Speaker 1: It's nights with Dan Ray. I'm telling you easy Boston video.
Speaker 2: Dan Walkin's like very much as we head into our
Speaker 2: tenth hour here on this Tuesday night. And wasn't it
Speaker 2: cold out there today? Imagine? Must not have been a
Speaker 2: fun night at Fenway Park. It wasn't a fun night
Speaker 2: at Fenway Park because the Red Sox lost for the
Speaker 2: second night in a row to the Toronto Blue Jays.
Speaker 2: But the weather, they must have not had too many
Speaker 2: too much in beer sales. I would guess hot chocolate
Speaker 2: was the hot commodity tonight at the old Ballpark, that's
Speaker 2: for sure. So the Red Sox just six and six
Speaker 2: back to five hundred and hey, season is still young.
Speaker 2: They haven't even hit the ten mark of the season. Okay,
Speaker 2: many of you, I think know about a couple of
Speaker 2: those websites there. One is called ancestry dot com and
Speaker 2: the other is twenty three and me uh. And those
Speaker 2: websites that used to heavily advertise on television. I don't
Speaker 2: know that they are still well. One is in bankruptcy.
Speaker 2: But they would tell you a lot, or they would
Speaker 2: tell you that they had the ability to tell you
Speaker 2: a lot about your ancestry. About your heritage, about whether
Speaker 2: or not you were, you know, all from one part
Speaker 2: of the world, or if you uh, your your heritage
Speaker 2: came from many different countries. And they did that with
Speaker 2: generally a DNA sample that you would send voluntarily, and
Speaker 2: it was fun. A lot of people learned a lot
Speaker 2: about their background. I never did it. I never had
Speaker 2: the curiosity because I feel I know where my people
Speaker 2: came from, you know, the old sod And I didn't
Speaker 2: think that, although I guess I was a little bit
Speaker 2: intrigued by it, because look, there could be all of
Speaker 2: us if you go back five, six, eight, ten generations,
Speaker 2: maybe there's somebody from a different part of the world
Speaker 2: in your background, in your family's background. Well, twenty three
Speaker 2: of me is now file for bankruptcy. Ancestry dot Com,
Speaker 2: I think is still in business. But a guy that
Speaker 2: knows a lot more about all of this stuff is
Speaker 2: Jason Kelly. Jason is what's called an activism director at
Speaker 2: the Electronic Frontier Foundation. So first of all, Jason, tell
Speaker 2: us what the Electronic Frontier Foundation is, and then what
Speaker 2: is an activism director. I'm sure that when you were
Speaker 2: ten years old and they asked you in school, Jason
Speaker 2: what do you want to be when you grow up?
Speaker 3: I want to be an activism director.
Speaker 2: Missus Smith, I'm sure that was not what you just said.
Speaker 4: How are you?
Speaker 5: You're right about that? Thanks for having me on, Dan.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I wanted to be a writer when I was
Speaker 6: a kid, and you know, I do a little writing now.
Speaker 6: As an activism director, I somewhat get to fulfill that.
Speaker 6: The The Electronic Frontier Foundation is a impact litigation law
Speaker 6: firm that's been around for over thirty years, not with
Speaker 6: me the whole time. I've only been there about a decade,
Speaker 6: but we started in the nineties and you can think
Speaker 6: of us kind of like the ASLU.
Speaker 5: It's a it's.
Speaker 6: An organization that pushes for laws to be more privacy protective,
Speaker 6: more free speech protective. But our focus is primarily around
Speaker 6: digital technology around you know, the growth of technology and
Speaker 6: laws that impact what you do online. You know what
Speaker 6: computers know about you, you know what companies collect, that
Speaker 6: sort of thing, and you know, the activism team focuses
Speaker 6: on a lot of different stuff, but we think of
Speaker 6: ourselves as one of the three prongs in the in
Speaker 6: the fight that e FF is engaged in. So we've
Speaker 6: got the legal team, which does impact litigations. So you know,
Speaker 6: a law comes out or a company is you know,
Speaker 6: taking advantage of someone, we go to court and file
Speaker 6: a lot of briefs and things like that you can imagine,
Speaker 6: just like the ACLU, and they join us in a
Speaker 6: lot of cases as well. And then we've got a
Speaker 6: technologist department that's like the smarty Pants that really understand
Speaker 6: how computers work, and they help us understand new technology.
Speaker 6: You know, we talk with people in the Senate and
Speaker 6: they help everyone who needs to know how these kinds
Speaker 6: of things work understand them. And then the Activism team
Speaker 6: is sort of like the Comms department, you know. We
Speaker 6: we make sure that that people can understand the confusing laws,
Speaker 6: the confusing technology, and we overall try to get people
Speaker 6: to take action. When there's let's say a law that
Speaker 6: Congress is debating or a state is you know, putting forward,
Speaker 6: we try to tell people, hey, here's what this law does.
Speaker 6: If you care about it, you know, reach out to
Speaker 6: your representa and let them know either way, which whichever
Speaker 6: way it is. And you know, we were very very occasionally,
Speaker 6: once every few years we may put on a protest
Speaker 6: or something like that. A few years ago, I flew
Speaker 6: well I didn't fly it, but we flew a plane
Speaker 6: over Apple's headquarters because they were getting ready to make
Speaker 6: some changes to how they encrypt their their devices that
Speaker 6: we didn't like and a bunch of people were worried
Speaker 6: about and we won that fight. So they didn't do that,
Speaker 6: and that was that was one of those little stunts
Speaker 6: that you know, only an activism director can pull off.
Speaker 5: So that's that's the basis of it.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, real quickly, we're going to talk about twenty
Speaker 2: three and Me and the filing for bankruptcy and the
Speaker 2: implications thereof. And I know that there's probably a bunch
Speaker 2: of these companies out there, but the only ones that
Speaker 2: I really saw advertised on TV to an extent was
Speaker 2: twenty three in me in Ancestry dot Com. Am I
Speaker 2: missing anything? I'd be other than those? As the two
Speaker 2: big companies that are in this are.
Speaker 5: Those are the big ones. You're correct about that.
Speaker 6: There are a few that I don't exactly understand, you know,
Speaker 6: what their business model is. But for example, there's ged Match,
Speaker 6: is a company that has you know, let's say, ten
Speaker 6: percent of the customer base of ancestry dot Com.
Speaker 5: There are a.
Speaker 6: Couple that are you know, that size, and they don't
Speaker 6: have as you know, I think that everyone.
Speaker 5: Understands they don't have quite as much information.
Speaker 6: They might be a little cheaper, but yeah, basically there
Speaker 6: are those two in the in the field.
Speaker 2: Okay. So now one of the big, the big companies,
Speaker 2: twenty three in ME his file for bankruptcy, and the
Speaker 2: article that I read said that a lot of people
Speaker 2: are a little freaked out about this because obviously, when
Speaker 2: twenty three and ME files for bankruptcy, there are some
Speaker 2: elements of that country that have some value and they
Speaker 2: have to dispose of that the material, whether it's you know,
Speaker 2: desks and chairs or whether it's information panels that might
Speaker 2: be of some value to companies. So it's theoretical that
Speaker 2: that people could have this information which they confided into
Speaker 2: twenty three and meters, which now is going to be
Speaker 2: be bartered or you know, was sold to another country,
Speaker 2: and that's kind of freaking people out rightfully.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I think so, you know, I think of
Speaker 6: this a little bit like if you you know, gave
Speaker 6: your credit card information to a company and that company
Speaker 6: got bought by another company, and now you know, you're
Speaker 6: not necessarily worried that they're going to run your credit card,
Speaker 6: but you never really know. And in this case, instead
Speaker 6: of a credit card which you can cancel, which you
Speaker 6: can change the number and you know, block and everything,
Speaker 6: your DNA is not going to change. And so anybody
Speaker 6: who has that it forever, and they can't necessarily just
Speaker 6: you know, do a scan and learn everything in the
Speaker 6: world about you. It's it's more complicated than that. But
Speaker 6: they do have a lot of information that they can
Speaker 6: use in you know, a couple of different ways that
Speaker 6: I think people should know about, and people I think
Speaker 6: are rightfully concerned that they're not going to know what
Speaker 6: happens with that information. I mean, I think that's really
Speaker 6: what freaks people out, is is that uncertainty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about process, what people have
Speaker 2: done and if they have Anyone who asks questions, by
Speaker 2: the way, can join the conversation. But I'm going to
Speaker 2: ask you a few questions, so don't assume I'm going
Speaker 2: to ask the right questions. Ladies and gentlemen. Many of
Speaker 2: you out there know more about this than I do,
Speaker 2: but probably none of you know as much about it
Speaker 2: as my guest does. So feel free to line up,
Speaker 2: get some questions in and I have some questions when
Speaker 2: we come back as well. Six one seven, two, five,
Speaker 2: four ten thirty, six nine three, one ten thirty. Those
Speaker 2: are that you brought. Those are the two on air lines.
Speaker 2: We'll get you on night side, and I'm not sure
Speaker 2: what we're gonna do later on tonight. So if this
Speaker 2: interest you, feel free, whatevers you ask. As I say,
Speaker 2: I told you many times, there's no such thing as
Speaker 2: a dumb question. I learned that in law school because
Speaker 2: that's the question you don't have the courage to ask
Speaker 2: the professor. And that's the question that comes up on
Speaker 2: the midterm or on the final exam. So with that
Speaker 2: admonission six one seven, two, four thirty, six one seven,
Speaker 2: nine three, one tenth thirty, we'll be right back on
Speaker 2: night Side with Dan Ray here on Boston's WBZ. And
Speaker 2: it's more than Boston's WBZ. We have listeners right now
Speaker 2: with this hour all Oliver Eastern, the eastern half of
Speaker 2: Canada and the eastern half of the United States. Back
Speaker 2: on night Side right after this.
Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm delling YOUBZ Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2: With me. It is Jason Kelly he's the activism director
Speaker 2: for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Now, now don't don't get
Speaker 2: you know, concerned about this, but if you've ever been
Speaker 2: a patient, if you've ever been a client twenty three
Speaker 2: in me, I think you've got to listen real carefully.
Speaker 2: What advice, Jason, would you give to anyone who was
Speaker 2: a client of twenty three and me submitted their DNA
Speaker 2: sample And this might be five years ago, ten years ago,
Speaker 2: there around for a long time. What do they what
Speaker 2: should they be concerned about, and what can they do?
Speaker 2: At this point, the companies in bankruptcy, it's eventually going
Speaker 2: to disappear. What can be done? What can be done?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 6: I think the biggest thing people need to know is
Speaker 6: that they can ask the company pretty quickly to delete
Speaker 6: the data that they've collected. It's not a super long process.
Speaker 6: It's not something that's going to take more than you know,
Speaker 6: ten twenty minutes. And that really, I think, for a
Speaker 6: lot of people is going to give them peace of mind.
Speaker 6: It's just going to make them feel a little bit
Speaker 6: better about the fact that this company could sell that
Speaker 6: data to pretty much anybody, and we don't have a
Speaker 6: choice in where it goes. And that process is fairly simple.
Speaker 6: You can log into the site, you go to the settings,
Speaker 6: you go to your data, and you basically just say
Speaker 6: can you delete the data there? There's an option for it.
Speaker 6: It might be a little complicated. They have to email
Speaker 6: you and you have to email them back. You know,
Speaker 6: if you're like me, you might have lost the password,
Speaker 6: maybe you haven't logged into it since you did it,
Speaker 6: so you know, it's not going to necessarily be the
Speaker 6: easiest thing in the world.
Speaker 5: But they do allow.
Speaker 6: You to do that, and that can delete both of
Speaker 6: the data that they have that's on their let's say
Speaker 6: they're back end in their system. And then you can
Speaker 6: also request that they destroy the genetic data if they've
Speaker 6: got that on hand as well, so you can.
Speaker 5: Make those requests.
Speaker 6: And I would recommend it for most people who are
Speaker 6: concerned at all about this, because otherwise it's just going
Speaker 6: to sort of eat away at.
Speaker 5: You, and I think it should.
Speaker 6: You know, a company buying this data can more or
Speaker 6: less know whether you have certain diseases. They could put
Speaker 6: together a list of connections with your relatives. And I
Speaker 6: don't know exactly what they're going to do with that information,
Speaker 6: but I don't like someone having it when I didn't
Speaker 6: intend them to, and there's just sort of an unease
Speaker 6: that comes with that. And I think most people are
Speaker 6: going to feel better if they go online, go to
Speaker 6: the account, log in, go to the settings, and just
Speaker 6: choose to delete my data, and you can download the data
Speaker 6: before you do that. That'll give you a little bit
Speaker 6: of information. You won't be able to use the site
Speaker 6: anymore after you request that they delete it, but you
Speaker 6: will have a little bit of that information. And some
Speaker 6: of it you can download is going.
Speaker 5: To be gibberish.
Speaker 6: It's the DNA data results that are going to look
Speaker 6: like computer code to most people, including me. But in
Speaker 6: the case of another service popping up that can use
Speaker 6: that information in the future that you feel comfortable giving
Speaker 6: it to, you could reuse it if you need to.
Speaker 2: That is all really great advice. One of the things
Speaker 2: that has been controversial, and we can get into this
Speaker 2: a little bit more in depth, is that police agencies
Speaker 2: on occasion have been able to use this type of
Speaker 2: data to sort of almost triangulate someone within your family
Speaker 2: who might have been guilty of a crime. And explain
Speaker 2: how that works, because if you can explain in a
Speaker 2: way that people will understand well and appreciate it. Give
Speaker 2: me an idea how that works.
Speaker 6: So let's say you've got a crime scene with a
Speaker 6: coffee cup on it, and that coffee cup has you know,
Speaker 6: somebody's DNA because they took a drink. Yep, the police
Speaker 6: can swab that. They can run it through basically the
Speaker 6: same kinds of systems that twenty three and me used
Speaker 6: and it you know, the way it looks when they
Speaker 6: get out the data on the other end is that
Speaker 6: it's it's basically a series of letters and numbers. And
Speaker 6: if they do everything right, and the software is not
Speaker 6: always perfect, but if they do everything right, they can
Speaker 6: ask twenty three and meter for them to run a
Speaker 6: DNA sample through their database. They could do that with
Speaker 6: any of these companies, and some of them require warrants
Speaker 6: and some of them don't.
Speaker 2: And the DNA data sample, and the DNA data sample
Speaker 2: they would be running through would be the DNA sample
Speaker 2: that in this hypothetical they lifted from a coffee cup
Speaker 2: at a crime scene under the belief that perhaps the
Speaker 2: person who committed the crime that could be their DNA.
Speaker 2: That could be their DNA that's on the coffee cup
Speaker 2: and what happens next? What happens next?
Speaker 6: So they get a match, and that match isn't necessarily
Speaker 6: the exact person that was responsible for leaving the DNA behind.
Speaker 6: But if you're related to someone who was at that
Speaker 6: crime scene and put that DNA on that coffee cup
Speaker 6: and you put your your information into twenty three and meters,
Speaker 6: you will come up as the match. So they will
Speaker 6: look at these two comparisons and say, well, this person
Speaker 6: isn't the exact person, but they have a basically a
Speaker 6: you know, one in four connection to that person, which
Speaker 6: means that it's probably their cousin or probably their you know,
Speaker 6: sibling or something like that. And if more than one
Speaker 6: person has put that data into the database, they, like
Speaker 6: you said, triangulate it and they can pretty quickly, you know,
Speaker 6: using all the other police skills.
Speaker 5: That they have, and you're out.
Speaker 6: Okay, well who lived there at.
Speaker 5: The time exactly?
Speaker 6: They can get more information to figure out we think
Speaker 6: it's this person, not necessarily you, but someone you're related to.
Speaker 2: Well they could the police can show up at your
Speaker 2: house with or without a warrned and they can say, gee,
Speaker 2: would like to have a conversation with you. That's most people.
Speaker 2: Most people are going to say, oh, sure, how can
Speaker 2: I help you? Now? Some are going to say, do
Speaker 2: you have a war, I don't have to talk to you,
Speaker 2: or whatever. But that's only going to raise the suspicion
Speaker 2: of the police.
Speaker 6: Maybe you know too much about the cousin and yeah.
Speaker 2: So in other words, so now they're going to say, gee,
Speaker 2: do you have any relatives, you know, cousins or uncles
Speaker 2: or aunts or whatever, who happen to live in pick
Speaker 2: At City, Phoenix, Arizona. Uh, well, yeah, my cousin, Herbie
Speaker 2: lives in Phoenix area. Really, how long has Herbie been there? Oh,
Speaker 2: he moved out there and now ninety and we haven't
Speaker 2: seen him since. Oh really, Okay, Now they may be saying, hmmm,
Speaker 2: this is the where this crime occurred. They may not
Speaker 2: even tell you that. Okay. They just might at that
Speaker 2: point say thank you very much, And they might then
Speaker 2: be able to solve that case by spotting Herbie walking
Speaker 2: down the street with another cup of coffee, and when
Speaker 2: Herbie throws that cup of coffee away, they recover and
Speaker 2: they have a DNA match. Or they may put you
Speaker 2: in the impossibly very uncomfortable position of saying, hey, we
Speaker 2: believe that you know a relative of yours may have
Speaker 2: committed this horrific crime and would like to ask you
Speaker 2: some questions about your family tree. I mean think about it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, any anybody could be in this situation,
Speaker 6: if you've never even committed a crime, It's very possible.
Speaker 6: The data from research has shown that there I mentioned
Speaker 6: one of the smaller services, ged match service has about
Speaker 6: one million users. And just because of how similar you
Speaker 6: know people are and how related people are, if.
Speaker 4: You go back a little ways.
Speaker 6: If somebody found your DNA and a coffee cup and
Speaker 6: researchers had access to ged match's service, they could pretty
Speaker 6: quickly find who you were even on one on out
Speaker 6: of one million. Now twenty three and meters has fifteen million,
Speaker 6: so everybody probably has a relative in this database. That's
Speaker 6: one of the things to worry about is that even
Speaker 6: even if you've never used it, you know, you might
Speaker 6: want to check around with your with your relatives and
Speaker 6: see who has because even if you are not in it,
Speaker 6: you you kind of are, you know, I mean most
Speaker 6: of us probably are at some level based on a relative.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it's it affects everybody, even if you know
Speaker 6: you've never used it, and even if you've never committed
Speaker 6: a crime, because they might still come to your door.
Speaker 6: And also they might get it wrong. You know, just
Speaker 6: because you're d is on that coffee cup where someone
Speaker 6: else's is doesn't necessarily mean that that's the person who
Speaker 6: committed the crime.
Speaker 2: My guest is Jason Kelly. Jason's an activisim director for
Speaker 2: the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and we're talking about if your
Speaker 2: DNA has been voluntarily submitted to twenty three and meters
Speaker 2: that company has filed for bankruptcy. UH. Feel free to
Speaker 2: join the conversation. Any questions you like. My name's Dan Ray.
Speaker 2: This is Nightside. We'll get some callers coming up on
Speaker 2: the other side. Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten
Speaker 2: thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty. We'll
Speaker 2: get to phone calls, more questions for my guest, Jason Kelly.
Speaker 1: Right after this, you're on Night Side with Dan Ray.
Speaker 1: I'm Easy Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2: All right, Thank you very much, Dan Watkins. My guest
Speaker 2: is Jason Kelly. He's an activism director with the Electronic
Speaker 2: Frontier Foundation. The point of this hour tonight is to
Speaker 2: make you aware that when you submit information about yourself
Speaker 2: DNA information to private companies. I'm sure you sign a
Speaker 2: lot of documents and I'm sure that you give them
Speaker 2: permission to maintain the file, and you don't read the
Speaker 2: fine print, and you're interested in finding out. Gee, am
Speaker 2: I twenty percent German? And my fifteen percent? Kenyon? What
Speaker 2: is my background? Do I have Spanish? You know, that's
Speaker 2: the way that they get you to do. And of
Speaker 2: course you pay money to have this service provided. And
Speaker 2: now with this company in bankruptcy, it's possible. Now Jason
Speaker 2: has been kind enough to explain what you might be
Speaker 2: able to do to eliminate or to get rid of
Speaker 2: some of the information that you have voluntarily provided. However,
Speaker 2: you may have some questions, and so what we're going
Speaker 2: to do is we're going to go to phone calls.
Speaker 2: We've laid it out for you as clearly as we can.
Speaker 2: You know, we live in an age where all of
Speaker 2: us give out information and all of us get bombarded
Speaker 2: with phone calls, get bombarded with spam emails, the more ways.
Speaker 2: And I'm guilty. I'm I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter,
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram. I'm because that's my business to communicate
Speaker 2: with people. But I probably would be doing most of
Speaker 2: those anyway, but it puts us we have you have
Speaker 2: basically walked out into the middle of the town square
Speaker 2: and stripped yourself naked and said here I am, here's
Speaker 2: everything you need to know about me. Jason. How far
Speaker 2: off is that analogy?
Speaker 6: I think that's about one hundred percent correct. Unless someone
Speaker 6: lives in the woods and doesn't have a phone or
Speaker 6: a computer, I think that's pretty much where most of
Speaker 6: us are at. And and it's you know, whether it's
Speaker 6: DNA or your location because you carry your phone around,
Speaker 6: or the websites you visit, you know, all this information
Speaker 6: can be collected and and what's worrisome for most people,
Speaker 6: I think is it's not just that one company knows
Speaker 6: you know, Google knows where your phone was, or Apple
Speaker 6: knows where your phone was, and then another company knows
Speaker 6: where you know, where you went online, what kind of
Speaker 6: Facebook pages you like, and then another company has your
Speaker 6: DNA information and might know what kind of diseases you
Speaker 6: are predisposed to. What worries people and should is that
Speaker 6: that information often gets collected by data brokers and put
Speaker 6: into a big profile and so that you know, not
Speaker 6: everyone has access to that, but but that's how it
Speaker 6: all happened, so that they can then do what you said.
Speaker 6: They can send you ads, they can you know, make
Speaker 6: phone calls things like that to try to get you
Speaker 6: to buy things, and in worse cases, you know, depending
Speaker 6: on what's in that information, they could even blackmail you.
Speaker 6: I mean that's one of the cost terms that absolutely
Speaker 6: I would have you know, if a company bought my
Speaker 6: DNA data and it said I had some predisposition for
Speaker 6: a disease and I was a politician or something. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, there's lots of things you could do with
Speaker 6: that information to make money that aren't just advertising. Obviously,
Speaker 6: their laws theoretically protecting you from that, but in the
Speaker 6: case of a bankruptcy or in the case of a
Speaker 6: data breach, which twenty three and me has had in
Speaker 6: the past, you never know what's going to happen. So people,
Speaker 6: I think, who are you know, worried about this absolutely
Speaker 6: should delete their data.
Speaker 5: They don't need to.
Speaker 6: I don't think they need to run screaming into the
Speaker 6: woods quite yet, but they probably should take more precautions.
Speaker 2: All right, let's see what people have to say. Let
Speaker 2: me go first off to Scott in Quincy, Massachusetts. Scott, welcome,
Speaker 2: you were first this hour on Nights Out with my guess,
Speaker 2: Jason Kelly gright Head.
Speaker 7: Scott, Well, great, great show, great guest. So I work
Speaker 7: at an academic medical center and I have my d
Speaker 7: n A two different research thanks, so I'm not that
Speaker 7: squeamish about it. And two questions. One what is about
Speaker 7: the fate of the database? And the second one is
Speaker 7: I'd like to ask Jason about the eff So I
Speaker 7: think that the database should go to the people in
Speaker 7: the FBI who maintain the Singapore database or the FBI's database,
Speaker 7: so that it could be be used for crime fighting.
Speaker 7: What do you guys think about that?
Speaker 2: By the way, are you moving around like in a
Speaker 2: in a tunnel or something, Scott, what's going on in
Speaker 2: the background? Are you okay?
Speaker 7: I get the phone up against my head and I'm
Speaker 7: walking from the hospital past North Station.
Speaker 5: To me, No proble.
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure weren't getting mugged or
Speaker 2: something like that. That's all, no problem, okay. So you
Speaker 2: would like to see this this database given over to
Speaker 2: the FBI or a police authorities. I don't think Jason's
Speaker 2: going to buy into that, but let's see what he
Speaker 2: has to say, Jason goright ahead.
Speaker 6: Well, I get where you're coming from. I really do
Speaker 6: you know they caught the Golden State killer using data
Speaker 6: from these databases, and I have trouble saying that's a
Speaker 6: bad thing. But on the other hand, you know, I
Speaker 6: have a twenty three and B I didn't necessarily say, yeah,
Speaker 6: I'm happy with, you know, the government doing whatever it
Speaker 6: wants to do with my DNA. And just to give
Speaker 6: you an example, you know, right now there are laws
Speaker 6: that protect you from your insurance company denying you coverage
Speaker 6: based on your genetic information. But those laws aren't necessarily
Speaker 6: going to be on the books forever. And there are
Speaker 6: things I think could be dangerous about giving the government
Speaker 6: that data. Now, if you want to give it to them,
Speaker 6: if you want to send it over to them, you
Speaker 6: know you can. I think people can do that if
Speaker 6: they think it might help crime fighting. But I think
Speaker 6: most people, at the very least should be given the
Speaker 6: option to say, yeah, that's fine, you can have that
Speaker 6: or not, because the government has a lot of authority,
Speaker 6: it has a lot of power, and it's just it's
Speaker 6: a little worrisome I think to know that they would
Speaker 6: have you know that.
Speaker 5: Much detailed information.
Speaker 6: About you, because you might like who's in charge of
Speaker 6: the government one year, you might not like who's in
Speaker 6: charge of the next year, and you can never quite
Speaker 6: tell what's going to change. So I get where you're
Speaker 6: coming from, Scott, I really do. But you know, for me,
Speaker 6: I think it's it's just a question of consent. Just
Speaker 6: like if you want the government to have other information
Speaker 6: about you, you know, usually you have to give it over.
Speaker 6: This is something you don't have to give over, and
Speaker 6: if you want to, fantastic. But I think people who
Speaker 6: you know, submitted their data should be given the option
Speaker 6: at least to say yeah, that's fine with me. And
Speaker 6: and regardless you know, a warrant usually these companies respond
Speaker 6: perfectly well to them, so they can use the databases
Speaker 6: even though they don't own them right now, that would
Speaker 6: include the FBI, So I think it's a it's a
Speaker 6: good point, but you know me, personally, I would rather
Speaker 6: fewer people have that information and more more control over
Speaker 6: it wherever it is.
Speaker 7: Good good And the other thing I wanted to ask
Speaker 7: about esf IS and maybe Dan could connect us off
Speaker 7: the air through the producer. So I'm a medical equipment repairer,
Speaker 7: and I have a lot of trouble with these big
Speaker 7: companies refusing to provide me technical information or so many
Speaker 7: parts to repair my hospital's medical equipment, even when patients
Speaker 7: needed to be repaired quickly. It's a big problem. Is
Speaker 7: that on the EFF radar screen? And could I connect
Speaker 7: with you over that topic?
Speaker 6: Yeah, that absolutely is. We call those laws that would
Speaker 6: make it easier for people to repair their devices, to
Speaker 6: get technical support, to get like detailed device brochures and
Speaker 6: guides about repairing, we call those right to repair laws,
Speaker 6: and the unfortunately, due to a bunch of different things,
Speaker 6: but mostly due to something called the Digital Millennium Copyright
Speaker 6: Act that passed a few decades ago, any tool that
Speaker 6: has a computer in it, companies have a lot more
Speaker 6: power to stop you from repairing it, whether that's a
Speaker 6: phone or a tractor or medical equipment. And every few
Speaker 6: years there's basically a big meeting where the government and
Speaker 6: a bunch of different groups come together, and EFF goes
Speaker 6: to those meetings to push for more devices to be
Speaker 6: exempted from those laws. So right now you know there's
Speaker 6: a number of devices that are exempted from those laws.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure exactly how medical devices.
Speaker 5: Fit into that.
Speaker 6: But I can say that this is the first year
Speaker 6: ever that all fifty states have right to repair laws
Speaker 6: in discussion. So they've been introduced in all fifty states.
Speaker 6: They don't all cover everything. Some of them cover tractors only,
Speaker 6: some of them cover video game consoles, and it's a
Speaker 6: movement that's growing. I highly recommend if you're interested in
Speaker 6: that kind of thing. And this is something that affects everyone.
Speaker 6: It affects the environment, it affects how costly everything is.
Speaker 6: You can go to repair dot org. That's the repair
Speaker 6: association that helps move this forward through the through the laws.
Speaker 6: They're doing some great work and most likely in Massachusetts
Speaker 6: there is either a law already on the books or
Speaker 6: one being put forward that would improve right to repair
Speaker 6: options for p people.
Speaker 2: So Jason, Jason, Jason, Hey to do this? Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna come up on a commercial break here. How about this?
Speaker 2: Can I have Scott leave his phone number with my
Speaker 2: producer Rob and when we finish at eleven o'clock, would
Speaker 2: you be kind enough to maybe give Scott a call
Speaker 2: at some point. I'd rather give him your number than
Speaker 2: us give him. I'd rather give you his number than
Speaker 2: us give him your number. If you know what I'm
Speaker 2: saying is.
Speaker 5: That okay, Yeah, no problem, absolutely, Scott.
Speaker 2: You hang on there. Rob will take your number and
Speaker 2: Jason will be back in touch with you. Take very
Speaker 2: quick break. Want to get to more phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty, six, one, seven,
Speaker 2: nine thirty. Coming right back on night Side, Matt and
Speaker 2: Chris are coming up. Got a little bit of room
Speaker 2: for you if you want to try to sneak in,
Speaker 2: feel free. Coming back on night Side.
Speaker 1: It's night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: We're talking with Jason Kelly. Jason is with the Electronic
Speaker 2: Frontier Foundation, and we're talking about privacy. Line is the
Speaker 2: privacy issues. But the issue here is that twenty three
Speaker 2: in me has gone bankrupt and the material said you
Speaker 2: might have submitted to them, folks, could be part of
Speaker 2: the bankruptcy proceeding. You have an opportunity to delete that
Speaker 2: information if you'd like, let me go. Matt is up next. Matt,
Speaker 2: you were next on night Side with my guest Jason Kelly.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Matt, Hey, how y'all doing.
Speaker 8: So Less of a question and more of a kind
Speaker 8: of a generalized you know, I really liked how everything
Speaker 8: was laid out and how you all explained it. You know, basically,
Speaker 8: you take one of these tests and they have your information,
Speaker 8: and that's, you know, to me, a deterrent. But I
Speaker 8: feel these companies twenty three and me, one of these
Speaker 8: things they highlight is like colo rectal pros state and
Speaker 8: some of those things that are in the family which
Speaker 8: they probably can get from the DNA, and they're voting
Speaker 8: that as a way to find a link to where
Speaker 8: I guess your DNA and families DNA could be linked together.
Speaker 5: However, I don't think.
Speaker 2: That's true, Matt. I mean, I think that what it
Speaker 2: comes down to is that if they have your DNA,
Speaker 2: they can they can run your DNA through computer systems,
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's got anything to do with
Speaker 2: with diseases. There's probably a million people in their system.
Speaker 2: We've had colo rectal cancer and it's not gonna You're
Speaker 2: not gonna be related to a million people. But if
Speaker 2: they don't connections with five people and five of them
Speaker 2: have a proclivity or a medical history, that might be helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I get that, But where are you going with this?
Speaker 2: Because I'm trying to one other call which I want
Speaker 2: to try.
Speaker 8: To h yeah, no, no, no, absolutely, Here's where I'm
Speaker 8: going with it. I was just on their website and
Speaker 8: this is one of the services they were offering that
Speaker 8: they could relate some traits to. So where I'm going
Speaker 8: with it is, isn't there some sort of law, I
Speaker 8: mean where they cannot just pull that information your DNA
Speaker 8: off of there, or is there anything warrant wise you
Speaker 8: know Fourth Amendment that is protecting that or j.
Speaker 2: Lawyer, Let's get Jason to respond to that question. Go ahead, Jason,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 6: I'm not a lawyer. I mean there are laws, they're
Speaker 6: different in every state. The genetic privacy laws that are
Speaker 6: across the whole country don't really apply in this scenario
Speaker 6: because you have voluntarily given your data over to the company.
Speaker 6: So depending on which state you're in, you know, a
Speaker 6: warrant has to come because twenty three and ME says
Speaker 6: that they will only respond to warrants to let police
Speaker 6: sort of go through the database. But a different company
Speaker 6: might change that policy, and if they sell the data
Speaker 6: to a different company, they could theoretically change that policy
Speaker 6: as well, and they're not supposed to do that. That's
Speaker 6: the FDC has said that when you, you know, go
Speaker 6: bankrupt or you're acquired, you should hold on to the
Speaker 6: same privacy policy.
Speaker 5: But the FDC has to enforce that law.
Speaker 6: So you know, there are different genetic privacy laws in
Speaker 6: the books. They cover different things. In the case of
Speaker 6: the data that you've given A twenty three and me,
Speaker 6: you do have some protections, but I'll just say there
Speaker 6: are not as many as you would probably think, and
Speaker 6: in the case of an acquisition, they're fewer than you
Speaker 6: would like.
Speaker 2: Let me make sure that we understand, Matt. Have you
Speaker 2: submitted your DNA to twenty three?
Speaker 4: In me?
Speaker 5: I would never submit my good.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're okay, Matt. I want to try to
Speaker 2: get one more.
Speaker 5: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 8: You should be going back, all right.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Let me go to Chris. Chris, down to the cape,
Speaker 2: got you in under the wire?
Speaker 1: Here?
Speaker 2: Go ahead, you're on with Jason Kelly.
Speaker 4: Hie. Good night, I mean good evening.
Speaker 2: Anything, right, don't say good night yet, go ahead.
Speaker 4: Chris, not good night yet? Right. I've always advised people
Speaker 4: against coughing up their DNA unless they're forced to. In
Speaker 4: the Massachusetts if you're a serious FEMI and defendant, you
Speaker 4: end up coughing it up. But you should always oppose
Speaker 4: that because it's not only your DNA, as I understand
Speaker 4: it to be, but perpetually for all of your successors.
Speaker 4: So if you have a criminal descendant, they're going to
Speaker 4: be stuck with your DNA and they're going to be connected.
Speaker 4: I also understood that with ancestry dot Com when you
Speaker 4: voluntarily and this other corporation one too, whatever it.
Speaker 3: Is, that yeah, that you cough up your DNA to them,
Speaker 3: And so many people are excited in family members that
Speaker 3: I've advised against doing this.
Speaker 4: Oh that's great. We will be able to put our
Speaker 4: whole ancestry together. And isn't that a good thing to know? Well,
Speaker 4: it turns out that in that fine print paperwork that
Speaker 4: Dan referred to earlier, that that gets sold to like China,
Speaker 4: and they find out about what your particular profile is
Speaker 4: very personally medical and otherwise, and then can either market
Speaker 4: it sell it.
Speaker 2: Yet told you, what are you a lawyer?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 2: I suspect you are. Do I know you? I have
Speaker 2: a friend.
Speaker 4: I always oppose you what I always oppose any motions
Speaker 4: of the commonweal.
Speaker 2: I understand that. So therefore you're a defense lawyer. So
Speaker 2: your last name doesn't begin with the letter M, does it.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to I know a couple of lawyers down
Speaker 2: there in the Cape.
Speaker 4: No, okay, okay, cal An asked, no problem rhymes with rain?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 2: If I know you tell me if no, No.
Speaker 4: I was involved in a in a cough up a
Speaker 4: DNA that in that very famous Cape murder case in
Speaker 4: the in the Outer Cape where the district attorney at
Speaker 4: the time, good guy, good da Michael Ah. It's round
Speaker 4: up of people that happened to live in Provincetown, Truro,
Speaker 4: Wellfleet or east Ham to cough up their DNA at
Speaker 4: various piece of joints, and the wives and girlfriend saying, well,
Speaker 4: why wouldn't you give up your DNA if you're not guilty?
Speaker 2: No, I get it, I get it. Chris Well, I'm
Speaker 2: flat out of time. I wish you'd called earlier. You
Speaker 2: would be a really interesting call. Thanks for checking in,
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, but I got to get out of
Speaker 2: the way for the eleven o'clock newscast and thank my guest.
Speaker 2: Talk again, my friend. Keep in touch. Okay, all right,
Speaker 2: thank you, Chris Jason, Thank you very much. Hellas, how
Speaker 2: can people get more information on your organization, the Electronic
Speaker 2: Frontier Foundation.
Speaker 6: Well, they can go to EFF dot org and I
Speaker 6: put up a quick link. If they go to e
Speaker 6: FF dot org slash twenty three in meters, we've got
Speaker 6: some instructions there for people to delete their data. Just
Speaker 6: follow the link there. But yeah, we you know, we're
Speaker 6: a nonprofit organization. We're members supported. So if people are
Speaker 6: interested in learning more, just go to e FF dot
Speaker 6: org and you'll learn all the things that are happening
Speaker 6: in the law right now and just in general with
Speaker 6: technology and your digital rights.
Speaker 2: And as they say in church, if you like what
Speaker 2: they do, be as generous as your means, permit. Chris Jason,
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate the time you
Speaker 2: spent with us tonight, and perhaps we'll do it again.
Speaker 5: Okay, thanks so much, Dan, great, great talking to you.
Speaker 2: Very welcome. Right back at you. Here comes the eleven
Speaker 2: o'clock News. Yeah, we're going to talk about what happened
Speaker 2: again today on Wall Street. Trust me on that. Maybe
Speaker 2: you're ready to panic. I don't know, I'm still not
Speaker 2: let's talk about it after the eleven