1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,679 Speaker 2: This is part two of our discussion with Andrew Goldman, 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,719 Award winning journalist and the host of the NBC news 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:55,119 podcast Dead Certain the Martha Moxley murders. As this is 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,359 part two, real important that you listen to part one. 18 00:00:58,359 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 4: Which just ran a few days Who Fell. 19 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:03,039 Speaker 2: I think the conversation will make more sense if you 20 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:05,959 listen to part one, and then part two sounds logical. 21 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind over Murder. 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 23 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 5: We're joined today by journalist and podcaster Andrew Goldman, here 24 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,200 to talk about his podcast Dead Certain The Martha Moxley Murder. Andrew, 25 00:01:20,239 --> 00:01:21,239 thank you for joining us. 26 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 4: Oh, it's my great pleasure. Thank you for having me. 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 5: To be able to get to the point where you 28 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,959 could create a podcast, you obviously had to have Michael 29 00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:35,319 and his brother Stephen on board. Did that take convincing 30 00:01:35,519 --> 00:01:38,519 on your part or were they actually eager to go 31 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,239 ahead and talk on the record. This is the first 32 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,159 time Michael spoke on the record about it, correct. 33 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,079 Speaker 6: I think it's the first time he's ever I mean, 34 00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:48,040 I don't think he ever did off the record interviews. 35 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:50,760 I mean, the great irony about Michael is that nobody 36 00:01:50,799 --> 00:01:52,480 had heard his voice. I mean, people who followed the 37 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,280 case associate Michael Skaigel with his arraignment when he was 38 00:01:56,359 --> 00:01:58,480 arrested in two thousand and two, and when they did 39 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,159 his perp walk, he was in two thousand and two, 40 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:05,079 close to three hundred pounds large. He wore an outfit 41 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,240 that people thought looked like he was wearing an ascot. 42 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,919 It happened not to be an ascot, but there was 43 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,960 this image of him looking like kind of the rich 44 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,360 guy from Gilligan's Island, what's his name? There was just 45 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,879 an image of him looking fat, like, perfectly capable of 46 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,159 killing a fifteen year old, sort of smug, and nobody 47 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:26,159 ever heard his voice, so nobody got to hear his story. 48 00:02:26,199 --> 00:02:29,759 The interesting thing is that Michael, when you meet him, 49 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:33,199 one of the things you tell yourself is even those 50 00:02:33,199 --> 00:02:36,879 defense attorneys made almost every mistake in the book, he 51 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,919 did make one good choice, which was to not put 52 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,840 Michael on the stand because he's just one of these 53 00:02:41,879 --> 00:02:46,080 people who says too much. Is just somebody who is unfiltered, 54 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:49,479 and Michael was a guy who, for the duration of 55 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,400 this case wanted to talk. And Michael, having you know, 56 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,800 decent legal counsel, said the absolute last thing you can 57 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,439 do while this case is still looming is open your mouth. 58 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,120 So Michael was unable to speak until so I was 59 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:07,879 talking to the scanholes for years and years and years 60 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:10,439 while Michael was still walking around with what he called 61 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:15,039 his Lindsay Lohan anklet. He was freed from prison, but 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,599 he was awaiting a decision to see if the State 63 00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:20,120 of Connecticut was going to retry him, which they ultimately 64 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,240 decided not to do in the year twenty twenty twenty. 65 00:03:23,879 --> 00:03:25,199 Speaker 4: But I was waiting around. 66 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,319 Speaker 6: Michael was dying to talk, but I was I had 67 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,280 to wait around until Michael could talk, which was only 68 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,479 after the state basically declared that they were not going 69 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,560 to retry him, not because he wasn't guilty. Their stated 70 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:41,840 reason was he is he is officially an exonery. However, 71 00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:46,039 the State of Connecticut deprived him of the perception he's 72 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,360 actually innocent because they said, too many of the witnesses 73 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,120 have died. So even though we think we had the 74 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:54,800 right guy, we don't think that we could secure a conviction. 75 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:59,039 Speaker 2: And sort of a lame, you know, slap in the 76 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,960 face to Michael Skeagell. We still think you're guilty as hell, 77 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:07,400 but we're we can't prove it absolutely. 78 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 6: That's kind of what to me, that's kind of the 79 00:04:10,879 --> 00:04:14,800 real tragedy of this case is that Michael has even 80 00:04:14,919 --> 00:04:18,120 after the conviction was vacant, even after he won his 81 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,360 habeas corpus, there is still a perception and I think, 82 00:04:21,639 --> 00:04:23,199 I don't know if I've moved the needle at all, 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,720 but there was still a perception that Michael Skeekeell, Michael 84 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,480 Skeaekele skated because of a technicality that Michael Sneakle is 85 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:33,160 free only because of a technicality. Jeffrey Tubin, who I 86 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,279 think is you know he's featured in the podcast. Jeffrey 87 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:41,199 Tubin had a hashtag on Twitter called talking about how 88 00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:43,319 affendit he was that Michael was free and he called 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,439 her rich people justice And I think it's anything. But actually, 90 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,319 when I think about my career in journalism, I've done 91 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,040 a lot of stuff that not that I haven't been 92 00:04:54,079 --> 00:04:56,360 proud of, but a lot of stuff that I you know, 93 00:04:57,439 --> 00:04:59,639 it certainly didn't make my mother proud while she was alive. 94 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,199 She said, Oh, you do a lot of puff She said, oh, 95 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:04,920 there's my son that does a lot of puff pieces 96 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,439 on celebrities. I did a lot of like I mean, 97 00:05:06,439 --> 00:05:08,759 it used to be called fish wrap. But I haven't 98 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:11,600 found that many important stories. But I think that this 99 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,920 is important for the one reason that I think that 100 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,759 it's possible that finally, this man who is in his 101 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,000 sixties now might be looked at by a lot more 102 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,079 people as not a kid who at fifteen killed his neighbor. 103 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:26,959 Speaker 2: I will admit, though that I'm still one of those 104 00:05:26,959 --> 00:05:32,279 people that carry around the perception of Michael Skaikle as 105 00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:37,160 being guilty of killing Martha Moxley, and that these perceptions 106 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:41,360 are probably fomed decades ago that he did get away 107 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,720 evade responsibility for the Moxley murder because of rich people. 108 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 6: You just you've been very busy. I mean, Kristin, I 109 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,079 know has listened to the podcast, Kristen, I mean I 110 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,120 went into this. What I tried to do with this 111 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,720 podcast was to bring people along in my journey, which 112 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,959 was I was convinced at the very beginning, when I 113 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,839 first shook his hand that when I should this guy's hand, 114 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:03,800 I was I was feeling the same hand that wielded 115 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:07,439 this golf club and beat this woman today over and 116 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,680 over to death, right, And that not only beat her 117 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,800 to death, beat her so hard that the golf club broke, 118 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,959 and then stabbed her in the throat with a broken 119 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,959 shaft so hard that it went in one side of 120 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:19,519 her throat and came out the other. And so that 121 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,759 was my first when I first met Michael and when 122 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,279 I first was getting involved in the project, that was 123 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:27,519 the perception that I have, and I think my intention 124 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,879 with the podcast was to bring people along in that 125 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:32,560 journey that I have. I don't know, Kristen if it 126 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,879 was successful, but I mean I tried to kind of 127 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:38,040 dismantle the case piece by piece you did. 128 00:06:38,079 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 5: I think you were very successful with that. And I 129 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,199 mean I remember I called Bill after listening to three 130 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,839 episodes and I said, hey, Man, we gotta get Andrew 131 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:49,240 Goldman on the podcast. He's doing this amazing show called 132 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,680 Dead Certain about Martha Moxley. And he goes, Michael step 133 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,319 who killed Martha Moxley? Yeah, exactly, I said, No, we didn't. 134 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,160 The conversation we had, yeah, I said, now we didn't, 135 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:01,319 and I can tell you why. I laid blaid out 136 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,240 what I'd heard in three episodes and Bill was just like, no, 137 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:04,959 he still did it. 138 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 6: I'm like, yeah, well, I know you've had very bid 139 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:11,120 I mean, Bill, you've this has been a very exciting time. 140 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,079 Speaker 4: But I think maybe I would love for you. 141 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:15,199 Speaker 6: I don't I don't know if you listen to podcasts 142 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:16,680 when you're not making them, but I would love for 143 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,600 you to maybe listen to it and think and see 144 00:07:18,639 --> 00:07:19,000 if it's. 145 00:07:19,279 --> 00:07:21,759 Speaker 2: Changes and see if it takes me on the same journey. 146 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:24,399 That would be an interesting experiment. Yeah, we have we 147 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,199 have had a lot of other things going on. 148 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:29,399 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, no, I mean, I know, yeah, I certainly 149 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,759 do not imagine that you would have time in this 150 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:34,240 in this I'd love to talk to you about your experience, 151 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,319 by the way, but maybe maybe that'll be for for 152 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,720 off air or or another time, but. 153 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 5: Or for season two of certain Yes, well, no, well 154 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:42,399 that's yours. 155 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,399 Speaker 4: You got to finish that book bill. Yeah, yeah, well, yes, 156 00:07:47,519 --> 00:07:49,519 I do, no pressure. 157 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 6: Or anything, but I mean, it's really it's an amazing 158 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,920 it's an amazing story, and it's a story that you 159 00:07:53,959 --> 00:07:55,480 and Kristen have talked about it. I mean, I've listened 160 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,319 to some of the episodes and they've been so fascinating. 161 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:00,720 This just does not seem like probably this is probably 162 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,560 something that you verbalized as wishful thinking for many years 163 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,279 that this day was going to come. But did you 164 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:08,120 really believe that it was going to happen? 165 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 4: I actually did? You did? I actually did. 166 00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: Despite the FBI's massive list of screw ups in the 167 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,720 Colonial Parkway murders, which seem to have gotten in the way, 168 00:08:19,639 --> 00:08:21,519 you know, almost forty years is a long time to 169 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,000 wait for answers. Yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot more 170 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,519 exploration of this case that is warranted. And of course 171 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:32,320 we still have two double homicides in the Colonial Parkway 172 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:35,279 murders that are not yet solved, so we have a 173 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:36,120 lot more work to do. 174 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 4: Well thought. 175 00:08:38,279 --> 00:08:40,759 Speaker 6: I listened with great interest because I thought that I 176 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:44,320 thought that seeing the mistakes of the Greenwich Police Department, 177 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:46,840 I thought, well, god, they should have immediately called in 178 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:48,759 the FBI. And I thought, well, got maybe the FBI 179 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:50,919 I wouldn't have been able to solve it. 180 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 5: One thing I really did enjoy, you know, listening to 181 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,840 I think with one ear, you know, always cocked to 182 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,799 the phone, which is where I listened to my podcast 183 00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:05,039 was the episode you were alluding to earlier about polygraphers, 184 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:08,759 because we did have issues with polygraphy in our case, 185 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,600 and so I was listening to that and going, oh, 186 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,039 this this is interesting. And I figured that even if 187 00:09:15,039 --> 00:09:17,679 I couldn't get Bill to listen to the whole entire podcast, 188 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,279 I at least could get him to listen to the 189 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:20,360 one on polygraphy. 190 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 6: Did you had there been people who would who would 191 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,600 who had failed polygraphs, who. 192 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:30,279 Speaker 5: Well, our serial killer, our serial killer passed a polygraph. 193 00:09:29,159 --> 00:09:34,279 Speaker 2: And then the second polygraph was inconclusive. I tracked down 194 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:37,399 the polygrapher, now retired, was one of the top people 195 00:09:37,399 --> 00:09:42,200 at the FBI. Even he admitted to me privately, Bill, 196 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:45,799 we should have never let that guy go, meaning Wilmer, 197 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,480 who is now tied to six homicides, including my sister 198 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:55,879 and her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski. So even the FBI admits 199 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,399 they shouldn't have let the guy go. They had him 200 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,919 in custody in nineteen eighty eight, and they let him go, 201 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,279 and then he continued killing people literally right under their noses. 202 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 6: Did they have Were they just lacking evidence? I mean 203 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,559 there were well, you know people, certainly people in the 204 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,240 history of this case. I mean, as I said Tommy 205 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,799 Skakel for the first part of the case, they wanted 206 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:19,120 to arrest and you know, the cops went as far 207 00:10:19,159 --> 00:10:21,679 as actually, you know, writing up a whole memo of 208 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,799 why they wanted to arrest them. And the prosecutor said, 209 00:10:23,799 --> 00:10:25,519 this case is unwinnable. Is that kind of what was 210 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:26,799 going on with your guy? 211 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,039 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I want to be fair, I bend 212 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,639 over backwards. I swear, you know, the state of the 213 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:39,519 art for forensic evidence in nineteen eighty six, when Kathy 214 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,960 and Becky were murdered and the Colonial Parkway Murders series began. 215 00:10:44,519 --> 00:10:47,559 The state of the art was radically different back then. 216 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,200 You know, DNA hadn't even really come out of the lab, 217 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,720 and so there's a lot of challenges that were presented 218 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,639 gotten the way of seeing this investigation move forward. But 219 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:05,440 there were also some just unbelievable missed opportunities and I 220 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,200 mean discarded evidence. They burned my sister and Rebecca Wadowski's rape, 221 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:14,600 kids's medical waste eight years after they were murdered. They 222 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,399 leaked crime scene photos. They had Wilmer in custody in 223 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:20,759 eighty eight and let him go. 224 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:21,799 Speaker 4: And then the. 225 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,759 Speaker 2: Weird thing is I could see how that could happen 226 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:26,759 in nineteen eighty eight, But then they don't ever seem 227 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,320 to revisit Alan Wade Wilmer and his brother Keith Wilmer, 228 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,679 who's also a suspect in other unsolved murders. They don't 229 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,639 ever seem to circle back on those guys. That's the 230 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,799 part that I find so disturbing. Gee, do you think 231 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,159 this had anything to do in this case? I mean, 232 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,240 it's very clear when you go through the police reports 233 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,519 in the scaicall case is that there was a great 234 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,159 belief in what a lot of them called the box. 235 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,080 And as soon as they got somebody in the seat 236 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,840 and they passed to Polly, that was the end. That 237 00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:03,399 was the end of the road for them. This convinced 238 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,039 them that there was no use in trying to find 239 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,440 any other evidence because basically they were given the answer 240 00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:12,039 by the polygraph. And I don't know, dude, was this 241 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,799 you think the case at all with Wilmer? The fact 242 00:12:13,799 --> 00:12:16,879 that he packed the polly made them. I think it 243 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,679 had a lot to do with it. And yet, in retrospect, 244 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:24,240 as soon as we heard two plus years ago now 245 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:29,159 that they had identified a suspect via DNA and they 246 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,840 said it was a waterman from Lancaster County, Virginia, I 247 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,440 knew exactly who we were talking about because we talked 248 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,279 about this with my late father in nineteen eighty eight, 249 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,279 when the FBI agents at the time were rock solid 250 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:50,799 certainty had identified the right killer. And they had. But unfortunately, 251 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,519 as we see that happens in so many cases. You know, 252 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,840 you can see in the Martha Moxley murder. How you know, 253 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,559 they went down a number of different rabbit holes insisting, oh, 254 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,159 it's got to be. It's got to be Thomas. No, 255 00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:09,720 it can't be Thomas. It's got to be it's got 256 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:12,039 to be Michael. No, it's got to be the tutor. 257 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,200 You know. You can see how there's a lot of 258 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,639 false starts in any long standing murder investigation, and it 259 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:24,879 is difficult to prove absolutely, and things are radically different 260 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,559 in twenty twenty six than they would have been in 261 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:29,840 nineteen seventy five or even two thousand and two. 262 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 6: There were cops on the Grunwish Police Force who carried 263 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,440 with them. I think the trauma of not being able 264 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,360 to prosecute Tommy Skical for the crime that you know, 265 00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:41,120 they would tell reporters that, oh, we know who did it, 266 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:43,240 we just can't prove it. M h boy have I 267 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:47,240 heard that a few times? Yeah, Tommy. They were convinced 268 00:13:47,759 --> 00:13:51,240 because of certain circumstantial evidence that Tommy did it. There were, 269 00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:54,039 as we discussed in the podcast, there were certain issues 270 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,159 with their theory. But Tommy was the last person to 271 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,159 see to be seen with Martha the night she was killed, 272 00:14:00,919 --> 00:14:05,320 and Michael skakell As was reported many times in many 273 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,799 police reports that the authorities were convinced that Martha Moxley 274 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,600 had been killed about nine fifty or ten pm on 275 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:16,960 October thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, and they wrote over and 276 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,000 over in police reports it has been established that Michael 277 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,879 Skakell at that hour was ten miles away watching Monty 278 00:14:24,919 --> 00:14:29,559 Python's flying circus at his cousin's house. And they did 279 00:14:29,639 --> 00:14:34,320 some interesting kind of acrobatics in the trial to suggest 280 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,600 that perhaps he hadn't gone, or that perhaps he could 281 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:38,200 have killed Martha Moxley. 282 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:39,879 Speaker 4: After But Tommy was. 283 00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 6: Tommy was, I got to say, a pretty good suspect, 284 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,200 and he became an even better suspect in the late 285 00:14:45,279 --> 00:14:47,559 nineties when he admitted things that he hadn't actually told 286 00:14:47,639 --> 00:14:50,759 the cops in the seventies about his contact with Martha 287 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,360 that night. And the great kind of tragedy. One of 288 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,639 the great tragedies of this case is that Michael had 289 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:02,240 such a terrible defense attorne that jurors never heard. I 290 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,360 think if jurors had heard just the two cases against 291 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,600 the brothers, Michael and Tommy, Michael and Tommy Skekell, and 292 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:12,080 were given a choice and not just you know, Michael's 293 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,720 attorney never never uttered the words reasonable doubt. But Mike, 294 00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:17,840 if Michael's attorney never chose to even introduce Tommy as 295 00:15:17,879 --> 00:15:22,320 the third party culprit ac culpability suspect. Nobody heard that 296 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:25,200 Michael's own brother was the last person to be seen 297 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,399 with Martha. Nobody ever heard that Tommy Skekell in an 298 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,159 interview after nineteen seventy five, saying that he had left 299 00:15:32,519 --> 00:15:34,000 Martha at nine thirty. 300 00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 4: Before Martha's body was found. 301 00:15:36,159 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 6: There was a phone call to the Scahle house from 302 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:40,799 the Moxleys being like, Martha never came home, can you 303 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,240 ask Tommy? And Tommy said, oh, I left Martha at 304 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,399 nine thirty at the back of the house and the 305 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,559 last thing I saw was her walking towards her house. 306 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 4: And he stuck with that for twenty twenty years. 307 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 6: So he sat down with an investigator who got him 308 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,519 to admit, oh, actually we stayed together after nine thirty, 309 00:15:57,639 --> 00:15:59,720 and we were together for another twenty minutes, which would 310 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,720 put with Martha about right. And he also said that 311 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:06,759 he had attempted a sexual assignation with her, which she 312 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,320 initially had blown him off, that perhaps he had tried 313 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,360 to go too far with her. So there was in 314 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,360 terms of you know, I'm not saying that Tommy Skagel 315 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,840 is the is Martha Moxley's murder. I'm saying if jurors 316 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:21,320 were given a choice to choose a murder between Michael 317 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,399 and his brother Tommy, knowing that one of them was 318 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:25,879 across town when the murder was when the murder happened, 319 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,320 and the other one actually admitted to having a partially 320 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,320 unsuccessful sexual assignation with a girl who told him to 321 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,399 cut it out, I think the jurors probably would have 322 00:16:35,399 --> 00:16:37,799 decided that Tommy was a more likely suspect. 323 00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 324 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,960 after this word from our sponsors. 325 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 4: We're back here at mindover Murder. 326 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,399 Speaker 5: I think you ever got into it in the podcast. 327 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,600 How do Michael and Stephen deal with their relationship with 328 00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:01,720 their brother now? I mean, do they have a relationship 329 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:02,159 with Tommy? 330 00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 4: They're stranged? I think that. 331 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:06,079 Speaker 6: I mean, this is kind of one of the meta 332 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,599 narratives of the podcast that was sort of difficult to navigate, 333 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,839 and it was hard to kind of very specifically say. 334 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,359 And I didn't know if I had the responsibility ever 335 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,119 to say this, which was, you know, Stephen, because Stephen 336 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,519 was the one Stephen is is I think when you 337 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:25,920 think of the term like brothers, keeper is sort of 338 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,759 Michael's keepers. Yes, and Stephen is very responsible, even though 339 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:31,000 he's much younger than Michael. Steven is the one that 340 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:34,720 tells Michael what to do. Michael lives in Stephen's house, 341 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,079 and Stephen is the one who, you know, in a 342 00:17:38,079 --> 00:17:39,960 lot of ways, assisted me with a lot of research 343 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,279 and knows, interestingly enough, a hell of a lot more 344 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,319 about the case than the guy who was actually convicted 345 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:47,599 of the crime. Michael knows virtually nothing about the case. 346 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:50,960 It was never a conversation that we had, but I 347 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,960 think that you know, Stephen's motivation in a lot of 348 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,960 ways was to finally show the public that his brother 349 00:17:58,039 --> 00:18:01,039 Michael was innocent of the crime, which I came to believe. 350 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,240 The difficulty of it was, if you're trying to is 351 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,200 it the family name you're trying to save, because I 352 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,279 think that I don't think that we're necessarily going to 353 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:14,160 do the same thing for your brother Tommy, right, And 354 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:16,480 is this something that we want to Is this going 355 00:18:16,519 --> 00:18:18,599 to be problematic if now, all of a sudden we 356 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,920 have two brothers who are suspected of the crime. Again, 357 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,559 I have no idea. I've talked to a lot of 358 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:27,839 people who know as much about the case as I do, 359 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,440 and they believe that Tommy Skaple absolutely didn't do it. 360 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,039 A lot of the people in bell Haven, especially who 361 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,559 knew Tommy, say that they didn't believe that Tommy did it. 362 00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:38,240 But you know, when I think about who killed Martha Maxley, 363 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,920 I have them kind of in tears of most likely 364 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,559 the least likely, and Michael is in I find him 365 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:47,799 in the least likely category. Sure, Tommy, I believe, is 366 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:49,279 in the most likely category. 367 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,319 Speaker 5: I definitely was intrigued by the teenagers from out of 368 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,079 town angle that we heard that for me, those were 369 00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:00,960 in the more likely a category. 370 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 6: Really torn on that because this was the issue that 371 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,119 I had with Bobby Bobby Kennedy, which is that Bobby, 372 00:19:09,759 --> 00:19:12,200 Bobby is absolutely convinced that he assault the case, that 373 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,599 it was these guys that you know, this was information 374 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,319 that had come to him that the authorities wouldn't listen to. 375 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,720 And after he wrote a very long piece in I 376 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,240 think I think it was in two thousand and three, 377 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:25,640 right after Michael had been convicted, Bobby wrote probably an 378 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:28,039 eight or ten thousand word piece in the Atlantic monthly 379 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,559 about why Ken Littleton, the tutor, was a far more 380 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,880 likely suspect. And so the article got out, and there 381 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,000 were people who had been trying to tell the authorities 382 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:41,000 that they had the wrong guy, that it wasn't Michael Skeekell, 383 00:19:41,319 --> 00:19:44,000 but it also wasn't Ken Lyttleton, it wasn't the tutor, 384 00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:46,880 that it was these people that nobody had ever heard of, 385 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,440 and the authorities had no interest. I mean, they were 386 00:19:49,519 --> 00:19:51,839 sort of hurtling towards this conviction of Michael Skeger. The 387 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,440 last thing I wanted to do was to bother with 388 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,920 investigating this new lead, a compelling lead it turned out. 389 00:19:59,079 --> 00:20:03,279 But yeah, without question, Bobby I think was more convinced 390 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:05,319 of these kids guilt than I was. And I think 391 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,079 Bobby was more willing to write in his book that 392 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,200 he felt. I think he said at one point, I 393 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,240 think these guys are are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 394 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,119 I don't know if I said this in these exact words, 395 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,000 but I was just sort of like, you realize what 396 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:22,160 happened to your cousin, the rush to judgment on your cousin, 397 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:24,200 You really want to say that these guys should be 398 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,839 convicted without a trial, Yeah, so I had major So 399 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,039 that's something. There were certain things in that book, and 400 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:32,160 that's why I always say, you know, I liked working 401 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,480 with Bobby, but that's Bobby's book, and that's Bobby's opinion. 402 00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,519 Speaker 4: Yeah so you thought, Kristen, did you? What did you think? 403 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 6: Well? 404 00:20:39,519 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 5: I definitely can see where Tommy would have been the 405 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,240 most likely. The teenagers from out of town also seemed 406 00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:49,799 pretty likely as well. But the kind of the talk 407 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,599 that they were given about oh where, you know, we're 408 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:53,680 going to go out and take what we want, caveman style. 409 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:57,920 That's teenage boys being teenage boys. I hear it all 410 00:20:58,039 --> 00:21:02,079 day long. I really feel like, probably Tommy Skable seems 411 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,519 like the better suspects, but I also don't want to 412 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:10,759 throw anything out there that might leave me culpable or no, 413 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:13,920 of course, no slander or anything else. 414 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:17,319 Speaker 6: But the thing that actually makes this case both so 415 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,119 interesting and so difficult is the original sin of this case, 416 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,200 which was such a botched investigation. Yes, that basically, and 417 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:28,480 the reason I think I didn't want to come down 418 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,160 particularly hard on any particular suspect was I feel like 419 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,200 we have about fifteen percent of a view of what 420 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:37,960 actually happened. In the fact so many leads were ignored 421 00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:41,279 at the very beginning. I mean, I find her boyfriend 422 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:43,160 to be particularly fascinating. 423 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 5: Yes, that too, Oh my gosh. 424 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,079 Speaker 6: Yeah, again, virtually erased from the narrative of the market 425 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:54,440 you would read. I don't think he may have been. 426 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,000 He may have been mentioned once in Mark Furman's book. 427 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,319 I think Len Levitt never used his last name, Luca. 428 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,920 Peter's Luca. She had a boyfriend who, it's very clear 429 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,119 from Martha's nineteen seventy five journals, is both jealous and 430 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,359 depressed and perhaps not right. And Peter's Luca is a 431 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,759 guy who had, unlike many of the other people, had 432 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,799 a pretty substantial criminal record after in the years after, 433 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:22,119 and he died of a drug overdose in his I 434 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,640 think late forties. But Peter was somebody who the authorities. 435 00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:29,319 I think they interviewed him. They may have interviewed him 436 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:32,759 once on Halloween with a bunch of other kids, a 437 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:36,680 really perfunctory interview. But then they interviewed him with his mother, 438 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,319 and there's no indication that he separated. That they separated 439 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,240 Peter from his mother, and Peter's mother gave him an 440 00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:47,920 alibi from six pm on October thirtieth to noon the 441 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,759 following day, which if you have a teenager, I have 442 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:54,400 teenage boys. I know that if I get fifteen minutes 443 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,839 of FaceTime with my teenage boy during the day, that 444 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,039 that's a lot, right, And she basically she said, I 445 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:02,720 saw him. We watched the Late movie, you know, we 446 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,440 watched the movie from nine to eleven together. My daughter 447 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:08,599 called from college at one am, and then I saw 448 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,440 Peter again. And I thought to myself, this alibi is 449 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:15,319 either the mother knowing that the police would be interested 450 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,599 in Peter, and her knowing that Peter hadn't done it, 451 00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:20,960 and her constructing an alibi that would basically cover all 452 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,119 this time, hour for hours for hours and potentially for 453 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,160 Peter having to or her actually covering for her son 454 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,680 one of the two, right. 455 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 4: Because I didn't. 456 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,079 Speaker 6: I don't know if Peter's luka had anything to do 457 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,759 with her death. I do not for a second believe 458 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,319 her believe his alibi, and I do not for a 459 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,000 second believe the reason that he gave to a writer 460 00:23:43,079 --> 00:23:45,480 in the mid nineties for why he didn't go out 461 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:48,640 to see Martha that night, which was this was a big, 462 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,039 strapping kid of sixteen or seven. I think he was sixteen, 463 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:55,920 but peters Aluka told a writer in the mid nineties 464 00:23:56,039 --> 00:23:58,400 that his mother said, you should go see your girlfriend. 465 00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,880 You should go to Bellhaven. Take the car and go 466 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,680 to bell Haven. And Peter said, that night I heard 467 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:05,519 that the trees scratching on the windows, and for the 468 00:24:05,519 --> 00:24:07,400 first time in my life, I was scared, and I 469 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,119 decided it wasn't going to go across town. 470 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: Really nope, not buying it. 471 00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:16,799 Speaker 6: Yeah, not buying it. Wasn't buying it at all. You know, 472 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,200 memory memories play tricks on people. I mean, I think 473 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,519 that I think that having having your girlfriend murdered, I 474 00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:24,400 think that there are a lot of people who talked 475 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,119 about that night and said things that I'm not necessarily 476 00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:31,279 im entirely convinced happened, including Michael Skiegele's tree story, which 477 00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:32,680 I don't know if you want to talk about or not. 478 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 5: But maybe maybe No, that's I think we saved that 479 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,279 one for your pod gap. 480 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 4: Okay, all right, yes, I didn't. 481 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 5: Wait, well, we don't want to give all the good 482 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,079 material away. 483 00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 4: Oh yes, okay, yeah, absolutely. 484 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 5: If you want to know the tree story, tune into 485 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:49,519 Dead Certain the Martha Masks. 486 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 4: I really hope. 487 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,559 Speaker 6: So, I mean, I think that I hope that I'm 488 00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:54,880 I'm I hope that some of your some of your 489 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,640 listeners will listen. 490 00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm really proud of it. Well, I'm going to make 491 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:01,200 an effort myself. As we stare to a close. What's 492 00:25:01,319 --> 00:25:02,960 next for you? Have you decided? 493 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,759 Speaker 4: I thought about it. I might. I'm fifty three years old. 494 00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:11,960 I think my industry. My industry is the print. 495 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,559 Speaker 6: I'll write probably a magazine story every two years, and 496 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,839 every year I go into the accountant it gets sort 497 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,079 of sadder and sadder slipping my ten ninety nines over 498 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,799 the table. I would love to do another podcast. Maybe 499 00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:28,680 I'll open a bar. I've thought sometimes I look at 500 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,000 bartenders and I think, well, that's kind of an interesting job. 501 00:25:31,319 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 4: I would love another story. I don't I don't have 502 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,559 ten years. 503 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 6: I don't know if I honestly I don't have the 504 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,400 time to do another scalholl story, but I'd like to. 505 00:25:40,599 --> 00:25:42,519 I mean, I've been so flattered that people have, you know, 506 00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:45,200 complimented me on the storytelling, and I'd like to tell 507 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,759 more stories. So I'd like to do another podcast. I 508 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:49,240 just don't have an idea at the moment. So if 509 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,160 anybody has anybody has a great idea. 510 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:54,559 Speaker 5: I'm saying we need to do chapiquitic. 511 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 4: I'm on board. I'm easily reached. 512 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,559 Speaker 6: I answer all of my anybody who wants to get 513 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,839 me on instae Grammar, It's Andrew Goldman Rights. And if 514 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,880 anybody has any ideas, I would love to hear them 515 00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:08,960 of something unsolved. I really would love to dig into 516 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:11,240 another case. Or it doesn't even have to be a crime, 517 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:15,240 just a great yarn. I'm gonna come up with a 518 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:15,720 whole list. 519 00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:16,559 Speaker 4: Yeah. 520 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, what if I stole your what if I stole 521 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,559 your partner? Oh, that would hurt There's enough of me 522 00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:27,400 to go around. That would hurt my feelings. But I 523 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:29,640 at the same time, I'm not going to stand in 524 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,400 Kristen's way. Now, Kristen's got PLNT Now, I mean, I 525 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,519 can tell she's got a lot of energy. She can teach, 526 00:26:34,559 --> 00:26:37,240 she can she can do, she can work, work with 527 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:40,480 you Monday through Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'll get Tuesday and Thursday. 528 00:26:40,839 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 4: There you go, There we go. We can make it happen. 529 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,799 See Kristin, you're even more pretty and popular. There, there 530 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:49,119 we go, There we go. 531 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 5: Well, the podcast is Jed certain the Martha Moxley Murder 532 00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,960 from Andrew Goldman and Andrew where can everybody find it? 533 00:26:56,519 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 4: Wherever you find your podcast? 534 00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 6: I mean, I think that NBC News Studios is put 535 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,599 up a website where so if you google Dead Certainty NBC, 536 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,279 you'll go to their podcast. You can go out to Spotify, 537 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,000 you can go to Apple, and if you like it, 538 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:10,599 I would love if you could leave a review, because 539 00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:12,119 we were kind of sort of I was kind of 540 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,839 surprised at the venom of some of the early reviews. 541 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,759 Speaker 4: Really, yes, oh, yoh, yeah, yeah. This is what I've 542 00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:20,160 told Bill. 543 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 5: I don't read our reviews. 544 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 6: Bill all the times, and people told me, don't read 545 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,839 the comments, and of course the first thing I do 546 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:27,920 is I read the comments. 547 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 4: But yeah, so. 548 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 5: Don't don't read the comments, don't read the reviews. It's 549 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,519 a wonderful podcast. I will vouch for that. Thank you, 550 00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:37,640 and so for our listeners. For our listeners who like 551 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,640 my taste in books and my taste in podcasts like 552 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,119 this one as well. It is wonderful. It is a 553 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,119 great listen, and it's a great story that maybe you 554 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,160 haven't heard of before, or at least not the way 555 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,400 you think you've heard it, Andrew, thank you for joining 556 00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:50,839 us today. 557 00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:54,039 Speaker 4: We love reading here. Please have me back. 558 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 6: I obviously I could talk about this for seven hours, 559 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:57,799 but I know you don't want. 560 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 4: To hear of it. But I'm always happy to come. Bill. 561 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 6: I'm very happy for all the developments. It's really it's 562 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,559 got to be something for you. Oh, thank you. 563 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,279 Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of 564 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:10,200 mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. Please 565 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,240 do check on dead certain and we'll see you next time. 566 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 567 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,640 Another Dog Productions. 568 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,519 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 569 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,319 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 570 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 571 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 572 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,359 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 573 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 574 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,119 Murders on Facebook. 575 00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 576 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,519 Bill Thomas five six. 577 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:21,359 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind over Murder. 578 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 5: Com