1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:43,039 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 14 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 4: We're joined today by Ann Choi here to talk to 16 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,159 us about her book La Coroner, Thomas Negucci and Death 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,119 in Hollywood and welcome to Mind Over Murderer. Now. 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 5: It's great to be here. 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 4: It's a pleasure to have another educator on the podcast. 20 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:03,719 I definitely feel most of the time like I'm out 21 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:05,799 numbered and out gone and tell us a little bit 22 00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:08,879 about where you currently teach, where you formerly taught, and 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,799 your major interest in academia. 24 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,599 Speaker 5: I'm currently an administrator at California State University North Bridge 25 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,079 in the San Fernando Valley here in Los Angeles, and 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,239 prior to that, I'm very new to this position. That 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,680 prior to that, I spent time, wow like over a 28 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,719 decade at cal State Domingos Hills, which is also in 29 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,120 LA County. And before that, I was an assistant professor 30 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:39,840 at the University of Kansas. And prior to that, my 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,879 first teaching position was at Swarthmore College, a small liberal 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,040 arts college outside of Philadelphia. LA is where I went 33 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:50,719 to graduate school, and it's where I always wanted to 34 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,400 work and live, and so I've been very fortunate. 35 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: Your career actually is taking you a lot of places geographically. 36 00:01:58,599 --> 00:01:59,959 Is LA a favorite now? 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,359 Speaker 5: I had a lot of hubris when I was in 38 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,159 graduate school, and I said I would only live and 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,359 work in two places, and that was either in New 40 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:10,479 York City or Los Angeles. And I've been fortunate that 41 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,479 Los Angeles worked out very well. But I'm originally from Indianapolis. 42 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,199 Speaker 4: Would you tell people about your major interests in terms 43 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:24,439 of academics, What would you say that your main interests are. 44 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:28,039 Speaker 5: I'm a twentieth century US historian, and I consider myself 45 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:32,840 an immigration historian, and my earlier work focused on Korean 46 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,599 immigrants to the US before nineteen forty five. As my 47 00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:40,400 career moved forward, I was really interested in postwar Los 48 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,680 Angeles and also my personal interest in true crime. And 49 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:47,639 so this project brought a bunch of things together that 50 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:54,360 I'm interested in. I had first encountered Thomas Ngucci's book Corner, 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,759 which was published in the eighties. I first encountered it 52 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,400 as a graduate student in the daw been outside of 53 00:03:01,439 --> 00:03:06,280 the Strand bookstore. Oh yeah, yeah, that's where I used 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,800 to buy all almost all my books on my graduate 55 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,879 school income. And I picked it up then and like, wow, 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,840 this is random. What is this Asian American do? Like 57 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:18,360 why is he like the Core? I had never heard 58 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:18,719 of him? 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:19,319 Speaker 4: Oh that man? 60 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: That was my first question. So you pick up this 61 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,280 book in the bargain bin. Were you familiar with Thomas 62 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,199 Dagucci at all? 63 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:30,439 Speaker 5: Not at all. I was spending the summer. No, I 64 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:32,680 spent more than I I spent a chunk of time 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,840 in New York City working in the archives at Columbia 66 00:03:35,919 --> 00:03:41,319 University doing research on this pre nineteen forty five stuff. 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,360 They have a bunch of things that I was interested in. 68 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,840 As is a lot of historical work, it's very time consuming, 69 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:51,800 and I was working in two different languages, and it 70 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,000 was just it was not easy, and so I would 71 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,840 reward myself by usually buying myself like a dollar mystery 72 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:03,800 book at a strand. But then I found this book 73 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,159 and then I read it and I was like wow. 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,719 I was like, this is super interesting. I had no idea. 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,800 And then, for whatever reason, I'm usually very good about 76 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,960 cycling books out. When I'm done, I give it away, 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,800 I give it to someone else. I hung on to it. 78 00:04:16,199 --> 00:04:18,160 And not only did I hang on to it, it 79 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,519 made a couple of international moves with me. It traveled 80 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,319 across the country. I wish I could dig it out 81 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:25,920 and show you. I think it may actually be in 82 00:04:25,959 --> 00:04:27,920 my office at work. So I had this copy and 83 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:30,160 I hung on to it. And then once I finished 84 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:33,040 up my first project, I was like, I wonder if 85 00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:36,160 Thomas and Gucci is still alive then, and I found 86 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,639 it indeed, and he was only like eight miles from 87 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:44,839 my house. I reached out because after he retired in 88 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,759 nineteen ninety nine. He continued to teach and do research 89 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,160 at USC County General, and he was not open to 90 00:04:52,199 --> 00:04:55,639 giving interviews. He directed people to his book. He had 91 00:04:56,199 --> 00:05:00,120 a wall of people who I think protected his privacy. 92 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,439 But then I was doing some other research for my 93 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,399 next big project, which now has been abandoned, and Thomas 94 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,199 Negucci became the project. I had found out. I was 95 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,480 doing research on a group called the Japanese American Citizens 96 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,399 League when they're still around, and then they had been 97 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,120 really involved in the Thomas Negucci case, and I was like, oh. 98 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,759 I was like, here we go. Two things I'm interested 99 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,079 in are lining up again. And then I just went 100 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,720 down the rabbit hole. And what was very interesting to 101 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:35,120 me is that the story was really in plain sight 102 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,360 the whole time. Very early as a graduate student, there's 103 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,160 the activist scholar who I admire so much. Her name 104 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:46,519 is Helen Zia, and she wrote this wonderful book about 105 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,319 Asian Americans, and she said, much of our history is 106 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:52,560 indeed in plain sight if you're looking for it. And 107 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,680 it was one of those things where like the entire 108 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,680 story is laid out in the La Times, in other 109 00:05:58,759 --> 00:06:02,160 newspapers did a lot of work at the Huntington Library 110 00:06:02,399 --> 00:06:06,439 where they had the Thomas Han collection, not Thomas Han, Kennethon. 111 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,199 Kenneth Han was an LA supervisor who had a very 112 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:14,360 interesting relationship with Thomas Dagucci, And so it was just 113 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,000 all there and waiting for someone to come in and 114 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,439 think about how all these things fit together. So I 115 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:22,439 was really fortunate. 116 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's got to be the best way that a 117 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,639 passion project finally comes to fruition is when you realize, 118 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,879 look at all these things aligning. That is fantastic. We 119 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,120 probably do have some listeners though, who are not familiar 120 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,920 with doctor Nagucci. Can you tell us how he got 121 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:41,800 the name Corner to the Stars. 122 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, So Thomas Dagucci was the first Asian American chief 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,920 corner medical Examiner in the US when he was appointed 124 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:55,240 in nineteen sixty seven, and the newspapers coined it and 125 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,879 started calling him the corner to the Stars because of 126 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,920 the famous people he had autopsied, including Marilyn Monroe, Robert Kennedy, 127 00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:07,439 Natalie Wood, Sharon Tate. And so he's involved in some 128 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:13,040 of the biggest cases that it required an autopsy in LA. 129 00:07:13,079 --> 00:07:17,120 And what's very interesting is that he knows that people 130 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,720 are calling him the corner to the stars. But he's 131 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:23,720 also very careful. And his comment was always I live 132 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:25,639 and work in LA and there are a lot of 133 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:28,680 famous people who work and live in La and of 134 00:07:28,759 --> 00:07:31,839 course that a lot of these folks would wind up 135 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:34,600 in the Corners suite, and so I thought that was 136 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:38,399 always very interesting. But he was also really he was 137 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:42,879 unusual for his time. He had a bigger than life 138 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,879 sort of personality. It was outsized. It's interesting that he 139 00:07:47,079 --> 00:07:52,920 was not afraid to maintain the independence of the Corner's 140 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,920 office at a time when things were quite politicized, and 141 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:00,920 that he went head to head with the most powerful 142 00:08:00,959 --> 00:08:04,279 people in the county to maintain the independence of the 143 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,560 office and not to be controlled. Because he had the 144 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,480 steadfast belief that his work wasn't for the dead, but 145 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,040 for the living, and what he wanted to do continuously 146 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:21,079 was to see how some of these really unfortunate deaths, 147 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:23,680 how could they benefit the living. And so he was 148 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,519 interested in a lot of things, for example, scuba diving, 149 00:08:27,639 --> 00:08:31,399 how could you prevent scuba diving deaths? Because he had 150 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:34,440 encountered so many as the coroner, and then so he 151 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,759 went on a public campaign to educate people. And this 152 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,840 is all happening at a time when Los Angeles is 153 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:45,799 rapidly expanding, so that means more people are meeting with 154 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,559 an untimely end, and especially in the seventies, the skyrocketing 155 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,320 of drug overdose, and he wanted to really warn the 156 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,159 community at large about the dangers of and sometimes this 157 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,320 did not always a lot right for him. Drug use 158 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,840 wasn't just like illegal drugs, but also alcohol, and this 159 00:09:06,919 --> 00:09:09,919 didn't align in the time right. Like his career happens 160 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,360 at a time when you know, just they're just beginning 161 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:18,799 to establish what are baselines for intoxication and so blood 162 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:21,960 alcohol content, and then there are a lot of people 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,000 who don't want to hear that alcohol is a drug, 164 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,080 in which the Gucci firmly stood behind that. And I 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,000 think that this caused him a lot of problems, but 166 00:09:32,639 --> 00:09:35,919 he was willing to It didn't make him popular at times, 167 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,600 but he wanted to maintain in the independence of the 168 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:39,759 Corn's office. 169 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,159 Speaker 2: The social drinking thing. He was very much out of 170 00:09:44,279 --> 00:09:47,960 step with what was going on back then. Because when 171 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,399 I was a kid back in the sixties, my parents 172 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,919 and everybody, all the grown ups. Everybody smoked cigarettes, everybody 173 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,320 drank alcohol. There were a lot of cocktail parties at 174 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,159 people's home Holmes, I don't think people thought of alcohol 175 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:06,919 as being a powerful drug and being a habit forming drug. 176 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,519 So it put him out of step with what was 177 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:12,440 largely seen as acceptable back then. 178 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, it definitely did, and in particular it like drew 179 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,559 the ire of the Screen Actors Guild, particularly when he 180 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,080 pointed out in the death of William Holden it was 181 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,120 alcohol that contributed to his death and the fact that 182 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:31,159 William Holden it was not a very well kept secret 183 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,759 that at times he drank to excess. And I think 184 00:10:34,799 --> 00:10:38,480 this was a time when this is where still Hollywood 185 00:10:38,519 --> 00:10:40,799 had a control over the media in the way it 186 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,720 does not anymore, but where you could keep those things 187 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:47,759 out of the news because it would affect the bottom line. Right, 188 00:10:47,799 --> 00:10:51,919 Who wants to hire an actor who is a known drunk. 189 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:55,919 Nobody wants to do that. In that context. It does 190 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,559 put him out of step. He makes Sprink sinatramad and. 191 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 4: I don't want to make Frank Sinatra mata. 192 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 5: To the extent that Frank Sinatra hand delivers a note 193 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,879 on his very expensive stationery to the Board of Supervisors 194 00:11:12,919 --> 00:11:18,559 in Los Angeles protesting the way that Naguchi, particularly in particular, 195 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,559 was talked about alcohol use in Natalie Wood's death. So, yeah, 196 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:27,679 he was never afraid to speak his mind as the coroner. 197 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,559 And then that gets him into I think a lot 198 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:32,440 of difficulty. 199 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 4: It sounds like maybe the best descriptor for his tenure 200 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,879 in the coroner's office as a stormy would that work 201 00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:42,759 as a pretty decent adjective. 202 00:11:42,639 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 5: For Yeah, And not only because he had conflict with 203 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:49,519 the political powers that be because of some of his stances, 204 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,120 but also there were groups of people who are actively 205 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,279 working to push him out as corner and they were 206 00:11:55,399 --> 00:12:02,159 not interested in having someone Japanese American Japanese descent because 207 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,039 of racism. And I think people forget nineteen seventy, nineteen 208 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,600 sixty seven, these it seems like it's a really it's 209 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,080 really far away from World War Two, but it's not. 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,000 Those sentiments they still continue to percolate today, and in 211 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,759 particular in a place like Los Angeles, it was a 212 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:27,639 very visceral thing, the anti Japanese sentiment, and that my 213 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,120 favorite One of my favorite things is that all the 214 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,840 major medical schools, including USC University of Southern California and UCLA. 215 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,519 They come out against appointing Thomas Lagucci as the corner 216 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,360 by insisting that he was not qualified despite the fact 217 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,360 he was, and then also the civil Service he had 218 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:49,919 passed and met all the requirements. But the issue is 219 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,799 for USC at any rate, he was on their faculty 220 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:57,559 teaching and they were unaware of this. Oh my god, yeah, 221 00:12:57,639 --> 00:13:00,919 with which I found really interesting where people I go 222 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:03,240 into great lengths of the book to talk about some 223 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,480 of these forces that are trying to push him up, 224 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,519 But if I were to read that kind of political landscape, 225 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,840 they were really looking. The County Medical Association also was 226 00:13:13,919 --> 00:13:17,519 quite powerful, but they were really looking for a corner 227 00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:21,159 that would step in line with their worldview. 228 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 4: It's interesting as I was reading through, especially when I 229 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:29,240 was reading the chapter about his autopsy of RFK. It's 230 00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:32,480 been credited as being the perfect autopsy. First of all, 231 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:35,279 I want to get you to explain what that ultimately means. 232 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:38,159 What is a perfect autopsy? But also he completed this 233 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,360 perfect autopsy that should have been proof to everybody that 234 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,000 he was quite credible and very capable, but it still 235 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,919 wasn't enough to quell that firestorm of debate. Can you 236 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,440 talk to us about the perfect autopsy? And then why 237 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,120 was what he did for RFK not enough? And why 238 00:13:55,159 --> 00:13:56,360 was there still this controversy. 239 00:13:56,639 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 5: Yes, so it was considered the perfect autopsy because you 240 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:07,600 have to understand rfk's autopsy in context with JFK's autopsy 241 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,000 which was botched for so many reasons and because of 242 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,720 all the sort of firestorm of conspiracy and the issues 243 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:20,480 that came out with that. As soon as it was 244 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:26,639 clear to not only doctor Nagucci, but most medical examiners 245 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:30,039 across the US, they were like, then this has to 246 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,399 be perfect to make sure that we and this was 247 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,960 at a time in the sixties in particular, where forensic 248 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:45,320 medicine is really taking off. Pathologists were never considered, it 249 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,919 was never prestigious to be a pathologist, unlike being a 250 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,120 heart surgeon or a plastic surgeon. There are more lucrative 251 00:14:53,399 --> 00:14:58,039 and more i think popular areas that a physician could pursue, 252 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:02,000 but a pathologist was always oftentimes considered second rate, like 253 00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:05,759 unimportant and they're like in the basement, working away somewhere. 254 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:10,759 But this expanse of forensic science after World War Two 255 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:15,840 really led to the credibility and an increasing profile to 256 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:20,360 the discipline as people increasingly wanted to know how do 257 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,559 people die. There's this kind of post war fascination with 258 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:28,120 death that I think is and the science around it 259 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:31,159 which is new. And then but what happens is that 260 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,840 this network of medical examers they're like, this has to 261 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:38,559 be perfect, then, and they strategize together, which what I 262 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,039 think is fascinating. Doctor Nagucci calls on them. He brings 263 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,480 in a team of the most well regarded forensic pathologists 264 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:50,879 and then strategically so no one could charge him with 265 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,600 something was done. When the body was transported. He did 266 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,159 the autopsy at Goodsmaritan Hospital and it had in advance 267 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,159 prepared and autopsy suite there, so there could be nothing 268 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:07,320 that could be picked apart as a chance for something 269 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:11,679 nefarious to happen. And then they called in medical personnel 270 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:14,720 from Washington, DC, so there were he was working in 271 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:18,960 a completely crowded room doing a six hour autopsy, and 272 00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:22,279 so it had and again this idea of perfect is 273 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:26,480 that it had to be exhausted, so every millimeter of 274 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:31,559 skin was examined, and it was. And he also demonstrated 275 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:34,960 what was unique about his technique instead of working from 276 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,639 the top down or letting the actual wound dictate where 277 00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:43,240 he started. He always started his autopsies from the bottom 278 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,840 so he could get a full examination. And he was 279 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,200 meticulous and it was meticulously documented in a way that 280 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,559 other autopsies had not been and witnessed, and I think 281 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:00,639 that was important and everyone there he didn't make a 282 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:01,639 single misstep. 283 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: I thought one of the fascinating spots in the book, 284 00:17:05,039 --> 00:17:07,119 and there are a number of them, was that he 285 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,079 was making preparations for this world class team to come 286 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,319 together before Senator Kennedy had actually even died. He had 287 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,240 gotten an advance word that Kennedy's wounds were very serious, 288 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,119 he was going to die, but he was still alive 289 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:27,599 at that point, and that he was already taking these careful, 290 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:33,960 methodical steps to put together the strongest team possible in 291 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:37,160 order to not have the problems that had happened with 292 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,559 President Kennedy's assassination. I thought this was fascinating that he 293 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,920 had the presence of mind to be thinking, Okay, is 294 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,559 likely the Senator is going to die. We want to 295 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:51,359 have a first class job done on this autopsy. I 296 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 thought it was amazing that he was already putting the 297 00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:58,119 elements in place before Senator Kennedy had actually passed away. 298 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think number one, as a physician, a 299 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,200 training physician, I think he, more so than anyone else, 300 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,279 was aware of the extent of Robert Kennedy's injuries and 301 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:13,400 the likelihood that he would recover. In the way he 302 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,640 talks about it, he wanted a situation where he would 303 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,319 never have to do the autopsies because for him personally, 304 00:18:21,519 --> 00:18:26,400 the Kennedy brothers, the two JFK and RFK represented everything 305 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,519 that was shining and hopeful about post war America, and 306 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,880 doing the autopsy was not something that he ever wished for. 307 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:40,880 But what he does do is I think this is 308 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,480 also the important part, is that he convinces the family. 309 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:48,000 He convinces the Kennedys to let him do the autopsy, 310 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,839 and they were quite clear, we know what killed him. 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,160 He died of a gunshot wound. There's no need for 312 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,480 an autopsy. But I think his involvement, particularly in Marilyn 313 00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:03,720 Monroe's autopsy, then also witnessing what had happened after JFK, 314 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:10,319 that he understood very clearly that without very conclusive evidence 315 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:16,240 from the autopsy, this could launch a mailstrom of conspiracy. 316 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,319 And even what I think is very interesting is even 317 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,680 with the autopsy it launched. 318 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was about to say, because there are 319 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,200 still questions about was it actually Siraylon and where was he? 320 00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:33,640 I was looking at this part that I had marked 321 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,519 for myself about the fact that he actually went so 322 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,960 far as to run his own ballistics tests with pig 323 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:45,279 ears attached to muslin skulls. He really went out of 324 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,680 his way to do not just his due diligence, but 325 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,400 I would say more than that, in order to make 326 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,440 sure that there was not going to be any question. 327 00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,559 But as you said, there's still all these questions. There's 328 00:19:56,759 --> 00:19:58,559 a podcast that came out a couple of years ago 329 00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:01,519 called the RFK Tapes, and it brings all of this 330 00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:04,559 into question. It's wow. I was really moved by the 331 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:07,279 detail that you put in there that he covered up 332 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:08,400 Rfk's face. 333 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 5: I think oftentimes, and doctor Nicochi never states it, but 334 00:20:13,599 --> 00:20:18,759 the idea that somehow that pathologists and corners are indifferent 335 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:22,759 to the dead, I think is something that did not 336 00:20:23,079 --> 00:20:26,599 subscribe to that, and like, for example, he would never 337 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:31,440 refer to a dead person as a corpse, like only 338 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,559 a body, and he felt that the work he did 339 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,759 honored the dead and the living. And yeah, and he 340 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:43,799 was in terms of I think the previous the previous 341 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:46,640 question you asked, of the idea of perfection and then 342 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,440 what this meant for him. But at the same time, 343 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,960 he also understood very clearly that he would be held 344 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,039 to a higher standard than anybody else. 345 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:55,839 Speaker 4: Sure. 346 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 5: What's very interesting is that when the county tried to 347 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,720 remove him, they tried to use rfk's autopsy as a 348 00:21:05,759 --> 00:21:10,119 critique that he was, that he had delayed the paperwork 349 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:14,720 he had he had actually not done his due diligence. 350 00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:18,720 And what happens is all the medical examiners that were present, 351 00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:21,599 all the other national experts come to his defense, and 352 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,759 then they have to the board of supervisors, and the 353 00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:26,599 people who are trying to remove him have to let 354 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:29,000 that issue go. And that was a charge that was 355 00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:30,839 brought up against him, and they have to let it 356 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,640 go because it was the perfect autopsy. And then I 357 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,240 think the person who captured it the best was his wife, 358 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:41,839 who pointed Sako, who pointed out in the kind of 359 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:43,960 difficult time he had when they were trying to push 360 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,319 him out as corner that because he was of Japanese descent, 361 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,039 he had to work twice as hard, and even perfect 362 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,160 wasn't enough when she pointed this out, and so I 363 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,799 think that for him it must have been really difficult. 364 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. Will be right back 365 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:07,839 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 366 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,839 mind Over Murder. 367 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 4: Was it just reasons of racism that made all of 368 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,839 these people at the Board of Supervisors decide why we 369 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,279 don't want this guy in here anymore? Or was there 370 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,240 more to it than that? Was it management style? Was 371 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:25,920 it the way he dealt with the press? What would 372 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,279 you say was the primary reason why they were like, 373 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,400 this guy's done. 374 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,559 Speaker 5: I think there's definitely racism involved, But I think also 375 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,480 it is that Naguchi, in the way that he envisioned 376 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:42,000 the role of the coroner's office was very different from 377 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:46,200 what previous corners had been, like very much in the background. 378 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:51,519 The idea that a corner would hold a press conference was, 379 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:54,799 you know, it was unheard of. And he did take 380 00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:58,720 his cues from the person that he worked for, Theodore Kurpey, 381 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:01,799 who was all so part of this early wave of 382 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,559 new medical examiners. He was the first medical examiner hired 383 00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:08,720 by LA County. This is the thing with LA It's 384 00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:12,880 its own thing. Even though that in the fifties they 385 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,559 switched to the medical examiner, no one is willing to 386 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:20,720 use the term medical examiner because it's always been the corner, 387 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,680 and so they just hung on to the term corner 388 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,000 even though they no longer had that system, and in fact, 389 00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:31,640 it wasn't even removed from county offices and documents until 390 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,480 two years ago when finally someone was like, we just 391 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:38,319 can't use this term anymore. Nogucci is part of this, 392 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:46,079 this new kind of medical examiner who is very media savvy. 393 00:23:46,519 --> 00:23:51,559 He was the original influencer when it comes to I 394 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:55,000 think without Thomas Negucci, you wouldn't have this interest in 395 00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:59,920 true crime and particularly around death and investigation. He knew 396 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,160 how to work a SoundBite, He had his own reporters 397 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:09,200 at various places that he could call, and he had 398 00:24:09,319 --> 00:24:12,880 a natural instinct for it. Then I think the Board 399 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,359 of Supervisors were really unprepared for this. They just wanted 400 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,079 the political powers that be wanted someone differential. They wanted 401 00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:24,119 someone who would tow the party line, not hold their 402 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,680 own press conferences. And he was also really at times. 403 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,720 He was very dramatic too, and he knew how to 404 00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:37,799 work the media, and for example, when he was resigning, 405 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,920 he called a press conference and he handed out copies 406 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,680 of his resignation letter, so he would have the upper 407 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,839 hand in the situation. And it's just fascinating to watch 408 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,519 that unfold in his career. 409 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: The LA Board of Supervisors. Having lived there myself for 410 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:58,720 a number of years, it's a very unique structure. You've 411 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,960 got Los Angeles. Course, it's this massive city and you 412 00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:06,880 have a board of supervisors. It's a weak mayor system, 413 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:10,240 no disrespect to the mayor, but the Board of Supervisors 414 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,359 actually have a tremendous amount of power. It's five elected 415 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:22,200 people who control a very large budget, big egos, lots 416 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:25,319 of clashes behind the scenes, and it seems like it's 417 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,960 always been that way. Someone coming along like doctor Nagoucci, 418 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:33,440 who had powerful presentation skills. Like you said, he was 419 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:37,480 very media savvy. He wasn't this guy that was just 420 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,920 in the back room cutting up bodies and issuing reports. 421 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,279 It was far more than that. But I could see 422 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:48,440 how this might not sit well with this often very 423 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,559 highly politicized board of supervisors. 424 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's absolutely the case. Right, the Board of Supervisors 425 00:25:57,079 --> 00:25:59,640 in LA they're like the most powerful people that. 426 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 4: No one know names right exactly. 427 00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:07,279 Speaker 5: Negucci was very interesting is that he out maneuvers a 428 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:10,720 lot of the Board of Supervisors and also various other 429 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:15,920 people who are involved, because he's also not included in 430 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,559 a lot of the unofficial spaces in which power is negotiated. Right, 431 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:25,559 He's not golfing, he's not at a club having dinner, right, 432 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,880 because of the structures of racial discrimination, He's kept out 433 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,799 of those arenas. And so what he does is that 434 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,640 gives him the license to do whatever he wants in 435 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,599 some ways. This and it was unexpected. It was unexpected. 436 00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:45,480 I don't think anyone in the county power structure had 437 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,960 ever seen anyone like Thomas Negucci. But also that he 438 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:56,279 was a nationally renowned expert too. He pioneered a number 439 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,960 of things in forensic medicine. He was an expert, he 440 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,440 was consulted routinely even outside of LA County. And yeah, 441 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,960 and then also a lot of people like just regular 442 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:13,319 people in LA also found it really enjoyable to watch 443 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,519 Thomas Negucci operate, and people would follow him in the 444 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,279 La Times just to see what the what the corner 445 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,640 was up to. And I thought that was fascinating, because 446 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,000 on what planet are people reading the newspaper to see 447 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,519 what the corner is doing. 448 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: The most unusual circumstances. 449 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, you'd mentioned this idea that he might be the 450 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,640 original influencer, and I definitely think that without doctor Thomas Negucci, 451 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,240 we don't have people like doctor Henry Lee, doctor Michael Bodden, 452 00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:49,559 doctor Cyril Waxed, like the people that we're very familiar 453 00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:53,000 with now who are still big names in their field. 454 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,839 I don't think that we have them without doctor Neagucci 455 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,119 kind of leading the way on that, and that's that 456 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,079 is fascinating. 457 00:27:59,759 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, Sarah Weck, I interviewed him for the project and 458 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:04,079 he died recently. 459 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,799 Speaker 4: He died, he did, Yeah, I looked it up. He 460 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,359 died here. 461 00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he was lovely to talk to and he 462 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,680 points out that out the sort of work that not 463 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,319 just Thomas Negucci, but other pathologists like himself. If had 464 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,519 hadn't been the rise of forensic medicine, you wouldn't have 465 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,400 all these experts that are so common that people know 466 00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:32,160 today but also culturally as well, right, you would not 467 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,920 have I think without Thomas Nagucci, you wouldn't have the 468 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,079 CSI franchise. 469 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 4: Agreed, Yes, yeah, absolutely. 470 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,039 Speaker 5: But what he does is that he makes death investigation 471 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,960 and forensic medicine. He is the person that allows it 472 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:51,880 to become mainstream. And the show Quincy Emmy was based 473 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,519 loosely on him. That is quite tragic that they could 474 00:28:55,519 --> 00:29:00,319 not envision a Japanese American lead for that, But but 475 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,839 he is and Jack Kleugman was quite open and they 476 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:06,720 were friends when the show was running. What I find 477 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:09,799 just really sad about this sometimes is that his contribution 478 00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:13,000 to these kind of really important cultural dynamics is just 479 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:14,160 effaced completely. 480 00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 4: As a teacher who I tried to teach writing, I 481 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,680 don't know how well I'm succeeding, but I try to 482 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,279 teach writing, I'm always fascinated to tell my students about 483 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:27,920 the research and writing process for professional educators and authors 484 00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:30,039 like you. So can you tell us a little bit 485 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,480 about your research and writing process? Where did you start? 486 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,799 Obviously with doctor Neagucci's book, How long did it take you? 487 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,200 What's your whole process here? 488 00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:43,039 Speaker 5: So this started off as an academic article and I 489 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,759 worked on it during a sabbatical I had in twenty seventeen, 490 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:51,559 I got some work done on it, but I also 491 00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:54,079 had a newborn at the time, so I think the 492 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,839 newborn got more attention than doctor Naguccin, but I had. 493 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,839 And what was really fortunate is that the majority of 494 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,079 the research was local. And then I was also very 495 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:10,039 fortunate that then I had friends. And this is a 496 00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:14,680 shout out to my longtime grad school friend Christopher West, 497 00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:16,920 who knew a lot of the key players in this 498 00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,799 story because he had done a lot of extensive research 499 00:30:20,839 --> 00:30:24,079 around Tom Bradley. And there are all these actors are 500 00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:27,279 moving in the same spaces, and He's all he's the 501 00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:29,720 person that I was looking for, Jeff Mutsui, He's oh, 502 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:31,880 I know him. I can get you his email. And 503 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:35,359 it was just like a series of really fortunate events 504 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,079 that allowed things to align, and so I wrote the article. 505 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,920 I wrapped up the article during COVID, so it took 506 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,400 me like three years to do the research, and then 507 00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:47,480 it won the prize that I wanted in my field 508 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:49,920 for that year, and so I thought it was done 509 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,000 and so, okay, great, you know, all my dreams have 510 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:56,400 come true. I won the Francis Wheek Prize for the article, 511 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,920 and so I could just put it away, hey, and 512 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,920 then move on to the next project. But then I 513 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:02,480 took a life of its own other people were interested 514 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,119 in I was like, oh, then I guess I'm gonna 515 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,799 write this book. And because of the faith of my agent, 516 00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:12,400 Michael Signorelli, who sold this project, that I spent a 517 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,359 year both researching and writing, which is I don't advise 518 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,240 this for anybody. I think people should do all the 519 00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:20,759 research first and then. 520 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 521 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 5: And so I'm also not being able to write. I 522 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,160 don't write full time. I have an academic job, and 523 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,319 I work and spent a lot of It came together 524 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,839 because Thomas Negucci. He took up a space in my 525 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,079 head and had a very clear story arc, and because 526 00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:43,480 he was so complicated, which made it interesting to write 527 00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:46,480 about him. If he was just a wonderful person that 528 00:31:46,559 --> 00:31:49,000 did wonderful things all the time and just made great 529 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,960 decisions and everything was perfect, that doesn't lead for a 530 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,079 good biography. But he was a really complicated person that 531 00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:58,759 struggled a lot, and I think in the end his 532 00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:02,000 best nature won out when he did not win his 533 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:04,680 reinstatement as he did the first time. So he's pushed 534 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,240 out again, but then he returns to doing research and 535 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:12,200 teaching and mentoring, and I think that served as better nature. 536 00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:16,559 And he's still alive and doing research. And I heard 537 00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:21,519 recently he just went to a conference, a forensic science conference, 538 00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:24,160 and so he's still active in the field. And it 539 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,680 was my great privilege to write about him. But also, again, 540 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:30,319 as I mentioned earlier, a lot of this was right 541 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,279 in plain sight. The biggest document, the biggest archive I 542 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,640 drew from was the La Times, who covered him extensively. 543 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:41,799 And I think what's very interesting, So I was if 544 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,640 other people are looking for things to research, go back 545 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,359 and read the La Times in the sixties and seventies. 546 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,799 Is just fascinating the things that people wrote about because 547 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,119 reporters covered local news, which meant they did a deep 548 00:32:55,359 --> 00:32:58,759 dive into the things that were going on in La. 549 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:03,920 I read about they had two weeks where they covered 550 00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:07,119 the escape of a bunch of chickens from somewhere right, 551 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,319 so the reporters covering this in depth for two but 552 00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:13,960 it captured like what LA was like in the time. 553 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,000 It's the kind of reporting that people don't do anymore. Yeah, 554 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,960 And I feel really grateful that there were so many 555 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,839 people that were so interested in Thomas Lagucci that they 556 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,880 covered everything like in a way that I would. There's 557 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,799 no way that I could open up the LA Times 558 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:30,839 today and find this kind of coverage, and so I'm 559 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:31,839 really appreciative. 560 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 2: That's very unfortunate. We're also big believers and supporters of newspapers, 561 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,799 and it's a shame to see local press shrinking in 562 00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:46,039 front of our eyes. Help us envision these Los Angeles 563 00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:50,200 Times archives. Are you back there with the microfiche or 564 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:51,279 is it digital? 565 00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:51,599 Speaker 4: Now? 566 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: Are you in some dusty back room? What's it like? 567 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,359 Speaker 5: Part of it was I did a lot of the research. 568 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,880 It was digital. I have access to the LA Times 569 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,720 has a historical archive that it has been digitized, as 570 00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:08,400 does the New York Times. But all the Japanese American 571 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,039 now this is the other. Really, the other big thing 572 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:14,239 that allowed me to write this book was that the 573 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,400 Japanese American newspapers also particularly the Rafu Shimpo, which is 574 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:25,000 the longest oldest Japanese American newspaper in North America, covered 575 00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:28,360 Naguchi in detail as well. And then I did all 576 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,000 that work on microfilm, wow, which was not easy because 577 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,400 I'm visually impaired, and so I worked with a magnifying 578 00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:40,840 glass and blown up copies. And then I was a 579 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,599 little irate that at almost the end of my project 580 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,119 someone digitized it. 581 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: Oh oh great, that would have been awfully helpful at 582 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,760 the front end. 583 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 5: That would have been more helpful earlier in the project. 584 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,079 But I'm really grateful that other people won't have to 585 00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:59,679 work on microfilm. But I actually like microfilms. I like. 586 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,679 The problem with digitized materials is that oftentimes you're just 587 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,719 keywording things in and then you're looking for something. But 588 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,079 with microfilm, you took to read the whole newspaper, and 589 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,480 Thomas Nagucci provided recipes. He taught a cooking class and 590 00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:19,639 so some of the local newspapers had some of his recipes. 591 00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:23,039 I enjoyed. I got a real sense of what the 592 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:27,320 Japanese American community was like in the sixties and seventies 593 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,239 just by reading the entire run of the microfilm reel. 594 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,800 And yeah, and I don't know, I really don't think 595 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,280 people are going to be able to do this kind 596 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,599 of research. Maybe after twenty ten, maybe, I don't know. 597 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,559 But a lot of the research came from really hyper 598 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,599 local journalists, and I think it's a really big loss 599 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,679 that so many of the papers are gone. 600 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 2: What's the inspiration for the original article and what got 601 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,840 you thinking I want to do a piece on this 602 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,679 incredibly innovative medical Examiner. So when we go back to 603 00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:08,039 a couple of years ago during COVID, what is it? 604 00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:09,760 What's the inspiration for. 605 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 5: You in that book i'd been hauling around and that 606 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,000 whole period around COVID. I think like for a lot 607 00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:21,960 of people, I was super fortunate to be a middle 608 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,639 class person in America, and even though I was teaching 609 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,639 and working on Zoom, my husband's working at home and 610 00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:31,559 our kids are at home. Like, it wasn't easy. It 611 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:33,679 wasn't as bad as it could have been. But one 612 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,679 of the silver linings I think about COVID is it 613 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,840 really forced me to slow down because I didn't have 614 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,360 a choice. And then I was thinking maybe I could 615 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,039 do a little bit of writing. I was going back 616 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,559 and forth. I started a few things about Thomas Nkugine, particularly. 617 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,920 I was working on another project about Japanese Americans in 618 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Los Angeles. When I found this stuff on Thomas Degue, 619 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,679 I was like, I wonder if there's more out there, 620 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,239 And I was really fortunate that there were so many 621 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,880 wonderful archivs who I just emailed cold during COVID. They're like, oh, 622 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,199 we can look like we're going to go in on 623 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,679 this day just to do XYZ, but I'll look and 624 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,960 see if there's anything there. And particularly the archivis Jamie 625 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,920 Hendrix at the Japanese American National Museum was wonderful in 626 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,239 helping me whole things and things that weren't even processed. 627 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,840 I just wanted to think about something else besides COVID. 628 00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:31,679 That was the other part too, And escaping into nineteen 629 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,440 sixties seventies Los Angeles was not a bad alternative. I 630 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,719 don't know, and maybe this is just nostalgia gone wrong, 631 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,719 but I just feel like in terms of the possibilities 632 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,440 that were available, I think, not the possiblity. That's not 633 00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:52,519 quite the right word, but it seemed like and maybe 634 00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:54,360 people always say that, but it seemed like such a 635 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:59,119 rich historical time. Yeah, And the other parts of the 636 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:01,239 book that I was just really interested in. I just 637 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,079 Japanese Americans weren't the only people supporting Thomas Negucci, and 638 00:38:06,199 --> 00:38:10,400 they're these kind of ethnic cross racial alliances. And then 639 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,199 also because they involved so many people before they were famous, 640 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,920 like Johnny Cochrane. Sure these were not people like Tom Brad. 641 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,440 These were not people I was expecting to find when 642 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,400 I did the research. 643 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,639 Speaker 4: I know you said you were not able to get 644 00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:27,159 an interview with doctor Nagucci. It sounds like he's pretty 645 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:31,239 well shielded. Do you know, is he aware that you've 646 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,079 got a biography on him coming out? 647 00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:36,679 Speaker 5: I did get to interview him about This is a 648 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,840 really random story. I had eye surgery and on the 649 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,119 day I was at the eye at my surgeon's office, 650 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,880 my husband spotted doctor Nagucci. Oh my god, they called 651 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,159 his name and there he was, and I'm coming out 652 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,920 and then like, I'm just an excruciating pain, and my 653 00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:59,199 husband is telling me that, oh, Thomas Nagucci. I's like, 654 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,719 what are you talking about? And indeed it was doctor Nagucci, 655 00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:07,480 and what are the odds? Yeah, and his foster daughter 656 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:10,440 who was with him. And I don't know, I don't 657 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,039 know what possessed anyone in that particular moment, but I 658 00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:15,920 had a patch over my eye. I'm just in really batch. 659 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,480 But I go and introduce myself and then I and 660 00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,039 I give her my contact information. She gives me her 661 00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:26,039 contact information and then they invited me over. They invited 662 00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:29,519 me over, and oh my god, but it was Doctor 663 00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:34,239 Nagucci is very sharp and it wasn't an interview per se, 664 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,119 but it allowed me to clarify a number of things. 665 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,519 Speaker 4: I am astounded of what a coincidence. 666 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,119 Speaker 5: The Usually usually my husband is looking at fantasy football 667 00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:51,559 stuff and not paying attention to anything, and so he hears, 668 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,360 probably because this project has taken up so much space 669 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,960 in our lives, Like he heard the word Nogucci outside 670 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,000 of the house and that them stop. 671 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 4: And holy cow, I absolutely cannot believe. What are the odds? 672 00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:10,559 So the book is La Coroner, Thomas Dagucci and Jath 673 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:13,599 in Hollywood, And when does the book come out? And 674 00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:15,960 where can our listeners find it if they're interested? 675 00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 5: So it will be available. The release date is April 676 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,800 twenty second. You can find it at Barnes and Nobles 677 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,880 Bookshop and of course Amazon. You can also find me 678 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,079 at La True Crime on Instagram where they'll be additional 679 00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:35,519 I'm supposed to be doing I think a reading and 680 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,920 other local things in all the usual haunts in La 681 00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:41,360 which is again my favorite place in the world. 682 00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 4: Fantastic and thank you so much for taking the time 683 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:46,440 to talk to us today. 684 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 5: We really love the mark. 685 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 4: We loved it and we're looking forward to sharing this 686 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,519 with our listeners, so thank you so much. Great that 687 00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,239 is going to do it for this episode of mind 688 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,119 Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 689 00:40:59,159 --> 00:40:59,760 you next time. 690 00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:12,679 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 691 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,199 Another Dog Productions. 692 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,079 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 693 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 694 00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:23,559 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 695 00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:28,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 696 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 697 00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 698 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,639 Murders on Facebook. 699 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 700 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,079 Bill Thomas five six. 701 00:41:41,559 --> 00:41:44,639 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.