WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:07.919 The paranormal, UFOs, monsters, mysteries. As you're listening to Talking 2 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.439 Weird and now from a Kevin Deep in the northwards 3 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:23.399 your host, Doctor Dean Bertram. 4 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:45.880 Wow, Well, greetings, or my fellow widows and widows, welcome 5 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.240 to Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host, 6 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:53.079 Dean Bertram, and as always I'm delighted you've decided to 7 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.200 spend the next hour or so of my life and 8 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:59.560 your life with me, whether it is watching and listening 9 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:02.520 live when we go out every Thursday night at nine pm, 10 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.799 or perhaps you're watching or listening to it after the fact, 11 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:08.439 where it's archived on YouTube and Facebook and x as 12 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.920 well as the audio only version on almost every podcasts 13 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.319 platform there is on this weird planet. Welcome, thank you 14 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.760 for being here. It's wonderful. It's summer in the north Woods. 15 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:21.159 My daughter and I are planting still so for some 16 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:24.879 later harvesting things. We've got. Our chickens are going wow, 17 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.200 loving this crazy weather. We're going to the lake. It's gorgeous. 18 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:31.840 Summer always is, but summer always makes me think, particularly 19 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:34.200 this time of the year, of the summer of the sources. 20 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.879 Back in nineteen forty seven, where all of this whole, 21 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:40.799 whether you want to call it a belief system, a reality, 22 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:45.920 a delusion, wherever you stand on the UFOs on Flying Sources, 23 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.359 where it all began. And it was literally seventy nine 24 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:55.640 years ago this week, August twenty four when Kenneth Arnold 25 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.159 had his first sighting. He had many sightings throughout his life, incidentally, 26 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.760 but his first sight near Mount Rainier in Washington State, 27 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:07.200 and that triggered the modern UFO era, the Flying Source era. 28 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:09.360 And I can't think of anybody I would rather talk 29 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.560 to about this tonight than our guest. He's an independent researcher, 30 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:18.840 a multimedia specialist, and digital communication strategist. His work explores 31 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.800 the cultural dimensions of anomaloust experience. Through his research, writing, 32 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:28.039 and public presentations, he examines the ways folklore, religion, technology, media, 33 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.599 and belief shape human encounters with the unknown. He is 34 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:37.039 the founder of the Liminal Analytics Applied Research Collaborative and 35 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:41.479 serves as Scholar in Virtual Residence at the Windbridge Institute. 36 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:45.080 He's taught and collaborated with scholars, including Dianna Pasuca, on 37 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:50.039 projects exploring animalistic or anomalistic I should say no animalistic, 38 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:54.080 that's a whole other meaning anomalistic and cultural epistemology. He's 39 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.599 published and collaborative work spans topics ranging from UFO belief 40 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:02.000 and contemporary mythology to Latin America and folk traditions, including 41 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:07.759 extensive research on Santamurta. And I'm delighted, so welcome back 42 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.719 to talking with literally one of the finest thinkers in 43 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:16.360 this very weird space that we're all interested in. David Metcalf, Greetings, very. 44 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.719 Much, Greetings, It's great to be here again. 45 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.240 Man, there's literally nobody I'd rather be talking to about 46 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:21.919 this this week. 47 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.520 I'm you know, I'm really this is great. So yesterday 48 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.400 I did a presentation on Kenneth Arnold in celebration of 49 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.560 the anniversary for the Anomaly Archives in Austin. And you know, 50 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:36.800 this is awesome to be able to do two days 51 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:43.599 celebrating and talking about and exploring this. Really the anniversary of, 52 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.439 like you said, I mean, the beginning, the beginning of 53 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.719 all of this when the name was named, right when 54 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.759 the name was put down on this anomaly, And here 55 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:55.439 we are today. We've got all the document releases and 56 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.639 all that, and it all stems out of one man 57 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.400 flying a clive private plane over some mountains in Washington. 58 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:03.479 It's amazing. 59 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.360 Yeah, it's it's I wondered then, how many people would 60 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.120 have thought this would have gone on for so long. 61 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:12.280 I don't think even euphologers thought it, did. I know 62 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:15.400 that the people who consider themselves second generation, So not 63 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.560 the Ray Palmers and not the not the Gray Barkers, 64 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.079 not the Kenneth Arnold's, not the Donald Keyhos, but people 65 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:23.600 like you know T L and Greenfield and who I know, 66 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:30.040 and and and Jeans Steinberg and Rick Kilberg, that generation 67 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.720 who knew all those original sorceress like this. They said, 68 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:36.639 they'll say, we thought we'd solve it, you know, people, 69 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:37.800 we'd work it out, you know. 70 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:42.079 But that's exactly it when I was talking about it 71 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:43.959 last night, I mean, that's what you know, as I 72 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.319 was doing research for the presentation and that kind of 73 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.759 refreshing myself and finding new threads, you get that sense. 74 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:52.600 I mean when you read that, when you read the 75 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:54.959 stuff from that time period, you know it's like, this 76 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.360 will be solved in a month and a year, we're 77 00:04:57.399 --> 00:04:59.800 going to get on it. And it's amazing to read 78 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.240 the narratives that were going on back then because they're 79 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.399 so similar to what we're what we have today. 80 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:06.839 You know. 81 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:08.959 That was one of the things I explored in my 82 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.959 presentation was just you can literally find all of these 83 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.920 narratives that are being you know, repeated today as if 84 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.000 it's new in a discovery, and you know it's it's 85 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:22.639 all from back then. I made a joke that you know, 86 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.439 you can read it. Go to Tim Beckley's Commander X, right, 87 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:30.279 and you've got you know, just sort of update the 88 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.079 language a little bit, and you have every narrative that 89 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.040 you you possibly could find and the you know, what's 90 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.680 being presented as legitimate and maybe legitimate today. Right. 91 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:43.439 Yeah, It's it's interesting even when you go back to 92 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:49.600 like Keyho's flying sources are real and he's talking like 93 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.519 you just we just knock on the door hard enough. 94 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:53.199 The Air Force know everything they're going to tell us. 95 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:57.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And and there's been lots of knocking. 96 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.480 There's that door is not opening. And you know it's 97 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.240 amazing too because you know, like thinking about like kind 98 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.160 of Tharnold, right, like that's nineteen forty seven. And one 99 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.160 of the things that I was really intrigued by. I 100 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:15.319 recently went back just out of just pleasure reading to 101 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:20.040 my teenage interest in HP Lovecraft's work and those authors, right, 102 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.240 So that's twenties and thirties in that, And as I 103 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.560 was reading through Lovecraft, there were so many little snippets 104 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:33.800 where it's literally the UFO narrative right before there's ever 105 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.480 a UFO. You know, there's Martian canals, and there's other 106 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.560 things that were kind of sparking that idea. But you know, 107 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.839 he's talking about like photographic evidence and Whisper in the 108 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:50.319 dark darkness where he's talking about the how the protagonist 109 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.199 receives these photos and how the photos send him almost 110 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:56.319 into like a you know what is being called now 111 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.000 ontological shock because it's actual evidence of this thing, you know, 112 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.800 and you think about the way that the photos, you know, 113 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:08.800 after the Arnold sighting, right like you know, there's all 114 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.199 of a sudden, there starts to be photos almost immediately 115 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.079 because you know, as you said, some are the saucers. 116 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.680 It wasn't you know, he saw this thing and put 117 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:19.519 a name on it in the news. But he wasn't 118 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.920 the only one seeing things. This was across the entire 119 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:26.959 United States. Within weeks, people were seeing something anomalous and 120 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.560 strange in the Skuis, you know. Yeah, and again with 121 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.399 the Lovecraft thing, Clark Ashton Smith, who was writing for 122 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:39.839 Weird Tales he in the late twenties had a sighting 123 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.519 of what he described as it was a black medior 124 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.120 but it wasn't flying. It was actually flying, right, It 125 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.399 wasn't like a meteor just going and then burning up 126 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.800 and landing or whatever. And he said it was something 127 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.600 that Charles Fort would take note of, right, but he 128 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.680 recognized it as something anomalous, you know. But then this 129 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:02.360 Kenneth Arnold sighting is a thing that puts that name 130 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.800 on it, where suddenly people are, oh, that's that anomaly 131 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:07.920 that I'm looking at. It's a flying saucer, right, or 132 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:12.920 you know ufo. So it's just it's fascinating the just 133 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.399 that that time period and that I can't imagine what 134 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.560 it would be like. You know, there's the news story, 135 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.759 there's the newspaper stories of people just sitting out in 136 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:25.160 their backyard and uh, you know they're seeing these things 137 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.079 in the sky, right, like that's that's incredible. And and 138 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.519 the belief that you know, reading those stories too, how 139 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.399 exciting that would have been to you know, uh, you know, 140 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:36.519 as you said, the first, the first generation, right, and 141 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.840 even the second generation, like knowing that you could step 142 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.440 outside and maybe see something we don't quite have that today. 143 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:46.240 It's I love that you bought love Craft up. That's 144 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.159 one of the reasons I love talking about because so 145 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:52.840 few people today are able to contextualize this within any 146 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:58.440 broader historical or esoteric tradition. And when you look at 147 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.559 the pulps and when you look at love and I 148 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:02.840 think people used to be a little bit broader in 149 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:04.960 their thinking, like if you look, for example, at Mourning 150 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.080 of the Magicians, the book by Bergier empowers it, which 151 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:11.039 kind of is really the I'm sure von Danik and 152 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.039 cribbed from it. I'm sure they had a big impact 153 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.320 on it. But they were conscious of a love Craft 154 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:19.679 and thoughts and you know, Atlantean myths and how all 155 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:21.840 these things into wayn Whether they're right or not in 156 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:26.039 their ultimate thesis, it's still they're able to see the 157 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.080 commonalities in these things. And Lovecraft has direct connection through 158 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.840 the Shaver mystery, which anybody who's here and talks about 159 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.039 all the time will be aware of. Richard Shaver himself 160 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.320 said that he thought Lovecraft as well as a merit 161 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:40.720 who was a more influential author of the time has 162 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.600 been all but forgotten now, but wrote about underground civilizations 163 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:45.879 that those people had too been to the caves, and 164 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.519 they'd had the type of experiences with these extra tras. Now, 165 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.000 I don't think Merit and Lovecraft had actually been to 166 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:53.960 the caverns, but it's a Shaver he was riding as 167 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:56.840 part of this tradition, right, And I think that pulp 168 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:02.000 tradition segued very much into sort. I mean, everybody knows 169 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.799 I talk about Palmer all the time, as you do too, 170 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.960 but Amazing Stories had set up so much of this, 171 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.519 not just with the Shaver mystery, but with the interest 172 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:15.200 of the editor Ray Palmer, who was fascinated with Charles 173 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.320 Ford and constantly talked about fort in his editorials. He's 174 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.759 one of his main writers. Vincent Gaddis, we now look 175 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:22.840 at as one of the main Forteans of the time. 176 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.159 And when the all Shaver issue of Amazing Stories, the 177 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.960 June nineteen forty seven issue was on the news stands, 178 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:33.080 it's when Kenneth Arnold had his sighting and in that issue, 179 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.039 the great Fortien Vincent Gaddis wrote a piece Visitors from 180 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.720 the Void, before he had the term flying sources. He's 181 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.120 essentially talking about the historical cases of flying sources. And 182 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:45.159 this is on American news stands right the day that 183 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.720 Arnold sees the sourcestuff. You're right, I think it's so 184 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.879 important to look back and see how, even as we're 185 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.200 talking about the first seventy nine years of sources, how 186 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.519 this stuff really has a tradition that goes back far 187 00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:59.279 further than that seventy ninety. 188 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:01.639 Well, you know you mentioned Keyho, right, Keyho wrote for 189 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:03.679 Weird Tales in nineteen twenty seven. I think it was 190 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.960 Master of Doom. Was He may have written other ones 191 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:08.759 as well, but the one that I'm familiar with his 192 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.000 Master of Doom. So he was, you know, he was 193 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:15.480 writing for Weird Tales before you know, twenty years before 194 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.879 he he ends up, you know, getting involved in the 195 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:20.720 in the UFO stuff. 196 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:21.720 And the. 197 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:25.840 You know, the other interesting things. The other interesting thing 198 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:29.960 about the that pulp mill you is that there's a 199 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:38.120 really there's a really interesting correlation between Weird Tales ceasing 200 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:42.639 publication and Fate Magazine and Mystic Magazine, which was another 201 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.399 Palmer application coming out. Mystic Magazine actually has its first 202 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.919 issue the same year that Weird Tales has its last 203 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.360 when it's original run. And if you look at the 204 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.159 you know, August Darylis wrote for Fate magazine. Right, So 205 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.320 August Drylis famously being the one who helped popularized Lovecraft 206 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.840 after Lovecraft's death. You know, he he was writing for 207 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.200 Fate magazine. He was writing things for Fate magazine. And 208 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.799 there were there were other authors from Weird Tales, writers 209 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:14.320 from Weird Tales who crossed over into writing for for 210 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.879 Fate and that and for other magazines that were coming 211 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.320 out in that miliu. So there's this really interesting movement 212 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.039 almost where everything that's being covered in Weird Tales, which 213 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.519 you know, as you as you were talking about Shaver's 214 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.240 reaction to Lovecraft, right like, there were people, you know, 215 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.600 Roberty Howard who wrote the Conan stories and some other 216 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.919 conan Asques things, and no, no, not to down in 217 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.039 great Roberty Howard's work, but most people know him for Conan. 218 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:43.320 Right. 219 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.519 So he originally started writing the Lovecraft because he wanted 220 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.080 to he wanted to get in touch with the mythos, 221 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:51.960 right like the actual thing, Like he wanted to know 222 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.080 about these cults and these books and his magic, and 223 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.240 Lovecraft was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Like, that's not what 224 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.639 I'm doing, you know. But you know, love was really 225 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.039 well aware of Fort. He mentions Fort in some of 226 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.639 his stories. You know, you can see the letters between 227 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.440 him and Clark Ashton Smith and other writers. They're talking 228 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:12.519 about Fort and you know, they're talking about Fort as 229 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.919 a way to get information for what they're going to 230 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.759 be writing about in fiction. But you know, there's this 231 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:24.840 this interesting corollary between the fictional expressions of it, which 232 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.519 you know, again people at the time, there were people 233 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.159 who thought Lovecraft was writing was real. He actually had 234 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.360 a correspondent who was a merchant marine or something who 235 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.399 I believe he he helped the guy edit his poetry 236 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.000 and the guy was writing because Weird Tales published poetry 237 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.159 as well, and the guy was writing poetry. But the 238 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:48.159 guy was absolutely convinced one that he had seen these 239 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.440 things right, that he had met these nameless cults, and 240 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.240 that when he was on his thing, so he would 241 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.960 tell these stories about about going out into the woods 242 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:58.440 and meeting you know, cultists or entities and that. But 243 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.720 he told Lovecraft, you keep saying, you don't you know, 244 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.519 you're not writing isn't real, right, Like what you're writing 245 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.879 is in reality, but you're just denying the truth, which 246 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.840 is that you're an unknowing you know, conduit for these 247 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.519 outer you know, for what was the what was the 248 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.559 goddess thing the visitors from the voice? Right, yeah, like 249 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:20.399 you're an unknowing conduit for this. 250 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.720 So that's just quickly how amazed those people must have 251 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.240 been who had those kind of theories when Ray Palmer 252 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.879 would let them write letters to amazing stories in reference 253 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.519 to the Shavin mystery and when they said we've had 254 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:37.840 these encounters poo pooed them, right, Palma one of those letters, 255 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:40.399 you know, Shame responded to those letters. 256 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.200 Right, and you know, and it's funny. And then and 257 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.720 then that's the transition is between you know, because Weird 258 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.480 Tales was getting those letters as well, but it was 259 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:50.639 always framed as fiction. And then the fiction starts to 260 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.879 go away when suddenly you have you know, flying saucers, right, 261 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.840 Arnold has this thing, the name is put on it, 262 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.240 and suddenly these things that have been written about become 263 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.600 more real, you know. And at the time period as well, 264 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.879 you know, jb Ryan starts to get sort of popularized 265 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:10.440 in the thirties, and so by the time the forties 266 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.600 is around, you have you know and jb Ryan being 267 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.279 the person who sort of started scientific parapsychology, so you know, 268 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.320 the psychical aspect of it is now being presented as science, right. 269 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.559 And you have the Air Force investigations. That's one of 270 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:28.240 the really interesting things about that the time period with 271 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:34.480 Arnold is because the Air Force gets involved, it suddenly 272 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:38.200 authorizes it in a certain way. And you see the 273 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.720 Air Force's involvement being used by all these different groups 274 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.600 to sort of say this is real, right. The Government's 275 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:46.600 looking at it, the Air Force is investigating this, this 276 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.279 is real, including revivalists. There was a big healing revival 277 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.360 going on at the time, and you have people at 278 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:56.879 Gordon Lindsay who was in the same kind of revival circles, 279 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:01.519 Oral Roberts and that, you know, Gordon Lindsay is writing 280 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.799 these articles for Voice of Healing about the prophetic significance 281 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.759 of the Flying Saucers right as this sign of the 282 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:11.000 Second Coming, and those articles that were in the Voice 283 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.279 of Healing, Palmer actually ends up republishing later in some 284 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.600 issues of Flying Saucer magazine, you know, And so there's 285 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.840 this amazing cross current of authorization and all of that, 286 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.480 and again all of it stemming from you know, this 287 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.360 arnold sighting, which becomes sort of this just it put 288 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.799 the pin in the in the butterfly, and you could 289 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.279 say that it existed. 290 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.200 You know, absolutely. I'm going to loop back to a 291 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:38.120 lot of that in a minute. We have a question 292 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.039 from a good friend of the show. He's also a 293 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.480 guest of the show, Horace Smith, who's Professor Emers of 294 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:46.559 Astronomy and Physics at Michigan State University. He's also a 295 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.039 massive Lovecraft fan. He's written a book on Lovecraft, He's 296 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.360 written pieces on Lovecraft. Oh excellent, And he says, your 297 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:53.919 guest is very familiar with Lovecraft. Has he read the 298 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.440 extensive collections of Lovecraft's letters published by Hippo Campus Press. 299 00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:59.639 Funnily enough, I got two Hippo Campus Press books in 300 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:00.559 the mail the other day. 301 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:00.799 Yeah. 302 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:06.440 St. Josh's Life Life in Lovecraft's Yeah, yeah, and the 303 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.480 I forget the title of I haven't read yet, the St. 304 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.480 Joshi fictional novel about Lovecraft, but it's funny. So that anyway, 305 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:14.640 So have you have you read those? 306 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.160 Those I've read? So I've read excerpts from it, but 307 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.440 I haven't read the actual ones. Actually, the only Hippocampus 308 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.440 Press book I have is the awesome annotated edition of 309 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.680 Fungi from You Goth just because I absolutely love that 310 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.880 that They They send chills through through me when I 311 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.240 when I read that poetry, and there's that great Canadian 312 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:37.319 recording too, it's like late eighties synth background and uh, 313 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.880 guy reading just a really beautiful reading of the poems. 314 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.039 But yeah, I mean the Lovecraft letters. I'm glad he 315 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.400 brought those up because that's it's such a rich trove 316 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.160 of material. I also want to get the one his 317 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.599 correspondence with Clark Ashton Smith, which is where that that 318 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.960 black Meteorite U anecdote comes from. And uh, just so 319 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.400 interesting to see them, you know, see to see what's 320 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:02.799 behind the writing, you know, and and also I think 321 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.279 that you know, obviously Lovecraft is fairly controversial to a 322 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:11.559 certain extent, but to see the person right behind that 323 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.079 and to see to see the thought that went into it, 324 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.319 and that the complex and kind of rich intellectual life 325 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.599 that he had really deepens the stories. So thank you 326 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:26.440 for bringing that up, because now I'm more excited to 327 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.480 go to go acquire more books. 328 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.240 When when I have some spare money, I am. I've 329 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.799 looked at it many times. I want to push the 330 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.640 button on the Arkham House collected Lovecraft letters, but there 331 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.519 they're very expensive. Yeah, I have a little Arkham collection. 332 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.920 It's it's a guilty pleasure of mine. I don't have 333 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:43.960 those in it yet. Though. Back to the back to 334 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.640 the sources though, So let's maybe this is you know, 335 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.640 we were we were we were talking about Keyho and 336 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.440 we've talked a lot about the lead up to it, 337 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.000 and we've spoken a little bit about Arnold. I want 338 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.079 to tell you something that I just saw the other day. 339 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.559 It just occurred to me now to talk about. I 340 00:18:57.559 --> 00:18:58.880 don't even know who I was going to plan to, 341 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:01.960 but I I don't know why. Maybe I was looking. 342 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.839 I was googling, as you do something, and some AI 343 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.519 recommend it, like some AI interpretation of my script or 344 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.400 AI thing popped up in Google or start page or 345 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.079 wherever the devil I was searching, and it talked something 346 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:20.359 about how American. The American public fascination with flying sources 347 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.559 began with two things in nineteen forty seven, Kenneth Arnold 348 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.480 Siding and the Roswell crash a week later, and from 349 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.200 them on, Oh, they were all excited about it. Funnily enough, 350 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:33.079 I had congress people say the same thing in congressional hearings. 351 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.880 Ever since the forty seven crash in Roswell, the American 352 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.400 people have wanted. But this is something a professor of 353 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.279 mine at university, the late I don't know if you 354 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:42.119 I shouldn't say Late Green, I don't happy's still alive. 355 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:43.359 I haven't talked to him for so long. But he 356 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.759 was older Bob Drea, who was this incredible polymath, and 357 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.559 he wasn't an official supervisor of my dissertation, but he 358 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.920 was an unofficial supervisor and a good friend. And something 359 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.599 he told me early on which really helped me, really 360 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.079 helped me thinking on this whole thing, was because he 361 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:02.519 knew a lot about other secret additions in European esotericism, 362 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.400 like he understood the history of Masonry and Illuminati and 363 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.559 things like that, to the capacity that the people who 364 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.039 believe in these things, their history is often different to 365 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.480 the actual history if you laid it out. So Masons 366 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.960 might say, well, we trace our you know, back to 367 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.559 the Temple of Solomon. But if you look at the 368 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.160 actual history of masonry. You can go well, free masonry, well, 369 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.079 it seems to start here, you know, like in the 370 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.960 eighteenth century or whenever it is right youupology is very 371 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.440 similar and it's history. And this is something I'll throw 372 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.319 the ball back to you. Seems too as much as 373 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.599 we can see the same themes coming up again and again, 374 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.720 as we mentioned early on, and you're so right about that, 375 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.720 but its history seems to be reimagined and doesn't seem 376 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.480 to be an accurate history of what took place. And 377 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.960 I bring up the Roswell thing as I do often 378 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.680 because AI is wrong. The congress people were wrong, the 379 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.640 American public weren't. Roswelld didn't spark any fascination in them. 380 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.400 The news story got picked up by you know, news 381 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.640 wise all around the world, but then the next day, 382 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.440 when the Air Force said up was just a weather balloon, 383 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.359 it got dropped just as soon. It doesn't appear in 384 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.079 any of the UFO literature for almost the first thirty years. 385 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.119 But now we talk about Roswell as being the defining 386 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.000 moment always historically, so much so that AI will tell 387 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:17.319 us and Congress people will tell us that's when the 388 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.519 American public got interested, just as that as a kind 389 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.680 of a launch for the next part of the conversation, 390 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.640 What do you think about the difference between an historical 391 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:31.119 reality and maybe an imagined or a re envisaged history 392 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.720 by the people who subscribe to the belief systems. 393 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.160 Yeah, I mean that's a that's a perfect example because 394 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:37.440 you know, as you said, I mean it was late 395 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.640 it was late seventies when Rosweald gets brought back into 396 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:45.480 the conversation, and it's actually after maybe it was asked, 397 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.519 I don't know it was Stringfeld, right, was he's the 398 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:54.119 one who is the has the crash crash retrieval report. Yeah, 399 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:56.680 and you know it was It wasn't until he started 400 00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:58.880 writing some and it wasn't Roswell that he was writing about. 401 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.240