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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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<v Speaker 1>where we left off with the Kathy Rumler transcripts. Question understood.

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<v Speaker 1>I will now mark as majority Exhibit three. Another email

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<v Speaker 1>bates stamp EFTA zero two three eight three four nine.

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<v Speaker 1>One question while is getting passed around and you review it.

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<v Speaker 1>This is at the top from yourself, Kathy Rumler to

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Epstein on Thursday October twenty third, twenty fourteen. And

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<v Speaker 1>I'll give you a second to review it. Answer, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm ready. Question. So this appears to me to be

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<v Speaker 1>your statement declining to be considered a candidate for the

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney General of the United States? Is that correct? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>It was something that I was contemplating. Ultimately, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>provide a statement. The White House issued a statement. Question, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. So, notwithstanding that you did not ultimately provide

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<v Speaker 1>a statement, as you mentioned, at this point, you've been

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<v Speaker 1>engaged with mister Epstein for three or so odd months.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been engaged with mister Epstein four three or so

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<v Speaker 1>odd months. Obviously he had an interest in your next

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<v Speaker 1>role due to the client you were potentially going to

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<v Speaker 1>be representing that was mutual to him. Is it not

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<v Speaker 1>odd that you're providing a draft statement of declining to

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<v Speaker 1>be Attorney General of the US to someone you met

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<v Speaker 1>three months ago? Answer not, Given his relationship with the client.

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<v Speaker 1>That again, he was really the primary adviser to the client,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was the secondary. I mean I was a lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>but he was the primary advisor. And I believe I

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<v Speaker 1>was actually in Geneva at the time when I sent this.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the client has gone through the not easy

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do, which is to transfer a very significant matter.

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<v Speaker 1>There had already been a ton of work done by

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<v Speaker 1>a prior law firm in the United States and a

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<v Speaker 1>Swiss law firm. Millions of dollars in legal fees had

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<v Speaker 1>been spent. They had gone through the process of basically

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<v Speaker 1>telling those law firms you're no longer working on this matter,

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<v Speaker 1>transferring the whole file over to Latham Watkins. I was

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<v Speaker 1>in Geneva at the time. It was an intense period

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<v Speaker 1>of time for me because I was trying to decide

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<v Speaker 1>what the right thing to do was, whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>I should go ahead and say yes, I'm willing to

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<v Speaker 1>be nominated or as I ultimately decided was to decline,

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<v Speaker 1>and so it was very natural to give me this

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<v Speaker 1>role with the client. And the fact I literally was

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<v Speaker 1>in Geneva with the client at the time. I think

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<v Speaker 1>I can say this because it's in the draft statement

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<v Speaker 1>I said, I was so informed the president when I

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<v Speaker 1>did that. When I informed the President, I actually did it.

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<v Speaker 1>I was in Geneva, and so I didn't think that

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<v Speaker 1>was unnatural at all. Question. I understand that. However, I

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<v Speaker 1>think where my confusion lies in this is that you

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<v Speaker 1>could have simply just told mister Epstein or the client

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<v Speaker 1>at the time. I'm weighing this, I'll let you know

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<v Speaker 1>what I decide. But it seems like sending a draft

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<v Speaker 1>statement of in this case declining the role, but even

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<v Speaker 1>if it was in the inverse of accepting the role

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<v Speaker 1>to someone you just met three months ago, strikes me

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<v Speaker 1>as odd. And don't you find that odd? Answer? Well, again,

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<v Speaker 1>this was not something that was confidential. It was all

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<v Speaker 1>over the press. Question understood answer. There was massive speculation

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<v Speaker 1>about who who was going to succeed Eric Holder, who

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<v Speaker 1>could be confirmed. There were members of the Senate who

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<v Speaker 1>are making comments, well, this person, I wouldn't support this

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<v Speaker 1>person I would support. This was not like this was

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<v Speaker 1>a very public matter. And again, within the first six

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<v Speaker 1>weeks or so of restarting my legal practice, I had

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<v Speaker 1>gotten this engagement for a very significant for a big

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<v Speaker 1>Swiss bank in a very significant matter, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>that it was important. It was very important to the bank,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was also important to me because it was

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<v Speaker 1>one of my first new matters after coming back into

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<v Speaker 1>private practice, and so I wanted to make sure that,

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<v Speaker 1>given the Epstein was a primary advisor, that he was

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<v Speaker 1>informed in what was going to happen. So I could

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<v Speaker 1>have done it that way, the way you described it,

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<v Speaker 1>but I didn't. If Jeffrey Epstein weren't the notorious Jeffrey Epstein,

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<v Speaker 1>that's causing you guys to have spent countless hours going

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<v Speaker 1>through my emails, which I apologized for. You wouldn't even

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<v Speaker 1>be asking me about this, right And so it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>but at the time when I'm dealing with them, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that he's in prison or the person who's

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<v Speaker 1>who the world understands him now to be question understood.

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<v Speaker 1>Switching gears just a little bit. Have you ever maintained

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<v Speaker 1>an account with JP Morgan Chase Bank answer yes. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>and when did you first open an account at JP

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<v Speaker 1>Morgan Chase Bank? Roughly answer while I was working at

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<v Speaker 1>Latham and Watkins, so twenty sixteen seventeen. I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 1>But in that twenty sixteen seventeen eighteen kind of frame question,

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<v Speaker 1>are you aware of mister Epstein reaching out to JP

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<v Speaker 1>Morgan on your behalf? Answer? I am now, yes question,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're aware now because they're reviewing documents released by

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<v Speaker 1>the DOJ or other means. Answer, I've seen the documents

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<v Speaker 1>that show that he asked his executive assistant to reach

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<v Speaker 1>out to JP Morgan on my behalf and those were

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<v Speaker 1>not documents that I would have seen at the time questions. So,

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<v Speaker 1>to be clear, you didn't ask mister Epstein to reach

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<v Speaker 1>out to JP Morgan on your behalf answer, I did not.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, what happened. What I did ask him about

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<v Speaker 1>was I had a banking relationship at Merrill Lynch, and

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<v Speaker 1>having spent the vast majority of my career in public service,

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<v Speaker 1>I candidly just never really paid much attention. I certainly

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<v Speaker 1>didn't pay attention to investments because I didn't have any

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<v Speaker 1>money to invest, and so after a couple of years

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<v Speaker 1>at Latham, I had some money to invest, and I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know whether or not my investment performance was good

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<v Speaker 1>or bad. And mister Epstein was a finance genius and

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<v Speaker 1>so allegedly and so and he certainly was. My belief

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<v Speaker 1>was that he was advising people billionaires right, certainly of

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<v Speaker 1>the roth Child's. And so I asked him, do you

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<v Speaker 1>think this performance is good basically from my portfolio? And

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<v Speaker 1>he said, in essence, it sucks. The market's been up

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<v Speaker 1>this amount and you've only been up this amount, and

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<v Speaker 1>you're paying these really high fees and this is ridiculous,

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<v Speaker 1>and you didn't pay attention to it. And man's plain,

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<v Speaker 1>man's plain, man's plain. In his circumstance, it was appropriate

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<v Speaker 1>man's planning. And so he said, you need a real bank,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, the head of the private banker, the head

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<v Speaker 1>of the asset and wealth management or something at JP Morgan,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'll have her call you. And I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>that ridiculous, because I'm a little tiny peon with I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not even sure whether I qualify. I don't even know.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what their threshold was. But I like

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that someone at that level of seniority was

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<v Speaker 1>going to pay attention. It was sort of insulting. I

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<v Speaker 1>thought to even ask to pay attention to me, but

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<v Speaker 1>he took it upon himself to do that, and ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>I did meet with a lovely young woman banker at

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<v Speaker 1>JP Morgan and I opened an account with JP Morgan. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you aware at the time that mister Epstein otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>rocky relationship with JP Morgan Chase Bank? Answer? I had

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<v Speaker 1>no idea about that, mister Grant. Have you subsequently become

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<v Speaker 1>aware of that rocky relationship? Ms? Rumer? I subsequently became

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<v Speaker 1>aware at some point that he had been a client

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<v Speaker 1>at the bank, which I didn't know, and that he

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<v Speaker 1>had been exited from the bank where they had told

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<v Speaker 1>him that they were going to close his accounts. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know either of those things. Question, mister Grant. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>now mark as majority. Exhibit four. Another email from the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein files Transparency Act bates stamped EFTA zero two, five, one, three, seven,

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<v Speaker 1>three to two while it's being passed around. The top

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<v Speaker 1>of the email is from Jeffrey Epstein to yourself, Kathy

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<v Speaker 1>Rumler on Tuesday, January twentieth, twenty fifteen. I'll give you

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<v Speaker 1>all a moment to review. Answer. This didn't take long

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<v Speaker 1>to review, so I'm ready whenever you are. Question. The

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<v Speaker 1>middle of the message is to yourself sending mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>a birthday message to say, happy birthday. I hope you

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy the day with your one true love. Who are

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<v Speaker 1>you referring to as is one true love? Answer himself?

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<v Speaker 1>Question and as a response to you, was they say

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<v Speaker 1>that men usually give a nim to their penis, as

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<v Speaker 1>it would be inappropriate to make love to a total stranger.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer yes, Question What was the point of this response

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<v Speaker 1>to your knowledge or understanding? Answer? Idiocy? Question and do

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<v Speaker 1>you understand what mister Epstein was trying to make a

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<v Speaker 1>reference to or talk about. Answer he was making a

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<v Speaker 1>stupid joke. And I actually responded to this email. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if you have the response, but I do

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<v Speaker 1>have the response. I remember what I said to him.

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<v Speaker 1>Question what was your response? Answer? In essence, I said,

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard to believe that there's still a debate that

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<v Speaker 1>men are the inferior gender. I stand by that response,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly in response to this email. Question understood, do you

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<v Speaker 1>have any other conversations of a similar nature with mister

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein where he's bringing up graphic words more specifically, is genitulia. Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>While he's not referring to his genitallia, he's making a

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<v Speaker 1>dumb joke about men, and I responded. I responded in kind,

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<v Speaker 1>basically saying this is a dumb joke. Question understood, switching

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<v Speaker 1>gears completely, mister Fishman, as you should. Question. Have you

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<v Speaker 1>ever traveled with Jeffrey Epstein? Answer? I have not question,

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<v Speaker 1>and I believe you stated earlier. But just to be clear,

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<v Speaker 1>did you not take that twenty fifteen trip to Paris

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<v Speaker 1>with mister Epstein? Answer? I did not question. And did

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<v Speaker 1>you take a twenty seventeen trip to the US Virgin

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<v Speaker 1>Islands with mister Epstein? Answer no question. Have you been

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<v Speaker 1>to any of mister Epstein's other New York apartments, not

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<v Speaker 1>including his townhouse? Answer no question. Have you been to

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein's Palm Beach House, answer no question. Have you

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<v Speaker 1>been to the New Mexico otherwise known as the Zoro Ranch?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer I have not question. Have you been to Little

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<v Speaker 1>Saint James Island? Answer no question. Have you been to

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<v Speaker 1>Great Saint James Island? Answer no question. Have you been

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<v Speaker 1>to mister Epstein's Paris apartment. Answer yes. Question when did

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<v Speaker 1>you visit mister Epstein's Paris apartment. Answer I don't remember

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<v Speaker 1>the exact date, but Miss Rothschild and I attended a

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<v Speaker 1>lunch meeting together with Epstein in his dining room in

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<v Speaker 1>the Paris apartment. Question is that the only time that

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<v Speaker 1>you went there? Answer yes. Question was anyone else there

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<v Speaker 1>other than you and Miss Rothschild? Answer? I believe youata

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<v Speaker 1>chef and the chef was there, and my recollection is

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<v Speaker 1>that the ye also served the food and there was

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<v Speaker 1>some fanfare. Whatever was served. I don't remember what it was,

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<v Speaker 1>but whatever the food, I believe the chef was French

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<v Speaker 1>and it was French cuisine of some type. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>have you ever been to a Boston rental apartment owned

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<v Speaker 1>release by mister Epstein? Answer no. Did you ever observe

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<v Speaker 1>any massage tables at any of mister Epstein's properties that

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<v Speaker 1>you have visited? Answered no. Question Did you notice any

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<v Speaker 1>unusual photographs in mister Epstein's homes or apartments? Answer photographs

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<v Speaker 1>questions such as nude paintings, nude photos displayed anywhere? Answer no.

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<v Speaker 1>Question in the time that you knew and dealt with

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein. Do you know how many assistants that he had? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know. I knew that he had a number

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<v Speaker 1>of staff who did different things exactly what they did,

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't sure I observed the number of personal staff

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<v Speaker 1>and when I say personal staff, staff who were present

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<v Speaker 1>at the town home in New York. Question I think

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<v Speaker 1>this was also covered earlier. But have you ever traveled

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<v Speaker 1>on any aircraft with mister Epstein, including the ones owned

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<v Speaker 1>and operated by the Answer? No, question, switching gears completely again,

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<v Speaker 1>did you ever visit mister Epstein at the Metropolitan Correctional

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<v Speaker 1>Center in twenty nineteen? Answer? No, I did not question,

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<v Speaker 1>and this was also I think I mentioned a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of different times in an earlier hour, but just to

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<v Speaker 1>have it clearly in one place on the transcript, in

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<v Speaker 1>one form, not the final form of mister Epstein's Last

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<v Speaker 1>Will and Testament, you were listed as a successor executor.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that correct? Answer my understanding. I was a backup

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<v Speaker 1>executor on a draft a draft will. Question and you

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<v Speaker 1>know why you were listed as the backup executor? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't question. Were you ever informed of your designation

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<v Speaker 1>into the Last Will and Testament? Answer? I don't believe so.

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<v Speaker 1>Question and can you remind us when you were first

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<v Speaker 1>hired at Goldman Sachs. Answer, I accepted the offer, I

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<v Speaker 1>believe in February of twenty twenty, and I started at

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<v Speaker 1>the firm. I started at Goldman Sachs in April of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty. Question and as part of your hiring and

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<v Speaker 1>or onboarding at Goldman Sachs, did you have to disclose

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<v Speaker 1>any part of your prior relationship with mister Epstein? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I did not have to. Question did you answer? I

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<v Speaker 1>chose to disclose it. Question and what did you disclose? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I disclosed that before I accepted the offer, I told

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<v Speaker 1>the firm. I told Goldman Sachs that while I was

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<v Speaker 1>the White House counsel, I was in charge of vetting.

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<v Speaker 1>That was one of my responsibilities that we didn't talk

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<v Speaker 1>about earlier. So I was responsible for vetting Cabinet secretaries

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<v Speaker 1>and other senior officials. And I told them that before

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<v Speaker 1>I accept the offer, I've done my own vet and

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<v Speaker 1>I've had an active practice, an active criminal practice. And

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<v Speaker 1>so here are some of the representations that I think

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<v Speaker 1>the representations or associations, etc. That I think could cause

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<v Speaker 1>media attention Goldman Sachs was a high profile firm, and

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<v Speaker 1>so I said that I knew Epstein, that I had

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<v Speaker 1>communicated with Epstein, that I had dealt with Epstein. He

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<v Speaker 1>was not my client, but that he was a primary

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<v Speaker 1>adviser to my client, and that he had asked my Well,

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<v Speaker 1>he wasn't my client, he would certainly ask my views

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<v Speaker 1>on things from time to time. So I basically described

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<v Speaker 1>in essence what I described for you today. Question, thank you?

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<v Speaker 1>When we're concerns if your ties to mister Epstein first

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<v Speaker 1>raised internally at Goldman Sachs. Answer by whom? Question anyone

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<v Speaker 1>internal to Goldman Sachs, Miss Fishman, anyone that you might

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<v Speaker 1>know question correct, anyone that you might know about that

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<v Speaker 1>would have raised concerns internally. I can ask more specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>when were concerns expressed to you from the chief executive

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<v Speaker 1>officer about your ties with mister Epstein. Answer, I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>characterize it as concerns. I'd characterize it. So I believe

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<v Speaker 1>before I accepted the offer, I said, this is the vet.

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<v Speaker 1>I did my own vet. Also, there were some other

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<v Speaker 1>client representations that were the kind of things that either

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<v Speaker 1>had been or could be the subject of media attention.

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<v Speaker 1>That was the sort of nature of my practice. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>as I work with I worked in controversy with controversial people,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course on some of those some of those

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<v Speaker 1>matters intersected with this building and with Congress, etc. And

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<v Speaker 1>so became contentious, politicized, etc. And so then that was appreciated.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, I was told that no one else would

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<v Speaker 1>have done that before at Goldman. And then the next

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<v Speaker 1>time it came up was when the Wall Street Journal

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<v Speaker 1>published the story at the end of April in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three, and the Wall Street Journal reported based on

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<v Speaker 1>I gather based on documents that they had come into

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<v Speaker 1>possession of that showed meetings that Epstein had with people

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<v Speaker 1>and calendar entries and things like that, and so I

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<v Speaker 1>was listed along with a number of other people as

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<v Speaker 1>being people that he had met with. Question, did anyone

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<v Speaker 1>bring those concerns to you after the story broke internally

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<v Speaker 1>at Goldman? Answer? Well, what happened is is the Wall

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<v Speaker 1>Street Journal sent a bunch of questions and I discussed

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<v Speaker 1>them with the right senior people. We sat down and

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<v Speaker 1>went through the mall. Question in to your knowledge, has

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<v Speaker 1>Goldman performed any internal investigat about your ties with Jeffrey

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein outside of the cell vetting process you've already described.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer without getting into substance. Yes, question when did those

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<v Speaker 1>internal investigations occur? Answer? I wouldn't characterize it as investigation,

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<v Speaker 1>but there were reviews done in questions asked, and that

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<v Speaker 1>occurred in twenty twenty three, that occurred again in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five. In twenty twenty six, as there was increasing

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<v Speaker 1>media scrutiny around anybody who had ever sat in the

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<v Speaker 1>same room with Jeffrey Epstein. All right, folks, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to wrap up right here. All the information that goes

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<v Speaker 1>with this episode can be found in the description box.