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Speaker 1: We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Bitter Kitten Movie Club.

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Halliciten's welcome back to another edition of the BKMC, a

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supplemental edition of the PSO where we take a look

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at one film per week and unpack its themes and

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try to come to some sort of conclusion about it. Basically,

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we're here to start a discussion. And this week's film

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is director Paul Schrader's first Reformed, starring Ethan Hawk and

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Amanda Sifried. This came out in twenty seventeen. It was

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a highly critically acclaimed film, and the reason I chose

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it for this month is partially because it was a

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critically acclaimed film when we're trying not to pick like

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pieces of trash, because what what is there to talk

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about if it's if it's a piece of trash. But

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more importantly, it was a film that I had not seen,

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you had not seen, and I didn't know anything about it, and.

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Speaker 2: Which that's how I like it.

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Speaker 1: Uh, Well, we just did Babbett's Feast, which which you

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and I and a couple of weeks ago we did

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Wings of Desire, and that that film practically taught me

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German So you know, it's nice to switch things over

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to a film that we are completely unfamiliar with.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea where it was going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a way I regret that, you know,

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we we had a busy week in terms of whatever

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we had. We were watching Widow's Bay to do the

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podcast on the finale, and then last night was my birthday,

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and we went out to dinner for my birthday and

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we sat down to watch this last night. And when

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I got up this morning thinking about it, because it

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is the kind of film that really really sticks with you,

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I thought that sucks. I wish I'd had a chance

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to see it twice before we had to, you know,

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put together this podcast and review where we're to. I

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feel like whatever I say about it today is going

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to be a little incomplete, because it really is kind

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of fun.

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Speaker 2: We have the post on a site you need.

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Speaker 1: To, but I'm not gonna be able to watch it

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twice before I do the post. That's my point. There's

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so much in it. There's so much I wish I

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could have unpacked. And I did think in the first

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twenty five thirty minutes of the film, I was like,

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oh God, this was a mistake. I should not have

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picked this one for the movie club because it's ponderous

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and slow in a way that might not be right conducive.

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But in fact, I think it is a film that

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demands discussion, demands that you unpack it, demands that you

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come to terms with it. Right, So I should just

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say here to the all the bitter kittens out there,

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Lorenzo has a very bad caul that he got overnight,

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practically the hell, and we're trying to limit how much

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he speaks, otherwise he's going to be coughing into a

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into a microphone.

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Speaker 3: So but I I like when I watch a movie.

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I like all kinds of movie. I like movies that

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have like a whole story that you know from from

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beginning to end. And I also like movies like this one.

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I feel that they have moments, you know, you watch

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you were to my in my mind, you're just watching moments,

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you know, like moments of things.

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Speaker 2: Happening, right, which I like.

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Speaker 3: But it got to a point that I was like,

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all right, I'm enjoying this because there are scenes where

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they're talking about things that are making me think, But

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I don't see the overall point of the whole thing.

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You know, I didn't feel interesting for a long time, okay,

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and then it got better. Then I finally got the point.

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But but it was just like, all right, where are

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we going with this?

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Speaker 1: Yere No, I had that failing to and we both

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said at various times, this film is trying to do

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way too much. But I don't think that's actually the

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case by the time you get to the end of it,

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about halfway through the film, because I was like, all right,

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we're referencing the Iraq War, we're referencing climate change, we're

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referencing capitalism, we're referencing you know, megachurches. Like there was

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so much, and I thought, I don't I feel like

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this is sort of scatterbrain. And you know, director screenwriter

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Paul Schrader is I don't know his exact age, but

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he's a contemporary of Scorsese. He's roughly around eighty. He

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would probably have been around seventy when he wrote this

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film and directed this film. So there was a part

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of me that thought, well, this is just an old

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man coming to terms with the modern world, and there's

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a certain sense of despair in the film, and I

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thought that's what it was. I thought that it was

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an older direct unpacking life in the twenty first century

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in America. Because you know, a couple of times I

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was looking at this film and trying to place it.

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I'm like, all right, twenty seventeen. It was the first

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year of the first Trump administration. I don't know how

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much of this film was written. I don't know when

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he wrote some of this stuff, but it felt very

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twenty twenty six to me. It felt very much of

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this moment rather than twenty seventeen. And part of me

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was like, Wow, he really predicted where America was going,

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because you know, there's an underlying discussion not just about

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climate change, but about capitalism and about corporate corruption and

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about essentially how corporations are literally buying religion in order

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to you know, market themselves.

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Speaker 3: I think the main point of the whole movie it's despair.

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I think it's how people are. Yeah, it gets to

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a point where people are just they can't take it

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anymore and they have no hope anymore. And I feel

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very much that's the kind of the point here of

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faith and despair, you know, like sort of like.

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Speaker 1: I think there is yeah, at tension, there a conversation

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there in fact that you see it in the conversation.

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It was actually a fascinating scene to watch between Ethan

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Hawk's Reverend Toller and Amanda Seifried's husband Philip Edinger, I

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think is the name of the actor, when he's counseling him,

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and the man is the is clearly clearly depressed, beyond depressed,

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and this Reverend Ethan Hawk is trying to counsel him,

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and you can see how ineffective his responses to this

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guy are. And not only that, but will you come

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away from that conversation back the rest of the film

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realizing that that conversation went in the opposite direction exactly.

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The reverend did not influence that man. That man wound

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up influencing the reverence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which, yeah, yeah, that's another interesting part.

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Speaker 1: I thought their conversation theologically was very interesting, and there

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were times where I thought Ethan Hawk's character was making

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very very good points, and I was thinking, oh, so

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he's actually good at his job. He's decent at his

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job as a preacher. But then I don't know. I

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halfway through that scene, I was like, is he making

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good arguments or does it just sound like religiosity. It's

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like the things you're supposed to say during these moments.

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I do want to address your point, though, that this

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film is a film about despair and I I'm in

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the process of writing the posts that this podcast will

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be attached to, but I actually wrote that line and then,

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pardon me, struck it out or deleted it from the

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post because I kept strtruggling with is this really a

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film about one thing? Or are we supposed to just

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here's something I want to say. It comes down to

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for me, that final scene. The entire film comes down

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to the final scene, and it comes down to what

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you think is actually happening in that final scene. I'm

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going to give you a quote from the director, Paul

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Schrader that he gave to Indie Weier in twenty eighteen.

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It was an interview about the film, and he's when

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asked about the ending, I don't know what the ending is.

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It can be read in either one of two ways.

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One that a miracle has occurred and his life is spared.

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The other is equally in my sense, optimistic, which is

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that he drinks the draino and he's on all fours,

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he's throwing up his stomach, and God comes over to him,

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who has not talked to him for the whole movie,

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and says, Reverend told her, you want to know what

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heaven looks like. Here it is. This is exactly what

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it looks like. It looks like one long kiss. And

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that's the last thing he sees. M Okay.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: So I think Schrader's trying to have it both ways here, huh,

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because I don't think the ending is all that ambiguous,

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to be quite honest. Yes, it's possible you could read

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it that, Amanda saiv reads. Mary comes in at the

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last second before he drinks the draino and saves his life,

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and he runs into his arms and they kiss dramatically

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and he achieves grace. That doesn't seem likely given the

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film that we just watched. Putting aside the fact that

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and as Schrader points out, the lighting in the scene changes.

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The door was locked, so there was no way for

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Mary to get in there. He's covered in barbed wire

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and bleeding out, but they're hugging and kissing and as

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if he's not. And I thought it was fairly obvious

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that all of that was not happening as we were

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seeing it, that he was actually dying and this was

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the end of the movie.

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Speaker 2: Probably. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think Schrader feels that way too. I think Schrader

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feels that that the ending is that he dies, that

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he completes his suicide and he dies, it's not that

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he is rescued by her. But I did think it

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was interesting how when you unpack that quote of of

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of Schrader, like he stacks the deck. He says, you

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can read it either one or two ways, and he

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describes it one way in a very flippant, one off sentence,

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and then he describes it in the other way, in

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this long sentence that very very detailed, and like, Okay,

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well this is clearly what you thought this scene was.

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But you're leaving it open to interpretation, and that's fine.

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But I do think it's interesting because I think he

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does allow for grace and hope in that final moment,

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and he implies that Mary, that vision of Mary. And

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let me just say, the two women in the film

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are named Mary and Esther. It's very interesting that he

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chose these extremely biblical names, one from the Old Testament

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and one from the.

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Speaker 2: New Oh wow, yeah, I didn't know. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Mary, who is a mother figure, she's pregnant.

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She shows up as this you know, she's God in

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that moment. She is God offering him grace in that

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moment and pulling him to the other side gracefully, which

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in that sense that's a very uplifting sort of how

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do you feel?

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, I was conflicted. But first of all, the

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kiss went on forever, and I was like, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, it didn't seem realistic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, this is not real. I mean,

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it's going on forever. Where are we going with this?

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And then the movie ends.

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Speaker 1: Because he died.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because clearly.

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Speaker 3: He's I don't know, delirious there, and you know he

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died obviously, right, It's interesting that how things switched because

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he saw her present there, you know.

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Speaker 2: The whole are we going to talk about the bomb

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thing and all the why.

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Speaker 1: Don't we wait until after the break?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's also that that kind of shocked me

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a little.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, all right, why don't we take a short break

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and we'll come back to what he was planning to

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do and whether or not why he stopped doing it.

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Let's we'll be right back. We're back talking about First Reformed.

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I do want to take a moment and note that

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the performances are fantastic in this film, very subtle, very layered.

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Ethan Hawk really is a fantastic He's a very good actor,

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and one of the things that he's very, very very

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good at is that sort of middle aged, broken down

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despair kind of thing. He's very very good at giving

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that life and nuance. Similarly, Amanda Sifried, who I think

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is great. She's just a great actress. I think she's

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I don't want this to sound dismiss him, because she's beautiful.

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She's a beautiful blonde woman. She's a more interesting actress

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than she had to be. She could have relied on

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her lives a lot, but she is interesting and given

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her first movie, like you know, first big movie, what

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do you mean mean girls? Yeah, like you know, like

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playing this dumb girl right right right, she could have

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done a career at dumb blonde. But she's interesting. And

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what I liked, what I found about interesting about her

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is that her performance is inscrutable. At one point I

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turned to you and I was like, I don't trust

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this girl. I kind of thought she was leading him

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on or and this was back when I thought this,

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I was like, oh, so this is like an old

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man musing on the world, how confusing the world is,

242
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and he has this this sort of fum fatale. We

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don't know what's going on with her, And I do

244
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think part of that was deliberate. Like the film does

245
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have a feeling through a good portion of it. It

246
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feels like a horror film. The way that it's shot.

247
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There's like this low rumble on the soundtrack and everything.

248
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There is this sense of it being very, very ominous

249
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throughout the entire film, and I again, I think all

250
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of this was delibered on Schrader's part. It's sort of

251
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a a misdirect. You think it's you're wondering whether this

252
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woman is reliable, You're wondering whether he's getting pulled into

253
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something that might be, But it's really just all about

254
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his mind and where his thoughts were. It was really

255
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about ideas and how people are relating to the world.

256
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There was no major plot, there was no there.

257
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Speaker 2: Was no twist.

258
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Speaker 1: He was just a man full of despair. And we

259
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should also mention we haven't brought this up. He's dying, right.

260
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I mean that despair is it's not just about the

261
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state of the world. In fact, that's something I want

262
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to point out here is that again this was a misdirect.

263
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It's not a film about climate change. It's not a

264
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film about big relie a general, megachurches or capitalism. It's

265
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about one guy who's dying, who is loaded with regrets

266
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and who was having a crisis of faith. So in

267
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that sense, it's a very very internal story.

268
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

269
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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting all the points made in the

270
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movie when he talks to he's to the business speaper business,

271
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you know, like the company and and all that, like

272
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you know how you know, they see things completely different.

273
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Speaker 2: They see religion as just one.

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Speaker 1: Way of something else they can buy.

275
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Speaker 3: They can buy and then they can use, you know,

276
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to their advantage. It's it's very interesting. I also like

277
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the husband a lot. That's I think the husband. I

278
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can't I can't stop thinking about the husband. The activists

279
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,440
who Philip ad in Jersey actually he I think his

280
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character is very very interesting because sometimes you don't stop

281
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to think how people think, right, And that was a

282
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moment when I was like, Wow, that's how activist thing,

283
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,480
you know, like that's how the how, that's how their

284
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mind works. Which it's interesting because it's very easy to

285
00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:04,080
just be dismissive.

286
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Speaker 2: About the whole thing. Are you just crazy? Who cares?

287
00:16:05,759 --> 00:16:05,919
You know?

288
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Speaker 1: Just depressed?

289
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Speaker 3: You just depressed, you know, like yeah, so the world

290
00:16:09,399 --> 00:16:13,080
it is what it is, and you know, but it's

291
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,840
interesting to pay respect to someone who thinks that like that.

292
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That was my point there. I mean, I was like,

293
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all right, it's interesting. I really want to tell me

294
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how you think.

295
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 1: That's why that scene with the tell of them was

296
00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:27,879
actually one of the best scenes in the film is

297
00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:30,879
because it was really well written and engrossing. You were

298
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,240
listening to both sides of this argument.

299
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Speaker 3: And you can see the despair and the disappointment and

300
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,679
lack of hope. You know, from his sport he mentioned

301
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,799
people who have fought so hard, right and died, like

302
00:16:43,919 --> 00:16:47,360
the people in the Amazon region and then somebody else.

303
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: I believe those were all actual really yeah, real activists.

304
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like how we do so much and then

305
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,240
at some point it means nothing, you know, And that's

306
00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:01,320
how he's So that's his despair, right, like his disappointment,

307
00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:03,840
and he doesn't want to have a child. He doesn't

308
00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:06,160
want to bring a child into this kind of where

309
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,400
that he lives in, which is interesting because yeah, it's

310
00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:11,200
very interesting.

311
00:17:12,519 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 2: Again.

312
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,839
Speaker 3: I want to make the point that it's very easy

313
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,799
to be dismissive about how people think and you know,

314
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,759
things like that because they don't line up with how

315
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,440
you feel about things, and you think you just roll

316
00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:28,400
your eyes. And at that time, I was like, you know,

317
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,519
I really want to listen to him and see what

318
00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:33,559
he has to say, and here and listen to what

319
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:36,839
he has to say because it's interesting. Because then when

320
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,039
you stop and think about and pay attention to someone

321
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,119
like that, it's easier to understand them when you when

322
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,200
you when you find out where they're coming from.

323
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 1: I agree, and I can.

324
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,880
Speaker 3: My point with all this is that I can see

325
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,519
the preacher feeling the same way, like he's like, oh, okay.

326
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,119
Speaker 1: Well, that's just the thing I think. You know, there's

327
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,000
this conversation between these two people, and it should be

328
00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:09,960
a conversation about hope versus despair, but they are both

329
00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:14,279
wallowing in their despair. And the reason I mean, I

330
00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:17,599
don't want to see the reason that Michael winds up

331
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:24,079
killing himself is because the Reverend Toller is simply incapable

332
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,359
of pulling him out of that funk.

333
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:25,559
Speaker 2: Right.

334
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 1: The film presents Mary as this figure of hope, because

335
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:37,000
throughout the film she is, you know, relatively implacable and unruffled.

336
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,079
Even on the day her husband kills himself, she is

337
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,559
still relatively right. That's why I was like, what's wrong

338
00:18:42,599 --> 00:18:43,799
with this chick? What's going on?

339
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,839
Speaker 2: I thought she had plot the whole thing. Yeah, plot

340
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,519
the whole thing.

341
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,880
Speaker 3: Because she wanted to have the child and he didn't,

342
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,319
so kill the outman.

343
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,799
Speaker 1: In the end. I think she's just this figure of grace,

344
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,640
like she is uncomplicated, she has faith and her husband doesn't,

345
00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:05,519
and she I guess I don't let me ask you something,

346
00:19:05,559 --> 00:19:08,839
do you? How do you look at her relationship with

347
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,880
the Reverend. First off, there is that scene where they

348
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,640
which we haven't even touched, where they levitate through space.

349
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,039
And what I loved about that scene what it felt

350
00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:21,960
like a pure David Lynch moment because up until that

351
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,599
point the film is static. It is very controlled, it

352
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,440
is very spare, and it's and it's you know, he

353
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,680
talked about Schrider, talked about some of the influences you know,

354
00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:35,599
other directors that and I know he talked about Bergmann

355
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,599
and Theodore Dreyer, and he talked about Ozu, who you

356
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:39,359
love well.

357
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,119
Speaker 3: I can see, I can see I can see the

358
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,319
I see I can see Bergerman in dialogue, the way

359
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,119
they spoke.

360
00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,319
Speaker 1: Yes, it had that very sort of Scandinavian spaireness to.

361
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 3: And the some of the scenes where the way they

362
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,200
were shot, I can see.

363
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:55,079
Speaker 1: Ozu like everything's framed in the center of the frame

364
00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:58,200
in mid distance from you know, and the camera doesn't move,

365
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,119
and so it has a very very spare interior sense

366
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,680
to what OsO films are like that. And then suddenly

367
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,440
there's this moment, this Lynchian moment, where just reality gets

368
00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,559
slipped away, and I first I had a split second

369
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,400
like what the what the hell? And then I loved it.

370
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,680
I love that suddenly we were on this metaphysical journey,

371
00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:28,039
whether real or not. And I think that moment helps

372
00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:32,680
to secure the final moment of the film, which also

373
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:35,200
can be seen as purely fantasy, as something that's not

374
00:20:35,279 --> 00:20:38,519
really happening outside of that man's mind. So I think

375
00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:43,519
it established a motif. But I don't know how much

376
00:20:43,559 --> 00:20:45,759
of that scene actually had. Did she actually lay on

377
00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:46,599
top of him like that?

378
00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: I think that whole thing happened.

379
00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: I think does she have something for him?

380
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,279
Speaker 2: Is she? I don't know. I don't think so.

381
00:20:53,559 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

382
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,079
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

383
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,039
Speaker 3: Maybe he has some feelings towards her.

384
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,319
Speaker 1: Well, obviously by the end he's making out with her

385
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,640
or he's dreaming that he is.

386
00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 3: But I don't think not not her. I think she's

387
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,559
just very spiritual in a way. Yeah, and she's just

388
00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:10,640
seeking for that that kind of and she's grieving. Yes,

389
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,079
I that's how I felt about the whole thing. I

390
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,400
actually thought of it the way everything, the way the

391
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,960
whole thing was talked about. I just loved when she's

392
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,039
when he's like, do you want me to do this,

393
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,400
and and it's like, yeah, sure, why, yeah you know what, Yeah,

394
00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,920
let's do it. I thought it was great. Yeah, it

395
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,759
felt real. Uh that's how you know. I guess people

396
00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:34,799
would talk and it's just it was nice, I thought.

397
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,599
I thought, again, listening, I think I think he just

398
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,359
he was listening to her, giving her something, right, And

399
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:43,119
that's that's.

400
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,599
Speaker 1: Not it had an effect on him because he still

401
00:21:46,599 --> 00:21:48,160
wounds up killing himself.

402
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:50,799
Speaker 3: I know. I I guess because he was going to

403
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:51,440
die anyway.

404
00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 1: I I he was dying.

405
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was dying anyway. I So I guess he

406
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,119
felt like he needed to do something. I don't understand

407
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,880
the the so, you know, the whole bomb thing, I

408
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,839
don't understand that, the vest and all that, well, he

409
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,599
wanted to take out right. But to me, corporate guy basically,

410
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,079
I know. But to me that but that came out

411
00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:14,160
of nowhere, out of nowhere to I agree. And it

412
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,920
also I think it speaks to how how much despair

413
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,880
he was feeling and how fucked up his mind was.

414
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,680
Because you know, the church, they establish it several times,

415
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,920
and it's like this very important historical right they called

416
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,559
a tourist church, but you know, the literal underground railroad

417
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,599
runs underneath the church, and they make a point of

418
00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:40,119
trying to you know, and he seems to be somewhat

419
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,839
proud of that fact that he is the steward of

420
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,079
this church. So the idea that he would blow up

421
00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:48,240
this historic church, I was like, he's lost it. I

422
00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:50,640
don't think he's thinking this through. I don't think anything.

423
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,240
I don't think any of that makes any sense. He

424
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:59,039
was in the throes of despair, dying and having a

425
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,039
christ A fate. Judging by the way he talked to

426
00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:05,799
the activist, the husband and the arguments, the points he made,

427
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,640
it doesn't make sense that he would do that. I

428
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:09,640
was really surprised.

429
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: Well, I just think he deteriorated over the course of

430
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,319
the film. But as the viewer, you don't get that. No,

431
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,039
that's I mean, I agree. Like I said, it's the

432
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,119
kind of film that I wished I could have sat

433
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,440
and watched a second time before we had this conversation,

434
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:25,920
because it kind of demands that sort of you know,

435
00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:29,319
once you know where the film winds up, you kind

436
00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,079
of want to go back and see how how all

437
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,440
the things were laid out and whether things make more

438
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,119
sense the second time around. But this film will stick

439
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:39,400
with me.

440
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: I think it's.

441
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a fascinating film. I think the

442
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:49,160
performances are fantastic. I think the direction is so inte

443
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,559
like beyond my pay grade, intelligent, like just like I

444
00:23:53,599 --> 00:23:58,640
really have to work to unpack this film. A really

445
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,240
great film, I really great quiet film that is, and

446
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,599
it's you know, it's it could have been a lot

447
00:24:05,599 --> 00:24:07,599
more depressing than it is. Let me put it that way.

448
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,640
It is not an uplift thing film, but it's not

449
00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:13,559
actually as depressing as it as we're making it sound.

450
00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: No, But but I I'm it.

451
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,839
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting to question things. And I think

452
00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:22,160
again back to the conversation with the husband, I thought

453
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,519
that was very interesting h of it because because the

454
00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:28,960
preacher thought he had it, oh in the bag, you know, Oh,

455
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,720
this is easy, I'm just going to talk to him,

456
00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:34,440
and and and all of a sudden the conversation turned uh,

457
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,000
and the activist the husband had very interesting points. Yeah,

458
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,799
he made very interesting points. And I think even the

459
00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:42,799
Preacher realized that. And then they were in a situation

460
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,000
where like, Okay, I wasn't surprised that he killed himself

461
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,240
the the no, I think it was pretty clearly.

462
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: It was clear.

463
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I thought, yeah, which is very sad because

464
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:57,400
I think in a way, I think preacher made the

465
00:24:57,559 --> 00:24:58,400
made things worse.

466
00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:01,519
Speaker 1: I don't think he was k bull of meeting that moment. Yeah,

467
00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:04,759
he was dying himself. He was racked with guilt over

468
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:06,880
the death of his own child, which he felt that

469
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,000
he had caused. Oh and then we didn't even get

470
00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:14,079
into like the scene with Esther the choir director, where

471
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,039
he tells her, I despise you and all of that,

472
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,319
and I went two ways with that. I was like, oh,

473
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,920
he's pushing her away because he doesn't want her there

474
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,880
when he blows up the church. But no, I think

475
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,440
that just speaks to how how dark he is and

476
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,119
how how lost he is. He's gone, He's gone at

477
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:31,440
that point.

478
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,319
Speaker 2: But again, he.

479
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: Made some very interesting points. The reason why he because

480
00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:39,839
he felt that the way she behaved was actually making

481
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,359
him worse mentally, right, which is very It was a

482
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,960
very interesting he put it in a very interesting way,

483
00:25:46,039 --> 00:25:46,400
I thought.

484
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: But he was fucked up because she's only showing concern

485
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,000
for him. I agree if he If your response to

486
00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:56,880
someone showing concern is I despise you, well, you are lost.

487
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,279
You are very very.

488
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 3: Lost, because concern points out certain things that you sometimes

489
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,200
don't want to hear. That's the point that I'm trying

490
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,839
to that, that's what I'm trying to make. I mean,

491
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,559
she had a very good intention, so like she wanted

492
00:26:10,599 --> 00:26:14,599
to help him, but in his mind, whatever she did

493
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,960
or said was triggering things that he didn't want to acknowledge,

494
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,200
which I thought it was very interesting. He did a

495
00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:22,880
very good job pointing it out to her.

496
00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:24,799
Speaker 2: I think, although you know.

497
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: The relationships and what's going on inside people's heads in

498
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,240
this film is very very complicated and grown up and

499
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:35,759
you need to unpack it. It's not something that you know,

500
00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:37,960
this is a good person and this is a bad person.

501
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:39,759
It's you know, it's all people.

502
00:26:40,279 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 3: There are some so some very clever interesting conversation, like

503
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:49,240
when when they're talking about whatever they had that was brief, brief,

504
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:51,759
and then he says, she says, do you think what

505
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:54,519
we did was the sin? And it's like, no, I've

506
00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:58,880
seen real sin. That wasn't that. That wasn't it. Which

507
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,799
I thought it was very interesting because he's aware of things.

508
00:27:01,839 --> 00:27:03,400
He's completely aware of things.

509
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: So my question to the kittens listening is, I have

510
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,279
several questions. Do you think this is a film about

511
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,319
hope or do you think it's a film about despair?

512
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,640
Do you think it's about faith? Do you think the

513
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,279
reverence act at the end was an act of faith

514
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,759
in you know, believing that God was going to come

515
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:30,119
and lead him to salvation. Do you think Mary was

516
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:34,200
a dark figure or a savior? There's just a lot

517
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,240
there to unpack. Do you think this film had anything

518
00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:39,960
to say about climate change, anything to say about a

519
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,440
big religion, anything to say about corporate control, because personally,

520
00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:47,599
I don't I don't think it had much to say

521
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:51,559
about any of those things they were dressing for a

522
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,039
basic question of hope versus despair and whether faith has

523
00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:57,480
a role in navigating that.

524
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 3: I also think the way he wanted to die, I

525
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,200
mean like a cremated and whatever and then had its

526
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,880
spirit spread all over the do you mean the husband

527
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,240
the hutband, I thought that was it. I mean, clearly

528
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,720
they were talking about the climate there that the kids

529
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,480
were singing some weird song about Yeah, it was fired anyway.

530
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,400
So yeah, it's an interesting movie and it makes you

531
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,400
think about all these things that goes on in your

532
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,359
head sometimes and you're you're not aware.

533
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,039
Speaker 2: Of great Like I said.

534
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:33,559
Speaker 1: I I would love to hear your answer to any

535
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,160
of those questions. And we'll be back next week to

536
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,880
talk about The Bride, which we have also never seen,

537
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,319
but I don't think it'll be quite as downbeat as

538
00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:44,920
this one. Uh So, until then, take care of ussel

539
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,640
I love you mean it.

540
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye