1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,080
Speaker 1: God and religion have the same fatal flaw. They don't

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,759
feel inherently dangerous or problematic. It's comforting to think that

3
00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:09,160
there's a cosmic father or mother that loves you and

4
00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:11,880
cares for you. Maybe they have a plan for you

5
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,199
and might even grant you protection and favor. The problem

6
00:00:15,359 --> 00:00:17,760
is that nothing prevents a person from standing in front

7
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,320
of a large group of believers and claiming that God

8
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,839
communicated with them, and now they get to make war brides,

9
00:00:23,839 --> 00:00:27,399
commit genocide and burn down villages. And since God cannot

10
00:00:27,399 --> 00:00:30,800
be questioned, human beings are motivated by an imaginary voice

11
00:00:30,839 --> 00:00:34,280
to do the unthinkable, and often under threat themselves by

12
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,920
said invisible being. Thus, the very idea of a supreme

13
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,039
being existing while also being hidden and acting in mysterious

14
00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:46,159
ways inevitably results in mankind acting out their worst instincts

15
00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,759
under the guise of divine authority. Religion is the greatest

16
00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:52,759
bait and switch in history. It starts with God loves you,

17
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,359
and it ends with get on the fucking train. But

18
00:00:55,399 --> 00:00:58,200
if you have evans for this cosmic dictator, let us know.

19
00:00:58,359 --> 00:00:59,399
The show starts now.

20
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,400
Speaker 2: Coome Ben Friends. It's April twelve, twenty twenty six. I

21
00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:12,239
am happy to be with you all and happy to

22
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,760
be with my co host J Mike today.

23
00:01:13,799 --> 00:01:16,799
Speaker 3: How are you doing, buddy, I'm doing great. I'm I'm

24
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,519
looking extra vampirey today. I'm looking like a Skyrim mod

25
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,799
with like the bloom thrown on because of my weird

26
00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:26,000
lighting that I did. I gave. I give the producers

27
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,120
like the probably the hardest time in the world with everything.

28
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,280
So everybody in the chat give them love because I

29
00:01:31,359 --> 00:01:33,120
only make things difficult for them.

30
00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 2: I promise it's a whole vibe.

31
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,079
Speaker 3: Though it works, it's not them, It's the Skit's the

32
00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:42,000
vampire's skin. It just like comes off.

33
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,120
Speaker 1: So I completely understand. But then again, we were talking earlier.

34
00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:49,079
Speaker 2: About philosophy and wizardry.

35
00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 1: Do you find that having at least a little bit

36
00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,680
of a wizard's beard helps with philosophy?

37
00:01:55,719 --> 00:01:59,959
Speaker 3: It does, And like you, I like a professional wrestling gimmick,

38
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,359
you know, so if I have to shed this gimmick,

39
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,560
I can be like a wizard. And you know that

40
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,919
I can. I get two. I can have a gimmick

41
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:14,000
of two supernatural personas for the show. So I'm I'm okay,

42
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,240
I'm actually like I asked if they could filter out

43
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,560
some of the grays and my beard, but I'm actually

44
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:20,680
gonna go I'm gonna go full on. You were there,

45
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,199
you were I'm not making this up. You heard it,

46
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,120
you heard me. It wasn't serious. I swear I'm not.

47
00:02:26,199 --> 00:02:27,919
I'm not that delusional. I think that we could do

48
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,120
that right now, but I'm gonna I think I'm gonna

49
00:02:31,159 --> 00:02:33,439
embrace it. I think I realized then it would look

50
00:02:33,479 --> 00:02:36,840
pretty cool to look like a I don't know Greg

51
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,319
said the name, but I'm not good with fictional characters

52
00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:42,159
outside of God and Jesus, so you know you have

53
00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:42,759
to help me out.

54
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,599
Speaker 2: Well, I think all the most powerful wizards that have

55
00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:48,520
been in the media have had gray beards. I could

56
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:48,879
be wrong.

57
00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:53,599
Speaker 3: It also like adds like plus five stat bonus to

58
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:54,400
your philosophy.

59
00:02:54,439 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, friends, we've got a couple announcements

60
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,319
and then we've got some people loading up in the

61
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,400
call in q already if you want to call in

62
00:03:06,439 --> 00:03:08,960
the numbers five one two nine nine to one nine

63
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,039
two four two.

64
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,039
Speaker 2: We'd love to talk about your God today.

65
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,240
Speaker 1: And we've got J Mike with us, which means if

66
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,560
you've got like a formal syllogism or if you've got

67
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,919
some philosophical answer to the problem of God, hey, we're

68
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:20,680
happy to hear it.

69
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,199
Speaker 2: In fact, I've got a notepad open.

70
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 1: I'll take notes while j Mike educates all of us

71
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,080
on whatever syllogism we're going to be diving into.

72
00:03:28,159 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 2: So whatever your God concept is, whether there's.

73
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,439
Speaker 1: Jesus or Allah or the God of classical theism, as

74
00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:37,280
they say, hey, we're happy to listen to the God

75
00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:41,840
concept and we'll evaluate fairly before that. The Atheists Experienced

76
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,039
Friends is a product of the Atheist Community of a Bustin,

77
00:03:44,199 --> 00:03:48,039
a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to

78
00:03:48,199 --> 00:03:51,919
the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the

79
00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:56,680
separation of religion and government. Also reminder, we are try

80
00:03:56,759 --> 00:03:59,199
streaming tonight a big shout out to our viewers on

81
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,759
TikTok and and on YouTube mobile. If you're watching on

82
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,120
TikTok tonight and you'd like to talk to us, you

83
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,360
can hit the request button. You'll get joined up to

84
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,560
the queue and we'll bring you on stage just as

85
00:04:09,639 --> 00:04:12,840
though you're having a TikTok forum. Please make sure that

86
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,439
you're over the age of eighteen though, in order to

87
00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:18,439
comply with our terms of service and also with the

88
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,839
TikTok terms of service. We cannot talk to children, That's

89
00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:25,079
what priests served for. Nevertheless, we can't talk to full

90
00:04:25,079 --> 00:04:27,639
grown adults about the God concepts that you hold, and

91
00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:29,600
we're more than happy to give a fair shake.

92
00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:31,879
Speaker 2: In fact, I used to be a believer.

93
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,040
Speaker 1: I changed my mind based on what I would consider

94
00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:36,319
new evidence, different thinking.

95
00:04:36,439 --> 00:04:39,120
Speaker 2: So if there was better evidence out there, I mean,

96
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,240
I think it would convince me. Would it convince you? Jim, Mike,

97
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,040
what would convince me? Sorry, it was say, if there

98
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,800
was good evidence, I think it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so

99
00:04:48,959 --> 00:04:50,560
you think, Yeah.

100
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 3: My brain, my brain like stopped for like those words

101
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,399
went in, they stopped for a beer on the way,

102
00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:58,040
and then that's I don't know what happened with my

103
00:04:58,079 --> 00:04:58,560
brain there.

104
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,519
Speaker 2: Alright, Well, listen, we've got a theist online already, Steve

105
00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:07,920
calling in from Ohio Go Dog Pound and wants to

106
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,199
discuss the Noah Hyde laws. So let's see what's going

107
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,040
on here. Steve, Welcome to XP with Justin and Jim.

108
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,519
How you doing this sounds like.

109
00:05:16,519 --> 00:05:19,639
Speaker 3: Something that I'm more of an expert than you, jesin jected,

110
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:21,600
take it away.

111
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,000
Speaker 4: Well, Steve here, I'm.

112
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,040
Speaker 2: Sorry, I can hear you just a little bit quiet? Okay, okay,

113
00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:37,160
So Steve, first of all, what God do you follow?

114
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 5: What God do I follow? I'm Christian?

115
00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:43,600
Speaker 6: So all right?

116
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,839
Speaker 5: The guy named Jesus in the Holy Spirit, so I

117
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,480
would say the Trinity all in one?

118
00:05:49,959 --> 00:05:50,959
Speaker 2: Sure? Fantastic.

119
00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:54,519
Speaker 1: And did you want to present an argument for God

120
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,439
or did you just have a question about the NOA

121
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:57,480
Hyde laws?

122
00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,879
Speaker 5: You know, it's kind of heard about it two weeks ago.

123
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,680
I was I heard that they were possibly coming back,

124
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,879
and I was surprised. And when I heard about it,

125
00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:08,639
it sounded just like the Mark of the Beast. It

126
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,800
really did part of the laws, an it was part

127
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,720
of it anyways, but some laws come along with this.

128
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,399
So yeah, I didn't know I was going to be

129
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,800
talking about it today, but we'll go ahead and do this.

130
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:20,680
It'll be fine.

131
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,519
Speaker 2: You didn't know that you were going to be talking

132
00:06:22,519 --> 00:06:23,480
about the no Hide laws?

133
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 5: Well what do you want to calling you guys?

134
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:25,160
Speaker 6: Up?

135
00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:27,279
Speaker 5: I was asking about something else and I said, well,

136
00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:29,560
you know, I was kind of curious about the subject anyway,

137
00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:32,519
So here I am. Huh, but yeah, hear the Noah

138
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,560
Hide laws. You guys might know about more about it

139
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,160
than I do. I'm sure you do, and uh, but

140
00:06:37,199 --> 00:06:39,680
I know a little bit. And uh, I guess back

141
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,519
in Reagan and Bush's day, George's Bush, they signed something

142
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,199
into law. They did something back there, and and anyways,

143
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,480
it's going to be implemented. Part of a reset is

144
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,079
from what I hear.

145
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,600
Speaker 1: Sure, but we're talking about Noah, did you want to

146
00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:57,079
talk about the no Hyde laws?

147
00:06:57,439 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 5: Yes, I do, no High laws.

148
00:06:59,439 --> 00:06:59,959
Speaker 2: What's your question?

149
00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:04,399
Speaker 5: Well, the question is have you heard about them?

150
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 6: Yeah.

151
00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:08,639
Speaker 1: It's basically seven different laws that are essentially supposed to

152
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,879
be pre mosaic, even though they do come up into

153
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,680
mosaic laws. So there's like you can't commit adultery, blasphemy, murder,

154
00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:18,240
and then sexual immorality. Although that one.

155
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,560
Speaker 5: That's the big problems.

156
00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,920
Speaker 1: I said that, like the first or second one also

157
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,600
also theft, and then also the sixth or seventh one

158
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,160
is usually not to eat the blood of a living animal,

159
00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:38,240
but there's different variants of that.

160
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 3: Unfortunately on first God this week, so I guess I'm

161
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:42,920
kind of screwed.

162
00:07:45,279 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 2: The Tepans one is kind of generic. It's basically that

163
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,439
you just need to enact justice. But that's still vague

164
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,319
in the text, it's hard to say that's really it

165
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,800
should be considered a law.

166
00:07:57,279 --> 00:07:59,120
Speaker 5: I mean they do say quite a bit about it, actually,

167
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,439
I mean the hide laws when they put them in.

168
00:08:01,879 --> 00:08:03,720
One thing they caught them is just one of many

169
00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,560
is you're not supposed to have idols. May consider Jesus

170
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,879
an idol. So if you do that, you can get beheaded.

171
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,000
I here absolutely if you break that law.

172
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 2: Well, in the Bible typically you would be stoned.

173
00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:20,519
Speaker 1: But if you read the Talmet, they do have four

174
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,279
different punishments for people that get capital punishment. There's behinding,

175
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,959
there's strangulation, there're stoning.

176
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 2: And then hanging them up the dry in the wood.

177
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:32,679
There's another one somewhere in there too.

178
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,840
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, all right, I feel like maybe there's a

179
00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:38,159
question in here, but maybe we didn't catch it yet.

180
00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:38,799
Speaker 2: What's the question?

181
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 5: Well, it's coming this way. It's kind of an evil system,

182
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,360
to put it bluntly, very evil. It's part of the

183
00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:50,399
synagogue at Satan.

184
00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 6: It's what it is to have laws.

185
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,799
Speaker 5: Was that, No, No, I don't mind laws. There's ten commandments.

186
00:08:58,039 --> 00:09:00,240
That's what I go by, not seven laws. As I

187
00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:04,159
go by ten. So I honored that Okay, no, I

188
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,240
can't hold I can't do them perfect.

189
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,440
Speaker 1: You know that Jesus, part of the ten Commandments cross

190
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,360
over this right, like not committing murder, not doing.

191
00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 4: That, that's in the Ten Commandments anyway, So why idolatry?

192
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 2: So what's wrong with these no hyde laws?

193
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,639
Speaker 5: Well, for one, it's back in Noah's day, like the

194
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,000
Times of no It reminds me of something else. But anyways,

195
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,919
back in Noah, like it's like, you can't take a

196
00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:31,399
limb from a living animal. Well back then they didn't

197
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,960
have refrigerators, so I guess they did that they would

198
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,399
cut off a limb while the animal is alive, and

199
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,120
that's like torture to them, and no kidding anyways, So yeah,

200
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,960
no hide laws are strange to have them come back

201
00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:46,200
though in this day.

202
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,519
Speaker 2: Typically Genesis nine to four is supposed to be and

203
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,360
most Jews recognize this as eating the blood. Right, that's

204
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,879
what the Viticus says, that life is in the blood.

205
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 1: So when it says in Genesis and not to eat

206
00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:02,840
the animal with the life in it, that typically means

207
00:10:02,879 --> 00:10:05,799
the blood. It doesn't mean that you can't, uh, like

208
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,080
while it's still giving its last breath.

209
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 2: But Nevertheless, that's neither here nor there.

210
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what the point of the

211
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,480
call is the point.

212
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,519
Speaker 5: Coming Wait a minute, why is it even coming back?

213
00:10:19,639 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 3: This is not what do you okay? Can I ask you?

214
00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:23,120
What do you mean it's coming back? What are you

215
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,840
saying it online?

216
00:10:25,919 --> 00:10:28,320
Speaker 5: People are trying to push it and now that but.

217
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,440
Speaker 3: There's people are trying to push crystals online. I wouldn't

218
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,200
say crystals are coming back like they were they were

219
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,799
established and wait.

220
00:10:34,639 --> 00:10:35,759
Speaker 5: Why would you find it more?

221
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,440
Speaker 3: But now they're you know, their back. Baby.

222
00:10:38,759 --> 00:10:40,759
Speaker 1: I've been praying to this crystal right here though, and

223
00:10:40,759 --> 00:10:42,519
it's answered as many prayers as Jesus.

224
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,440
Speaker 2: So maybe crystals are the way.

225
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 3: I'll put it this way, just to help you out,

226
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,960
Like what if they come back? Like I assume that's

227
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,720
like some ad popular and like there's a lot of

228
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,879
people that believe it kind of thing I would just say,

229
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,200
I don't. I mean, there's reasons I should care, but

230
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,919
I don't care the fact that a bunch of people

231
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,919
think some thing that they think is true. There's still

232
00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:04,159
a full separate question on whether or not that's true

233
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,240
or we should we should follow those imperatives, right, I

234
00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:09,559
would argue we shouldn't, right, so I just wouldn't care.

235
00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:11,480
And it's like coming to me with like a moral

236
00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:12,240
factor machine.

237
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 5: You get it, you get it. I don't get it

238
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:15,960
because it's part of the mark of the Beast. I

239
00:11:16,039 --> 00:11:18,360
mean you're gonna get it because I don't anything.

240
00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:19,799
Speaker 3: I don't believe in any of that stuff. So I

241
00:11:19,799 --> 00:11:20,519
don't really know what that.

242
00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:22,320
Speaker 5: That's what I said.

243
00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:25,519
Speaker 2: How is how is the Noah Hyde laws of mark

244
00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:27,200
of the Beast? Because the Mark of the Beast is

245
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:28,320
just the name of Nero.

246
00:11:29,639 --> 00:11:30,399
Speaker 5: Oh no, it's not.

247
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 4: It is.

248
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:36,039
Speaker 3: It's like six one six and like originally.

249
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:37,799
Speaker 6: Yeah.

250
00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,320
Speaker 1: So the reason why, first of all, scholars overwhelmingly agree

251
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,600
that it's Nero for a lot of reasons. One because

252
00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:47,600
the manuscripts in Greek mostly say six six sixth, which

253
00:11:47,639 --> 00:11:49,840
if you do the camatria on that, it comes out

254
00:11:49,879 --> 00:11:53,440
to neuron kiser, which is the Greek nominal ending for

255
00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:56,200
his name. If you look at the Latin manuscripts, they

256
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,559
say six one six yeh, which follows the Latin Ied

257
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,519
spelling of Nero's name. And we also have another variant,

258
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,039
to believe it or not, in Greek, it's six h

259
00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:06,399
six what comes out to gaias Kaiser, which at one

260
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,000
point was a nickname for two different Caesars, one of

261
00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:12,279
them Nero, I learned something.

262
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:13,080
Speaker 2: Thank you.

263
00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 5: Justin I would just say, don't put anything in your

264
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,799
arm or i'm sorry, your hand or your forehead. I

265
00:12:19,799 --> 00:12:23,039
would advise anybody not to do that and mark themselves.

266
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,000
It's coming back all this stuff, and that's what all

267
00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:28,159
these machines we got, these ais.

268
00:12:27,799 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 2: Not those but the mean nothing.

269
00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:34,879
Speaker 3: But it's coming back. It's like it's like a movie theater.

270
00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:37,159
Speaker 5: It's coming mark of the Beast. It makes think, it's fun.

271
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,399
Speaker 1: The mark of the Beast is symbolic, the at least

272
00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:43,320
the part where you put it on your hand or

273
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:43,840
your forehead.

274
00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:47,759
Speaker 2: That's why in Revelations thirteen and fourteen, if.

275
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,399
Speaker 1: You just read on into the next chapter, we also

276
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,200
hear that there are human beings. In fact, the same chapter,

277
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,919
there are human beings who have marks on their forehead.

278
00:12:56,159 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 2: But they're not from the beast. They're actually from the Lord.

279
00:13:00,039 --> 00:13:02,799
Speaker 5: Okay, I know that I got what you're saying there.

280
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,399
I would say that I'm marked with God as far

281
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,159
as the forehead. That's what I think. With in a

282
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,799
hands or by action, I get that, but this is

283
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,120
going to be literal. That's what I'm talking about. Now

284
00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:14,399
the laws will come into play.

285
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 1: So what do you mean by literal, Because it says

286
00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:22,080
in Revelation fourteen nine, right, another angel a third of

287
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,080
the follower a third followed them, crying a loud voice.

288
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,080
Those who worship the beast in its image receive a

289
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,159
brand on their foreheads, or on their foreheads, or on

290
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,320
their hands. But then, when we keep reading, when we've

291
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,720
got the harvest, it says, then I looked and there

292
00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:40,080
was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one

293
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,559
like the son of Man, with a golden crown on

294
00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:44,600
his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

295
00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 2: And then if you.

296
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: Keep reading, it talks about how the Christians are going

297
00:13:48,519 --> 00:13:51,799
to be reaped, as you might say suggest, and they've

298
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,159
got a mark on their forehead, which is these are

299
00:13:55,279 --> 00:13:58,720
a reminiscent of the tephilem. So do you know about

300
00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:59,559
the prayer boxes?

301
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:01,480
Speaker 5: Huh?

302
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,320
Speaker 2: No, I know about the prayer boxes.

303
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 5: I have no idea.

304
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,240
Speaker 2: So what they would do?

305
00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:10,559
Speaker 1: The ancient Jews would put prayer boxes with Bible versus

306
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,720
on their forehead, and they would bind them to their hand.

307
00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:16,720
According to Deuteronomy, chapter six. So people who wore these

308
00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:21,879
were considered stealed to the Lord. Is that's why we

309
00:14:21,919 --> 00:14:26,120
see this language inside of Revelation. It's it's picking up

310
00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:29,559
on this idea that those that are opposed to God

311
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,360
will be sealed on their hand, in their forehead in

312
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,080
the opposite manner to the beast, whereas those who are

313
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,919
sealed to Yahweh will have the appropriate seal on them.

314
00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 5: Right right, Okay, Well, alls I know is for one

315
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,919
thing is that you don't take any marks far as

316
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,000
putting any anything they buy, sell or trade with, it'll

317
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,440
be something that actually goes to the computer system. That

318
00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:56,519
the computer system is part of the beast. It's everywhere,

319
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,440
and that's that's what they want to implement. I mean,

320
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,600
it's right. We got this huge buildings everywhere right next

321
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,639
to us by the way, tanks about by mile down

322
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,320
the road, a strip of buildings. I live in Ohio

323
00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:08,399
and Columbus Hilliar.

324
00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 2: Does this have to do with the march?

325
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,559
Speaker 1: This is completely unrelated Revelation fourteen to one. Look, there

326
00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:19,080
was the lamb standing on Zion, and with him were

327
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,360
one hundred and forty four thousand who had his name,

328
00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:25,679
had his name and his father's name written on their foreheads.

329
00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:28,519
Do you think that the Christians, the one hundred and

330
00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:31,879
forty four thousand Jews who essentially become Christians, that they're

331
00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,759
going to have Jesus and Yahweh literally written on their foreheads.

332
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,879
Speaker 5: Well, I who knows, But I will say this that

333
00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:42,039
you're talking about the twelve tribes at twelve thousand from

334
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,639
each tribe. That's the one hundred and forty four thousand.

335
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,320
The Jewish people that have never defiled themselves with a woman.

336
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,639
That would not be me. I've defiled myself with a woman,

337
00:15:51,759 --> 00:15:54,399
So I have this. I'm not Jewish, even though you know,

338
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,039
blah blah blah. But you're not supposed to take the

339
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,840
mark of the beast. That's that's what I want to

340
00:15:59,399 --> 00:16:01,440
here's a deal, no Hide laws. We'll go with this,

341
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,960
and if a Christian takes it up he was, they

342
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000
are damned to go to Hell. They cannot take this

343
00:16:07,159 --> 00:16:10,039
mark or the Noah Hyde laws. They go together. I

344
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,559
do believe, and if you.

345
00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:15,039
Speaker 1: Do, But the Noahide laws aren't related to the mark

346
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:15,519
of the beast.

347
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 2: The mark of the beast is about.

348
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,679
Speaker 1: Nero and the Noah Hyde laws are just laws that

349
00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:23,919
existed prior to the Laws of Moses. So the reason

350
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,360
why Noahyde laws are making comeback is because there's a

351
00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:29,600
lot of Christians that are deconverting from Christianity and going

352
00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:33,279
to Judaism because they're recognizing that Christianity is not a

353
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,679
logical extension of the Hebrew religion.

354
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 2: So, and I agree with them. I think the Jewish

355
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:38,799
were right to.

356
00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:41,000
Speaker 1: Have Jesus are murdered in the way that they did

357
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,639
because he committed laws against their own religion that we're

358
00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:47,840
worthy of capital punishment. So a lot of Christians are saying, hey,

359
00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:50,120
maybe this Jesus thing didn't work out, but the God

360
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,360
of the Hebrew Bible is still real, So what do

361
00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:54,200
I need to do to be part of that religion. Well,

362
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,159
they don't have to follow the six hundred and fourteen

363
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,559
laws give the Moses because that's a specific covenant with

364
00:16:59,559 --> 00:17:03,120
a specific people. So most Jews, when you have a

365
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,279
goy Eme or a GOI convert to the religion, they'll

366
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:10,400
say follow the seven Noah Hyde laws, the pre Mosaic laws,

367
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,000
rather than trying to stick to the six hundred and

368
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:13,920
fourteen laws.

369
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,039
Speaker 2: So that's why it's making a comeback, I say something

370
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:17,480
to seven.

371
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 5: That's like titles. There's there's at least one hundred laws

372
00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:22,319
that come along with that. You've got to mention that.

373
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,480
You forgot to mention that that those are more or

374
00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:26,519
less titles for it. And then you have to get

375
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:28,839
into death and they say there's like a hundred of them.

376
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,160
And I've heard that over and over. So you might

377
00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:33,759
want to tell your audience that much that there's a

378
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,480
hundred laws that come with it and blasphemy. Don't do that.

379
00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:38,920
Speaker 2: Now, what is one hundred laws that come with me?

380
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,559
Speaker 5: The Noahide laws? Those are like.

381
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 1: There's those are seven noah Hyde laws. And Christians have

382
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:46,559
laws too. I don't know if you knew that.

383
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,400
Speaker 5: No, yeah, I know Christians have, but we don't force

384
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:50,440
them on people. For one.

385
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:53,880
Speaker 2: And the thing is, no one said that they're being

386
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:54,680
forced on anyone.

387
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,680
Speaker 5: Well, they will be, there will be, there will be, Well,

388
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,920
they won't be.

389
00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:02,880
Speaker 2: Why why would they be forced on anyone?

390
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 5: Because they will wait for some type of tragedy to happen,

391
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,599
which you know could happen to any moment.

392
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: Who is who's forcing it?

393
00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:13,839
Speaker 5: Well, it would be the.

394
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,640
Speaker 2: Who's forcing them? Well, which government? Which government?

395
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,759
Speaker 1: Is going to be forcing people to follow the seven

396
00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:20,799
Noah Hyde Laws.

397
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 5: Well, they signed them in back, and what you can

398
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,160
help me out was it was it George H. Bush

399
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:25,599
or Reagan?

400
00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 1: Just trying to get your answer, which individuals, which people?

401
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,480
Which government are going to be forcing people to follow

402
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:32,759
the NOA.

403
00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:33,519
Speaker 2: Hyde Laws?

404
00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:38,279
Speaker 5: All right, our government will force these people, I imagine.

405
00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:40,559
I'm guessing. I would imagine because they're the ones that

406
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,440
signed it into law, so I imagine they.

407
00:18:43,279 --> 00:18:44,839
Speaker 2: Would know what into law.

408
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 5: I think.

409
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 3: I think guessing was the most honest word you've said today.

410
00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 5: All Right, the no Hyde laws. Can you trace them

411
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,599
back to you know, George H. Bush who signed whatever

412
00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:57,039
it was? Could you have it in front of you.

413
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,319
I don't have this stuff, Firch H.

414
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,839
Speaker 1: Bush did not sign any Noah Hide laws into the legislation.

415
00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:04,720
Speaker 5: They put it. Now you're playing games.

416
00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:07,599
Speaker 3: You didn't see it. It's right after you know, no children,

417
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:10,240
no child left behind. It threw it right at the bottom.

418
00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:13,079
Speaker 2: We said, well that policy worked out, right.

419
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,079
Speaker 5: You guys already said you think it's a good idea

420
00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,039
that Christians can't get it? For one, if they do,

421
00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:18,960
they cannot.

422
00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:21,079
Speaker 2: You get what what are we talking about?

423
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 5: The laws under idols. They are not allowed to worship Jesus. Okay,

424
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,480
they consider that I thought you were a trinity. They

425
00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:33,799
will kill you if.

426
00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 3: You don't think you don't think he knows what he is?

427
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 2: No, okay? And are you a Christian?

428
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 5: Of course?

429
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 6: I am sure.

430
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:45,759
Speaker 2: Okay.

431
00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: Do you know that some of the noah Hyde laws

432
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:52,680
are specifically given to non Jewish Christians to follow in

433
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,039
the Book of Acts.

434
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 5: I don't know what that was about. It's just talking

435
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,880
about something. No I have no idea. I heard somebody

436
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,920
mention something yesterday, but I didn't look into anything. I

437
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,039
did hear something there.

438
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Act fifteen.

439
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 1: There are four laws that are given to the gentiles

440
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,599
converting to this Messianic religion. And they don't want to

441
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,400
make them follow all the laws of Moses, so they

442
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,720
send a letter, and that letter has four different laws

443
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,880
that they need to abide by.

444
00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:27,079
Speaker 2: So the four laws are as follows. In fact, I'll

445
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,680
read you the letter. Therefore, I reached.

446
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,799
Speaker 1: The decision that we should not trouble those gentiles who

447
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:34,880
are turned into God, but we should write to them

448
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,640
to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,

449
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,920
and from whatever has been strangled and also from blood,

450
00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:49,000
which is why people like Christians who want to follow

451
00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:51,440
some kind of laws from the Hebrew Bible would point

452
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,839
to these, or even people deconverting from Christianity would point

453
00:20:54,839 --> 00:20:58,079
to these, because these are laws that were very serious

454
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,720
to the Jewish people that you don't have to be

455
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:02,240
part of the Covenant to follow.

456
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 5: Well, I got ten commandments, not seven laws, and I

457
00:21:07,839 --> 00:21:11,039
follow those and they conflict the other seven.

458
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,599
Speaker 1: So the ten commandments are part of the Mosaic law. Steve,

459
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,079
That's what I'm trying to tell you. If you're not

460
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,440
part of that covenant, if you're not part of the

461
00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:23,920
Jewish people, you're not technically required. According to the Jews,

462
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,839
you're not technically required to follow all these laws. What

463
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,799
that means is that if we're going to apply some

464
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,720
of God's laws, we would apply the pre mosaic laws,

465
00:21:33,759 --> 00:21:36,720
the laws that God lays out for humans who are

466
00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:38,440
not Jewish or not Hebrew.

467
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 5: Okay, well, just nobody, they're saying. Other people that know

468
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,039
a lot more about this than I do, they say

469
00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:49,920
online not to take it. I believe them not to

470
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,640
take it because and the Jews say you cannot. They

471
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,799
said it if you take this. If you're a Christian,

472
00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:58,680
you'll get beheaded if you believe in the Trinity.

473
00:21:58,759 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: The Jews have not said that.

474
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,519
Speaker 5: Do you believe it's a saint? What's that?

475
00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 2: Did you do not say that?

476
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:05,759
Speaker 5: Well, they can look this up, and so.

477
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 2: You're you're not telling the truth.

478
00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 5: Oh I'm a liar. Now you call me? Thank you?

479
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,599
Speaker 2: Yes, you can call you a liar.

480
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 5: Yeah about okay, I called up to you before you

481
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,920
on about Daniel chapter eight, and you guys called me

482
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,759
a liar. They're saying that, Yeah.

483
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 2: Maybe you're the common denominator here, Like, no.

484
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 5: I've called you before. He did the same thing every time,

485
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,000
and then you're wrong.

486
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 3: Do you think that we just say you're a liar

487
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,079
because we think that's like a card in our back

488
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,640
pocket they use or do you think do you think

489
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,200
that he has but like, honestly, just answer me, honestly.

490
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,359
Do you think like Justin has this like card in

491
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,039
his back pocket? I called the like charge him with

492
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,279
lying card and he just pulls it out and he

493
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,160
uses it? Or like, do you think there was a

494
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,960
reason why he thinks you might be lying about this?

495
00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:53,920
Just answer me. Do you think that he has a

496
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,920
reason or no reason.

497
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 5: I don't know, he has no faith.

498
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 3: I can maybe you should ask him why he thinks lying.

499
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,839
You can probably explain why he thinks you're being deceptive.

500
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 5: I'm being deceptive, he said.

501
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,559
Speaker 3: I'm saying, if you inquired on why Justin called you

502
00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:10,680
a liar, you could ask what reason you would have?

503
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,640
You guys, did this last time you called me a liar?

504
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,759
Last time you're calling you this time? Well, maybe inquire,

505
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,720
like the reasons why we think you're a liar and

506
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,039
then you'd understand. But just like blanket statement saying like

507
00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:23,480
that's just what you do, or something like he has

508
00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:26,839
no reasons, kind of insulting, like Justin presumably has a

509
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,960
reason on why he thinks you've lied on both occasions.

510
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,359
So you should just ask about that rather than just

511
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,799
going no, no, no, no, I know, listen, like that's

512
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:36,720
what you did. You literally were just like a child.

513
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 5: I'll have to live with that. I guess we're about

514
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,200
to get hit.

515
00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:42,799
Speaker 3: By Yeah, it's you. It's your life, not me. I

516
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:45,200
don't it's you. Being a child doesn't affect me, it

517
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,119
affects you. So you should probably look into that.

518
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,759
Speaker 5: Telling you right now, I ran it's going to put

519
00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:53,920
one together. I've talked about this many years ago with you,

520
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,960
and you hung up on me, and you said that

521
00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:58,240
was crazy back then, and I talked about Dan, We're

522
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,720
going to go to war. I said, go with go

523
00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:03,079
to war with Iran. Six years ago I called you

524
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,400
and and Trump was going to be king and laughed,

525
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,920
and I said, wait a minute, and you guys.

526
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:09,519
Speaker 2: Laugh I would I would laugh at you.

527
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that. I've done it for six years,

528
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:12,960
so I don't know.

529
00:24:13,079 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, Iran doesn't show up in the Book of Daniel.

530
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:19,480
In fact, it doesn't show up anywhere in in like

531
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:23,359
the prophecies. So the Book of Daniel ends with the

532
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,519
final kingdom being the Macedonians, and they're supposed to get

533
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:28,000
wiped out by God's kingdom.

534
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 5: So talking about we're going to get hit, it says it.

535
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,240
So in Daniel chapter eight, verse eight, we're going to hit.

536
00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:36,519
It's therefore the anyway, I'm not going to get into

537
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:37,039
it right now.

538
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: The final kingdom and Daniel eight verse twenty one is

539
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,160
the Kingdom of Greece. The male goat, that's the final

540
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,240
kingdom is the male Goat is the king of Greece,

541
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,039
and the great horn between his eyes is its first king.

542
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,079
This is Alexander.

543
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 3: So is this the Is this the beasts that come

544
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,680
out of like the water and I'm trying to think

545
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,720
of it. That's in Daniel right like the represented He's

546
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,440
like these rulers and societies that are like kind of metaphorical.

547
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,400
Is that is that what you're from?

548
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: Sorry, there's a couple different beast prophecies.

549
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:09,039
Speaker 2: This one they don't come out of the water.

550
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:16,079
Speaker 1: There's a ram that has two horns dignifying two united kingdoms,

551
00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:20,160
that gets devastated by another beast, and the other beast

552
00:25:20,319 --> 00:25:22,000
is represented as the King of Greece.

553
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:22,599
Speaker 4: I see.

554
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,079
Speaker 1: So if the King of Greece is the mister shaggy go,

555
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:28,839
if the King of Greece is the Final Kingdom, then

556
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,400
Iran has nothing to do with this. And in fact

557
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,640
this is about the Greeks. But way back in the

558
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:34,960
second century.

559
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 5: Now, it's not the Final Kingdom. Listen to me, you guys.

560
00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:41,319
At the end of chapter eight right now, we're in

561
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,920
verse seven and and it's epic fury.

562
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, we're not.

563
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, it says right here. And he came to

564
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,799
the ram. They had two horns, which I seen standing

565
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:52,079
before the river person.

566
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: Golf, what are the horns? The two horns represent the

567
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:56,680
Persian gulf.

568
00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 3: I just blows by, no question, persion. Fucking golf is

569
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,559
like the DX like suck it it is. It is

570
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,759
totally on version golf, blow by it everything.

571
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: In chapter eight, Steve is about antio Kis Epiphanies. Anti

572
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,480
Kis Epiphanies is the guy that comes in and tramples

573
00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:21,119
the sanctuary and the city.

574
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 2: That's Anti Kis. That's first mccabees chapter one, verse thirty.

575
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: So this is this is referring to what happened under

576
00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:30,680
Greek rule. It was written in the middle of the

577
00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:34,000
Maccabean War, which is why it keeps referencing stuff during

578
00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:37,240
the Maccabean War. This has nothing to do with anybody later.

579
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,039
The kingdom that is represented by the ram with two

580
00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:42,480
horns is obviously Meto Persia.

581
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 5: Yes, it is Persia, and it's also seven. Yeah, they're

582
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,559
done in nineteen this time of the End.

583
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: Yes, the time of the End was supposed to be

584
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,400
the second century. It says, as for the ram that

585
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,319
you saw with two horns, these are the kings of

586
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,640
Media and Persia and the goat that's the final kingdom

587
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,440
is the king of Greece, and the great horn between

588
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,000
his eyes is the first king. And for the horn

589
00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:11,880
that was broken in place in place of which four

590
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,200
others arose West division division of four.

591
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: Of the Kingdom of Greece.

592
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,559
Speaker 1: After the death of Alexander, four kingdom shall arise from

593
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:22,440
his nation, but not with its power. This is clearly

594
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,839
talking about what happened to the Greeks. They envisioned that

595
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,279
after the breakup of the Grecian Kingdom and after the

596
00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:35,119
defeat of antaikes Epiphanes, that God's kingdom would finally be realized,

597
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,039
and it wasn't.

598
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: It was realized for.

599
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: Maybe seventy five to one hundred years before they got

600
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,039
beat down again by the Roman.

601
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:44,799
Speaker 5: Okay, it says time of the end. I can't make

602
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:46,400
it any clue, And it says twice.

603
00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: No, they thought the time of the end was then,

604
00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:51,039
that's my point.

605
00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:54,039
Speaker 5: So I'm telling you you're gonna get hit. We're gonna

606
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:55,759
get hit real hard, and.

607
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: We're not worried about that.

608
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,799
Speaker 5: We're going to go down on this one, buddy, And

609
00:27:58,920 --> 00:27:59,359
I'm sorry.

610
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,839
Speaker 3: All right, we're now officially just off the rail, so

611
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,000
we'll just move on.

612
00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll just uh, we'll we'll have put him back

613
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,440
to bed and move.

614
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:11,319
Speaker 3: On to the So you're this is a good I

615
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,200
have you so I can ask you because like maybe

616
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,759
a lot of my own ignorance just comes into play here.

617
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,640
But like yeah, because you said the Persians, but it's like,

618
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240
but you have like what the I'll probably mispronounced what

619
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,559
the Ptolemy's cuclidic kings. The Persian guys like all of

620
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,359
like they're just kind of getting their ass kicked like

621
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,920
over and over, like where God's chosen people. It seems

622
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,359
like you have like all of these kind of chances

623
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,200
to kind of think like, yeah, this is it is

624
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,839
that is that far off the mark? Or am I

625
00:28:40,839 --> 00:28:44,160
because I'm kind of just playing a little guessing game there, No.

626
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:44,759
Speaker 2: You got it.

627
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: That's actually the point of apocalyptic writing. In that game,

628
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:49,920
Vandercam did a really good.

629
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,079
Speaker 2: Uh book on this.

630
00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Also in the Old Testament Library series, there's a good

631
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,000
book on apocalyptic visions and how they function inside of Judaism.

632
00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,119
But the idea is, hey, I know things are bad now,

633
00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:04,759
but just around the corner, yeah, it's gonna be it's

634
00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:07,839
gonna be great. And so that's why in Danty seven,

635
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,400
Daniel eight, Daniel nine, Dangle ten. They keep giving these images,

636
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:16,680
but the last entity in all of these visions is

637
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,240
always the Kingdom of Greece.

638
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why the the.

639
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,319
Speaker 1: Final battle that the archangel Michael is waging is going

640
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:28,680
to be against the the Prince of Greece. So like

641
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:31,480
that that's the end, that's and then God's Kingdom is

642
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:32,599
going to be realized.

643
00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:36,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that I've like looked, I've listened to like

644
00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:38,279
Paula Frederickson a little bit on this kind of like

645
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,119
stream that runs through like Judaism's like apocalyptic Judaism around

646
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:46,799
like the Intertestamental period up till you know, like the

647
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,799
first books of the Bible, and it's it's probably the

648
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,559
like I don't know a ton about it, but it

649
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,279
was the most eye open as a not someone who's

650
00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:56,279
never been a Christian. It was the most eye opening

651
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,200
like change of perspective that I've had leading up up

652
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,200
to Jesus in my view, which is the standard view

653
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,960
of his kind of apocalyptic message that gets muted in

654
00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:10,960
Matthew and then like cast it away and like Luke

655
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,960
and John and Gospel of Thomas and all that. So

656
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,200
that stuff. So one thing fascinating. It's so fucking fascinating,

657
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:18,960
it really is.

658
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: It really is fun to ensure.

659
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,039
Speaker 1: And the reason why, you know, you can just know

660
00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:25,279
that's not about Jesus for a lot of reasons other

661
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:28,000
than that it's talking about the second century is the

662
00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:29,759
one who is like the son of man.

663
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,799
Speaker 2: They think that's Jesus. It's clearly Michael the Ark.

664
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:35,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna ask you that because I have reason.

665
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:36,960
I talked to someone that was it. Daniel twelve. What

666
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:37,680
is that?

667
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,599
Speaker 1: The it shows up in Daniel pen, shows up in

668
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,640
Daniel seven, verse fourteen, and it shows up on a

669
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,200
couple occasions. But if you go to Daniel ten, it's clear.

670
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,559
It says, again, one in human form touched me and

671
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:54,920
strengthened me. Well, this happens when the angel touches him.

672
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:59,200
He describes the author of this book describes these archangels

673
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:02,880
as being like the son of Man and then also

674
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,279
like the Son of God.

675
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:06,279
Speaker 2: There's some kind of an in between.

676
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: And so in Daniel four when you hear about the

677
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,119
fiery furnace, that individual is referred to as one like

678
00:31:13,319 --> 00:31:15,960
the son of God and also an angel. So we

679
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,680
know the angel for sure is directly identified with someone

680
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,799
who looks or is like God, and is directly identified

681
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:24,880
as someone who looks or is similar to a human,

682
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,319
which is why and Daniel seven when we hear one

683
00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:28,880
like the Son of Man, like, oh.

684
00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:33,359
Speaker 2: That's just another fucking archangel, but not Jesus. Yeah.

685
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I've heard like Tabor or someone talk

686
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:39,160
about the Michael stuff. But it's like, what is it,

687
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:39,880
James Tabor.

688
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think James Taber attention a little bit,

689
00:31:43,559 --> 00:31:44,839
but John Jay Collins for.

690
00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:47,599
Speaker 3: Sure, Okay, maybe that's it. I remember, like it sucks

691
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:49,680
because you you talk about a lot of stuff that

692
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,240
I'm like, I vaguely remember, like listening stuff I wish

693
00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:54,559
I would have retained information and then been able to

694
00:31:54,599 --> 00:31:57,119
impress you. But yeah, whatever, but.

695
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,839
Speaker 1: I remember the Bible stuff, like you remember the fl

696
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Be stuff.

697
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: I would trade it, and I would trade it tomorrow

698
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,000
some genie comes like you could trade all this wizardry

699
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:09,880
metaphysical stuff for like like stuff that like probably actually

700
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,960
happened in history. It probably didn't happen in history, and

701
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,200
you have a decent guide at figuring out those things

702
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,240
with yeah, making the trade and like get up there

703
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,920
like like an NFL draft, like uh thed J Mike's

704
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,319
have issue to trade.

705
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,839
Speaker 1: Well, you get to flex your brain muscle now because

706
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:29,920
I'm going to bring in a theist. Jason, also from Ohio.

707
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,799
Apparently Ohio is the place to be today, wants to

708
00:32:32,839 --> 00:32:36,599
ask the host is a mind dependent universe more reasonable

709
00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:39,079
than a mind dependent one?

710
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: Well, welcome in, Jason. You're on XP with Justin and

711
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:42,960
J Mike. How you doing.

712
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 6: Good? How are you well?

713
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:47,279
Speaker 2: Thanks for asking?

714
00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: All right, I'm really hungry, so I could have a

715
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,680
full belly if I'm being honest.

716
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:56,359
Speaker 1: Jason, I think it's a fun question that you come

717
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,839
up with, But I'm gonna punt this over to J Mike.

718
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,519
I think this is kind of his area of exocchise.

719
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,079
So if you want, you can kind of rephrase or

720
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:06,599
build out your question a little bit before we we

721
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:08,000
we interact with it.

722
00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:13,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be great because, yeah, like a general reasonable

723
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,359
it's like, I don't know, maybe someone who's limited on

724
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,720
their experience and books and what they have access to them,

725
00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:21,200
it might be reasonable for them, you know, or something.

726
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:24,480
So it's a little broad. Could you could you kind

727
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,200
of go more into that?

728
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I guess I like to think intuitively.

729
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,480
I like to approach things like intuitively too, to see being.

730
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,079
But like you said, I mean, intuition can vary.

731
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.

732
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I was, I was. Actually I hadn't gone

733
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,160
through like a hard time when a couple of two

734
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,160
years going me like two years ago three But like

735
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,400
questioning you know why, I believe what I believe and

736
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:05,920
I believe in a god, you know. Yeah, and this

737
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:11,599
this approach the whole mind independence and like the nature

738
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:17,159
of like existence. It's not like directly related to Christianity

739
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:17,840
at all.

740
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:27,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like general kind of fundamental mind kind of idea.

741
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,159
Speaker 4: Yeah.

742
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I've always met. Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.

743
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,599
But I want to I guess I want to ask

744
00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:37,760
you because I think I know what you mean, but

745
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,880
maybe we should unpack it for anyone that doesn't hear

746
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,400
the kind of stance independent mind independent talking. I mean,

747
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,400
it's pretty I guess easy to figure out. But so

748
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,480
your view, you think that it is more reasonable to

749
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:55,559
think that the universe is mind dependent, like it depends

750
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,480
on a mind in the sense that like it's within

751
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:01,519
the mind, or it just depends on and like some

752
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,840
antecedent event like God fundamental mind creating the universe, because

753
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:09,559
you feel like you could interpret that two different ways.

754
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess that's where I take it.

755
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,480
I haven't been down like the roads of.

756
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,159
Speaker 3: Like sorry for clarity, which one that that God's responsible

757
00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:22,159
to mind is responsible, or that it's within the mind

758
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:22,960
of God.

759
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,599
Speaker 4: Like there's like there's because you have like maybe pan

760
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:32,360
psychism or yeah, like maybe panpyism, which I hardly know

761
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,679
anything about those concepts, or Buddhism or something, but it.

762
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:38,559
Speaker 3: Sounds like That's why I'm asking because it sounds like

763
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:42,840
you might be describing like idealism. Sure, yeah, you can

764
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,719
call it that, Okay, Yeah, I just want it for

765
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:46,679
clarity's sake.

766
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 7: M.

767
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:50,119
Speaker 5: Ideal.

768
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: But how many people know of idealism is almost people

769
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,000
think it has to do with being an ideal Yeah.

770
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, that's fine. I just it just yeah,

771
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,639
it just helps me kind of understand whether or not

772
00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:03,719
you're saying thing God is required for like the universe

773
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,679
to exist, or like it exists within the mind of God.

774
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,320
But yeah, that's fine. I guess, like I don't know,

775
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,440
I'm weirded out by like I can give you initial thoughts.

776
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,280
I don't think this is like the greatest thing in

777
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,760
the world. But I find like the separation of things

778
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,079
being mind independent, like they're being a meaningful distinction between

779
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,360
mind dependence and mind independence is like what helps me

780
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,800
in my Like if I'm like, oh, my friend lied

781
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,079
to me, or someone might have stolen something from me,

782
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:34,920
I'm trying to figure something out I might have in

783
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,679
my head like yeah, they lied to me, But there's

784
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,639
like this further investigation that I need to do to

785
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:43,360
see if, like the imagination I have kind of maps

786
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,880
onto the reality around me. And I'm wondering, like what, Like,

787
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,039
I don't know. That distinction is really weird to me

788
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:52,079
when you just say, like we're all in the mind

789
00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:55,239
of God, Like I don't even know what establishes like

790
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,320
real versus just imaginary at that point. So I'm kind

791
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,960
of weirded out by the thought just initially what you say,

792
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,119
the universe of wits, and I don't know where that means.

793
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I said that,

794
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:16,480
but I approach it. I guess two ways. One has

795
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:20,920
to do with the universe as we know it, like

796
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:32,239
material and science and study studying the universe studying matter

797
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,039
of space time, and the other has to do with

798
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:43,719
consciousness in people. Okay, and so those are two roumins.

799
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,119
We could attack either one.

800
00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:47,119
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm still me.

801
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: I'm still I'm still not really understand like because when

802
00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:53,760
I said, just a second ago, when you say it's

803
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,199
in the mind of God, he said, you didn't say that,

804
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,440
but I was asking for clarity if that was your position.

805
00:37:58,800 --> 00:37:59,519
Speaker 4: Oh sure that is.

806
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:01,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean you might have said those words,

807
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:03,960
but you clarify that that is your position. Okay, But

808
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,480
why think that. I'm trying to understand what what makes

809
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:07,039
you look at the way?

810
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 4: I don't know if idealism is that what idealism is

811
00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:11,880
that we are in the mind of God.

812
00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:16,079
Speaker 3: Well, that's like a theistic form, like it's a theistic

813
00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:18,679
form of idealism.

814
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 4: Of vague too, it's kind of like mind.

815
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,119
Speaker 3: I mean, let's not worry, let's not get hung up

816
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:25,400
on the philosoph you know, speak or anything like that.

817
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:27,320
That's my bad. But I just want I would just

818
00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:30,719
very simply, why why would you think Because like I

819
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,599
feel like you said you were a Christian, so there's

820
00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:36,519
some background stuff going on there on what what you believe.

821
00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:38,920
But why would you think it's more reasonable to think

822
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:42,760
that there's a the universe or us exists within the

823
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,920
mind of God as opposed to it being like mind

824
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,880
independent or.

825
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 4: As a product of the mind of God. Let's say

826
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,000
either one.

827
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: If that was what I asked, that's what I asked.

828
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,960
That the app from the outset for the clarity between

829
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,800
those two. They're two different like, those are two different

830
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,440
dialogue trees for me to go off of.

831
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 4: Right, Well, I guess, okay, in the mind of God,

832
00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:07,079
I mean as a product I think like I think,

833
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:09,599
I mean, I don't know.

834
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:10,079
Speaker 5: I don't know.

835
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:11,599
Speaker 4: I guess you could say in the mind of God.

836
00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:13,559
Let's just let's go with that and see how far

837
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:14,440
I guess it takes us.

838
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I just want to know what makes like why?

839
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 6: Why?

840
00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: How did you come to that position? Let's just start

841
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:21,960
real simple.

842
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 4: Well, so I struggled with why, with the question of

843
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:38,760
why humans generally, by default, seem to believe in some

844
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,079
kind of creator, at least in times past, maybe not today,

845
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,880
maybe not these days is up for debate, and there's

846
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,360
different arguments right as to why people you know, you

847
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,039
go ask people on the street, are.

848
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 3: You I'm genuinely not worried about other people at the moment.

849
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,679
I'm only worried about you. So I just want to

850
00:39:57,679 --> 00:39:58,199
know why you b.

851
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, well it has to do with like myself and others,

852
00:40:03,119 --> 00:40:06,719
you know, and why we believe, why we believe almost intuitively.

853
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:08,400
So that's what I was going to get into, which

854
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:16,039
is like the material universe, is how do we start

855
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:19,719
with this consciousness and material and the question as well

856
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:26,239
as physical two physical things I think and have experience.

857
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 3: Yes, they do.

858
00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 4: It's a question. Okay, can you name at least two things.

859
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 3: That do my brain Justin's brain.

860
00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: That's a that's a brain. Can you name anything else

861
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,360
but a brain?

862
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,079
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know about jellyfish, but they have I

863
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:48,800
don't know if they have conscious or sentience, but they

864
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,400
have like neural sacs.

865
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 4: Or something like that.

866
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: I don't remember exactly what it is, but I don't know. Look,

867
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,840
there's things that have quality experience. I don't need to

868
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,760
have like a one, two, five, seven or eight. I

869
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,360
mean there's physical things and then have qualitative.

870
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 4: Experiences with a central nervous system.

871
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:07,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we can go with that. That's fine.

872
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,679
Speaker 4: So you have one thing in the entire universe that

873
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,039
has your planning is physical, it has.

874
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:19,519
Speaker 3: I don't know what the veracity of whether or not

875
00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:22,440
it's true matters. And like it's if it's singular, there's

876
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,559
a plurality of things. It seems epistemically irrelevant.

877
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 4: Right well, I just think that you.

878
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,159
Speaker 3: Think that if there's one, if you think there's only

879
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,920
only the central nervous system that can experience consciousness, that

880
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,920
that somehow like should make a physicalist like shaking their boots,

881
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,199
because they would just laugh. They would just go, I

882
00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:47,840
don't care. That's that they would just go, that's a

883
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,880
that's an insane like qualification that you have for truth.

884
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:56,280
Right well, there was like if there was like two

885
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,320
things like a Schmenchelsh nervous system, then we'd be.

886
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 4: Talking now, right, so we know, like we know like

887
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:09,559
matter or physical things are subject to gravity and and

888
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:12,559
what what material things can you hold? You know, I

889
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:19,199
can list like thousands, but.

890
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 3: I'm failing to see where we're going with this. I'm

891
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,760
not trying to be rude, but I've yet to I've

892
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,440
yet to gather any insight on why you believe that

893
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:32,679
the universe's mind dependent on God. I have no insight

894
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,559
on I genuinely don't have a rea. I couldn't even

895
00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:37,679
if I tried my hardest to be to apply principle

896
00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:39,639
of charity figure out what the reason might be. I've

897
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:41,199
just heard like some people and.

898
00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:42,599
Speaker 4: Well that's one that's one reason.

899
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: Well stuff only has one thing that has consciousness, one.

900
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,119
Speaker 4: Reason to add to like to like lean in that way,

901
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,519
if you can only name one thing in the entire

902
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,559
universe that does a good reason to question it.

903
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: I think I don't think so like you say because

904
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:04,000
there's you say that because there's a specific No, because.

905
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 4: Look, there's a central nervous system has a property of

906
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,519
matter that no other Just look the material system has.

907
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: You could make the same argument with like computers and

908
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:18,599
display screens. Look, there's only like a couple of these

909
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:20,760
things that display images or like. You could do this

910
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,840
with anything and nobody. I don't see how it's It

911
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,679
seems like a total waste of time to focus on

912
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,199
the number of things in the universe that could amount

913
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,039
to consciousness. You just look, if I have a view. Look,

914
00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:34,000
let me just tell you I have a view. You

915
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:36,880
need some type of physical substrate just to have consciousness.

916
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,880
That substrate happens to be a central nervous system and

917
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,079
axons and neurons and these kind of things, right, this

918
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:44,719
collective kind of package of things. Uh, and you get

919
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,239
you get consciousness with that. What's the problem Because you

920
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,920
can't come back and say, oh, it's only one thing.

921
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,119
I'm gonna go yeah, I just said that to you, right,

922
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:58,679
I don't see a problem. Yeah, Okay, you insist there's

923
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:00,079
a problem, and I'm wondering why.

924
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 4: I'm not saying it's like a serious problem. What you're saying.

925
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,199
It's a good thing that you know, it's a reasonable.

926
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: That's what I'm trying to say. That's what I'm trying

927
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,320
to tell you. It is not no, no, listen, it's not reason.

928
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,119
It's not reasonable. Look, it's not reasonable to take the

929
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:19,199
number of this one thing and then go h that

930
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,079
gives me, Like, I understand, I genuinely do understand how

931
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:25,719
somebody can think that they're like, oh, man, the only

932
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,119
things that's cool, like smoking a bong at a party,

933
00:44:29,159 --> 00:44:31,239
talking with your friends. But if you really like sit

934
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,159
down and think about it, and you go, okay, how

935
00:44:34,199 --> 00:44:37,920
do I like, how does this get ruled out epistemically

936
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,239
like things that I know, how do I rule this

937
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,760
out just basically base based on only the central nervous

938
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,000
system is like this only thing that can produce consciousness.

939
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,920
If you sat there, you would you would have to

940
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,599
like lie to yourself to go. That just qualifies it

941
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:55,000
one thing it's not. It's not reasonable in any sense

942
00:44:55,039 --> 00:44:58,199
to think that that does anything. It shouldn't do anything

943
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,000
for you. It doesn't raise the probability or lower the probability.

944
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,599
It does nothing. It could be a million things. I

945
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:05,800
mean it could. It could be doctor evil, right and

946
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,320
just be like one billion different things. Like it wouldn't

947
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,880
make it more true because there's a one billion things, right,

948
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,360
So I think we need to get back on track.

949
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,719
So like one thing we've established is the number of

950
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,679
like in my view, if I'm a physicalist, that doesn't

951
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,760
really matter to me. If there's like one thing that

952
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,199
doesn't make me shake in my boots at all, if

953
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:27,719
I'm a physicalist at all. So we have one reason.

954
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 4: That you when people decide what's like reasonable to believe,

955
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,559
they go with like what's as like has least amount

956
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:41,039
of like burdles to overcome with explaining things you know.

957
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 3: You want to you want to trade off between the

958
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,000
things that you like postulate versus their ex explanatory power. Right,

959
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:52,280
you don't want to like just add a whole bunch

960
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:53,880
of things there. I agree with you. If I just

961
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,800
started to explain consciousness and added a whole bunch of

962
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,440
things into my hypothesis, it wouldn't do me favors if

963
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,440
I don't need those things. But that's what I think

964
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:04,079
is actually favorable about the position I have. I don't

965
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:10,440
need this like mind of God that within it has

966
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,800
the universe. I just have the universe, right, I can

967
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,360
just shave off the mind dependent God part of it,

968
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,800
and I can explain consciousness just as well as you do.

969
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,039
And so like for me, it's it seems like it's

970
00:46:23,159 --> 00:46:24,719
the opposite of kind of what you're saying there is

971
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,840
that I favor because I don't have an extra postulate

972
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,800
like you believe in the universe, so do I, but

973
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,199
you believe in God. And it seems like it's up

974
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,039
to you to show me why I need to have

975
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:37,480
that extra postulate, right, like like what the position on

976
00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:40,559
your side should be. No, mister j Mike, you actually

977
00:46:40,599 --> 00:46:44,719
can't explain consciousness, not because of the one central nervous thing,

978
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,239
but because you don't get out of quod explanation without

979
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,079
it being a mind dependent product of God. And that's

980
00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:54,400
what I've been trying to get an argument from you for, right,

981
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,159
because everything else is there to do anything for me?

982
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 4: Sure, So can we say, let's talk about consciousness? Can

983
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,199
we say consciousness?

984
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 6: No?

985
00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 3: I don't want I want to talk about I want

986
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:09,920
I want you to tell me unless this has to

987
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,119
do with it. I want you to give me a

988
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:14,360
reason why I should add God. Look, I have the universe,

989
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:17,400
and I think the universe is not mine dependent, right,

990
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:21,920
I think it's independent of minds. It exists. Now you think.

991
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 4: That they're relations, you think that you.

992
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 3: Think that there's a sorry, you think that there's a

993
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,280
God and within that the universe, or you've played with

994
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,719
the other idea that there's this product of the universe

995
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,480
that's an extra entity. Right, Me and you agree there

996
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,719
are electrons, there are chairs, there's things in the universe.

997
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,360
We all agree there's there's sons, right, m Okay, you

998
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,639
know what. I don't believe in God, right, so you

999
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,639
can show me that. Look, Mike, you don't get an

1000
00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:01,920
adequate explanation unless do this postulate. But until you do that,

1001
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,400
I'm just going to like leave the call going, I

1002
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,599
don't need this additional postulate in my theory. My theory

1003
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,480
is working and operating perfectly fine without this fundamental mind.

1004
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,800
So it seems like if you wanted to convince me,

1005
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,679
I'm not saying you have this, you know, like, oh

1006
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,639
you you have to go around and convince me right now.

1007
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,159
But if you had the goal of helping me see

1008
00:48:23,199 --> 00:48:25,599
your side or convincing me, what you should do is

1009
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:29,039
show your explanation without that thing is inadequate. And here's

1010
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:31,320
why you need God. But you keep talking about like

1011
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,320
other people and stuff like that, and I'm not sure.

1012
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,360
Yeah right, I'll try not to cut you off too. Actually,

1013
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:40,400
producers give him a minute on the clock if you

1014
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:40,960
have that up.

1015
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 4: So you have the university you have on you know, space,

1016
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:51,639
time matter, and you think about there was a plots

1017
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,920
for a long time ago who wrote this book and

1018
00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:56,639
it was on this subject. He took like an apple

1019
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,599
at say, and he reduced it down to its qualities

1020
00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:05,480
and you know the qualities of the apple until he

1021
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:11,960
realized that they're so he went so just what he

1022
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,440
did was he asked about the color of the apple.

1023
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,239
Apple was red. Then he asked well, he's red an

1024
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:26,280
intrinsic property of the apple, And you would say, well, no,

1025
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,280
it's in the eye of the viewer.

1026
00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 3: So that has to do with like reflective surface properties

1027
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,840
and photons and like the cones in your eyes.

1028
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:47,159
Speaker 4: Right, But the experience of red is not without the eye, right,

1029
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,320
like the seeing of bread.

1030
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 3: Well for us, yes, but there are different intermediate stages

1031
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,400
of like eye development that you can see in different species,

1032
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:58,320
right now.

1033
00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:02,599
Speaker 4: So but for us, yes, yeah, but that that redness

1034
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,400
is not like intrines. But that redness we ascribed to

1035
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,239
like an apple, is not part of the apple.

1036
00:50:09,639 --> 00:50:12,679
Speaker 3: No, it's a collection of the photo It's the collection

1037
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,480
of the reflective surface properties. Right, It's a collect in

1038
00:50:17,559 --> 00:50:23,400
conjunction with the photons hitting that surface and our bouncy

1039
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,960
back to our eyes. Right, there's a big Yeah. It's

1040
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,199
not like none of that's mind dependent or dependent solely

1041
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:30,599
on me.

1042
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 4: The experience, the experience of the redness.

1043
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was no If there were no photons and

1044
00:50:39,599 --> 00:50:43,960
reflected then there would be a redness for me to observe.

1045
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, if no one was looking at the apple,

1046
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,440
the apple wouldn't have a color.

1047
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,639
Speaker 3: Right, Sure, I I don't really know where we're going,

1048
00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:57,320
Like I if you're going into Mary's room or something

1049
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,480
like that. We can talk about that, But that seems

1050
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:02,360
like we're shift thing because I don't know about physical

1051
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,079
I don't know that this is about physicalism or idealism.

1052
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:06,880
This is just like whether or not you can show

1053
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,360
me that there's a mind independent there's a universe.

1054
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 4: The universe is built on like things to be experienced

1055
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:17,480
by a mind.

1056
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 3: That's okay, But what's incompatible with having evolutionary and cosmological

1057
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,719
processes where you have a product of being able to

1058
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:32,320
observe things I don't understand, like theological aspect? Here for it? Right?

1059
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:32,599
Speaker 5: You?

1060
00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:36,679
Speaker 3: You you grow into your environments, right, I mean look

1061
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,320
you you look at it like this one thing like

1062
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,480
we just had an eye, right, we had like a

1063
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:45,880
like a little sell, like a little fuck. I'm forgetting.

1064
00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:48,280
Someone can help maybe justin can help me. The you

1065
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,039
have like a little sell, like a little hole, like

1066
00:51:50,039 --> 00:51:52,840
a little pin hole, right you? Like you can see

1067
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,800
this and was it nautilus? I can't pin hole? Yeah,

1068
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,599
I can't. You have like a little pinhole? You have

1069
00:51:57,639 --> 00:51:59,760
developments that the eye develops like a glob.

1070
00:51:59,800 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 2: You.

1071
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going like way off my memory here, So

1072
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:04,880
people that know this stuff are probably cringing really hard.

1073
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:08,000
Point being is there's an immediate stages between like I development.

1074
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,639
Looking at like what we have now is this product

1075
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,400
of like, oh this was like for me or something.

1076
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,760
It seems kind of equivalent to like the puddle analogy

1077
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,960
or something like. You're not really focusing on like so

1078
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:20,599
many other aspects of the development.

1079
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 4: So you're pointing to the evolutionary like processes that happened

1080
00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:33,480
before human minds emerged. Okay, doing that, you're you're assuming

1081
00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:38,239
the existence of a universe. That's not.

1082
00:52:40,199 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: What am I assuming.

1083
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,599
Speaker 4: You're looking at these the existence of a universe that

1084
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:53,599
is with completely without any mind whatsoever. I'm saying that

1085
00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:54,719
mind is God.

1086
00:52:55,119 --> 00:52:58,039
Speaker 3: I understand that's your position. I've I've come to a

1087
00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:01,679
position that such a being doesn't exist because look when

1088
00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:03,360
I do, when I look at the views and I

1089
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,119
compare those views, I can explain the same data without

1090
00:53:07,159 --> 00:53:10,239
extra postulates. I'm going to do that every time with anything,

1091
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,480
anything in my life. If I don't need that extra

1092
00:53:13,079 --> 00:53:16,239
uh thing in my hypothesis, I'm going to shave it off.

1093
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,480
It's it's not needed. It's an idle wheel in your

1094
00:53:18,519 --> 00:53:21,599
explanatory housing. Why would I use it? Right, It's like

1095
00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:23,280
having a chair you don't use. What the fuck would

1096
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,280
you have it?

1097
00:53:26,119 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 4: It's almost like you're removing a postulate that is like necessary.

1098
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:31,159
Speaker 6: I am.

1099
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 3: I'm in fact not doing that because I've I've explained

1100
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,559
to you that it's that if you could change my

1101
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:40,480
position by showing me why that postulates needed, I didn't say.

1102
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 4: It's like saying I don't want to believe in gravity

1103
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,199
because and I'm just going to go ahead and explain.

1104
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 3: Brother, do this with God. What the fuck are you

1105
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,400
talking about? Don't compare it to something that I demonstrate

1106
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,679
in front of you. Do this with God. Do that.

1107
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,679
If you're talking about comparing it to gravity, they're not

1108
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,880
the same thing. It's not analogous at all. If you

1109
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,960
want an analogy, you need a common property between the

1110
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,320
two things you're comparing. There's no common property there. I

1111
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:07,519
can demonstrate that thing you.

1112
00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 4: Think I'm saying that. I'm saying that the mind, that

1113
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,519
the fundamental mind, we'll call it God, should never have

1114
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:14,800
been removed in the first place.

1115
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:22,639
Speaker 3: Okay, first, okay, you you can you can show me,

1116
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,920
you can bring me to God. You can just show me,

1117
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,400
but you're evading that. You're focused on like me, ruling

1118
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,039
it out. No, I talk with a lot of people

1119
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:32,519
about this. I've had a lot of conversations weighing out

1120
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:35,360
the different different worldviews. It's a comparative method that I

1121
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,360
opt to use. I do this all the time. If

1122
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,679
you go back in the archive of the show, you won't,

1123
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,840
you'll you'll go might shut the fuck up about this

1124
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,880
comparative methodology that you use. You'll you will literally say

1125
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,320
that I say it too much. Right, So I've gone

1126
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,000
through this process. In fact, I was a non naturalist.

1127
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,119
I was a duelist. I believed that there was a

1128
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,119
non physical component of the mind. Guess why I don't

1129
00:54:57,159 --> 00:54:59,639
believe that anymore Because I compared it with this view

1130
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:02,599
and I realized that this has less postulates than I

1131
00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:04,840
explained the data just as well. So I don't need

1132
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,039
to believe in something that I have no reason to believe. Right,

1133
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:09,760
there's no reason for me to believe it. I shave

1134
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,400
it off. So you don't know my history on why

1135
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,239
I believe the things I believe. So let's just leave

1136
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,559
that off the table, and let's put what should be

1137
00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:18,599
on the table which is you convincing me, and then

1138
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:20,000
I want to get this back to Justin because I

1139
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:23,039
feel like I'm going over time that Justin should be

1140
00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:24,840
chiming in. I know we kind of split up the

1141
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,159
last two calls, but I'm not getting any reasons out

1142
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:30,159
of you. You sound like a really cool guy, but

1143
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,440
you're not giving me a single reason. The last thing

1144
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,119
you told me was I don't think you should rule

1145
00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:34,400
it out.

1146
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 4: Okay, show me well, I think, okay, I don't think

1147
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:45,280
you should rule it out because because, yeah, because there's

1148
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:53,760
these relationships that make up the entire universe and what

1149
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,880
you claim, yeah, like space, space is relationships.

1150
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:58,039
Speaker 5: Right.

1151
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 4: If I say this house is in Ohio, right, that

1152
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:08,880
means it's in a location and not in Georgia. It's

1153
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,079
in Ohio. Were assumer relationship.

1154
00:56:12,679 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 3: I can confirm that I'm in Georgia.

1155
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 2: I can confirm that, right.

1156
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,559
Speaker 4: So there's a relationship between like the distance between you

1157
00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:26,360
and I. And that's not the only thing that has relationships.

1158
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,239
There's like size. So if I like a simple one

1159
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,599
that you like a tree, a tree, right, a tree,

1160
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,079
you say, wow, that's a big tree, right, that that

1161
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:41,199
only means it's big in relation to smaller trees, right,

1162
00:56:41,519 --> 00:56:44,280
or maybe it's big in relation to your body. It's

1163
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,199
much taller than you.

1164
00:56:46,159 --> 00:56:51,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look, I'm saying like, this.

1165
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:54,599
Speaker 4: Is a big tree in an absolute sense. There's no

1166
00:56:54,639 --> 00:56:57,639
such thing as bigness, you know, unless you related it

1167
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:01,320
to something smaller. But you fan that type. I agree

1168
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:02,599
with this type of stuff.

1169
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,559
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, glad, I use I literally use this argument.

1170
00:57:06,679 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 3: I use this argument, Sorr. I use this same talking

1171
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:11,360
point idea when I talk to people about morality and

1172
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,599
not understanding what it means for something to be minded,

1173
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,119
like a mind independent obligation. It just sounds like saying

1174
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:20,639
bigger without anything like that's built into it, like relation,

1175
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,599
comparative analysis between something else. I get that. But okay,

1176
00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:27,760
so we're both on board. You can compare things and go,

1177
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,320
that's bigger. It makes no sense to say Mike is taller,

1178
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,079
but there's no taller than we all we agree there, right,

1179
00:57:33,079 --> 00:57:34,920
we have there needs to be a taller than or

1180
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,840
a bigger than. We get that. How does how is

1181
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,719
that now get me to God? From there? Because I'm

1182
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:41,800
not seeing where we're going.

1183
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 4: So you find that with everything, right, you find that

1184
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:48,559
with distance? You might say wow, that's that's really far

1185
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,519
far from what far from you, right, or it's really

1186
00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:56,760
close close to what close to you, or you can

1187
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,719
even apply it to the texture of matter and material.

1188
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,000
You can say, wow, this apple is really hard.

1189
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 3: Things we can do one hundred Yeah, these are things

1190
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,679
we can do. What now we got to drive. We're

1191
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:10,800
running a show. We need we need like more meat

1192
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,480
on it. Like you're like, it's kind of like me

1193
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,559
being like there's a water bottle and there's a microphone.

1194
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:17,079
It's like those are things. They're compatible in both of

1195
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:17,639
our views.

1196
00:58:17,719 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, so I just spent that is for

1197
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,920
twenty six minutes. I just haven't seen the connection with

1198
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,400
God yet. If you could clarify where that connection of

1199
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:26,159
the be grat.

1200
00:58:27,679 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 4: So the connection is right there is that all these relationships,

1201
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:43,440
relationships need a framework to be registered inside of to

1202
00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:46,079
be and to be realized in size.

1203
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:48,679
Speaker 3: Getting suspiciously question begging sounding, but we'll go ahead.

1204
00:58:49,639 --> 00:58:51,039
Speaker 2: I don't know what you're trying to say.

1205
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: We agree, right, in order to make relational claims, you

1206
00:58:54,519 --> 00:58:56,880
need more than one object because you need to compare

1207
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:57,559
it to something else.

1208
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,079
Speaker 2: I don't see where God comes in.

1209
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 4: So you need the experience er to have that relation,

1210
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:10,679
to observe that relationship to registers.

1211
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: Me and you and j Mike. Yeah, what about God?

1212
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 4: Well, the universe, we can all agree, exists independently from us.

1213
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you?

1214
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:21,679
Speaker 6: How do you?

1215
00:59:21,719 --> 00:59:23,559
Speaker 2: How do you make that we're part of the universe.

1216
00:59:23,599 --> 00:59:25,400
I don't know what you mean by independent.

1217
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:28,719
Speaker 4: Well, so, well, so this relationship between a big tree

1218
00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:30,960
and a small tree, if we're looking at it and

1219
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,440
we're claiming that we can die the next day, and

1220
00:59:35,519 --> 00:59:39,639
that relationship we will as you know, any reasonable person

1221
00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:42,239
would say that relationship, I believe it's still there for

1222
00:59:42,239 --> 00:59:44,280
a next person to see and for the next person

1223
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:50,719
to see. And why because the very nature of what

1224
00:59:51,039 --> 00:59:54,239
is you believe it exists. You believe those trees that

1225
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:55,199
you're looking at exists.

1226
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: The relationship doesn't exist.

1227
01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 4: It doesn't exist.

1228
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: It does not exist. It's an observation, it's not a relationship.

1229
01:00:06,039 --> 01:00:09,880
Relationships are abstract thoughts. They're just us saying, hey, this

1230
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,880
thing is pletely different from that thing.

1231
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 2: But that relationship doesn't have ontology. It's not a thing.

1232
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:18,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, you be like, there's the relationship.

1233
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,559
Speaker 4: There really is. There really is a tree. It's like

1234
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:23,239
the other one.

1235
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: Form of tag except rather than using like the laws

1236
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:30,119
of logic or some other metaphysical universal, you're trying to

1237
01:00:30,199 --> 01:00:32,920
use relationship as a metaphysical universal.

1238
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: And this is just silly.

1239
01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: It sounds like you you want to make this inference

1240
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:42,639
from we're observers, we observe things that those things like

1241
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,920
require some observer, which I don't even agree with that,

1242
01:00:46,039 --> 01:00:47,800
like there could just be no mind you don't think,

1243
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:49,800
you don't think, hold on, hold on, hold on real quick,

1244
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:51,239
but you seem like you want it seems like you

1245
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,480
want to make an inference further that therefore, like the

1246
01:00:55,639 --> 01:00:59,920
universe needs an observer, which would just if we like

1247
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,880
made this into a formal argument, it just it would

1248
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,400
just be formally invalid, Like that does not follow at all.

1249
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,679
But if I try to apply like a principle of

1250
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,159
charity to you and what you're saying, I mean, all

1251
01:01:11,199 --> 01:01:13,719
I can really do is inquire why you think we

1252
01:01:13,719 --> 01:01:16,199
should make such an inference, Like what gives you, like

1253
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,679
why like motivate that right? It just I don't really

1254
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:22,440
hear much motivation. It's just kind of like I see

1255
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,400
this thing in the world, we observe things, and it

1256
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,119
seems like I can extrapolate that up to the top level.

1257
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:29,320
I don't see any reason why you would do that.

1258
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,119
It also just seems like all you did to me

1259
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,000
from my advantage point, the way that I see it

1260
01:01:35,079 --> 01:01:40,679
is you now introduced a totally unnecessary idle wheel in

1261
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,400
your explanatory housing. Right, there's no I don't see how

1262
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,239
it's doing any heavy lifting at all. And so for me,

1263
01:01:47,519 --> 01:01:49,719
I'm working at that and I'm going it seems like

1264
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,199
it was a good thing for me to shave that

1265
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,480
thing off, because I'm still not hearing any reason to

1266
01:01:55,519 --> 01:01:58,840
bring it back into my theory.

1267
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:04,199
Speaker 4: So you believe, so do you believe there are no objects?

1268
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,679
If you believe there are no relationships, there are no objects.

1269
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:15,719
Speaker 1: No relationships are observations about objects, but they're abstract thoughts.

1270
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,599
Speaker 2: They're not things that exist. If humans didn't exist, these

1271
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:19,880
relationships wouldn't.

1272
01:02:19,599 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 4: Exist between objects.

1273
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,199
Speaker 1: Relationships wouldn't exist because they're propositions that come from minds.

1274
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, unless you want to be like a Platonist or something,

1275
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,800
But then I could argue it's like so many more

1276
01:02:35,599 --> 01:02:38,079
additional that you don't need.

1277
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 4: The relationship might not be being made in time by somebody,

1278
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:50,360
but those objects are existing in space and time, whether

1279
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:51,239
you're there or not.

1280
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:57,599
Speaker 1: I'm sure they do, but relationships don't. Relationships are propositions.

1281
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 2: Made by human brains.

1282
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,599
Speaker 1: They're not things that have like platonic realism or anything.

1283
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,400
It is a listen, uh, Jason, this is really an

1284
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,519
interesting conversation. But it's been a half hour an hour

1285
01:03:09,639 --> 01:03:12,639
going in circles, and I haven't heard a good motivation

1286
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,440
to overturn Okham's raiser for jmex position. So I've left

1287
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,199
to conclude that our explanation of the universe without God

1288
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:22,960
is just simpler and cleaner, and I don't have a

1289
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,519
reason to adopt either a God or universal relations So

1290
01:03:28,199 --> 01:03:30,119
thanks for calling in, though, I mean you're you sound

1291
01:03:30,159 --> 01:03:33,199
like a nice young fella. Were just in being cordial,

1292
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,280
But we do have some other people waiting to get in,

1293
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,559
and we don't have on These Sunday shows aren't all

1294
01:03:38,559 --> 01:03:40,599
that long, so we do have to cycle through guests.

1295
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:43,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that last that last point is super important.

1296
01:03:44,119 --> 01:03:46,079
I have a go on. Last point is super important

1297
01:03:46,079 --> 01:03:48,679
just because with the what I had for the from

1298
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:51,079
the call screener, which is what he you know, said

1299
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:53,360
that the CAUs screen was, is it more reasonable to

1300
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,719
believe in a mind independent versus mind dependent universe, and

1301
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,880
so I tried to offer up a view, you know,

1302
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,719
and let's see kind of what's more reasonable to believe.

1303
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,360
And I'll leave that to the audience what they would.

1304
01:04:06,119 --> 01:04:09,519
Speaker 1: Think, right Yeah, yeah, Well, friends, we've got more people

1305
01:04:09,519 --> 01:04:12,079
waiting to get in before we grab We're gonna get

1306
01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:15,519
pushback ministries from the TikTok q before we do that.

1307
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:17,719
We just got a couple more announcements before it gets

1308
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,840
the show gets too late, or rather too long in

1309
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,760
the tooth. So let's go to a couple announcements and

1310
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,280
then we'll bring in our next guest. We want to

1311
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:30,039
bring in Jamie, our friend blind Laimey to talk about

1312
01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:31,119
a May event.

1313
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 2: Do we have them on tap?

1314
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 8: Jamie's the blind Boy, and I've got some interesting news

1315
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,800
for you. On Saturday, May sixteenth, at six pm, we'll

1316
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,960
be hosting our twenty four hour We Are Here live

1317
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,760
stream and fundraiser to highlight secular voices around the world.

1318
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,840
We've invited dozens of your favorite content creators like genetically

1319
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:58,159
Modified Skeptic, the Antibot, Justin DZ and more to let

1320
01:04:58,159 --> 01:05:00,480
the world know that we are here and we're not

1321
01:05:00,559 --> 01:05:03,119
going anywhere. If you're in Austin, come join us at

1322
01:05:03,119 --> 01:05:06,760
Free Thought Library at fifteen oh seven West Cain and Length.

1323
01:05:07,119 --> 01:05:09,920
Well we'll be kicking things off in style. And if

1324
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,440
you're online, do join us on the Atheist Experience channel

1325
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,920
to check out the stream and joining the fun. So

1326
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:18,039
join us from wherever you are in the world, and

1327
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:22,159
together we can dedicate ourselves to secular humanist values wherever

1328
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:22,840
we are.

1329
01:05:26,519 --> 01:05:28,639
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jamie, and also we want to send a

1330
01:05:28,679 --> 01:05:31,239
thank you for putting the show together to our cast

1331
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,880
and crew. Every week we have people putting the show

1332
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:38,719
together operators, audio operators, note takers, call screamers, chat moderators,

1333
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,400
and a video personnel that make this show possible. Jamike

1334
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,360
and I have the fun task of just getting up

1335
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,039
here and getting to talk, which is our favorite thing,

1336
01:05:47,079 --> 01:05:48,079
but a lot of people help.

1337
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: Them make this show go well.

1338
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: And if you want to volunteer or lend some expertise

1339
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,559
to the ACA, or even perhaps be a host, you

1340
01:05:57,599 --> 01:06:02,039
can contact the ACA and let's see contact the ACA

1341
01:06:02,159 --> 01:06:07,000
at volunteer at atheistdashcommunity.

1342
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,199
Speaker 2: Dot org to get involved. I gotta say it again

1343
01:06:08,239 --> 01:06:09,039
because it's a long one.

1344
01:06:09,119 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: Volunteer at atheistdashcommunity dot org. Always looking for people that

1345
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:17,119
can help out. If you have the time and a

1346
01:06:17,199 --> 01:06:20,079
useful skill for the ACA, we'd love to talk about

1347
01:06:20,079 --> 01:06:22,119
how we can get you plugged.

1348
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:23,079
Speaker 2: Into the events.

1349
01:06:23,719 --> 01:06:25,239
Speaker 1: And now with that, we said, we're going to bring

1350
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,079
up pushback ministries from our TikTok you so let me

1351
01:06:28,119 --> 01:06:30,000
grab them and hopefully we'll get some debate.

1352
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 3: And there you go to the Spina fam. I will

1353
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,800
be emailing you back about the fundraiser, so I will

1354
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:38,360
be there.

1355
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,159
Speaker 2: Boocome bushback ministries. You're on XP with Justin and Jmike.

1356
01:06:43,159 --> 01:06:47,840
How aream? Hey? How's it going well? Are you at

1357
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:48,440
least eighteen?

1358
01:06:49,679 --> 01:06:50,079
Speaker 6: Yes?

1359
01:06:51,119 --> 01:06:54,559
Speaker 2: Awesome? Just checking for TikTok terms of service? And do

1360
01:06:54,599 --> 01:06:55,639
you believe in God?

1361
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 6: Yes?

1362
01:06:57,159 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 2: I'm a Christian? Awesome?

1363
01:07:00,239 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: And what do you think would be a good argument

1364
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:04,800
for your God existing?

1365
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 2: Or did you come to talk about something else? No,

1366
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,599
we can do that. I'm not a I'm not.

1367
01:07:11,559 --> 01:07:14,519
Speaker 9: A phil bro, but I do believe if I could

1368
01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:17,559
piggyback on the other callers, I think he was trying

1369
01:07:17,599 --> 01:07:20,280
to get somewhere, but he was kind of like, you know,

1370
01:07:20,639 --> 01:07:21,800
going off a little bit.

1371
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,519
Speaker 2: But I do think metaphysical.

1372
01:07:24,559 --> 01:07:36,039
Speaker 9: Concepts is a strong argument for the existence of God. Numbers, mathematics, information, time,

1373
01:07:38,559 --> 01:07:39,440
things that are.

1374
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: But I agree that those are interesting, I don't think

1375
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:46,920
that numbers actually exist.

1376
01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:50,599
Speaker 2: I fall into nominalism. J Mike, what are you classified as?

1377
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 3: I am also a nominalist. I was a platist though,

1378
01:07:54,559 --> 01:07:57,239
so I've been a platonist. I've argued platonism. I have

1379
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,159
arguments for Platonism. I just don't think they work.

1380
01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: So in order to move forward with some sort of

1381
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,719
transcendental argument, I guess you'd probably have to convince us

1382
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,039
that there are some transcendentals.

1383
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 2: Right, So I would say, Uh.

1384
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:16,119
Speaker 9: One of the things that made me become a believer, Uh,

1385
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:18,520
is because I was I was really into science before

1386
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,720
I became a believer, and you know, I started thinking

1387
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,520
about it. And to get to the transnidentals is like

1388
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:32,600
I realized that mathematics perfectly describes the universe in equations,

1389
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:36,159
and I had to ask myself, seriously, if I think

1390
01:08:36,199 --> 01:08:42,119
that everything came from blind, unconscious random forces, then why

1391
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:47,359
would there be this background language that perfectly describes things

1392
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:51,119
like engineering and gravity and the speed of light, And

1393
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:57,239
they can be perfectly articulated formulated and then and then

1394
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:01,600
used practically, and that they're in veir and that that

1395
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:06,079
was that's point I became. I started to become a believer,

1396
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:09,359
and I realized that the Christian worldview was the most

1397
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:10,760
coherent worldview.

1398
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: And there's a lot there.

1399
01:09:15,039 --> 01:09:17,279
Speaker 1: I would say, I think the Christian worldview is like

1400
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:20,239
the least coherent because like it just violates the laws

1401
01:09:20,239 --> 01:09:20,680
of logic.

1402
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: But outside of that, I don't know.

1403
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,319
Speaker 1: Why we would assume that these any of the things

1404
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:31,079
you listed are related to God. I don't believe that

1405
01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:34,000
numbers are a thing that exist that just happened to

1406
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,680
be there that we discovered. Seems like numbers are more

1407
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,760
like the English language, where we invented words to describe concepts.

1408
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:44,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't.

1409
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:48,079
Speaker 9: I would say that that's that's not an accurate description

1410
01:09:48,239 --> 01:09:51,960
because numbers are universal. Whereas so with the English language,

1411
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:56,439
you've got different languages and you can have completely different

1412
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,840
words and completely sound different sounds. But numbers are a

1413
01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:02,920
universal concept, meaning they.

1414
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:10,079
Speaker 2: They are there. There are no cross languages. Numbers are

1415
01:10:10,159 --> 01:10:12,439
just like languages. They're describing an idea.

1416
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: Like so if we have the idea of a tree,

1417
01:10:15,319 --> 01:10:18,840
every language has its own way of saying read. But

1418
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,319
the yeah, the idea tree though, is still there. It's

1419
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:25,840
universal across all languages, like no matter which language of

1420
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,680
matth you're speaking, whether you're doing Roman numerals or you're

1421
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:33,159
doing binary or you're doing like standard integers. Like we're

1422
01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:37,119
just these numbers are languages to describe a concept. It's

1423
01:10:37,159 --> 01:10:40,800
not like they exist transcendentally and if they if they did,

1424
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,920
I mean I'd love to know where I can find them.

1425
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:46,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely so.

1426
01:10:46,159 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 9: So we're looking at like the number, like when we

1427
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,880
write the symbol down for the number seven, or when

1428
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:56,560
I say the word seven and then can convey the

1429
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:00,119
thing to you that is seven. It's different when you

1430
01:11:00,239 --> 01:11:06,319
need seven protons and seven neutrons to balance this particular substance,

1431
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:10,840
and that's always the case. It's not mind contingent. So

1432
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,159
you're speaking on mind content numbers things, which are how

1433
01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:18,319
we describe things. Yes, numbers are not mind contingent numbers.

1434
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,399
Speaker 3: Just look if you look, if you have like seven acorns,

1435
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,560
you have, what's there are the acorns? Like when we

1436
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,279
take brains and then just make descriptions about the acorns

1437
01:11:28,319 --> 01:11:31,359
like there's seven or something. I think you're getting lost

1438
01:11:31,399 --> 01:11:34,600
on this weird thought that like when there's seven acorns,

1439
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,399
like there's something imbued with like seven in the world

1440
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:41,880
when there's not, right, there's just like instances of this

1441
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,520
object right.

1442
01:11:44,239 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 9: Right, But but but I'm getting down to the fundamentals

1443
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:54,279
of like how different chemicals and elements are balanced and created,

1444
01:11:54,359 --> 01:11:56,119
like you've got like uranium.

1445
01:11:56,239 --> 01:11:59,079
Speaker 3: And I mean, look, I get I could be a

1446
01:11:59,079 --> 01:12:01,479
plate in and will not believe in God. Right, I

1447
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,680
can think numbers are real and still not believe in God.

1448
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,880
So I don't really know if we should go down

1449
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,359
this for like a lengthy period of time. Like because

1450
01:12:09,359 --> 01:12:12,119
I was a Platonist in conjunction with being an atheist,

1451
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:17,279
I thought, you know, propositions were mind independent things, right, right,

1452
01:12:17,399 --> 01:12:19,439
It's right, It's perfectly fine to have that belief, But

1453
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,279
you know, I don't see what turns on it for theism.

1454
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:26,079
Speaker 9: Right, And I'm not real good on all the philosophical terms,

1455
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,359
But I would just say that when it hit me

1456
01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:33,680
when I became a believer, I believed in God, and

1457
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,800
then I became a Christian because I felt led to

1458
01:12:37,119 --> 01:12:40,960
Christianity being the most coherent worldview. But what but it

1459
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:44,920
hit me that there is an order in the universe.

1460
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,239
And because I used to be an atheist and a

1461
01:12:47,239 --> 01:12:49,720
physicalist and I believed in the Big Bang and I

1462
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,920
believed in evolution, I drank that sort of kool aid.

1463
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:58,079
And then I realized that how strength, how could.

1464
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 2: Let me just give me? And you read the science

1465
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:01,840
and believed it.

1466
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 3: So you don't think that there was like a series

1467
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:04,520
of pop.

1468
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,119
Speaker 9: To like fig In and I mean I was. I

1469
01:13:07,159 --> 01:13:09,760
was into Bryson and Dawkins. I mean I was, I

1470
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:14,079
was definitely to all that stuff. But now I now,

1471
01:13:14,159 --> 01:13:17,800
when I realized that like chemicals and chemistry and balance

1472
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,199
and strong and new weak nuclear forces and all these

1473
01:13:21,199 --> 01:13:27,520
things have a mathematical symmetry that is not explained well

1474
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,079
in a random physicalist universe, that.

1475
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:36,600
Speaker 3: Okay, that you're already wrong there, because again, being like

1476
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,039
you said this at the very beginning, that's not it's

1477
01:13:40,039 --> 01:13:45,199
not a dichotomy of theism or blind random chance like indeterminacy.

1478
01:13:45,279 --> 01:13:48,319
That's not a dichotomy. You can In fact, I'd be

1479
01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:50,239
willing to bet if I pold the audience if they

1480
01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:53,239
were determinists, a lot of them would say they are determinists,

1481
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:55,560
and a lot of them might be like, take it

1482
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,159
as far as like really hard determinism. They might go

1483
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,479
what's called necessity arianism, this idea that everything is necessary,

1484
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:06,640
there's no randomness at all. God doesn't exist, there's absolutely

1485
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,239
no indeterminacy in the world. An interpretation of quantum mechanics

1486
01:14:10,319 --> 01:14:12,960
isn't going to have indeterminacy under this view. And so

1487
01:14:13,319 --> 01:14:15,159
when you make when you stage it like that, you've

1488
01:14:15,199 --> 01:14:19,640
already created this false like scenario, this false dichotomy. It's

1489
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:22,880
not God or blind random chance. It could just be

1490
01:14:23,039 --> 01:14:25,159
necessary that the initial state of the universe starts the

1491
01:14:25,199 --> 01:14:28,600
way it does, and every subsequent event is also necessary. Right.

1492
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,159
In other words, the domino hits the next domino and

1493
01:14:31,159 --> 01:14:33,079
there's nothing else, there's no other domino to be a hit,

1494
01:14:33,319 --> 01:14:36,960
all right, So we got to squash that because that's

1495
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:38,600
already wrong thinking for my people.

1496
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:41,279
Speaker 9: Well, I understand that, but I mean, in that sense

1497
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:49,199
of determinism, you do realize that you're actually negating the

1498
01:14:49,319 --> 01:14:52,960
possibility for their being truth claims and falsities.

1499
01:14:53,159 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 2: So like for us to have this com.

1500
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 3: Not at all, not at all, give that argument. I'm

1501
01:14:58,680 --> 01:14:59,760
sure it'll be forthcoming.

1502
01:15:00,359 --> 01:15:07,239
Speaker 1: Oh boy, hey, pushback ministries. Are you familiar with Frank Turk. Oh, yeah,

1503
01:15:07,239 --> 01:15:09,560
because these kind of sound like Frank Turk talking points.

1504
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,199
There's not great talking points there are. There are better

1505
01:15:12,199 --> 01:15:13,159
apologetics than this.

1506
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1507
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,359
Speaker 9: Well, I mean this is just us having a conversation.

1508
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,560
I mean, I just can't see how you can give

1509
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,720
an account for balance and order and information in a

1510
01:15:24,239 --> 01:15:27,199
universe that, even if it's deterministic, what determined?

1511
01:15:27,399 --> 01:15:28,560
Speaker 2: What do you think order means?

1512
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,520
Speaker 9: Order means like sequence like things are seqt like there's

1513
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,119
repetitive nature.

1514
01:15:36,199 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 2: Is there a reason why that wouldn't exist in our worldview?

1515
01:15:39,119 --> 01:15:41,039
That is discernible rule?

1516
01:15:41,119 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 3: What rules that out in our view? Why wouldn't that

1517
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:45,000
That's a great question. Why wouldn't that exist in our view?

1518
01:15:45,239 --> 01:15:46,840
How is that not compatible with our view?

1519
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 9: I guess I would I guess I would ask you

1520
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:53,520
to give a justification for why it would exist.

1521
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like we've classic textbook burden shifting.

1522
01:15:58,199 --> 01:15:58,600
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

1523
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 1: Right, So your your claim is basically incredulity. I don't

1524
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,119
know how the atheist worldview can account for order.

1525
01:16:07,199 --> 01:16:10,279
Speaker 2: But that's not really an argument. That's just you being incredular.

1526
01:16:10,399 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 9: I think that the true Okham's raisor would would present

1527
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,960
that if we have a mind, and we use logic

1528
01:16:19,159 --> 01:16:20,800
to determine order.

1529
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 2: That order could only come from a mind.

1530
01:16:24,119 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 3: And Maham's razor. You've you've you've added like numbers, logic

1531
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,439
being its own thing. I don't know if it was

1532
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,079
you were the other guy with relations, but I think

1533
01:16:32,119 --> 01:16:35,279
you have probably that view, right. So you you've inflated

1534
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:39,039
your ontology massively, and we're looking at that. Me and

1535
01:16:39,199 --> 01:16:41,079
Justin are like, I don't want that ship in my

1536
01:16:41,199 --> 01:16:44,359
in my metaphysical theory. That's way too much ontology. That's

1537
01:16:44,359 --> 01:16:47,000
like the ontology pie Like it's like an ontology buffet.

1538
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:49,359
They don't need to eat that much. Dude.

1539
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, But then then do you think that there's a

1540
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:58,960
thing to being overly simplistic and like you so basically

1541
01:16:59,039 --> 01:17:01,159
so when I ask you you want me to give

1542
01:17:01,199 --> 01:17:06,039
a justification for God, which I'd say, God is metaphysical, okay,

1543
01:17:06,039 --> 01:17:07,439
But then when I asked you for.

1544
01:17:08,399 --> 01:17:11,119
Speaker 3: That mean what does that mean? I'm a naturalist. I'm

1545
01:17:11,119 --> 01:17:14,359
a metaph if I'm a metaphysical naturalist, my view is metaphysical.

1546
01:17:14,399 --> 01:17:17,359
It's just naturalism that it's not like a spooky word

1547
01:17:17,399 --> 01:17:21,199
that only works for like supernatural people. People think it's

1548
01:17:21,239 --> 01:17:24,560
like means something like supernatural. If you're a naturalist, a

1549
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,720
metaphysical naturalist, that is a metaphysical thesis. Physical is a

1550
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:29,920
metaphysical thesis.

1551
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 2: What is a what is a metaphysical naturalist? I'm not

1552
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:34,359
a philosophy gud.

1553
01:17:34,239 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 3: Oh, that's fine. Like so like for me, it would

1554
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,479
be like if I was if I said I was

1555
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,000
a metaphysical naturalist, what somebody like myself might say is

1556
01:17:43,079 --> 01:17:47,159
that there are There's like causal closure might be one

1557
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:49,439
thing that they go, there's nothing outside of the universe.

1558
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,880
There are no gods or goddesses. So like for me,

1559
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:56,520
I would say, look, every possible world the initial the

1560
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,239
universe starts with an initial state, and that initial state

1561
01:17:59,319 --> 01:18:02,600
is necessary. There's no like gods popping in and out,

1562
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:09,279
but that initial point of existence that is metaphysically necessary. Right,

1563
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,600
I'm talking about metaphysics, talking about the grand scheme of

1564
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,079
some view, but it just doesn't have gods in it

1565
01:18:16,119 --> 01:18:20,279
because theism doesn't monopolize metaphysics.

1566
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:23,760
Speaker 9: Right, I understand, But it isn't it fair for a

1567
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,479
theist to say that that's question begging you get to

1568
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:27,960
just say it is because it is.

1569
01:18:28,359 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 3: No I have look I can understand how somebody, if

1570
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:34,239
I'm telling them my view, I can understand how they

1571
01:18:34,279 --> 01:18:37,640
could misunderstand what I'm saying and charge me with question begging.

1572
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,560
The problem is is that I have independent motivations that

1573
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,640
I'd be happy to compare the view with with somebody.

1574
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,560
It's not just a footstomping or begging or question begging.

1575
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,920
It's going through a view like. Look, you don't have

1576
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:52,640
to have a view at all to do this process,

1577
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:54,399
really like, you don't have to have an established view.

1578
01:18:54,399 --> 01:18:57,520
You can look at two comparative views and see which

1579
01:18:57,560 --> 01:18:59,600
one you think wins out. And you do this with

1580
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:02,640
enough people or enough positions that you start to iron out,

1581
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:06,560
will look it idealism, platonism, property, egalism, all this kind

1582
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,600
of stuff that I believed is slowly getting ruled out

1583
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,039
as I compared this with some of my friends or

1584
01:19:12,279 --> 01:19:14,399
in my own head. And so for me, it wasn't

1585
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:17,720
question begging because I came to this position from the

1586
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,239
antithesis of this position. Right so, I don't know how

1587
01:19:21,279 --> 01:19:23,560
I beg the question on a position I didn't hold

1588
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:26,039
in the first place. Right now, It's what's true, I

1589
01:19:26,079 --> 01:19:27,880
could like beg the question when I talk to you.

1590
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:29,880
But what I'm gonna what I'm gonna end up doing

1591
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,359
is trying to compare our views and show, look, I

1592
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:35,520
think that my ontological economy, in other words, like all

1593
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:38,680
the things that I have postulated in my you know,

1594
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:41,000
my theory or in my framework, it's not as much

1595
01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:43,159
as you. And I think there's a real a good

1596
01:19:43,199 --> 01:19:44,880
reason why there's not as much, because I don't need

1597
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:47,359
that much to explain the data, right, And we go

1598
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,279
through it. We just go one by one. I look

1599
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:51,800
at you and you say, well, you think God created

1600
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:54,119
the initial state of the universe, And I go, I

1601
01:19:54,119 --> 01:19:56,119
don't think of God created the initial state of the universe.

1602
01:19:56,119 --> 01:19:59,600
It's necessary. We can start talking about it's this will

1603
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:01,000
get too much into the weeds. We could start talking

1604
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:03,359
about its motal status, whether it's contingent or necessary. And

1605
01:20:03,399 --> 01:20:05,920
I can just go through this process and show you

1606
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:10,359
why I wouldn't have God as this brute contingent origin

1607
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:12,960
or the universe being this kind of brute contingent fact

1608
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:15,640
that comes from God. Right, not an optimal theory by

1609
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:16,159
my lights.

1610
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:22,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I understand, but again, I mean when

1611
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,039
it comes down to it with me, I mean as

1612
01:20:25,079 --> 01:20:29,680
far as we know the information and order are our

1613
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:33,279
mind contingent. And your justification is that was just the

1614
01:20:33,279 --> 01:20:36,720
initial state of the universe. And my justification is, no,

1615
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,359
there's a mind because information is mind contingent. It is

1616
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:43,720
the Okham's raisor than a mind created order and created

1617
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:44,239
the universe.

1618
01:20:44,239 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 3: It not Oukham's raisor look how look, look you have

1619
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,239
the same thing I said to the other caller. We

1620
01:20:50,319 --> 01:20:53,119
both agree electrons and chairs and things in the universe exist.

1621
01:20:53,279 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 6: Right.

1622
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:56,439
Speaker 3: You don't deny like stars existing, right?

1623
01:20:57,680 --> 01:20:58,359
Speaker 2: No?

1624
01:20:58,319 --> 01:21:01,439
Speaker 3: Okay, great? We don't do is We don't take a

1625
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:05,000
proposition like God exists and then make some logical derivation

1626
01:21:05,079 --> 01:21:08,119
to the existence of electrons or the existence of chairs.

1627
01:21:08,279 --> 01:21:11,319
We don't get that for free by postulating God. I

1628
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:13,960
don't get that for free by postulating the initial state

1629
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,439
of the universe. We're both on an even playing field, right,

1630
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,199
So what ends up happening is we do like this countenance.

1631
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:21,520
We both have the same kind of things in our view.

1632
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:23,479
Maybe there's some stuff in the world we both don't share,

1633
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,159
but the point of the comparison is to find data

1634
01:21:26,199 --> 01:21:28,720
we do agree upon. There's no point of me talking

1635
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,520
to you about angels and explaining angels, because there's no

1636
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:34,039
angels in my view. But what is shared between our

1637
01:21:34,119 --> 01:21:36,760
view is an initial state of the universe. You think

1638
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,239
God creates it. I don't think God creates it. I

1639
01:21:39,239 --> 01:21:43,399
think it's a necessary initial point. But we're in agreement

1640
01:21:44,119 --> 01:21:46,560
for the sake of this conversation that there's no infinite

1641
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,239
past universe. We're both in agreement, so we have something

1642
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:53,199
to compare. What do I think best explains that initial state,

1643
01:21:53,359 --> 01:21:56,560
that it's metaphysically necessary. What do you think? You think

1644
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:58,760
that it's brutally contingent or you think it's contingent. It

1645
01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:02,359
depends on whether or not God decides to create one. Okay, well,

1646
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,920
your view talks about explanations. What's the explanation for why

1647
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:09,239
God chooses to make an initial state of the universe

1648
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:11,720
rather than not Why does he do that? Rather than

1649
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:13,800
just not smoking a big fat God bowl or a

1650
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,520
big fat God blunt, being like, I'm fucking awesome, I'm God.

1651
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:19,720
Why does any do that? It's part of your explanatory

1652
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:23,640
framework to explain why he does this rather than not

1653
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:25,560
do it. But I have a feeling if I was

1654
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:27,960
to press you on that, we get into this weird

1655
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,319
brute area of explanation. You wouldn't to know why God

1656
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,800
chooses to create a universe rather than not create a universe,

1657
01:22:35,159 --> 01:22:37,399
And that just seems like, Wow, you have an extra

1658
01:22:37,399 --> 01:22:39,720
additional thing in your view and you can't even give

1659
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,520
its explanatory role. So that's why I opt for views

1660
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,119
that don't do that, that don't add an additional entity,

1661
01:22:46,359 --> 01:22:48,840
and that when pressed why does God create the universe

1662
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,199
rather than not create the universe? And someone throws their

1663
01:22:51,199 --> 01:22:53,239
hands up, or we get into this infinite chain of

1664
01:22:53,239 --> 01:22:56,399
brute contingent desires. I'm just gonna go, I don't want

1665
01:22:56,399 --> 01:22:58,319
that view, but that view is not optimal for.

1666
01:22:58,319 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 2: Me, right, No, no, no, I got you.

1667
01:23:02,039 --> 01:23:06,119
Speaker 9: And again, So I mean, I think that when you

1668
01:23:06,199 --> 01:23:10,840
do philosophical arguments, ultimately you can almost always get down

1669
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,600
to a point of circularity.

1670
01:23:13,159 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 2: And in my mind, God.

1671
01:23:15,199 --> 01:23:17,199
Speaker 9: Is the only thing that can get you out of

1672
01:23:17,199 --> 01:23:21,319
that circularity because basically, what we're saying is there was

1673
01:23:21,399 --> 01:23:24,920
a point of origin of the universe, and you're saying,

1674
01:23:25,359 --> 01:23:28,640
I don't know, but I believe that there is natural

1675
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:32,560
processes and balances and order and information, and I don't

1676
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:33,640
need to give an account.

1677
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 2: And I'm saying God and always said, Okay.

1678
01:23:37,239 --> 01:23:39,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't say that. And look, Justin can explain

1679
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:42,399
this to you, like, we both have very similar thoughts

1680
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:46,319
about this, and so I need to stop walking over Justin. Right,

1681
01:23:47,079 --> 01:23:47,920
I'm going to shut up.

1682
01:23:48,039 --> 01:23:49,000
Speaker 2: It's okay.

1683
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:52,600
Speaker 1: Well, you keep saying that we have to explain the

1684
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:53,920
order and the information.

1685
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 2: I don't believe that it exists. I think the things

1686
01:23:57,439 --> 01:23:58,159
that we call.

1687
01:23:58,159 --> 01:24:01,199
Speaker 1: Order, the things that we call information and are just

1688
01:24:01,239 --> 01:24:04,840
abstracts that our mind are saying, Oh, that does a thing,

1689
01:24:05,319 --> 01:24:07,079
the thing that it does, We're just going to call

1690
01:24:07,119 --> 01:24:09,840
it order. But like the fact that we call it order,

1691
01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:12,239
it doesn't mean that it is in fact order. That's

1692
01:24:12,279 --> 01:24:15,560
just how we have chosen to describe a particular process.

1693
01:24:16,039 --> 01:24:18,640
I'm not really sure what you mean when we say,

1694
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:20,920
like we have to explain order. Why do we have

1695
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:21,920
to explain order?

1696
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:26,720
Speaker 9: Well, because I would say that because of our minds,

1697
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:32,680
and only because of our minds, things are demonstratable, repeatable,

1698
01:24:33,079 --> 01:24:37,840
we can give an epistemic justification for them, and that,

1699
01:24:38,159 --> 01:24:42,800
as far as we know, that is mind contingent. So

1700
01:24:43,039 --> 01:24:45,399
the fact that that's outside of the mind, and yet

1701
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:48,479
the mind is the only reason that we can.

1702
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:52,359
Speaker 2: Verify that process leads.

1703
01:24:52,079 --> 01:24:54,239
Speaker 9: Me to believe that those things that are outside of

1704
01:24:54,319 --> 01:24:57,600
the mind required and mind, they require a mind to observe,

1705
01:24:57,680 --> 01:24:59,880
to repeat, to test, and then to use and like

1706
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,920
for example, engineering principles that have stood the test of

1707
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:10,439
time for thanks, but they also they epistemically require an

1708
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:11,319
initial mind.

1709
01:25:11,399 --> 01:25:14,159
Speaker 1: But I think you've confused. I think you're confusing what's

1710
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:17,880
happening here. The order that we speak of, Like when

1711
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,800
I say when I look at something, I say that

1712
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:24,960
looks orderly. The orderliness doesn't exist outside of my mind.

1713
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:28,680
That's just a phrase that I used to describe something.

1714
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:31,560
And we could determine what we think orderly is. There's

1715
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,039
so many ways to describe something that we think is

1716
01:25:34,079 --> 01:25:38,479
in order. So it's not like there's this mind dependent

1717
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,479
thing that exists outside of our own minds. That's not

1718
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,039
what we're saying. What we're saying is that the word

1719
01:25:44,239 --> 01:25:47,720
order is just describing what our minds think about something.

1720
01:25:48,199 --> 01:25:48,600
Speaker 2: That's it.

1721
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:51,640
Speaker 9: Right, Well, let's go into that because I can. I

1722
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:55,760
could give you some examples. Let's say time you have

1723
01:25:55,880 --> 01:26:00,119
past present future induction. You have a perfect system that,

1724
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:03,039
as far as we know it can't be violated out

1725
01:26:03,239 --> 01:26:05,239
unless you're out in my worldview, you would say that

1726
01:26:05,279 --> 01:26:07,920
God supernaturally could violate it. But let's just say, for example,

1727
01:26:08,199 --> 01:26:10,520
in the human mind, you have past, present in the future.

1728
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:13,840
The past is always the past. It always becomes the present,

1729
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:17,840
and then and then tomorrow. The future always becomes the present.

1730
01:26:18,159 --> 01:26:23,960
Why would that system exist and then perfectly? And that's

1731
01:26:24,199 --> 01:26:27,399
are you saying that that's mind dependent, that's only inside

1732
01:26:27,399 --> 01:26:27,760
the mind.

1733
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 1: No, I have no idea what you're talking about. The

1734
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:35,079
sequencing of events is not mind dependent. We describe it

1735
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:39,600
by using time terminology. But the sequencing of events is

1736
01:26:40,079 --> 01:26:42,079
just how reality behaves.

1737
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 2: Everything that doesn't happen all at once.

1738
01:26:45,199 --> 01:26:46,800
Speaker 9: But when I could say the same, I could just

1739
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:49,239
be like, well, that's just how God behaves, like when

1740
01:26:49,279 --> 01:26:51,119
I look at nature, like that's the thing.

1741
01:26:51,159 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 2: You're using the same argument that I would make.

1742
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 1: Well, you don't know how God behaves because you don't

1743
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:58,279
have any demonstration of God. Right, you're just saying that

1744
01:26:58,319 --> 01:27:01,239
I could say that's how zaboomafu behaves. Well, okay, well

1745
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,560
tell me it's the boomafoo, right.

1746
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 9: But I would say that that the Scripture and the

1747
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:11,159
Church give an account of God creating nature and the

1748
01:27:11,279 --> 01:27:15,479
order in nature is a demonstration of God. And so

1749
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:17,880
like when I say, then, you say, well past present,

1750
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:19,439
why would I trust the script They.

1751
01:27:19,359 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 2: Just behaved that way, like why do you get to

1752
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:24,560
use that? But I can't. But why do you mean

1753
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:26,399
why would we trust the scripture on any of this?

1754
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,159
Speaker 1: Like we're evidence based, like we're basing it on actual evidence,

1755
01:27:30,239 --> 01:27:31,439
not what a book said.

1756
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,399
Speaker 9: Yeah, but but but yours is unfalsifiable because the second

1757
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:41,520
that I say, will give me acation for it? You say, oh, no,

1758
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,840
that's just how it is. So you questioned big everybody,

1759
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:45,760
I didn't say that.

1760
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:46,520
Speaker 4: In a corner.

1761
01:27:47,159 --> 01:27:48,600
Speaker 2: I never said that one to.

1762
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,520
Speaker 3: Do I think, no, hold on, hold on, I think

1763
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:53,119
he's I think he's talking about what I said about

1764
01:27:53,159 --> 01:27:55,520
the initial state being necessary, and he's just saying it's

1765
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:59,479
like foot stomping that that's the case. No, Like, look, yeah,

1766
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,960
that's that is what you're saying, right, you're talking about

1767
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:02,520
what I had said.

1768
01:28:03,279 --> 01:28:06,399
Speaker 2: Well basically, well both of you, because when I asked, justin.

1769
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:09,119
Speaker 3: That's all that's wine. Hold On, I don't want to

1770
01:28:09,119 --> 01:28:12,840
get I don't want to get off off that yet. Look,

1771
01:28:14,079 --> 01:28:16,640
the point that there's a difference between scientific inquery and

1772
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:22,279
what metaphysicians do right. Their metaphysicians aren't going out doing

1773
01:28:22,359 --> 01:28:26,399
novel predictions for their metaphysical thesis. Something they're doing a

1774
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:30,840
right Like at least I'm not aware of these. Someone

1775
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:32,720
can bring it to my attention to be great, But

1776
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:34,479
it seems like we enter into the realm of like

1777
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:38,119
empirical investigation. And luckily for a lot of people with

1778
01:28:38,119 --> 01:28:42,039
different metaphysical views, our investigation about the world and what

1779
01:28:42,079 --> 01:28:46,000
we do is compatible with a range of metaphysical thesis

1780
01:28:46,039 --> 01:28:48,399
that are not compatible with each other. Right, So an

1781
01:28:48,399 --> 01:28:51,399
idealist can look at scientific query and make it part

1782
01:28:51,399 --> 01:28:53,560
of their view, like anyone can do this, They can

1783
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:58,000
umbrella that with their view pretty easily. Right, when we're

1784
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:00,479
talking about metaphysics, I think we're kind of shit out

1785
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:02,640
of luck with a lot of our Like someone just

1786
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:05,560
tells me, well, I think your view violates a metaphysical

1787
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:08,600
principle or something. Okay, what's the principle and virtue of what?

1788
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:09,319
Did I?

1789
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:09,520
Speaker 5: Like?

1790
01:29:10,199 --> 01:29:13,840
Speaker 3: Why should I even adopt this principle? Like you know,

1791
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,199
is this just seems the falsity of my position. So

1792
01:29:16,279 --> 01:29:19,279
what we have to do instead is from my lights

1793
01:29:19,359 --> 01:29:21,479
is compare the view, find a data point at which

1794
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,359
we agree and compare what's better? Now, would you agree

1795
01:29:24,399 --> 01:29:28,640
with me that you shouldn't have more things than that

1796
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:32,079
are required to explain that if like all hell, all

1797
01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:34,960
else equal, right, we should get rid of one an

1798
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,439
extra thing. If me and Justin are talking about evolution

1799
01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:40,479
and he has one more postulate than I do, and

1800
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:42,880
I make the same predictions that he does, but he's

1801
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:45,319
got one more thing. Pretty clear that the extra thing

1802
01:29:45,359 --> 01:29:47,880
he has isn't doing work because I'm getting the same

1803
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:49,159
result without it, right.

1804
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:54,600
Speaker 9: I would agree if it doesn't lead to question big, Okay,

1805
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,079
just stay with me, stay, just stay with me.

1806
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 3: So we agree that when comparing the some about hypotheses,

1807
01:30:01,119 --> 01:30:04,239
we're comparing those hypotheses. It's clear that Justin's doesn't favor out.

1808
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:06,720
He makes the same prediction, so he gets results, but

1809
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:08,399
so do I, and I don't have the extra thing

1810
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:10,840
he does, so clearly that thing's not doing work. So

1811
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:13,439
now when I look at your view and your metaphysical view, right,

1812
01:30:14,119 --> 01:30:17,399
you have an extra thing? Now that doesn't disqualify you.

1813
01:30:17,399 --> 01:30:20,199
You could give me like reasons on why you think

1814
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:23,159
that you need to postulate God and that in fact,

1815
01:30:23,279 --> 01:30:27,720
mister naturalist or mister Mike, you do have less things

1816
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:30,279
than me, but you need this additional thing to explain

1817
01:30:30,319 --> 01:30:33,479
the data. Right, That's one task that you should be doing.

1818
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:36,039
That's the burden that you need to meet to convince

1819
01:30:36,079 --> 01:30:39,000
someone like me my background with the reason I have

1820
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:41,359
the position I do. I never met you, bro, I

1821
01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:44,399
don't need to explain to you the hundreds and hundreds

1822
01:30:44,399 --> 01:30:47,039
of conversations I've had and what I've read and the

1823
01:30:47,039 --> 01:30:48,920
things I've done in my own time to go, I've

1824
01:30:49,039 --> 01:30:51,680
landed up this is the better position. I've had positions.

1825
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:53,720
I think the universe has passed infinite. I've had different

1826
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:56,000
positions that I've changed from. I don't just go, I'm

1827
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:59,319
going to beg the question. I have reasons motivations on

1828
01:30:59,399 --> 01:31:01,840
why I prefer that thesis over other ones, and it

1829
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:05,279
typically it's because I don't need to add extra entities

1830
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,960
where I already explained the data equally, right, So we

1831
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:11,039
can go through this process and I can kind of

1832
01:31:11,079 --> 01:31:12,800
show it to you how you have extra things. But

1833
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:15,039
I don't want to waste you know, I don't want

1834
01:31:15,039 --> 01:31:16,760
to talk over Justin and waste more people's time. But I,

1835
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:20,800
you know, point out to me where anything I've said

1836
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:24,319
is parasitic on accepting the conclusion. I've never once said,

1837
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,800
I've never given you a reason in this entire conversation

1838
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:30,600
that if in order for you to accept that reason,

1839
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:32,319
you would already have to be a naturalist. I've never

1840
01:31:32,399 --> 01:31:34,880
done that once to you.

1841
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:36,000
Speaker 2: No, I get it.

1842
01:31:36,079 --> 01:31:39,640
Speaker 9: I mean the whole, the entirety of my argument has

1843
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:45,119
been that information, order, balance, the laws of nature are fundamentally,

1844
01:31:45,159 --> 01:31:47,279
as far as we know, mind contingent, and that I

1845
01:31:47,279 --> 01:31:51,720
would say that that makes the claim that there had

1846
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:53,479
to be a mind to create them, for to have

1847
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:56,199
a mind that observed them. And when I take it

1848
01:31:56,239 --> 01:31:59,680
back to that initial state of the universe, yours has

1849
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:04,960
been that, Hey, numbers and order and balance and these things.

1850
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 3: Are he can explain why there's an initial state and

1851
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:12,079
subsequent events events without God. What do you not understand

1852
01:32:12,119 --> 01:32:12,359
about it?

1853
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 6: What is it?

1854
01:32:13,199 --> 01:32:16,119
Speaker 9: You haven't okay, you haven't given me an explanation. And

1855
01:32:16,319 --> 01:32:19,960
Justin said he doesn't need to give a justification of that.

1856
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 2: I can't have address that at all, actually give a

1857
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:26,000
source for it. Yeah, I didn't say that. Well what okay?

1858
01:32:26,119 --> 01:32:29,560
Speaker 9: So how do you account for induction, past, present, and

1859
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:33,079
future being orderly, smooth and invariant like.

1860
01:32:33,039 --> 01:32:36,279
Speaker 3: This stop and this is also just going to be

1861
01:32:36,279 --> 01:32:38,399
so like detrimental to your own position. How do you

1862
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:41,279
know God won't change his nature from X to Y tomorrow?

1863
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:44,239
Do you think you you think adding God's solves some

1864
01:32:44,359 --> 01:32:46,119
problem of induction that you don't have to deal with.

1865
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:48,520
How do you know God doesn't has X character? How

1866
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:50,640
do you know tomorrow he won't be why character? How

1867
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:53,680
do you know? How does God solve that problem of

1868
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:54,640
induction for you? Go ahead?

1869
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:59,399
Speaker 9: Because God? Because the concept of numbers. I'm not talking

1870
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:03,640
linguistic about numbers. I'm talking about mathematics as a universal

1871
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:04,840
metaphysical principle.

1872
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 2: If I don't believe they're metaphoral.

1873
01:33:09,199 --> 01:33:13,359
Speaker 9: It has it has explanatory power in the universe. When

1874
01:33:13,399 --> 01:33:15,680
we look at elements, when we look at chemistry, when

1875
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:17,520
we look at gravity, when we look at strong and

1876
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:21,159
weak nuclear forces, we can apply the concepts of numbers.

1877
01:33:21,159 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 2: No matter what symbols you use.

1878
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,680
Speaker 9: We can balance and make credative equations.

1879
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:32,279
Speaker 1: We've already whenever we invented numbers to describe quantities in reality,

1880
01:33:32,319 --> 01:33:34,840
that's what they do, and they describe relationships too. But

1881
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:37,079
these are these are things that we invented. We invented

1882
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:40,239
the usage of numbers, but.

1883
01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:44,399
Speaker 9: The concept of number. We didn't invent the concept of numbers.

1884
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:47,239
Speaker 2: We did the concept of Really, for example, let me

1885
01:33:47,239 --> 01:33:47,960
give you an example.

1886
01:33:48,359 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 9: Okay, a squirrel is in a tree, right, a squirrel

1887
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:57,920
has seven seven baby squirrels. Does the squirrel go out

1888
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:01,439
and get eight nuts? Does a scroll go out and

1889
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:05,680
get six nuts? Certainly, certainly depends.

1890
01:34:05,399 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 2: On how many nuts it wants to get. But you're

1891
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:08,600
you're missing the point.

1892
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:11,079
Speaker 1: If there are no human beings that have ever lived,

1893
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:13,399
then there's no such thing as number seven.

1894
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:16,680
Speaker 2: The question is that out of the gate, right the.

1895
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 9: But the principle of seven exists, and it's right, it doesn't.

1896
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:25,359
Speaker 1: We invented it. We invented the principle of seven. We said, hey,

1897
01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:29,199
we're gonna we're gonna say this is one and this

1898
01:34:29,319 --> 01:34:31,720
is two. We we just invented that. The principle is

1899
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:34,520
strictly dependent on humans creating it.

1900
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:40,159
Speaker 9: So, so when you have elements that need a certain

1901
01:34:40,239 --> 01:34:44,399
number of protons and a certain number of electrons in

1902
01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:48,119
order to create that exact element, and that is always

1903
01:34:48,119 --> 01:34:53,640
demonstrated that way, you're telling me that it's not mind

1904
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,239
that that's not mind dependent and that doesn't have a

1905
01:34:56,359 --> 01:34:59,279
number where that we gave a linguistic.

1906
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:03,039
Speaker 1: Never said physics is much independent. I said math is right.

1907
01:35:03,319 --> 01:35:09,119
Speaker 9: But but math perfectly describes physics.

1908
01:35:09,239 --> 01:35:11,279
Speaker 2: I know, because we invented it. Right.

1909
01:35:11,359 --> 01:35:15,640
Speaker 1: When we get mathematical formulas that don't describe adequately physics,

1910
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:16,600
we get rid of them.

1911
01:35:17,159 --> 01:35:18,119
Speaker 2: That's how math works.

1912
01:35:18,119 --> 01:35:20,880
Speaker 1: When we find something that works mathematically, said, oh, we

1913
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:25,920
got something that adequately describes the speed of light. Congratulations,

1914
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:28,399
let's keep it. And then sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we

1915
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:30,159
come up with a math formu that doesn't actually work.

1916
01:35:30,159 --> 01:35:31,560
We're like, oh, actually, we need to get rid of that.

1917
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:34,960
So math is again it's us describing stuff.

1918
01:35:35,079 --> 01:35:35,520
Speaker 2: That's it.

1919
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:41,319
Speaker 9: We We couldn't have invented it when the pre literally

1920
01:35:41,319 --> 01:35:45,640
did invent it to describe it. We're there before we

1921
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:49,159
supposedly invented it. So we discovered it. We wrong invented.

1922
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:52,960
Speaker 3: We didn't discover one plus one does it say algebraic expressions.

1923
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:54,079
We're just like chilling out in.

1924
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:58,800
Speaker 9: The book when you talk about just put a little

1925
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:04,840
bit trigonometry in a bucket. It, Yeah, trigonometry, for example,

1926
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:07,239
the calculation of angles I math my job.

1927
01:36:07,279 --> 01:36:09,319
Speaker 2: All the math mathys.

1928
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:13,079
Speaker 3: Go grab me sign and tan oh wait.

1929
01:36:15,119 --> 01:36:22,359
Speaker 2: Okato, motherfuckers, let's go. So you guys are physically you

1930
01:36:22,359 --> 01:36:23,800
guys are physicalists.

1931
01:36:24,079 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 3: No one here said the no one here said no

1932
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:28,560
one here said the word physicalism.

1933
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't say that. But but also I feel

1934
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:33,479
like this conversation.

1935
01:36:33,279 --> 01:36:35,239
Speaker 1: Could be spiced up a little bit because it sounds

1936
01:36:35,279 --> 01:36:39,199
like you're really interested in things that are logical. I

1937
01:36:39,239 --> 01:36:42,720
don't understand how you get to anything coherent in the Trinity.

1938
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:44,199
You do believe in the Trinity, right.

1939
01:36:45,199 --> 01:36:49,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely, How do you how do you make uh like

1940
01:36:49,359 --> 01:36:52,159
the Trinity logical? Seems like a violences the law of identity.

1941
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:56,880
How can Jesus be identically identical to God but lack

1942
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:58,359
God's essential properties?

1943
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:04,800
Speaker 9: Well, first off, God, you can't apply the laws of

1944
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:07,920
logic to God because God.

1945
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:11,760
Speaker 2: Is God, ill logical created the laws of God.

1946
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:16,680
Speaker 9: Is not confined to the human minds, the illogical or

1947
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:18,000
the human mind?

1948
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:23,640
Speaker 2: Is God logical or illogical? I mean, I would say

1949
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:27,520
that God is logical, okay, so does God do things

1950
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:28,399
that are illogical?

1951
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:30,039
Speaker 3: Well?

1952
01:37:30,119 --> 01:37:34,960
Speaker 9: I would also I would also add that God is supernatural, so.

1953
01:37:35,239 --> 01:37:38,600
Speaker 2: Just needed yes or no logic? Just needed yes or no.

1954
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 1: Is God doing things logically or sometimes illogically?

1955
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:50,199
Speaker 9: Uh, well, it's hard because we're limited to the confines

1956
01:37:50,199 --> 01:37:53,439
of the human mind, So it's not really a question

1957
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:54,119
I can answer.

1958
01:37:54,119 --> 01:37:57,399
Speaker 2: I don't know. You don't know if God knows logic.

1959
01:37:59,239 --> 01:38:01,680
I mean, to our God is supernatural.

1960
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:03,800
Speaker 9: So like when the sun stops in the Book of Joshua,

1961
01:38:03,840 --> 01:38:05,960
for example, is that logical?

1962
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 2: No, in the way we measure.

1963
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:11,279
Speaker 3: There's no contradiction in the sun stopping in the sky,

1964
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:14,760
that's what. There's no contradiction. So yeah, it is logical.

1965
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,039
I think you're using a generic kind of way that

1966
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:20,600
people normally speak, which is fine, but we mean something

1967
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:23,039
a little bit more robust. Yeah, Like some people go,

1968
01:38:23,079 --> 01:38:24,920
that's it logical that the sun one just stops. No,

1969
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:28,359
But like in pure there's no contradiction entailed by the

1970
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:30,319
sun stopping in the sky. You would never get a

1971
01:38:30,319 --> 01:38:33,760
contradiction out of that. It's just probably physically impossible or

1972
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,840
goes against our background knowledge of what we know about

1973
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:36,199
the sun.

1974
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:38,680
Speaker 4: But I have a.

1975
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 9: Very basic Christian worldview that goes on the basic Christian

1976
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:45,239
principles and teachings of the Church, and I believe that

1977
01:38:45,279 --> 01:38:48,880
the Trinity is the only way to really read the Bible.

1978
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,880
Speaker 2: If you don't have a triune God, well.

1979
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 1: Can maybe the Bible is wrong then, right, So if

1980
01:38:56,439 --> 01:39:00,920
the Bible is committing a violation against the law of identity,

1981
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:03,880
maybe the Bible right, Maybe we shouldn't believe in a

1982
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:05,439
God that's illogical.

1983
01:39:05,319 --> 01:39:07,680
Speaker 3: And maybe like maybe like think about it this way,

1984
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:09,880
like I don't know, give you like something that might

1985
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:12,479
hit more at home with a problem. I don't know

1986
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:16,399
if it will, but like presumably on your view, God,

1987
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,960
like the Father doesn't affirm the proposition that he's the Son.

1988
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:24,840
Speaker 5: Right God?

1989
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:27,119
Speaker 2: The Father doesn't, Yeah, he doesn't.

1990
01:39:27,159 --> 01:39:30,039
Speaker 3: He doesn't affir he denies the proposition. Like it's false

1991
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:34,039
to say that he would affirm the a proposition that

1992
01:39:34,079 --> 01:39:34,800
he's the Son.

1993
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:39,560
Speaker 9: Right, I mean, I would just say that God is

1994
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:40,359
one being.

1995
01:39:41,159 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 3: I'm talking about the Father. The Father affirms he's the Father, right,

1996
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:48,640
it seems that's a really easy one. The Father affirms

1997
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:51,800
he's the Father, right, Okay, Yeah, Okay, Does the Father

1998
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:53,079
affirm he's the Holy Spirit?

1999
01:39:56,439 --> 01:39:56,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2000
01:39:57,319 --> 01:39:58,319
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know.

2001
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I guess there's like some thinking to

2002
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:02,119
do there. But I'm trying to point out that, like,

2003
01:40:02,159 --> 01:40:04,920
if you think that they have this kind of distinct person,

2004
01:40:05,159 --> 01:40:09,880
they're like these persons, they're gonna have different They're gonna

2005
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:15,680
have different propositional attitudes, different cognitive mindsets. Right, Someone's going

2006
01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:18,239
to be saying, I'm not the father, uh, and I'm

2007
01:40:18,279 --> 01:40:20,199
the Son. And someone's gonna be saying, like, you know,

2008
01:40:20,359 --> 01:40:22,319
I'm not the son and I'm the Father, I'm not

2009
01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:24,199
the I don't know if I did the same thing twice,

2010
01:40:24,239 --> 01:40:24,760
but you know what I.

2011
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:27,079
Speaker 2: Mean, Yeah, I understand.

2012
01:40:27,119 --> 01:40:29,079
Speaker 9: I mean the reason that I believe in the Trinity

2013
01:40:29,199 --> 01:40:33,680
so strong is I do believe that there are three

2014
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:38,520
beings that are accredited to being God in the Bible,

2015
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,039
but I believe that it's it's it's one God. And

2016
01:40:41,079 --> 01:40:43,239
I believe that when you read they wont the Old

2017
01:40:43,279 --> 01:40:47,840
Testament and you have like examples of like three beings

2018
01:40:47,840 --> 01:40:51,680
showing up to Abraham or Yahweh sending fire down from

2019
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:54,720
Yahweh while Yahweh was watching Sodomon goamoor. I believe it's

2020
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:56,920
the only like the Angel of the Lord, it's the

2021
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:00,319
only way to read and then makes sense. But I

2022
01:41:00,319 --> 01:41:04,640
don't I disagree report to have perfect sense of the Scripture.

2023
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,399
I just have a general Christian faith. It goes with

2024
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:09,840
the teachings of the Church and the scriptures. And I'm

2025
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:11,399
not a soul a script I disagree with.

2026
01:41:11,279 --> 01:41:13,760
Speaker 1: All those interpretations of the Hebrew Bible, but it's not

2027
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:14,560
really on point.

2028
01:41:16,359 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 2: If if you're God.

2029
01:41:19,159 --> 01:41:22,199
Speaker 1: Violates like the Trinity violates the laws of logic, it's

2030
01:41:22,279 --> 01:41:25,319
like incoherent you're saying, there's three in one. What does

2031
01:41:25,359 --> 01:41:27,359
it mean to be one? How do you go from

2032
01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:29,920
three gods to one God? What makes them one instead

2033
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:30,359
of three?

2034
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,680
Speaker 9: Well, like one example would be like Terrence Howard to

2035
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:38,399
figure it out. I'm yeah, like I'm I'm I'm pushback ministries,

2036
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:43,079
but I'm also dad. I'm also a manager roles, I'm

2037
01:41:43,119 --> 01:41:45,680
also a home owner. Like you could those are roles,

2038
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:49,239
I'm still those are just titles.

2039
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:54,720
Speaker 2: For roles that you play. God isn't isn't role playing? Right? Well,

2040
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:57,600
I you know what, I don't think that you can

2041
01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:00,399
violate when you're a manager. Do you pray to your elf?

2042
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:04,680
Speaker 1: Do you pray to yourself in a different location and

2043
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:06,079
wait for answers to come back?

2044
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:08,880
Speaker 2: No, Because I'm a human being, I mean I pray

2045
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,359
to God. Well, that's the difference.

2046
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:14,119
Speaker 1: Jesus is praying to God, which means Jesus is either

2047
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:18,520
completely distinct from God or Jesus has like got some

2048
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:23,079
sort of a mental delusion. No, I would that if

2049
01:42:23,119 --> 01:42:26,159
modalism is modalism is true, Jesus is praying to nobody.

2050
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 2: Well, I don't believe in mobilism. I I Well, I

2051
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,439
think that it's so if Jesus. If you don't believe

2052
01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:38,359
in modalism, and Jesus is praying to somebody, he's praying

2053
01:42:38,399 --> 01:42:41,880
to another entity, an entity that has its own mind,

2054
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:47,319
will and emotions, so another entity we would call that God. Well,

2055
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:51,600
so Jesus is either another God or he's not God. Yeah,

2056
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,680
I mean I don't I'm not a soul of scriptoire.

2057
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:55,000
Speaker 1: Guy.

2058
01:42:55,079 --> 01:42:58,920
Speaker 9: I believe the Scripture is there to teach us about

2059
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:02,119
the state of the world and the Christian life. And

2060
01:43:02,159 --> 01:43:05,680
when Jesus prays in the Garden of Yosemite and says, nevertheless,

2061
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:07,760
not my will, but thy will, I just think that's

2062
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:10,319
an example for Christians on how to pray.

2063
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:13,319
Speaker 3: Who wrote that down? By the way, who was like

2064
01:43:13,359 --> 01:43:15,800
there to write that down? I'm always so confused when

2065
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:18,720
like Jesus is crying in the garden, Like, who's even there?

2066
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,079
There's like no one there. Am I wrong about this?

2067
01:43:21,239 --> 01:43:23,720
Justin there's like no one there? But this story is

2068
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:27,039
like written down. What the fuck is that? Like, I'm

2069
01:43:27,199 --> 01:43:28,840
I'm not trying to be rude, but like I've never

2070
01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:31,039
been a Christian. I see shit like that and I'm

2071
01:43:31,079 --> 01:43:34,560
immediately like, oh my God, Like this is so fake,

2072
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:35,560
This is so fake.

2073
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:41,199
Speaker 2: I also recall the disciples that were there. We're sleeping, well.

2074
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:44,960
Speaker 3: They yeah, the disciples are sleeping. Yeah, I looked. I

2075
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:47,039
could have sworn. There's no one there to jot it down,

2076
01:43:47,039 --> 01:43:49,000
but like we get it perfect. We know exactly what

2077
01:43:49,079 --> 01:43:51,520
Jesus said right crying, And it's like, what, I mean,

2078
01:43:51,560 --> 01:43:53,720
what reason would anybody have to think that other than

2079
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:55,840
a book says a thing. That's literally all you could

2080
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:57,640
ever do is a book says a thing and then

2081
01:43:57,680 --> 01:43:59,640
you accept it. You couldn't. There could be no other

2082
01:43:59,640 --> 01:44:02,079
way to it unless it was like God revealed it

2083
01:44:02,119 --> 01:44:03,159
to you or something. I guess.

2084
01:44:03,239 --> 01:44:09,239
Speaker 9: But yeah, well, I also don't think that I'm a

2085
01:44:09,279 --> 01:44:10,960
first peer three fifteen apologist.

2086
01:44:11,079 --> 01:44:14,000
Speaker 2: I'm I'm being obedient to defend the faith, but I don't.

2087
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 3: Think we appreciate it. We appreciate you. You actually live

2088
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:19,640
up the first verse Peter three fifteen call in. We

2089
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:20,800
ask people to do that all the time.

2090
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:24,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, I appreciate I appreciate it.

2091
01:44:24,239 --> 01:44:27,199
Speaker 9: I think the strongest argument for the stronger argument for

2092
01:44:27,279 --> 01:44:32,479
God is on teleology, the moral argument. I mean, that's

2093
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,960
if you believe in morality, and I just believe that if.

2094
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 2: Buddy, I don't know if you want to do the

2095
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:42,399
more argument.

2096
01:44:42,399 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 9: There's no objective claim to right or wrong as long

2097
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:46,640
as you admit that it's subjective.

2098
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:49,199
Speaker 6: But I and you know.

2099
01:44:49,279 --> 01:44:50,880
Speaker 2: Ooman's one as an apologist.

2100
01:44:51,319 --> 01:44:53,199
Speaker 9: If you don't believe, you don't believe, there's nothing I

2101
01:44:53,199 --> 01:44:55,079
can do to you know, I'm just being obedient.

2102
01:44:55,079 --> 01:44:55,920
Speaker 2: Now, you could turn.

2103
01:44:56,319 --> 01:44:58,159
Speaker 9: God could deposit faith in you, but I don't believe

2104
01:44:58,199 --> 01:45:00,279
you'll believe in less time deposits faith you.

2105
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:02,600
Speaker 2: I think seems like that's his problem.

2106
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought we said yeah.

2107
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:06,720
Speaker 2: Roman says yeah, yeah, we're suppressing.

2108
01:45:06,359 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 6: With the faith.

2109
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,680
Speaker 9: And to be brutally honest, justin when you say that

2110
01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:13,399
sounds like God's problem that is actually the Christian worldview

2111
01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:18,000
is that people are lost and until God deposits faith

2112
01:45:18,039 --> 01:45:20,720
in them, but the thing is, we don't as Christians.

2113
01:45:20,319 --> 01:45:22,159
Speaker 2: Know he's not going to do We're going to be

2114
01:45:22,199 --> 01:45:23,520
called out of the darkness or not.

2115
01:45:24,399 --> 01:45:28,119
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it seems like, uh like God is uh

2116
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,399
like super interested in seeing people burn if he could

2117
01:45:31,439 --> 01:45:33,000
save every one of us, and he doesn't.

2118
01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:36,239
Speaker 2: Just sounds like he just wants people to burn. Pretty sadistic.

2119
01:45:36,279 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 9: Actually, well, I don't think I don't think so, because

2120
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:43,720
because because of Romans one says that deep down, if

2121
01:45:43,720 --> 01:45:47,159
we were honest with ourselves, that all would know that

2122
01:45:47,279 --> 01:45:49,600
he's that he exists and we would not the lie

2123
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:50,880
and that it's not his.

2124
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:52,760
Speaker 2: Wish that that that anyone should.

2125
01:45:53,359 --> 01:45:55,000
Speaker 3: But do you know, do you understand how weird that

2126
01:45:55,079 --> 01:45:59,680
is from someone who's never been a Christian to hear, Like, yeah,

2127
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:03,600
it's it's like I could understand how like if you're

2128
01:46:03,680 --> 01:46:06,880
born into Christianity and then you're like out of it

2129
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:08,760
and someone brings up Roman's one ten, there might be

2130
01:46:08,760 --> 01:46:11,319
this like residual kind of thing going on, and like

2131
01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:13,840
because it's so ingrained from a child as you was

2132
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:16,119
a child, So I feel like it'd be really hard

2133
01:46:16,119 --> 01:46:19,239
to always shake the God stuff off or the Christian

2134
01:46:19,279 --> 01:46:21,960
stuff off completely, Like it feels like you'd always revert

2135
01:46:22,039 --> 01:46:24,279
kind of back in, And anyone who's been a Christian

2136
01:46:24,279 --> 01:46:26,840
can tell me, if I'm anywhere close to the ballpark,

2137
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:29,359
this is how I think. And if that was the case,

2138
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:32,960
like like I'm the opposite, right, I've never been grown

2139
01:46:33,039 --> 01:46:34,439
up into any of this. So when see people say,

2140
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:38,079
like you're suppressing this proposition that you don't spend any

2141
01:46:38,119 --> 01:46:41,119
time thinking about, like, oh man, God's really existing, It's

2142
01:46:41,159 --> 01:46:43,640
the weirdest fucking thing. It's like it's like the ultimate

2143
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:47,079
form of gas lighting. It's like I didn't I didn't

2144
01:46:47,079 --> 01:46:48,479
believe in any of this shit. It's like if I

2145
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:51,199
came up to you and you believe in Zargonthonos and

2146
01:46:51,239 --> 01:46:53,479
you're like, what the fuck is Zargonthonos, Like you really

2147
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:56,439
suppressed Argonthonos, Like it would just be weird to you.

2148
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:59,279
You just be like, what the fuck is? What is this?

2149
01:47:00,359 --> 01:47:01,600
So I just don't understand.

2150
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 9: But I think Romans one is dealing with with the

2151
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:08,319
teleological argument though Romans.

2152
01:47:08,319 --> 01:47:11,159
Speaker 3: Romans one is just something in a book that says

2153
01:47:11,159 --> 01:47:12,800
a thing. I really could care less about it. I

2154
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:17,079
want to put like you know, it's it's.

2155
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:20,439
Speaker 9: Not it's not necessarily saying that you will know salvation

2156
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:21,479
through Jesus Christ.

2157
01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:23,600
Speaker 2: It's saying that you know there's a God. And that's

2158
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:25,399
why I look, we don't looking at it.

2159
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 3: Do you understand when I say it's there's a book

2160
01:47:27,960 --> 01:47:31,600
and it says a thing like that, that's not like,

2161
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:34,600
clearly that's a fact. It's a book. It's saying a thing.

2162
01:47:35,359 --> 01:47:38,319
We've gone nowhere else from there, right? Could you understand

2163
01:47:38,359 --> 01:47:40,479
how I'm just going, Look, you're just saying some more

2164
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:43,479
books as a thing stuff. It could never convince me.

2165
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:46,479
It's just some book has some words, says a thing.

2166
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:47,119
Speaker 2: What do you think?

2167
01:47:47,199 --> 01:47:49,039
Speaker 3: J Mike and I just go, I think the book

2168
01:47:49,079 --> 01:47:51,000
says a thing. I agree, I think it says a thing.

2169
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:53,199
But what how do I get convinced by that?

2170
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:54,600
Speaker 2: No?

2171
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:57,720
Speaker 9: I mean I don't think that you can get convinced

2172
01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:00,560
unless God opens your heart and deposit faith in you.

2173
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:02,520
Speaker 3: That's what the case sounds like. He does not want

2174
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:04,439
me to sounds like he doesn't want me to believe.

2175
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:06,720
I mean, he would know exactly what I would walk

2176
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,319
past and go like if he set up something for

2177
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:13,359
me to to be like, you know, accepting of him

2178
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:18,000
and believing him anything's any sign or anything that he

2179
01:48:18,039 --> 01:48:20,079
would do. He would know ahead of time if I'd

2180
01:48:20,119 --> 01:48:23,359
walk right by it and not notice it, right, he

2181
01:48:23,359 --> 01:48:24,159
would know that.

2182
01:48:24,079 --> 01:48:27,479
Speaker 2: He has done that for many people. That's what's what's interesting.

2183
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:29,279
Speaker 3: Okay, So but he hasn't done it for He hasn't

2184
01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:32,800
done it for me. All right, Okay, so that's not

2185
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:36,119
I don't yeah.

2186
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:35,840
Speaker 2: Ok yeah, all right.

2187
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:39,079
Speaker 9: In apologetics that that is one of the time.

2188
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:41,640
Speaker 3: It sounds like God doesn't want everybody to be believers.

2189
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:44,000
It sounds like the stuff you believe isn't true, like

2190
01:48:44,039 --> 01:48:46,880
he just wants me to burn it hell well.

2191
01:48:46,880 --> 01:48:49,640
Speaker 9: From the Christian worldview, from because because of Rome was

2192
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:51,720
when we would say that we're all we've all sinned,

2193
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:54,319
we've all fallen, and we all shake our fist to God.

2194
01:48:54,359 --> 01:48:57,359
Speaker 2: God knows the future, but we don't. We don't believe

2195
01:48:57,359 --> 01:49:00,720
in God of reality, right you? You don't want to

2196
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:03,159
believe if it's not going to If I know, I

2197
01:49:03,199 --> 01:49:05,039
had nothing to do with wanting to believe. I was

2198
01:49:05,039 --> 01:49:07,439
a christon for twenty years. I wanted to believe. I

2199
01:49:07,479 --> 01:49:10,560
just don't believe anymore. So like if I read.

2200
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:14,520
Speaker 1: From you like one of the the Vedas and it says, actually,

2201
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:19,399
all Christians do believe in the Hindu gods.

2202
01:49:19,479 --> 01:49:22,359
Speaker 2: Okay, that's an adorable claim, but it's not true.

2203
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:25,640
Speaker 3: Right, So that's a really good a really good example. Yeah,

2204
01:49:25,640 --> 01:49:27,560
that's a really good example, right, because you would just

2205
01:49:27,600 --> 01:49:28,920
look at that like, yeah, I understand this is an

2206
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:32,159
established religion that billions of people believe or millions of

2207
01:49:32,199 --> 01:49:34,279
people believe, But that does nothing for.

2208
01:49:34,279 --> 01:49:37,880
Speaker 9: Me, right, Well, I mean from a Christian worldview, we

2209
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:42,079
don't reject that there's not supernatural or demonic power in

2210
01:49:42,119 --> 01:49:43,119
other religions.

2211
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:44,880
Speaker 2: No, I didn't say anything about demons.

2212
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:48,119
Speaker 1: I said, you believe in the actual literal gods of

2213
01:49:48,199 --> 01:49:50,159
the Hindu pantheon, not demons.

2214
01:49:50,199 --> 01:49:51,199
Speaker 2: Well, we would believe that.

2215
01:49:51,159 --> 01:49:55,039
Speaker 9: Those are demonic God, I mean demons, I said God.

2216
01:49:55,439 --> 01:49:57,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's in there that you that's what you

2217
01:49:57,520 --> 01:49:59,560
you suppress and you actually believe. So yeah, that's not

2218
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:01,560
different than and if I go if I did the

2219
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:03,039
same thing with you, and I'm like no, and you're

2220
01:50:03,039 --> 01:50:04,520
like yeah, but it's yahweh, and I'm like no, But

2221
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:06,520
under my view, it wouldn't be yahweh. It would just

2222
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:09,039
be like, you know, this collective society like putting this

2223
01:50:09,119 --> 01:50:11,640
kind of fictional figure into my head and whatever. You're like, no, no, no,

2224
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:13,479
that fictional figure thinks in your head's really God and

2225
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:16,920
you really believe it. I'd be like, Okay, asshole, thanks right,

2226
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:18,199
that would be my response.

2227
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:21,239
Speaker 9: I understand that, I understand that you can make that argument,

2228
01:50:21,319 --> 01:50:24,000
and I grant you that argument. I don't granted as

2229
01:50:24,000 --> 01:50:26,319
the truth claim though, because I would say that in

2230
01:50:26,359 --> 01:50:29,800
the Christian worldview, we have the belief that the Most

2231
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:31,680
High God is the God of the Bible, and that

2232
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:34,399
he's gathering up with people. He's gathering up weed and tears,

2233
01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:37,439
and that people that are deluded were allowed to be deluded,

2234
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:39,159
and those are terrors. They'll be thrown into fire and

2235
01:50:39,199 --> 01:50:41,399
the wheat will be gathered and harvested. I mean, that's

2236
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:44,600
that's a Christian world that's an honest Christian worldview. We

2237
01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:47,119
want people to be harvested because.

2238
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:48,159
Speaker 2: We know the worldview.

2239
01:50:48,159 --> 01:50:51,079
Speaker 1: We're asking why we should should believe that it's true. Like,

2240
01:50:51,279 --> 01:50:53,039
I don't think either one of us are confused by

2241
01:50:53,039 --> 01:50:53,600
the worldview.

2242
01:50:54,399 --> 01:50:58,000
Speaker 9: Okay, Okay, Well, I would say that when you compare

2243
01:50:58,119 --> 01:51:02,600
Christianity to other religions, is that it's the only coherent

2244
01:51:03,239 --> 01:51:06,760
truth claim of a supernatural deity, that is the God

2245
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:10,000
of the Bible. I would say that that Christianity is

2246
01:51:10,039 --> 01:51:10,920
the only one that you.

2247
01:51:11,039 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 2: Not coherent nation.

2248
01:51:12,119 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 1: You already said it violates the laws of logic, so

2249
01:51:14,039 --> 01:51:15,640
it's it's already a logical out.

2250
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:18,159
Speaker 2: Of the laws of logic. I don't think they. I

2251
01:51:18,239 --> 01:51:19,399
just demonstrated how it did.

2252
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,319
Speaker 1: It violates the law of identity, right, So Jesus can't

2253
01:51:22,359 --> 01:51:25,359
be identical to God if he's distinct from God. God

2254
01:51:25,439 --> 01:51:30,039
has some like necessary characteristics. According to you, he's omniscient.

2255
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:33,239
Jesus is not omnipresident. Jesus is not.

2256
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:33,880
Speaker 3: I don't know.

2257
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:35,960
Speaker 2: I never said God was omnisci though.

2258
01:51:36,039 --> 01:51:36,520
Speaker 4: Hold on.

2259
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:40,119
Speaker 9: I believe that God knows knows the results. He can

2260
01:51:40,159 --> 01:51:42,359
see the beginning from the end. But I don't believe

2261
01:51:42,399 --> 01:51:45,399
that God necessarily knows all things. And the Bible doesn't claim.

2262
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:47,159
Speaker 2: That the Bible does.

2263
01:51:47,199 --> 01:51:50,119
Speaker 3: In First John, he sees the beginning to the end,

2264
01:51:50,159 --> 01:51:51,880
but he doesn't know all things. What does that even mean?

2265
01:51:52,159 --> 01:51:52,960
Speaker 2: Hold on? When does?

2266
01:51:53,039 --> 01:51:53,399
Speaker 3: When does?

2267
01:51:53,479 --> 01:51:55,479
Speaker 9: When does the claim? When does the Bible claim that

2268
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:56,720
God is omniscient?

2269
01:51:58,319 --> 01:52:04,199
Speaker 2: First John three twenty what's his day? Three? First it

2270
01:52:04,279 --> 01:52:05,960
says pray.

2271
01:52:07,039 --> 01:52:11,279
Speaker 1: Whenever your hearts condemn us whenever our hearts condemn us,

2272
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:14,399
for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

2273
01:52:15,399 --> 01:52:18,039
Speaker 2: The prior verse will actually give you a better context.

2274
01:52:18,039 --> 01:52:18,800
What are you're talking about?

2275
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 1: But it says, and by this we know that we

2276
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:24,159
are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before

2277
01:52:24,239 --> 01:52:27,239
him whenever our hearts condemn us, for God is greater

2278
01:52:27,279 --> 01:52:27,880
than our hearts.

2279
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:28,720
Speaker 2: He knows everything.

2280
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:31,319
Speaker 9: Yeah, but I would have to look at a verse

2281
01:52:31,359 --> 01:52:33,920
like where it says that God cannot be tempted. So

2282
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:38,920
if he cannot be tempted, he can't know what temptation is.

2283
01:52:39,119 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 2: Like you see what I'm so, let means Jesus thing God.

2284
01:52:41,720 --> 01:52:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, James says God cannot tempt nor can God be tempted.

2285
01:52:45,920 --> 01:52:47,800
Speaker 2: This means Jesus saying God. That's a good point.

2286
01:52:47,920 --> 01:52:51,359
Speaker 9: This is where the trinity would come in. So God

2287
01:52:51,640 --> 01:52:55,399
became a human being in order that he could be

2288
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,520
tempted in the most the.

2289
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:00,319
Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible says that God is not a man, the

2290
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:02,800
father can does God's nature change?

2291
01:53:05,279 --> 01:53:06,079
Speaker 2: Does God's name?

2292
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:11,279
Speaker 1: I don't know it could because if God's nature doesn't

2293
01:53:11,319 --> 01:53:14,640
include a human body, but he changes from non human

2294
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:17,359
to human. What that means is that God's nature has

2295
01:53:17,359 --> 01:53:20,760
now changed. So now you're a modalist, you're a hair tech.

2296
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:28,039
Speaker 9: Now, well, I'm just I mean, I'm not the I'm

2297
01:53:28,039 --> 01:53:30,079
not the best theologian. Like I said, I have a

2298
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:34,640
very simplistic Christian worldview. I'm okay with saying that I

2299
01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:38,640
don't know and can't explain the mysteries of the Trinity.

2300
01:53:39,159 --> 01:53:42,720
But I do believe in the Christian God as being

2301
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:44,960
the most high God, and I believe that it is

2302
01:53:45,359 --> 01:53:47,800
still the most coherent worldview in my research. And I

2303
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:52,319
only can't be my life in the application of the

2304
01:53:52,399 --> 01:53:55,960
Christian faith in my life, which has made my life better.

2305
01:53:56,640 --> 01:53:58,000
Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm sure it did.

2306
01:53:58,159 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's whether or not an improved life

2307
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:02,399
isn't meaningful to us. Like there's a lot of things

2308
01:54:02,439 --> 01:54:04,760
that can improve a person's life. It doesn't actually make

2309
01:54:04,800 --> 01:54:08,800
the metaphysical claim true. But like, if we've already demonstrated

2310
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:11,479
that the Christian worldview entails contradictions, it's not.

2311
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:13,279
Speaker 2: Really a good worldview to believe in.

2312
01:54:13,560 --> 01:54:16,039
Speaker 1: And I would add to it as well, if you

2313
01:54:16,119 --> 01:54:19,079
are actually serious about the Christian worldview, like you should

2314
01:54:19,079 --> 01:54:21,439
have read the Hebrew Bible and asked yourself, what does

2315
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:23,760
the Hebrew Bible say the Messiah is going to do?

2316
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:26,159
And the Hebrew Bible describes lots of stuff that the

2317
01:54:26,199 --> 01:54:28,479
Messiah is going to do. Jesus didn't do none of it.

2318
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:29,960
And when you look at the stuff he did do

2319
01:54:30,359 --> 01:54:33,000
not even in there. Jesus did a whole bunch of random,

2320
01:54:33,039 --> 01:54:36,039
out of context prophecies that aren't prophecies.

2321
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:39,800
Speaker 9: Right, And I mean, I understand that's that's a deconstructionist

2322
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:42,840
or an atheist worldview, but I would just say that

2323
01:54:43,079 --> 01:54:47,399
no limited knowledge of prophecy is they non fulfilled many prophecies.

2324
01:54:48,079 --> 01:54:49,920
And I mean that's going to be a faith claim.

2325
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:51,560
I mean, I take it in faith.

2326
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:53,720
Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to be an atheist to believe that.

2327
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:56,079
The Jews already believed that. The Jews believe that Jesus

2328
01:54:56,159 --> 01:54:59,039
was a false messiah who fulfilled no prophecies.

2329
01:54:59,399 --> 01:55:02,359
Speaker 2: So it's not just an as the scripture.

2330
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:05,199
Speaker 9: Says that that they that they denied that they that

2331
01:55:05,239 --> 01:55:05,800
they were the ones.

2332
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:08,439
Speaker 2: They of course they denied it because he didn't do anything.

2333
01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:11,720
Speaker 1: The guy came, he led people astray and then he

2334
01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:14,560
claimed to be a messiah, knowing full well he wasn't Messiah,

2335
01:55:14,560 --> 01:55:16,279
and then he got his hung up.

2336
01:55:16,159 --> 01:55:18,119
Speaker 2: On a cross. So he's just a he's just a

2337
01:55:18,119 --> 01:55:20,079
bloke that was out of his mind and now he's

2338
01:55:20,079 --> 01:55:20,560
warm food.

2339
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:22,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean.

2340
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:28,159
Speaker 9: So the testimony of the Christian faith is totally different

2341
01:55:28,159 --> 01:55:31,279
than that, is that he violated They said he violated

2342
01:55:31,319 --> 01:55:34,159
the Sabbath and he was performing miracles, and they were

2343
01:55:34,279 --> 01:55:37,359
jealous and they wanted to go about their religion, you know,

2344
01:55:37,439 --> 01:55:38,520
in a fair sakes.

2345
01:55:38,239 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 2: They would say that.

2346
01:55:39,319 --> 01:55:41,399
Speaker 1: So they But if I was writing the book too

2347
01:55:41,399 --> 01:55:43,119
about my superhero, I'd say that too.

2348
01:55:44,239 --> 01:55:44,439
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2349
01:55:44,479 --> 01:55:48,159
Speaker 2: I mean, well, but again, I'll leave you.

2350
01:55:48,199 --> 01:55:50,479
Speaker 1: I'll leave you with this because we were we had

2351
01:55:50,479 --> 01:55:52,000
two people I wanted to get in and one of

2352
01:55:52,039 --> 01:55:52,640
them just dropped.

2353
01:55:52,640 --> 01:55:54,199
Speaker 2: Because we're coming upon our time limit.

2354
01:55:54,880 --> 01:55:57,199
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why Jesus could not have been

2355
01:55:57,239 --> 01:55:59,680
the Messiah or anything to do with the New Covenant

2356
01:55:59,720 --> 01:56:01,960
is because it says in Jeremiah thirty one thirty one,

2357
01:56:02,359 --> 01:56:04,359
when the New Covenant comes, it's going to be tween

2358
01:56:04,439 --> 01:56:06,800
in between the House of Israel and Judah. So these

2359
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:10,039
are the Hebrews, the Israelites, and says this covenant that

2360
01:56:10,079 --> 01:56:12,079
I will make with the House of Israel. After those days,

2361
01:56:12,119 --> 01:56:14,000
says the Lord, I will put my law within them.

2362
01:56:14,039 --> 01:56:15,600
I will write it on their hearts. I will be

2363
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:17,479
their God, and they will be my people. No longer

2364
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:20,079
shall they teach one another or say to each other,

2365
01:56:20,199 --> 01:56:22,159
know the Lord, For they shall all know.

2366
01:56:22,239 --> 01:56:23,960
Speaker 2: Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says

2367
01:56:23,960 --> 01:56:24,239
the Lord.

2368
01:56:24,319 --> 01:56:28,159
Speaker 1: So, according to Jeremiah thirty one, when this new Covenant

2369
01:56:28,199 --> 01:56:31,880
era rolls around, every single person of the House of Israel,

2370
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:35,279
every Jewish person, every Hebrew that's left alive, they're going

2371
01:56:35,319 --> 01:56:36,079
to know the Lord.

2372
01:56:36,119 --> 01:56:37,600
Speaker 2: But that certainly has never happened.

2373
01:56:37,640 --> 01:56:40,239
Speaker 1: In fact, about fifty percent of worldwide Jews today don't

2374
01:56:40,479 --> 01:56:41,840
even believe in a God, So.

2375
01:56:42,119 --> 01:56:44,399
Speaker 2: This prophecy could have never come through so far.

2376
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 9: Say that's that that will be fulfilled in Christ ultimately, I.

2377
01:56:48,640 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 2: Mean, it just will never ends on. Well it wasn't

2378
01:56:51,119 --> 01:56:52,840
you read that prophecy?

2379
01:56:53,319 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 6: But it's not.

2380
01:56:54,079 --> 01:56:58,000
Speaker 2: Christianity is losing steam. People are leaving. I mean that's fine.

2381
01:56:58,079 --> 01:57:00,640
Speaker 9: I mean it's a narrow road an he's supposed to

2382
01:57:00,680 --> 01:57:03,319
lose stream. Actually, I would say deconstructionists are helping the

2383
01:57:03,359 --> 01:57:05,760
faith because they're sifting the wheat from the tears.

2384
01:57:06,000 --> 01:57:09,039
Speaker 2: Because people that certainly are they.

2385
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:11,800
Speaker 1: Were they were never saved to be that's adorable that

2386
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:13,880
you think that, But you're also wrong according to Hebrews

2387
01:57:13,960 --> 01:57:14,520
chapter four.

2388
01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:16,920
Speaker 3: But did you he also he was just about to

2389
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:20,479
say they were never saved. He was, Yeah, it's funny

2390
01:57:20,479 --> 01:57:22,159
how that. I was like after the fact, that's like

2391
01:57:22,199 --> 01:57:23,279
really easy. But yeah, well they were.

2392
01:57:23,359 --> 01:57:26,039
Speaker 2: Christians that do get saved. Now Christians do get saved.

2393
01:57:26,039 --> 01:57:26,159
Speaker 3: Now.

2394
01:57:26,279 --> 01:57:28,760
Speaker 2: I don't think that that push has actually saved, is

2395
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:33,720
my my my claim. Demonstrate that you're claved, that you're saved.

2396
01:57:33,880 --> 01:57:35,520
Speaker 3: Or claved, that sounds hot information.

2397
01:57:36,119 --> 01:57:38,359
Speaker 9: I can demonstrate by the transformation of my life, the

2398
01:57:38,359 --> 01:57:40,279
fruit that I bear. I mean, I was, well, my

2399
01:57:40,319 --> 01:57:42,600
life was transformed when I became a Christian.

2400
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:44,840
Speaker 2: And your life was transformed.

2401
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:50,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think every person that's ever been a Christian

2402
01:57:50,239 --> 01:57:52,279
would probably say that. I mean, like other they're not

2403
01:57:52,359 --> 01:57:54,640
just like, nah, I'm a Christian today. It's kind of

2404
01:57:54,680 --> 01:57:56,079
like a normal Tuesday.

2405
01:57:55,920 --> 01:57:58,239
Speaker 2: Speak to I can't speak to your experience. So here's

2406
01:57:58,239 --> 01:57:58,560
the thing.

2407
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:02,000
Speaker 9: If I turned from my faith, then I would say, yes,

2408
01:58:02,079 --> 01:58:03,800
you turned you apostasized.

2409
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:04,439
Speaker 6: I haven't.

2410
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:06,199
Speaker 2: So if you bear fruit and.

2411
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 9: You know what it says, in John it says that

2412
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:12,039
I won't lose any sheep out of my hand, that

2413
01:58:12,119 --> 01:58:14,479
I will preserve them. I give them eternal life. So

2414
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:17,159
if I were to apostize, I always says I haven't

2415
01:58:17,159 --> 01:58:18,600
lost that.

2416
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:21,520
Speaker 2: You're clear, I haven't lost any any of the sheep.

2417
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:25,000
Speaker 9: I will keep them in my hand, right, yeah, So,

2418
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,039
so I would say it when it was alive your

2419
01:58:27,079 --> 01:58:33,199
fruit and and you're transformed by the Christian faith, then

2420
01:58:33,439 --> 01:58:36,079
you will waltz your way into heaven and God will

2421
01:58:36,119 --> 01:58:36,760
preserve you.

2422
01:58:37,359 --> 01:58:41,159
Speaker 2: And well, that's not the Hebrews.

2423
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:46,159
Speaker 1: Hebrews six, this abundantly disagrees with you, right says, is

2424
01:58:46,159 --> 01:58:50,039
it impossible. It is impossible to restore again to repentance

2425
01:58:50,079 --> 01:58:52,279
those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the

2426
01:58:52,279 --> 01:58:55,560
heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and

2427
01:58:55,640 --> 01:58:57,760
have tasted the good word of God and the powers

2428
01:58:57,760 --> 01:58:59,640
of the age to come, and then have fallen away,

2429
01:58:59,720 --> 01:59:01,760
since they are crucifying the Son of God to their

2430
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:03,800
own harm and are holding them up to condemned. So

2431
01:59:04,119 --> 01:59:06,119
part of the book of Hebrews and other passages and

2432
01:59:06,159 --> 01:59:09,960
New Testament, you can in fact be like part of

2433
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:12,600
the Holy Spirit. You can participate in the kingdom and

2434
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:15,199
then you can fall away. In fact, if you couldn't

2435
01:59:15,199 --> 01:59:18,119
fall away, if become a Christian meant that you couldn't

2436
01:59:18,199 --> 01:59:20,800
change your mind. That means God is just removing your

2437
01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:23,520
free will, which is a that's like the whole thing

2438
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:25,760
Christian's lean on. Like the reason why God had to

2439
01:59:25,800 --> 01:59:27,840
do all these genocides and create hell and all this

2440
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:30,800
nonsense is because he valued free will so much. But

2441
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:33,359
like the minute you decide to believe in this sky carcass,

2442
01:59:33,359 --> 01:59:34,880
all of a sudden, he removes your free will.

2443
01:59:35,159 --> 01:59:36,840
Speaker 2: That's another direct contract.

2444
01:59:36,880 --> 01:59:39,479
Speaker 9: That's why the Bible says that those are predestined, that

2445
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:41,640
those who are called are predestined.

2446
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:44,279
Speaker 1: That sounds like that, That sounds like people going to

2447
01:59:44,319 --> 01:59:46,760
Hell is just by his crusing then and again he's

2448
01:59:46,800 --> 01:59:47,319
a sadist.

2449
01:59:47,359 --> 01:59:51,760
Speaker 9: Now again, it's he knows the intentions and the thoughts

2450
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:53,800
of your heart. So if you're not going to choose him,

2451
01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:55,920
and he knows the future, he's not going to call.

2452
01:59:56,079 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 2: He's not going to deposit faith because.

2453
01:59:57,760 --> 01:59:59,600
Speaker 1: No, but you would choose him if he called you,

2454
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:01,600
because you can't resist as will Romans nine.

2455
02:00:02,960 --> 02:00:08,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, Well, he knows in his people who has the

2456
02:00:08,760 --> 02:00:12,439
ability for him to sustain through their free will, because

2457
02:00:12,479 --> 02:00:16,439
God is able to give free will to secondary beings

2458
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:19,399
and know those who He's going to be able to

2459
02:00:19,439 --> 02:00:24,520
sustain in their free will. So free, God is sovereign.

2460
02:00:24,760 --> 02:00:26,199
God is sovereign over our free will.

2461
02:00:26,239 --> 02:00:29,199
Speaker 2: He can victually we actually send some of those powerful

2462
02:00:29,279 --> 02:00:31,319
delusions to the mask people's free will.

2463
02:00:31,319 --> 02:00:34,439
Speaker 9: According to the Bible, Yeah, because those people are not

2464
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:36,600
they would continue to run back to their sin.

2465
02:00:36,800 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 2: They would, they would aposotize.

2466
02:00:39,279 --> 02:00:43,000
Speaker 3: But you know, he doesn't say that. Again, I don't

2467
02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:43,880
think he heard what he said.

2468
02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:46,279
Speaker 2: And the Bible says that God sends a strong delusion.

2469
02:00:46,359 --> 02:00:48,359
Speaker 1: It also says in second and Sence four four that

2470
02:00:48,439 --> 02:00:51,520
God allows Satan to blind the eyes of the unbelievers.

2471
02:00:51,520 --> 02:00:54,119
Says that the God of this world has blinded the

2472
02:00:54,119 --> 02:00:57,119
minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing clearly.

2473
02:00:56,840 --> 02:01:01,000
Speaker 2: The light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ. So, like, listen,

2474
02:01:01,119 --> 02:01:03,760
if God is allowing Satan to run around to just

2475
02:01:03,840 --> 02:01:05,720
blind people to a love the Gospel, it seems like

2476
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:07,199
God doesn't really want people in heaven.

2477
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:11,079
Speaker 9: No, because he's going to call his people, He's going

2478
02:01:11,119 --> 02:01:13,199
to have the wheat from the terrors sifted.

2479
02:01:13,319 --> 02:01:15,760
Speaker 2: He does want his people in heaven.

2480
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:20,159
Speaker 3: It's a little special club that like God.

2481
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:20,880
Speaker 2: Has allowed that.

2482
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 9: And when you look at the world, which you when

2483
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:24,600
you look at what's going on with Epstein and Trump

2484
02:01:24,640 --> 02:01:27,840
and all this stuff, you see the strong delusion that's

2485
02:01:28,039 --> 02:01:31,439
the Bible is very.

2486
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:35,039
Speaker 2: These people, these people are are pedophiles about God.

2487
02:01:35,039 --> 02:01:37,479
Speaker 3: We want accountability on that front. It's a little bit

2488
02:01:37,880 --> 02:01:40,840
we're just looking for, like the accountability for.

2489
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:43,760
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what We're We're running short on time,

2490
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:47,720
so I'll make you one proposition. If you can show

2491
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:51,479
me even one Messianic prophecy from the Hebrew Bible that

2492
02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:55,239
Jesus fulfilled, I will I will admit that Jesus wasn't

2493
02:01:55,279 --> 02:01:56,119
a complete fraud.

2494
02:01:57,079 --> 02:01:58,600
Speaker 2: Well, you're not going to accept him.

2495
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:01,000
Speaker 9: But I mean, all the way back in Genesis you

2496
02:02:01,079 --> 02:02:03,880
got Psalm twenty two, Isaiah fifty three, Isaiah forty five.

2497
02:02:04,439 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 6: I mean, bick one.

2498
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 2: It's a bunch of them. Pick your I pick your

2499
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:09,960
favorite one because none of those are about Jesus. You're

2500
02:02:10,159 --> 02:02:12,439
you're not going to You're not going to accept. I mean,

2501
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:14,680
I'm going to explain to you why they're not about Jesus.

2502
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:16,920
Which one you want to go to? Well, I'm not

2503
02:02:16,960 --> 02:02:19,119
going to accept your explanator. I've already been through this

2504
02:02:19,199 --> 02:02:20,840
many times. But you I mean going. You don't have

2505
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:21,920
to accept my explanation.

2506
02:02:22,039 --> 02:02:24,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna put out on the table and the audience

2507
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:26,560
is going to figure out who's right and who's wrong.

2508
02:02:26,600 --> 02:02:28,760
Speaker 2: So which one do you want to go to? If

2509
02:02:28,760 --> 02:02:30,039
God doesn't call him? Twenty two?

2510
02:02:31,399 --> 02:02:31,600
Speaker 4: Yeah?

2511
02:02:31,600 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 2: Psalm twenty six? All right?

2512
02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:36,880
Speaker 1: What about Psalm twenty two is a prophecy at all?

2513
02:02:37,199 --> 02:02:38,960
Speaker 2: But first of all, what do you think of prophecy? Is?

2514
02:02:41,039 --> 02:02:44,960
Speaker 9: Uh, it's it's speaking of wait, do I have to

2515
02:02:45,000 --> 02:02:46,359
do a messianic prophecy?

2516
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:47,279
Speaker 2: Can I do?

2517
02:02:47,319 --> 02:02:47,479
Speaker 3: Any?

2518
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 4: Well?

2519
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:49,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus, Jesus.

2520
02:02:49,319 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 1: And if he didn't fulfill a messianic prophecy, he's not

2521
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:52,359
a messiah.

2522
02:02:52,439 --> 02:02:53,680
Speaker 2: That's what it means to be the Messiah.

2523
02:02:53,680 --> 02:02:56,079
Speaker 3: You're doing Aladdin, Aladdin prophecy?

2524
02:02:56,319 --> 02:02:56,600
Speaker 4: What you do?

2525
02:02:56,880 --> 02:02:59,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's fine, I mean, we can we can go

2526
02:02:59,680 --> 02:03:02,199
with So, I mean I take it in faith that

2527
02:03:02,279 --> 02:03:06,600
Psalm twenty two it perfectly describes the cruise and fixion

2528
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:09,279
when it says that they cast lots for my garment

2529
02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:11,319
for example, Actually.

2530
02:03:11,039 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 1: That's about me, that that, in fact, happened to me

2531
02:03:13,880 --> 02:03:14,479
two weeks ago.

2532
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:18,439
Speaker 2: In fact, I had my clothes taken off of me

2533
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:19,319
and cast it.

2534
02:03:20,119 --> 02:03:23,840
Speaker 1: They gambled for it, they cast lots for it on

2535
02:03:23,880 --> 02:03:24,399
live stream.

2536
02:03:24,439 --> 02:03:25,840
Speaker 2: You could watch it. It's obviously about me.

2537
02:03:26,039 --> 02:03:26,680
Speaker 3: It sounds hot.

2538
02:03:27,359 --> 02:03:29,800
Speaker 1: I've actually had both my hands and my feet hears too,

2539
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:31,479
So it's clearly about me.

2540
02:03:32,239 --> 02:03:35,720
Speaker 9: Because I'm just wondering if my life gets better, then

2541
02:03:36,119 --> 02:03:39,000
you know, when I became a Christian and then well, this.

2542
02:03:39,039 --> 02:03:41,359
Speaker 1: Is a divergency. We're not going to allow you to

2543
02:03:41,399 --> 02:03:43,159
divert back to my life got better. We're talking about

2544
02:03:43,159 --> 02:03:43,760
Palm twenty two.

2545
02:03:45,600 --> 02:03:47,520
Speaker 2: I've already said Psalm twenty two, go ahead.

2546
02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:49,720
Speaker 9: I'm just asking you why I should Why would you

2547
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:52,119
want somebody to deconstrul What would you be your argument

2548
02:03:52,239 --> 02:03:53,479
to deconstruct truth?

2549
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:55,640
Speaker 1: I want people to follow truth. But that's not about

2550
02:03:55,640 --> 02:03:58,880
Psalm twenty two. So Psalm twenty two is David speaking.

2551
02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:01,199
It's about his struggle. It just says so at the

2552
02:04:01,239 --> 02:04:04,760
beginning of it is a plea for deliverance to the

2553
02:04:04,800 --> 02:04:07,199
deer of the dawn, a psalm of David. So David's

2554
02:04:07,199 --> 02:04:11,920
speaking here, and he's talking about his present trouble, his struggles. Remember,

2555
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:14,560
he spent most of his life in war, and he's

2556
02:04:14,600 --> 02:04:18,000
talking about it using some very beautiful poetic language. In fact,

2557
02:04:18,039 --> 02:04:20,000
he says, the dogs are all around me, a company

2558
02:04:20,000 --> 02:04:22,880
of evildoers in circle. They bound my hands on my feet.

2559
02:04:23,239 --> 02:04:25,399
I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat

2560
02:04:25,439 --> 02:04:27,720
over me. They divide my clothes among themselves, and for

2561
02:04:27,840 --> 02:04:29,119
my clothing they cast lots.

2562
02:04:29,399 --> 02:04:31,039
Speaker 2: I have no idea why you would think this is

2563
02:04:31,079 --> 02:04:31,680
a prophecy.

2564
02:04:31,720 --> 02:04:35,560
Speaker 1: This is literally what happened in times of war, especially

2565
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:37,920
if you're painting a picture of war as though like

2566
02:04:37,960 --> 02:04:39,159
you've actually been captured.

2567
02:04:39,479 --> 02:04:40,640
Speaker 2: That's what they did to people.

2568
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:43,119
Speaker 1: They took their valuables, they took your weapons, they took

2569
02:04:43,159 --> 02:04:45,399
your clothing, they took your armor.

2570
02:04:45,640 --> 02:04:46,439
Speaker 2: It was gone.

2571
02:04:47,800 --> 02:04:50,520
Speaker 9: Well, I think it sounds like it describes the crucifixion,

2572
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:51,880
So I mean, it.

2573
02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:54,079
Speaker 2: Doesn't say anything about a crucifixion. It just says that

2574
02:04:54,119 --> 02:04:55,199
they took his clothes.

2575
02:04:55,680 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 1: It could describe anybody that lost their clothes in this manner,

2576
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:00,399
including myself, which why I brought it up.

2577
02:05:01,479 --> 02:05:04,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, but in a Christian worldview, we believe that prophecy

2578
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:06,479
was put there to scribe I'm.

2579
02:05:06,319 --> 02:05:07,840
Speaker 2: Not asking about a Christian worldview.

2580
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to show me from this text why

2581
02:05:09,800 --> 02:05:11,479
I would think it's about Jesus.

2582
02:05:11,159 --> 02:05:13,840
Speaker 9: I'm just saying that that we believe that that was

2583
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:15,319
ordained to be in New Testament.

2584
02:05:15,359 --> 02:05:15,880
Speaker 3: We know that you.

2585
02:05:15,840 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 2: Believe, No you do.

2586
02:05:17,119 --> 02:05:19,920
Speaker 1: We're asking to demonstrate why anyone else should believe that.

2587
02:05:20,439 --> 02:05:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, We're just looking for reasons that might we can

2588
02:05:22,880 --> 02:05:24,800
reflect on and then maybe go, oh shit, that guy

2589
02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:25,119
was right.

2590
02:05:25,199 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 9: Mostly, yeah, it closely relates to the events, and those

2591
02:05:29,640 --> 02:05:31,960
that are have have faith are going to interpret it

2592
02:05:32,000 --> 02:05:34,439
that way and believe, and those that don't want event

2593
02:05:34,439 --> 02:05:36,720
it's a strong delusion that we talked about and not believe,

2594
02:05:36,800 --> 02:05:37,680
so the crucifation.

2595
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:40,319
Speaker 1: So any time we find something in the Hebrew Bible

2596
02:05:40,359 --> 02:05:43,920
that sounds similar to something that happens later, it's just

2597
02:05:44,039 --> 02:05:46,800
now prophetic. I mean, if that's the case, I got

2598
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:50,319
all kinds of prophecies that I've fulfilled. Yeah, Psalm ninety

2599
02:05:50,359 --> 02:05:53,520
five eleven. In my anger, I swore, fucking I did it.

2600
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:58,279
Speaker 2: Right now, I fulfilled Psalm ninety five, awesome, Psalm one fifteen.

2601
02:05:59,319 --> 02:06:02,239
His word run swiftly. I'm a pretty fast talker.

2602
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:06,039
Speaker 3: I am blowing down at you know, it's all.

2603
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:09,840
Speaker 2: That's making go. I've ridden a donkey more than once.

2604
02:06:09,920 --> 02:06:11,279
I fulfilled zach Ryaan.

2605
02:06:11,199 --> 02:06:16,760
Speaker 1: Nine carrying the donkey Isaiah sixty six. Or when I spoke,

2606
02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:20,039
they did not listen. It's being fulfilled as we speak.

2607
02:06:20,119 --> 02:06:22,880
You just fulfilled Isaiah sixty six four. Right now as

2608
02:06:22,880 --> 02:06:25,640
we're talking fail easy. It is to fulfilled prophecies if

2609
02:06:25,680 --> 02:06:28,680
we just go to the Hebrew Bible and randomly fine

2610
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:31,079
verses that sound familiar to something that like we want

2611
02:06:31,119 --> 02:06:31,600
to draw out.

2612
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:35,199
Speaker 3: First Kings, I sent two bears at forty two children

2613
02:06:35,199 --> 02:06:41,359
one time, I'm God, kiss my ass.

2614
02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:41,920
Speaker 6: Soul.

2615
02:06:42,239 --> 02:06:44,199
Speaker 2: Push guys, so I don't we've been having a little bit.

2616
02:06:44,720 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 3: That one was an Yeah, that was a little less related.

2617
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:48,520
I just really wanted to talk about the kings.

2618
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:52,880
Speaker 2: Had to force it in there conversation. I'll call push.

2619
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:54,720
You've been you've been a good sport.

2620
02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:56,760
Speaker 1: But we we really do have to move on to

2621
02:06:56,800 --> 02:06:58,840
the next guest. We were teasing near there near the end.

2622
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:01,359
But it's just a good one, all right.

2623
02:07:01,479 --> 02:07:03,479
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, all right, I know.

2624
02:07:03,439 --> 02:07:05,800
Speaker 3: You're you're a good You're a good sport, good person

2625
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:08,279
to talk to. We appreciate it all right.

2626
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:12,199
Speaker 2: Well, now here's buddy. I just felt like a like

2627
02:07:12,239 --> 02:07:12,560
a dad.

2628
02:07:12,600 --> 02:07:15,159
Speaker 3: You were a good sport. I don't think I've ever

2629
02:07:15,199 --> 02:07:16,800
said that in my life, but the facts are wrong

2630
02:07:16,800 --> 02:07:16,960
on me.

2631
02:07:17,880 --> 02:07:20,039
Speaker 7: You'll get him next time, Bookeroo, Yeah, you get them

2632
02:07:20,039 --> 02:07:26,880
bookero a Champ. It's okay, friends, We're gonna get our

2633
02:07:27,000 --> 02:07:30,000
very last guest, Steph, and then we're gonna read our

2634
02:07:30,119 --> 02:07:30,760
super chats.

2635
02:07:30,800 --> 02:07:32,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for everybody who's send in super chats. It

2636
02:07:32,920 --> 02:07:36,199
does help to support the stream. And with that, let's

2637
02:07:36,239 --> 02:07:38,239
see Steph looks like they might be calling all the

2638
02:07:38,239 --> 02:07:40,279
way from the Great White North and is a theist

2639
02:07:40,600 --> 02:07:42,840
and wants to ask the host if they think it's

2640
02:07:42,880 --> 02:07:46,079
true that God exists. It sounds like a little bit

2641
02:07:46,119 --> 02:07:47,239
of a trap or a weird question.

2642
02:07:47,359 --> 02:07:49,600
Speaker 2: But Steff, you're on XP with Justin and Jim. How

2643
02:07:49,600 --> 02:07:49,920
you doing?

2644
02:07:51,199 --> 02:07:51,399
Speaker 5: Ah?

2645
02:07:51,479 --> 02:07:54,000
Speaker 6: Hey, too much war for my taste.

2646
02:07:54,119 --> 02:07:57,720
Speaker 10: But uh I good seeing you guys, And you're right,

2647
02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:01,800
it's most certainly a trap. My question is do you

2648
02:08:01,840 --> 02:08:05,600
think it's true that God exists?

2649
02:08:07,640 --> 02:08:11,159
Speaker 2: I mean, we're atheists, so it obviously we would say no,

2650
02:08:11,319 --> 02:08:12,800
we don't believe that God exists.

2651
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:14,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two ways they could be like, I think

2652
02:08:14,520 --> 02:08:17,439
the propositions actually false, or yeah, I don't affirm the proposition.

2653
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:21,000
So in either case, I'm not saying that the proposition

2654
02:08:21,079 --> 02:08:21,359
is true.

2655
02:08:21,399 --> 02:08:23,000
Speaker 6: Good enough, Yep, that'll do.

2656
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:27,319
Speaker 10: So it's my position, all right, Or I should say

2657
02:08:27,319 --> 02:08:32,800
it's the position that anybody that would ask or answer

2658
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:36,880
that question, save this example here where it was me

2659
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:40,239
asking the question kind of tongue in cheek, anybody that

2660
02:08:40,279 --> 02:08:43,079
would ask or answer that question hasn't yet laid their

2661
02:08:43,119 --> 02:08:48,920
minds eye on God whatsoever. Because just like a cake

2662
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:52,840
has ingredients like say, eggs, sugar, flour, a chair has

2663
02:08:53,000 --> 02:08:54,880
ingredients for legs used.

2664
02:08:54,720 --> 02:08:56,000
Speaker 6: To sit at table, et cetera.

2665
02:08:56,600 --> 02:09:01,800
Speaker 10: That were true, it's ingreedy, and when we look at.

2666
02:09:01,680 --> 02:09:05,079
Speaker 6: It is God.

2667
02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:07,439
Speaker 2: No, No, it's the Boomafoo.

2668
02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:12,159
Speaker 1: There's a there's a truth making character in the universe

2669
02:09:12,199 --> 02:09:13,119
called Za boom of food.

2670
02:09:13,159 --> 02:09:15,680
Speaker 2: The Booma food causes all truth to be truth y.

2671
02:09:16,119 --> 02:09:16,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2672
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:17,079
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2673
02:09:17,119 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 10: And the point about the there's a there is a

2674
02:09:21,079 --> 02:09:27,479
truth making being this is really it's really awkward language.

2675
02:09:27,720 --> 02:09:33,880
That further shows that there's a probably fourteen billion years

2676
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:39,039
worth of callous projection that you can't look through very well.

2677
02:09:39,119 --> 02:09:43,600
You have to talk about God through a reflective projection,

2678
02:09:44,079 --> 02:09:47,359
where all kinds of things obviously then are just you know,

2679
02:09:47,520 --> 02:09:52,000
you speaking of yourself like I think, but probably I was.

2680
02:09:52,479 --> 02:09:54,079
Speaker 2: I was just joking my friend.

2681
02:09:54,399 --> 02:09:57,359
Speaker 1: I don't believe there's a truth making entity anywhere, just

2682
02:09:57,359 --> 02:09:59,640
saying that if you believe there's a truth making entity,

2683
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,199
it could literally anything. I've no reasonablieve that it's God.

2684
02:10:02,279 --> 02:10:05,640
But I don't believe that truth is a thing that exists.

2685
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:07,880
Speaker 2: I think truth is just what we call a proposition

2686
02:10:08,319 --> 02:10:10,680
that seems to align with reality. That's all.

2687
02:10:10,960 --> 02:10:13,600
Speaker 1: There's no like transcendental truth that you can stick into

2688
02:10:13,640 --> 02:10:15,399
a bucket or anything like that.

2689
02:10:19,840 --> 02:10:20,479
Speaker 5: We can can.

2690
02:10:20,319 --> 02:10:22,680
Speaker 6: Certainly contest that as well. I've heard that.

2691
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:26,079
Speaker 10: I've heard that said a lot, you know, a subjective

2692
02:10:26,159 --> 02:10:28,840
this subjection. No, like it's it's like I say, like,

2693
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:32,680
as soon as it's time to change me five twenties

2694
02:10:32,720 --> 02:10:34,880
for one hundred, all.

2695
02:10:34,720 --> 02:10:37,439
Speaker 6: Of a sudden, all of a sudden.

2696
02:10:37,439 --> 02:10:41,199
Speaker 10: Like magic, you know, the truth you never give me.

2697
02:10:41,239 --> 02:10:42,319
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.

2698
02:10:42,159 --> 02:10:46,359
Speaker 6: It's always five, you know, like the idea the truth.

2699
02:10:46,159 --> 02:10:50,000
Speaker 1: Is an evaluative property, Like we're saying, like here's a claim.

2700
02:10:50,159 --> 02:10:54,039
The claim is I'm holding a stick of cheese right now.

2701
02:10:54,159 --> 02:10:56,640
Speaker 2: Well, Jamike can look. I'm like, oh, this motherfucker looks

2702
02:10:56,640 --> 02:10:58,520
like he's got a stick of cheese. So we would

2703
02:10:58,680 --> 02:11:02,600
say that that claim that is because hand matches reality.

2704
02:11:03,399 --> 02:11:03,720
Speaker 3: That's it.

2705
02:11:04,439 --> 02:11:05,039
Speaker 2: That's relater.

2706
02:11:08,279 --> 02:11:10,800
Speaker 10: We can then see it's true because there's some kind

2707
02:11:10,840 --> 02:11:13,359
of rational reason for confirmation, etc.

2708
02:11:14,479 --> 02:11:17,960
Speaker 6: I see you holding up the thing there. Yeah, yeah,

2709
02:11:18,359 --> 02:11:20,399
it's to me, it's an objective.

2710
02:11:19,960 --> 02:11:23,359
Speaker 10: True sex you're holding something behind you're not coming through

2711
02:11:23,439 --> 02:11:23,720
right now.

2712
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:27,199
Speaker 2: But I don't know what to mean by objective.

2713
02:11:27,319 --> 02:11:29,800
Speaker 1: I mean we agree that we would treat it as

2714
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:32,359
though it's objectively true. But like when we say that

2715
02:11:32,399 --> 02:11:35,199
something's true, as we're saying is that it seems to.

2716
02:11:35,199 --> 02:11:37,199
Speaker 2: Align with our perception of reality.

2717
02:11:37,680 --> 02:11:40,039
Speaker 1: Sometimes we think that something's true and it's not because

2718
02:11:40,079 --> 02:11:41,479
our perception is not perfect.

2719
02:11:41,520 --> 02:11:43,399
Speaker 2: Sometimes we need to run more tests.

2720
02:11:43,720 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 1: But that's all we're When something is true, we're just

2721
02:11:45,680 --> 02:11:48,319
saying it seems to align with reality. We're not saying

2722
02:11:48,399 --> 02:11:52,520
that it has the property of being true, like not

2723
02:11:52,640 --> 02:11:54,159
in an ontological status.

2724
02:11:54,199 --> 02:11:56,039
Speaker 2: At least, it's.

2725
02:11:55,800 --> 02:11:58,359
Speaker 3: True that snow is white. I'm just saying snow is white.

2726
02:11:58,640 --> 02:11:59,680
That's what I'm saying.

2727
02:11:59,880 --> 02:12:02,760
Speaker 10: Me clarify quick. Let me let me clarify quick. The

2728
02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:05,640
best definition of science, I think possible is the one

2729
02:12:05,680 --> 02:12:14,039
that goes as follows. Science is the communication between the

2730
02:12:14,119 --> 02:12:19,399
information and our knowledge. And so when we're using this

2731
02:12:19,479 --> 02:12:24,600
word true here, I think that we're talking about information

2732
02:12:25,039 --> 02:12:27,760
versus our knowledge because actual guys pointed. I mean, yeah,

2733
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:31,680
we can't really drill ahead for exanguination and you know,

2734
02:12:31,760 --> 02:12:33,720
let the demons out and be like, oh, there we

2735
02:12:33,760 --> 02:12:37,960
treated the fever. But then no, I mean knowledge changes right,

2736
02:12:38,560 --> 02:12:41,880
fair enough. But that's a big distinction between our knowledge

2737
02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:43,760
and the information.

2738
02:12:44,039 --> 02:12:45,000
Speaker 6: And that's what science is.

2739
02:12:45,079 --> 02:12:50,800
Speaker 10: It's just the communication between the information and our knowledge.

2740
02:12:51,279 --> 02:12:54,159
Speaker 6: And that point in information again is something I.

2741
02:12:54,159 --> 02:12:56,399
Speaker 1: Don't know what you mean by communication, and sorry to

2742
02:12:56,520 --> 02:12:58,920
interrupt your stuff by I think. I think sure we

2743
02:12:58,960 --> 02:13:01,760
would describe that different, Like I would say science is

2744
02:13:01,840 --> 02:13:06,199
the process that we engage in to acquire information that

2745
02:13:06,279 --> 02:13:10,319
could inform our knowledge. But I wouldn't say that, like

2746
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:14,239
the universe isn't transferring information to us like we are

2747
02:13:14,319 --> 02:13:17,319
in we're making inquery about what's around us.

2748
02:13:18,439 --> 02:13:23,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, probably the universe wouldn't be transferring information to us.

2749
02:13:24,760 --> 02:13:29,840
Speaker 6: How would I put this? Hmm, all right, So, like

2750
02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:31,600
let's say, like you're a little kid, you have a.

2751
02:13:31,479 --> 02:13:34,800
Speaker 10: Toddler, and like we know, like glowing elements are like

2752
02:13:34,920 --> 02:13:37,840
fun to look at. Wow, that's glowing orange. Nothing I've

2753
02:13:37,880 --> 02:13:40,439
ever seen is like that. If you put a toddler

2754
02:13:40,439 --> 02:13:43,560
in a room with a glowing element for probably in

2755
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:47,199
a few minutes, that kid's gonna learn quickly about you know,

2756
02:13:47,319 --> 02:13:48,199
don't touch fire.

2757
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:51,359
Speaker 6: The idea that a toddler would sit next to a

2758
02:13:51,520 --> 02:13:54,840
red hot element and never touch it is.

2759
02:13:56,479 --> 02:13:59,199
Speaker 10: I don't think that's a thing. I think that's just

2760
02:13:59,359 --> 02:14:00,800
a natural process.

2761
02:14:01,359 --> 02:14:02,319
Speaker 6: Same thing here.

2762
02:14:02,359 --> 02:14:07,479
Speaker 10: When I say that science is the communication between the

2763
02:14:07,720 --> 02:14:12,640
information and our knowledge, it's in the exact same thing

2764
02:14:12,720 --> 02:14:16,239
where it's like, yeah, universe trying to no. No, it's

2765
02:14:16,319 --> 02:14:21,079
it's far more automatic and rigid than that, like not

2766
02:14:21,159 --> 02:14:24,159
Like I don't know what that means though, mm hmm.

2767
02:14:24,880 --> 02:14:29,039
Speaker 1: Information is what we decide information is. Information is an

2768
02:14:29,039 --> 02:14:31,039
abstract concept we decided.

2769
02:14:31,039 --> 02:14:33,199
Speaker 6: We're going to no. No.

2770
02:14:33,199 --> 02:14:35,000
Speaker 1: But I do know, I don't know what it means

2771
02:14:35,119 --> 02:14:37,560
for the universe to be communicating information.

2772
02:14:39,399 --> 02:14:42,800
Speaker 6: No, not the universe. Science is the process.

2773
02:14:43,439 --> 02:14:49,840
Speaker 1: Science the process of gathering information through observation and experimentation.

2774
02:14:51,119 --> 02:14:57,680
Speaker 10: Science is the communication between the information and our knowledge.

2775
02:14:57,840 --> 02:14:58,880
Speaker 6: So we're like, hey, how.

2776
02:14:59,079 --> 02:15:02,319
Speaker 1: That's not what science where like, hey, is a process

2777
02:15:02,479 --> 02:15:06,199
of inquiry and testing an hypothesis.

2778
02:15:06,920 --> 02:15:09,399
Speaker 2: Communicating is certainly something you could do.

2779
02:15:09,600 --> 02:15:12,520
Speaker 1: But like, if there's a guy that's alone in the woods,

2780
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:15,479
he can do the scientific method without communicating anything.

2781
02:15:15,760 --> 02:15:16,880
Speaker 2: You can just do that thing.

2782
02:15:17,479 --> 02:15:20,439
Speaker 1: So it's it's not relevant, Like the word communication does

2783
02:15:20,479 --> 02:15:22,079
nothing for your definition of science.

2784
02:15:27,399 --> 02:15:31,119
Speaker 3: I'm like confusing, like where we're going, but I mean.

2785
02:15:31,039 --> 02:15:32,079
Speaker 10: It's it's all connected.

2786
02:15:32,119 --> 02:15:32,800
Speaker 6: I mean, like if you.

2787
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:35,800
Speaker 10: Want to see, like make a plane and it doesn't work,

2788
02:15:36,720 --> 02:15:38,359
what happens next?

2789
02:15:38,600 --> 02:15:40,479
Speaker 2: You're like, where did they figure out why it doesn't work?

2790
02:15:41,319 --> 02:15:42,319
Speaker 6: Why didn't Okay?

2791
02:15:42,359 --> 02:15:44,000
Speaker 10: And then you're like, okay, long, you know what, Hey,

2792
02:15:44,039 --> 02:15:46,479
maybe this maybe that you try this, you try that. Hey,

2793
02:15:46,479 --> 02:15:48,359
when we try that, we noticed this and then this

2794
02:15:48,399 --> 02:15:50,119
and that or if you put this together with that

2795
02:15:50,199 --> 02:15:52,279
and then oh, hey, last night I had a dream

2796
02:15:52,319 --> 02:15:54,520
and then now oh and next thing you know, you're

2797
02:15:54,560 --> 02:15:57,680
off the cliff and you're actually flying instead of falling

2798
02:15:57,720 --> 02:16:00,640
straight to the bottom. What's happened there? There's been a

2799
02:16:00,680 --> 02:16:04,760
communication between what would work and what.

2800
02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:11,800
Speaker 1: Has not been a communication there's been a discovery. Communication

2801
02:16:11,920 --> 02:16:16,199
requires a communicator. The plane's not a communicator. So this

2802
02:16:16,279 --> 02:16:18,039
is this is the problem. I think you're just misusing

2803
02:16:18,039 --> 02:16:20,840
the word communication and maybe like whatever book you found

2804
02:16:20,840 --> 02:16:23,079
this talking point in, it sounded really cool, but the

2805
02:16:23,159 --> 02:16:25,760
way you're applying it isn't isn't working for us.

2806
02:16:26,199 --> 02:16:28,600
Speaker 6: No, I didn't find talking points and books I think.

2807
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:30,199
I think, then okay, I mean that's enough. That' where

2808
02:16:30,239 --> 02:16:31,520
the hiccup is. That's easy enough to see.

2809
02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:35,440
Speaker 10: We would say that cold weather creates ice out of water.

2810
02:16:35,600 --> 02:16:38,479
We would say that it was cold weather created ice

2811
02:16:38,840 --> 02:16:42,200
the water, then cold the cold weather created dice. You

2812
02:16:42,239 --> 02:16:44,719
can see it that way, in that kind of a way.

2813
02:16:46,040 --> 02:16:47,559
Speaker 6: I'm gonna kind of a way, I would think.

2814
02:16:48,280 --> 02:16:52,239
Speaker 3: So again, I'm gonna try it because I'm rapidly losing

2815
02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:54,639
you and I'm not trying to be rude, but I

2816
02:16:54,719 --> 02:16:57,319
just don't know where we're going, and we're running up

2817
02:16:57,360 --> 02:17:00,159
on a little bit of the time, Like I don't all.

2818
02:17:00,120 --> 02:17:01,959
Speaker 2: Right, let's talk about actually, all right, so I want.

2819
02:17:01,879 --> 02:17:03,280
Speaker 3: To get to like, yeah, I just want to get

2820
02:17:03,319 --> 02:17:04,239
to like a point.

2821
02:17:04,040 --> 02:17:11,000
Speaker 10: Problem, sure, problem, problem of complex complexity, right, what's the problem.

2822
02:17:11,159 --> 02:17:13,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know there was a problem.

2823
02:17:13,760 --> 02:17:16,559
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, I mean it's it's not a thing that

2824
02:17:17,239 --> 02:17:19,440
was not died a while ago, right, Like it's it's

2825
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:22,520
if God made you, then what made your god? Or

2826
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:23,559
who or what made your God?

2827
02:17:23,639 --> 02:17:28,879
Speaker 3: Right, I'm not sure what you're I.

2828
02:17:28,799 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 2: Don't know what you're communicating, my bud.

2829
02:17:32,159 --> 02:17:34,639
Speaker 10: Okay, So problem clip complexity goes like this. You can't

2830
02:17:34,639 --> 02:17:38,079
really postulate a god because then you have to explain

2831
02:17:38,120 --> 02:17:39,360
where that god came from.

2832
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:42,520
Speaker 3: Right, No, you can just say it's necessary that that

2833
02:17:42,559 --> 02:17:46,280
God exists, just like I say it's necessary that there's

2834
02:17:46,319 --> 02:17:48,399
an initial state of the universe, and someone goes, well,

2835
02:17:48,399 --> 02:17:51,520
you need a prior moment before that. It's like, well no,

2836
02:17:51,680 --> 02:17:54,000
I could just be someone that denies an infinite past

2837
02:17:54,120 --> 02:17:57,520
universe and be like an atheist, and then someone say, oh,

2838
02:17:57,600 --> 02:18:00,200
well you need where did that initial state come from?

2839
02:18:00,239 --> 02:18:03,239
I could just say it's necessary it had to exist.

2840
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:07,799
So someone can't say that whether it's true it is

2841
02:18:07,799 --> 02:18:10,000
a separate question. But someone can say that there's no

2842
02:18:10,040 --> 02:18:10,920
problem saying that.

2843
02:18:11,760 --> 02:18:11,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2844
02:18:11,959 --> 02:18:14,879
Speaker 10: I'm concerned with truth more and more than maybe what

2845
02:18:15,000 --> 02:18:15,639
people say.

2846
02:18:16,159 --> 02:18:17,159
Speaker 6: My question would be.

2847
02:18:17,440 --> 02:18:19,680
Speaker 3: I'm like a deflationist when it comes to truth, Like

2848
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:23,079
I'm not very like well versed in the truth aspect

2849
02:18:23,079 --> 02:18:25,239
of philosophy as much as like I would like to be,

2850
02:18:25,399 --> 02:18:28,959
But it's not as interesting to me like just to

2851
02:18:29,040 --> 02:18:33,639
talk about like the philosophy of truth right now, because

2852
02:18:33,719 --> 02:18:35,399
that's just not with the formula.

2853
02:18:37,479 --> 02:18:39,600
Speaker 10: Truth is God, I mean yeah, but the God that

2854
02:18:39,639 --> 02:18:40,760
you're denying.

2855
02:18:40,399 --> 02:18:42,120
Speaker 6: Is truths itself. That's that's the point.

2856
02:18:42,239 --> 02:18:45,200
Speaker 2: The truth is why are you denying zaboomafoo?

2857
02:18:46,840 --> 02:18:49,399
Speaker 10: I'm sorry, I again, I don't get that point.

2858
02:18:50,280 --> 02:18:53,760
Speaker 1: The boomo foo is an entity in outer space that

2859
02:18:54,319 --> 02:18:56,920
has always existed and just causes truth to be true.

2860
02:18:56,920 --> 02:18:57,440
Speaker 2: That's all.

2861
02:19:00,280 --> 02:19:03,079
Speaker 6: Causes truth to be true? Is that? Is that a

2862
02:19:03,120 --> 02:19:06,600
micromanaged process? That year you're talking about that.

2863
02:19:06,719 --> 02:19:09,200
Speaker 3: He's responsible for there being truth in the world.

2864
02:19:09,639 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 10: Yep, So it's it's a micromanaged process, right is bo

2865
02:19:14,360 --> 02:19:16,440
No just stands from his nature.

2866
02:19:17,920 --> 02:19:19,360
Speaker 6: Stands from his because he's truth.

2867
02:19:19,479 --> 02:19:24,559
Speaker 10: So then that's why this truth could see his truth Yep. Yeah,

2868
02:19:24,600 --> 02:19:26,559
that's God. Yeah, so far a lot.

2869
02:19:26,520 --> 02:19:29,239
Speaker 1: Of boom boom of woo is not a god. He

2870
02:19:29,280 --> 02:19:31,959
didn't create anything. All he does is is make sure

2871
02:19:31,959 --> 02:19:32,799
that truth is truth.

2872
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:38,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like a cosmicing tom that lived, you know,

2873
02:19:38,239 --> 02:19:41,479
alongside the universe, but wasn't responsible for creating it, and

2874
02:19:41,520 --> 02:19:43,799
he just keeps everything in order, like a librarian of

2875
02:19:43,840 --> 02:19:49,479
the universe. Right, no contradiction, And a being that's always

2876
02:19:49,479 --> 02:19:52,879
existed but not responsible for like finds itself in a

2877
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:56,000
world like a universe next to it that's also also existed,

2878
02:19:56,040 --> 02:19:58,520
and he's just maintaining truth. I don't see a contradiction.

2879
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:00,639
Seemed perfectly like a someone could have.

2880
02:20:03,040 --> 02:20:06,879
Speaker 10: Existing and true are kind of synonymous. There would be

2881
02:20:06,879 --> 02:20:08,040
no aside there.

2882
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:10,760
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, that's not the case.

2883
02:20:11,840 --> 02:20:14,719
Speaker 1: Existence and truth are describing entirely separate ideas.

2884
02:20:16,680 --> 02:20:19,360
Speaker 6: Show me anything in existence without truth.

2885
02:20:21,520 --> 02:20:25,879
Speaker 1: So again they're describing different ideas. So the truth is

2886
02:20:25,920 --> 02:20:29,959
the idea that that a proposition comports the reality. Existence

2887
02:20:30,120 --> 02:20:33,159
is just saying something has existence.

2888
02:20:33,159 --> 02:20:34,680
Speaker 2: It's just a property of being.

2889
02:20:35,159 --> 02:20:36,559
Speaker 6: Anything exists without truth.

2890
02:20:38,200 --> 02:20:41,719
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not saying that you need to get rid

2891
02:20:41,719 --> 02:20:43,680
of one of the other, or like you can have

2892
02:20:43,760 --> 02:20:44,559
one without the other.

2893
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:46,120
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is they're different.

2894
02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:48,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, look, you can you can have like a

2895
02:20:48,719 --> 02:20:51,799
tree exists and then someone goes, but is that true

2896
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:54,159
that that tree at that park exists and it's like, well, yeah,

2897
02:20:54,159 --> 02:20:55,680
it is true that there is a tree at the

2898
02:20:55,680 --> 02:20:56,799
park and that exists.

2899
02:20:57,840 --> 02:21:01,120
Speaker 10: Okay, so like different like uh, scheme is H tool,

2900
02:21:01,159 --> 02:21:03,799
ice is H tool, and water's HE tool.

2901
02:21:03,879 --> 02:21:08,040
Speaker 6: They're H tool, but they're all different like that.

2902
02:21:08,239 --> 02:21:10,840
Speaker 2: That's not at all what we said. Nope, No, what

2903
02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:11,799
we're saying is that.

2904
02:21:11,719 --> 02:21:17,079
Speaker 1: Like truth, it doesn't exist. Truth isn't a thing that exists.

2905
02:21:18,319 --> 02:21:20,040
We already went over this place. I feel like we're

2906
02:21:20,040 --> 02:21:20,360
going in.

2907
02:21:20,280 --> 02:21:23,920
Speaker 3: Certain things and we can describe them as like it

2908
02:21:24,120 --> 02:21:25,920
being true that they exist or true that.

2909
02:21:25,879 --> 02:21:26,399
Speaker 6: They have leave.

2910
02:21:26,440 --> 02:21:29,559
Speaker 10: I say, truth doesn't exist until I try to change you.

2911
02:21:29,559 --> 02:21:31,479
You know, five twenties, four one hundred and all of

2912
02:21:31,479 --> 02:21:34,200
a sudden, I don't get six or seven or eight twenties.

2913
02:21:34,479 --> 02:21:36,680
You give me five twenties at free time.

2914
02:21:36,799 --> 02:21:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we know how to do math. That's this

2915
02:21:40,520 --> 02:21:41,239
is called math.

2916
02:21:42,079 --> 02:21:42,559
Speaker 6: What's math?

2917
02:21:42,600 --> 02:21:45,799
Speaker 1: Disc Again, truth isn't something that exists. Truth is something

2918
02:21:45,840 --> 02:21:47,319
that we describe.

2919
02:21:47,559 --> 02:21:47,719
Speaker 2: Right.

2920
02:21:47,760 --> 02:21:52,239
Speaker 1: If I said that I'm holding my hand up right now, listen,

2921
02:21:52,319 --> 02:21:54,360
it's either true or it's not that I'm holding my

2922
02:21:54,399 --> 02:21:54,760
hand up.

2923
02:21:54,760 --> 02:21:56,559
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that truth exists.

2924
02:21:56,719 --> 02:22:00,680
Speaker 1: It's just a way we describe the process of voute evaluation.

2925
02:22:01,079 --> 02:22:05,040
Speaker 2: That's like saying untruthfulness exists. Do you think untruthfulness exists?

2926
02:22:06,040 --> 02:22:07,680
Speaker 6: That's a very tricky question.

2927
02:22:08,120 --> 02:22:11,920
Speaker 10: It's a very tricky well not my worldview, but for

2928
02:22:12,120 --> 02:22:13,360
intens and purposes.

2929
02:22:13,520 --> 02:22:15,840
Speaker 6: No, but it shouldn't have.

2930
02:22:15,799 --> 02:22:19,120
Speaker 10: An effect then, but we see that nothingness has effect,

2931
02:22:19,760 --> 02:22:20,000
so it.

2932
02:22:20,559 --> 02:22:23,879
Speaker 2: Okay, So do you do you think false exists?

2933
02:22:25,559 --> 02:22:28,159
Speaker 6: Yeah? I guess, exact same answer. Exact same answer.

2934
02:22:28,239 --> 02:22:30,879
Speaker 2: Okay, So do you think true and false exists? Gotcha?

2935
02:22:31,280 --> 02:22:32,799
So again, we're going to.

2936
02:22:32,840 --> 02:22:33,440
Speaker 4: Give you the true.

2937
02:22:33,520 --> 02:22:37,440
Speaker 10: Yes, truth and true depart and parcel with existence itself.

2938
02:22:37,799 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 2: False, the truth exists, but falsity doesn't exist.

2939
02:22:41,600 --> 02:22:44,239
Speaker 6: False. Yeah, false has effect, But does it exist in

2940
02:22:44,280 --> 02:22:45,319
the same way truth exist?

2941
02:22:45,399 --> 02:22:45,440
Speaker 5: No?

2942
02:22:45,479 --> 02:22:46,159
Speaker 6: Absolutely not.

2943
02:22:46,680 --> 02:22:49,239
Speaker 1: Why like you can see why why would one exist

2944
02:22:49,399 --> 02:22:50,520
not the other in your world view?

2945
02:22:50,719 --> 02:22:54,600
Speaker 10: Okay, you simply take the uh right, we have space

2946
02:22:54,680 --> 02:22:55,959
launch recently, take a rocket?

2947
02:22:56,040 --> 02:22:56,239
Speaker 6: Right?

2948
02:22:57,000 --> 02:23:00,200
Speaker 10: If we've been observing two plus three pos before, yeah,

2949
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:03,719
and not positing five in the place.

2950
02:23:03,440 --> 02:23:07,280
Speaker 6: Of what is two plus two equalism? Hold? Talk about this?

2951
02:23:08,159 --> 02:23:11,120
Do you think you got to hear me? She's the

2952
02:23:11,159 --> 02:23:13,079
thing two? Also, I haven't you're not.

2953
02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:13,879
Speaker 2: Answering the question.

2954
02:23:13,920 --> 02:23:16,319
Speaker 3: You're not so it's getting frustrating. This might be even easier.

2955
02:23:16,319 --> 02:23:18,399
Do you think that there's an entity called running?

2956
02:23:21,079 --> 02:23:21,799
Speaker 6: An entity?

2957
02:23:22,360 --> 02:23:24,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's like a thing we talk about. I went running.

2958
02:23:24,799 --> 02:23:27,559
Do you think there's a thing called running that exists

2959
02:23:27,559 --> 02:23:28,319
in the world.

2960
02:23:32,600 --> 02:23:33,879
Speaker 6: When somebody is running?

2961
02:23:34,120 --> 02:23:37,040
Speaker 3: And I didn't say when somebody's I didn't say about

2962
02:23:37,079 --> 02:23:40,440
performance of somebody doing the act. I'm saying of like

2963
02:23:40,520 --> 02:23:43,200
moving their legs and exerting force on the ground that

2964
02:23:43,239 --> 02:23:45,639
we could describe as running. I'm asking, is there an

2965
02:23:45,760 --> 02:23:51,559
entity called running in the world? Is there something? Is

2966
02:23:51,879 --> 02:23:53,479
there something that exists called running?

2967
02:23:55,280 --> 02:23:55,479
Speaker 5: Yeah?

2968
02:23:55,479 --> 02:23:57,000
Speaker 6: I think that's when people are running.

2969
02:23:57,479 --> 02:23:59,280
Speaker 3: I think you're just so confused on this. There's not

2970
02:23:59,319 --> 02:24:02,399
a thing called running for people that move their legs

2971
02:24:02,399 --> 02:24:05,200
on the ground and exert force on pop and they

2972
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:07,760
take their foot off, and we describe it as running.

2973
02:24:07,920 --> 02:24:13,840
There's not I can't get the run, No, friend, No,

2974
02:24:14,239 --> 02:24:16,120
hang on, are you talking about? This is very simple

2975
02:24:16,159 --> 02:24:16,760
to understand.

2976
02:24:18,600 --> 02:24:19,719
Speaker 6: Here's why. Here's why.

2977
02:24:19,920 --> 02:24:23,120
Speaker 2: Because friends, I'm not to interrupt you.

2978
02:24:23,239 --> 02:24:25,520
Speaker 1: I have an eight o'clock appointment that I have to

2979
02:24:25,520 --> 02:24:29,440
cut this short for, so I can't keep this conversation rolling.

2980
02:24:30,239 --> 02:24:34,440
Speaker 3: No worries, I'm I'm a empty stomach, so gives me

2981
02:24:34,440 --> 02:24:35,159
time to get some freez.

2982
02:24:35,760 --> 02:24:37,399
Speaker 10: Let me call back one time next time.

2983
02:24:37,440 --> 02:24:39,799
Speaker 1: I come on, let me come back and call us

2984
02:24:39,879 --> 02:24:42,239
whenever you want. I've got to I've got to shut

2985
02:24:42,239 --> 02:24:46,159
her down and get over to another another program. But

2986
02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:48,559
thank you for calling in and we'll talk to you

2987
02:24:48,600 --> 02:24:54,120
again soon, Willow Dragon our first super chat. That's my

2988
02:24:54,200 --> 02:24:58,079
boy right there, Stephi Phillo Dragon, thank you for sending

2989
02:24:58,120 --> 02:25:01,120
our first super chat tonight ten hours super because Mike

2990
02:25:01,159 --> 02:25:04,120
and Justin equals MJ of counter apologetic.

2991
02:25:04,200 --> 02:25:04,760
Speaker 2: Let's fucking go.

2992
02:25:05,120 --> 02:25:08,719
Speaker 1: Thank you Phil a Dragon, and I'm gonna make sure

2993
02:25:08,719 --> 02:25:11,639
I get this one right hard tip for a lot.

2994
02:25:12,000 --> 02:25:16,040
Thank you for the twenty yen super chat and also

2995
02:25:16,120 --> 02:25:18,680
an additional I think twenty yen super chat.

2996
02:25:18,760 --> 02:25:20,159
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that. Friends.

2997
02:25:20,360 --> 02:25:23,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's awesome. That's really cool. I think that's

2998
02:25:23,479 --> 02:25:24,840
what it was, really okay.

2999
02:25:24,959 --> 02:25:25,319
Speaker 4: I don't know.

3000
02:25:25,680 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 3: Whenever I would read the super chats and have the currency,

3001
02:25:28,440 --> 02:25:30,639
I'd be like sweat and bullets, like, oh, I'm gonna

3002
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:36,120
look really dumb not knowing different currencies here, so I'm

3003
02:25:36,120 --> 02:25:38,680
gonna show my americanness like very quickly.

3004
02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:41,479
Speaker 2: And sorry. We have to.

3005
02:25:41,600 --> 02:25:43,840
Speaker 1: We have to cut it short directly at eight o'clock.

3006
02:25:43,879 --> 02:25:45,920
I kind of lost track of time, Ja, Mike, I

3007
02:25:45,959 --> 02:25:48,600
was having so much fun chat with you tonight. Can't

3008
02:25:48,600 --> 02:25:51,959
wait to do it again, and I thought we got

3009
02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:55,559
into some really good conversations. Actually it's a shame that

3010
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:57,600
we didn't have more time, but we'll do it again

3011
02:25:57,639 --> 02:25:58,079
next week.

3012
02:25:58,120 --> 02:26:01,440
Speaker 2: Friends. We also want to thank our backup host Jamie

3013
02:26:02,159 --> 02:26:04,079
the Blind Life. Thank you so much, my friend.

3014
02:26:05,799 --> 02:26:07,559
Speaker 8: Not to use time, but the whole show just said

3015
02:26:07,600 --> 02:26:10,479
it to me, like if if forty is the power

3016
02:26:10,479 --> 02:26:13,559
of x red apple trees fall in the forests there

3017
02:26:13,600 --> 02:26:16,600
to experience counting them, does God killit?

3018
02:26:16,719 --> 02:26:19,159
Speaker 6: Squirrels? Anyway?

3019
02:26:19,479 --> 02:26:23,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think those and the callers listen don't like

3020
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:24,719
it down Like I don't want someone to feel like

3021
02:26:24,760 --> 02:26:26,920
down on themselves when we talk about the colors. But

3022
02:26:27,520 --> 02:26:29,840
because they're all really cool, like nice guys like you

3023
02:26:29,879 --> 02:26:33,239
know I had, you know, I I had no problem

3024
02:26:33,239 --> 02:26:35,639
with them. But it's just we don't agree with the reasons,

3025
02:26:35,639 --> 02:26:37,440
and some of them we're scratching our head a lot

3026
02:26:37,440 --> 02:26:37,920
in this show.

3027
02:26:37,959 --> 02:26:40,040
Speaker 8: I'll say that we both did an excellent job and

3028
02:26:40,559 --> 02:26:43,559
we shouldn't keep justin he's a man in demand.

3029
02:26:45,719 --> 02:26:48,399
Speaker 1: Well, apparently I'm supposed to be somewhere directly at eight o'clock,

3030
02:26:48,399 --> 02:26:50,520
which I was aware of, but I had a reminder

3031
02:26:50,559 --> 02:26:50,959
sent to me.

3032
02:26:51,000 --> 02:26:52,319
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I guess I better go.

3033
02:26:52,559 --> 02:26:55,840
Speaker 3: No worries. Well, yeah, that's all. That's all good. We

3034
02:26:55,840 --> 02:26:57,680
were at the last caller we went on. We went

3035
02:26:57,719 --> 02:27:00,760
about an hour over. I think, so pretty Yeah, thanks

3036
02:27:00,799 --> 02:27:01,559
for doing pretty well.

3037
02:27:02,440 --> 02:27:03,079
Speaker 2: We had a good time.

3038
02:27:03,159 --> 02:27:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was happy with it. It was that one time

3039
02:27:04,879 --> 02:27:07,159
I could like spend the time over, which was nice

3040
02:27:07,200 --> 02:27:10,239
and so well.

3041
02:27:10,239 --> 02:27:11,959
Speaker 2: Friends, thank you for joining us.

3042
02:27:12,079 --> 02:27:15,239
Speaker 1: We'll be here, same place, same time, four thirty pm

3043
02:27:15,360 --> 02:27:18,639
Central Standard time, and make sure if you are having

3044
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:21,840
inquiries about volunteering for the ACA, go to volunteer at

3045
02:27:21,879 --> 02:27:23,280
Atheistcommunity dot org.

3046
02:27:23,799 --> 02:27:27,000
Speaker 2: Love to see you to get involved. Thank you so much, friends,

3047
02:27:27,559 --> 02:27:28,159
We love you.

3048
02:27:29,879 --> 02:27:31,799
Speaker 1: Alight.

3049
02:27:30,319 --> 02:27:41,120
Speaker 2: Way to start already, y'all stop listening the bullshit every.

3050
02:27:41,440 --> 02:27:45,440
Speaker 3: Around you, guys, day of y'all.

3051
02:27:46,639 --> 02:27:47,840
Speaker 9: Welcome back.

3052
02:27:49,639 --> 02:27:55,120
Speaker 5: Ellen Welthyn love y'all.

3053
02:28:14,360 --> 02:28:17,680
Speaker 11: Watch Talkie Than live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit

3054
02:28:17,719 --> 02:28:20,639
tiny dot c c slash y T t H and

3055
02:28:20,719 --> 02:28:23,159
call into the show at five one two nine nine

3056
02:28:23,280 --> 02:28:25,719
one nine two four two, or connect to the show

3057
02:28:25,760 --> 02:28:28,600
online at tiny dot c c slash call th

3058
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:38,920
Speaker 2: H The Three