08.959 I want to quick give a shout out to my 18 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:14.439 longtime executive producer level supporters on Patreon, John Andre Sather 19 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.439 and Mike Maleban, who have been sticking with me all 20 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:20.640 this time, and I cannot tell you, guys how much 21 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:23.480 I appreciate you. Thank you again as always for your 22 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.000 ongoing support and very kind words whenever we speak via 23 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:30.359 DM or email, which, by the way, all of you 24 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.280 can reach out to me on the various social media 25 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.840 platforms Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all of them, but you can 26 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:39.560 also email me at History Impossible at gmail dot com 27 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.359 and I usually get back to you within a day 28 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:43.640 or two. I do get a lot of emails, but 29 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.760 that's what happens when you're on substack. Which speaking of that, 30 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:51.519 please consider subscribing to the History Impossible Substack. 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There's 42 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.520 a lot of them, I know, but that's just the 43 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.080 nature of my podcast host. That's so they do things now. 44 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:37.319 But just for a couple bucks a month, you can 45 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.719 avoid all of that and get shout outs either before 46 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.879 or after the episode, depending on your level of support, 47 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:46.479 and a lot of free goodies if you support at 48 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.360 higher levels. But yes, please head over to Patreon dot com, 49 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:54.080 slash History impossible orhistorympossible dot substack dot com and become 50 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.120 a paid supporter of the show today so I can 51 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:59.919 keep this thing going while I'm, like I said, hammering 52 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.560 way of grad school. The new semester starting soon, guys. 53 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:07.520 So yes, without further ado, I think that about covers it. 54 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.520 Oh yes, before I forget, spread the word of this show. 55 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.400 This show honestly the best way to support it, especially 56 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.439 if you can't afford to you know, you know, pay 57 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:17.759 for the subscription. Just share it with people that you 58 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.080 know that might like the kind of stuff I do 59 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.599 and talk about that just are you know, fans of history. 60 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.199 That's usually enough for a lot of people to become interested. 61 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:29.439 And don't forget to leave a review over on Apple Podcast. 62 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.919 Let's get that average score up a little bit. I 63 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.840 think I've pissed off a few people lately seeing where 64 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:36.680 the score is sitting at right now, So let's get 65 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.360 up to a four point five, which might be a 66 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.439 little low for some people's taste, especially mine. So yes, 67 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.120 without further ado, let's get into this episode, which, like 68 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:54.680 I said, has to do with the phenomenon of American Christianity. 69 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.240 A little background. This is adapted from an essay I 70 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:02.840 actually wrote for now unfortunately defunct but not forgotten Areo 71 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:07.319 Magazine under the stewardship of Helen pluck Rose and Ione Italia, 72 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.759 who are both still doing great work. Iona over at Couillette, 73 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.879 where I occasionally correspond with her and Helen on her 74 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.680 own substack. I believe it's called The Overflowings of a 75 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.800 Liberal Brain. Great title. So yes, this essay was published 76 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:24.120 there at the beginning of twenty twenty one. Actually, so 77 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.160 some stuff in there might feel a little dated to 78 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.920 a certain degree. I can understand that, but I do 79 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:33.360 think it's kind of important for at least for me 80 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:37.360 to look at this because it gets into something that 81 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:41.120 I think has been happening more lately, and I appreciate that, 82 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.000 which is the memory of the we could say, the 83 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.800 pandemic years. What I've come to see. And this is 84 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.000 where the thesis comes into play, because it's sort of 85 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:53.279 the angle I'm taking is the new and I think 86 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:59.600 enduring Unfortunately in many cases relationship between individuals and institutions 87 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:06.279 thanks largely to the perceived and very real failures of 88 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.759 those institutions. And when you start to think about that relationship, 89 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.000 especially the further back in time you go, you start 90 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:17.759 to realize that those institutions might have changed, but that relationship, 91 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.600 at least in the United States, remains the same pretty 92 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.160 consistently throughout the entire history of I would go so 93 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.920 far as to say English colonization. That's basically what my 94 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:32.759 thesis is getting into. You guys will find out more 95 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:34.759 about that as time goes on and I get more 96 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:38.000 work done on it. But that line of thinking was 97 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:41.240 animating me when I wrote the essay that this is 98 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.319 based on what you guys are about to listen to. 99 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.519 But in this particular case, we're talking about just the 100 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:53.439 general scope and continuity of American Christianity, or really America's 101 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.399 relationship with religion. In general, if the title of this 102 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.800 episode has not made it clear, I'm definitely interested in 103 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.120 the idea that we might be living through or maybe 104 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.079 already have. I mean, it's hard to say what would 105 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.399 be termed one of our great awakenings. There's a bit 106 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:14.639 of dispute on how many great awakenings we've had. We've 107 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.959 at the very least had two. I believe we've had 108 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.439 four now possibly five. I've heard people making the argument 109 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.800 that we've had six already. So there's not a consensus 110 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:29.240 in academia or otherwise. There's some academics, historians Frank Lambert 111 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.000 comes to mind, who completely discount the idea of a 112 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.279 great awakening at all and just see it as a 113 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:38.800 sort of post hawk rationalization for religious ecstasy in a way, 114 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.360 or a way to sell future revivals, that kind of thing. 115 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:44.839 I don't know where I fall on that yet. I mean, 116 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:46.920 I think that it's safe to say that we've had them. 117 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:49.199 We've had these events, whatever you want to call them 118 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.560 of maybe not ecstasy but religious agitation. I think they've 119 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:57.920 happened multiple times. And well, to put my cards on 120 00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.600 the table, guys, I mean, I think a lot of 121 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.720 you who followed me for a long time. Know that 122 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.519 I carry within me not just a pretty deep distrust 123 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.160 of organized religion, but even of the religious impulse itself. 124 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.959 That's sort of been what has kept me from being 125 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.439 anything other than an atheist most of my life. Honestly, 126 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:19.319 if you guys tuned into the conversation Brendan O'Neil and 127 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.600 I had the last episode, you probably remember us talking 128 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:27.160 about that about how the challenge from being an atheist 129 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.800 comes from finding wonder in the world. Doesn't mean it's impossible. 130 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.480 You of course can, but there is a challenge, and 131 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.759 that challenge is self imposed. I don't think that anyone 132 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:40.920 would be honest if they said they were an atheist 133 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.600 but didn't have that kind of challenge, and I can't 134 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:46.439 do anything about that. I know a lot of you 135 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.600 listening our believers, and I do respect all of you 136 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:50.759 for it. I wouldn't have said that when I was 137 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.800 in my twenties, because, as I said to Brendan when 138 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.600 we talked about this, it's because I was in my twenties. 139 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.600 So as I've grown up, I've come to appreciate those 140 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.720 who practice religion. So please know that when I'm talking 141 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.720 about this kind of stuff, it's not with derision, at 142 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.839 least for those who believe this stuff, and especially as 143 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.720 I've learned more about our great awakenings, our religious traditions. 144 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:18.199 Whatever one thinks about religion does nothing to diminish the 145 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.040 fact that the people who experience these things, these phenomena, 146 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.120 whether they believe they were demonic possession or the possession 147 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.279 of the Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it, 148 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.040 they really did believe, at least most of them did, 149 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.000 that they were going through these things. And whether, again, 150 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.840 whatever you think about that or not, personally, you have 151 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:39.840 to respect that they actually believed it. You have to 152 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:44.200 respect that their behavior was affected by their belief in 153 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.799 these things. And it wasn't necessarily always a bad thing. 154 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:50.279 I would argue a lot of the times it is, 155 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.879 and that's sort of the ultimate trade off that one 156 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.799 has to think about when thinking about religion, or especially 157 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:01.840 popular religion. So with all of that said, that distrust 158 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.919 that I have felled in my life led me to 159 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:09.080 pretty quickly recognize what I believe at least we were seeing, 160 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.679 especially in the summer months of twenty twenty. But I 161 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.320 think continuing on and to a certain degree, even continuing 162 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.000 on to this very day, but especially during those early years, 163 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.639 I basically thought what I was seeing was more of 164 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.120 a religious phenomenon than a political one. And there were 165 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.679 two things that made me think this. The first, unfortunately 166 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:32.679 I have to describe this because it's an audio medium, 167 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.720 was a photo. It was taken a few blocks from 168 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.519 where I grew up, right at the site where George 169 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:43.960 Floyd was killed, where, if people forget, that was a 170 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:47.000 site that had and I think to this day though 171 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.279 there's been some dispute about it, as I understand it, 172 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:54.200 at least in Minneapolis, politics is a memorial site, and 173 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.720 in those early months, it was something much more intense. 174 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:03.960 It was the site of what only could be described 175 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.960 as a religious revival. And there was a photo of 176 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:10.840 this young woman standing in a tub about to be 177 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:16.559 baptized at the site of what was deemed a second 178 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.679 degree murder at the sight of To put a less 179 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.000 controversial point, ONYX, I know people like to dispute that 180 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:29.000 the site where somebody died who shouldn't have died. I mean, 181 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.559 if you'll let me editorialize for a moment, that's grotesque, 182 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:36.679 At least to me, It's almost as grotesque as when 183 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:40.519 Nancy Pelosi said to George Floyd in absentia that he 184 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.919 sacrificed himself for all of us, which I'm sorry, I 185 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:47.279 don't think George Floyd would have felt that way, never 186 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.000 mind the fact that he's not Jesus in every sense 187 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:51.840 of the word. He was not apparently a very good guy. 188 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:56.399 But he shouldn't have died, and he didn't sacrifice himself. 189 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:02.919 He died unnecessarily. That's it. Anyway, point should be well taken. There. 190 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:08.080 What I'm talking about, am I editorializing aside? It doesn't 191 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:11.120 really matter, like how grotesque it might have or might 192 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:14.960 not have been. What obviously was going on in that photo, 193 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:19.039 a woman being baptized at the site of a national tragedy, 194 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.559 is really revealing to what's going on. What we're looking 195 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.480 at in that image is a religious right being done 196 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:32.559 through a supposedly secular lens of racial justice. The Christian 197 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:35.559 Post reported this. Actually they wrote that quote, a number 198 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.799 of Christian groups that have been holding revival services at 199 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:42.120 the site where George Floyd died in Minneapolis say that 200 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:46.519 they're seeing many people turn to God in baptisms and miracles, 201 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:52.879 which apparently are occurring unquote. Now, these images were coming 202 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.120 out as I was reading the Masterful Tone of Christian 203 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:59.720 History by Tom Holland, Dominion How the Christian Revolution Remade 204 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.759 the World, in which in his final chapters of that 205 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:06.519 book he made the parallels between Christian tradition and what 206 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:10.919 we now call quote unquote wokeness quite explicit. He had 207 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:14.559 actually written his book a few years before everything that 208 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:19.480 happened in twenty twenty, but the rhetoric was already quite apparent, 209 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:23.480 especially in the vestiges of what the famous or infamous 210 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:27.279 rather Curtis Yarvin calls the cathedral or what I just 211 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.600 prefer to call the elite academic to professional class pipeline 212 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.360 that has always existed in one form or another. I 213 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:35.320 don't know. Maybe I'm naive to call it that and 214 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.399 not give it a much more ominous name like Jarvin did, 215 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:43.519 but you know whatever. Anyway, these connections that Holland had 216 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:47.000 made were only made clearer in twenty twenty with the 217 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:51.720 tent revival atmosphere of the George Floyd protests, and even 218 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:55.080 the riots to a certain degree being obvious to anyone 219 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.159 who knew even a little bit about America's Christian history. 220 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:02.440 And this is what led me to do some more digging, 221 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:06.320 and what resulted in this essay and now this episode 222 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.639 you're about to listen to. So with all that said, 223 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:13.519 let's get into some impossible history. 224 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.720 Well, let me to tell you what you would have 225 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:16.559 seen and heard. 226 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.320 If we're not being pleasant listening, if you're at lunch, 227 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:20.039 or if you have. 228 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.879 No appetite, now is a good time to switch off 229 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:22.279 the radio. 230 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.759 An ancestor of mine main Chaine, that if you eliminate 231 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:38.200 the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable evations banis of it. 232 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:38.879 You know, you. 233 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:46.759 Know, I wish I could say tonight that a lasting 234 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:51.000 piece is inside. I feel amoting dream, I feel a 235 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:51.840 laughing light. 236 00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:01.679 Noore you were as to kill, we care for kill. 237 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:04.399 Some say the world. 238 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:05.120 Will end empire. 239 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.559 Some say an from what I have tasted of desire, 240 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.720 I hold those of favor fire. But if it had 241 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:15.000 to perish twice, I think I know him of hate 242 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.360 to say that for destruction. Ice is also great and 243 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:19.320 looked surficed. 244 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:39.360 This is History Possible, Part one. A spiritual yearning. Nietzsche 245 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:44.480 had foretold it all. God might be dead, but his shadow, 246 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:48.960 immense and dreadful, continued to flicker even as his corpse 247 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:57.679 lay cold, Tom Holland dominion. The United States of America 248 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.720 has had a long and common located relationship with religion. 249 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.759 I think that is a very uncontroversial thing to say, 250 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:13.759 perhaps even obvious. Religion is likely more fundamental to America 251 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.639 and American history than most people believe, and that situation 252 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:21.919 is by no means over or predetermined to end. Though 253 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.759 this may not seem obvious, given that Americans have seemingly 254 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:29.000 never been less religious than they are now. Back in 255 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:32.519 twenty nineteen, the Pew Research Center found that almost a 256 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:36.399 quarter of Americans were unaffiliated with any religion, and that 257 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.159 three percent and four percent of them were atheists and agnostics, respectively. 258 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.480 This was up from the fifteen percent reported by the 259 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:47.919 American Religious Identification Survey in two thousand and eight, the 260 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:50.480 one that was touted by Bill Maher and his docu 261 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:55.200 comedy Religious, which was itself already double that of the 262 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:00.159 numbers cited in the nineteen ninety report. The reasons for 263 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.440 this decline are many, not least the incredible pace of 264 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:08.000 scientific and technological advancement, which has satisfied many people's desire 265 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:12.399 for immediate wonder. But the decline was also due to 266 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.720 the market increase in beautifully written, oftentimes and generally logically 267 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.559 sound works by members of the so called New atheist movement, 268 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.279 including such luminaries as the late Christopher Hitchens my favorite, 269 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.559 of course, but also figures like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris 270 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:32.840 and Daniel Dennett, and of course people forget this amplified 271 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.440 by YouTube videos of their debates with religious figures, the 272 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:39.159 kind of events that would previously have only been available 273 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.360 to ticket holders or viewers of book TV. Some of 274 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.200 you listening might not be old enough to remember this, 275 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.519 but the late two thousands, one of the most popular 276 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.879 things to search for on YouTube was something known as 277 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:55.039 the hitch slap, where you had compilations never longer than 278 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:56.960 ten minutes, because that was the limit back then of 279 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.440 how long videos could be of chrispher Hitchin providing hitch 280 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.759 slaps where he essentially smacks down rhetorically speaking his opponents 281 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:10.640 and debates, sometimes about politics but oftentimes about religion because 282 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.319 that was just what he was so good at. 283 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:16.160 The first question, obviously, is for you, Christopher, since mister 284 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.160 McGrath has just finished, I would let put the question 285 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.079 to you, which is, if. 286 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.359 God does not exist, on what basis. Can anyone say 287 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.440 this action is right or this action is wrong? 288 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.000 So whoever asked that only just came into the room, right, 289 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:32.480 I mean, I can't believe that I didn't say what 290 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.680 I thought about it, But I won't repeat it because 291 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.680 actually what Dr McGrath just said I thought was unusually 292 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.920 good on this point. You'll recall what he said on 293 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.960 the dostev skin matter. If God exists, we have to 294 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.400 do what he says. If he doesn't, we can do 295 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.279 what we like. Now, just apply this for a second 296 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.319 in practice and in theory. 297 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:55.200 Is it not. 298 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.960 Said of God's chosen people, and is it not said 299 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.720 to them by God in the Pentateuke that they can 300 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.480 do exactly as they like to other people. They can 301 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.319 enslave them, they can take their land, they can take 302 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.880 their women, they can destroy all their young men, they 303 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:15.000 can help themselves to all their virgins. 304 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:15.599 They can do what. 305 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.440 Anyone who had no sense of anything but their own 306 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:22.000 rights would be able to do. But this case, with 307 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:27.240 divine permission, doesn't that make it somewhat more evil? In 308 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:29.680 Iran where I've been, I've been to all three acts 309 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.839 of evil in the countries. By the way, I think 310 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.200 I'm very right. Who can say that you're not allowed 311 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.640 to sentence a woman who is a virgin to death, 312 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:39.960 even though she may have committed in the eyes of 313 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.720 the mulla's a capital crime, perhaps by showing her hair 314 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.559 to often all her limbs. She can't be sentenced to death, 315 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:49.680 but religious law means she can be raped by the 316 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.519 revolutionary guards, and she's not a virgin anymore, then they 317 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.759 can kill her. Do what thou wilt shall be. The 318 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.079 whole of the law used to be considered the motto 319 00:18:59.079 --> 00:18:59.680 of Satanism. 320 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:00.359 Miracle. 321 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.279 Divine permission given to people who think they have God 322 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:09.160 on their side, enables actions that a normal, morally normal 323 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:15.200 unbeliever would not contemplate, the mutilation of genitalia of children, 324 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.759 who would do that if it wasn't decided that God 325 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.880 wanted it. Just as when the poet in England gets 326 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.680 the poet laureateship, they start to write drivel instead of 327 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.240 poetry for some reason. It's the king's scrofula. The other 328 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:35.279 way around, morally normal and intelligent people find themselves saying 329 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:39.200 fatuously wicked things when this subject comes up. The suicide 330 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:45.160 bombing community is entirely faith based. The gentle mutilation community 331 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:50.559 is entirely faith based. Slavery is mandated by the Bible. 332 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.319 People keep hearing how many abolitionists were Christians, Well, it 333 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.279 was about time that they took a stand against it, 334 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.960 having mandated it for so long. So it's it's it's 335 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.000 it's not even a tautology. I think to say that 336 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.000 that there's a relationship between the human impulse to do evil, 337 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:11.680 to be selfish, to be self centered, to be greedy, 338 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.759 and a contrast between that and faith. Because given only faith, 339 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.960 mountains can be moved, and millions of people who would 340 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.480 never normally acquierce and evil are brought to it straight 341 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:27.599 away and with ease and with self righteousness. There that's 342 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.480 my answer to that. And the question did not answer 343 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:35.000 my challenge. Name an ethical statement made or action performed 344 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.400 by a believer in the name of faith that couldn't 345 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.160 have been by an infidel, And name if you can, 346 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.880 this is easier a wicked action that could only be 347 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.240 mandated by faith, And then you'll see how silly your 348 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:47.880 question was. 349 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:54.039 Wherever you were, these interactions from people like Kitchens and 350 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.440 all these other new atheists revealed just how shaky the 351 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:01.839 logical and moral foundations of religion, particularly Christianity, a lot 352 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.160 of the time, actually were, especially in the face of 353 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:09.960 neo Enlightenment arguments. This had already been clear since at 354 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.200 least January sixth of two thousand and two, when the 355 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.279 quote unquote spotlight article exposing the widespread rape and abuse 356 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.119 of children within the Catholic Church hit the front page 357 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:24.759 of the Boston Globe. It was therefore unsurprising when eight 358 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.359 years later Christopher Hitchins defeated former British Prime Minister Tony 359 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.000 Blair in a debate over whether religion was a force 360 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.720 for good in the world, a loss that Blair himself 361 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:38.720 actually conceded. So it was clear in the late two 362 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:42.400 thousands and early twenty tens that irreligiosity was growing, and 363 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.599 in some ways seems to still be growing, depending on 364 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.920 which polls you look at, and many non religious folks 365 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:54.759 become understandably complacent, believing that hey, maybe this whole religious thing, 366 00:21:54.799 --> 00:22:01.119 this whole Christian thing, is over. Unfortunately for them, at least, 367 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.400 they may be about to face a rude awakening, no 368 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:11.480 pun intended. Many of the new atheists, including Richard Dawkins 369 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.200 and Sam Harris, seem to have accepted that religion is 370 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.440 probably here to stay, despite declining church attendants and the 371 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.000 statistics I referenced earlier. Now, this doesn't mean that the 372 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.799 new atheists have given up their fight. However, some of 373 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.599 the recent trends in the supposedly secular world have taken 374 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.160 on an increasingly religious character, and at least in my view, 375 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.440 that shows that growing irreligiosity seems to lead to an 376 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.680 increase in spiritual yearning. You can kind of see this 377 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:47.319 with the number of former atheists public atheists at least, 378 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.799 who have turned to Christianity. I'm thinking specifically Ion heir 379 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:56.559 Cili and Neil Ferguson, her husband, the Scottish historian, both 380 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.839 have taken to going to church and seeing themselves as 381 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.759 cultural Christians. Even Richard Dawkins referred to himself I believe. 382 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.119 I don't want to put words in his mouth, but 383 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.079 I believe he referred to himself as a cultural Christian 384 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.880 at one point, or at least respected, in his words, 385 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.559 the Christian origins of the society in which he calls home. 386 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.200 So there has been a shift in that sense, but 387 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.480 that seems to be more of a political shift. The 388 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.920 shift on the ground that I'm talking about is the 389 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.680 one that seems to have more to do with what 390 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:35.000 I just called that sense of spiritual yearning. Well, things 391 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.599 don't seem to be going in his favor as much 392 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:42.519 as they used to. Take Jordan Peterson for example, He's 393 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.960 had a guru like appeal for a long time with 394 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.599 his most dedicated audience, at least who are mostly comprised 395 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.640 of young men, to be fair, and his appeal to 396 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:58.039 them has always had a distinctly religious character. Put aside 397 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.759 the fact that he can't admit that he's a Christian, 398 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.680 because I starting to suspect, as many have pointed out, 399 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.799 he probably isn't He's probably an agnostic, but who's also 400 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:12.119 a Christian apologist? Regardless of that, though many people have claimed, 401 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.720