Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 2: This is part two of our discussion with Andrew Goldman,
Award winning journalist and the host of the NBC news
podcast Dead Certain the Martha Moxley murders. As this is
part two, real important that you listen to part one.
Speaker 4: Which just ran a few days Who Fell.
Speaker 2: I think the conversation will make more sense if you
listen to part one, and then part two sounds logical.
Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind over Murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 5: We're joined today by journalist and podcaster Andrew Goldman, here
to talk about his podcast Dead Certain The Martha Moxley Murder. Andrew,
thank you for joining us.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's my great pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: To be able to get to the point where you
could create a podcast, you obviously had to have Michael
and his brother Stephen on board. Did that take convincing
on your part or were they actually eager to go
ahead and talk on the record. This is the first
time Michael spoke on the record about it, correct.
Speaker 6: I think it's the first time he's ever I mean,
I don't think he ever did off the record interviews.
I mean, the great irony about Michael is that nobody
had heard his voice. I mean, people who followed the
case associate Michael Skaigel with his arraignment when he was
arrested in two thousand and two, and when they did
his perp walk, he was in two thousand and two,
close to three hundred pounds large. He wore an outfit
that people thought looked like he was wearing an ascot.
It happened not to be an ascot, but there was
this image of him looking like kind of the rich
guy from Gilligan's Island, what's his name? There was just
an image of him looking fat, like, perfectly capable of
killing a fifteen year old, sort of smug, and nobody
ever heard his voice, so nobody got to hear his story.
The interesting thing is that Michael, when you meet him,
one of the things you tell yourself is even those
defense attorneys made almost every mistake in the book, he
did make one good choice, which was to not put
Michael on the stand because he's just one of these
people who says too much. Is just somebody who is unfiltered,
and Michael was a guy who, for the duration of
this case wanted to talk. And Michael, having you know,
decent legal counsel, said the absolute last thing you can
do while this case is still looming is open your mouth.
So Michael was unable to speak until so I was
talking to the scanholes for years and years and years
while Michael was still walking around with what he called
his Lindsay Lohan anklet. He was freed from prison, but
he was awaiting a decision to see if the State
of Connecticut was going to retry him, which they ultimately
decided not to do in the year twenty twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: But I was waiting around.
Speaker 6: Michael was dying to talk, but I was I had
to wait around until Michael could talk, which was only
after the state basically declared that they were not going
to retry him, not because he wasn't guilty. Their stated
reason was he is he is officially an exonery. However,
the State of Connecticut deprived him of the perception he's
actually innocent because they said, too many of the witnesses
have died. So even though we think we had the
right guy, we don't think that we could secure a conviction.
Speaker 2: And sort of a lame, you know, slap in the
face to Michael Skeagell. We still think you're guilty as hell,
but we're we can't prove it absolutely.
Speaker 6: That's kind of what to me, that's kind of the
real tragedy of this case is that Michael has even
after the conviction was vacant, even after he won his
habeas corpus, there is still a perception and I think,
I don't know if I've moved the needle at all,
but there was still a perception that Michael Skeekeell, Michael
Skeaekele skated because of a technicality that Michael Sneakle is
free only because of a technicality. Jeffrey Tubin, who I
think is you know he's featured in the podcast. Jeffrey
Tubin had a hashtag on Twitter called talking about how
affendit he was that Michael was free and he called
her rich people justice And I think it's anything. But actually,
when I think about my career in journalism, I've done
a lot of stuff that not that I haven't been
proud of, but a lot of stuff that I you know,
it certainly didn't make my mother proud while she was alive.
She said, Oh, you do a lot of puff She said, oh,
there's my son that does a lot of puff pieces
on celebrities. I did a lot of like I mean,
it used to be called fish wrap. But I haven't
found that many important stories. But I think that this
is important for the one reason that I think that
it's possible that finally, this man who is in his
sixties now might be looked at by a lot more
people as not a kid who at fifteen killed his neighbor.
Speaker 2: I will admit, though that I'm still one of those
people that carry around the perception of Michael Skaikle as
being guilty of killing Martha Moxley, and that these perceptions
are probably fomed decades ago that he did get away
evade responsibility for the Moxley murder because of rich people.
Speaker 6: You just you've been very busy. I mean, Kristin, I
know has listened to the podcast, Kristen, I mean I
went into this. What I tried to do with this
podcast was to bring people along in my journey, which
was I was convinced at the very beginning, when I
first shook his hand that when I should this guy's hand,
I was I was feeling the same hand that wielded
this golf club and beat this woman today over and
over to death, right, And that not only beat her
to death, beat her so hard that the golf club broke,
and then stabbed her in the throat with a broken
shaft so hard that it went in one side of
her throat and came out the other. And so that
was my first when I first met Michael and when
I first was getting involved in the project, that was
the perception that I have, and I think my intention
with the podcast was to bring people along in that
journey that I have. I don't know, Kristen if it
was successful, but I mean I tried to kind of
dismantle the case piece by piece you did.
Speaker 5: I think you were very successful with that. And I
mean I remember I called Bill after listening to three
episodes and I said, hey, Man, we gotta get Andrew
Goldman on the podcast. He's doing this amazing show called
Dead Certain about Martha Moxley. And he goes, Michael step
who killed Martha Moxley? Yeah, exactly, I said, No, we didn't.
The conversation we had, yeah, I said, now we didn't,
and I can tell you why. I laid blaid out
what I'd heard in three episodes and Bill was just like, no,
he still did it.
Speaker 6: I'm like, yeah, well, I know you've had very bid
I mean, Bill, you've this has been a very exciting time.
Speaker 4: But I think maybe I would love for you.
Speaker 6: I don't I don't know if you listen to podcasts
when you're not making them, but I would love for
you to maybe listen to it and think and see
if it's.
Speaker 2: Changes and see if it takes me on the same journey.
That would be an interesting experiment. Yeah, we have we
have had a lot of other things going on.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, no, I mean, I know, yeah, I certainly
do not imagine that you would have time in this
in this I'd love to talk to you about your experience,
by the way, but maybe maybe that'll be for for
off air or or another time, but.
Speaker 5: Or for season two of certain Yes, well, no, well
that's yours.
Speaker 4: You got to finish that book bill. Yeah, yeah, well, yes,
I do, no pressure.
Speaker 6: Or anything, but I mean, it's really it's an amazing
it's an amazing story, and it's a story that you
and Kristen have talked about it. I mean, I've listened
to some of the episodes and they've been so fascinating.
This just does not seem like probably this is probably
something that you verbalized as wishful thinking for many years
that this day was going to come. But did you
really believe that it was going to happen?
Speaker 4: I actually did? You did? I actually did.
Speaker 2: Despite the FBI's massive list of screw ups in the
Colonial Parkway murders, which seem to have gotten in the way,
you know, almost forty years is a long time to
wait for answers. Yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot more
exploration of this case that is warranted. And of course
we still have two double homicides in the Colonial Parkway
murders that are not yet solved, so we have a
lot more work to do.
Speaker 4: Well thought.
Speaker 6: I listened with great interest because I thought that I
thought that seeing the mistakes of the Greenwich Police Department,
I thought, well, god, they should have immediately called in
the FBI. And I thought, well, got maybe the FBI
I wouldn't have been able to solve it.
Speaker 5: One thing I really did enjoy, you know, listening to
I think with one ear, you know, always cocked to
the phone, which is where I listened to my podcast
was the episode you were alluding to earlier about polygraphers,
because we did have issues with polygraphy in our case,
and so I was listening to that and going, oh,
this this is interesting. And I figured that even if
I couldn't get Bill to listen to the whole entire podcast,
I at least could get him to listen to the
one on polygraphy.
Speaker 6: Did you had there been people who would who would
who had failed polygraphs, who.
Speaker 5: Well, our serial killer, our serial killer passed a polygraph.
Speaker 2: And then the second polygraph was inconclusive. I tracked down
the polygrapher, now retired, was one of the top people
at the FBI. Even he admitted to me privately, Bill,
we should have never let that guy go, meaning Wilmer,
who is now tied to six homicides, including my sister
and her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski. So even the FBI admits
they shouldn't have let the guy go. They had him
in custody in nineteen eighty eight, and they let him go,
and then he continued killing people literally right under their noses.
Speaker 6: Did they have Were they just lacking evidence? I mean
there were well, you know people, certainly people in the
history of this case. I mean, as I said Tommy
Skakel for the first part of the case, they wanted
to arrest and you know, the cops went as far
as actually, you know, writing up a whole memo of
why they wanted to arrest them. And the prosecutor said,
this case is unwinnable. Is that kind of what was
going on with your guy?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I want to be fair, I bend
over backwards. I swear, you know, the state of the
art for forensic evidence in nineteen eighty six, when Kathy
and Becky were murdered and the Colonial Parkway Murders series began.
The state of the art was radically different back then.
You know, DNA hadn't even really come out of the lab,
and so there's a lot of challenges that were presented
gotten the way of seeing this investigation move forward. But
there were also some just unbelievable missed opportunities and I
mean discarded evidence. They burned my sister and Rebecca Wadowski's rape,
kids's medical waste eight years after they were murdered. They
leaked crime scene photos. They had Wilmer in custody in
eighty eight and let him go.
Speaker 4: And then the.
Speaker 2: Weird thing is I could see how that could happen
in nineteen eighty eight, But then they don't ever seem
to revisit Alan Wade Wilmer and his brother Keith Wilmer,
who's also a suspect in other unsolved murders. They don't
ever seem to circle back on those guys. That's the
part that I find so disturbing. Gee, do you think
this had anything to do in this case? I mean,
it's very clear when you go through the police reports
in the scaicall case is that there was a great
belief in what a lot of them called the box.
And as soon as they got somebody in the seat
and they passed to Polly, that was the end. That
was the end of the road for them. This convinced
them that there was no use in trying to find
any other evidence because basically they were given the answer
by the polygraph. And I don't know, dude, was this
you think the case at all with Wilmer? The fact
that he packed the polly made them. I think it
had a lot to do with it. And yet, in retrospect,
as soon as we heard two plus years ago now
that they had identified a suspect via DNA and they
said it was a waterman from Lancaster County, Virginia, I
knew exactly who we were talking about because we talked
about this with my late father in nineteen eighty eight,
when the FBI agents at the time were rock solid
certainty had identified the right killer. And they had. But unfortunately,
as we see that happens in so many cases. You know,
you can see in the Martha Moxley murder. How you know,
they went down a number of different rabbit holes insisting, oh,
it's got to be. It's got to be Thomas. No,
it can't be Thomas. It's got to be it's got
to be Michael. No, it's got to be the tutor.
You know. You can see how there's a lot of
false starts in any long standing murder investigation, and it
is difficult to prove absolutely, and things are radically different
in twenty twenty six than they would have been in
nineteen seventy five or even two thousand and two.
Speaker 6: There were cops on the Grunwish Police Force who carried
with them. I think the trauma of not being able
to prosecute Tommy Skical for the crime that you know,
they would tell reporters that, oh, we know who did it,
we just can't prove it. M h boy have I
heard that a few times? Yeah, Tommy. They were convinced
because of certain circumstantial evidence that Tommy did it. There were,
as we discussed in the podcast, there were certain issues
with their theory. But Tommy was the last person to
see to be seen with Martha the night she was killed,
and Michael skakell As was reported many times in many
police reports that the authorities were convinced that Martha Moxley
had been killed about nine fifty or ten pm on
October thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, and they wrote over and
over in police reports it has been established that Michael
Skakell at that hour was ten miles away watching Monty
Python's flying circus at his cousin's house. And they did
some interesting kind of acrobatics in the trial to suggest
that perhaps he hadn't gone, or that perhaps he could
have killed Martha Moxley.
Speaker 4: After But Tommy was.
Speaker 6: Tommy was, I got to say, a pretty good suspect,
and he became an even better suspect in the late
nineties when he admitted things that he hadn't actually told
the cops in the seventies about his contact with Martha
that night. And the great kind of tragedy. One of
the great tragedies of this case is that Michael had
such a terrible defense attorne that jurors never heard. I
think if jurors had heard just the two cases against
the brothers, Michael and Tommy, Michael and Tommy Skekell, and
were given a choice and not just you know, Michael's
attorney never never uttered the words reasonable doubt. But Mike,
if Michael's attorney never chose to even introduce Tommy as
the third party culprit ac culpability suspect. Nobody heard that
Michael's own brother was the last person to be seen
with Martha. Nobody ever heard that Tommy Skekell in an
interview after nineteen seventy five, saying that he had left
Martha at nine thirty.
Speaker 4: Before Martha's body was found.
Speaker 6: There was a phone call to the Scahle house from
the Moxleys being like, Martha never came home, can you
ask Tommy? And Tommy said, oh, I left Martha at
nine thirty at the back of the house and the
last thing I saw was her walking towards her house.
Speaker 4: And he stuck with that for twenty twenty years.
Speaker 6: So he sat down with an investigator who got him
to admit, oh, actually we stayed together after nine thirty,
and we were together for another twenty minutes, which would
put with Martha about right. And he also said that
he had attempted a sexual assignation with her, which she
initially had blown him off, that perhaps he had tried
to go too far with her. So there was in
terms of you know, I'm not saying that Tommy Skagel
is the is Martha Moxley's murder. I'm saying if jurors
were given a choice to choose a murder between Michael
and his brother Tommy, knowing that one of them was
across town when the murder was when the murder happened,
and the other one actually admitted to having a partially
unsuccessful sexual assignation with a girl who told him to
cut it out, I think the jurors probably would have
decided that Tommy was a more likely suspect.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors.
Speaker 4: We're back here at mindover Murder.
Speaker 5: I think you ever got into it in the podcast.
How do Michael and Stephen deal with their relationship with
their brother now? I mean, do they have a relationship
with Tommy?
Speaker 4: They're stranged? I think that.
Speaker 6: I mean, this is kind of one of the meta
narratives of the podcast that was sort of difficult to navigate,
and it was hard to kind of very specifically say.
And I didn't know if I had the responsibility ever
to say this, which was, you know, Stephen, because Stephen
was the one Stephen is is I think when you
think of the term like brothers, keeper is sort of
Michael's keepers. Yes, and Stephen is very responsible, even though
he's much younger than Michael. Steven is the one that
tells Michael what to do. Michael lives in Stephen's house,
and Stephen is the one who, you know, in a
lot of ways, assisted me with a lot of research
and knows, interestingly enough, a hell of a lot more
about the case than the guy who was actually convicted
of the crime. Michael knows virtually nothing about the case.
It was never a conversation that we had, but I
think that you know, Stephen's motivation in a lot of
ways was to finally show the public that his brother
Michael was innocent of the crime, which I came to believe.
The difficulty of it was, if you're trying to is
it the family name you're trying to save, because I
think that I don't think that we're necessarily going to
do the same thing for your brother Tommy, right, And
is this something that we want to Is this going
to be problematic if now, all of a sudden we
have two brothers who are suspected of the crime. Again,
I have no idea. I've talked to a lot of
people who know as much about the case as I do,
and they believe that Tommy Skaple absolutely didn't do it.
A lot of the people in bell Haven, especially who
knew Tommy, say that they didn't believe that Tommy did it.
But you know, when I think about who killed Martha Maxley,
I have them kind of in tears of most likely
the least likely, and Michael is in I find him
in the least likely category. Sure, Tommy, I believe, is
in the most likely category.
Speaker 5: I definitely was intrigued by the teenagers from out of
town angle that we heard that for me, those were
in the more likely a category.
Speaker 6: Really torn on that because this was the issue that
I had with Bobby Bobby Kennedy, which is that Bobby,
Bobby is absolutely convinced that he assault the case, that
it was these guys that you know, this was information
that had come to him that the authorities wouldn't listen to.
And after he wrote a very long piece in I
think I think it was in two thousand and three,
right after Michael had been convicted, Bobby wrote probably an
eight or ten thousand word piece in the Atlantic monthly
about why Ken Littleton, the tutor, was a far more
likely suspect. And so the article got out, and there
were people who had been trying to tell the authorities
that they had the wrong guy, that it wasn't Michael Skeekell,
but it also wasn't Ken Lyttleton, it wasn't the tutor,
that it was these people that nobody had ever heard of,
and the authorities had no interest. I mean, they were
sort of hurtling towards this conviction of Michael Skeger. The
last thing I wanted to do was to bother with
investigating this new lead, a compelling lead it turned out.
But yeah, without question, Bobby I think was more convinced
of these kids guilt than I was. And I think
Bobby was more willing to write in his book that
he felt. I think he said at one point, I
think these guys are are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don't know if I said this in these exact words,
but I was just sort of like, you realize what
happened to your cousin, the rush to judgment on your cousin,
You really want to say that these guys should be
convicted without a trial, Yeah, so I had major So
that's something. There were certain things in that book, and
that's why I always say, you know, I liked working
with Bobby, but that's Bobby's book, and that's Bobby's opinion.
Speaker 4: Yeah so you thought, Kristen, did you? What did you think?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 5: I definitely can see where Tommy would have been the
most likely. The teenagers from out of town also seemed
pretty likely as well. But the kind of the talk
that they were given about oh where, you know, we're
going to go out and take what we want, caveman style.
That's teenage boys being teenage boys. I hear it all
day long. I really feel like, probably Tommy Skable seems
like the better suspects, but I also don't want to
throw anything out there that might leave me culpable or no,
of course, no slander or anything else.
Speaker 6: But the thing that actually makes this case both so
interesting and so difficult is the original sin of this case,
which was such a botched investigation. Yes, that basically, and
the reason I think I didn't want to come down
particularly hard on any particular suspect was I feel like
we have about fifteen percent of a view of what
actually happened. In the fact so many leads were ignored
at the very beginning. I mean, I find her boyfriend
to be particularly fascinating.
Speaker 5: Yes, that too, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6: Yeah, again, virtually erased from the narrative of the market
you would read. I don't think he may have been.
He may have been mentioned once in Mark Furman's book.
I think Len Levitt never used his last name, Luca.
Peter's Luca. She had a boyfriend who, it's very clear
from Martha's nineteen seventy five journals, is both jealous and
depressed and perhaps not right. And Peter's Luca is a
guy who had, unlike many of the other people, had
a pretty substantial criminal record after in the years after,
and he died of a drug overdose in his I
think late forties. But Peter was somebody who the authorities.
I think they interviewed him. They may have interviewed him
once on Halloween with a bunch of other kids, a
really perfunctory interview. But then they interviewed him with his mother,
and there's no indication that he separated. That they separated
Peter from his mother, and Peter's mother gave him an
alibi from six pm on October thirtieth to noon the
following day, which if you have a teenager, I have
teenage boys. I know that if I get fifteen minutes
of FaceTime with my teenage boy during the day, that
that's a lot, right, And she basically she said, I
saw him. We watched the Late movie, you know, we
watched the movie from nine to eleven together. My daughter
called from college at one am, and then I saw
Peter again. And I thought to myself, this alibi is
either the mother knowing that the police would be interested
in Peter, and her knowing that Peter hadn't done it,
and her constructing an alibi that would basically cover all
this time, hour for hours for hours and potentially for
Peter having to or her actually covering for her son
one of the two, right.
Speaker 4: Because I didn't.
Speaker 6: I don't know if Peter's luka had anything to do
with her death. I do not for a second believe
her believe his alibi, and I do not for a
second believe the reason that he gave to a writer
in the mid nineties for why he didn't go out
to see Martha that night, which was this was a big,
strapping kid of sixteen or seven. I think he was sixteen,
but peters Aluka told a writer in the mid nineties
that his mother said, you should go see your girlfriend.
You should go to Bellhaven. Take the car and go
to bell Haven. And Peter said, that night I heard
that the trees scratching on the windows, and for the
first time in my life, I was scared, and I
decided it wasn't going to go across town.
Speaker 2: Really nope, not buying it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, not buying it. Wasn't buying it at all. You know,
memory memories play tricks on people. I mean, I think
that I think that having having your girlfriend murdered, I
think that there are a lot of people who talked
about that night and said things that I'm not necessarily
im entirely convinced happened, including Michael Skiegele's tree story, which
I don't know if you want to talk about or not.
Speaker 5: But maybe maybe No, that's I think we saved that
one for your pod gap.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, yes, I didn't.
Speaker 5: Wait, well, we don't want to give all the good
material away.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, okay, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5: If you want to know the tree story, tune into
Dead Certain the Martha Masks.
Speaker 4: I really hope.
Speaker 6: So, I mean, I think that I hope that I'm
I'm I hope that some of your some of your
listeners will listen.
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of it. Well, I'm going to make
an effort myself. As we stare to a close. What's
next for you? Have you decided?
Speaker 4: I thought about it. I might. I'm fifty three years old.
I think my industry. My industry is the print.
Speaker 6: I'll write probably a magazine story every two years, and
every year I go into the accountant it gets sort
of sadder and sadder slipping my ten ninety nines over
the table. I would love to do another podcast. Maybe
I'll open a bar. I've thought sometimes I look at
bartenders and I think, well, that's kind of an interesting job.
Speaker 4: I would love another story. I don't I don't have
ten years.
Speaker 6: I don't know if I honestly I don't have the
time to do another scalholl story, but I'd like to.
I mean, I've been so flattered that people have, you know,
complimented me on the storytelling, and I'd like to tell
more stories. So I'd like to do another podcast. I
just don't have an idea at the moment. So if
anybody has anybody has a great idea.
Speaker 5: I'm saying we need to do chapiquitic.
Speaker 4: I'm on board. I'm easily reached.
Speaker 6: I answer all of my anybody who wants to get
me on instae Grammar, It's Andrew Goldman Rights. And if
anybody has any ideas, I would love to hear them
of something unsolved. I really would love to dig into
another case. Or it doesn't even have to be a crime,
just a great yarn. I'm gonna come up with a
whole list.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, what if I stole your what if I stole
your partner? Oh, that would hurt There's enough of me
to go around. That would hurt my feelings. But I
at the same time, I'm not going to stand in
Kristen's way. Now, Kristen's got PLNT Now, I mean, I
can tell she's got a lot of energy. She can teach,
she can she can do, she can work, work with
you Monday through Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'll get Tuesday and Thursday.
Speaker 4: There you go, There we go. We can make it happen.
See Kristin, you're even more pretty and popular. There, there
we go, There we go.
Speaker 5: Well, the podcast is Jed certain the Martha Moxley Murder
from Andrew Goldman and Andrew where can everybody find it?
Speaker 4: Wherever you find your podcast?
Speaker 6: I mean, I think that NBC News Studios is put
up a website where so if you google Dead Certainty NBC,
you'll go to their podcast. You can go out to Spotify,
you can go to Apple, and if you like it,
I would love if you could leave a review, because
we were kind of sort of I was kind of
surprised at the venom of some of the early reviews.
Speaker 4: Really, yes, oh, yoh, yeah, yeah. This is what I've
told Bill.
Speaker 5: I don't read our reviews.
Speaker 6: Bill all the times, and people told me, don't read
the comments, and of course the first thing I do
is I read the comments.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so.
Speaker 5: Don't don't read the comments, don't read the reviews. It's
a wonderful podcast. I will vouch for that. Thank you,
and so for our listeners. For our listeners who like
my taste in books and my taste in podcasts like
this one as well. It is wonderful. It is a
great listen, and it's a great story that maybe you
haven't heard of before, or at least not the way
you think you've heard it, Andrew, thank you for joining
us today.
Speaker 4: We love reading here. Please have me back.
Speaker 6: I obviously I could talk about this for seven hours,
but I know you don't want.
Speaker 4: To hear of it. But I'm always happy to come. Bill.
Speaker 6: I'm very happy for all the developments. It's really it's
got to be something for you. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of
mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. Please
do check on dead certain and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
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