WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.839
<v Speaker 1>Okay, round two. Name something that's not boring.

2
00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire.

3
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:16.399
<v Speaker 1>Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino to chum.

4
00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:16.920
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

5
00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Chumbuckcasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games

6
00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.079
<v Speaker 1>joined today and play for free for your chance to

7
00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:28.199
<v Speaker 1>redeem some serious prizes. Chump Chumbucasino dot Com. Nocessary by

8
00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:29.519
<v Speaker 1>Black eighty plus starts the conditions of the busy.

9
00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:32.920
<v Speaker 3>Website retails with Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky

10
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:34.200
<v Speaker 3>just about anywhere.

11
00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:36.560
<v Speaker 4>Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today.

12
00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:39.159
<v Speaker 5>Has anyone seen the bride and groom?

13
00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:40.799
<v Speaker 2>Sorry? Sorry, we're here.

14
00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.920
<v Speaker 1>We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost

15
00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:43.439
<v Speaker 1>track of time.

16
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.960
<v Speaker 4>No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up

17
00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.200
<v Speaker 4>quicker than a guess registry.

18
00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:51.759
<v Speaker 2>In that case, I pronounce you Lucky hy for.

19
00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:55.119
<v Speaker 3>Free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting.

20
00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:57.719
<v Speaker 3>No purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by lock eight team

21
00:00:57.759 --> 00:00:59.119
<v Speaker 3>plus terms and conditions applack.

22
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:00.000
<v Speaker 2>See website for detail.

23
00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.840
<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

24
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:14.959
<v Speaker 5>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

25
00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:22.319
<v Speaker 5>written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every

26
00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.040
<v Speaker 5>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

27
00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.319
<v Speaker 5>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your

28
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:41.920
<v Speaker 5>host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.

29
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:47.920
<v Speaker 4>John Wayne Gacy raped, tortured, and murdered thirty three boys

30
00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:51.359
<v Speaker 4>and young men, bearing most of them in the crawl

31
00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:56.079
<v Speaker 4>space under his Chicago home. Karen Conti was in high

32
00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.400
<v Speaker 4>school at the time, watching the bodies being removed on

33
00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:06.560
<v Speaker 4>the television news. Fourteen years pass through a twist of fate, Conti,

34
00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.879
<v Speaker 4>now a young and inexperienced attorney, is called upon to

35
00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:16.479
<v Speaker 4>handle Gasey's final death row appeals. The serial killer soon

36
00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:23.520
<v Speaker 4>becomes her most famous, difficult, and haunting client. Thirty years

37
00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:28.000
<v Speaker 4>after Gasey's execution, Conti looks back through the eyes of

38
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.599
<v Speaker 4>a seasoned professional on the legal and media circus that ensued,

39
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:38.080
<v Speaker 4>and her countless hours of detailed conversation with the killer clown.

40
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.719
<v Speaker 4>We hear for the first time about Gasey's gruesome bodybook.

41
00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:50.120
<v Speaker 4>Were there more victims conspirators involved in the murders? What

42
00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:54.639
<v Speaker 4>secrets were buried with him? If one were to ask Conty,

43
00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.199
<v Speaker 4>How could you represent such a monster? She would respond,

44
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.280
<v Speaker 4>What you really want to know is what was he like?

45
00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:09.439
<v Speaker 4>This book answers that question. The book that we're featuring

46
00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:14.639
<v Speaker 4>this evening is Killing Time with John Wayne Gacy defending

47
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.919
<v Speaker 4>America's most evil serial killer on Death Row with my

48
00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:26.319
<v Speaker 4>special guest attorney, media personality and author Karen Kanti. Welcome

49
00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:28.719
<v Speaker 4>to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.

50
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Karen Conti, Hi Dan, thank you for having me.

51
00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.599
<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much, and congratulations on this book, Killing

52
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.360
<v Speaker 4>Time with John Wayne Gacy. Extraordinary book. Thank you so much.

53
00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:42.919
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad you read it. I'm glad you liked it.

54
00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:48.080
<v Speaker 4>Now tell us where you were personally and professionally in

55
00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:53.719
<v Speaker 4>October nineteen ninety three and your partner Greg Adamski before

56
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.879
<v Speaker 4>you take us to October nineteen ninety three and the

57
00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.639
<v Speaker 4>fateful drive that you had listening to the radio with Greg.

58
00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:04.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've been a Chicago area in native my whole life,

59
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:06.639
<v Speaker 2>and I went away to college and law school also

60
00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.479
<v Speaker 2>in the state, and at that time in the ninety three,

61
00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:11.560
<v Speaker 2>I had been out of law school about six or

62
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:16.240
<v Speaker 2>seven years, and I had never handled a murder case.

63
00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.680
<v Speaker 2>I had never handled a death penalty case, and I

64
00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:21.759
<v Speaker 2>would say that, you know, when you're six or seven

65
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:26.360
<v Speaker 2>years out, you're still inexperienced attorney. I was practicing law

66
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:29.519
<v Speaker 2>with Greg who was my life partner and law partner.

67
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.279
<v Speaker 2>We had a boutique law firm in Chicago, which means

68
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.160
<v Speaker 2>it's a small firm. We did criminal defense, we did

69
00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.680
<v Speaker 2>civil litigation. We did a variety of things, and had

70
00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:42.319
<v Speaker 2>argued before the US Supreme Court a couple of years back,

71
00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.160
<v Speaker 2>so we had gotten some high profile cases and had

72
00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:50.000
<v Speaker 2>handled some important things, but nothing as significant as a

73
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:51.079
<v Speaker 2>death row appeal.

74
00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.480
<v Speaker 4>Yes, you're right that you were litigators, so you were

75
00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.120
<v Speaker 4>used to going to trial, not just drafting wills and contracts.

76
00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.680
<v Speaker 2>That's right. There's really kind of two kinds of law.

77
00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.360
<v Speaker 2>One is where you're drafting things, whether you're cutting a

78
00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.439
<v Speaker 2>deal in a business setting, where you're papering a deal,

79
00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:09.920
<v Speaker 2>or you're writing, like you said, a will or a trust.

80
00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:13.680
<v Speaker 2>But litigation is a whole separate area. It's two people

81
00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:18.759
<v Speaker 2>suing each other for money, damages or obviously criminal work,

82
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.120
<v Speaker 2>which is the government bringing charges against a person. So

83
00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a much more active practice. It's very contentious and

84
00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:29.680
<v Speaker 2>to me it's more exciting.

85
00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.519
<v Speaker 4>Now. Tell us about this drive home to suburban Chicago

86
00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:37.560
<v Speaker 4>and you're with Greg and you're listening to the radio

87
00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.120
<v Speaker 4>and you hear an announcement. Tell us about what is

88
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.480
<v Speaker 4>announced and the conversation that ensues.

89
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, John Wayne Gacy, just by way of background, was

90
00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.360
<v Speaker 2>a serial killer back in the seventies. He was arrested

91
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.680
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy nine, tried in nineteen eighty, and was

92
00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.000
<v Speaker 2>sentenced to death. So flash I had. This is fourteen

93
00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:03.959
<v Speaker 2>years and Illinois really didn't have a lot of death penalty,

94
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:05.879
<v Speaker 2>a lot of executions going on. In fact, there was

95
00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.639
<v Speaker 2>only one in my lifetime, and it was one where

96
00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.600
<v Speaker 2>the defendant wanted to be executed, so there was no hoopla.

97
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.319
<v Speaker 2>So Greg and I are driving home to oak Park,

98
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:17.879
<v Speaker 2>which is the first suburb over from Chicago, and we

99
00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:22.120
<v Speaker 2>hear on the radio that Gaysey's execution date has been

100
00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.519
<v Speaker 2>set from May tenth, nineteen ninety four, and we both

101
00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.120
<v Speaker 2>looked at each other and we said, Gaysey's going to

102
00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.040
<v Speaker 2>be executed. I didn't know Illinois was using the death penalty.

103
00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we didn't even think about it. We thought

104
00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.519
<v Speaker 2>about it, and we kind of recounted the horrible crimes

105
00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and where we were when those crimes were being uncovered.

106
00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.600
<v Speaker 2>I was in high school at the time. People were

107
00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.480
<v Speaker 2>taking bets about how many bodies were going to be

108
00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.120
<v Speaker 2>taken out of his home. It was terrifying. It changed

109
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.120
<v Speaker 2>the fabric of Chicago. As a young person, it was

110
00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.279
<v Speaker 2>really impactful because I didn't understand what that meant and

111
00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.439
<v Speaker 2>that these kinds of people actually existed. But now it's

112
00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:01.879
<v Speaker 2>fourteen years later, and I turned to Greg and I said, well,

113
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:06.920
<v Speaker 2>would wouldn't it be unbelievably interesting if we represented him?

114
00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.399
<v Speaker 2>And we just laughed it off because obviously we were

115
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.439
<v Speaker 2>not death penalty lawyers and we had no connection with Gasey.

116
00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.519
<v Speaker 2>But that changed very soon after that conversation.

117
00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.399
<v Speaker 4>Yes, you talk about very soon, you say, one week later,

118
00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:25.920
<v Speaker 4>and two days after the execution date is announced, you

119
00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:30.800
<v Speaker 4>get the call. Tell us what Greg says and what

120
00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:31.360
<v Speaker 4>was the call.

121
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, a call came from some family member who was

122
00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:40.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of doing Gaysey's work and trying to put together

123
00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:44.120
<v Speaker 2>some legal defense for him. But strangely, the call came

124
00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.439
<v Speaker 2>in and what Gasey wanted was a lawyer to help

125
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.800
<v Speaker 2>him with some civil matters that he had pending. They

126
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.399
<v Speaker 2>were trying. The government was trying to get him to

127
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.120
<v Speaker 2>pay for his incarceration. There's a law in Illinois that

128
00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.879
<v Speaker 2>says that if you are able to pay for the

129
00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.600
<v Speaker 2>cost of incarceration, the government can bring a lawsuit for

130
00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:06.560
<v Speaker 2>a good reason. He was evil, he was guilty, and

131
00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:10.600
<v Speaker 2>he was not unrepentant, and Gacy was making money on

132
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.600
<v Speaker 2>his paintings, and the prison wanted to bring a lawsuit

133
00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:17.279
<v Speaker 2>and they did, and Gacy wanted us to represent him

134
00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.240
<v Speaker 2>because we had done some First Amendment work before the

135
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:25.160
<v Speaker 2>US Supreme Court. Frankly, Dan, we had no desire to

136
00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.040
<v Speaker 2>represent him in anything civil. Why would you care about

137
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:32.600
<v Speaker 2>your money when your life is being threatened in seven

138
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.600
<v Speaker 2>months time. But Greg was like, Oh, we're not going

139
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:38.799
<v Speaker 2>to do this. And I was like, we have to.

140
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.039
<v Speaker 2>We have to go down to death row and we

141
00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.360
<v Speaker 2>have to see what death row is like, and we

142
00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:46.519
<v Speaker 2>have to talk to the most evil man in the

143
00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.639
<v Speaker 2>history of our country at that time. He was the

144
00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:53.559
<v Speaker 2>most prolific serial killer ever. And I was so curious.

145
00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.159
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to look evil in the eye. I wanted

146
00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.759
<v Speaker 2>to see what caused that, what caused him to be

147
00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:01.279
<v Speaker 2>he was? Who is he?

148
00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:01.679
<v Speaker 4>Is?

149
00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.919
<v Speaker 2>He normal? I just wanted that experience. I'd read everything

150
00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.600
<v Speaker 2>about his case. I read a lot about his psychology.

151
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.600
<v Speaker 2>I was fascinated. So a few days later there we

152
00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.480
<v Speaker 2>were going down six and a half hours south from

153
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:19.159
<v Speaker 2>Chicago to visit John wayn Gazy.

154
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.000
<v Speaker 4>You also talk a little bit later in the book, though,

155
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.159
<v Speaker 4>that you came to this honestly there's a curiosity as

156
00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:30.159
<v Speaker 4>an attorney, but you also talk about your background and

157
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.279
<v Speaker 4>what you term in an obsession. Tell us about that.

158
00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've always been fascinated by serial killers, and now

159
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.879
<v Speaker 2>I'm very relieved to know that I'm not alone. People

160
00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.639
<v Speaker 2>are very fascinated by serial killers, as you know, and

161
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.639
<v Speaker 2>I think people are fascinated by the best of the best,

162
00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Olympic athletes that we see, and people

163
00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.399
<v Speaker 2>are likewise fascinated by the worst of the worst. And

164
00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.639
<v Speaker 2>when I was a kid, I used to watch all

165
00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.759
<v Speaker 2>the shows and read everything about Jack the Ripper and

166
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.200
<v Speaker 2>later on about Ted Bundy, and so I really was

167
00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.159
<v Speaker 2>fascinated with those stories. And I knew quite a bit

168
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.000
<v Speaker 2>about all of them, including John Gacy because he was

169
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.679
<v Speaker 2>a homeboy, so you know, we had read all the

170
00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.960
<v Speaker 2>books about him that were written. There was a. There

171
00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:18.879
<v Speaker 2>was a couple there were a couple of movies docu

172
00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.720
<v Speaker 2>dramas with Brian Denihey, that I had watched, and so

173
00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.519
<v Speaker 2>I knew that story pretty well.

174
00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.200
<v Speaker 4>Now, you say you were sixteen years old at that time,

175
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:32.440
<v Speaker 4>in nineteen seventy eight, but even at that time you

176
00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:34.879
<v Speaker 4>regarded the death penalty as wrong.

177
00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Tell us why I always thought the death penalty was

178
00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:43.519
<v Speaker 2>wrong even before I was sixteen, because I do remember

179
00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:46.840
<v Speaker 2>having conversations with my parents, who were both in favor

180
00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.039
<v Speaker 2>of it, and I would argue all the time. I

181
00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.240
<v Speaker 2>think I was a born lawyer, but you know, I

182
00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.399
<v Speaker 2>just kept saying, it doesn't make sense if you kill

183
00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.720
<v Speaker 2>somebody and that's wrong, how could the prosecutors kill you too?

184
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.080
<v Speaker 2>That makes no sense. That it's wrong for that guy

185
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:02.759
<v Speaker 2>to do it, it's wrong for the other people to

186
00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.240
<v Speaker 2>do it. And that was my logic, and that's always

187
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.279
<v Speaker 2>been my logic. And when I started taking classes in

188
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.879
<v Speaker 2>college about criminology and then in law school, I became

189
00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.840
<v Speaker 2>more and more entrenched in my position that the death

190
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.360
<v Speaker 2>penalty is something I don't believe in. I don't think

191
00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:21.279
<v Speaker 2>it deters crime. I think it's too expensive, it puts

192
00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.039
<v Speaker 2>a focus on the criminal and not the victims. It's

193
00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.600
<v Speaker 2>racially unjust in a lot of ways for a lot

194
00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:32.639
<v Speaker 2>of defendants, and it's not applied equally throughout the United States,

195
00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and the rest of the civilized world doesn't have it

196
00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.080
<v Speaker 2>when but I never handled a death penalty case, so

197
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.000
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have reason to shout out about it or

198
00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.480
<v Speaker 2>to represent somebody against it, But it was something that

199
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.600
<v Speaker 2>was always ingrained in me that it was just wrong.

200
00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.519
<v Speaker 4>Now let's get back to this adventure, and you're going

201
00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.480
<v Speaker 4>to see with Greg to visit John Wayne Gacy. And

202
00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.360
<v Speaker 4>with everything you know about the case and everything you

203
00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.919
<v Speaker 4>say that you were affected by this case and this

204
00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:07.639
<v Speaker 4>story for so many years. So with that, you're going

205
00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.360
<v Speaker 4>to Minard Correctional Center to visit John Wayne Gacy. Tell

206
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:12.960
<v Speaker 4>us about the experience.

207
00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, all the preconceived notions that I had were kind

208
00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.559
<v Speaker 2>of thrown out the window, because first of all, you

209
00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:25.320
<v Speaker 2>think that you're going to be behind plexiglass like in

210
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the movies. Well, that wasn't the case in death row

211
00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.000
<v Speaker 2>in Illinois at the time. We were led into this

212
00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.639
<v Speaker 2>bullpen where all of the people on death row who

213
00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.159
<v Speaker 2>had visitors that day, whether it was a minister a

214
00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:42.200
<v Speaker 2>girlfriend or a lawyer. They were all milling about walking

215
00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:46.759
<v Speaker 2>around free range. And as a lawyer in Chicago, we

216
00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of know who the serial killers are and who

217
00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.039
<v Speaker 2>the people on death row are. I mean, I'm saying,

218
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.080
<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, that guy killed four people. That guy

219
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.320
<v Speaker 2>killed three, this guy used to eat body parts. I mean,

220
00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.799
<v Speaker 2>these are like the most horrific people you can imagine.

221
00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>And here we are walking in you know, thinking to myself,

222
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.799
<v Speaker 2>Gaysey is probably the least intimidating of all these people here.

223
00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:15.039
<v Speaker 2>So that was the biggest shock. And you know, seeing

224
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:19.639
<v Speaker 2>Gaycy was also putting your preconceived notions away. You have

225
00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.799
<v Speaker 2>this idea in your head that I'm going to be

226
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:24.879
<v Speaker 2>able to tell how evil he is what I don't know,

227
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.879
<v Speaker 2>a tattoo on his head, that he's going to have

228
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.440
<v Speaker 2>fangs dripping with blood. I mean, you don't really think

229
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.639
<v Speaker 2>that's going to be the case, but you think I

230
00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:36.000
<v Speaker 2>can distinguish an evil person from a non evil person.

231
00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.039
<v Speaker 2>Gacy was short. He's five foot nine. He was kind

232
00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.879
<v Speaker 2>of dumpy. He was you know, had that prison pallor

233
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.399
<v Speaker 2>I call it, which is for years of not going

234
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.440
<v Speaker 2>outside and eating crummy food. And he was just not

235
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:50.320
<v Speaker 2>intimidating whatsoever.

236
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.000
<v Speaker 4>So you are curious and you want you don't quite

237
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.279
<v Speaker 4>understand why he would want to file these this make

238
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:06.759
<v Speaker 4>these filings with an imminent execution in the wings. So

239
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.360
<v Speaker 4>you want some explanation of why you would do that,

240
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.240
<v Speaker 4>and so does Greg. But tell us about the conversation

241
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.039
<v Speaker 4>and tell us about overall when it came to you

242
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.720
<v Speaker 4>that you needed to be involved in his case. But

243
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.559
<v Speaker 4>in as far as the death penalty went, well, it came.

244
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:30.919
<v Speaker 2>To realize that Geese was very oppositional and very confrontational,

245
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.879
<v Speaker 2>and he made a lot of bad decisions. Like that's

246
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.600
<v Speaker 2>probably the mildest thing I could say about John Gaysey.

247
00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.360
<v Speaker 2>He you know, he didn't know what was good for him,

248
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>He didn't know where he should focus his energy, and

249
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.399
<v Speaker 2>he was really fixated on this lawsuit brought by the government,

250
00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:49.120
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we talked about it, and we talked

251
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:52.000
<v Speaker 2>about possible defenses, and Greg and I were both really

252
00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:55.360
<v Speaker 2>not interested in representing him on that. I mean, we

253
00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:58.200
<v Speaker 2>weren't going to get paid, so like, what would be

254
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.440
<v Speaker 2>the purpose of doing that. It's just spinning your wheels

255
00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.159
<v Speaker 2>on something. And so but we used the time to

256
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.960
<v Speaker 2>talk to him and we chatted with him. Gacy was

257
00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.919
<v Speaker 2>very glib, he was very engaging, he was very funny.

258
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.600
<v Speaker 2>We talked to him a little bit about some of

259
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.720
<v Speaker 2>his appeals in the past and about his life on

260
00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:19.000
<v Speaker 2>death row, which we were very interested in. We dined

261
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:24.759
<v Speaker 2>together on prison affair, which was really disgusting, and so

262
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.799
<v Speaker 2>at the end of it we didn't promise to do anything.

263
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>We told him we were going to think about it.

264
00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>But as soon as we left the prison, I turned

265
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.200
<v Speaker 2>to Greg and I said, we have to get on

266
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.440
<v Speaker 2>the death penalty team. I don't care about his civil actions.

267
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.679
<v Speaker 2>I want to be part of the fight to have

268
00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:44.879
<v Speaker 2>the execution lifted. And again, just for your listeners, Dan,

269
00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.519
<v Speaker 2>we never thought about getting him out of prison. It

270
00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:49.879
<v Speaker 2>was not about exoneration. It was not about letting him

271
00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.159
<v Speaker 2>go free. That was never going to happen, and that

272
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.919
<v Speaker 2>was never our goal. The goal was simply to not

273
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:55.879
<v Speaker 2>have him executed.

274
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.879
<v Speaker 4>So Greg undertook that and you were you were to

275
00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.240
<v Speaker 4>convince Gacy that you could be involved along with Greg

276
00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:05.519
<v Speaker 4>in the death penalty fight.

277
00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Right the next day, I got on the phone with

278
00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.279
<v Speaker 2>Gasey and I told him, you know, we'll help you

279
00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.200
<v Speaker 2>with your civil stuff, but we need to be on

280
00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.639
<v Speaker 2>this team. You need help. You have two excellent death

281
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.240
<v Speaker 2>penalty lawyers already engaged. I said, we can help them.

282
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.200
<v Speaker 2>We have resources, we have law clerks, we have some

283
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.320
<v Speaker 2>experience and appellet work, and we want to be on

284
00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.639
<v Speaker 2>that team because we think it's important to try to

285
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.120
<v Speaker 2>save your life. And strangely, Gasey didn't want us on

286
00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.240
<v Speaker 2>that team, and so I had to convince him that

287
00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.080
<v Speaker 2>was in his best interest to have more hands on

288
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:42.360
<v Speaker 2>deck than fewer, which was the most bizarre thing in

289
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the world that I have to convince a serial killer

290
00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.879
<v Speaker 2>that I'm going to lend my support to his team,

291
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.559
<v Speaker 2>and he's fighting me on it. So but I finally

292
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.000
<v Speaker 2>convinced him that it was a good idea.

293
00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.360
<v Speaker 4>You said they had two experienced death penalty attorneys, and so,

294
00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:01.039
<v Speaker 4>needless to say, Greg did convince him those two that

295
00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:03.080
<v Speaker 4>you would join forces, didn't he?

296
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Right?

297
00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, when you have a team of lawyers,

298
00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:09.559
<v Speaker 2>you have a lot of egos. Mine probably the least

299
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.519
<v Speaker 2>of the of the four of us, but you know,

300
00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:14.839
<v Speaker 2>everyone wants to do it their way, and it really

301
00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.279
<v Speaker 2>does make sense to have one lawyer kind of take

302
00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:21.640
<v Speaker 2>the lead and create the plan and then have people

303
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.359
<v Speaker 2>execute it on it. Otherwise too many cooks kind of thing, right,

304
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.839
<v Speaker 2>But so so Greg, who had a sizeable ego, you know,

305
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.200
<v Speaker 2>had to you know, basically back down a little bit

306
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and take the lead from these other two lawyers who

307
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.839
<v Speaker 2>were clearly more experienced than both of us were.

308
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:43.000
<v Speaker 4>So everybody's divvied up into specific roles. What is your

309
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.920
<v Speaker 4>specific role in this team?

310
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, everyone worked on the appeals, including me. I took

311
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the role as sort of the spokesperson because one of

312
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.599
<v Speaker 2>the things, one of my goals is that the death

313
00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:00.599
<v Speaker 2>penalty is really largely based upon public opinion. Over the years,

314
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.680
<v Speaker 2>it's waxed and waned in popularity. After World War Two,

315
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the approval rate plummeted because of the Holocaust and things

316
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.680
<v Speaker 2>like that. So I thought that if I could make

317
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.240
<v Speaker 2>the statement that the death penalty is wrong, even for

318
00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.680
<v Speaker 2>John Wayne Gacy, I was not only advocating for Gaycy,

319
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.960
<v Speaker 2>but I was also advocating for other people on death row,

320
00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:24.079
<v Speaker 2>not only in Illinois but other states, to make the

321
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:29.720
<v Speaker 2>statement that it's racially unjust that people get wrongfully executed

322
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.400
<v Speaker 2>all the time. Gaysey didn't have any of those defenses,

323
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.799
<v Speaker 2>but other people did. And I thought that we can

324
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.000
<v Speaker 2>just move the ball down the court just a little

325
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:40.480
<v Speaker 2>bit to try to make that statement. So I was

326
00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:42.880
<v Speaker 2>out there at the press, I was doing a lot

327
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.720
<v Speaker 2>of interviews. I had all my statistics, and I tried

328
00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:48.720
<v Speaker 2>not to be preachy about it, because everyone has an

329
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.480
<v Speaker 2>opinion about these kinds of issues, like the death penalty.

330
00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.160
<v Speaker 2>But I really thought if I could educate the public

331
00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.160
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, maybe I could move the ball. And

332
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:57.680
<v Speaker 2>so that was my main thrust.

333
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.400
<v Speaker 4>At the same time, you were very familiar with the

334
00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.079
<v Speaker 4>crimes of John Wayne Gacy. You referred to a book

335
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.079
<v Speaker 4>called Buried Dreams, and you got Greg up to speed

336
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.720
<v Speaker 4>via the details that contained in that book. But you

337
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.799
<v Speaker 4>wanted the truth from John Wayne Gacy, and you wanted

338
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.599
<v Speaker 4>some answers to how this could have happened, and you

339
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.359
<v Speaker 4>asked him those relevant questions.

340
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Bury Dreams. It might be out of print now,

341
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.400
<v Speaker 2>but it is really the best book on the gay

342
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.279
<v Speaker 2>sy crimes, and it has a lot about the Gaycy

343
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:35.480
<v Speaker 2>trial and about Gaysey's background. It's very well done. Gasey

344
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.839
<v Speaker 2>confessed to the crimes when he was first arrested. My

345
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.680
<v Speaker 2>understanding is that he had escalated as a lot of

346
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.400
<v Speaker 2>serial killers do what he needed to satisfy him. At

347
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.839
<v Speaker 2>first in frequency did not work anymore. So he was

348
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.920
<v Speaker 2>really getting out of control. And there was one night

349
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.119
<v Speaker 2>he killed three boys, abducted one, brought him home, went

350
00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.799
<v Speaker 2>back out three times. So it was I think it

351
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.079
<v Speaker 2>was wearing on him, and I think he was relieved

352
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>when he was finally caught, and so that relief resulted

353
00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:10.319
<v Speaker 2>in him explaining what he did. He had names of

354
00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.680
<v Speaker 2>some of them, he had almost a photographic memory of

355
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.839
<v Speaker 2>where he buried them in his basement and his crawl space.

356
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:20.839
<v Speaker 2>And but thereafter he started denying that he ever confessed

357
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and told everyone who would listen that he's the victim

358
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.519
<v Speaker 2>and he didn't kill and of them except the first one,

359
00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and that was self defense. And that was just Gacy

360
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:31.960
<v Speaker 2>lying and manipulating, which is very much par for the

361
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.599
<v Speaker 2>course for a sociopath. But you're right, Dan, I did.

362
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I did try to ask him of those questions, and frankly,

363
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.839
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't even relevant to my representation because most of

364
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.680
<v Speaker 2>our issues related to the method of execution and things

365
00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.279
<v Speaker 2>like that as opposed to actual innocence, because we're you know,

366
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.359
<v Speaker 2>that was that ship had already sailed, but I wanted

367
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.839
<v Speaker 2>to know, John, if you're lying, you're lying to me,

368
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.359
<v Speaker 2>like how did all of those young men and boys

369
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.400
<v Speaker 2>get buried in your house? If you didn't do it,

370
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.759
<v Speaker 2>come on, ga, he tell me, you know, and he

371
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.559
<v Speaker 2>just wouldn't address it. He had all these different read

372
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.200
<v Speaker 2>between the lines, theories about who else could have done it,

373
00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:10.519
<v Speaker 2>but it was all just bs.

374
00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:10.839
<v Speaker 1>You know.

375
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.440
<v Speaker 2>That was Gaysey in denial about what he did.

376
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.400
<v Speaker 4>It is interesting the things he did eventually tell you

377
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:23.160
<v Speaker 4>regarding filming again, some shocking information in your book in

378
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.000
<v Speaker 4>that I'd never read this before at all, that you

379
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.319
<v Speaker 4>talked about investigating Gaycy being out of town and some

380
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.039
<v Speaker 4>good evidence that he was out of town at several

381
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:38.079
<v Speaker 4>of the murder dates, and also tell us a little

382
00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:39.240
<v Speaker 4>bit about that information.

383
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I'm going to kind of gloss over some

384
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:43.200
<v Speaker 2>of it because I do want people to read it,

385
00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>because that really is one of the I would say

386
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:51.599
<v Speaker 2>first times maybe someone has made these claims. But Gacy

387
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:53.839
<v Speaker 2>kept telling us he was out of town during some

388
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.759
<v Speaker 2>of the crimes, and we kept thinking, you're lying again

389
00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.440
<v Speaker 2>like you always do. He said, go get the records

390
00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.759
<v Speaker 2>therein the storage unit, the evidence unit. So we went

391
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.039
<v Speaker 2>there and we got his business records, and he kept

392
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.880
<v Speaker 2>meticulous maniacal records because gets how Geesey was. And it

393
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.920
<v Speaker 2>had receipts, and it had dates, and it had his

394
00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:17.640
<v Speaker 2>contracts that he had with different organizations where he was

395
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:22.359
<v Speaker 2>building or rehabbing certain ice cream shops and drug stores.

396
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And sure enough, there were several times where he was

397
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.680
<v Speaker 2>clearly out of town when the boy or man went missing.

398
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.519
<v Speaker 2>And even if you took a few days on either

399
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:36.640
<v Speaker 2>side of it to say, like maybe they were wrong

400
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:40.240
<v Speaker 2>about the date, he was not in town anywhere near

401
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.200
<v Speaker 2>when these kids were missing. The next part of that was,

402
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, there were two young men living with Casey

403
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:50.079
<v Speaker 2>at the time after his second wife moved out, and

404
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:54.359
<v Speaker 2>they forced these two young men were apparently having sex

405
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.519
<v Speaker 2>with him. They were working for him, and they testified

406
00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.440
<v Speaker 2>a trial that they actually dug the trenches under the

407
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.640
<v Speaker 2>crawl space. Their contention was they didn't know Gaycy was

408
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.960
<v Speaker 2>murdering people, and they never buried the bodies, but rather

409
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:12.160
<v Speaker 2>they just they just dug the trenches. All right. To me,

410
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.680
<v Speaker 2>that makes no sense. How do you how do you

411
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.240
<v Speaker 2>how do you dig trenches and not know why you're

412
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.599
<v Speaker 2>digging trenches. Gaycy was so poortly he couldn't have gotten

413
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.440
<v Speaker 2>out in that crawl space, especially carrying bodies and laying

414
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:32.160
<v Speaker 2>them like lined up. It was unbelievable. My clear belief

415
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.400
<v Speaker 2>to my dying day is that those two young men

416
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.000
<v Speaker 2>helped Gacy or actually committed some of those murders.

417
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:43.880
<v Speaker 4>Wow, that's incredible. Let's get to what he said about

418
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.079
<v Speaker 4>what could be some form of rationale to why this

419
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.200
<v Speaker 4>all happened, And that's the relationship he had with his father.

420
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he had a father who was an alcoholic and

421
00:23:55.839 --> 00:24:00.559
<v Speaker 2>who was very abusive mentally, emotionally, and physically. He beat

422
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Gacy in the basement of all places, which might be

423
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.599
<v Speaker 2>telling from a psychological standpoint. His mother was a very

424
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.880
<v Speaker 2>lovely woman, but passive. But this at the time, this

425
00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.960
<v Speaker 2>was going on nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, This was not

426
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:17.920
<v Speaker 2>a you know, this was not a typical because that

427
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.240
<v Speaker 2>was the time where women stayed at home and men

428
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.400
<v Speaker 2>went out and they drank too much and they you know,

429
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 2>they spanked their kids. And I'm not saying it was

430
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.440
<v Speaker 2>the best upbringing, but it certainly people with that type

431
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:32.119
<v Speaker 2>of upbringing didn't kill thirty three people. He did have

432
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.400
<v Speaker 2>a situation to situations where he was sexually abused when

433
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>he was young. And he also had a couple of

434
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:41.960
<v Speaker 2>head injuries, and I talk about that in my book,

435
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.960
<v Speaker 2>having access to his family members who detailed some of

436
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.359
<v Speaker 2>these facts that I don't know that anyone ever really

437
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>talked about. And as we know when you study true

438
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:55.319
<v Speaker 2>crime and you study death penalty cases in particular, sometimes

439
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>head injuries when you're young can affect a part of

440
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.680
<v Speaker 2>your brain that has to do with empathy and also

441
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.599
<v Speaker 2>impulse control. And if you look at the Hillside Strangler

442
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and Son of Sam and many, many, many of these

443
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.799
<v Speaker 2>serial killers I had serious, if not one, but two

444
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.200
<v Speaker 2>head injuries when they were young. So you combine all

445
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>those things, and then you also add to it that

446
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Gacy was probably a homosexual. He started to understand that,

447
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.559
<v Speaker 2>and that was definitely at odds with how his father

448
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.000
<v Speaker 2>wanted him to be and how the Catholic Church wanted

449
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:30.720
<v Speaker 2>him to be. This was a different time where this

450
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 2>was not an acceptable thing to be. So all of

451
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.039
<v Speaker 2>those things and maybe the guilt of feeling those feelings.

452
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.880
<v Speaker 2>The psychologist will say that maybe he was trying to

453
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.039
<v Speaker 2>kill himself each time he killed one of these victims.

454
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:49.240
<v Speaker 4>You talk about not acceptable at that time, that's certain

455
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:53.400
<v Speaker 4>in society there was no acceptance of homosexuality. But the

456
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.319
<v Speaker 4>father was very specific saying you're going to grow up

457
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.799
<v Speaker 4>to be a queer, and was admonished him for all

458
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 4>of the things that were not masculine, which John Wayne

459
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.759
<v Speaker 4>Gacy seemed to enjoy and had, has you right, a

460
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 4>pretty good relationship with as sisters at that time and

461
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 4>his mother, so it was much more. Again, it was

462
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.559
<v Speaker 4>a shame, a guilt, and it had to it seemed

463
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.440
<v Speaker 4>to have a major factor in this when he denies

464
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.400
<v Speaker 4>as even a homosexual later on.

465
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and just think about it for your listeners who

466
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 2>don't remember who John Wayne was. But he was the

467
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:29.079
<v Speaker 2>macho cowboy you know of the movies, and his father

468
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.359
<v Speaker 2>named him John Wayne Gacy because he was thinking his son,

469
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:35.039
<v Speaker 2>his only son, was going to be this macho guy

470
00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:38.200
<v Speaker 2>who likes sports and hunting and all those things. Gasey

471
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.200
<v Speaker 2>wanted nothing to do with it. He wanted to stay

472
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.680
<v Speaker 2>home with his mother and cook and garden and do

473
00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:46.279
<v Speaker 2>those kinds of things, and he just was. His father

474
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:48.680
<v Speaker 2>was relentless about criticizing him for that.

475
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.279
<v Speaker 4>Let's get to what you and Greg are proposing to

476
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 4>do to extend John Wayne Gacy's life. Tell us what

477
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.240
<v Speaker 4>would be successful in your fight for John Wayne Gacy

478
00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:04.759
<v Speaker 4>and what you employ, what you're looking for, and the

479
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.640
<v Speaker 4>kinds of things that you're doing to defend him in

480
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:09.000
<v Speaker 4>this death penalty suit.

481
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:13.079
<v Speaker 2>Once the death date is set, and that was set

482
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:17.680
<v Speaker 2>before we met him, all of the traditional appeals have

483
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:20.119
<v Speaker 2>been exhausted. So there's state appeals and it goes to

484
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>the federal court, to the US Supreme Court, comes back down.

485
00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:25.880
<v Speaker 2>There are all kinds of tangent issues, and so it's

486
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.160
<v Speaker 2>a whole medley of appeals and those were all done.

487
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:31.720
<v Speaker 2>So by the time we got to it, we had

488
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>to be creative, and you know, we had to attack

489
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:36.920
<v Speaker 2>the method of execution. We had to say that it

490
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.400
<v Speaker 2>was inhumane, we had to say it was against international treaty.

491
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 2>We we you know, made all the arguments we possibly could.

492
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>But the problem was that because Gacy was literally the

493
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.519
<v Speaker 2>most prolific serial killer ever in the history of the country,

494
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:56.640
<v Speaker 2>not just Illinois, and he was so unrepentant, and he

495
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 2>was selling stuff from jail and making money on his crimes,

496
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and everyone hated this guy and even people who said

497
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe in the death penalty, They're like the

498
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:10.640
<v Speaker 2>gaycy exception is, yeah, he should be executed. So what

499
00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:13.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying is that when the judges got these appeals,

500
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:16.839
<v Speaker 2>even though they were very well researched, we had, you know,

501
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.119
<v Speaker 2>they were very well written, they were well presented, the

502
00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:23.799
<v Speaker 2>judges were hearing nothing of it. No elected judge is

503
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.279
<v Speaker 2>ever going to reverse anything in a case involving John

504
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Wayne Gacy. They would be not only not re elected,

505
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:34.799
<v Speaker 2>but they probably would be physically assaulted. This was how

506
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.440
<v Speaker 2>high the tension was in Illinois at the time. So

507
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.279
<v Speaker 2>even though we were making some arguments that may have

508
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.119
<v Speaker 2>worked with other defendants, they were going nowhere with John

509
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Wayne Gacy.

510
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.920
<v Speaker 4>That Jesus as an opportunity to hear these messages.

511
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:53.640
<v Speaker 3>With lucky Lancelots, you can get lucky just about anywhere.

512
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:55.960
<v Speaker 4>Rearly beloved, we are gathered here today.

513
00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 5>Has anyone seen the bride and groom?

514
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.799
<v Speaker 3>Sorry, sorry, we're we were getting lucky in the limo

515
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:02.839
<v Speaker 3>and we lost track of time.

516
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.400
<v Speaker 4>No lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up

517
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 4>quicker than a guess registered in.

518
00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:12.279
<v Speaker 1>That case, I pronounce you lucky.

519
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.079
<v Speaker 3>Play for free at lucky land Slots dot com.

520
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Daily bonuses are waiting.

521
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.440
<v Speaker 3>No purchase necessary board were prohibited by w eighteen plus

522
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:19.759
<v Speaker 3>terms and conditions APPLA See website for details.

523
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Judy was boring Hello. Then Judy discovered Chumpa Casino dot Com.

524
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:26.519
<v Speaker 4>It's my little escape.

525
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Now Judy is the life of the party.

526
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh baby, mama is bringing home the bacon.

527
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:34.640
<v Speaker 1>WHOA, Take it easy, Judy. Jump the Chumba life is

528
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.720
<v Speaker 1>for everybody. So go to Chumpacasino dot com and play

529
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:40.680
<v Speaker 1>over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play

530
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.599
<v Speaker 1>for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices.

531
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:48.039
<v Speaker 1>Jump Chumpa Casino dot Com. Noe's necessary, boy, We're committed

532
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:49.880
<v Speaker 1>by eighteen plus terms and conditions to ply See website

533
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:50.599
<v Speaker 1>for details.

534
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 4>So tell us about John Wayne Gacy because you travel

535
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:59.920
<v Speaker 4>back in the book to his execution date because of

536
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 4>it's on the verge in nineteen ninety four and John

537
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:06.880
<v Speaker 4>Wayne Gacy on death row, and tell us a little

538
00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 4>bit more about your experiences. You talk about how things

539
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.480
<v Speaker 4>had changed in your legal career. But the attitude you

540
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:20.119
<v Speaker 4>say from judges and from any men and other attorneys

541
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.200
<v Speaker 4>was very, very interesting and disconcerting for you.

542
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>I naively thought that everyone would understand that we were

543
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.240
<v Speaker 2>just doing our jobs and that everyone deserves a defense,

544
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:38.319
<v Speaker 2>especially when the ultimate punishment, death is on the table.

545
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.839
<v Speaker 2>I may have understood that the public wouldn't be pleased,

546
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>and that we as lawyers get associated with the bad

547
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.759
<v Speaker 2>acts of our clients. I understand that, but I didn't

548
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 2>think that other lawyers and judges would be as critical

549
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and harsh. I have many situations during this time where

550
00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:58.640
<v Speaker 2>I would go to court on another matter and the

551
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.200
<v Speaker 2>judge would pull me in the chambers and say, what

552
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:03.200
<v Speaker 2>are you doing. You're making us all look bad. Let

553
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.599
<v Speaker 2>the guy die, Thinking to myself that you're a judge,

554
00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.519
<v Speaker 2>don't you understand that the system is set up for

555
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:12.799
<v Speaker 2>zealous advocacy on both sides. Prosecution probably had fifty lawyers

556
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:14.880
<v Speaker 2>working on it, casey had four. We were going to

557
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.680
<v Speaker 2>do what we needed to do. I mean, I think

558
00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:22.039
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the bad press, you know, was focused

559
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>on me because I was out there talking more than

560
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>the other lawyers. And I think because I was a woman,

561
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.680
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not whining about being a woman. I like

562
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.839
<v Speaker 2>being a woman, and I think females have something to

563
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.400
<v Speaker 2>add to being lawyers in different ways. And I think

564
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:42.559
<v Speaker 2>I have always used my femininity, you know, to listen

565
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.559
<v Speaker 2>to people, to be empathetic with people, and to convince,

566
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the courts to do certain things in ways

567
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:53.160
<v Speaker 2>that maybe men can't. But the criticism was largely focused

568
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 2>on me. And it wasn't just criticism, it was threats.

569
00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:00.079
<v Speaker 2>I had death threats, I had a bond threat and

570
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it continued on and on. I mean, to this day,

571
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure this book being published will bring people out

572
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.000
<v Speaker 2>of the woodwork and they're going to focus, you know,

573
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:11.119
<v Speaker 2>not on the issues or anything else or how bad

574
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:13.559
<v Speaker 2>Gaysy was, but they're going to focus on me. And

575
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I've just known that that's the case, and I'm just

576
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:17.759
<v Speaker 2>going to have to accept that.

577
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:21.839
<v Speaker 4>You mentioned that your team would have to get very creative,

578
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.640
<v Speaker 4>and especially you and Greg. And so you found a

579
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 4>professor Boyle, and so he had a novel idea and

580
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.839
<v Speaker 4>it seemed to work. Tell us about how it seemed

581
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:34.319
<v Speaker 4>to work and then what happened afterwards?

582
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.920
<v Speaker 2>It seemed to work until it didn't. How about that? Yeah,

583
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:42.400
<v Speaker 2>So my law professor, you know, this was years later.

584
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:45.200
<v Speaker 2>I called him up and I said, you know, can

585
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.240
<v Speaker 2>you help me with can we think of something? And

586
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:50.240
<v Speaker 2>he came up with a really great idea to file

587
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:53.680
<v Speaker 2>in the Intercommission on Human Rights, which is this commission

588
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 2>in Washington, and it has to do with enforcing treaties.

589
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.759
<v Speaker 2>And so he found a portion of a treaty that

590
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:05.839
<v Speaker 2>said that you cannot use Nazi research to you know,

591
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.400
<v Speaker 2>to do anything like that. It's off limits. Nazi research

592
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>is so horribly acquired that we can't use it, even

593
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.160
<v Speaker 2>if it's for a good reason. Well, the lethal injection

594
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:21.920
<v Speaker 2>machine in Illinois was invented by not a doctor, not

595
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:26.200
<v Speaker 2>an engineer, by about a guy who was a Holocaust revisionist,

596
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.960
<v Speaker 2>that's what I can say about him. And he used

597
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.240
<v Speaker 2>Nazi research to devise this lethal injection machine that had

598
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>failed in other states, didn't work, clogged, you know, which.

599
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, people say, I don't care how someone gets executed,

600
00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:43.640
<v Speaker 2>but you can't can't torture someone to death. And so

601
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 2>we used that statute the treaty and said you can't

602
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:50.559
<v Speaker 2>use this machine because it violated international law. We had

603
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>a couple other cool and unusual punishments under international law.

604
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:56.119
<v Speaker 2>We filed it and we won. It was the only

605
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:59.319
<v Speaker 2>thing we won. It might be the only appeal that

606
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:01.720
<v Speaker 2>Gacy won, and fourteen years he was on death row.

607
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.920
<v Speaker 2>But when it came to enforcing it, our governor looked

608
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 2>at that order that said the execution should stop, and

609
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:10.880
<v Speaker 2>our governor ignored it.

610
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:18.679
<v Speaker 4>Now afterwards, you're going to I guess you're via telephone.

611
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:21.000
<v Speaker 4>You're talking to John Wayne Gacy. But there's another visit

612
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.800
<v Speaker 4>to me in our correctional centater and Greg can't come,

613
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:28.800
<v Speaker 4>so he suggests one of your associates named Ellen. Tell

614
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:33.440
<v Speaker 4>us who Ellen is and how experienced or inexperienced she is,

615
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:38.199
<v Speaker 4>and tell us about your experience together at Minard.

616
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say Ellen was not as curious as

617
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I am. She didn't really want to go. She was

618
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:48.119
<v Speaker 2>just out of law school. She had a master's and

619
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:50.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot of grace. She was very intelligent. She was

620
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:55.519
<v Speaker 2>very beautiful, tall, and you know, dressed beautifully. And I

621
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:57.440
<v Speaker 2>had a convincer to go with me. I said, you know,

622
00:34:57.559 --> 00:34:59.880
<v Speaker 2>how could you pass this up? You may never get

623
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 2>a chance to do this again. She wasn't convinced, but

624
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.639
<v Speaker 2>she went down with me and we got a lot

625
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:10.000
<v Speaker 2>of attention at the prison, as you can imagine, which

626
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.599
<v Speaker 2>always happens when you're a female, but in some ways

627
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 2>you feel a little bit protected because everybody there knows

628
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that you're there to try to save a life, and

629
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:23.039
<v Speaker 2>they also know that if Gaysey goes, then the rest

630
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.000
<v Speaker 2>of them are going to go as well. So it

631
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:27.880
<v Speaker 2>was it was an interesting That was one of the

632
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.840
<v Speaker 2>chapters that probably was a little bit lighter because there

633
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.199
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of huber that went on there because

634
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:35.800
<v Speaker 2>she was so frightened about what was going on, and

635
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:40.760
<v Speaker 2>she met some of the state's most evil serial killers

636
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:44.079
<v Speaker 2>and killers. And that was the That was the time

637
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.360
<v Speaker 2>where my birthday gifts were given to me by Gacy,

638
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.960
<v Speaker 2>which was of course the horrible paintings that he created

639
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.159
<v Speaker 2>while he was in prison.

640
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:56.039
<v Speaker 4>Yes, you provide Brents of that in your book. I

641
00:35:56.119 --> 00:36:00.920
<v Speaker 4>thought the is it c shatty something about the sea

642
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:04.960
<v Speaker 4>scaping exhibited quite a bit of talent, and I thought

643
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 4>it was quite good.

644
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.800
<v Speaker 2>Actually in person, maybe it's not so much. They really

645
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:11.840
<v Speaker 2>aren't very good, you know, and I don't even know

646
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:14.360
<v Speaker 2>that he actually did all of them, but he certainly

647
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.559
<v Speaker 2>made some money. And you know, you can look around

648
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and these things are still being sold for way too

649
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.199
<v Speaker 2>much money. In my view.

650
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.800
<v Speaker 4>He thought it was a big deal to give you

651
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:27.199
<v Speaker 4>those gifts, and you didn't let them down in that regard.

652
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.920
<v Speaker 2>No, I thanked him profusely. You know, I took them

653
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.840
<v Speaker 2>home and put them on the ground face down.

654
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, now, maybe this is giving a little bit away.

655
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:42.440
<v Speaker 4>Tell us about Ellen and her legal career afterwards.

656
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, Well she did not like the experience. I mean,

657
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.760
<v Speaker 2>nothing bad happened, but she I think decided she did

658
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:51.760
<v Speaker 2>not want to be associated with our law firm like

659
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.679
<v Speaker 2>many people, you know, we clients quit us. We had

660
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Like I said, I got kicked out of a restaurant

661
00:36:57.360 --> 00:36:59.920
<v Speaker 2>just because people were looking at us and making, you know,

662
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:02.840
<v Speaker 2>making comments about how could we represent a serial killer

663
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.320
<v Speaker 2>and a child killer? So, I mean she just literally

664
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.760
<v Speaker 2>took her stuff out, quit her job, moved down to Florida.

665
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.000
<v Speaker 2>I think she's writing Wills down there. Now.

666
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.280
<v Speaker 4>You had you said it was a strange sort of

667
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 4>bond or an odd bond. But you did have a

668
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:23.400
<v Speaker 4>relationship with John's sister Karen, Yes.

669
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and you know one of she she just wrote

670
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:30.480
<v Speaker 2>a book called The Silent Victim, and it's about how

671
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:36.039
<v Speaker 2>people who are family members of convicted killers really are

672
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 2>grieving too. And she had no idea about any of this.

673
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:44.880
<v Speaker 2>In fact, she said, if John didn't tell her, yes,

674
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.320
<v Speaker 2>I did commit these crimes, she would to this day

675
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:51.199
<v Speaker 2>still deny it because the John she knew was kind

676
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:57.000
<v Speaker 2>and generous and funny and a good brother, protective, a

677
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:00.719
<v Speaker 2>good father, you know, all of those things. And a

678
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 2>lot of people said that about Gaycy. So when he

679
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.159
<v Speaker 2>was convicted, I mean and she everyone had to change

680
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.599
<v Speaker 2>their names and everyone had to move away. You know,

681
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:15.039
<v Speaker 2>that became a horrible process. But she had no ability

682
00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:17.360
<v Speaker 2>to stand out and say, look at me, I'm a

683
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.159
<v Speaker 2>victim too. I mean, she to this day talks about

684
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:23.199
<v Speaker 2>the family and of the you know, the victim's families,

685
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:26.679
<v Speaker 2>about how she feels horrible, like could she have done something?

686
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Could she have recognized this? Could she have stopped Gaysey

687
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.599
<v Speaker 2>from becoming who he became? And she has no ability

688
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>to be righteous in her grief. And listen, the state

689
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:42.760
<v Speaker 2>executed her brother and she's still grieving that. So you know,

690
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.800
<v Speaker 2>there's there are all different sides of this case and

691
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:47.840
<v Speaker 2>in all different ways you can be empathetic with the

692
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.039
<v Speaker 2>people affected by this for horrible bunch of crimes.

693
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.519
<v Speaker 4>Tell us about life on death row for John Wayne Gacy.

694
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, you or I would be appalled at the lack

695
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.119
<v Speaker 2>of freedom, the fact that you're living in a room

696
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.760
<v Speaker 2>that's half the size of a parking space. Minard has

697
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.880
<v Speaker 2>been condemned over and over again. People have died from heat,

698
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:18.159
<v Speaker 2>people have died from cold. It's an old place. It's dangerous.

699
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Imagine running around with you know, two hundred of the

700
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:26.400
<v Speaker 2>worst criminals in Illinois. He was stabbed when he was

701
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:29.119
<v Speaker 2>there by a guy who's just out of his mind,

702
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:32.039
<v Speaker 2>who I ended up meeting on one of my trips there.

703
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:36.360
<v Speaker 2>He was truly frightening. So the food is horrible. You know,

704
00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Gaycy didn't even go outside because he knew he was

705
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:42.440
<v Speaker 2>a target and he was safer inside and not in

706
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:46.199
<v Speaker 2>the yard. It's a horrible place. The guards are not

707
00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:49.199
<v Speaker 2>the nicest people in the world generally, and they're not

708
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.519
<v Speaker 2>really that interested in protecting anyone. They're mostly interested in

709
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.760
<v Speaker 2>keeping themselves safe, which I think I probably would would

710
00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.679
<v Speaker 2>be too if I were a prison guard. So it's horrendous.

711
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 2>One day in the prison, like spending six hours, it

712
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 2>seemed like eternity. It would seem like a month. You

713
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.760
<v Speaker 2>walk out of there, you thought the calendar had just stopped. Wow,

714
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:15.199
<v Speaker 2>And it's so stressful and awful. And if people don't

715
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 2>think that's punishment, it's punishment. Although I will tell you this,

716
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:24.239
<v Speaker 2>people like Gacy adapt in prison, and Gacy adapted pretty

717
00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:27.800
<v Speaker 2>well because he had regularity. He knew when his meals

718
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:32.320
<v Speaker 2>were coming, he had visitors, he had correspondents, he had

719
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:35.440
<v Speaker 2>a routine that he followed, and I think that was

720
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>preferable to his psychology then going out and doing what

721
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.480
<v Speaker 2>he did, even though I will tell you if Gacy

722
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 2>had an opportunity to get out of prison, he would

723
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.840
<v Speaker 2>have gone right back to killing people, no question in

724
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 2>my mind.

725
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:54.880
<v Speaker 4>And there's lots of evidence just from this book that

726
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.679
<v Speaker 4>he really reveled in that notoriety. He really enjoyed that

727
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:01.360
<v Speaker 4>he did.

728
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's kind of hard to describe, but you

729
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.320
<v Speaker 2>think there would be shame that he was being called

730
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:12.159
<v Speaker 2>certain things, and he was being called horrible things, and

731
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:17.000
<v Speaker 2>he would make jokes about it, and he would you know,

732
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:20.760
<v Speaker 2>there's one part of my book that you might recall, Dan,

733
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 2>where I was talking about Henry Lee Lucas, who was

734
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.679
<v Speaker 2>a serial killer in Texas who had been spared execution

735
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.360
<v Speaker 2>by Governor Bush. And they were tagging him with like

736
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.159
<v Speaker 2>two hundred murders, and I don't think he committed all those.

737
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:36.880
<v Speaker 2>I think they were just trying to close the books

738
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:39.280
<v Speaker 2>on certain crimes. But I started talking to John about it. It

739
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.079
<v Speaker 2>was like, hey, you know, Henry Lee Lucas is going

740
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.119
<v Speaker 2>to beat your record. Well, he did not like that

741
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:48.159
<v Speaker 2>at all, and he started arguing with me about how

742
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>those were not crimes that he committed. The government is

743
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 2>just tagging in with all those, and he just fought

744
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 2>me and fought me, and it was really interesting because

745
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I saw that truly he was prom of what he

746
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.199
<v Speaker 2>did as sick as that is. That's really the case.

747
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.039
<v Speaker 4>Now let's get to some of the things that really

748
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 4>are Again, you will face criticism for and you have,

749
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.480
<v Speaker 4>and not not only you, but some of the real

750
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:21.119
<v Speaker 4>arguments you have against the death penalty. And you chose

751
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.480
<v Speaker 4>a case that one of the most if not the

752
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:28.000
<v Speaker 4>most reviled man in America at that time, and yet

753
00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:32.559
<v Speaker 4>you still thought this person deserves not to be killed,

754
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.920
<v Speaker 4>not to be executed. So tell us all of the

755
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:40.519
<v Speaker 4>reasons why this was important to you. What's your case

756
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:44.119
<v Speaker 4>against the death penalty? Even for guys like John Wayne

757
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.960
<v Speaker 4>Gacy and guys like the Despicable Ripper Crew that you

758
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.360
<v Speaker 4>read about in this book as well.

759
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:56.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's I'm just opposed to it on all aspects.

760
00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.960
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I've traveled quite a bit. I've travel

761
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:03.039
<v Speaker 2>to fifty countries this point in my life, and everywhere

762
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:05.079
<v Speaker 2>I go I talk to people about the duct penalty,

763
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and they are mostly stunned that we still haven't. They

764
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 2>don't understand why we're still executing people. I mean, Europe

765
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:17.039
<v Speaker 2>has abolished it, most of the Western countries have abolished it,

766
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:20.239
<v Speaker 2>and we use it. We're right up there with Bangladesh,

767
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.159
<v Speaker 2>China and some of those countries Pe. I think Pakistan

768
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:28.440
<v Speaker 2>as far as executions. So instead of saying why should

769
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.880
<v Speaker 2>we abolish it, I always think of it as why

770
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.840
<v Speaker 2>should we have it? And number one, it doesn't deter

771
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.199
<v Speaker 2>I will tell you this. If it deterred people from

772
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:41.639
<v Speaker 2>committing crimes, in particular murder, I might just say, okay,

773
00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:46.360
<v Speaker 2>I can let down my morality arguments here and just say, Okay,

774
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:48.840
<v Speaker 2>if it's going to save a life, let's execute people

775
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.599
<v Speaker 2>and it'll set a precedent for others. But that's just

776
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 2>not the case. In fact, the most murderous states are

777
00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:01.760
<v Speaker 2>those that have more executions, Yeah, to deters someone from

778
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.039
<v Speaker 2>doing it again. If you execute someone, I understand that,

779
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 2>But if you compare it with life in prison. When

780
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I say life in prison, actual life in prison without

781
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.079
<v Speaker 2>the possibility of parole, it doesn't deter any more people

782
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:19.760
<v Speaker 2>than an execution. So you know, it's racially it's invoked

783
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.480
<v Speaker 2>in a racially discriminatory matter. Not just the defendants are

784
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:27.679
<v Speaker 2>mostly are largely higher percentage of brown and black people,

785
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.840
<v Speaker 2>but also the victims. If the victim is white, the

786
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:35.800
<v Speaker 2>chances of the defendant getting the death penalty a skyrocket.

787
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.280
<v Speaker 2>It costs more to execute people. People don't understand that,

788
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.159
<v Speaker 2>but you will see if you look at the stats.

789
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.079
<v Speaker 2>There's really no disputing it. It costs more to try

790
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:48.159
<v Speaker 2>and have the appeals on death penalty case. Why because

791
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:51.320
<v Speaker 2>there's more precautions that get involved, so there's more lawyers

792
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:56.239
<v Speaker 2>and forensic people. Even the executions are expensive. And Idaho

793
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.880
<v Speaker 2>they're just getting ready to spend seven hundred and fifty

794
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:03.119
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars on a firing squad chamber. You know, take

795
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 2>that money and prosecute more kid killers, you know, don't

796
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 2>use it to just execute someone which is not going

797
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>to really help anything. I do think there's an argument

798
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.679
<v Speaker 2>that the death penalty is too easy, and that being

799
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.360
<v Speaker 2>in prison for sixty years under the conditions I just

800
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.800
<v Speaker 2>described might just be more punishment than killing somebody. And

801
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's all kinds of other there's the moral issue,

802
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:33.119
<v Speaker 2>and I suppose most importantly is people get executed all

803
00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:35.320
<v Speaker 2>the time who are actually innocent of the crimes. And

804
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.119
<v Speaker 2>if you think that that's not the case, you have

805
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.159
<v Speaker 2>to look at Illinois and just google twelve exonerated, thirteen executed.

806
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Put that in there. In a period of time of

807
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.400
<v Speaker 2>about I would say fifteen to twenty years, we had

808
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>twelve people, twelve or thirteen people actually walk out of

809
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:57.000
<v Speaker 2>death row, not on technicalities, but because they were actually innocent,

810
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and about the same amount were executed. And that's a

811
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.679
<v Speaker 2>really poor batting average. If you can't get it right

812
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:06.920
<v Speaker 2>for a death penalty case, you shouldn't be in the

813
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:11.440
<v Speaker 2>business of killing people. And our very conservative Republican governor

814
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.000
<v Speaker 2>thought the same way, always in favor of the death penalty.

815
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>He took one look at this when he was governor

816
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:19.360
<v Speaker 2>and he said, I can't in good conscience continue to

817
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:21.599
<v Speaker 2>use the death penalty in the state, and you can

818
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.960
<v Speaker 2>imagine how popular that decision was, but in my view,

819
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:26.960
<v Speaker 2>it was the right decision and a courageous one.

820
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:32.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's no legal foundation when all those people have

821
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:35.559
<v Speaker 4>been proven exonerated, and thank God for DNA. In that regard,

822
00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.480
<v Speaker 4>you would think that that would be a cornerstone of

823
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.119
<v Speaker 4>the judicial system that you could not have that that

824
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:46.599
<v Speaker 4>should be ingrained, that you can't have that, So the

825
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:51.880
<v Speaker 4>death penalty would again be reversed or abolished because of that,

826
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:56.760
<v Speaker 4>that even one innocent person be put to death, would

827
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:00.519
<v Speaker 4>be should negate all of it. And you know, it's

828
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.920
<v Speaker 4>very interesting you say you went to fifty countries being

829
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:08.800
<v Speaker 4>born in Canada, we don't quite understand your laws because

830
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:13.800
<v Speaker 4>regarding death penalty, because it's the inherent unfairness of having

831
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:18.559
<v Speaker 4>one state have a death penalty where they're hurrying the

832
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:22.800
<v Speaker 4>person to death row and execution, another state like California

833
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.760
<v Speaker 4>where you're on death row but almost no one gets executed,

834
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.639
<v Speaker 4>it seems, and then another state where they're very adamant

835
00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:36.280
<v Speaker 4>and the death penalty is applied. So there is no

836
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.800
<v Speaker 4>federal law like in many countries like Canada, where that

837
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:45.440
<v Speaker 4>murder law criminal law would be federally applied. You wouldn't

838
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 4>have a state by state application of something just by

839
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:55.719
<v Speaker 4>virtue of having that. That's an inherent unfairness completely. So

840
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 4>I the understand.

841
00:47:57.440 --> 00:47:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean like in Texas you could be a

842
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.320
<v Speaker 2>getaway driver and get the death penalty. In Illinois you

843
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:05.159
<v Speaker 2>could be the getaway driver where there's a murder committed

844
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.360
<v Speaker 2>and do four years in jail. So it's just not

845
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:12.960
<v Speaker 2>applied evenly. And and you know the other thing that

846
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:14.760
<v Speaker 2>you have to understand is when you have a really

847
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:18.039
<v Speaker 2>bad crime that's a death penalty eligible crime like multiple

848
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:22.159
<v Speaker 2>deaths or a child or you know, a torture or

849
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:24.840
<v Speaker 2>something like that that enables the prosecution to go for

850
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the death penalty, you have jurors who are so horrified

851
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.599
<v Speaker 2>about the crime that they're more likely to get the

852
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:34.440
<v Speaker 2>wrong guy because and so so the police and so

853
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:37.280
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutors they want to close the crime. They want

854
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.159
<v Speaker 2>to they want to close the book on the on

855
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.599
<v Speaker 2>the chapter. They want to make sure you know, we're

856
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:44.800
<v Speaker 2>doing justice, and in so doing so, many bad decisions

857
00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:48.280
<v Speaker 2>are made. So with the more horrible the crime, from

858
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:50.480
<v Speaker 2>what I see, the more likely you're going to get

859
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:51.920
<v Speaker 2>a wrong decision.

860
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:55.679
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, in so many ways too, that death penalty has

861
00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:59.800
<v Speaker 4>this undue leverage against the defendant, so that he would

862
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:03.280
<v Speaker 4>lead guilty to avoid the death penalty with the threat

863
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:05.679
<v Speaker 4>that this is an imminent death penalty case and you're

864
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.480
<v Speaker 4>going to be executed, so you better not take a chance.

865
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:12.000
<v Speaker 4>And an attorney has advised something like that even.

866
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:15.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know, going back to the Gacy case,

867
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, and there's a lot of people who will,

868
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, give me criticism for this, but think about

869
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.039
<v Speaker 2>how important it is for the defense lawyers to do

870
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:27.519
<v Speaker 2>their jobs, because I truly believe those two young men

871
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:31.079
<v Speaker 2>are out there and they helped Gaycy commit these crimes,

872
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:32.840
<v Speaker 2>if not committed a few of them on their own.

873
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:36.840
<v Speaker 2>They certainly, in my view, hid the bodies. They certainly

874
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:39.760
<v Speaker 2>had culpability in what went on. They may have even

875
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:42.199
<v Speaker 2>procured some of these young men for Gaycy. I don't

876
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:46.840
<v Speaker 2>have facts on this necessarily, but I will tell you,

877
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:50.639
<v Speaker 2>if defense lawyers do their job, we make sure that

878
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the right person gets punished, you know, because you don't

879
00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:56.239
<v Speaker 2>want the wrong person to get punished and have the

880
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:59.719
<v Speaker 2>other one out there continuing to do their bad acts.

881
00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:03.760
<v Speaker 4>Let's use this as an opportunity to hear these messages.

882
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:08.679
<v Speaker 4>You say that he may have had accomplices, David cram And,

883
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.760
<v Speaker 4>but you're not saying that there's any possibility of John

884
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:18.760
<v Speaker 4>Wayne Gacy being not guilty. You're just saying that these

885
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:23.159
<v Speaker 4>people knew a lot more than the police ever determined

886
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:23.719
<v Speaker 4>from them.

887
00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I believe Gaycy was guilty of many of the murders, absolutely,

888
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:35.480
<v Speaker 2>But I believe that these two young men were recruited

889
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:39.599
<v Speaker 2>by him, and they were in some way. You know,

890
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:44.559
<v Speaker 2>he honed their taste for it and gave them self esteem,

891
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and gave them jobs, and gave them money, and gave

892
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:50.079
<v Speaker 2>them drugs and alcohol and allowed them to live with him.

893
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:53.039
<v Speaker 2>And I think all of those things maybe turned these

894
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:59.679
<v Speaker 2>otherwise okay kids into murderous apprentices. And that's not the

895
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:02.920
<v Speaker 2>first time that's happened. There was a case down in Texas,

896
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.519
<v Speaker 2>the Dean Choral murders, where he did the exact same thing.

897
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:10.599
<v Speaker 2>He recruited two young men to procure some of the

898
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:13.480
<v Speaker 2>victims and to help with the crimes and to help

899
00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:16.519
<v Speaker 2>with the disposal of the bodies. And these kids, by

900
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:19.800
<v Speaker 2>all accounts, weren't really evil kids. They were just sucked

901
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:24.440
<v Speaker 2>into the vortex of this guy who promised them things

902
00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:28.599
<v Speaker 2>and picked them because they had bad family homes, they

903
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:32.760
<v Speaker 2>had bad parental relationships, and were able to get these

904
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 2>kids to do the most immoral, horrible things you can imagine.

905
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:39.280
<v Speaker 4>You say that it might have been the case where

906
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:42.440
<v Speaker 4>the prosecutor and maybe even the police, but at least

907
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:45.599
<v Speaker 4>the prosecutor wanted to make a much simpler case and

908
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:48.880
<v Speaker 4>it happens as far as the narrative, so that they

909
00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:51.960
<v Speaker 4>didn't dig too deep and there was no charges against

910
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:53.480
<v Speaker 4>these two or anything.

911
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:56.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it was easier for the prosecution just

912
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.599
<v Speaker 2>to tag Gacy with all of them. It would have

913
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:03.760
<v Speaker 2>complicated it had the young men also been accused, and

914
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:06.880
<v Speaker 2>who knows what would have happened. You know, I don't

915
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:09.039
<v Speaker 2>mean this in a bad way because the prosecutor who

916
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:11.719
<v Speaker 2>just passed away, Bill Huncle was a friend of mine,

917
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.719
<v Speaker 2>became a friend of mine, and I respect him greatly.

918
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.559
<v Speaker 2>But you know, he got the world record serial killers.

919
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:20.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he had a great career afterwards because he

920
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.239
<v Speaker 2>was the one who put Gacy away for all of

921
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:26.440
<v Speaker 2>those crimes. And I think those kinds of considerations are

922
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:30.159
<v Speaker 2>I understand those considerations. But again, it was frightening to

923
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:33.719
<v Speaker 2>me that those two young men were walking around. One

924
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:35.960
<v Speaker 2>of them committed suicide, by the way, the other one

925
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:37.199
<v Speaker 2>is still with us.

926
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:41.679
<v Speaker 4>You're right about something called the bodybook, which I had

927
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:44.239
<v Speaker 4>never heard of. Tell us a little bit about the

928
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:44.880
<v Speaker 4>body book.

929
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:49.239
<v Speaker 2>One of the visits we had with Gacy, he was

930
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:51.639
<v Speaker 2>sitting there and he had this notebook and it was

931
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:55.159
<v Speaker 2>very thick, and it had the words bodybook on the

932
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:57.719
<v Speaker 2>front of it, and I said, what is that? And

933
00:52:57.719 --> 00:52:59.960
<v Speaker 2>he kind of kept it like he was like possessive

934
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.360
<v Speaker 2>with it, didn't want to show it to me, and

935
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I give it to me. I want to see this.

936
00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:06.360
<v Speaker 2>So I opened it up and it was just terrifying.

937
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:12.320
<v Speaker 2>He had color coded tabs of all the victims were

938
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:15.920
<v Speaker 2>found on his property. They had on the pages were

939
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.400
<v Speaker 2>pictures of their high school yearbook, pictures, their pets, the

940
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.559
<v Speaker 2>house where they lived, maybe a clip from their little league,

941
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:29.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, sports story, and then almost always and a

942
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Speaker 2>little short about the person being found, either found by

943
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:36.239
<v Speaker 2>in the Gacy house or when they went missing. And

944
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:38.840
<v Speaker 2>remember this was at a time, you know, we had

945
00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:42.400
<v Speaker 2>this done. It was like in the nineteen eighties. There

946
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:45.400
<v Speaker 2>was no internet, you know, there was no googling this stuff.

947
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.760
<v Speaker 2>You had actually go to the newspaper and go to

948
00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:51.800
<v Speaker 2>the microfiche and copy it and find old papers and

949
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:54.280
<v Speaker 2>take these things together. And that's what someone had done.

950
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Gacy had retained a private investigator from Canada to put

951
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:04.039
<v Speaker 2>all these things together, and it was just astounding, and

952
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:08.000
<v Speaker 2>obviously this was his souvenir book. But I asked him,

953
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I said, why did you do this? And he said, well,

954
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I just want to see if all of these young

955
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.760
<v Speaker 2>men like had something in common so I could figure

956
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:21.239
<v Speaker 2>out who actually killed them. And you know, my BSM

957
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:25.360
<v Speaker 2>meter went off on that one. But he also called

958
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it the body Book, and I questioned him on that.

959
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.199
<v Speaker 2>I said, these were human beings, John, why are you

960
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:34.679
<v Speaker 2>calling them bodies? And he would he said something. One

961
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:37.519
<v Speaker 2>of the times I asked him, he said, what were

962
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:39.800
<v Speaker 2>their parents? Where were their parents when they went missing,

963
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:43.519
<v Speaker 2>as if to say they were to blame for getting

964
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:46.519
<v Speaker 2>killed and ending up in his cross space, Which was

965
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:48.440
<v Speaker 2>the most one of the most chilling things he ever

966
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:53.159
<v Speaker 2>said to me, because it just demonstrated how he dehumanized

967
00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:56.239
<v Speaker 2>those kids. He just they were nothing to him. They

968
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:59.920
<v Speaker 2>were deserving of what they got, and that is probably

969
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.960
<v Speaker 2>that's the most evil part of Gaycy that I ever.

970
00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:08.400
<v Speaker 4>Saw you write about death day, and that's what you

971
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:13.760
<v Speaker 4>call the chapter. And there are the last legal briefs

972
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:18.159
<v Speaker 4>that you and Greg file and requesting a stay of execution,

973
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:21.960
<v Speaker 4>and you're waiting for the answer, and you go back

974
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:26.400
<v Speaker 4>to that. He's been transferred to Stateville and via helicopter.

975
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:29.719
<v Speaker 4>So he's pretty excited, it seems when you come there

976
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:34.239
<v Speaker 4>and visit, tell us about this last day, his behavior,

977
00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:38.119
<v Speaker 4>his attitude, and what was said. Tell us a little

978
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:38.719
<v Speaker 4>bit about that.

979
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to leave some of the for my readers

980
00:55:42.039 --> 00:55:45.280
<v Speaker 2>because I think that it's something that I'd like to

981
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:49.239
<v Speaker 2>have my readers look at themselves. But I will tell

982
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 2>you this, Gaycy to the end was very excited he

983
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.320
<v Speaker 2>had He went up to Stateville the first time in

984
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:57.880
<v Speaker 2>fourteen years he had been out of his prison. He

985
00:55:57.960 --> 00:55:59.760
<v Speaker 2>was in a new prison. He was allowed to have

986
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.480
<v Speaker 2>his last meal there. He was allowed to have all

987
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:05.159
<v Speaker 2>of the lawyers who represented him over the years, his neighbors,

988
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:08.760
<v Speaker 2>his friends, his family were all allowed to visit him.

989
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:11.159
<v Speaker 2>At one time. He was allowed to kind of walk

990
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:15.960
<v Speaker 2>around and talk to everyone, albeit in handcuffs, and he

991
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:21.079
<v Speaker 2>was thoroughly enjoying himself. And it was really bizarre because

992
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.239
<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine knowing that you have a date with

993
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:27.320
<v Speaker 2>death a certain minute to the on the clock, that

994
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.440
<v Speaker 2>they're going to put that lethal injection into your arm.

995
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:33.119
<v Speaker 2>And here he was like he was at a cocktail

996
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:37.480
<v Speaker 2>party and not a lethal cocktail party. It was surreal

997
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.840
<v Speaker 2>and it really was difficult for me to watch that

998
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:44.320
<v Speaker 2>because he had was not coming to grips with what

999
00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:45.840
<v Speaker 2>was going to happen to him. And maybe that was

1000
00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:48.920
<v Speaker 2>better for him. Maybe being in denial at that point

1001
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:49.920
<v Speaker 2>in his life is a good thing.

1002
00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 4>Can you describe the mood you say, describe it a

1003
00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:57.280
<v Speaker 4>certain way, the mood of the crowd and the media

1004
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.559
<v Speaker 4>that was assembled. Just give us a little as it's

1005
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:02.480
<v Speaker 4>very vivid. How you describe it in the book.

1006
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:07.039
<v Speaker 2>It was like a circus, and there were cameras from

1007
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:11.000
<v Speaker 2>all over the world, Italy and England and South America.

1008
00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:14.559
<v Speaker 2>They were covering this. And there were people lined up

1009
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:19.119
<v Speaker 2>along the path to Stateville. There were kids who weren't

1010
00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:22.639
<v Speaker 2>even born when Gaycy was, you know, convicted, and there

1011
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.239
<v Speaker 2>were people dressed up as clowns. There were drums beating,

1012
00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.199
<v Speaker 2>people were drinking alcohol. This was a school night. This

1013
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:32.079
<v Speaker 2>was a Monday night in May, and it was really

1014
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:39.119
<v Speaker 2>unsettling because again, I think that if the government is

1015
00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:42.599
<v Speaker 2>going to take a person's life for committing horrendous crimes

1016
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:46.400
<v Speaker 2>like Gaycy, that this should be a very solemn and

1017
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:51.920
<v Speaker 2>somber kind of atmosphere. You know, he's going to be executed. Okay,

1018
00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:54.119
<v Speaker 2>if you think that's good, that's good. Let's have some

1019
00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:58.000
<v Speaker 2>respect for the victims' families. Let's have it happen, and

1020
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:00.119
<v Speaker 2>let's be done with it. But there was so how

1021
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:03.000
<v Speaker 2>much focus on Gaysey that I thought to myself, how

1022
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.960
<v Speaker 2>could the victims' families even like this, you know, when

1023
00:58:06.199 --> 00:58:08.800
<v Speaker 2>their names were not even mentioned and it was all

1024
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.159
<v Speaker 2>about Gaysey and it was all about him being executed.

1025
00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I've just found it really, I found

1026
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:18.039
<v Speaker 2>it really Circuslike.

1027
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:22.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you say that John Wayne Gacy had said something

1028
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:27.519
<v Speaker 4>about you being involved in this case and your future career.

1029
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:29.119
<v Speaker 4>Can you tell us what he said?

1030
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm going to gloss over that a little bit,

1031
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:34.239
<v Speaker 2>but he had some final words for me that are

1032
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.679
<v Speaker 2>in my book, and he was absolutely right about them.

1033
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:41.679
<v Speaker 2>The idea being that I'm going to be forever associated

1034
00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:44.559
<v Speaker 2>with John Wayne Gacy. I didn't really think that at

1035
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:48.119
<v Speaker 2>the time, but it's very true. And even now, after

1036
00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:50.760
<v Speaker 2>all these years, when I finally decided to write my book,

1037
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.039
<v Speaker 2>because I all those years that I didn't write it,

1038
00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:55.320
<v Speaker 2>people kept telling me, you have a story, Please tell

1039
00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:59.440
<v Speaker 2>your story. It's interesting, it has some lessons in it

1040
00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:04.519
<v Speaker 2>for everybody, and some actually lighter notes and positive things

1041
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.440
<v Speaker 2>and empowerment coming out of it. But I just didn't

1042
00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:10.000
<v Speaker 2>want to stir that up again because it was very

1043
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:13.280
<v Speaker 2>negative at the time. But I can't help it. Everyone

1044
00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:16.239
<v Speaker 2>who knows who I am, when they introduced me, it's like, oh,

1045
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:18.599
<v Speaker 2>here's Karen. She represented John Wayne Gacy and his death

1046
00:59:18.639 --> 00:59:21.760
<v Speaker 2>row appeals. That's just like my tagline. And even though

1047
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't do death penalty work, I don't even do

1048
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:29.280
<v Speaker 2>criminal work anymore, I'm still introduced that with that tagline,

1049
00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:33.280
<v Speaker 2>and it's never going to end. That's what my obituary

1050
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:34.440
<v Speaker 2>we'll read. I'm quite sure.

1051
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you' write that soon after the OJ Simpson Trial

1052
00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:41.679
<v Speaker 4>of the Century occurred, and you were ready and you

1053
00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:46.559
<v Speaker 4>were prepared. You had done so much work doing press conferences,

1054
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:50.239
<v Speaker 4>and you were had been prepared to do the necessary

1055
00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:53.159
<v Speaker 4>sound bites and to be very effective when you did

1056
00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:56.400
<v Speaker 4>anytime you did it, do a press conference and whenever

1057
00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.320
<v Speaker 4>you spoke on behalf of John Wayne Gacy and the

1058
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:02.480
<v Speaker 4>death penalty lawsuit that you were filing.

1059
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so it was less than thirty days after

1060
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:10.199
<v Speaker 2>Gaysey's execution when OJ Simpson took that little drive in

1061
01:00:10.239 --> 01:00:13.360
<v Speaker 2>his white Bronco. And so of course when the media

1062
01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:16.199
<v Speaker 2>started to cover it, I was on their list because

1063
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:18.519
<v Speaker 2>I had on a first name basis with people from

1064
01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:22.440
<v Speaker 2>CNN and Fox and MSNBC and all my local stations.

1065
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.920
<v Speaker 2>And so I became a legal analyst, and that was

1066
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:29.960
<v Speaker 2>a direct result of having represented Gacy and preparing myself

1067
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:33.719
<v Speaker 2>and doing my homework and learning how to speak to

1068
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.960
<v Speaker 2>the media. I've also had radio shows for over thirty years.

1069
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Almost immediately after Gaysey, the local station in Chicago, one

1070
01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:45.480
<v Speaker 2>of the bigger stations, offered my law partner and me

1071
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:50.480
<v Speaker 2>a radio show, and we took it and we won awards,

1072
01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and I've had radio shows pretty much ever since. I

1073
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:54.960
<v Speaker 2>have one right now in WGN, which is one of

1074
01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:59.039
<v Speaker 2>our major am stations. So some of these things that

1075
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:02.920
<v Speaker 2>happened to me that were good, where as a result

1076
01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:05.880
<v Speaker 2>of something that was really bad. And that's kind of

1077
01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:09.280
<v Speaker 2>a lesson that I tried to teach in my book,

1078
01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:13.119
<v Speaker 2>which is we will all have bad things happen to us,

1079
01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:17.440
<v Speaker 2>whether it's professional, whether it's personal, depths in our family, illnesses,

1080
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:21.880
<v Speaker 2>getting fired from a job, whatever your adversities are, they're

1081
01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:23.559
<v Speaker 2>actually good for you in the long run. Not to

1082
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:25.960
<v Speaker 2>say it death is ever really good. What I'm saying

1083
01:01:26.039 --> 01:01:29.360
<v Speaker 2>is it makes you more resilient. It can make you

1084
01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.280
<v Speaker 2>more resilient, It can teach you lessons, It can teach

1085
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.679
<v Speaker 2>you what you're really made of. And I'm not sure

1086
01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:37.719
<v Speaker 2>that I would have learned what I was really made

1087
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:40.760
<v Speaker 2>of had I not done gacy that really put me

1088
01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:44.400
<v Speaker 2>through a lot of different kinds of tests, and I

1089
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:47.800
<v Speaker 2>think I came out more resilient and a better person

1090
01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:48.679
<v Speaker 2>and a better lawyer.

1091
01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:54.000
<v Speaker 4>And I guess you must be somewhat satisfied the progress

1092
01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:57.800
<v Speaker 4>that the death penalty is being abolished in many states.

1093
01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:01.400
<v Speaker 4>Give us the stats on how many states now doesn't exist.

1094
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Illinois abolished it twenty eleven, and I would say

1095
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:09.159
<v Speaker 2>it's somewhere between twenty and twenty five states have either

1096
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:12.400
<v Speaker 2>abolished it, put a moratorium on it, or in effect

1097
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:15.000
<v Speaker 2>they just don't use it anymore. So we've got about

1098
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:17.519
<v Speaker 2>half our states not really using it. And even as

1099
01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:21.519
<v Speaker 2>the states that use it, prosecution prosecutors are seeking it less,

1100
01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:24.159
<v Speaker 2>jurors are giving it less, even for some of these

1101
01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:28.280
<v Speaker 2>horrendous school shootings. The jurors just don't have the stomach

1102
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:30.960
<v Speaker 2>to give the death penalty to a young person. And

1103
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:33.199
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just the tide is changing. I think

1104
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:35.760
<v Speaker 2>that the fact that other countries don't use it, the

1105
01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.559
<v Speaker 2>fact that younger people are much more sensitive to these

1106
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:42.760
<v Speaker 2>kinds of things, that there is a complete change in

1107
01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:45.760
<v Speaker 2>the polls. And I think it's the lowest right now

1108
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:48.480
<v Speaker 2>that it's been in over one hundred years as far

1109
01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:51.519
<v Speaker 2>as the approval rate for the death penalty. And I

1110
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it's going to happen in my lifetime,

1111
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:56.079
<v Speaker 2>but I do see that in the near future there

1112
01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:59.639
<v Speaker 2>is going to be an abolition of the death penalty.

1113
01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so congratulations on your work in that regard.

1114
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. I'm not sure that I move that needle

1115
01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:08.519
<v Speaker 2>any with John Gasey, but I'd like to think that

1116
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm at least a little part of it.

1117
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:13.440
<v Speaker 4>Yes, I want to thank you so much for coming

1118
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:16.639
<v Speaker 4>on and talking about killing time with John Wayne Gacy

1119
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:20.239
<v Speaker 4>defending America's most evil serial killer on death Row. For

1120
01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:22.440
<v Speaker 4>those people that might want to check out your other

1121
01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:24.840
<v Speaker 4>work on do you have a website and do you

1122
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:25.920
<v Speaker 4>do any social media?

1123
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I do? You can just find me on Facebook of

1124
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:33.280
<v Speaker 2>the usual at Karen count twenty three. My website is

1125
01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:35.679
<v Speaker 2>where you should go for anything related to gaysey, if

1126
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.679
<v Speaker 2>I do book clubs and speaking engagements, and or if

1127
01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:42.480
<v Speaker 2>you want to ask me a question, it's www Karenconty

1128
01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:46.119
<v Speaker 2>dot com. And my radio show WGN Radio can go

1129
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:49.400
<v Speaker 2>on and listen to all my podcasted episodes Legal in Nature,

1130
01:03:49.440 --> 01:03:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and I have some really interesting guests. But thank you

1131
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:54.679
<v Speaker 2>for giving me that opportunity.

1132
01:03:54.199 --> 01:03:57.519
<v Speaker 4>Dan, Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure killing

1133
01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:01.280
<v Speaker 4>time with John Wayne Gacy defending America's most evil serial

1134
01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:03.639
<v Speaker 4>killer on death Row. Thank you so much for this

1135
01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:07.280
<v Speaker 4>interview Karen Conti, and good night, good night,