WEBVTT 1 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.440 We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Bitter Kitten Movie Club. 2 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:29.480 Halliciten's welcome back to another edition of the BKMC, a 3 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:32.079 supplemental edition of the PSO where we take a look 4 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:35.039 at one film per week and unpack its themes and 5 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.679 try to come to some sort of conclusion about it. Basically, 6 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:42.200 we're here to start a discussion. And this week's film 7 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:46.200 is director Paul Schrader's first Reformed, starring Ethan Hawk and 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.640 Amanda Sifried. This came out in twenty seventeen. It was 9 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:54.399 a highly critically acclaimed film, and the reason I chose 10 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.240 it for this month is partially because it was a 11 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:59.880 critically acclaimed film when we're trying not to pick like 12 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.560 pieces of trash, because what what is there to talk 13 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.280 about if it's if it's a piece of trash. But 14 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:08.799 more importantly, it was a film that I had not seen, 15 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:14.159 you had not seen, and I didn't know anything about it, and. 16 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:15.760 Which that's how I like it. 17 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.519 Uh, Well, we just did Babbett's Feast, which which you 18 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.120 and I and a couple of weeks ago we did 19 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.959 Wings of Desire, and that that film practically taught me 20 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:31.040 German So you know, it's nice to switch things over 21 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:34.239 to a film that we are completely unfamiliar with. 22 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:36.280 I had no idea where it was going. 23 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:44.079 Yeah, and in a way I regret that, you know, 24 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:46.680 we we had a busy week in terms of whatever 25 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:48.799 we had. We were watching Widow's Bay to do the 26 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.079 podcast on the finale, and then last night was my birthday, 27 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:53.959 and we went out to dinner for my birthday and 28 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:56.640 we sat down to watch this last night. And when 29 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.120 I got up this morning thinking about it, because it 30 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.200 is the kind of film that really really sticks with you, 31 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.599 I thought that sucks. I wish I'd had a chance 32 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:09.199 to see it twice before we had to, you know, 33 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:13.840 put together this podcast and review where we're to. I 34 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.159 feel like whatever I say about it today is going 35 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:18.319 to be a little incomplete, because it really is kind 36 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:18.560 of fun. 37 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.400 We have the post on a site you need. 38 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.000 To, but I'm not gonna be able to watch it 39 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:25.360 twice before I do the post. That's my point. There's 40 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:27.240 so much in it. There's so much I wish I 41 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:32.719 could have unpacked. And I did think in the first 42 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.280 twenty five thirty minutes of the film, I was like, 43 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:38.280 oh God, this was a mistake. I should not have 44 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.199 picked this one for the movie club because it's ponderous 45 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:47.360 and slow in a way that might not be right conducive. 46 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.120 But in fact, I think it is a film that 47 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.039 demands discussion, demands that you unpack it, demands that you 48 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.479 come to terms with it. Right, So I should just 49 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.840 say here to the all the bitter kittens out there, 50 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.919 Lorenzo has a very bad caul that he got overnight, 51 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:11.719 practically the hell, and we're trying to limit how much 52 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.919 he speaks, otherwise he's going to be coughing into a 53 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:15.039 into a microphone. 54 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:19.599 So but I I like when I watch a movie. 55 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.280 I like all kinds of movie. I like movies that 56 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.520 have like a whole story that you know from from 57 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.080 beginning to end. And I also like movies like this one. 58 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:28.800 I feel that they have moments, you know, you watch 59 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.120 you were to my in my mind, you're just watching moments, 60 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:33.840 you know, like moments of things. 61 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.719 Happening, right, which I like. 62 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.960 But it got to a point that I was like, 63 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.719 all right, I'm enjoying this because there are scenes where 64 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:45.599 they're talking about things that are making me think, But 65 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.479 I don't see the overall point of the whole thing. 66 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.159 You know, I didn't feel interesting for a long time, okay, 67 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.520 and then it got better. Then I finally got the point. 68 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:57.680 But but it was just like, all right, where are 69 00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:58.400 we going with this? 70 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.439 Yere No, I had that failing to and we both 71 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:04.319 said at various times, this film is trying to do 72 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.199 way too much. But I don't think that's actually the 73 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:11.319 case by the time you get to the end of it, 74 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:13.960 about halfway through the film, because I was like, all right, 75 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:17.600 we're referencing the Iraq War, we're referencing climate change, we're 76 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:22.839 referencing capitalism, we're referencing you know, megachurches. Like there was 77 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:27.160 so much, and I thought, I don't I feel like 78 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.079 this is sort of scatterbrain. And you know, director screenwriter 79 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.839 Paul Schrader is I don't know his exact age, but 80 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.120 he's a contemporary of Scorsese. He's roughly around eighty. He 81 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.639 would probably have been around seventy when he wrote this 82 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:43.319 film and directed this film. So there was a part 83 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:46.360 of me that thought, well, this is just an old 84 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.639 man coming to terms with the modern world, and there's 85 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:55.040 a certain sense of despair in the film, and I 86 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.279 thought that's what it was. I thought that it was 87 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:03.240 an older direct unpacking life in the twenty first century 88 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.800 in America. Because you know, a couple of times I 89 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:08.639 was looking at this film and trying to place it. 90 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:10.800 I'm like, all right, twenty seventeen. It was the first 91 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:16.120 year of the first Trump administration. I don't know how 92 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.560 much of this film was written. I don't know when 93 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.399 he wrote some of this stuff, but it felt very 94 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.199 twenty twenty six to me. It felt very much of 95 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.560 this moment rather than twenty seventeen. And part of me 96 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:33.040 was like, Wow, he really predicted where America was going, 97 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.279 because you know, there's an underlying discussion not just about 98 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.720 climate change, but about capitalism and about corporate corruption and 99 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:47.480 about essentially how corporations are literally buying religion in order 100 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:49.720 to you know, market themselves. 101 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:52.759 I think the main point of the whole movie it's despair. 102 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:57.439 I think it's how people are. Yeah, it gets to 103 00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.600 a point where people are just they can't take it 104 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.680 anymore and they have no hope anymore. And I feel 105 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.160 very much that's the kind of the point here of 106 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.439 faith and despair, you know, like sort of like. 107 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.079 I think there is yeah, at tension, there a conversation 108 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:17.199 there in fact that you see it in the conversation. 109 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:22.759 It was actually a fascinating scene to watch between Ethan 110 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.519 Hawk's Reverend Toller and Amanda Seifried's husband Philip Edinger, I 111 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:31.160 think is the name of the actor, when he's counseling him, 112 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.399 and the man is the is clearly clearly depressed, beyond depressed, 113 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.360 and this Reverend Ethan Hawk is trying to counsel him, 114 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:44.079 and you can see how ineffective his responses to this 115 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.639 guy are. And not only that, but will you come 116 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.560 away from that conversation back the rest of the film 117 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.879 realizing that that conversation went in the opposite direction exactly. 118 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:56.759 The reverend did not influence that man. That man wound 119 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:58.000 up influencing the reverence. 120 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.120 Yeah, which, yeah, yeah, that's another interesting part. 121 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:08.279 I thought their conversation theologically was very interesting, and there 122 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:13.439 were times where I thought Ethan Hawk's character was making 123 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.879 very very good points, and I was thinking, oh, so 124 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.199 he's actually good at his job. He's decent at his 125 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:24.120 job as a preacher. But then I don't know. I 126 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.560 halfway through that scene, I was like, is he making 127 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.279 good arguments or does it just sound like religiosity. It's 128 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.480 like the things you're supposed to say during these moments. 129 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.800 I do want to address your point, though, that this 130 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:47.079 film is a film about despair and I I'm in 131 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.040 the process of writing the posts that this podcast will 132 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.000 be attached to, but I actually wrote that line and then, 133 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.560 pardon me, struck it out or deleted it from the 134 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:02.319 post because I kept strtruggling with is this really a 135 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:06.800 film about one thing? Or are we supposed to just 136 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.199 here's something I want to say. It comes down to 137 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.759 for me, that final scene. The entire film comes down 138 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.000 to the final scene, and it comes down to what 139 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:21.920 you think is actually happening in that final scene. I'm 140 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:26.560 going to give you a quote from the director, Paul 141 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.199 Schrader that he gave to Indie Weier in twenty eighteen. 142 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:34.080 It was an interview about the film, and he's when 143 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.639 asked about the ending, I don't know what the ending is. 144 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:39.120 It can be read in either one of two ways. 145 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.639 One that a miracle has occurred and his life is spared. 146 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:45.399 The other is equally in my sense, optimistic, which is 147 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.799 that he drinks the draino and he's on all fours, 148 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:51.240 he's throwing up his stomach, and God comes over to him, 149 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.759 who has not talked to him for the whole movie, 150 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.360 and says, Reverend told her, you want to know what 151 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.879 heaven looks like. Here it is. This is exactly what 152 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.799 it looks like. It looks like one long kiss. And 153 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.679 that's the last thing he sees. M Okay. 154 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:05.240 Interesting. 155 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.360 So I think Schrader's trying to have it both ways here, huh, 156 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:15.840 because I don't think the ending is all that ambiguous, 157 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:21.159 to be quite honest. Yes, it's possible you could read 158 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.360 it that, Amanda saiv reads. Mary comes in at the 159 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.679 last second before he drinks the draino and saves his life, 160 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.600 and he runs into his arms and they kiss dramatically 161 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.279 and he achieves grace. That doesn't seem likely given the 162 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:41.720 film that we just watched. Putting aside the fact that 163 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.200 and as Schrader points out, the lighting in the scene changes. 164 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:49.600 The door was locked, so there was no way for 165 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:54.080 Mary to get in there. He's covered in barbed wire 166 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:57.080 and bleeding out, but they're hugging and kissing and as 167 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:01.240 if he's not. And I thought it was fairly obvious 168 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.120 that all of that was not happening as we were 169 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:07.399 seeing it, that he was actually dying and this was 170 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:08.279 the end of the movie. 171 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:09.879 Probably. Yeah. 172 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.600 I think Schrader feels that way too. I think Schrader 173 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.600 feels that that the ending is that he dies, that 174 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:21.279 he completes his suicide and he dies, it's not that 175 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:27.120 he is rescued by her. But I did think it 176 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:30.960 was interesting how when you unpack that quote of of 177 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:34.919 of Schrader, like he stacks the deck. He says, you 178 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.519 can read it either one or two ways, and he 179 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.120 describes it one way in a very flippant, one off sentence, 180 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.840 and then he describes it in the other way, in 181 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.879 this long sentence that very very detailed, and like, Okay, 182 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.200 well this is clearly what you thought this scene was. 183 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:53.519 But you're leaving it open to interpretation, and that's fine. 184 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:57.200 But I do think it's interesting because I think he 185 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:01.159 does allow for grace and hope in that final moment, 186 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:04.799 and he implies that Mary, that vision of Mary. And 187 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.840 let me just say, the two women in the film 188 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.159 are named Mary and Esther. It's very interesting that he 189 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.480 chose these extremely biblical names, one from the Old Testament 190 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:14.240 and one from the. 191 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.960 New Oh wow, yeah, I didn't know. Yeah. 192 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.200 So anyway, Mary, who is a mother figure, she's pregnant. 193 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.799 She shows up as this you know, she's God in 194 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.720 that moment. She is God offering him grace in that 195 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.879 moment and pulling him to the other side gracefully, which 196 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.799 in that sense that's a very uplifting sort of how 197 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:35.320 do you feel? 198 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.480 No, yeah, I was conflicted. But first of all, the 199 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:41.240 kiss went on forever, and I was like, all. 200 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:42.399 Right, it didn't seem realistic. 201 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:44.320 Yeah, I was like, this is not real. I mean, 202 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.240 it's going on forever. Where are we going with this? 203 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:47.360 And then the movie ends. 204 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:48.159 Because he died. 205 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:49.840 Yeah, because clearly. 206 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.600 He's I don't know, delirious there, and you know he 207 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:58.000 died obviously, right, It's interesting that how things switched because 208 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:00.000 he saw her present there, you know. 209 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.559 The whole are we going to talk about the bomb 210 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.200 thing and all the why. 211 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:06.320 Don't we wait until after the break? 212 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:08.919 Yeah, So there's also that that kind of shocked me 213 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:09.360 a little. 214 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:11.159 Yeah. 215 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.480 Anyway, all right, why don't we take a short break 216 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.279 and we'll come back to what he was planning to 217 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.600 do and whether or not why he stopped doing it. 218 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:25.000 Let's we'll be right back. We're back talking about First Reformed. 219 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.960 I do want to take a moment and note that 220 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:32.639 the performances are fantastic in this film, very subtle, very layered. 221 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.879 Ethan Hawk really is a fantastic He's a very good actor, 222 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.960 and one of the things that he's very, very very 223 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.639 good at is that sort of middle aged, broken down 224 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.840 despair kind of thing. He's very very good at giving 225 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:54.120 that life and nuance. Similarly, Amanda Sifried, who I think 226 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.559 is great. She's just a great actress. I think she's 227 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.360 I don't want this to sound dismiss him, because she's beautiful. 228 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:07.159 She's a beautiful blonde woman. She's a more interesting actress 229 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.600 than she had to be. She could have relied on 230 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.200 her lives a lot, but she is interesting and given 231 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:15.799 her first movie, like you know, first big movie, what 232 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.360 do you mean mean girls? Yeah, like you know, like 233 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.639 playing this dumb girl right right right, she could have 234 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.600 done a career at dumb blonde. But she's interesting. And 235 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:28.600 what I liked, what I found about interesting about her 236 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.000 is that her performance is inscrutable. At one point I 237 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:33.519 turned to you and I was like, I don't trust 238 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.080 this girl. I kind of thought she was leading him 239 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:39.080 on or and this was back when I thought this, 240 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:41.000 I was like, oh, so this is like an old 241 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:44.240 man musing on the world, how confusing the world is, 242 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:47.399 and he has this this sort of fum fatale. We 243 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.440 don't know what's going on with her, And I do 244 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.519 think part of that was deliberate. Like the film does 245 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.120 have a feeling through a good portion of it. It 246 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.120 feels like a horror film. The way that it's shot. 247 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.679 There's like this low rumble on the soundtrack and everything. 248 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:08.279 There is this sense of it being very, very ominous 249 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:11.559 throughout the entire film, and I again, I think all 250 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.039 of this was delibered on Schrader's part. It's sort of 251 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:19.279 a a misdirect. You think it's you're wondering whether this 252 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:23.440 woman is reliable, You're wondering whether he's getting pulled into 253 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.559 something that might be, But it's really just all about 254 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.840 his mind and where his thoughts were. It was really 255 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:37.120 about ideas and how people are relating to the world. 256 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.679 There was no major plot, there was no there. 257 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:40.679 Was no twist. 258 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:44.559 He was just a man full of despair. And we 259 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.399 should also mention we haven't brought this up. He's dying, right. 260 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:51.120 I mean that despair is it's not just about the 261 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.000 state of the world. In fact, that's something I want 262 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.120 to point out here is that again this was a misdirect. 263 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:59.120 It's not a film about climate change. It's not a 264 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:02.399 film about big relie a general, megachurches or capitalism. It's 265 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:07.519 about one guy who's dying, who is loaded with regrets 266 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.960 and who was having a crisis of faith. So in 267 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.600 that sense, it's a very very internal story. 268 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:13.879 Yeah. 269 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:15.759 I think it's interesting all the points made in the 270 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:20.879 movie when he talks to he's to the business speaper business, 271 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.399 you know, like the company and and all that, like 272 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.759 you know how you know, they see things completely different. 273 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:28.799 They see religion as just one. 274 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.360 Way of something else they can buy. 275 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:32.759 They can buy and then they can use, you know, 276 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:37.120 to their advantage. It's it's very interesting. I also like 277 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.039 the husband a lot. That's I think the husband. I 278 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.840 can't I can't stop thinking about the husband. The activists 279 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:46.440 who Philip ad in Jersey actually he I think his 280 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.399 character is very very interesting because sometimes you don't stop 281 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.879 to think how people think, right, And that was a 282 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.360 moment when I was like, Wow, that's how activist thing, 283 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.480 you know, like that's how the how, that's how their 284 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.720 mind works. Which it's interesting because it's very easy to 285 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.080 just be dismissive. 286 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.720 About the whole thing. Are you just crazy? Who cares? 287 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:05.919 You know? 288 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:06.799 Just depressed? 289 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.360 You just depressed, you know, like yeah, so the world 290 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:13.080 it is what it is, and you know, but it's 291 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:17.840 interesting to pay respect to someone who thinks that like that. 292 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.519 That was my point there. I mean, I was like, 293 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.480 all right, it's interesting. I really want to tell me 294 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:23.200 how you think. 295 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.320 That's why that scene with the tell of them was 296 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:27.879 actually one of the best scenes in the film is 297 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.879 because it was really well written and engrossing. You were 298 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.240 listening to both sides of this argument. 299 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.200 And you can see the despair and the disappointment and 300 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.679 lack of hope. You know, from his sport he mentioned 301 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.799 people who have fought so hard, right and died, like 302 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.360 the people in the Amazon region and then somebody else. 303 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.240 I believe those were all actual really yeah, real activists. 304 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.200 Yeah, so like how we do so much and then 305 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.240 at some point it means nothing, you know, And that's 306 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.320 how he's So that's his despair, right, like his disappointment, 307 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.840 and he doesn't want to have a child. He doesn't 308 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.160 want to bring a child into this kind of where 309 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.400 that he lives in, which is interesting because yeah, it's 310 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:11.200 very interesting. 311 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:12.880 Again. 312 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.839 I want to make the point that it's very easy 313 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.799 to be dismissive about how people think and you know, 314 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.759 things like that because they don't line up with how 315 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.440 you feel about things, and you think you just roll 316 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.400 your eyes. And at that time, I was like, you know, 317 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.519 I really want to listen to him and see what 318 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:33.559 he has to say, and here and listen to what 319 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.839 he has to say because it's interesting. Because then when 320 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.039 you stop and think about and pay attention to someone 321 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.119 like that, it's easier to understand them when you when 322 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.200 you when you find out where they're coming from. 323 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.720 I agree, and I can. 324 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.880 My point with all this is that I can see 325 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.519 the preacher feeling the same way, like he's like, oh, okay. 326 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:02.119 Well, that's just the thing I think. You know, there's 327 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.000 this conversation between these two people, and it should be 328 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:09.960 a conversation about hope versus despair, but they are both 329 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.279 wallowing in their despair. And the reason I mean, I 330 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.599 don't want to see the reason that Michael winds up 331 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:24.079 killing himself is because the Reverend Toller is simply incapable 332 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:25.359 of pulling him out of that funk. 333 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:25.559 Right. 334 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:31.720 The film presents Mary as this figure of hope, because 335 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:37.000 throughout the film she is, you know, relatively implacable and unruffled. 336 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.079 Even on the day her husband kills himself, she is 337 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.559 still relatively right. That's why I was like, what's wrong 338 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.799 with this chick? What's going on? 339 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:45.839 I thought she had plot the whole thing. Yeah, plot 340 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:46.519 the whole thing. 341 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.880 Because she wanted to have the child and he didn't, 342 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:51.319 so kill the outman. 343 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.799 In the end. I think she's just this figure of grace, 344 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:59.640 like she is uncomplicated, she has faith and her husband doesn't, 345 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:05.519 and she I guess I don't let me ask you something, 346 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.839 do you? How do you look at her relationship with 347 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.880 the Reverend. First off, there is that scene where they 348 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.640 which we haven't even touched, where they levitate through space. 349 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:19.039 And what I loved about that scene what it felt 350 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.960 like a pure David Lynch moment because up until that 351 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.599 point the film is static. It is very controlled, it 352 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.440 is very spare, and it's and it's you know, he 353 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.680 talked about Schrider, talked about some of the influences you know, 354 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.599 other directors that and I know he talked about Bergmann 355 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.599 and Theodore Dreyer, and he talked about Ozu, who you 356 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:39.359 love well. 357 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.119 I can see, I can see I can see the 358 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.319 I see I can see Bergerman in dialogue, the way 359 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.119 they spoke. 360 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.319 Yes, it had that very sort of Scandinavian spaireness to. 361 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.160 And the some of the scenes where the way they 362 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:52.200 were shot, I can see. 363 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.079 Ozu like everything's framed in the center of the frame 364 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:58.200 in mid distance from you know, and the camera doesn't move, 365 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:03.119 and so it has a very very spare interior sense 366 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.680 to what OsO films are like that. And then suddenly 367 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.440 there's this moment, this Lynchian moment, where just reality gets 368 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.559 slipped away, and I first I had a split second 369 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.400 like what the what the hell? And then I loved it. 370 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.680 I love that suddenly we were on this metaphysical journey, 371 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:28.039 whether real or not. And I think that moment helps 372 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:32.680 to secure the final moment of the film, which also 373 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.200 can be seen as purely fantasy, as something that's not 374 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.519 really happening outside of that man's mind. So I think 375 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.519 it established a motif. But I don't know how much 376 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.759 of that scene actually had. Did she actually lay on 377 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:46.599 top of him like that? 378 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:47.960 I think that whole thing happened. 379 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:50.480 I think does she have something for him? 380 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.279 Is she? I don't know. I don't think so. 381 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:54.119 I don't think so. 382 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:55.079 I don't think so. 383 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.039 Maybe he has some feelings towards her. 384 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.319 Well, obviously by the end he's making out with her 385 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:02.640 or he's dreaming that he is. 386 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.160 But I don't think not not her. I think she's 387 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.559 just very spiritual in a way. Yeah, and she's just 388 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.640 seeking for that that kind of and she's grieving. Yes, 389 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.079 I that's how I felt about the whole thing. I 390 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.400 actually thought of it the way everything, the way the 391 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.960 whole thing was talked about. I just loved when she's 392 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.039 when he's like, do you want me to do this, 393 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.400 and and it's like, yeah, sure, why, yeah you know what, Yeah, 394 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:27.920 let's do it. I thought it was great. Yeah, it 395 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.759 felt real. Uh that's how you know. I guess people 396 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.799 would talk and it's just it was nice, I thought. 397 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.599 I thought, again, listening, I think I think he just 398 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.359 he was listening to her, giving her something, right, And 399 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:43.119 that's that's. 400 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.599 Not it had an effect on him because he still 401 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:48.160