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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome to Adventures and Angular. I'm Brooks Forsyth

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filling in for Chuck today. Also we'll be filling in

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for other panelists who were busy, I guess. And today

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we have our special guest is Will Gant. Why don't

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you introduce yourself? Tell us why you're famous?

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Speaker 2: And I don't know about famous, but you are now well.

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I am half of the Complete Developer podcast started that

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with a friend of mine going on five years ago,

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which is time really flies. I also wrote a book

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that was released last August on Surviving Developer Whiteboard Interviews.

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Then that's published through a press. Additionally, I have an

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upcoming book that's coming out at the end of April

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or early May. We haven't completely got the date finalized yet,

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and that's Remote Work. The Complete Guide. Started this book

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last fall, before everybody got forced to work remote, So

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I thought it'd be good to kind of come on

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the show and talk about some of the things that

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you can learn about remote work that might help you

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do it a little bit more easily and maybe make

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it so that when you can go back into the office,

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you don't necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Have to awesome. So you predicted this global pandemic, and

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you started writing a book about remote work, which is

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a fresh of on its own.

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Speaker 2: Not really. Actually the genesis for this was trying to

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sell the idea to management and doing so successfully at

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a previous job after watching other people fail doing it.

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I had a coworker who went into upper management and

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talked to him and was just like, oh, well, this

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will you know, I can take care of my kid

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during the day instead of you, instead of putting them

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in daycare. And he's got like a two year old

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and just talking about all the time and effort it'll

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save him and not selling the idea to the company.

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And it was just a completely ham handed approach and

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it didn't work. He was not allowed to work remotely

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very much. There's another interesting story on that one. And

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so I started thinking about how it's a sales process

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and how developers really need to be approaching this when

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they try to convince management. And I ended up pitching

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the idea and you know, getting started on it, and

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it took pretty much all Fall to get it done.

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And then there was a little bit more after the

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first of the year that I had to do. And

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it turns out that coronavirus just sort of showed up

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on its own and kind of changed everything for everyone. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think everyone's probably everyone listened to this is

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working remote still so and I'm sure some people are

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enjoying it and want to continue doing it, so that

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is it's definitely timely. I have worked remote for the

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last year and a half plus, but I failed at

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convincing two jobs to let me work remote and just

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left them for jobs that would let me work remote

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out of the gate, right, So yeah, it would definitely

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be interested in learning more out how you go about that,

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because maybe I did it wrong or who knows.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think if you were successful, you didn't do

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it wrong, but there's always a way to do it better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Well, and I was successful only because

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I left the job and found somebody who would kne

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who hired remote.

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Speaker 2: Workers, right, So yeah, well, I mean my job is

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one hundred percent remote. My previous job was two days

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a week, and I've had several off and on before

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that that you know, were partial remote, and I think

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I had two that were fully remote. I bounced around

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a lot, you know, doing contracting, and yeah, it's it's

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a skill like any other, right, Like if you remember

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when you first got out of college and went into

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the office, there was all kinds of stuff that you

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just didn't have your head around because they don't prepare

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you for, you know, just all the junk that goes

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on in an office, you know, like having to understand

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political currents or understanding when communication is necessary and when

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it's not, and what to talk about and what not

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to talk about. You know, everybody learns this stuff the

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hard way pretty much when they go into a regular

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work environment. And it's the same thing with remote even

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if you've been in a standard environment, you know, for

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twenty years. It's just a culture shock.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's definitely a different especially on the communication front,

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which I think is something that people are at least

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somewhat a wear and hopefully but you know, you have

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to over communicate when you go remote. And I'm sure

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there's there's other things to it too, but that's a

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that's a good point. It is, and I never thought

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of it like as if now you're going into a

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totally different office.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's much worse office probably for as far

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as your productivity, unless you planned ahead, so you know,

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for instance, you know, I've worked at companies where they

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wanted you to use your own personal computer for doing

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the work stuff, and of course they wanted corporate it

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to control that computer, and so all the developers would

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buy like a four hundred dollars laptop and it's like, well,

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I can wait thirty minutes for a build. I'm not

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dropping money into that. And you know that doesn't work

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very well. You'll have all kinds of ergonomic things, things

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that you don't think about. You know, a lot of

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people go, oh, I can just sit on the couch

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and watch TV and code, and it's like, you're gonna

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script your back, You're going to scrip your neck. You

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know your your site's going to be bad. You don't

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have a second monitor.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of things like that. There's also issues

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with you know, now your your own it department. If

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the network has an outage, you don't call somebody. You've

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got to go fix it unless you can get somebody

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out there real quick. That was probably the worst thing

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that I learned when I first started doing this was,

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you know, it turns out Comcast they don't really feel

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like they have to show up for a few days,

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and that can be that can be a real pain.

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You know, you have to have a pretty much a

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decent laptop to work on. And if your internet connection

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is out, you need to know the owners of the

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coffee shops nearby, right guess where you're going, or you

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get on your neighbor's WiFi, you know, if they don't

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secure it on occasion, that's that's been helpful too. But

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you know, you have to think about all this kind

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of stuff and you have to have plans for you know,

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how am I going to handle it? If you know,

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the power goes out or the internet connection goes out?

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You know what am I going to do? If I'm

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on a conference call and my neighbor is you know,

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it's got a leaf blower running right outside my window.

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That happened to me right after Nashville had tornadoes, like

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the next morning, at like seven o'clock in the morning,

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they were blowing leaves off their sidewalk like we've been

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up all night with a tornado and that now you've

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got to clean the sidewalk first thing.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like man, you know, and so you'll just

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run into all these issues with noise, you know, problems

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like you know and having kids in the house. You

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know they you know, they'll run around underfoot, and right

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now is not normal, right, you know, everybody's home with

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their kids. But even the rest of the time, you know,

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you have to kind of set appropriate boundaries with the

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other people that you happen to live with. I've even

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been on a conference call with a guy that had

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a roommate that for some reason decided blasting in you

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at full volume in the middle of the day was

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a great idea, and so we'd be on a conference

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call and here it goes. It's like, this is like

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meditation and we're in the stressful conference call. It's really surreal.

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You know, the number of things that people don't think

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about until they run into them is pretty substantial, and

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a lot of people are finding out a lot of

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those things. But there's stuff that doesn't come up as much,

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or that management is not as worried about right now.

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Right like if if your kids interrupt on a conference

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call at the moment, it's like, well, you know, we're

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all stuck at home. It's a disaster. And management is

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stuck at home with their kids too, so they're gonna

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be a little bit more understanding than they would normally.

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So you just have to think through all that kind

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of stuff and try to figure out what can go

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wrong and try to limit it before it occurs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a that's definitely a good point. So with

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with kids. I mean, I think for me, at least,

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I've always had like a basement right with a door,

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and then you know.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what I have. I have, you know, have

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a door that locks. Like if you go up the

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stairs to the main part of the house, there's locks

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on both sides of the door, right, which, now that

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I think about it, I don't know that I overly

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like the fact that I could be locked down here.

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Speaker 1: Better be careful what you say before you go downstairs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I didn't. You know, I think about that

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maybe as carefully as I should. But you know, I

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have a door that locks. I have an additional room

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where like I used to have like a server rack

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and all that stuff, you know when I did consulting,

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and you know, all my equipment is down here. I've

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got most of what I need. I don't have a

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coffee pot downstairs, but other than that, I don't really

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have to go up much. That's one thing I noticed

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at my old house when my office was right in

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the middle of the house. Is that every time somebody

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had to go from one end of the house to

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the other, they would walk through. Every time I had

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to get up to go get something, you know, somebody

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start talking to me. Oh so if you're like thinking

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about a you know, it's like, okay, you know we're

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in the stack. Is this problem and you're going through

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that in your head and somebody comes at you talking,

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you lose that and so you don't want to do that.

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So definitely, the basement office is probably the best thing

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in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do do you have I don't have a bathroom downstairs,

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so I find when I'm drinking a lot of ice

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tea or something, right, and then I have to go upstairs.

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Speaker 2: I have a bathroom with a shower. Excellent, because this

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was like a mother in law's apartment.

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Speaker 1: They really could lock you down there.

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Speaker 2: I have a separate have a separate thermostat Okay, separate,

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I mean, like I really do think that it was

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somebody's mother in law that right, Yeah, it's fixed for them.

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My garage has got you know, all my weightlifting equipment,

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and so you know, I can get frustrated with typescript,

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which I promise never happens, and go, you know, swing

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kettle bills. Yeah. Now, if I swing kettle bills every

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time I ranted the problems with typescript, I would be

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extremely strong, right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely, okay, yeah, yeah, So I definitely can

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relate to the interrupting when you have to go, you know,

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get something or do something.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: That's I've held my you know, p for a while

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just because I don't want to have to. I want

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to finish something, get that thought down before I can,

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you know, let myself relieve myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's that's the worst feeling. And it's so

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it's it's just so restrictive. I also say that, you know,

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one thing a lot of people have noticed working remotely

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is you kind of have a different flow of time. So,

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you know, if it takes you a minute to wake

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up in the morning, that's okay, because you know, even

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though I have the world's slowest coffee pot, I could

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still have a pot of coffee and have probably two

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cups of coffee in my system in the amount of

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time it used to take me to drive to work.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: And you know, that's that's really helpful. I also think

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that a lot of times, you know, a lot of

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people are going to be surprised by how much money

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they have saved working from home because you don't think

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about all the times you go out to lunch and

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you know, you spend twenty bucks at lunch because it's

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an expensive area, which is where all development shops seem

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to be. You know, they don't never, they don't ever

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put them in the hood with a crystal next door.

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You know, it's right, Oh, you're going to the you know,

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twenty five dollars top place, so you save a ton

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of money on that. You know, the average commuter spends

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twenty six hundred dollars a year on other commute including

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you know that's gas, vehicle maintenance, you know, all that

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kind of stuff. That does not include the cost of

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biscuits at the gas station when you're on the way

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into work, or the fact that you eat you know,

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more expensive meals, or the fact that you've lost all

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this time you know, in transit going both ways, it's

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extremely expensive. When you start thinking about the opportunity cost,

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you know, you're probably getting somewhere north of ten thousand

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dollars a year by the time you count, I could

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just work during that time and get paid for the hours. Yeah,

250
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that's worth a lot. You know, when I at my

251
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previous job and you know, dealing with Nashville traffic, just

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how screwed up everything is because they overbuilt and then

253
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they didn't build the infrastructure to support it, and so

254
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you never knew how long it's going to take you

255
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get to work. I got up to intermediate level and

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spoken Russian in like a year and a half on

257
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my commute and like, and you know, it's it's funny

258
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because you're like, you're going through this traffic and it's awful,

259
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and you're you have to worry about getting in a

260
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car crash, and so you're not like completely on point studying.

261
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It's like, you get up to intermediate level, Like how

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long does that actually take?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just the amount of time that you've lost, and

265
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it's like, yeah, I made good use of it. And

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you know, that's actually helped me out once or twice,

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but it was mainly just because I was tired of

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listening to podcasts on the way in and the way home,

269
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especially since I worked with old technology and I couldn't

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use any of the new stuff that they were always

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talking about on the podcasts. It just made me mad

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every day. So right, right, but the time sink is

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is a real it's a huge cost.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is is for companies, right, this is

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something I get into in the book. Your company is

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actually losing out because they're not allowing remote work there.

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And there's several reasons for that. You know, there's recruitment

279
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and retention of employees. Right now, if you're hiring people

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to go into the office, Well, you're not hiring them

281
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to go into the office at the moment because that's

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not a thing because the whole social distancing thing. But

283
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normally they have to be close, right and more than Like,

284
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you're in an expensive office park, and so all the

285
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homes in that area are expensive around that office park,

286
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and so your developers are either spending an hour trying

287
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to get there or they're paying through the nose, and

288
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either one of those things means you have to pay

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them more for something that doesn't provide value to you

290
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or to them. It just provides wear and tear on

291
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the road and pollution. You get a larger hiring pool

292
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if you hire remote, right, you can get people from

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across the country. The company I work for is in

294
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Indiana and I'm in Nashville. I have to go up

295
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there once a quarter. I didn't get to go this quarter.

296
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You know, it's a six and a half hour drive,

297
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and I'm there for a week and then I come back.

298
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But the rest of the time I'm at home. They

299
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were able to get me because you know, hey, they

300
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have remote. They wouldn't have been able to if I

301
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had to move up there because I can't drive in snow.

302
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I'm from Nashville. Not a skill we have. It doesn't

303
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look like it's going to ever develop here either, I

304
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mean really, you know. Another thing is organizational resiliency, Like

305
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if you have a pandemic, you're workers can work from

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home if you're already set up to do that. If not,

307
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you're going to be scrambling around at the same time

308
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as everybody else is scrambling around. A lot of organizations

309
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got nailed by that. Frankly, you know, they they lost

310
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uncountable hours to moving everybody home. You know, your office

311
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space costs if you look at what what it costs

312
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to rent, you know, per square foot in a major

313
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metropolitan area, like three or four cubes you know, will

314
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get you a you know, like junior QA engineer's salary. Yeah,

315
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it's like I could have more people to throw at

316
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this thing, so it's expensive.

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Speaker 1: You know.

318
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Speaker 2: The other thing is is you can hire people from

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other towns. Now the place that I work for, their

320
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actual average salary is lower than what's here in Nashville.

321
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But usually it's the reverse, Right, you have somebody in

322
00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:47,279
New York they hire out to Nashville. They'll they'll pay

323
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the Nationale people what is a ridiculously high salary here

324
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and up there it's low. And I've been on that

325
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that one before that was great the amount of money

326
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I made. It's like, I don't mind working extra hours.

327
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You guys are paying me like you know what I

328
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would get like for time and a half here. Sure,

329
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and so it can really it can really help a lot.

330
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I will say that they're you know, the main reason

331
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that a lot of these companies don't they don't really

332
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want the remote work thing is that they have a

333
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lot of misconceptions, some of which are getting addressed rather

334
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harshly right now. So you know, there's there's stuff like

335
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the quality of life you know, you'll see people that go, oh,

336
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if I work remote, I would never be able to

337
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stop working. It's like, well, your body will enforce that,

338
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you will fall asleep. At some point, you will be

339
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able to stop working. It's just it's whether you're disciplined

340
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enough to do it before it becomes medically necessary, which,

341
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by the way, happens in offices too. It's just now

342
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you're further from home.

343
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Speaker 1: In that now you have to drive home instead of

344
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walk upstairs walk your bedroom. Right.

345
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I got a recliner down here.

346
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I don't have to do that. It is six steps

347
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away from here, and I can make that no matter

348
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how tired I am. But yeah, the misconceptions are really bad,

349
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and there are some things that are that are worrying. Right.

350
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There's stuff like career growth, Like if you're working remote,

351
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you're not seen by the senior executives. How are you

352
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,559
going to move up? You have to think about that.

353
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You have to plan. There is stuff around, you know,

354
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company culture. You know, they do want people to be

355
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friends that work together and all that. I will say

356
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that I've formed some pretty good friendships with the people

357
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:20,639
I've worked with, and I've only been there since November,

358
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we actually communicate, you know, And it's I think that

359
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that's probably a thing that a lot of companies don't

360
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really know. They overvalue what they think culture is, and

361
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they think of culture as the forced, top down integration

362
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of people into groups versus the organic integration of people

363
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into groups that happens anyway because they're working next to

364
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each other or virtually next.

365
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Speaker 1: To each other.

366
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Speaker 2: I will say that if you want to talk about

367
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corporate culture, that's one of the reasons why they send

368
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everybody home right now, is because we turns out we

369
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were culturing a Petri dish of viruses in all these buildings,

370
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right with the open floor plans and all that stuff,

371
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where some guy sneezes sixty feet away and you're in

372
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an open room with him.

373
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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, open floor plane. It's like they didn't mind.

374
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It boggles my mind.

375
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Speaker 2: That they that's a good idea, But I think I

376
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:15,200
think when Dante wrote The Inferno, he could not have

377
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,880
visualized an open floor planet. I'm just gonna throw that

378
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,000
out there. Is like that kind of tells you about

379
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,920
what I think about it. You know, it's probably just

380
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,079
purgatory because you do eventually get to leave rights. Not

381
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:30,960
as bad as it could be, but it's you know,

382
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,559
it's on down there, you know, and there is there

383
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,240
is other stuff that will happen, right, Like when companies

384
00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:39,319
start thinking about letting people go remote, they probably aren't

385
00:17:39,319 --> 00:17:43,119
gonna let everybody go remote, or maybe everybody can't. Right,

386
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:45,640
Like where I work, there's a production floor, you know

387
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,240
they do. They have these printers that are massive, you know,

388
00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:50,799
and their you know envelopes, you know, insert machines and

389
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:53,599
all that kind of stuff. Like you know, Joe Shmo

390
00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:56,039
is taking that back home and plugging that thing in

391
00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:58,319
in his garage. Right, it's got to stay at the

392
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,119
factory floor. So how do you keep those employees from

393
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,799
being jealous of the ones who can work remotely? And

394
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,960
you know, conversely, how do you keep the ones that

395
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,720
work remotely from looking down on those people? And you

396
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,920
know that's something that managers will bring up. But the

397
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,960
thing is is you have that problem in the office.

398
00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:15,839
Oh yeah, the office workers are in an air conditioned

399
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,799
office with you know that's not really loud and they're

400
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:22,119
not getting interrupted all the time, whereas it's crazy on

401
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,240
a print shop floor. The amount of stuff that's going

402
00:18:24,279 --> 00:18:26,759
on and it's noisy, and you know, it's hot half

403
00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:29,480
the time, and it smells funny, you know. So a

404
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,599
lot of this stuff is really kind of it's cop

405
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,519
outs to say, hey, we don't want to let people

406
00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:36,799
work remotely, And so I kind of talked through some

407
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:40,359
of those in the book and how you might consider

408
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,960
overcoming those when you're discussing it with management, because you

409
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,480
do have to kind of phrase things in a way

410
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,559
that makes it clear that the problems they think that

411
00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:49,960
remote work is going to cause mostly they already have

412
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,920
and have already fixed. Yeah.

413
00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:54,519
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that always kind of

414
00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:57,599
drove back to me was like, listen, if I'm working

415
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,559
remote and all of a sudden the world, world starts

416
00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:04,079
falling apart, like just ask me to come back, or

417
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,839
there's something else going on with me, right, like right,

418
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,839
like just let me go at that point, you know.

419
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think it comes down to a lot

420
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,640
of companies evaluate performance by butts and seats or some

421
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,960
measure that's roughly equivalent, right, Like, Okay, he participates in

422
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,839
all the meetings. Well, it's like he could participate in

423
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,839
all the meetings by throwing out non sequitors and starting

424
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,519
arguments but he participated. You know, definitely give that guy raise,

425
00:19:28,559 --> 00:19:29,640
promote him into management.

426
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 1: You know, that's how they do it.

427
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, it's you know, it seems strangely conserved

428
00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:40,440
a lot of across a lot of large corporations. So

429
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,640
sounds fair to me. But you have a situation where

430
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,839
employers are not evaluating what business value somebody brings into

431
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,440
the organization. You know, if I have a developer who

432
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,920
can do eight hours of work in two hours and

433
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,119
do it well, either I can get another six hours

434
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,000
out of the dude and compensate him appropriately for that

435
00:20:03,079 --> 00:20:05,880
added time, or I need to start thinking about why

436
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,440
the rest of my team can't get it done in

437
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,559
eight hours. So there's a lot of stuff like that.

438
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,680
Like one of the things I heard from one employer

439
00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:14,119
was well, if we let people work remote, they'll work

440
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,920
for somebody else and build both of us. Yeah, And

441
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,400
I'm like, okay, do you know not have systems in

442
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,440
place to catch that? Well, what if we can't catch it?

443
00:20:21,559 --> 00:20:24,039
I'm like, so you're saying that they can only work

444
00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:27,400
half a day and you can't tell how you need

445
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,680
to send every employee home right now because you're losing

446
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,799
fifty percent of your productivity.

447
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah that I've heard that before as well from no

448
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,599
One when I was trying to work remote. But I

449
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,519
have heard that fear before, and it's well, then they

450
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:46,160
wouldn't be working as much. Like how does that Either

451
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,720
they're not working a full day now or you would

452
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,759
see a huge drop off on their workload. So yeah,

453
00:20:53,839 --> 00:20:54,599
which one is it?

454
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:57,039
Speaker 2: And you know the thing about it is, I've worked

455
00:20:57,079 --> 00:21:00,359
in offices, like I worked with a guy that March

456
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,119
madness would roll around. I'm sure he was a wreck

457
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,319
this year now that I think about it, because like

458
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,319
he lived for basketball season, you know, and so March

459
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,279
Madness would happen and he would stream the games to

460
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,400
his work desktop and just be sitting there watching them,

461
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,880
and he would just you know, and he was constantly

462
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,039
doing all the stuff and you know, watching you know,

463
00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:24,759
watching that, reading articles about it, not getting any work

464
00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:27,680
done during the month of March. And so it's like, well,

465
00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:29,640
he could do that at home and at least he

466
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,680
wouldn't be chewing up your bandwidth, you know, slowing the

467
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,400
network down, right, Yeah, And so it's always really it's

468
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,720
really strange, and most of what you have to do

469
00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:43,640
is you have to figure out, Okay, what is the

470
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,640
hole in their logic and then put them in it,

471
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,880
because then they're going to realize that, Okay, this person

472
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,319
has actually thought about this, and it gives you more

473
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,079
credibility and you can go, okay, we need to think

474
00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:55,759
about how we're evaluating developers, because then you win because

475
00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:57,160
then all you got to do is actually do your

476
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:57,960
work when you're at home.

477
00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, which some people find challenging. Right, I mean,

478
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,759
but after this, you you you should know if you're

479
00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:08,960
cut out for work from home or or enjoy it, right, right,

480
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:12,480
So that that's kind of been answered for everyone.

481
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I will say that right now is

482
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:15,640
not normal.

483
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,799
Speaker 1: No, it's not. It's easier when when all the kids

484
00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:21,119
aren't home and you know, and you can buy a.

485
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 2: Toilet paper, right, you know, and you're not like I

486
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:27,319
think I can go to co op and get corn cobs,

487
00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:28,920
Like that's not a good place to be trying to

488
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,960
do an office job from you know. We do have

489
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,480
some interesting things going on. But even so, there's a

490
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,200
lot of people that are like, man, I really like this.

491
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,039
It's like everything is falling apart right now and this

492
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,880
is still an improvement, Like how this topiing and messed

493
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:42,799
up is the office.

494
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,759
Speaker 1: That's a that's a good point. Yeah, that's a really

495
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:49,079
good point because this is even just the stress of

496
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,519
it all is making things hard, right, and and if

497
00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:55,519
you're still working and getting work done, well that's that

498
00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:58,960
that's impressive. And you know, hopefully companies realize that and

499
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,559
let people continue to work from home.

500
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you know they may get forced, right,

501
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,799
like if enough people are like no, I want to

502
00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:09,279
work remote, Like, it's going to be to the advantage

503
00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:11,839
of the companies to figure it out just so that

504
00:23:11,839 --> 00:23:14,599
they can get employees. I mean, especially in tech jobs.

505
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,440
You know, it's hard to get people, you know, for

506
00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:18,880
like a dot net senior developer. I mean I can

507
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,240
remember going through and interviewing dozens of people and there

508
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,119
weren't any that were actually senior.

509
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

510
00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: In my experience, it's like, Okay, you got three years

511
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,720
experience and you're a senior. It's like, dude, I've been

512
00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:32,279
using it since the beta in two thousand and two,

513
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,440
and I feel like I'm barely a senior about half

514
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:35,839
the time.

515
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's a that's a different discussion. What is

516
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,400
a senior developer anyways? Right, Like some guy with more

517
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,920
gray hair than me. Yeah, you know.

518
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: That's that's the working definition I'm going to go with

519
00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,039
because anything else reminds me of how old I am.

520
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,119
So so, you know, just yeah, it's it's hard to

521
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,200
get good developers, especially you know, if you're using a

522
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,240
tech stack that's really you know, complex and you know,

523
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:05,000
specialized if you're dealing with you know, my previous job,

524
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:08,319
there was a lot of low level Windows GDI stuff

525
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,240
that we had to do as part of the app

526
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:13,519
because we did printing related stuff. And the number of

527
00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,359
developers you can find when they're predominantly web devs that

528
00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:19,400
knew that stuff, you know, it's it's basically non existent.

529
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,559
When I interviewed at that place, they you know, I

530
00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,799
went through a recruiter and I left from there, and

531
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:27,279
I was like, I think I'll take this job. And

532
00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:30,119
I tried to call my recruiter and couldn't get hold

533
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,359
of her because she was already talking to management because

534
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,359
they had said they wanted to hire me. Yeah, right,

535
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,319
right right, And so companies jump on that real quick.

536
00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:40,720
And I think that that kind of scarcity is going

537
00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:43,640
to force them to allow remote work. I also think

538
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,400
it's in their their economic interest.

539
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it absolutely is.

540
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: You know, there's plenty of boards of directors right now

541
00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:51,759
that are like, Okay, we have to let this happen

542
00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:55,559
in the future, because if we don't, you know, something

543
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:58,000
that happens a world away can suddenly bring our business

544
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,880
to a screeching halt.

545
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. And who used to say, you know, until we

546
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,279
get a vaccine, and we're still going to have lockdowns

547
00:25:05,319 --> 00:25:09,599
and until you know, even if they're not worldwide, they'll

548
00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:12,119
be area wide. Right, So you're still going to have

549
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,160
this up and down for at least a year. So

550
00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,720
there's definitely the big thing to me that's that always

551
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,119
if I was a business, is the applicant pool. Like,

552
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,200
all of a sudden, you don't have to be in

553
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,039
commuting distance to New York City or wherever, right, Yeah.

554
00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 2: And it really opens up a lot of other opportunities

555
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,640
I think some of these companies haven't thought of. Like,

556
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,519
for instance, a lot of companies have difficulty hiring diverse candidates,

557
00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:41,359
right they want to, and they can't for whatever reason.

558
00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:44,440
You know, for instance, probably ten years ago, the hiring

559
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,400
pool of software developers in Nashville was predominantly white men.

560
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,920
If you have a company that can't, you know, and

561
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,519
they need to for whatever reason they want to. It's like, well,

562
00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:55,880
what do you do. You know, well, if you're hiring

563
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,000
from across the country, you've got more options and you

564
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,960
can probably find some body. Or you know, look at

565
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,400
people that you know they've got medical issues. You know,

566
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,079
I worked with a guy who was blind who was

567
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,039
a software developer. His wife would drive him to work

568
00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:11,319
and drop him off. And dude was a really, really

569
00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:14,400
good developer. But if he didn't have a wife at

570
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,359
home that could drive him to work, he had no options.

571
00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:20,519
And so this has the potential to lift a lot

572
00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:22,200
of people out of poverty. You know, I grew up

573
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,400
at the end of a power line outside of a

574
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,400
small town in Tennessee. You know, I've literally seen people

575
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,720
cook possum because they were broke, and you know, money's

576
00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:34,160
not coming in till the end of summer, right right,

577
00:26:34,279 --> 00:26:37,240
And you know there's people out there that have high

578
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,480
speed internet connections, believe it or not, but they're broke. Otherwise.

579
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:43,160
It's like, if they can learn how to code, you know,

580
00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:45,640
that could that could really help those people, or in

581
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,519
the inner cities for that matter. You know, we have

582
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,240
lots of little spots in the country that are not

583
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,680
close to real estate where software developed development companies like

584
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:56,359
to be. But you could hire people from there, you know.

585
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,640
And then you've got people that have other medical issues.

586
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,880
You know, I've worked with people that had answer and

587
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,119
you know, their immune systems were compromised and they were told, hey,

588
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,240
you cannot go into an office. You know, they were

589
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,559
on lockdown before it was cool, not that it's ever

590
00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:10,799
been cool, but you know, they're in that situation. You know,

591
00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:14,400
you got people with gastrointestinal issues is a fun one, right,

592
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,559
somebody's got irritable bowl syndrome and they can't figure out

593
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,200
what's going on. Well, when they're in an office, everybody

594
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,559
who's also not working is looking going, hey, this guy

595
00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,119
goes the bathroom five times a day. Right, Yeah, You've

596
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,119
got people knowing your business in a way that's really uncomfortable,

597
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:31,000
and this, you know, the remote work can potentially remove

598
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:33,680
that and really, you know, create a normal life for

599
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,799
a lot of people that maybe couldn't have one otherwise.

600
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think it'll be really interesting when these

601
00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:46,119
lockdowns get lifted and to see how how many companies

602
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,759
just stay remote and sell real estate. You know what

603
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:53,240
I mean, Like there's companies spending millions of dollars for

604
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,079
you know, in these New York City and you know

605
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,720
San Francisco right like.

606
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: Or just I mean crap here in Nashville. Even some

607
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,240
of the junkie real estate here is ridiculous.

608
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:06,599
Speaker 1: You know.

609
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: I worked for a company they kind of got in

610
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,000
on the Microsoft Exam stuff early on, like you'd know

611
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:16,839
the name. And they had this crazy explosive growth and

612
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,599
then the two thousand bubble hit and so they had

613
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,480
they leased all this office space, just a tremendous you know,

614
00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:26,359
really posh offices. Like my first job out of college.

615
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,480
I worked there and I called my dad on the

616
00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:32,119
phone the first day. My dad owns his own company,

617
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,440
and I said, hey, Dad, my office is bigger than yours.

618
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:35,079
Speaker 1: Right.

619
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: They spent all this money on this, and I was

620
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,279
replacing a more qualified developer who had been in that

621
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:43,359
office and had been let go. And one of the

622
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,559
things that really sunk that company was at least yeah,

623
00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:49,079
And so there's also you know that risk. You know,

624
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:50,880
it's not like you pay month the month on a

625
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,240
business lease. It's like, you know, you're doing twenty four

626
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:58,079
months and if companies have to try to go with

627
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:01,160
demand for their services. You know, it's the same kind

628
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,440
of thing as a cloud environment, right, instead of getting

629
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,400
two rax space servers and trying to go, okay, let

630
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,519
me balance load, let me fiddle with this, it's like no,

631
00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:09,839
let me let me just get more instances when I

632
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,720
need them and then spin them down when I don't.

633
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,440
And companies can do that with office space if they

634
00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:18,680
allow remote work. And so that's an optimization that might

635
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,559
be really useful now there. You know, there are downsides

636
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,960
to it as well, right, Yeah, companies do have to

637
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,640
think about security, and there's lots of little gotchas in there. Right.

638
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,839
A lot of companies have got this attitude that I

639
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,559
have a firewall, that's all the security I need, and

640
00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:37,319
they don't have anything internally. I've worked at a couple

641
00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:40,039
of places where some salesperson came back from a conference

642
00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:42,720
with a laptop and the whole network got hit with

643
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,519
a virus. You have those kind of circumstances in the office.

644
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,559
You're going to have to fix it to allow remote work,

645
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:50,119
but you got to fix it anyway.

646
00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:52,839
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, you can't have that definitely, right that that

647
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,599
problem still exists, whether it's remote and right because people

648
00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:58,039
bring their laptops home and you know, and you want

649
00:29:58,039 --> 00:29:59,799
them to work the weekend anyways, right.

650
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: So right for free?

651
00:30:01,799 --> 00:30:05,559
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, because their salary, you know, so they're they're

652
00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:07,759
still uh, you still have that risk.

653
00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:11,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, and they talk about, you know,

654
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:12,920
well we want a content filter and we want to

655
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,640
do all this stuff. It's like, okay, well I get it,

656
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,799
you don't want viruses get loose on the network. But

657
00:30:17,839 --> 00:30:19,359
half the time they say, well we don't want somebody

658
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,559
goofing off, right, yeah, you know, reading sports are worse

659
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
on the clock. It's like, well they brought a they've

660
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,119
got a cell phone here that's more powerful than the

661
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:29,279
first computer I worked on.

662
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably more powerful than the business when you gave

663
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:37,039
them anyway, exactly, you know, I mean, because you know,

664
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:38,880
I've worked at places that they'll give you an absolute

665
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,480
potato of a computer and then think that something else

666
00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:44,319
is hurting your productivity. Yeah, yep.

667
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,079
Speaker 2: It's like I can type four keystrokes and visual studio

668
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,680
wait a minute and a half for it to show up.

669
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,119
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, yeah, saving money on it equipment for

670
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,119
developers is not a good strategy.

671
00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's not saving money and wow, that's that's true.

672
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

673
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: You know. The thing is is a lot of times

674
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:02,599
there are you know, there are traps, right, there's pitfalls

675
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:05,359
with security that a lot of companies maybe have their

676
00:31:05,359 --> 00:31:07,519
stuff together, but they don't think about Like if you

677
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:10,000
have a remote employee and they've got a laptop company

678
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,440
issued laptop in their home and you terminate them, so

679
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,079
you got to get that laptop back, you cannot trust it. Yeah,

680
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,640
until you know you've vetted, probably wiped the OS and

681
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,359
you know, done all that kind of stuff, and so

682
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,240
there are costs. I would argue that you still have

683
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:28,480
those costs in an office environment unless you're not you know,

684
00:31:28,519 --> 00:31:31,240
unless you have completely locked everything down. All somebody has

685
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,640
to do is bring in a thumb drive. But there's

686
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,319
just a lot of stuff that you know, the it

687
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,839
security people will say and it's like, well, you kind

688
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,400
of already have that problem anyway, this just exposes it,

689
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:43,440
and by the way, exposes it in a fashion that

690
00:31:43,559 --> 00:31:48,160
is cheaper to fix than you might have otherwise, because

691
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,839
you know, like, for instance, if you're doing the whole

692
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,680
you know, eggshell thing of well, my firewall protects everything

693
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,440
and everything's fine inside the firewall. If you have a

694
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,880
remote employee and you suddenly learn that, hey, this is

695
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,680
not a good idea, which you should have learned any

696
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:03,480
of the past twenty years. Right, If you have a

697
00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:06,039
remote employee, that's it's coming in and you go, I

698
00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:08,759
got to deal with security situation. Well, that's fairly cheap.

699
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,440
I deal with the security situation. However, if you get breached, that's.

700
00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: Not more expensive.

701
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you can almost think of remote employees

702
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,559
as a pressure test for your security systems, a continuous one.

703
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: One of the big pushbacks I've gotten in the past

704
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,960
has been, well, what developers work remotely? Other people will

705
00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:33,759
get you know, upset, right.

706
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,599
Speaker 2: Right, Well, and there's you know, there's some truth to that,

707
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,839
right people. You know, people get jealous of each other

708
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,480
in office environments all the time. You know, do you say, okay,

709
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,880
well developers get their own office, Well why don't I

710
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,680
get my own office? For instance? Like, well, you know,

711
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,480
we're we're demanding that these people provide value that increases

712
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,440
the value of the business, and automation is a huge value.

713
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,720
There's a reason developer salaries are as high as they are.

714
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:02,720
It's not because you know, we're all great people. And

715
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:05,160
you know, neck beards are in fashion. It's because we

716
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,279
provide value and excess of what we're getting paid, and

717
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:12,119
so you know, dealing with interpersonal type stuff like that,

718
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:14,799
it's gonna happen anyway. It's it's like the network stuff.

719
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:17,200
You know, most of the problems that you run into

720
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,079
with distributed teams are exactly the same problems that you

721
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,200
run into with local teams. It's just that there's the

722
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,160
communication channels are slower, and you have more problems that

723
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,799
show up as a result of that. One other thing

724
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:31,960
that comes up a lot is employers will be like, well,

725
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,200
we can't get everybody together for a quick meeting when

726
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,960
we need something. And most of the time that really

727
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,519
comes down to, you know, it's it's poor management practice.

728
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,559
You know. I've worked at companies where you never knew

729
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:44,400
what your day was going to be like at all.

730
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:46,720
It's like, well, my best coding time is between this

731
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,200
time and this time, you know. And you know, by

732
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,799
the way I've proved that, Like I had like a

733
00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:53,880
log of you know, everything in one hour blocks, and

734
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,519
I would go in there once an hour and write

735
00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:58,319
how I felt and what I was working on. And

736
00:33:58,359 --> 00:33:59,759
I did that for a few weeks and tracked it.

737
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:02,920
I know exactly when my best working time is, and

738
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:04,759
invariably they would stick a meeting right in the middle

739
00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,119
of it, and the meeting I had five minutes warning

740
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,239
that it was coming. Well, if you've got that kind

741
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,079
of environment, every developer is now trying to protect their

742
00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:13,880
focus and they're trying to make sure they don't lose

743
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,360
their place to go to some crazy meeting. And so

744
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,440
you've got managers doing this, well this, this makes it

745
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,480
impossible for them to do that because they may not

746
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,119
be able to get ahold of everybody that quick. You know,

747
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:24,880
I see that as a win. It gets rid of

748
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,800
a lot of broken managerial practices. It also does a

749
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,440
few other things. The way that it changes communication channels,

750
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,360
people have to over communicate, They have to overdocument or

751
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,559
document it all, which a lot of developers don't or

752
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:42,199
they you know, their documentation is really really limited or useless.

753
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,119
And when you have a distributed team, you're going to

754
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,920
have to do that because your team, you know, they

755
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,360
may just be in the local area and you may

756
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,679
be fine, but after a while they're going to spread

757
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,679
across the country. People are going to move, you know,

758
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,239
and be several time zones away. You know, like my

759
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,920
team has got people in Eastern, Central Mountain and Pacific time. Yeah,

760
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,440
we've got we got all the way across. And you

761
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,800
know some of these people like they they get to

762
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,079
work at six point thirty in the morning Eastern time. Well,

763
00:35:09,119 --> 00:35:10,639
if they need something from the guy that's on the

764
00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:13,760
West coast, you know, yeah, they're gonna they're gonna wait

765
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,679
a minute. And the same thing for the guy on

766
00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:18,519
the West coast later in the day. Yeah, you know,

767
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:20,599
those people have gone home, except for the one or

768
00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:23,639
two workaholics that you can always ask. But like that

769
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:26,440
that's a real thing, and it gets rid of this

770
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,920
this notion that I'm going to pull for the information

771
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,400
I need, and it's like I'm going to make sure

772
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,480
the information I need is there so I can just

773
00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:36,599
get it when I need it and not involve another person.

774
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,800
It also forces asynchrony in communications and you kind of

775
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,800
run into a lot of the same problems you run

776
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,199
into with code right, Like if you have and I

777
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,119
know you do node, so like this is kind of

778
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:49,199
built into node right, like is yeah, it's all a

779
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,119
sinc like file io and stuff like that. But I'm

780
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:55,039
a bit more old school developer, like you know, I

781
00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,079
started a while back. Just leave that out as far

782
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:01,199
as how far back, but let's just say that let's

783
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,000
see Clinton had just been elected and so like when

784
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,400
we did file, I, oh, it was all synchronous, right,

785
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,679
and we can make assumptions. Okay, this happens before this, right, Yeah,

786
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,480
make assumptions in the code because it was enforced. When

787
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:16,119
you switch to ACNC, you don't have that anymore, and

788
00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:17,800
so you either have to know when something's done and

789
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,360
get a result, you know, kind of like a promised

790
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:24,159
type thing, right, or you have to be really careful.

791
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,159
You have to have some kind of interlock type thing. Well,

792
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:28,639
the same thing happens to your communication flows in a

793
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:31,559
company that has gone remote. You know. Now it's like okay,

794
00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:33,880
well I can ask for something, but I can't ask

795
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,119
for something with the assumption that the timing of when

796
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:39,239
I get the answer is going to be immediate. And

797
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,280
you know, and I can't sit there dead in the

798
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,719
water while that happens. I have to ask before I

799
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,440
need it so that it's here when I need it.

800
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's always a challenge. Yeah, I agree with that.

801
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,719
I've been in places where I've worked remote, and I

802
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,519
mean worked in an office and we have a remote

803
00:36:55,519 --> 00:37:00,639
team in India. Right, Yeah, that's always a challenge itself,

804
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,119
with the time zone and getting information back past back

805
00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:04,920
and forth.

806
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 2: And the language barrier. I mean, even you know, even

807
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,119
though you know most of them that you would be

808
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:13,000
dealing with do speak English, there's people that just can't

809
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,960
understand foreign accents well, you know, for whatever reason. And

810
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:18,960
by the way, on the other end, they can't you know,

811
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,159
they're not going to understand my Hillbilly accent half the

812
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:24,800
time either, right like that that's completely fair because other

813
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,719
people in Nashville sometimes don't, So you know, I can't

814
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,599
expect somebody in you know, Kerala to to do that either.

815
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,079
And you have to think about those communication barriers and

816
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:37,559
how you're going to overcome them before you have them.

817
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,559
You know. Basically, what all this does is it forces

818
00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,679
people to be proactive all the way up and down

819
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,639
the organization, and that that's a little bit of a

820
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:48,599
culture shift, right It's it's sort of again like the

821
00:37:48,639 --> 00:37:50,880
ACYNC thing. It's like, if your code is a sync

822
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,519
at a low level, it probably can't be synchronous at

823
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:55,480
a high level. It has to go all the way

824
00:37:55,559 --> 00:37:58,440
up yep, right, the same you know, it's the same

825
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,400
kind of structural setup, and so that's something that you're

826
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,840
going to have to deal with. Now, there are a

827
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,000
few things that you do need to know as far

828
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:11,039
as convincing employers on this, because again, you're putting this

829
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:13,519
cost on them. Right, Hey, you got to rework your

830
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:17,679
process is to act like you're not a parts manufacturer

831
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:20,519
in the eighteenth century, right. You know, it's not how

832
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:22,679
many which its apparaduce, how many lines of code, it's

833
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,840
you know, we we have to provide value and access

834
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,559
to what we're doing and have systems that can actually

835
00:38:28,559 --> 00:38:31,440
determine that value. So you got to sell the idea

836
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,519
of remote work to you know, whoever you're talking to.

837
00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:38,280
And it's interesting how developers will do this because a

838
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,119
lot of developers, including developers that should know better because

839
00:38:41,159 --> 00:38:43,920
they do business apps, they'll they'll try to sell it

840
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,639
based off of what it does for them. You know, well,

841
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:48,199
I can take care of my kid. I don't have

842
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:49,920
to put the kid and take care It's like if

843
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,760
you've got a ten year old and you know the

844
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,760
ten year old's going to be sitting upstairs playing Minecraft

845
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,079
while you're working. Okay, you know, and management knows that.

846
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,639
But when you've got a screaming toddler at home, they're

847
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:02,480
not going to go for that, right because it doesn't

848
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,559
help them, it hurts them, and you just have to

849
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:08,039
think about how you're going to sell it. So I'll

850
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:11,519
relate a story that this was. This was one of

851
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:14,320
the most messed up things, especially being at a conference room. Okay,

852
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,719
So we had this developer who tried to sell remote

853
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,920
work to management, and he did it because his wife was,

854
00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:23,800
you know, trying to get business thing going, and he

855
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,519
thought that he could avoid having to pay for childcare

856
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,880
while she was doing that if he was just home.

857
00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:32,480
And you know, he's he had little kids. So they

858
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:35,320
let him work remote one day because he think he

859
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,039
said he had a doctor's appointment or something and it

860
00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:38,440
had to be at the house or I forget what

861
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,360
the deal was. So we're on our scrum meeting nine

862
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,320
o'clock in the morning. You hear Sesame Street and children

863
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,639
fighting in the background. He's periodically having to mute his

864
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,599
microphone and you can still see him on camera, which,

865
00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:51,880
by the way, if you're going to have to yell

866
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,039
at somebody on camera, kill the camera and the mic

867
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:56,800
and then do it and then turn it back on,

868
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,280
because then people will think it's a blit with zoom

869
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,280
instead of your fault. They won't know that you're screaming

870
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,719
at your young uns, right, Like you just got to think.

871
00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:05,639
Speaker 1: About that point.

872
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so that happens, right, it's like, okay, well,

873
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:11,880
you know it's first thing in the morning. He's probably

874
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,719
getting settled. That's fine. We have a board of directors

875
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,440
meeting later. And I wasn't on the board, but because

876
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,400
of my position as a software architect, I was in

877
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,679
those meetings a small company and we're all lined up

878
00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:25,960
around this table. You know, it's a conference room table.

879
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,039
We've got like the sixty inch TV yep at HD

880
00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:33,519
decent quality TV at the end of the room. We

881
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:36,039
also had a horrible audio setup with like crazy echoes

882
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:39,440
and stuff. But you know whatever. So dude has to

883
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,880
present something to the board of directors and he's talking

884
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,679
on camera about to do that, and they're like, oh,

885
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:47,400
he's working from home. It's like he had to work

886
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,760
remote today. The board kind of had a back and

887
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,679
forth about that, and then he gets on and as

888
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,840
he's talking, his cat jumps up on the keyboard and

889
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,440
presents its backside to the camera.

890
00:40:58,079 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: Wonderful, Yeah, wonderful at yeah.

891
00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:06,639
Speaker 2: Sixty inches And it was close. And so every time

892
00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:10,159
we talked about working remote from then on, that story

893
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:10,679
came up.

894
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: You know.

895
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,679
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, it's it's the concept of anchoring

896
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,039
in sales. It's like that that is now anchored to

897
00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:20,559
the back quarter of a cap. Yeah, it's really hard. Now.

898
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:23,280
I did manage to get the ability to work remote

899
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,000
like two years after that, but.

900
00:41:25,159 --> 00:41:28,079
Speaker 1: I set you back there, huh yeah, And.

901
00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: It was just like, dude, you know, And the thing

902
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,400
is that he was sitting on his couch coding all

903
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,639
day and really didn't get a whole lot done. And

904
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,960
so you can't sell it that way either. Like, one

905
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,519
thing you want to make sure you do is that

906
00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:41,840
you're set up so that when you work remote, you're

907
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,960
successful the first time and you're more productive than normal, right,

908
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,960
you want you want that to hit the numbers that

909
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:51,360
management actually uses to evaluate things. So the first thing

910
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,199
is to figure out how are they evaluating me, and

911
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,400
if they aren't evaluating me in a way that makes sense,

912
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,360
try to push them towards a more reasonable way. Of

913
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,559
evaluating me and then go work remote and prove it

914
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:05,719
versus the other thing of you know, deciding well I'm

915
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,119
going to work remote and then oh, well they don't

916
00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:10,400
think you were as productive. You think you were more productive.

917
00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:12,159
But now you have to argue about the system they're

918
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:14,719
using to measure you. Like that's back, right, you know,

919
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,880
there's a power differential there, and you want to set

920
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,960
it up so that you're on the good side of that,

921
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:21,039
not the bad, you know. And the way to do this,

922
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,760
you know, besides that part is you kind of set

923
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,559
up a trial run, right, Like you don't go the

924
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,719
first time and go, oh hey can I work you know,

925
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,800
four days a week from home, you know, come in

926
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,519
for you Friday for the free lunch, because I would

927
00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:34,840
totally do that. You don't want to start there, right,

928
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,480
because that's like that's like going on a first date

929
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:41,800
and you know, proposing, right, that's right if if it

930
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,119
works well, that works poorly, right, you know, like that

931
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,000
is not going to win the situation. So you want

932
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,320
to set up a reasonable test, like a half day

933
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,079
or a day and have a good reason for it.

934
00:42:55,159 --> 00:42:57,400
So you have a doctor's appointment close to your house, right,

935
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,519
That's one thing that God did do right, is he

936
00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:01,880
was like, hey, I'm you know, I'm forty minutes from

937
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,079
the office. My doctor's five minutes from the house. I've

938
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:06,639
got an appointment, and you know, he set it up.

939
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:08,639
I think that way where his wife had an appointment,

940
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:10,400
there was some reason he had to be home, right,

941
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,639
that was like the only smart thing he did. And

942
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,760
that's what you're going to want. And you're also going

943
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,199
to on that day, you know, make sure you over communicate,

944
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:21,599
make sure you really participate in meetings, you know, be

945
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,199
super productive. And also you're using this as a test,

946
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,440
not just for management, but you use it as a

947
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,440
test for you. You find all the stuff that's wrong.

948
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:32,159
You sit there and you go, you know, like one

949
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:34,840
of my big problems right now, especially with podcasting and

950
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,519
being on video conference calls, is the chair I'm sitting

951
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:40,079
in is really noisy. So if you notice I'm trying

952
00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:42,760
really hard not to move, well, like, you notice stuff

953
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,599
like that when you're you know, basically in that environment,

954
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:48,199
you don't want to notice that and go, oh, well,

955
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,320
you know, I've got three more days of working remote

956
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,400
this week, and then we're evaluating it. When I go

957
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,639
in Friday. Yeah, you want to have it them in

958
00:43:54,679 --> 00:43:58,000
a trial because you can't anticipate all the stuff that

959
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:02,039
will go wrong. I've learned so much about my neighbors

960
00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:05,039
since i started working remote, one hundred percent. I know

961
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:07,760
that the neighbors, you know, straight behind where I'm sitting

962
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,760
right now, for instance, their landscaping crew comes out and works,

963
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,239
and so there's loud arguments in Spanish right outside my window,

964
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,519
and then the homeowner will come out and talk to

965
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:22,639
the head person on that crew, but they don't get

966
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:25,280
anywhere close to them, which is you know, it's corona

967
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,079
season right now, which is actually reasonable, but they don't

968
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:30,760
do it anyway. So they're yelling, and there's leaf blowers,

969
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,039
and there's there's certain times a day that you're like, man,

970
00:44:33,119 --> 00:44:34,639
you know, I can't get anything done during that time.

971
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,679
You need to know that before you decide to work remote, right,

972
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:39,760
because you've got to be able to get enough work

973
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,159
done to be productive. But you might find out, you know,

974
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:47,480
stuff like well, you know, the internet speed drops off

975
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,360
in the middle of the day out here for some

976
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,760
reason because there's maybe somebody else in your house running

977
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,920
a torrent and you don't know it.

978
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, or I found when the kids, you know, the

979
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,000
school buses come by, right, the high school bus, right,

980
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,239
you'll get you'll get to drop down.

981
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:05,559
Speaker 2: That that is at ten after three.

982
00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:07,559
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

983
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 2: I know because they are yelling back and forth at

984
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,360
each other when they walk by my window, like right

985
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,440
right there. You'll learn about all that kind of stuff.

986
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,320
You may also learn that, you know, when you're normally

987
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,280
in an office, you're kept awake, and there's certain times

988
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,440
a day that it's really hard to stay awake. You

989
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,239
may not be getting enough sleep and you've been getting

990
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,119
away with it in an office because you have free

991
00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:32,800
coffee and it's not home, and there's other people talking

992
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:34,920
and moving around, and all of a sudden you're home

993
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,639
and you find out, man, you know, six hours of

994
00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:40,519
sleep isn't enough sleep for a night. You may find

995
00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:42,880
that your workspace hurts you. You know, if you're sitting

996
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,239
at a kitchen table, it's not gonna go well, you're

997
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,559
gonna you're gonna eventually have problems from that, you know.

998
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:49,639
I have I have a desk here. I've got you know,

999
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:53,440
the full like executive L shaped desk, and it is

1000
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,679
completely full of equipment because the podcast and I've got

1001
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,880
my personal computer, and I've got a work computer and

1002
00:45:59,119 --> 00:46:02,320
surround sound system, microphone, KBM switch, you know, all this

1003
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:03,880
stuff is wired in. I had to even do a

1004
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,360
wiring diagram to figure out how many, you know, which

1005
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,119
cables I had to get and when I started working

1006
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:12,119
for this company. And you're going to have to take

1007
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,440
those steps because you want to be successful and you

1008
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,679
want to make it so that environmental disruptions don't make

1009
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:19,920
it where you lose your ability to work remote. There's

1010
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,519
nothing worse than you know, pushing for it and then

1011
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,440
getting to do it, and you know, a week or

1012
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,000
two in all of a sudden you can't just because

1013
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,840
you know, fate intervened. That's a pretty horrible feeling. And

1014
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,639
so you're gonna have to You're gonna have to think

1015
00:46:33,679 --> 00:46:37,159
about stuff like, you know, again, your workspace, your your computer.

1016
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:39,480
If you're having to use a personal computer for work,

1017
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,840
don't buy an underpowered four hundred dollars computer. Buy real computer.

1018
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,119
It's yours worst case, you know, buy really overpowered when

1019
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,400
and put the work stuff on a VM so that

1020
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,679
they can't mess with your your main you know, gaming

1021
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,639
rig during off hours, right, because that's not cool, you know,

1022
00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:57,079
I worked for a company that did that, and they

1023
00:46:57,079 --> 00:46:59,960
were like, why did you install eve online? It's because

1024
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:06,039
it's my computer. Yeah, you know, like you're spending all

1025
00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:08,000
this time to pay this guy to come yell at

1026
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,920
me when you could have just gotten me a computer

1027
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:13,360
that would let me do my job. You have to

1028
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,239
think about your your desk and your seating because you're

1029
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,119
you know, your your high end is in this chair

1030
00:47:18,159 --> 00:47:20,159
for eight hours a day. So you don't go get

1031
00:47:20,159 --> 00:47:22,280
a cheap, you know, ninety nine dollars chair, you probably

1032
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,960
get a decent one, which I need to do again

1033
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,960
because this one's starting to kind of wear on me.

1034
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,199
You have to think about things like your time tracking,

1035
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,159
like how are you going to you know, make sure

1036
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:33,760
that you're doing the work that you're supposed to do

1037
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,280
and that you've put in a full day's worth of

1038
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,639
work and not over it. Because it's real easy to

1039
00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:39,559
get up in the morning and go, well, I don't

1040
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:41,159
really know what time I came down here, I'm going

1041
00:47:41,199 --> 00:47:43,639
to start working and I'm going to be done when

1042
00:47:43,639 --> 00:47:45,360
I'm done. Well, you may be done at noon, you

1043
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,400
may be done at ten thirty at night, and you

1044
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,599
start at six in the morning, like Neither of those

1045
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:52,840
is healthy, you know, for your continued success. So you've

1046
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,840
got to think about, you know, your time tracking, even

1047
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,679
if the company you work for doesn't think about it,

1048
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,199
like you have to. You have to build a out

1049
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:03,079
of habits. So I'm I'm up at five point thirty

1050
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,440
in the morning, the coffee is ready at ten. After

1051
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,960
six coffee pots, you'll set Like I said, it's the

1052
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,159
slowest freaking.

1053
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,039
Speaker 1: I was going to say, that's pretty slow, but yeah, I.

1054
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:13,599
Speaker 2: Mean it's it's on a timer and so kick on

1055
00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:16,239
at a certain point and it's basically timed so that

1056
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:19,440
when I go in the kitchen after walking the dogs,

1057
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,119
I have a pot of coffee ready, and I tweaked

1058
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:24,280
it and figured out exactly when that is. So it's

1059
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,400
like beeping as I walked in the room because I'm

1060
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,719
you know, that's I'm probably a little bit more inorretentive

1061
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,679
about that than I should be. You got to think

1062
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:33,079
about stuff like how are you going to synchronize files

1063
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:35,719
and notes, like especially if you have a work computer

1064
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,719
that you're remoting into and you know, like I had,

1065
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,440
I used to have four screens on my desktop. Well

1066
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,079
I couldn't really do that over the VPN connection. I

1067
00:48:45,119 --> 00:48:47,480
can only do like two and it worked well. So

1068
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,360
it's like, well, I've got these other two screens up top,

1069
00:48:49,679 --> 00:48:52,599
I got remote desktop across the bottom. I can get

1070
00:48:52,639 --> 00:48:54,599
notes over, but how am I going to swap them

1071
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:56,880
back and forth successfully? You know, you may have to

1072
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,920
think about things like that. You also need to think

1073
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,400
about your phone. Either you you know, you give work

1074
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,239
your cell phone number and risk them calling you at

1075
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,559
inopportune times, or you have to get a work phone.

1076
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:09,039
You know, like the IP phones. You've got to make

1077
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:12,280
sure that you have some way to communicate that can

1078
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,559
get on the network and can work with the rest

1079
00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:17,320
of the systems. Although developers is not as important right

1080
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,679
because we typically have gotten away from phone based stuff,

1081
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,519
but a lot of people haven't. You need to think

1082
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:25,000
about your webcam and headset. A lot of people will

1083
00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:27,719
go and they'll buy like a twenty dollars headset and

1084
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,639
the cheapest webcam they can. It looks like crap. It

1085
00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:34,039
sounds like crap on the meetings and when upper management

1086
00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:36,159
is listening to you talk and they can't understand what

1087
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:41,119
you're saying because you sound you know, you're water well,

1088
00:49:41,159 --> 00:49:42,840
you sound like you know one of the chipmunks and

1089
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,079
your you know, your video camera is a piece of crap,

1090
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,119
and your internet connection to a piece of crap too,

1091
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:51,039
So like you're moving around like max headroom like that.

1092
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:54,280
That is not a comforting thing for management. So it's

1093
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,320
worth it to go. You know, I got a nice logitech.

1094
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,320
I mean I have multiple headsets here because you'll be

1095
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,079
in a podcast. Kind of changes your whole view on equipment.

1096
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,679
But you need to have that in place and to

1097
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,360
be thinking about that. You know, the trick with with

1098
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:09,519
equipping your office well is you're probably not gonna be

1099
00:50:09,519 --> 00:50:11,840
able to write it off in taxes. You're spending that

1100
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,159
money and it's out of your own pocket, and yeah,

1101
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,719
that sucks, but when you think about the cost of

1102
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,239
driving into an office, you're still coming out ahead.

1103
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:20,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.

1104
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:23,559
Speaker 2: So anyway, once you've kind of got all that worked out,

1105
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:25,800
you know, you do the whole thing of multiple trial

1106
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,880
run days. Right, So you've gotten one, you found the problems,

1107
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,159
you fix them. You do the next one, find the

1108
00:50:31,159 --> 00:50:32,760
problems and fix it, and eventually you get it where

1109
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,559
it's smooth. Then you can ask to do it on

1110
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:38,840
a regular basis because at that point you have proof

1111
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,239
you've got numbers, you know what does and does not work,

1112
00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:44,119
and you know whether you actually want to do it

1113
00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:46,159
or not. One thing that a lot of people have

1114
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,840
figured out here recently is that they don't like remote work.

1115
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,199
It's isolating. When I first started, I thought everything was fine.

1116
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,760
You know, the only conversations I had were talking to

1117
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,000
my wife and talking to the dog, and that was it.

1118
00:51:02,519 --> 00:51:04,679
And then there was one day I went to a

1119
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,400
gas station for some fried chicken because I'm healthy like that,

1120
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,360
and the gal behind the counter asked me how I

1121
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,119
was doing, and I told her at length, and then

1122
00:51:14,159 --> 00:51:17,360
I was like, Okay, that's probably a sign that I

1123
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,079
need to fix some stuff, because that's not normal. And

1124
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,559
that isolation. It really, it'll creep up on you after

1125
00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:25,599
a while, even though you may think you don't like

1126
00:51:25,639 --> 00:51:28,920
other people. Like everybody's learning that right now, that everybody's

1127
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,960
got a minimum level of social contact that they need

1128
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,039
and nobody's getting it. Yeah, so you're going to have

1129
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:37,159
to be prepared for that. One another thing that I've

1130
00:51:37,199 --> 00:51:40,079
noticed is getting stuck in a bad job. The worst

1131
00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:42,920
job I've ever had I was remote four days a week,

1132
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,159
and that's for a variety of reasons. A lot of

1133
00:51:45,159 --> 00:51:48,159
that was just because the company was bad. You know,

1134
00:51:48,199 --> 00:51:51,519
they were not run well, they didn't respect employees time,

1135
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,119
they had a lot of really dysfunctional processes. And I

1136
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:57,360
stayed at that job. You know, I think there was

1137
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,199
there was one day in September that I was like,

1138
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,159
you know what, I'm getting out of there, and like

1139
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:05,440
when I went into the office I cleaned all my

1140
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,559
stuff out of my desk that day. I didn't quit

1141
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:12,119
until March. Wow, because it was it was hard to

1142
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:14,719
find something else. And that's a risk if you you know,

1143
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,079
if you work remote, it takes a while longer. So

1144
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:18,519
once you start going, hey, I need to get out

1145
00:52:18,519 --> 00:52:20,679
of this job, you better start getting that resume out

1146
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,239
because you'll be sitting there if you don't. You have

1147
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,519
to think about what happens if they force you to

1148
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:28,159
go back into the office because you know, management gets

1149
00:52:28,159 --> 00:52:30,679
in a snit, or you know one of your coworkers

1150
00:52:31,199 --> 00:52:33,119
doesn't do what they're supposed to do, they get fired,

1151
00:52:33,159 --> 00:52:34,719
and then they say, hey, everybody else has to be

1152
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,039
back in the office because you know, it happened one

1153
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:38,639
time and we're never going to let it happen again.

1154
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:40,400
You got to think about what you're going to say

1155
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,400
on that. That also means, you know, if you're going

1156
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,079
to say no, I'm not going back in, well do

1157
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:47,719
you have enough runway? And you're checking account to go, yeah,

1158
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,400
I'm not doing that until I get something else. Otherwise

1159
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,280
you're forced back in. And you know, the the thing

1160
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,159
about being forced back into the office that's really insidious

1161
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,519
is a lot of people, you know, myself included in

1162
00:52:59,559 --> 00:53:03,280
previous ops, will negotiate for remote work, you know, kind

1163
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,960
of in lieu of a salary increase, because say I'm

1164
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,360
saving a bunch of money and you know a salary increase, well,

1165
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,199
uncle Sam gets half of that, but any savings I get,

1166
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,760
I get that right. So it's easier to work that

1167
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,280
way than the other way, and it works out better

1168
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:17,800
for the company too. But you negotiate that you get

1169
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,320
to work from home, and then they say, oh, you

1170
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,519
got to come into the office, Like what do you do?

1171
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:24,119
Then well they just you know, they basically went back

1172
00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:26,599
on a decision and an agreement that they made with you.

1173
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:29,239
What's your reaction and you need to know what that

1174
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,280
is before that happens, because it's it's really it could

1175
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,480
be pretty awful i'll see. Another thing that happens is

1176
00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:38,679
sometimes you can be a second class citizen. How you're

1177
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:40,960
working remote. You know, we don't care about, you know,

1178
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,880
the fact that your kid, you know, needs to get

1179
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,719
on the bus at eight o'clock in the morning. It's like, okay,

1180
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,360
I want to have a seven year old standing by

1181
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:51,199
busy highway waiting on a bus right right. You have

1182
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,199
to be comfortable asserting, Hey, I cannot do this, this

1183
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,840
is a bad idea, this is destructive. You know, I'm

1184
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,320
not going to take a call at ten o'clock at

1185
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,440
night and be expected to be up at six the

1186
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,760
next morning. You're going to have to be at that

1187
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,159
point where you can deal with those things, and a

1188
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:08,400
lot of people aren't. A lot of employers aren't either,

1189
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,480
or they don't think about it. One of the big

1190
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,000
things is the time zone difference. You know, for every

1191
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:15,920
hour of time zone difference you have, there's an hour

1192
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,159
at the end of the day, at an hour at

1193
00:54:17,159 --> 00:54:19,119
the beginning of the day where not all your staff

1194
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:22,079
is on. If you get to what two or three

1195
00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:25,639
hours difference, Now, the optimal meeting time for one group

1196
00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:28,119
is the lunchtime for the other group, or they aren't

1197
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:31,480
there at all. Yeah, and so it gets more and

1198
00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:34,079
more pathological the more it spreads out. And companies aren't

1199
00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:36,320
prepared for this either, and so you're going to have

1200
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,519
to help them get there because you're the one that

1201
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:40,559
wants to work remote. So you've got to help them

1202
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:42,679
figure it out. And I don't know how we're doing

1203
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:43,880
on time. If we're running over.

1204
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: Or under, probably we probably should wrap it up pretty soon.

1205
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,119
I think we're going a little over. But it's been

1206
00:54:49,119 --> 00:54:51,880
a good conversation for sure, and something that we definitely

1207
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,440
need to as a as a whole world, need to

1208
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:55,159
think about now.

1209
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know, and I will say the thought

1210
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:00,800
process is going to be ongoing.

1211
00:55:01,159 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: Right.

1212
00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:06,079
Speaker 2: The way you plan projects is going to change because

1213
00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:07,719
you can't get everybody in a room and hash it

1214
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,199
out necessarily. You know, all that stuff becomes async. Your

1215
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,480
project manager suddenly can't just ping you whenever they need something.

1216
00:55:14,519 --> 00:55:16,880
They've got to have systems in place so they can

1217
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:18,599
tell what you need, and you have to make sure

1218
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:20,639
that those systems are up to date. I've worked at

1219
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:23,360
companies that they had some internal system that was written

1220
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,159
in a desktop app that was just ancient and just

1221
00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:29,960
the stuff that happens when people start working remote. They

1222
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,519
start filling in that system with more detail, right, And

1223
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:35,000
that seems good except for the fact that that's the

1224
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,519
system that the developers use and that's the system that

1225
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:40,719
the CEO uses. So I had one where a developer

1226
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,519
filled in, you know, here's the endpoint I set up,

1227
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:47,039
here's the HTTP verbs you know, for these different methods,

1228
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,159
and they put it in the ticket. The other devs

1229
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,199
are going to use that information, but the CEO is

1230
00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:55,320
poking around in there and they sees HTTP verbs, we

1231
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,679
should be using HTTPS And we had a BUCI compliance

1232
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:04,559
meeting out of that. Yeah, like the you know, the

1233
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:07,679
thing is is you're you're adding energy to a system

1234
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,639
that you don't understand, and so you're gonna have to

1235
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:13,159
do that with a little bit of care and caution

1236
00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:15,719
going in. And so that's that's the stuff I tried

1237
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,519
to deal with in the book. So if anybody's interested

1238
00:56:19,519 --> 00:56:23,239
in the book, probably the best way to find chapters

1239
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,519
of it or find information about it is to go

1240
00:56:25,559 --> 00:56:28,880
to simple programmer dot com and search for Will Gant

1241
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,920
and you can see the you know, the articles I've

1242
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,119
posted there, and that will kind of get you into

1243
00:56:33,159 --> 00:56:35,280
the pipeline to be able to get the book. It's

1244
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,559
coming out at the end of April. Cool, Yeah, we should, uh,

1245
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:43,280
we should push the picks. I know we briefly mentioned

1246
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,559
that to you. I can start if you want to,

1247
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:48,679
uh just like, is it just technology or can we

1248
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,559
so we can definitely branch out. It's it's anything a

1249
00:56:52,599 --> 00:56:57,679
book game, you know. Really, I've picked everything from like uh,

1250
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,119
lemon that you put in water, you know that comes

1251
00:57:01,119 --> 00:57:06,559
in packets, right, or you know, to anything, anything and everything. Yeah,

1252
00:57:06,599 --> 00:57:09,840
there's there's no real limit on it for sure. Well

1253
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,599
I would uh, you know, I guess it would be

1254
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:16,920
more of a shout out to Yeah, absolutely to Korean grandmothers,

1255
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,280
which I obviously don't have one with my accent. But

1256
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,239
I went to the international market right as this coronavirus

1257
00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:25,599
outbreak was happening, and you know, I make my own kimchi,

1258
00:57:26,159 --> 00:57:29,079
and so like, I have like the basket full of

1259
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:30,880
you know, all the cabbage and all this stuff, and

1260
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,679
I'm you know, getting ready, and one of them saw me,

1261
00:57:33,679 --> 00:57:35,960
It's like, are you making kimchi? And I'm like yeah,

1262
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:39,079
And I ended up cornered in the international market for

1263
00:57:39,159 --> 00:57:42,760
a good thirty minutes with three Korean grandmothers going back

1264
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,199
and forth on how I needed to make it and

1265
00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:46,079
what I need to put in it, and like I'm

1266
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:50,199
like taking notes. I'm like, this is the best thing ever.

1267
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,039
Speaker 1: That's great.

1268
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm like, this is you know, this

1269
00:57:53,719 --> 00:57:55,679
is one of those stories that like you wouldn't believe

1270
00:57:55,719 --> 00:57:58,599
a hillbilly like me with with a making kimchi, but

1271
00:57:58,639 --> 00:58:01,320
then be like in a serious conversation about the relative

1272
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,760
merits of different regional methods of doing that. And I

1273
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,599
just thought that was so awesome, you know, like that's

1274
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:09,039
that's what we're going to come out with after this

1275
00:58:09,119 --> 00:58:12,480
whole coronavirus thing is over, is we're going to realize

1276
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,239
that we're connected to other people.

1277
00:58:14,639 --> 00:58:18,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this this this world got a whole lot smaller, you.

1278
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:20,719
Speaker 2: Know, I did. And you know, some of the best

1279
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:24,000
things I've seen out of people, you know, have happened

1280
00:58:24,079 --> 00:58:26,440
here recently between that and the tornado we had here

1281
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,960
in Nashville. You know, some of the best actions of

1282
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,559
people I've seen, you know have been in response to that,

1283
00:58:32,079 --> 00:58:34,159
and some of the worst have too, but you know,

1284
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:37,079
you always see the worst, and so yeah, just a

1285
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:40,079
just a huge shout out for you know, people that

1286
00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:41,639
are willing to take time out of their day to

1287
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:45,239
help a random stranger that they'll probably never meet again

1288
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:48,480
like that. That was absolutely awesome and the Kimshi was

1289
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,239
a little too hot. I made it, but I can

1290
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:56,440
tweet that later. Good advice otherwise, Yeah, you know where

1291
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,039
to go, right, you know, I know exactly what I need.

1292
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's awesome, all right, So I'll do my picks.

1293
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,119
I guess I'll I picked this before on the Freelancer show,

1294
00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:11,440
The Tiger King. I'll definitely give a shout out to

1295
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:15,239
that because that is a life changing documentary and there's

1296
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,000
a lot of fun I'll also pick out. I've been

1297
00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:20,840
working a lot with the State Management Library n g

1298
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,320
x S. I've been working like that for a while

1299
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,039
and it's it's a newer version came out pretty recently

1300
00:59:27,079 --> 00:59:30,280
and it's I really enjoy it, which is good for

1301
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,320
State Management because you know, a lot of it feels

1302
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,119
just like a waste, but now it's it's going well

1303
00:59:36,159 --> 00:59:40,559
and I enjoy using that. Those are my Yeah, it's

1304
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,400
it was written for Angular from the ground up, as

1305
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,760
opposed to just a direct copy of reducts so they

1306
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,719
bring some more of the and and there's less boiler

1307
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,800
plate as opposed to other state management libraries, which is nice. Yeah,

1308
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,159
it's it's it's been working out really well for me.

1309
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:01,920
So all right, I I think that wraps up our show.

1310
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,440
Thanks for everyone listening. We'll see you guys on the

1311
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,159
next episode.

1312
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 2: Already