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Speaker 1: Welcome to Softcore History. What is up? Welcome back to

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Softcore History. I am your host for the week, Rob Fox,

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joined as always by Dan Jester. We're coming to you

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over that Christmas holiday. Welcome to our show. Thanks for

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listening while you're driving, or shopping, or avoiding family, whatever

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you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Getting out of the house. You've been with the extended family,

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your parents maybe kids, for forty eight to seventy two hours.

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Speaker 1: At this point, you told them you're going to visit

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a friend. They don't know that that friend odeed six

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years ago. You're just out driving.

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Speaker 2: You're going for a nice drive, maybe getting some tobacco

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in yea, maybe drinking and driving.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're not, but yeah, I don't drink and

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drive like a lot, you know, maybe like a two beer.

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Go out to see a movie, have a beer or

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two at the movie time.

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Speaker 2: You got a handgun in your lap. You're staring off

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into the distance.

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Speaker 1: Wait. I actually thought of a fun game to play

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for people over at Christmas break Every night you go out,

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tell your mom you're going to meet a friend of

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yours who odeed, and do that every night until she

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knows that one of them odeed.

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Speaker 2: Until she figures it out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like first night, like, yeah, Mom,

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I'm going to see uh.

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Speaker 2: You know, your parents are the ones that usually break

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that news to you, though maybe not for you, but

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since I've been out of Philadelphia, it's usually my parents

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are like, oh, so and so unfortunately past.

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Speaker 1: The only one my parents I feel like, no Abount

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is one of my brother's friends who oded like fucking

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eight years ago at this point.

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Speaker 2: But my parents are They're always like, oh, hey, just

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so you know, this person died, this person died, this

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person died. Hope you have a good day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I ran into uh, Joey Tromoli's parents and they

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were coming back from his funeral. He died.

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Speaker 2: Had a lot of good sounds with Tremoli.

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Speaker 1: Joey good guy, got fucked up at his house sophomore year.

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He's a good guy. Got a hand job at his house,

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and that's all that qualifies for him being a good

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guy like you, even though you know for a fact

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that like he wasn't paying his child support for years.

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You're just like, yeah, but that party, that.

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Speaker 2: Partyhore tenth grade fucking upperclassmen, give me an h because

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he gave you behind his dad shed.

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Speaker 1: That's a core memory, you know what I mean? Like,

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it doesn't matter how many core memories that are negative

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that he gave to the six year old he left behind. Yes,

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he gave you a positive core memory.

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Speaker 2: And that's what's important. And that kid didn't really deserve

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more money. It's good his mother's actually asking for too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that kid didn't know the real Joey. I never will.

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Speaker 2: No. I mean, Joey barely could hold a job.

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Speaker 1: Joey.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what kind of child support does he need

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to provide? He's he's in and out of rehab.

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Speaker 1: Joey was too good for this world. Yeah, it's too

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good for it. Yeah, r I p to this fictional

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Philadelphian slash Saint Louis. I don't know. It's always Italian

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or Irish.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you might as well make it just Mickey McPherson.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like me and you though grew up

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with very similarly named people. It's the Irish Catholics, Yes,

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Irish Italian Catholic. Like if I just if I just

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I might do this one day for like a Patreon

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Patreon dot com.

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Speaker 2: Because every area had their parishes, right, each church parish

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you from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in kind of like a mixed parish,

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but like the South, like South city parishes.

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Speaker 2: I was our lady of Fatima, Christ the King, Christ

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the Kun. I had some beef with some Christ of

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the Kings really yeah, mainly you. But no, I mean

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I hated saying Thomas Quinas. I hated.

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Speaker 1: OLP.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't like OLP.

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Speaker 1: Saint Blaize fuck Saint Blaze their arrival in baseball for

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a Whileah in the.

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Speaker 2: Day, Holy Cross fucked us up a lot in Cyo

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bassball and football.

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Speaker 1: Okay, trying to think of other other schools, other grade

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schools that pissed me off back in the day, Uh,

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Saint Blaize is really the main one. Saint Rock's was soft.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever tried to make all Catholic? No, you

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didn't reach all Catholic status in tennis?

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Speaker 1: Tennis tennis back then, Oh you didn't.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know any sport you played.

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Speaker 1: So I played all the sports in like K through eight. No,

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like high school, high school, just tennis. Yeah, yeah, that's

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what I'm saying. No, No, I only I didn't play.

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Speaker 2: I didn't go to a Catholic high school. So I

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couldn't make the All Catholic team.

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Speaker 1: That's not it's just all conference. At that point, we

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were in a Catholic con like our conference was like

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all Catholic schools, kind of like the Big Eastern Basketball now.

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But yeah, I wouldn't make anything. I only played JV

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and then quit to do theater full time.

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Speaker 2: Did you even make a varsity letter?

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Speaker 1: Dude? It's a country club sport at a private school.

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Speaker 2: Come on, come on, dude, So you're you're ass. You're

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a bad tennis.

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Speaker 1: Player, No, dude, because JV one of the reason I

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quit JV tennis honestly, other than I like theater better.

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Speaker 2: Your coach, y'all? At you what your coach was mean?

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Speaker 1: He was mean to me. Yeah, I'll never forgive him.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I liked our coach. He's my French teacher and he

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didn't give a fuck about anything.

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Speaker 2: My French teacher was also my dad's golf coach, and

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he's my golf coach nice and I have the same

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name as my dad, so we already hated me.

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Speaker 1: Oh perfect, Yeah, coach Lil sal No. So JV tennis

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sucked because they only let JV play doubles. You couldn't

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play singles in JV. I'm much better singles player than

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a doubles player. I only liked playing singles. I still

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do to this day. I don't really like playing doubles.

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Speaker 2: So you're not a big pick a ball guy.

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Speaker 1: That's a different I just don't care about pickleball, so

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I don't care if there's someone else there or not.

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Speaker 2: I didn't care about pickleball until they took one of

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the basketball courts at Lifetime Fitness.

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Speaker 1: They take all the courts. It's a virus. They take

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the tennis courts. It doesn't stop.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how it's gotten this big, but it has,

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and I don't care for it. You can like I'm

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cool with for tyrees playing pickleball, like it's probably more

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their speed than tennis at this point.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, eventually you can't can't cover a tennis court

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when you're fucking sixty.

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Speaker 2: But nothing infuriates me more than just like kids in

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their twenties people our age just being all about pickleball.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'll play pickleball just because it's fun, but like, yeah,

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I don't know about making it your whole fucking thing,

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because it is like it it's a weird fucking they're

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tennis Larper's hobby to just like ride for to get

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really into it. And now it's becoming a thing where

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all the if you go to like a website like

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Adidas or Nike and you go to their tennis shoes,

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now it's tennis slash pickleball shoes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean Joey got really in the pickleball

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before you odd.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was this one thing. He's really turning a corner.

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He got addicted to pickleball, but not not quick enough.

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Speaker 2: Not quick enough. It didn't pull him out of the darkness.

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Speaker 1: Now, poor guy, poor Joey. Well it's good. In today's episode,

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today we're talking about a little bitch, a dog, a pussy,

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a big cat, a pussy, a fucking bitch. Dude, this

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guy fucking a cuck, soft ass bitch, ass motherfucker.

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Speaker 2: Your father that left you, Well, my father didn't leave.

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So he came back. He left for a night.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: He went to grab some milk, maybe some SIGs, and

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then he saw his reflection in the rear view mirror,

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made eye contact with himself, stared directly into his soul

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and He's like, I guess I'll put up with this

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for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, be a cigar from my father. But yeah,

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I can't disprove that you're herodotusing money early years. Yeah,

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fair enough. All you know is I had a father.

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You're filling in the place.

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Speaker 2: I'm giving details. Yeah, that need to be added.

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Speaker 1: Makes a better story. But yeah, we're talking about this

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gay little bitch, this pussy Now. Granted, sure, he was

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a cavalry commander by the age of twenty six and

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won a lot of important battles for his country. At

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twenty nine, he became arguably a key general under one

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of the greatest military commanders of all time. Still though,

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little bitch. Even though he helped conquer an unforbidding land, bitch,

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he was instrumental in winning major battles and putting down revolts,

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But still a little pussy bitch. He was then promoted

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and commanded even more men, reconquered lands taken from them. Bitch.

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Pussy saw combat over and over again in most of

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his major battles, but absolute soft little bit.

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Speaker 2: Today we're talking about George Washington.

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Speaker 1: Not far off because this is at least how people,

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or how one person in particular came to portray mark Antony,

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General mark Antony of the Roman Republic. We're talking about

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the propaganda campaign that Octavian aka Augustus Caesar ran against

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mark Antony in order to make himself more powerful and

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ultimately become the sole ruler and first Emperor of Rome.

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Speaker 2: And it was by Antony. Bothers me, why just be Anthony?

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The h ad the fucking h.

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Speaker 1: They added that later they didn't have H's back then,

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It's just kidding. They probably did.

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Speaker 2: It was a New World letter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, except for Herodatus Horotis was actually Erototus. You

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don't realize that. Yeah, it was added. The age was

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added much much later. But now we're talking about mark Antony.

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And my favorite thing about so one of my favorite

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things about ancient Rome in that it's total bullshit and

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we don't give it enough like as a general public.

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I'm sure historians do, but as a general public we

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really don't think enough about how our understanding of the

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republic to empire transition and the key figures in it

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are all basically the epitome of histories written by the winners,

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and we kind of just culturally and even from a

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historical perspective, until you get really into the weeds, kind

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of just take them at their propagandist word.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were sometimes the Roman soldiers would go in

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kill the emperor and then just sell the seats of

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the highest bidder.

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Speaker 1: The praetorian guard. Yeah that's a fun time. That was

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a couple hundred years later.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so really the guy that was in power

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had no power.

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Speaker 1: For in a certain era, that's not inaccurate. Like if

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you pissed off, this is like the equivalent of like

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pissing off. I wouldn't say like this secret Service, but

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like maybe just the Pentagon, I guess or something. If

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the Secret Service CIA, well, the Secret Service had like

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a la carte to just dispose of anyone, right, right.

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So Mark Anthony was although one historian, Adrian Goldsworthy kind

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of says he wasn't that great of a commander. Was

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and was We kind of take a sort of like

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almost Shakespearean view of Mark Antony. The general consensus is

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that he was a very good general and certainly an

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experienced soldier who saw a lot of battles and a

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lot of combat and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: But do we give the Romans too much credit. Were

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they getting easy dubs?

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, take like conquering, the conquering and subduing

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and keeping the amount of territory they had, and then

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especially places.

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Speaker 2: Like that's certainly impressive, Like I'm saying, were they already

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well established to the point that some of the guys

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later on just kind of kept the wheels going.

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Speaker 1: Oh, turn key operation certainly the same way, like.

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Speaker 2: As long as the system's in place, Yeah, it's you

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know the Syracuse zone, Yes, yeah, it's.

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Speaker 1: Plug and play. And that is absolutely true. It's very

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much like uh, I would say, not too indifferent from

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like the United States of America, right.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: It is even if you're a bad president, for example,

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like you're still doing better than the rest of the

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world most likely. And the United States is such a

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humongous and powerful economy that it's almost it's very difficult

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to i to fuck things up unless you almost do

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it by force, because like the arc, it's gonna win

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in the end, the money is gonna wine. So like

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it's it's like it's like trying to damn a waterfall

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or so, you know, like it's you can't it's an

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unstoppable force almost it would take it takes almost sup

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not supernatural, but like like acts of God to actually

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fuck it up like a person can't do it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, No, who would be regarded as like the

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best frum in general? Then? Is it somebody from the

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uh the Punic.

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Speaker 1: Wars Sippio Africanus would be up there? Certainly Caesar is

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on the very very short list. So it's Pompey. Yeah,

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by the way, Pompey did a lot of incredible ship

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pumpy whatever. And then there's later guys to it. And

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then if you want even want to count like Eastern

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Roman generals, Belisarius is is as good as anyone that

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ever lived. Probably, so yeah, there's a lot. But Caesar

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is up there, and mark Antony is I would say

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mark Antony maybe maybe maybe a good comp I don't

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know for sure, but maybe a good comp would be like,

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h uh, Antony is is the Sherman too. Caesar's grant

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did Sherman's dope though, I know, But mark Antony's kind

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of dope too?

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Speaker 2: Does he burness to the ground a lot of them

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all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But Antony was a badass motherfucker who eventually got

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portrayed in the eyes of Romans as.

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Speaker 2: Reputation as a little tiny bitch cuck a bitch soft

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does his wife cheat on them? The opposite, he cheated

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on his wife, oh boy.

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Speaker 1: And that plays into it quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: That makes you, uh, cook though, so cook, you're cut

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queen in.

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Speaker 1: Here's I'll explain. We'll get into how but and they

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make a very direct comparison in a way that makes sense. Okay,

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But one thing that's gonna crop up over and over again.

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So all of this essentially is legitimized. Probably isn't the

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right word, but like it's made not probable. What am I?

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What am I thinking of It's it's made like like

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it could be possible. Seems like it seemed like it

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could be possible because of who he was fucking, which

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is Cleopatra. And so the general thing that inspires all

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this is that, oh, he's adopting Eastern ways, and Eastern

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is essentially would be like today's code for just gay.

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Speaker 2: Also, she's kind of the hoe.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that she's cheating on him. She's a pragmatico.

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She's fucking she's she's fucking him. And actually they from

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all historical accounts, they're not ever away from each other

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for very long once they start dating or whatever, so

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like it's just that banging each other.

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Speaker 2: Like there she's fucking servant boys.

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Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, they're genuinely in love.

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But also that's not cheating, that's just jacking off into

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the servant boy.

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Speaker 2: That's not well, they're jacking off into her.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. I think she's keeping it

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from Mark.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but Mark is probably creampie only from Mark.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but Mark's probably jacking I mean, they had a

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lot of kids together, Anthony and Cleopatra.

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Speaker 2: And we're certain they were his Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it seems to be like I said, they

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were not away from each other for very long once

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they started their thing. They were kind of always together.

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She was not a good ruler. Well she rolled the dice,

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I think, and I don't blame her.

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Speaker 2: And what happens when a little a woman about her.

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Speaker 1: I say this later in the episode, but Mark Anthony

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doesn't really do himself any favors, you know what I mean,

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Like he really kind of like tosses gasoline onto the propaganda.

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But I just kind of but what's funny is though,

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the way he does it is that like it's very

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clear that he's the opposite of what they're saying, and

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he's just doing whatever the fuck he wants because he's

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a dude, Like he's kind of badass and he's like,

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fuck this, I'm gonna impose my will and do whatever

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the fuck I want. But it plays into the narrative

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that Octavian is putting forward.

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Speaker 2: Can he control Cleopatra to do whatever he wants?

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Speaker 1: I think I'm talking on my ass here, obviously, because

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I'm not a historian. I'm not an expert on this. This

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is softcore history. But I think they were genuinely in love.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but can he steamroller?

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Speaker 1: Yeah he can, he yes, But I think he's.

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Speaker 2: So he's really in power in Egypt.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's the one. And I mean

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Cleopatrick is a client queen, yeah you know what I mean.

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And he that is his domain, the eastern part of

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the Empire is kind of what he's running.

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Speaker 2: And so so what Daddy says, Cleopatrick does, but she

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has his ear like it's a partnership. Yeah, I guess,

333
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But either way, it's how well she's sucking that how.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's getting late. But but the thing of

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it is, though, is that she.

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Speaker 2: Has the golden mouth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a Nancy Reagan throacout.

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Speaker 2: Was Anthony the one that gave her the name? Or no,

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that was Caesar, wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It probably was probably Caesar because she had a kid

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with Caesar too. Yeah, Caesarean.

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Speaker 2: But the whole point is he cut because he was

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after Caesar.

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Speaker 1: No, they don't say that. In fact, they try to

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kind of. They actually Octavian doesn't want to bring up

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the fact that Caesar's with her at all because she

347
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had a son through Caesar. Yeah, and so.

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Speaker 2: That's too, so added legitimacy to the sun.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, he didn't. That's something that they did not

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want to bring up in any way whatsoever. So they

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didn't talk about that really because that would have lent

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credence to the fact that there was another rightful heir

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to Caesar who was not Octavian, because he Octavian wasn't

354
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even Caesar's kid, right, he was the adopted son of

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Caesar in his will and sees will. So like they

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didn't find out about that until after host death.

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Speaker 2: Adoption.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, literally, so.

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Speaker 2: That sounds us.

360
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Speaker 1: The whole point of this is, though, is that Octavian

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portrays Anthony as Eastern, which is a twofold insult. And

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we'll get into how he does it, but it's a

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twofold insult. One maybe most not maybe definitely most important

364
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is that it means he's foreign. Now, he's not Roman,

365
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he's been lost to the East, of course, foreigner, but

366
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also what type of foreigner is he? And that is

367
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like again, like we joked around in the Herodotous episode

368
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last week, we talked about the pisions marching on on Greece.

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It's just a parade of gay weirdos. Well that's Egypt.

370
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That's well, it's Egypt, but it's the East, right, Like

371
00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:03,079
it's they're not strong, you know, body Roman true men, right,

372
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these are soft, artistic gay lord even though everybody's doing

373
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gay stuff. But like it's you're just like, yeah, he's weak,

374
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he's he's effeminate. That's the Eastern man is effeminate. Yeah,

375
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he's gay.

376
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Speaker 2: They're doing it in a twink way, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

377
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Speaker 1: And that is how he is portrayed. Because he's having

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sex with the most famous woman in the East. So

379
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he's he's a feminine.

380
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Speaker 2: Uh, it's like calling Travis Kelcey gay.

381
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Speaker 1: Now, I know, dude's got fucking Taylor Swift. We're fucking queer,

382
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Like what that is happening? I know, it's fucking crazy.

383
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Speaker 2: She's got no curves.

384
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Speaker 1: That is actually a great comp Travis Kelcey is a

385
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,160
soft football player now because he's having sex with a

386
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,559
famous pop star who writes girly songs. So he's a bitch.

387
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That is what happened to Mark Antony and the propaganda.

388
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That's a perfect analogy.

389
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Speaker 2: Home runs every now and then. Contact Hitter though, you know.

390
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: So. In forty three BC, the second Triumvirate happens. It's

391
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between Octavian, Antony, and Lepidus. Essentially in the wake of

392
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Caesar's assassination assassination, they start running the country. And during

393
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these years, Antony's kind of running the East. He's invading Parthia.

394
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He kind of wants to Antony has his own designs

395
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on Grandeur. He kind of wants to do Alexander the

396
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Great shit right, conquer more the East, stuff like that.

397
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Octavian stays in Italy where he kind of strengthens his

398
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power with the Roman people in the Roman senate Lepidus

399
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is a nobody and he gets kicked out in thirty

400
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,000
six BC. So Octavian aka Augustus, the man who would

401
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,799
become the first emperor. He wants to be the emperor.

402
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,759
He wants to be sole power. Had they both like,

403
00:21:54,839 --> 00:21:58,720
he has designs on I think something. Well, Caesar, I

404
00:21:58,759 --> 00:22:00,799
guess had designs on this, but he has designs on

405
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something that I think nobody else alive at that very

406
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,720
moment had designs. I don't think Anthony had designs necessarily

407
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:13,880
on singular lifelong monarchal pas.

408
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Speaker 2: So forgive me, I'm not as plugged into the alpha

409
00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:20,759
male Roman history grind. You know, I haven't been reading

410
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,799
up on my meditations from Marcus Aurelius. But what's the

411
00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:27,400
difference between Caesar and emperor?

412
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Speaker 1: What do you mean?

413
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Speaker 2: Wasn't Julius Caesar an emperor?

414
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Speaker 1: No, he was dictator for life.

415
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,559
Speaker 2: I guess what's the difference between dictator and emperor?

416
00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:39,519
Speaker 1: The title hadn't been invented.

417
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, same, same though.

418
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, dictator was more like the actual term they would

419
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,960
use at the time for someone who's solely in charge,

420
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and Caesar was like, you know, what you're gonna make

421
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:56,680
me that for life and imperator imperatore was what Augustus

422
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,920
was and that was so he was the first Yeah, emperor.

423
00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: So it's just the first title, first time it's ever

424
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been mentioned. Yeah, but same power, right.

425
00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: Right, And they really wanted to avoid the word king.

426
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:14,000
That's why these other titles are used because Romans fucking

427
00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:18,079
hated kings. Think about like someone trying to declare themselves

428
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,359
king of America in the eighteen tens. Yeah right, no,

429
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,160
no kings, No fucking kings. They fucking hated kings, and

430
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,559
that was a good piece of propaganda they would use

431
00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,559
against all their enemies, right, like we're fighting a king, right,

432
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,160
we're fighting a Carthaginian king. Even if someone wasn't a king,

433
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,079
they'd call him a king just because that was a

434
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slanderous the same way we today actually might call someone

435
00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,160
a dictator, like Americans will just throw dictator, right because

436
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,680
Hitler was a dictator. And that really is the gist

437
00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:49,160
of it, like that, we I don't think we necessarily

438
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,599
super duper hated dictators prior to World War Two, like

439
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,119
we didn't like them. Santa Ana was a dictator in

440
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,599
Mexico when we fought him, but dictator really got it

441
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,200
became like a filthy word from World War Two afterwards,

442
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,960
where we would just throw that at anybody, sodami.

443
00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:07,279
Speaker 2: The king's actually gotten softer.

444
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: It has king like, oh the King of Jordan, look

445
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,200
at that. Look cute.

446
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: Look king, he's a dictator.

447
00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:15,559
Speaker 1: The king is something. There's no functional difference.

448
00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:18,799
Speaker 2: No, but we're like the King of Jordan he's dope.

449
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: Or like the King of England, like, oh England is king.

450
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,079
Speaker 2: Again, that's not really a thing though, that's kind of

451
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,160
more like symbolic.

452
00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we do think it's cute when a country

453
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,960
has a king but a dictator. Yeah, but King of

454
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,279
Jordan's a dictator. What he says goes yeah, Like it's

455
00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:38,039
the same fucking thing.

456
00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I just didn't know if Yah, Emperor was softer.

457
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,839
Speaker 1: Or for them it was it was just not you

458
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:49,839
know what I mean. Was he voted, Yeah, but like.

459
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 2: The same did he have to like listen to the Senate.

460
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Speaker 1: You can't throw what they say out completely out the window.

461
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: Didn't Caesar do that? Granted he was stabbed.

462
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,319
Speaker 1: I mean Caesar didn't listen to them as much as

463
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,000
they would have liked, and that was the problem. And

464
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,119
they were also just like he's trying to become a king,

465
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:11,079
because they were like, that's what dictator for life is.

466
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the fucking king, just like no term limits,

467
00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:16,039
you know.

468
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why they stabbed him. As soon as

469
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,599
lepidist was out, Octavian was like, all right, it's just

470
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:23,880
me and Anthony. This is going to come to a

471
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,480
head at some point because I know what I want

472
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,960
and I don't even think Anthony wanted to be sole ruler,

473
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,519
but I think he also kind of knew that Octavian

474
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:35,440
was going to become a problem for him one way

475
00:25:35,519 --> 00:25:38,160
or the other, and he certainly didn't want to bend

476
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,359
the kneed Octavian.

477
00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:43,559
Speaker 2: You don't want to serve the Octoman.

478
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: The kid who was a teenager when he became in

479
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:50,960
the Triumph, when he went into the triumvirate with Anthony,

480
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,319
who was a hardened veteran who helped conquer Gaul and

481
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,000
then beat like he was the one who beat Caesar's

482
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,240
assassin's brutus and stuff in that civil war. Octavian was

483
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:04,640
just a bitch. Like Octavian's is a soft hands dude,

484
00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:09,000
no combat, no war like Anthony wins all the wars

485
00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:14,279
against the people who fought against him and Octavian and stuff.

486
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:18,519
After the assassination, like Antony does the dirty work for

487
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:19,480
pretty much everything.

488
00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: Octavian had a silver spoon, showed.

489
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: Up as literally yes he was. Yeah, watched you watch

490
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,519
the show Room. That's exactly how it is. Although Octavian

491
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:30,119
I love the character Actavian in Rome, but yeah, he's

492
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,680
a soft hands, rich kid who has lust for power

493
00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:37,680
and wants to get it. Antony also wants power and

494
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,680
glory and fame. I just don't think he had designs

495
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,440
on completely remaking the Republic or anything. He just kind

496
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,480
of wanted to be like the great one, like just

497
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:49,039
continue it. He wanted to be on Mount Rushmore. Yeah right,

498
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,599
but he didn't want to make a new title for

499
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,160
himself as far as I know.

500
00:26:54,799 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean making the title is not really an

501
00:26:57,759 --> 00:26:58,839
accomplishment though.

502
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: On this note, Yeah cool. So Octavian and Anthony propaganda

503
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,960
started going back and forth. The first major turning point

504
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,200
was in thirty five BC when Octavia, who was Octavian's

505
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,319
sister and Antony's wife that was of course a political

506
00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:19,400
marriage to help be like, yeah, we're friends when everything

507
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:24,039
they're not. Octavia took a trip to visit Antony in Athens,

508
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,079
and at this point Anthony and Cleopatra were already banging.

509
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,880
They had been banging for like six years, right, but

510
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,000
that's not necessarily that crazy for him to bang other people. However,

511
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,799
it was a lot more of a he's a soldier.

512
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:42,079
Speaker 2: On the road.

513
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was more of a public affair than people

514
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,519
were used to Anyway. She shows up, that's a.

515
00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: Little disrespectful, just kind of throwing it in her face.

516
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in everyone's face, right for her to know

517
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,000
about and just be embarrassed by. Yeah, So she shows

518
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:02,759
up and she brings them like vital supplies, animals, clothing, money, armor,

519
00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:07,119
and units of the Praetorian Guard. Anthony accepted and received

520
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,400
her gifts, but he didn't ever receive her. He sent

521
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,960
a messenger to be like, thanks, you can leave. Oh

522
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,720
it's pretty sick, And she left, and Octavian seized on

523
00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,160
that opportunity to depict Antony.

524
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,759
Speaker 2: He's got to bang his wife as a piece of shit, Yeah, Octavian,

525
00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:30,400
Why didn't Octavian go for the wife who marc Antony?

526
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: Marc Antony's wife is Octavian's sister.

527
00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:37,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you gotta cook Mark anyway, you can't.

528
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,359
Speaker 1: Ye, Well, that doesn't really work because they're not really

529
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,599
down with incest. This isn't like a Habsburg situation or

530
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:43,839
an Egypt situation.

531
00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:46,839
Speaker 2: That's where the Romans drawl of the line you can

532
00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:48,720
fuck anything except your sister.

533
00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:54,119
Speaker 1: Look, man, it's all arbitrary. The hole as a hole, they.

534
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: Don't really portray that.

535
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: And Gladiator who just drawn lines bro pretty.

536
00:28:57,559 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: Sure Joaquin Phoenix wants to bonus system.

537
00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:05,079
Speaker 1: Yea. Everyone else thinks it's weird, including the sister. That's fair.

538
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,799
So Octavian is like, you.

539
00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:09,319
Speaker 2: Gonna do what you gotta do. Though, if you if

540
00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:12,160
you really want to go out this man's throat and

541
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,400
you gotta, you gotta take a shot at him. Sometimes

542
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,200
you suck it up.

543
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:19,839
Speaker 1: Well, suffice it to say, Octavian did fuck his sister.

544
00:29:20,839 --> 00:29:22,839
He killed his sister, just in a different way. Yeah.

545
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,200
So Octavian was like, my sister is a good, virtuous

546
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:28,799
Roman woman, a good they just think, just just in

547
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,559
your head, replace Roman with Christian even though Christianity doesn't

548
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:35,400
even exist yet. It's like a good Christian woman, like

549
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,200
a good honest woman you know, a pious, like conservative woman,

550
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:43,200
like she's a good woman. And Anthony is in an

551
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,799
Athens banging a slut, a dirty Eastern slut. It's not

552
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:54,799
Roman at all. So uh, Octavian is like Anthony, who

553
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,240
helped us conquer Gaul, who fucking conquered land from the Parthians,

554
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,319
who defeated the people who killed my father. I don't

555
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:04,920
think he cares about Rome anymore.

556
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,039
Speaker 2: If there's ever a man that should be able to

557
00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:09,440
fuck whoever he wants.

558
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,599
Speaker 1: Right, this guy's resume is bananas.

559
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: He expanded the empire.

560
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:18,039
Speaker 1: So here's the thing about that visit though, And here's

561
00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,599
how Octavian fucked his sister. He knew Anthony was going

562
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,880
to do that, and he was the one who sent

563
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,920
her to do it, sent her to visit him knowing

564
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,240
that Anton and I don't know if she knew or not,

565
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,920
but he knew that Anthony was going to be a

566
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,960
dick to her, and he sent her knowing Anthony was

567
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,680
going to be a dictors. Did he ever love her, No, no,

568
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:42,640
it was a political arranged marriage. But he sent his

569
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,160
sister to go get embarrassed.

570
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: Did they ever have kids together?

571
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,599
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think they did have a kid. Actually, okay,

572
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:51,599
I believe they did. But he sent his sister to

573
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,440
go get publicly embarrassed to make himself look better.

574
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,119
Speaker 2: To be a cut queen.

575
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the propaganda campaign begins in earnest.

576
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: She was just a cog in the machine.

577
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: She was just a fucking pond dude.

578
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, just that's unfortunate.

579
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: Get knocked off. I mean she didn't die, like get

580
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,279
killed or anything, but she was just embarrased like heirs to.

581
00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:18,680
So the propaganda campaign starts to begin in earnest. Octavian

582
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:22,039
does things like give out coins to the Roman public

583
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,519
with brief mean slogans on them, portraying Antony as a

584
00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:29,519
womanizer and a drunk and also effeminate.

585
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,359
Speaker 2: We should do that now we just get like a

586
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,720
crisp one hundred dollars bill.

587
00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:38,599
Speaker 1: We do do that now, not with the coins.

588
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,599
Speaker 2: But we do like portray no, I want to all

589
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:44,920
my currency, like just a one hundred dollars bill with

590
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:45,880
Donald Trump on it.

591
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: That just says like slut, Like he's slut, just a slut. Yeah,

592
00:31:50,519 --> 00:31:52,680
probably backfire though, you gotta find a different thing. But

593
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,160
it is kind of like like, I mean, like Trump

594
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,240
making fun of McCain for getting captured. Right, it's like, ah, right, yeah,

595
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:01,359
you're in the army or like whatever, you're in the military.

596
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: But gay, no, no, just mccainn on the twenty it

597
00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:06,119
just says loser.

598
00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:10,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like truly, Like it's just it's that type

599
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,160
of thing where it's like, hold on, hold on, hold on, man,

600
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,720
hold on a minute, and it's that's a perfect example too,

601
00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:20,000
because it's like you have Trump who has never been

602
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,720
anywhere near the military minus I guess a high school

603
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,720
maybe military academy, being like, that guy's service is pathetic. Yeah,

604
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,559
that guy's service doesn't count anymore. He got captured because

605
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:33,119
he got captured. And it's like, but he he was there,

606
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,519
he did a thing. You didn't do anything. And people

607
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:38,720
bought this from Octavian too. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

608
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,000
I think Mark Anthony might be a pussy the rich kids, right,

609
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,559
the rich kid.

610
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you said enough, it becomes true.

611
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, this whole time, Octavian was

612
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,759
presenting himself as a good, uh honest, simple man like

613
00:32:57,319 --> 00:33:02,000
Roman who believed in like conservative Roman values right, like well,

614
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,839
old conservative is not the right word, like just old

615
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,279
Roman values right, So and Antony Anthony meanwhile, was off

616
00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:14,559
doing like weird heterosexual sex, but in a gay pride

617
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:18,920
parade type of way. So he sucks and he is

618
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,119
not He's not a real Roman anymore. He also so

619
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,079
he implied that not only had Anthony been corrupted by

620
00:33:26,079 --> 00:33:31,079
his affair, but that Cleopatra was his puppet master. Now

621
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:39,559
and like I said, or Anthony Octavian soft hands never

622
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:41,720
actually did anything on his own.

623
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,319
Speaker 2: But another reasons, Cleopatri are going to be the puppet master.

624
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,319
When her hands and mouth are busy.

625
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,559
Speaker 1: Exactly, they're not up. Well maybe there's a finger up there.

626
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:50,960
We don't know.

627
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: Well, crank two hander? You think Mark Antony had a

628
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,400
two hander?

629
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,359
Speaker 1: I hope so, although that wouldn't be very Roman of him,

630
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:05,200
because Romans had tiny, fancy penises. That's the ideal Roman hog.

631
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:07,519
It's a piglet.

632
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: They had knobs.

633
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just want an acorn.

634
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, acorn. That's how it's portrayed in all the statues.

635
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:16,519
Speaker 1: That's a good penis.

636
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,559
Speaker 2: That's a sophisticated dick.

637
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: That's that's it.

638
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said all the time, high society, small dick.

639
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: My wife is like I just I don't feel it.

640
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,519
I'm like, then, why don't you go to Applebee's and

641
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:30,199
find one you can feel, you dumb bitch.

642
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: Go find a peasant, dick.

643
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, go find a good one. Go to the stables, idiot.

644
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,719
But one of the reasons that this Octavian did this

645
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,920
and it went hard and what did the thing with

646
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,679
his sister and then went hard after mark Antony, is that, uh,

647
00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:52,000
believe it or not. When all this started, mark Antony

648
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,760
was definitely the more popular of the two guys. You

649
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,039
don't say, yeah, the conquered, accomplished General Caesar's right hand general,

650
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,079
the guy who beat the people.

651
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: Now did the Roman public feel about Caesar?

652
00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: Though? The plubs liked him.

653
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: But after the fact, even when he died, Yeah, they

654
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,480
thought he pulled his own thought he got sucked over

655
00:35:12,519 --> 00:35:13,920
even though he was apps.

656
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, but I guess you could say what Caesar

657
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:19,559
was doing, really, I don't think I had much of

658
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:22,360
an effect on them. Now. It was a republic, like

659
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,239
they weren't. They're not voting, they're not voting for consul

660
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:28,639
fucking build the breadmakers not doing it.

661
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,079
Speaker 2: You know, he definitely deserved to get stabbed a couple

662
00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:33,639
of times. Maybe not that many times.

663
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: Everyone had to get a licking. Yeah, you don't want

664
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,840
to you know, you don't want to say you're the

665
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,599
one guy who didn't stab Caesar needs some.

666
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: Blood on your hands.

667
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like I said, primary goal to portray Antony

668
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:54,039
as Eastern, which basically means soft and uh whipped, those

669
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:58,480
are the two things. And and not Roman. So Plutarch

670
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,239
another famous ancient historian.

671
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:08,119
Speaker 2: That's not a person, Plutarch, No, Skuy, Skuy. I'm not

672
00:36:08,119 --> 00:36:10,159
taking the word of Plutarch seriously.

673
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: That's fine. I mean he was writing kind of propaganda,

674
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,559
I guess, because uh, I don't think he was a

675
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:18,280
big fan of Marc Anthony necessarily. He wrote Mark Anthony

676
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,320
being in Alexandria, there to keep holiday like a boy

677
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:25,519
in play and diversion, squandering and fooling away and enjoyments

678
00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:30,679
that most costly, as Antiphon says, of all valuables time.

679
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:35,800
So Anthony was just there wasting time, screwing, not serious,

680
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:43,679
just fucking. Yeah. Now here's another way, another very important

681
00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:50,400
way that Octavian portrayed Anthony as soft, whipped cook whatever

682
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,320
you want to call it, whatever, whatever form of effeminine

683
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:53,719
you want to do.

684
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,519
Speaker 2: Get the power of sars out. Yeah, let's get some.

685
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: Some new word alphathosaurus.

686
00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's what's powers.

687
00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, it doesn't matter, like it's a sou Roman

688
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,119
noble families kind of like as they're sort of to

689
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,719
like hype themselves up, kind of had origin stories about

690
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,639
where they came from, right, who they were descended from,

691
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,559
and it was always ancient Greek heroes, and the antone

692
00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:26,159
for them it was Hercules. They were descended from one

693
00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:31,519
of Hercules' sons, because I guess Hercules fucked a lot.

694
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:36,320
So Octavian seized on this. I didn't know this about Hercules,

695
00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:40,199
but he was like, oh yeah, yeah, Antony's Hercules. He's

696
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:43,920
descended from Hercules. You know what version of Hercules he's

697
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,840
descended from. He's descended from the version that was enslaved

698
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,039
by Omphale, the barbarian woman who buys Hercules as a slave.

699
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:55,880
I don't know how Hercules got there, by the way.

700
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,000
I don't know how he became the man who could

701
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:02,280
like stronger than anyone and could just like rip chains

702
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,800
off became a slave, but he did. I guess at

703
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,760
some point she bought him as a slave for a

704
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,119
mere three silver talents, and I guess like after Hercules

705
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:18,840
was her slave, she to like further embarrass him, would

706
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,719
make him do chores in women's clothing.

707
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: He had to wear a dress.

708
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she was like cleaning the kitchen and put

709
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:26,280
this stress on, sweet.

710
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 2: Little made outfit.

711
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, he goes, sweetie, you little bit, here's a duster. Yeah.

712
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:35,360
So Antony portrayed I'm sorry, Octavian portrayed Antony as that

713
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,199
version of Hercules. And he said that Cleopatra was essentially

714
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,320
the barbarian queen, the foreign queen, not barbarian. Better put

715
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,280
it a foreign because the Easterners weren't considered barbarians necessarily,

716
00:38:48,119 --> 00:38:49,719
because barbarians were at least tough.

717
00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

718
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: I feel like if you run the Gamut, it's like

719
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,159
the barbarians, like the Germans and Gauls and stuff like that.

720
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,840
We're almost like ape peep, you know what I mean,

721
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:01,880
all muscle, no brain.

722
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: Cleopatra, though, was not fully Egyptian though, No, she was

723
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,639
was Greek Greek, Yeah I know, but she was the

724
00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:12,920
Ptolemy's have been there for hundreds of years, and so

725
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,599
they were like a Greek Egyptian hybrid.

726
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: At this point, they're very Easternized. Yeah, they were not

727
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:24,639
Athens Greek in any meaningful way. They were like, I

728
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:27,559
don't know tex Mex Greek, dude, think of the nose

729
00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:31,480
on that girl? Uh what the Greek knows? Oh yeah,

730
00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:33,440
I mean there's like renderings of her.

731
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,639
Speaker 2: She's not like traditionally attractive.

732
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, they actually did give her a fucking.

733
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: Pretty good honker on here.

734
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

735
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big Oh yeah it was Greek. Yeah,

736
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:51,280
would you though the woman with the golden mouth? You

737
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:52,840
gotta take it out for a test rat?

738
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you gotta try at least once, like undoubtedly,

739
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,360
I'm not even not even gonna act like that wouldn't happen.

740
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,079
But so they essentially said.

741
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you travel through time, even if you're with your wife.

742
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:07,400
Feel like I gotta give this a go.

743
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:10,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, babe, when are we gonna be back

744
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:13,480
here never? Or we're never gonna leave here? Because I

745
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,360
don't know that we walked through a wormhole and I

746
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,000
don't know if that's coming back right.

747
00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:20,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if this is sliders, Like do

748
00:40:20,119 --> 00:40:21,960
we have a set time where we have to go through?

749
00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we might just have to wait out, like like

750
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,320
if you go back and time to thirty BC.

751
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:29,599
Speaker 2: Like literally, you see Jerry o'connellen my strategy.

752
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:32,639
Speaker 1: If I accidentally got sent back in time to like

753
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,559
thirty BC years zero BC, I'd be like, well, I'm

754
00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:40,960
gonna have to wait between thirty and fifty years, find Jesus,

755
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,920
hope that that's real, and be like, hey, buddy, I'm

756
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:50,320
from the future. Can you do magic for me? Yeah?

757
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,000
Is there any way? What else would you do? You

758
00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:57,119
go to Bagdad and hope that they have us, and

759
00:40:57,199 --> 00:41:01,199
hope they have the backup plan. Jerusalem's closer. I'll go

760
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:02,320
there first and be like.

761
00:41:04,039 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: Well you got time. You go to Bagdad, you find the.

762
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: Gateway and be like, you know what an ultiboy is.

763
00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: I was an eltiboy. That's not a thing yet.

764
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: What is that? Yeah? But as you're just like your

765
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:18,000
best cause scenario there is, he turns around and can

766
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:20,679
speak perfect English and you're like, oh they God, Oh

767
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,440
I know you're real. I know you're real. The whole

768
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,280
time I knew it was all real. Please send me back,

769
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,519
Please send me back, Please send me back.

770
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,159
Speaker 2: I think you wait till after he's crucified, though, and

771
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:30,119
he comes back to life. Yeah, maybe he'd be his

772
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:31,039
thirteenth apostle.

773
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be like, hey, what are these guys' names.

774
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,119
I'll tell you which one's an asshole?

775
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,159
Speaker 2: Now? Is Judas actually the most important apostle?

776
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Yeah?

777
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:45,079
Speaker 2: Without Judas, there is no death. Yeah Judas, but he

778
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:46,280
dies for his sins.

779
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,599
Speaker 1: Hard to hate in my opinion, he played his part.

780
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,440
So they also portrayed Mark Antony for whatever reason. I

781
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,400
think Anthony to ingratiate himself to uh certain cities and

782
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,239
stuff like that, would portray himself as Dionysus as well,

783
00:42:04,639 --> 00:42:06,760
And they also seized on that. They're like, yeah, he's

784
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,559
not even Hercules, even though he's the fucking bitch Hercules.

785
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:14,280
When he is Hercules, he's also Dionysus, which is like

786
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,719
the soft handiest god there is, right, fucking wine and

787
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,679
pussy and like it's just nothing, the dopest god. Yeah,

788
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,800
he's sweet. I think guy that gets drunk, very frivolous fucks,

789
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:31,480
very frivolous feasts and fucks. Yeah. Um so again, like

790
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:35,960
I said, Anthony doesn't really help his case, even though

791
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,079
I think he's doing all of this in a way

792
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:41,960
that's like I will do whatever I want. I am

793
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,679
my own man, I have nothing to prove to anyone.

794
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,519
I'm gonna look out for me and my family because

795
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:48,639
I do think him and Cleopatra were genuinely in love.

796
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,320
They were rarely apart from each other all this stuff.

797
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:55,639
So in thirty four BC, Antony and Cleopatra held an

798
00:42:55,679 --> 00:43:02,159
extravagant triumph in Alexandria, Egypt to celebrate Antony's conquest of

799
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Armenia and its annexation into the Roman Empire. This was

800
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,639
even though Romans, through triumphs all the time, perceived to

801
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,320
be theatrical and arrogant and and like totally the antithesis

802
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,480
of what a Roman would do. Plus he didn't even

803
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,079
throw it in Rome. He threw it in Alexandria, which

804
00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:21,320
means he's Eastern.

805
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's not even trying to appease the Roman

806
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:26,880
people at this point.

807
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: Which he's not. And again, even though I kind of

808
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,440
think he's operating in the in the mindset of fuck

809
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,639
fuck the haters, Like it's like, you're not doing yourself,

810
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:40,079
you're not playing the game, you're not doing yourself any

811
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:40,880
fucking face.

812
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: Explaining the empire.

813
00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:47,119
Speaker 1: I know. I agree. Uh, Also to not help matters

814
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:51,159
in terms of narrative, the triumph was for him and Cleopatra,

815
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,320
and they both sat on thrones of gold, and they

816
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,599
were lower thrones for their sons. They had a lot

817
00:43:56,639 --> 00:44:02,639
of kids. Antony wanted to confirm the queen's power or

818
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,400
are there.

819
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,639
Speaker 2: Direct descendants from these two still alive today?

820
00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: Probably that'd be sick. It would not surprise me.

821
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,559
Speaker 2: It'd be cool if you found that out.

822
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,039
Speaker 1: I mean, they had enough kids that it would be

823
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:17,719
shocking if because they didn't all get killed by Octavian.

824
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,039
Speaker 2: Really, we're right, there had to be some type of

825
00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:22,719
family tree that you can trace all the way back then.

826
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,039
Speaker 1: Almost certainly I would be shocked if there wasn't, Like

827
00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:27,639
someone would have to at least one have told if

828
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,239
there was, so, Anthony de cleared Cleopatra the queen of Egypt.

829
00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:33,559
Now that still meant that she was a client queen,

830
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:37,199
but whatever, queen of Egypt, Cyprus, Libya, and Syria, and

831
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,119
their children were rulers of Armenia, Media, Parthia, Phoenicias, Syria

832
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,199
and Cilicia. So basically the whole Eastern area was divided

833
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,079
up amongst their family, but under the umbrella of Rome.

834
00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:52,840
As far as I'm aware, I could be totally wrong

835
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,400
about that. But anyway, the Romans were like, dude, what

836
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,440
the fuck is this guy is gone native? Like Octavian's right,

837
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,880
he is a he is the Eastern little little boy now,

838
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,880
like what is wild? Yeah? And the for whatever reason,

839
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,559
the Egyptians were like especially weirdos to the Romans. I

840
00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:18,480
think because they were.

841
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,679
Speaker 2: Probably because they were an empire and they got conquered

842
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,079
by two more empires.

843
00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and their stuff was like so ancient that they

844
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,639
were viewed as like very foreign and alien. And I

845
00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:31,280
don't know, maybe the Pyramids freaked people out, I.

846
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,119
Speaker 2: Like truly, so, I mean, thank the Ananachi for that.

847
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,559
Speaker 1: Only they knew. So Octavian went to the Roman Senate

848
00:45:40,599 --> 00:45:47,159
and denounced that triumph to the Roman people and gathered

849
00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:51,920
more public disapproval of Antony's behavior. Again, he was depicted

850
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:59,119
as un Roman, a slave to Cleopatra. Now Antony, for

851
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:03,760
his part, he tried to clap back. But Anthony's not

852
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,280
a politician. He really picked the wrong game.

853
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 2: He's bad at just going after other dudes. Verbally.

854
00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: I think in a way you can almost call this

855
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:19,320
like a Ulysses this Grant situation, right, like a much

856
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:25,920
better general than political administrator. He doesn't Anthony doesn't play

857
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,960
the political game well, like he's a bull, you know

858
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,280
what I mean, Like he just he's a knuckle dragger,

859
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,920
charges in, does what he wants, he tries. God bless him.

860
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,840
But Octavian, Octavian wasn't built for battle. This is the

861
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,480
arena Octavian was built for. And Octavian runs fucking circles

862
00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:46,639
around him in the political game. But Anthony does try

863
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:53,679
to clap back with his own propaganda efforts. Antony made

864
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,719
sure everyone knew that Octavian was like a weakling, like

865
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,239
a little timid boy at the Battle of Philippi, like

866
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Anthony won it. Octavian was useless. Octavian got I think

867
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,559
Octavian like fell ill or something. It was just something

868
00:47:10,559 --> 00:47:12,800
where it was like Octavian was a bitch, Like Octavian

869
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,039
was weak, you know what I mean, Like he's like, no,

870
00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:17,760
he used the one. But honestly, this really just sounded

871
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,840
like Anthony being like n uh you are you are

872
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,079
that what you're calling?

873
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's saying things people probably already know, right.

874
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: People know that he's a soft hand. People know Octavian

875
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,320
grew up soft. People know Octavian's not a soldier.

876
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,079
Speaker 2: And a lot of people can't relate with the soldiers anyway.

877
00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: And also, it doesn't matter what Octavian is because what

878
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,679
he's saying is so well said that they just like it.

879
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: The messaging sounds better.

880
00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: It sounds better. Mark Anthony also also respread the rumor

881
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,920
that Julius Caesar was uh banging Octavian when Octavian was

882
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,039
a kid.

883
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: At his concubine.

884
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like Octavian was getting it. He's like, I

885
00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:11,320
should know. I was there, I was in that tent.

886
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: Sometimes he's also a eunuch.

887
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: They he probably should have said that, to be honest,

888
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,320
but I think Octavian might have had kids at that point.

889
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,079
But he should have said it anyway, because because none

890
00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:22,039
of it matters, he doesn't have to be true.

891
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: Apparently not. Was Octavian getting his back blown out by Caesar?

892
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,199
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so.

893
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,199
Speaker 2: Potentially I don't think so.

894
00:48:33,079 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I really don't. I don't know

895
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:36,599
off the top of my head.

896
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 2: Why else is he leaving them the kingdom.

897
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: I feel like it was considered a little surprising at

898
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,960
the time, if I recall correctly, But I can't get

899
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,960
into more details. I mean, I could herodotous it. I'd

900
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,360
just be like, yeah, dude, they were banging.

901
00:48:52,119 --> 00:48:53,639
Speaker 2: He's at least giving him hand gibbers.

902
00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: I mean, Caesar had a lot of rumors about male

903
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,360
and male love affairs and where he was. There was

904
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,079
one where he was the bottom and his soldiers were like,

905
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:06,000
kind of give him shit for it in marching songs.

906
00:49:06,159 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: Dude, don't tell the Alphas that they were upset enough

907
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,920
when the Alexander of the Great Show came out and

908
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:12,920
he was banging.

909
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:15,559
Speaker 1: Dudes at all, like even topping.

910
00:49:16,039 --> 00:49:20,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Alphas hate that. What's more, can't you can't

911
00:49:20,199 --> 00:49:21,880
you can't be talking about their heroes this way.

912
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: Look, the only gay sex is between two chicks.

913
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,079
Speaker 2: That's true. Fold stop, you can dominate another man.

914
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,559
Speaker 1: That's truly one of my favorite jokes from thirty Rock.

915
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:34,239
It's like me, I'm the gay one, you have sex

916
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,920
with women, you're the gay one. You win sex with

917
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,360
the man. That's as straight as it gets.

918
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:40,119
Speaker 2: Domination.

919
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:45,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the tension between the two hit a boiling point,

920
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,719
and another civil war was imminent, But it wasn't a

921
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:55,440
civil war for two reasons. One Antony had been effectively

922
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:57,199
declared not Roman.

923
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: He defected.

924
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, he's not even a Roman anymore. It's

925
00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:01,440
not a civil war. And by the way, the Roman

926
00:50:01,519 --> 00:50:04,679
Roman populace at this point was like, we can't do

927
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:07,840
another fucking civil war, dude. It had been like decades

928
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,320
of civil war on it off, and they're just like

929
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:09,639
we don't.

930
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:13,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, uh, we need food for the city. Yeah,

931
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:15,199
we're tired of giving out supplies.

932
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: We're tired of just like come on. So the war

933
00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:23,400
was portrayed as one, Anthony wasn't Roman, and two it's

934
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,960
not even again Antony against Anthony, it's against Cleopatra. And

935
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,920
she has just like made him her puppets, so he

936
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,679
doesn't even count. Like we're fighting Cleopatra. She's the bad guy.

937
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,400
So that's how the war was justified. It was not

938
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:42,719
a civil war. It was a foreign war. And I

939
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,519
think this is a quote from Octavian. Worst of all,

940
00:50:45,559 --> 00:50:47,519
they are not ruled by a man, but are the

941
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:50,960
slaves of a woman. So they were like, any legions

942
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,599
you fight that are from Anthony, whatever, these are all

943
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,559
they're slaves to a foreign woman. Don't worry about it. Now,

944
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:03,320
the public sentiment had swung heavily against against antony, the war,

945
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:07,840
the decades long war, hero who had seen combat, who

946
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,480
had done everything a man's man, a classic Roman man

947
00:51:11,519 --> 00:51:12,239
could possibly do.

948
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: Uh, wasn't enough?

949
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: Wasn't enough? Because what have you done for me lately?

950
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,599
Speaker 2: Always has been that type of society. People forget pretty easily.

951
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: People forget easily, and they just they hear what they

952
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,000
want to hear. It doesn't matter that this man had

953
00:51:29,039 --> 00:51:33,639
seen combat dozens, if not maybe hundreds of times. I

954
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:34,199
don't even know.

955
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: You got a new generation growing up now, a new generation,

956
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:41,960
a new group of men or women that are coming

957
00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:44,400
up that were, you know, mere kids when he was

958
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,920
doing his thing, and now their teens there in their twenties,

959
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,320
positions of power, and they're like, I don't know what

960
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,119
the fuck he ever did?

961
00:51:52,199 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean, that is like a thing now right where

962
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,119
it's like you get like Gen Z and Gen Alpha

963
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,800
kind of just being like, I mean, how bad was

964
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,960
the Holocaust really? Because they just weren't.

965
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: They don't they don't know.

966
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,199
Speaker 1: They're getting too far removed. Yeah, Like I've met people

967
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,400
who were in the Holocaust. There's not that there's not

968
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,039
a lot of them left.

969
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: Kids that were born after nine to eleven.

970
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, was it that crazy?

971
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: They just use it as a punchline.

972
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: I mean, well, it's funny.

973
00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:21,559
Speaker 2: It is funny.

974
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: It does get cringe though. It's like all right, yeah,

975
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,679
we get it. Nine eleven. Sure, note eleven happened, but

976
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,119
it's also funny. But yeah, it's the same thing. It's

977
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:33,320
the same thing. It's like, I mean, it's the same

978
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,719
way we treat Pearl Harbor. Yeah, we don't even care

979
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,920
about Pearl Harbor. Now that was like a traumatic event

980
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,079
for people of that generation, but we're just like, oh yeah, okay,

981
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:45,199
I mean like, yeah, that bombed the military base. But then,

982
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,159
I mean we won the war, so it's all pretty chill.

983
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:50,199
Yeah right, I mean it's not that big of a deal.

984
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,519
Speaker 2: Two thousand we gave them a one two punch.

985
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun. But I assume when Pearl Harbor happened,

986
00:52:55,559 --> 00:52:59,960
people were like, oh my fucking god, like just tear

987
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,519
like we did it at the Battle of Lau. Was

988
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:04,280
that on the Patreon?

989
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:05,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on the patrio.

990
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Battle of La Patreon komslash software history. People

991
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,480
were terrified that the Japanese are about to land in

992
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:14,480
California at any moment they were shelling California from a

993
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,280
submarine like terrifying times. And now we're just like those

994
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,199
idiots shot at a balloon for three hours.

995
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,559
Speaker 2: It was a bad movie, long, long movie.

996
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: What nineteen forty one? No Pearl Harbor. Oh no, that's

997
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,320
a great movie. I love that movie. I love Pearl Harbor.

998
00:53:32,599 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: That sounds surprising you like bad movies.

999
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:39,199
Speaker 1: That's fair. Here's the thing, though, The combat scenes are

1000
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:46,199
actually excellent, like genuinely every scene that's combat is really

1001
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:47,119
fucking good.

1002
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:48,639
Speaker 2: Who's your favorite at Kuba?

1003
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: Nah, it's Ben, It's Ben? Okay uh So, public sentiment

1004
00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:00,400
now completely against Anthony. The war of Actium is on.

1005
00:54:01,559 --> 00:54:05,000
The Senate declares war on Cleopatra. They blamed and they

1006
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,480
blamed her for corrupting the Great General Mark Antony, like

1007
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:12,159
you ruined him. We're not even fighting Marc Antony anymore.

1008
00:54:12,199 --> 00:54:16,519
He's like a fake version of himself. And although the

1009
00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:22,000
Senate did majority go to Octavian, forty percent of the Senate,

1010
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:26,119
along with both consuls, sided with Antony and left Rome.

1011
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:32,639
But years later, when Octavian, when the winner was writing history,

1012
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:40,079
Octavian wrote that the whole of Italy voluntarily took oath

1013
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,440
of allegiance to me and demanded me as its leader

1014
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,280
in the war in which I was victorious at Actium.

1015
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,599
So he was like all of Italy was like, hey,

1016
00:54:48,639 --> 00:54:53,280
you gotta save us man against this soft guy who's.

1017
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:55,679
Speaker 2: So who is Octavian's guy who was his general?

1018
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:05,639
Speaker 1: Grippa? Maybe? Yeah, but Agrippa also a great, great Roman general.

1019
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,519
And Agrippa was almost like Anthony in a way in

1020
00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:15,159
that he wasn't very politically talented either. But unlike Anthony,

1021
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,719
he also wasn't really a fame horror. That's kind of

1022
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,199
Anthony's downfalls. Like Anthony, one of the credit, he's a

1023
00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:25,039
fame whore and he's party boy. So he liked to

1024
00:55:25,039 --> 00:55:29,000
get fucked up. He liked being famous. Now to his credit,

1025
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,639
he did. He put his money where his mouth was,

1026
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,280
you know what I mean. Like he backed it up,

1027
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:37,760
like he was like, I'm gonna be a famous general

1028
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,880
and then went and won battles and did famous general shit. Yeah,

1029
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,639
he was just too in love with the fame.

1030
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 2: You need this kind of hard nose, blue collar type

1031
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,719
guy to come in though. For Octavian, Yeah, that's how

1032
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,920
you won a war. Because he doesn't want the accolades.

1033
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,960
He doesn't want any of the attention. He just wants

1034
00:55:59,000 --> 00:55:59,920
to get down the beach.

1035
00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:03,639
Speaker 1: Well, Grippa was like I think Agrippa also too, was like,

1036
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:06,960
live a pretty good life if I just win battles

1037
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:07,480
for this guy.

1038
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 2: Also, if you stay off people's radar. Two, yeah, like

1039
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,719
you just do your job, you reap the rewards, but

1040
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,639
you never like ask for more. You're gonna live a

1041
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:21,800
pretty good life. Like you're you're not in the crosshairs,

1042
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:27,760
you're not a target. You do your job, you show up. Yeah,

1043
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:29,480
yeah paid, you're good.

1044
00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:33,159
Speaker 1: And he I think so Grippa just uh he did

1045
00:56:33,199 --> 00:56:36,639
die at the age of like fifty, but it's a life.

1046
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,000
But he was not like he just died like he

1047
00:56:40,039 --> 00:56:42,360
wasn't killed or anything like that. He just you know,

1048
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,679
that's how shit goes and back then. But yeah he

1049
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,639
uh yeah, so so he had Octavian had like a

1050
00:56:51,679 --> 00:56:54,480
good commander to help because he wasn't able to do

1051
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,960
that shit on his own. He was mostly not mostly

1052
00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:01,800
entirely a brilliant politician and a brilliant propagandist. And by

1053
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,159
the way, the reason we view Caesar the way we do,

1054
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:06,320
which is still like when you think of Caesar, you

1055
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,360
do kind of reflexively think like, man, I can't believe

1056
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,039
they got him. He's a goat, can't believe they killed him.

1057
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,119
Speaker 2: But he's not. You look, you dig into the details,

1058
00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:15,079
and oh, he sucks.

1059
00:57:15,119 --> 00:57:18,519
Speaker 1: Like he's a piece of shit. He deserved to get stabbed,

1060
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,119
like and everything we believe about them is I'm not

1061
00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:26,639
saying like the other Roman sentators like pious, upstanding people

1062
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,800
or whatever, but it is. It is this type of

1063
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,320
situation where I mean like he was trying to become

1064
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:38,880
king on like there was no other explanation for it.

1065
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,360
And my favorite Caesar story to prove that he's a

1066
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,719
piece of shit is that he essentially was just like

1067
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,880
sad that he he like wept in front of a

1068
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,920
statue of Alexander the Great because Alexander the Great had

1069
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,000
already done so much by his thirties and Caesar hadn't

1070
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,360
done hardly anything, Like he was just a rich military

1071
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,760
commander who you know, was living a good life, but

1072
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,239
he he was sad that he wasn't a godlike figure

1073
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,480
like Alexander the Great, and he wanted that fame and

1074
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,199
he wanted that sort of like lasting immortality.

1075
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: My allegiance is to the Republic for democracy.

1076
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:23,199
Speaker 1: So that is how Octavian Caesar Augustus made one of

1077
00:58:23,239 --> 00:58:28,039
the most accomplished Roman military commanders maybe ever.

1078
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,039
Speaker 2: Public Enemy number one.

1079
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: By way of making him sound soft, pussy whipped, pussy whipped,

1080
00:58:35,719 --> 00:58:38,159
weak and kind and effeminate.

1081
00:58:40,199 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes you gotta do that to your boy he starts

1082
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,599
dating a girl you don't like, Like, ah, dude, you

1083
00:58:46,639 --> 00:58:49,079
either break up with her or we gotta trash your reputation.

1084
00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 1: Dude, Brandon always kind of sucked. Dude, like he kind

1085
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,760
of just hung around because Kyle and fucking Jeremy Brahm around.

1086
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,239
I don't really locked in my mind.

1087
00:58:56,199 --> 00:59:00,119
Speaker 2: Right like dude Kyle. He was never part of the Core.

1088
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:02,719
Speaker 1: Four nah man, Like we just kind of didn't. He

1089
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,519
just like had weed a lot or something like dude,

1090
00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:05,559
fuck him.

1091
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he like never laughed anything and kind of brought

1092
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:10,159
down the vibes.

1093
00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:13,719
Speaker 1: It's high key fucking dumb as fuck too, Like didn't

1094
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,119
you like light his car on fire in your yard?

1095
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: He would like go out of his way to hit

1096
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,440
on other people's girlfriends.

1097
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude when they were like drunk as fuck too

1098
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,239
very touchy. Yeah, even his dudes it was kind of

1099
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,480
kind of fucking weird dude, but yeah, they just completely

1100
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:33,360
It still just cracks me up like that. It worked

1101
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:38,159
too that the softest boy in Rome made the hardest

1102
00:59:38,239 --> 00:59:41,400
dude left alive, because look, I'm talking shit on Caesar,

1103
00:59:41,519 --> 00:59:44,519
but credit where credits due. Caesar's bad ass motherfucker. Yeah,

1104
00:59:44,519 --> 00:59:46,760
whether you like him or not, bad ass motherfucker. So

1105
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,920
the hardest dude left in Rome is portrayed Charman soft

1106
00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:56,960
effectively as an effeminate soft boy by the softest boy

1107
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:01,440
in Rome, who, out of a complete surprise, apparently got

1108
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,719
the keys to the kingdom handed to them, and then

1109
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,480
one and then one.

1110
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,519
Speaker 2: Fucking crazy what happened to Mark Antony?

1111
01:00:12,199 --> 01:00:17,719
Speaker 1: He killed himself after the Battle of Actum. Cleopatra killed herself.

1112
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:22,159
Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't know that. This is a blind spot

1113
01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:22,440
for me.

1114
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they committed suicide.

1115
01:00:24,519 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 2: I'm not like into Roman history.

1116
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily like Super Injured either, though I play

1117
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,800
the games and stuff like that. I'm definitely more into, like, I'd.

1118
01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 2: Be more into Greek history than Roman.

1119
01:00:35,599 --> 01:00:38,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, ancient history in general. I like find fun, but

1120
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:40,800
I don't like, Oh I was gonna play a history game,

1121
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:47,639
I'd rather play like Civil War, Napoleonic era, World War One, Victorian.

1122
01:00:48,079 --> 01:00:49,679
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd rather do the Byzantines.

1123
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,239
Speaker 1: I really want to read more about the Byzantine era

1124
01:00:53,239 --> 01:00:55,920
because I find that fascinating. But yeah, that's what I got.

1125
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:56,559
Would you learn to know?

1126
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: I think message in message in is and has always

1127
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,480
been the most important part of conquering.

1128
01:01:03,599 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter who the person is, what's true or

1129
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,360
what's not true, it's it's it's who's the most insistent.

1130
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,519
Speaker 2: And if you say something long enough, it'll become the truth.

1131
01:01:15,559 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Hm, who's today, Taylor?

1132
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with Cleopatrice. She caused all this could

1133
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:29,639
have been a great man.

1134
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:33,039
Speaker 1: I was. I was gonna say, love love, Love is Taylor.

1135
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 2: Or just really good pussy.

1136
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 1: Look they were in love. I think that had to

1137
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,199
be a part of it. Because he also put all

1138
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,960
all the kids in his will and not his Roman

1139
01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:48,960
kids in the will.

1140
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 2: So they didn't kill any of the kids either.

1141
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: It was just maybe some. I didn't look, and I

1142
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:53,519
don't remember off top of my head.

1143
01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:56,679
Speaker 2: Was it like a suicide pact Cleopatra. Did they do

1144
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:57,840
it at the same time or different times?

1145
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:02,719
Speaker 1: No, I don't it's it's like portrayed at the same time,

1146
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,599
I don't think it was. Okay, And and Anthony killed

1147
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:08,960
himself in like the traditional Roman soldier way too. He

1148
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,199
wanted to die a Roman like, die in a Roman

1149
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:13,800
way since he had been portrayed, so he is like

1150
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:18,840
suppuku on Roman. Yes, like literally Roman sopuku. And then

1151
01:02:19,159 --> 01:02:21,440
but like, honestly, like a lot of this reads to

1152
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,199
me as just the actions.

1153
01:02:22,719 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 2: Of Cleopatric poison herself.

1154
01:02:25,199 --> 01:02:28,719
Speaker 1: I think so. But I think there's like a legend

1155
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:29,960
she had a poisonous snake.

1156
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,679
Speaker 2: Bier okay, became Medusa.

1157
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but uh, this strikes me as the actions partly

1158
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:42,880
of a man who was in love mhm with himself himself,

1159
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,719
but also Cleopatra, Like, I think he was making decisions

1160
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,239
based on his partner and not politics.

1161
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:56,719
Speaker 2: Also, if some like younger softer dude was your boss

1162
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,239
and was telling you what to do, I'm just you're

1163
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:03,320
gonna have a hard time taking command or order from him.

1164
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,519
Speaker 1: Or taking what he says seriously. And Anthony, by the way,

1165
01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:07,519
did not take what he said seriously never, which is

1166
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:09,519
a huge problem, which is what fucked him so bad. Dude.

1167
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:11,159
Speaker 2: There's so many people who think about it. In corporate

1168
01:03:11,199 --> 01:03:13,440
America now that are like in their forties or fifties,

1169
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,639
they have these kids coming up that are like in

1170
01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:20,920
their mid twenties, late twenties, early thirties, that like fresh

1171
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,559
pups out of school, coming in and telling them what

1172
01:03:24,599 --> 01:03:26,280
to do. And he's like, dude, I've been doing this

1173
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,039
job for thirty forty years at this point.

1174
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:32,519
Speaker 1: Yeah fuck off. Yeah, he didn't want to listen to him.

1175
01:03:32,719 --> 01:03:37,599
He didn't realize how talented the kid was at certain things.

1176
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 2: But you probably should listen to them because you're at

1177
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,519
the same job you've had for twenty years. At least

1178
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:45,599
you got to middle management and never tried anything after.

1179
01:03:45,599 --> 01:03:48,159
Speaker 1: You've got to pay attention, right, you gotta pay attention.

1180
01:03:48,519 --> 01:03:52,559
You gave up on your dream, and this kid's got

1181
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:53,360
more energy than you do.

1182
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:55,159
Speaker 2: He's got greater ambitions.

1183
01:03:55,239 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well that is all I've got for today. Thank

1184
01:03:58,519 --> 01:04:01,360
you so much for listening. Uh A has always subscribed

1185
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:03,440
to the Patreon Patreon dot com slash software history lead

1186
01:04:03,519 --> 01:04:06,679
review like Apple, Spotify, blah blah blah. You get the idea.

1187
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:08,440
Merry Christmas, r I P.

1188
01:04:08,639 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: Joey Smole or whatever is the from whatever.

1189
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh for Daniel Jester, I'm Rob Fox.

1190
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 2: You just got saucer.