Speaker 1: Welcome to the Master of the NEEC podcast, the ultimate
destination for anyone passionate about the electrical trade. Whether you're
a season electrician, an eager apprentice, or just someone who
wants to dive deep into the world of electrical work,
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a true authority in the industry with over thirty eight
years of trade experience, as he electrifies your mind with
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you ahead of the curve.
Speaker 2: Each episode, Paul.
Speaker 1: Will illuminate the complexities of the trade, decode the national
electrical code, and share the latest industry trends, all while
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So hear up, plug in, and get ready to supercharge
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Speaker 2: Now get ready. Here is your host, Paul Abernavi.
Speaker 3: Welcome everybody, Thanks for joining me on another episode of
Master the NEC podcast. My name is Paul Avernet to
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Speaker 2: Is that cool or what?
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And it's free, and there's just a ton of calculators
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fasttracksystem dot com.
Speaker 2: Go definitely check it out.
Speaker 3: Okay, so we want to talk a little bit about that.
In today's episode. We're going to talk a little about
mc cable and ac cable and we're going to be
relating to an article that I wrote on the subject
over on our website, fasttracksystem dot com. Over on the blog,
so if you check it out, you will see it
over in the blogs. And it's the actually it's the
first blog of twenty twenty five. Very first one came
out on January third, and we're talking about bundling of
multiiconductor cable assemblies and more specifically, we're going to be
talking about MC and AC cable today, but we'll just
give you some general information about bundling. What bundling is,
what is considered bundling a term that is not defined
in the NEEC, but again you can kind of get
there if you will, by just the language that's in
the code itself. So we're going to be talking about
all of that today on this episode. But again it
remind you, folks, if you really want to get into
a good course about learning the National Electrical Code, get
rid of all the fluff. You just want it to
be not full of Paul's opinions. And we've purposely constructed
a program that does that gets rid of my opinions
in there, and basically, you read it, you have chevrons
you go to your codebook, you read what the code says,
and you come back and you see how we paraphrased it,
and that together helps you learn the National Electrical Code.
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On today's episode, we're gonna get past that and we're
going to talk about bundling.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I encourage you to get our our app or go
to our website just so you can read the blogs.
So the blogs are amazing. We spend a lot of
time writing these. They're constantly being edited, adding to them.
They're kind of perpetual, if you will. It's not like
I write a blog and then leave it forever. We're
always adding to it, clarifying, making sure that you know
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that maybe you have some insight that we didn't cover
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Whether you purchase a course or not, you're part of
the family. So we appreciate that, and we appreciate all
you looking at our blogs and things like that. Okay,
so today we're going to be talking a little bit
about the aspects of bundling and what is bundling, and
we're going to show you talk about the provision of
where if you have MC or ac cable that if
you have you meet certain conditions then you may be bundling.
Speaker 2: Okay, and we'll talk about that.
Speaker 3: But you may be bundling your MC cable, which is
a multiiconductor cable. You may be bundling it for more
than twenty four inches without maintaining any spacing, means they're
touching continuously for twenty four inch.
Speaker 2: Over twenty four.
Speaker 3: Inches, then that is basically bundling. And when you do that,
you're going to have to do some type of adjustment.
An adjustment just means that you're going to take whatever
the capacity is you thought the conductor had and you're
going to reduce it to what it actually can carry
due to the condition of use.
Speaker 2: And that's called adjustments.
Speaker 3: We also have what's called corrections, which have to do
with ambient temperatures, but that's for a totally different episode.
And if you really want to get a good deep
dive into adjustment and corrections, and I encourage you to
go over to fast tracks Tube, that is fast tracks
Tube fas t t r X tube dot com and
watch the d rating demystified video that we did that
really deep dives into continuous slowdes non continuous loads, conditions
of use, the eighty three percent rule when it comes
to three, ten dot twelve.
Speaker 2: We cover all of that, and that is available over
on fast Tracks Tube.
Speaker 3: A lot of good content over there, and tons of
new stuff's coming. In fact, we even have a new
interactive feature now for quizzes.
Speaker 2: If you haven't checked it out, please do.
Speaker 3: It's under video tab over on fast tracks Tube, and
if you're a subscriber, you'll see that you'll have access
to the very first interactive video that we've made, and
it is cool and it's on illuminais and clothes closets.
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go check it out right now over on fast tracks Tube.
It's underneath the video tab and you'll see it. It
says interactive videos and quizzes, all right, And eventually it'll
have its own tab at the very top. But right now,
that's where you get it because we only have one
course there or one lesson if you will there. Okay,
So this is kind of a new thing for us,
and we're excited about it because it's going to engagement
into the videos.
Speaker 2: All right, So let's talk.
Speaker 3: About this thing three ten, fifteen C one when we
have more than three current carrying conductors, So if I
have a twelve two, now i've got typically i'm gonna
have two current caring conductors.
Speaker 2: If I have a twelve three, I might have three
current current conductors.
Speaker 3: Okay, depending on whether the neutral, whether or not you're
dealing with a system that that brand circuit is supplying
non linear loads like fluorescent lighting, then of course that
neutral is going to carry current.
Speaker 2: It's going to be a non linear load.
Speaker 3: We can also find out what neutrals are when they
are considered current carrying by just going to three ten
fifteen E and E is titled neutral conductor, and you
go through there and you can see that, for example,
three wires, two hots and a neutral in a four
wire three phase y system, then that neutral is going
to carry about the same current as any of the
unground the conductors or the hots, so you definitely will
count it as a current current. But the one that
I just said fluorescence, for example, you could have a
situation where it's a four wire three phase y circuit
where the major portion of the load consists of non
linear loads. Well, if it's a brand circuit for fluorescent lighting,
then I can promise you that a major portion of
that load on that brand circuit will be.
Speaker 2: Non linear loads.
Speaker 3: Okay, So if that's the case, then you're going to
have a lot of harmonic currents in there, and that
neutral is going to carry current and you're going to
treat it as a current care and conductor.
Speaker 2: So that's important for us to.
Speaker 3: Understand because when we start to see these allowances in
a second, when we get there at three ten fifteen
C one D for MC and AC cable, when it
comes to bundling, you're going to see that it can
play a dramatic role on whether or not you get
to use the you know, get to ignore adjustment factors
or you have to say, crap, I have now got
a situation where I have more than three current current
conductors in this cable, and so now I'm going to
have to adjust the opacity and that can make or
break your day, depending on if you had a load
that you needed a certain conductor for a certain amount
of amps, and now you do some kind of adjustment,
and now you got a conductor that doesn't have enough
capability to handle the load because it is adjusted the
opacity down below what you need. And now you got
a problem. Okay, and then you're like, what do I do? Well, shit,
if you don't detect it after it's already done and
inspector finds out or somebody looks at it, then you're
like Jesus, who do I backcharge for that? Nobody? Because
you did it, you got to eat it. That's why
it's so important to understand the National Legical Code. Now,
there are some key principles that we'll talk about, like,
for example, when you're stacking or bundling your EMCs and
bridal rings whatever, then you know just to you know,
not to put more than ten twelve two's for example,
and you don't intermix.
Speaker 2: It with ten gauge EMC's or anything like that, And
we'll talk about that.
Speaker 3: But there's just certain things that you learn in the
trade and you have to be aware of that. An
apprentice or somebody learning early on might not when you
go tell them to run a bunch of mc cable,
for example, they might not think about these code rules.
And you can't blame anybody but yourself. If you're the
master and your apprentice does this, they're under your watch,
so we can't kick that bucket to somebody else, right,
you're responsible for them. So that's the stuff we're going
to talk about in today's episode.
Speaker 2: Okay, now, before I get too deep into this.
Speaker 3: I also want to tell you that I have a
great blog on this subject and it's a living document
and so if I feel like I want to add
something else to it, we add more to it.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 3: We don't want and done these things. That's why it's
so important for you to follow our blogs. And we
have dozens of blogs that you read them. And I'm
a big believer in reading stuff. You know, we do
have the video platfor videos a good supplemental I get it,
but we have so bad attention spans today that how
many times have you watched a video and you've watched
it and you kind of forgot what the hell was
in it, and you're like, shit, I gotta go back
and watch it again. That's when people always say, hey, Paul,
I want to rewind feature so I can go back
and forth on a video. It's because videos are great
as supplemental, but I never will buy into the fact
that they are one hundred percent the best way to
learn something technical.
Speaker 2: Like the code.
Speaker 3: I think you have to read it, and I think
you read it, and the number one thing that people
struggle with is comprehension. You read it and you don't
know what you just read and that's a problem, and
so we have to work on that. And that's why
what we do in our program is give you the code,
then we give you a chevron to the code section.
Speaker 2: You go, you stop, you go to the codebook, you read.
Speaker 3: The section, then you come back to the course material
and it just makes better sense. And that's a scenario
that we started years ago, and other people slowly copy
the concept, but that is what we started when we
created the fast Tracks system. It's not about the code.
It's not about delivery the code. It's not about the
code content. It's about the system and how we created
the system, moving in and out of the codebook, illustrations,
putting everything together. That's what we have the trademarks on okay.
It is not one of those things that are code
is code okay. And obviously we paraphrase the code where
we need to, because again we don't want to copy
it verbatim. We like to paraphrase it because it kind
of gives it a little bit of flavor rather than
just boring content that type of thing. But it all
comes together at the end. So I encourage you to
go check out the blog. It's over. You can't miss it.
You go to our website, you click blog and it'll
take you right to the blogs. Now this is January
three blog, by the way, so it is again the
first blog of twenty twenty five. So it's kind of
special because we took the time to break it out.
Speaker 2: And again mc.
Speaker 3: AC cable, but let's talk multiiconductor cables assemblies in general. Okay,
we're just sitting here, we have our coffee, we're chatting
it out. So non metallic she's cable in m Okay,
many people call it romex, which is a brand name
for a product from South Wire, but it's basically just
non metallic she's cable that can be bundled. We have
rules in three thirty four dot eighty and again you
hear me throw out these code references. You can always
pause this podcast and go read it. I encourage you
to be that engaged. Of course, if you're out on
the job site and you're listening while you're working, get
your work done.
Speaker 2: Make that money.
Speaker 3: That's that's how the world goes around. Make that money.
But when you get your downtime, go to the codel
can read it, go back and forth. Really get engaged
in it because it's going to help solidify it and
you learn it. I as a funny. I hear a
guy all the time. He's he's so cool. He's over
in TikTok. He's a cool guy. His name he goes
by Philly Kso he's cool dude. And he'll tell you
right up front. He says he's a dude. He says,
I'm a duel man. He does it, okay, you know
a kid. He does the work, but he doesn't know
all of the code and he doesn't have to because
he knows to stop and go read the code when
he needs it. Other than that, he's just a product
of doing it. He's got his hands dirty. He's got
the cuts on his hands to prove it. So when
we do things in the code now, what we do things,
we're doing it per code. We probably have looked before
and we're just doing it because we've done repetition over
and over and over again. But he's pretty cool because
when he doesn't know something about code, he's very honest
about it, and he says, I don't know what the
code says on this, he'll go read it and interpret it.
But he doesn't carry the code book in his pocket
and he doesn't have to, and you don't have to either,
but it's healthy for you to understand the code because
I think in a recent episode he was doing something
and he thought that for example, I think it was
the afcis when you're moving a panel and if you move,
if you move it not more than six feet, then
you don't have to even on a service change, you
don't have to change and put afcies in. Now we
can get into the semantics of whether or not you
do an upgrade. And if you did an upgrade, then
the jurisdiction could consider that new then they may invoke something.
But if it's a like for like, for example, just
taking one hundred damn fuse and turning into a hundred
damn circuit breaker, then if you're you know, we can
get into the semantics. But the point was he thought
the six foot measurement was from lug to lug, and
it's really not.
Speaker 2: It's from enclosure to enclosure.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's the it's the wire between or the
cable between the two enclosures. It doesn't include the portion
that goes in into the lugs. And uh, it can
make a huge difference, right, It makes a difference because
it means that you can only go probably physically three
feet because you're going to have at least a foot
and a half in each one of the enclosures to determinate.
And so that's why it's so important to read the code.
And that's when he realized he did read it, and
he says, oh wow, I was wrong. It's it's six
feet from enclosure to enclosure, and so yeah, that's a
significant difference. And that's because he stopped and went and
read the code. Okay, that's the importance of it. And
that's what you got to do as a trade person.
You have to be engaged in the code. Whether you
want to be hate the code, it doesn't matter. What
you do is all founded in code anyway. Okay, all right,
So anyway.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk today about bundling.
Speaker 3: And we're going to be looking at three ten fifteen
C one, but we're going to be keing the focus
in on the mc cable as it relates to the
article that we that we wrote on our website. Okay, now, bundling,
if you go to the NEC and you look at
three ten fifteen C one and you look at it
and it says more than three current current conductors. Now,
the first thing that people struggle with this is the
way this is one big run on paragraph, the way
that it runs. Okay, multiple sentences grouped together, and one
of our goals for the code panels was to try
to break things out. But obviously some things get missed,
or maybe they felt that this was pretty self explanatory
they didn't need to break it out again. Code Panel
six is probably the one that was working on this,
and it's not like it's not like they didn't have
their hands full with some other issues going on. And
you might say, what are you talking about, Paul, And
I'll just say, if you know, you know, if you
don't know, it's best you don't get involved in it
because it could end you. You could end up being
deposed or something, so just.
Speaker 2: Just ignore it.
Speaker 3: But they had a lot of work on their plate,
so they probably didn't look and nobody probably submitted any
public input in order to break this out anyway, So
let's look at it. I'm gonna read it to you
and I'll break it out for you so it's easier
to understand. And then well we'll tie it into our
MCNAC application. So evere ten fifteen C one says more
than three current car and conductors. So when we have
more than three current carrent conductors, we are going to
have to do what's called an adjustment. And all we're
doing is adjusting the opacity of the conductor. Uh, because
when it comes to more than three current carent conductors,
you have what's called mutual heating, and the heating is
going to cause the temperature of that conductor to rise
quicker to the thermal limit of the insulation.
Speaker 2: So what do we do.
Speaker 3: We dropped the amount of current you can put on
a conductor so that it gives a bit more of
a headroom between the temperature that's generated from the conductor
and the ambient temperature before it gets to a value
that can compromise the rating of the conductor's insulation. And
once you compromise the conductor's insulation, now it starts breaking
down and you're going to get bolted, falts, ground faults,
all types of things you do not want. Okay, So
we're trying to preted against that.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So it reads as it says, the apacity of each
conductor shall be reduced. So that's the goal here, that
the concept is if you have more than three current
current conductors, we're gonna have to drop that capacity, as
shown in Table three ten fifteen C one. Okay, so
that's a little table that you'll have, and that's the
one that says, well, if you have four to six
current current conductors, then you're gonna be using it eighty
percent multiplier. If you have seven to nine, you're gonna
be using a seventy percent. If you have ten to twenty,
you're gonna be using a fifty percent. If you have
over twenty one, for example, twenty one to thirty, it's
going to be forty five, and then thirty one to
forty it's forty and then forty ozh above forty one
and above it's thirty five. Virtually, you're creating a conductor
that will have zero current carrying ability eventually, or you're
working your way towards that at least it won't have
enough current carrying ability to handle whatever your intended load is.
That you installed the brand circuit there in the first place,
for that.
Speaker 2: Becomes a problem.
Speaker 3: So let's read it and I'll explain each piece separate
before we jump down to dealing with MCNAC allowances or
provisions that you can use. Okay, So here it is
again it says the opacity of each conductor shall be
reduced as shown in Table three ten fifteen C one,
where the number of current carr and conductors in a
raceway or a cable exceeds three. So that's the first part.
If you were to bullet point those out, that's what
you would do if you're a highlighter of your codebook
and you're not preparing for an exam, even if you
are preparing for exam, if they let you highlight, this
is where it helps to have multiple color highlights. This
first part here you could do in pink or yellow
or whatever you want to use, because that's the first rule.
So that is raceways or cables where I have more
than three current current conductors, then I'm going to reduce
the opacity.
Speaker 2: Okay. Next it says or.
Speaker 3: Where single conductors or and this is where we kick
in multiconductor cables not installed in raceways are installed without
maintaining spacing for a continuous length longer than twenty four inches.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we get into.
Speaker 3: A lot of debates with people say, well, what the
hell does without maintaining spacing mean and it means exactly
what it says. If you're running a bunch of multiconductor cables,
they're not installed in a raceway. Although, by the way,
you can put multiconductor cables in a raceway.
Speaker 2: It's a myth that people say you can't. Obviously you can.
Speaker 3: So if I'm installing them without maintaining spacing, now the
caveat here it says maintaining spacing for a continuous length
longer than twenty four inches, okay, So if it's under
twenty four inches, not so. That's why when you're running
MC cables example, I'm just using MC because that's the
topic of the day. If you're running them through board holes,
for example, and they're close, they're all touching as they
go through the borehole, that's fine. That's obviously not continuous
longer than twenty four inches, right.
Speaker 2: Well, they might.
Speaker 3: Even run through a set of ganged studs and it
might be twelve inches where that all of them run
through that I'm just throwing things out there. That'd be okay,
because that is not continuously longer than twenty four inches.
So the moral of the story here is, if you're
gonna run MC cables then we're gonna talk about MC's.
But if you're going to run MC cables, and this again,
this applies to any multiiconductor cable. Even though NM cable
has its own rules about being in contact with thermal insulation,
so does MC cable under three thirty four dot eighty
four NM for nonmetallic and three point thirty dot eighty
four MC even though they got their own rules for
being in contact with thermal insulation. Okay, that will send
you back here and you have to go to the table.
So it sends you directly to the table, so you
don't get to use the allowances that we're going to
talk about in a minute for the thermal insulation contact
here is different because this is just saying multiiconductor cables
in general. So it could be trade cable, it could
be NM cable, it could be MC cable, it could
be AC cable, could be SEE cable. Those are all
multiconductor cables, okay, multiconductor being two or more okay. And
they're not installed in a raceway okay. So they're following
their uses permitted rules dot ten of their specific wiring
method and they're.
Speaker 2: Being installed, but they're being installed in a.
Speaker 3: Way that they're touching continuously for over twenty four inches. Now,
I can tell you where I've seen this take place
that had devastating effects, and this was in a grow
house that was a regular dwelling, and I can't remember.
I think it was in Colorado when they changed over
and you had a house. It was a regular dwelling
that was gutted pretty much, but it was used as
a grow house. And they used what they did an
installation practice where they bought all of their INM cables
together like a trunk line, and then they tie wrapped
them together.
Speaker 2: It could do the same thing for MC whatever.
Speaker 3: They thought that looked better because it was neaterter They're
all running down the same way, and everything looked uniform.
Speaker 2: They looked neat.
Speaker 3: But the problem was now that they changed the loading conditions,
the type of loading, it wasn't as diverse as it
was with a dwelling. Now those conductors are caring much
more current and in this scenario because they were bundled
and they were installed where they were not maintaining spacing,
and so in that point they were bundled for length
longer than twenty four inches. They start the heat couldn't
dissipate out of it. Even if it wasn't loading them
to their full extent, the cables that were inside of
the bundle couldn't dissipate the heat adequate and it caused
the breakdown and it caused fires. And not to mention,
they also through these in thermal insulations because that affects
it as well. But at the end of the day,
bundling was in effect because they were not maintaining the spacing,
and of course probably never caused an issue because of
diversity in the dwelling, even though the code is what
it is, But it's the moment that they changed the
condition of use, the loading what was going on in
that building and without changing the wiring created a problem
and it caused a fire.
Speaker 2: Okay, so the rules are here for a reason.
Speaker 3: Now it also goes on to say that that we
can put so it actually says each current carrying conductor
in a parallel set of conductors shall be counted as
current carrying conductor. Okay, So if I have multiple sets
for example, ABC, ABC, ABC, then again, and each current
carent conductor in the sets, you know, the a's, the
b the c's, they're all considered current current conductors. Now,
if you go down and you look at the allowances
under C one, you'll have an A, A B, A C,
and a D. We're going to be focusing on D, okay,
because you do have some allowances. For example, when you're
running underground conductors, you have some allowances.
Speaker 2: When you're talking about.
Speaker 3: A raceway that is uh not exceeding twenty four inches,
which people want to call a nipple. Chapter nine, Table
one refers you know, refers to things like nipples. But again,
I don't like that terminology. It's still just a raceway, okay,
whether it's twenty four inches or not, it's still a raceway.
Speaker 2: So I don't know.
Speaker 3: I like the term nipple, but it doesn't use nipple here,
so that's good, right.
Speaker 2: And then of course, any.
Speaker 3: Conductors that are installed in cable trades, you're going to
follow the rules in six ninety two eighty uh for
cable trade applications, and you got stacking and spacing and
all these other rules that you have to follow for
k if you're going to install single insulated conductors in
cable trays. But we're focusing on the allowance for or
AC cable because it probably is the most predominant application
of MC cable and commercial buildings. I can tell you
is on co wire, we produce a lot of twelve
to MC cable. I mean a lot, I mean over
one hundred machines that run twenty four to seven a
year round, probably break for Christmas and New Year's but
other than that, it runs all the time. And it's
because you have the lighting loads and commercial receptacle loads
and commercial and majority of all that is twelve gage
and the vast majority of this is a simple twelve
two okay, which does not have more than three current
carent conductors.
Speaker 2: There's two current carrying conductors in there.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I also again to
not be redundant is I remind people when is a
neutral considered current carrying You should take some time in
go to three TENOT fifteen and then go all the
way down and look at E. And I'm in the
twenty twenty three edition of the NEC by the way,
So in case anything reference I make to you in
code you're like, well, that's not in my code book.
Well it's going to be somewhere around there, okay, depending
on what cycle you're in. But I'm working in the
twenty twenty three edition, and I'm always going to be
in the latest published edition, regardless of where you are
in the country. I'm always going to be teaching out
of the twenty twenty three I can't go backwards.
Speaker 2: I have to keep moving forwards. Okay.
Speaker 3: Now, if you look at what's considered a neutral conductor
and what would not be considered current caring, then you
have conditions here. For example, the neutral conductor of a
three two two phase conductors and a neutral that are
derived from a four wire three phase.
Speaker 2: Why, well, if that's what you're doing, So.
Speaker 3: You're taking a four wire three phase system and you're
breaking off of that to create a three wire where
you have two two ungrounded hot conductors and a neutral.
If that's the case, then that neutral is current carrying
because it's going to carry approximately the same amount of
current as the ligne to neutral load currents of the
other conductors that are there. Okay, So when that takes place,
then you have to apply three ten fifteen C one,
so it's considered a current carent conductor.
Speaker 2: The other condition would be.
Speaker 3: If you have a four wire three phase y system
and the majority of or the major portion of the
loads consists of non linear loads.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: If that's the case, then you got what's called harmonic currents,
and the worst affected be tripling harmonics. Those are going
to be presented onto the neutral, and therefore that neutral
conductor is going to be considered a current carry conductor.
So you have to know what your system is. In
a simple two wire cable twelve two, then the neutral
and the hot are both considered current carrent conductors. Out
If I have two conductors that are sharing a neutral,
it's a you know, basically, I've got a multi wire
branch circuit and I've got two one twenty voult circuits
that are sharing a neutral. Well, then that neutral is
only carrying the unbalanced current from the other conductors and
it's not to be counted when you're applying three ten
dot fifteen C one.
Speaker 2: So that's why you.
Speaker 3: See, if I have a red and a black and
it's doing a multi wire brand circuit, you follow all
the requirements to do that and identified handle tie or
on a two pole breaker so that you ensure that
each one of the legs are on a separate leg
coming into the panel. Then what you're going to have
is a cancelation effect take place, and then of course
then we do not have to count that neutral as
a current carent conductor when it comes to following these
rules at three ten dot fifteen. However, if I have
a three phase system and it's a multi wire brand circuit,
and I have a neutral, but that neutral is basically
dealing in a situation where it's supplying loads that are
non linear loads like fluorescent lighting, then I have to
be careful because then you've got what non linear loads
fluorescent would be like that it's carrying non linear loads,
then what happens, Well, then you've got current that is
traveling on the neutral, probably equal to any of the others,
any of the other ungrounded conductors to the neutral.
Speaker 2: So what happens is you have to treat it as
a current current conductor.
Speaker 3: So these are things that you have to think about
when do I count that neutral, And if you do
count it, it can play a major role in whether
or not you can apply three ten do fifteen C
one D. And so that's what we're going to talk about.
So we're looking at three ten fifteen C one D
and this is based also on the article that I
wrote over on our website, So make sure you check
out that article. If any of this becomes confusing, take
some time go check it out.
Speaker 2: Doesn't cost you anything, it's free, all right. So what
are we talking about here?
Speaker 3: So is there a condition where I'm running MC cable
or I'm running AC cable, and let's say I am
bundling it for more than twenty four inches, I'm not
maintaining spacing continuously.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So all right?
Speaker 3: Is there a condition when I can apply this allowance
where I can look at this adjustment factor and say,
you know what, I don't want to deal with it.
I don't want to have to apply the adjustment factor. Well,
there is, but you have to meet specific conditions. There
are four conditions to meet, and there is an exception
to one of the conditions, but you have to meet them.
Speaker 2: All okay, So let's look at it.
Speaker 3: So, if you have your National Electrical Code, We're going
to go again three ten fifteen C one D and
I'm going to read it. It says adjustment factors shall
not apply to type AC cable or to type MC
cable under the following conditions. So what that means is
you have to meet all of these conditions. Now we
will give you an exception to one condition, but you
still have to meet generally all the conditions that are
in the scope of d Okay.
Speaker 2: So what's the first thing that says? Okay? So let's
assume in.
Speaker 3: Our mind that we've got a situation where we have
the twelve MC cables, and each one of those MC
cables contain two current current conductors black and white, and
so we have got twelve of them. And you don't
blame the apprentice. You did it. You loaded it up.
So let's see if we can use this allowance here,
which is not an exception.
Speaker 2: A lot of people call it an exception.
Speaker 3: It's a provision because it doesn't say that this is
an exception. It just it's a provision that you can
utilize in here. So it says, first thing, it goes, okay,
each cables do not have an overall outer covering. Okay,
So this is three ten to fifteen, uh three ten
fifteen C one D one and okay, so it's MC cable.
It's not PVC jacket at MC, it's just MC cable. Okay,
we have no jacket. Good there, We're good. The next
caveat is that each cable shall have not more than
three current carr and conductors. Well, if it did have
if it did have more than three, then I couldn't
use D and I just have to apply the adjustment
factors like I would anything else. So we're trying to
see if we can ignore the adjustment factors. Well, are cables,
for example, which are twelve two which have two current
carrent conductors. We're okay, we meet that item. So we
meet D two not a problem. I had number three
three says conductors are twelve copper. Okay, So this is
very important to understand. There are people out there that say,
you know what, what if I'm have a cables and
I'm bundling them, but in that bundle of these twelves mcs,
I also have some ten MC, maybe even some six
MC that are in the same bundle. Can I isolate
the twelves out and if I don't have more than
well I'm getting ahead of myself. Can I treat each
one of the bundles separate?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: If they're all bundled together, they're all putting off mutual heating,
and they're all going to affect the opacity of their
conductors in different ways for you to be able to
use this adjust to ignore the adjustment factors.
Speaker 2: Here, the rule is it has to be.
Speaker 3: All twelve, okay, in order to do that, because even
the tens or even the eights are going to add
mutual heating over to these conductors. So the whole point
here is that there's size twelve, okay, twelve gauge. The
next one says, okay, so I have not more than
if you have not more, so in our case we
do have twelve games, so we're good. The next says,
not more than twenty current carrying conductors are installed without
maintaining spacing. That means, be honest with you if they're
touching at any point. So once we get to this allowance,
this provision in D, it's irrelevant the fact that we
have the continuous without maintaining spacing for continuously for over
twenty four inches. The assumption is we're down here because
we have that issue. That's why we're down here.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So in this scenario right here, it says, well, if
you don't have more than twenty current current conductors installed
without maintaining spacing, are stacked, or are supported on bridle rings,
then you can say, okay, if I meet all of these,
so I don't have the jacket, I don't have more
than three current carent conductors. I am using twelve gauge,
and I don't have more than twenty current CARR conductors.
Guess what I get to ignore any of the adjustment
factors even if I'm bundling that cable. Hell, I could
bundle it for fifty feet MC cables as long as
I have what no jacket, not more than three current
current conductors, it's twelve gauge, and I don't have more
the accumulation of conductors in this bundle. If I don't
have more than twenty current carent conductors in summation, then
I can just say forget about it and not worry
about the adjustment factors.
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful thing. Guys, think about how you're doing this.
Speaker 3: Because it gives you the ability because a lot of
times what you'll be doing is these twelves mcs are
probably going to be due lighting in commercial buildings probably
going to do lighting.
Speaker 2: This lighting is going to be continuous loads.
Speaker 3: Right, So when you're sizing the brand circuit to ten
dot nineteen, you're sizing everything. If it's continuous load and
one hundred and twenty five percent, so you've got to
take all that in consideration. And lighting is continuously for
three hours and more a maximum output whatever it's lamped at,
so it can make a major impact on sizing conductors
and which load you can have on something. So if
you had to adjust it and start lowing that apacity,
then you could end up with a conductor that after
the end of the day, after all that work, does
not have the apacity capable of handling whatever load you
needed to handle, And that becomes a big headache, especially
if you're it's not detected until the end of the
job and you're going, well, why didn't the inspector find
that out? Well, that's your responsibility, not the inspectors. They
may miss it, they may not account it that they
trusted you. They're not going to sit there and go
through every single thing account I mean, they don't have
the time for that. It's always going to be your responsibility,
always your responsibility to make sure it's done right. Now,
if I'm in this situation here and I've got let's say,
let me give you one scenario that we give this
scenario in are what's called practical application. What happens if, again,
I have cables that are twelves and tens all together
in the bundle. Okay, Well, if that's the case, then
you cannot use this allowance and you cannot use the exception.
Why because the exception is very clear on what you
have to meet.
Speaker 2: You have to.
Speaker 3: Still meet one, two, and three in order to be
able to even use the exception.
Speaker 2: So what is the exception? Okay, I just gave you
an example.
Speaker 3: I was going to talk about ten and twelves, but
I'll use this while I'm looking at the exception.
Speaker 2: So I'll make it easy. Let's look at the exception.
Speaker 3: So what if I happen to have more than twenty
current current conductors? The apprentice will blame the apprentice. It's
always on you because you're the master or the journeyman.
They don't overseas it, but we'll blame the apprentice because
it's just the easy thing to do.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So they happen to throw eleven or even twelve MC's
in the bridle rings or in the bundle and they're
not maintaining spacing, Okay, then you're like, oh, well, crap,
what do I do? Now, because that takes you out
of the ability to use this allowance here, and that
would ultimately send your butt down to using the table
three ten fifteen C one. And if we have got,
for example, eleven m season there with twelve twos in
each one and we got eleven so now that's twenty
two current carr and conductors, well we have over twenty
and we're like, oh crap. So if we didn't have
an exception, then we would come down here and look
and say, well, damn, if it's twenty one to thirty,
that's going to drop it to forty five as a multiplier. Well,
what what does exception say? Well, this exception says, you
know what, if your cables meet the requirements of three
ten fifteen C one D one and that is the
one about not having a jacket on it through C
one D three, which means it also doesn't have more
than three current carry conductors in each cable and the
conductors are twelve gauge, so I had to meet all
three of these. So the twelve gates is a trigger
here if that is a case, if you have more
than twenty current carent conductors are installed longer than twenty
four inches without maintaining spacing, are stacked or are supported.
Speaker 2: On bridal rings.
Speaker 3: It says a sixty percent adjustment factor shall be applied. Well,
I can tell you right now you're far better to
apply a sixty percent than to that scenario with the
twenty two current car conductors than it is for you
to have to apply a forty five. Make a huge difference.
So we're assuming that this is MC. We'll assume that
the conductor's inside of it are rated ninety degrees thhn,
we just go with that assumption. The code allows me
to adjust from the higher opacity conductor, so I'd adjust
it from the ninety degree twelve gauge good for thirty amps.
If I do it at forty five multiplier based on
the table, then it gives me like a conductor that's
good for thirteen point five amps.
Speaker 2: That sucks.
Speaker 3: But if I use the sixty percent, I believe it
gives me a conductor. If you multiply from the thirty
I believe it gives me an opacity of eighteen amps,
which means that hey, for lighting applications, it may be
okay for me to be able to utilize it right
and still be able to keep going and doing what
I'm doing. And now I have a conductor that again,
as long as the load doesn't exceed eighteen amps, can
I terminate that on a twenty amp overcurrent device. Absolutely,
So I still get a twenty amp circuit based on
on the rating of the overcurrent device. So I still
meet that, especially if it's a circuit to a load
that demands that it be a twenty amp rated circuit.
So it's still at twenty amps. Now my load can't
exceed eighteen amps. Right, But at the end of the day,
when you're looking at it, you're like, at least I
have something to work with, and it still can be
protected at twenty amp overcurrent protected device, and we're okay, okay,
and we meet the rules also in two ten dot
twenty for the overcurrent protection for continuous loads.
Speaker 2: Okay, that type of scenario.
Speaker 3: So's it's one of those things that you're still going
to be okay, But the moment you have to use
that forty five, you're screwed.
Speaker 2: Now, why don't I bring that up again.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the exist, go to my example
of mixing twelves and tens. Right, So if I had
ten MC cables with twelve conductor in it. Okay, then
that's twenty current current conductors of twelve. Then I have
four MC's in the bundle that have ten gauged. Again,
two current carrent conductors in each cable, and that ends
up with eight, so I have a total of twenty
eight current carring conductors. Well, because the bundle includes tens,
they do not meet the criteria of three ten, fifteen
C one D because this whole criteria was based on
twelve gauges, and you treat the bundle as a bundle
because those tens are going to be putting off heat
that's going to be affected by what they're going to
be affecting those the opacity of those twelve gauge conductors. Now,
the exception was for you to have over twenty, but
then as you read it, it required the conductors to
still be twelve. So that means you can't even use
the exception because it demands the use of the exception
that it has to meet the rules in one, two,
and three. That means the conductors all in this bundle
have to be twelve gauge. So the fact that you
got ten gauge cables in there he moves your ability
to use anything in this allowance of three ten fifteen
C one D.
Speaker 2: So what do you end up having to do? Well,
you screwed.
Speaker 3: You have to treat them as twenty eight current care
and conductors, and you're gonna have to apply the forty
the multiplier forty five from the table three ten fifteen
C one and you're gonna apply it to the opacities
of the twelves, and you're gonna apply it to the
opacities of the tens.
Speaker 2: And that's just your new opacity.
Speaker 3: And again it may drop you, probably will drop you
below any usable value, especially with the twelve gage. So
it's so important to understand how these rules are applied.
And again the bundling part of it can be something
that we can argue until the sun goes down and
the sun comes up and your AHJ's got to make
the call. But in the general charging rule, it's very
clear that if they are bundled together doesn't say bundling,
but they are installed together without maintaining spacing, which is
slang for bundling continuously length longer than twenty four inches,
then you're going to have to apply the adjustment factors.
Speaker 2: The allowance under.
Speaker 3: D is simply saying, you know what, I get their bundled,
whether they're bundled one inch in this case or the
over twenty four, I get it, they're bundled. So you're
coming to me to find some relief. Okay, Well, I'm
gonna give you some.
Speaker 2: Relief as long as there's no jacket on it.
Speaker 3: There's not more than three current current conductors, and the
conductors are twelve gauge and you have not more than
twenty boom, I'm gonna give you some relief.
Speaker 2: You get me.
Speaker 3: And then next thing they're gonna go is, well, you
know what if you happen to have over twenty and
you have over twenty and you still meet rule, you
know the requirements of one, two, and three, then I'm
gonna let you get away with it. But here, you know,
here's the caveat. Okay, here's the caveat. I'm going to
let you do what. I'm going to let you use
sixty percent rather than the forty five percent, and that's
going to save your butt in some cases. But in
order to use this exception, it has to be twelve. Now,
there are some people out there that will say, I'm
sure there are that will say no. You know what,
if I don't have more than twenty of the twelves
and then I have the tens, then I can treat
each separately. So I can apply this allowance to the
twelves because it's not more than twenty. But then I
apply the general rule to the tens, okay, using the
summation of all the conductors, so it'd be twenty eight
current current conductors, and apply the forty five percent to
the tens. But I'm okay to ignore those that are
bundled that are not more than twenty. But that's not
really what the code says here. That bundle is treated
as one because it puts off mutual heating because you're bundling,
and that's going to affect the opacities of those twelves.
So at the end of the day, you know whether
they were tens or more twelves, does it matter. There's
still more than twenty current current conductors in that bundle, right,
And if that is the case overall bundle, then that's
the case if you want to apply the exception, then
it makes it very clear that its exception only will
apply if they're twelve gauge, and that is why the
exception references one, two, and three. So whatever you want
to make up in your mind and think that number
four allows you to isolate out the twelves from the
tens in a multiple bundle where you have different sizes,
then it kind of doesn't make sense when exception four
ends up referencing that. Okay, well, to do this, it
gives you the sixty percent you need to make sure
there's still all twelves. You get what I'm saying, Okay,
all right, and in order to apply at four not
more than twenty, then that has.
Speaker 2: To be twelves. Okay.
Speaker 3: So anyway you interpreted how you want, that's how I
look at it, and that's the only way to ensure
that you're not going to break down that insulation. I
encourage you to go over and read my blog because
I also bring up an example of non simultaneously energized
conductors that don't have to be counted as current carry conductors.
And I give an example of that where I might
have a raceway running to a piece of equipment that
is basically has the air conditioning loads in the furnace loads,
but neither one of them will be on at the
same time. So there might be six conductors in that raceway,
let's say, but only three of them at any given
time will be energized. So I only have to count
three rather than the total of six as current carry conductors,
because these three for the furnace cannot be energized as
the same time, let's say, as the other ones for
the AC system.
Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: So that is actually underneath the table in three ten
fifteen c.
Speaker 2: One. It is an asterisk.
Speaker 3: It reminds you when it comes to the number of conductors,
and it's the very last sentence. And so that may
save some people if they're running conductors in a race
way to a piece of equipment that cannot be They
might be running to two pieces of equipment that cannot
be energized at the same time.
Speaker 2: That may save somebody's butt. Okay. And also that.
Speaker 3: Note down there, or that that that asterix underneath it
also reminds you obviously that you're not going to be
using the grounding or bonding conductors as current carrying conductors.
People will argue, is but they carry fault current. Yes,
but they're not classified as current carrying conductors. Okay, so
they don't have to be counted as such. And where
do you see that three ten fifteen f Okay, go
read it, read it and weep in that type of thing.
So all right, all right, folks, that's about all I
probably wanted to talk about on today's episode. Hopefully got
something out of it. Encourage you to go read the blog.
It's free, get our mobile app. If you really want
to learn the NEC good or you have opinions on
this article, go over to the blog and at the
bottom sign in and leave your comment. Don't be shy.
I'm not gonna rip you, not gonna delete you or
block you. Unless you're nasty, then I'll block you. But
if you just have a legitimate comment, man, get involved, guys.
This is what it's all about. To be involved and
to learn the NEEC together. And maybe I'm wrong, maybe
you think I'm interpreting something different.
Speaker 2: That's perfectly okay. I'm here to learn too, so okay,
I'm not a know it all.
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to give you some experience from thirty
nine years of working in the code where I develop
my opinions from.
Speaker 2: And so good. I love a good debate so let's
do it.
Speaker 3: All right, all right, folks, Until next time, Stay safe,
God blessed, and I appreciate you all taking your time
to listen today catch us. Make sure you subscribe to
our podcast. We'll catch you on upcoming episode.
Speaker 2: Take care.
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Speaker 3: Mm HM