Speaker 1: We're Tomy Lorenzo and this is the Bitter Kitten Movie Club.
Halliciten's welcome back to another edition of the BKMC, a
supplemental edition of the PSO where we take a look
at one film per week and unpack its themes and
try to come to some sort of conclusion about it. Basically,
we're here to start a discussion. And this week's film
is director Paul Schrader's first Reformed, starring Ethan Hawk and
Amanda Sifried. This came out in twenty seventeen. It was
a highly critically acclaimed film, and the reason I chose
it for this month is partially because it was a
critically acclaimed film when we're trying not to pick like
pieces of trash, because what what is there to talk
about if it's if it's a piece of trash. But
more importantly, it was a film that I had not seen,
you had not seen, and I didn't know anything about it, and.
Speaker 2: Which that's how I like it.
Speaker 1: Uh, Well, we just did Babbett's Feast, which which you
and I and a couple of weeks ago we did
Wings of Desire, and that that film practically taught me
German So you know, it's nice to switch things over
to a film that we are completely unfamiliar with.
Speaker 2: I had no idea where it was going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a way I regret that, you know,
we we had a busy week in terms of whatever
we had. We were watching Widow's Bay to do the
podcast on the finale, and then last night was my birthday,
and we went out to dinner for my birthday and
we sat down to watch this last night. And when
I got up this morning thinking about it, because it
is the kind of film that really really sticks with you,
I thought that sucks. I wish I'd had a chance
to see it twice before we had to, you know,
put together this podcast and review where we're to. I
feel like whatever I say about it today is going
to be a little incomplete, because it really is kind
of fun.
Speaker 2: We have the post on a site you need.
Speaker 1: To, but I'm not gonna be able to watch it
twice before I do the post. That's my point. There's
so much in it. There's so much I wish I
could have unpacked. And I did think in the first
twenty five thirty minutes of the film, I was like,
oh God, this was a mistake. I should not have
picked this one for the movie club because it's ponderous
and slow in a way that might not be right conducive.
But in fact, I think it is a film that
demands discussion, demands that you unpack it, demands that you
come to terms with it. Right, So I should just
say here to the all the bitter kittens out there,
Lorenzo has a very bad caul that he got overnight,
practically the hell, and we're trying to limit how much
he speaks, otherwise he's going to be coughing into a
into a microphone.
Speaker 3: So but I I like when I watch a movie.
I like all kinds of movie. I like movies that
have like a whole story that you know from from
beginning to end. And I also like movies like this one.
I feel that they have moments, you know, you watch
you were to my in my mind, you're just watching moments,
you know, like moments of things.
Speaker 2: Happening, right, which I like.
Speaker 3: But it got to a point that I was like,
all right, I'm enjoying this because there are scenes where
they're talking about things that are making me think, But
I don't see the overall point of the whole thing.
You know, I didn't feel interesting for a long time, okay,
and then it got better. Then I finally got the point.
But but it was just like, all right, where are
we going with this?
Speaker 1: Yere No, I had that failing to and we both
said at various times, this film is trying to do
way too much. But I don't think that's actually the
case by the time you get to the end of it,
about halfway through the film, because I was like, all right,
we're referencing the Iraq War, we're referencing climate change, we're
referencing capitalism, we're referencing you know, megachurches. Like there was
so much, and I thought, I don't I feel like
this is sort of scatterbrain. And you know, director screenwriter
Paul Schrader is I don't know his exact age, but
he's a contemporary of Scorsese. He's roughly around eighty. He
would probably have been around seventy when he wrote this
film and directed this film. So there was a part
of me that thought, well, this is just an old
man coming to terms with the modern world, and there's
a certain sense of despair in the film, and I
thought that's what it was. I thought that it was
an older direct unpacking life in the twenty first century
in America. Because you know, a couple of times I
was looking at this film and trying to place it.
I'm like, all right, twenty seventeen. It was the first
year of the first Trump administration. I don't know how
much of this film was written. I don't know when
he wrote some of this stuff, but it felt very
twenty twenty six to me. It felt very much of
this moment rather than twenty seventeen. And part of me
was like, Wow, he really predicted where America was going,
because you know, there's an underlying discussion not just about
climate change, but about capitalism and about corporate corruption and
about essentially how corporations are literally buying religion in order
to you know, market themselves.
Speaker 3: I think the main point of the whole movie it's despair.
I think it's how people are. Yeah, it gets to
a point where people are just they can't take it
anymore and they have no hope anymore. And I feel
very much that's the kind of the point here of
faith and despair, you know, like sort of like.
Speaker 1: I think there is yeah, at tension, there a conversation
there in fact that you see it in the conversation.
It was actually a fascinating scene to watch between Ethan
Hawk's Reverend Toller and Amanda Seifried's husband Philip Edinger, I
think is the name of the actor, when he's counseling him,
and the man is the is clearly clearly depressed, beyond depressed,
and this Reverend Ethan Hawk is trying to counsel him,
and you can see how ineffective his responses to this
guy are. And not only that, but will you come
away from that conversation back the rest of the film
realizing that that conversation went in the opposite direction exactly.
The reverend did not influence that man. That man wound
up influencing the reverence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which, yeah, yeah, that's another interesting part.
Speaker 1: I thought their conversation theologically was very interesting, and there
were times where I thought Ethan Hawk's character was making
very very good points, and I was thinking, oh, so
he's actually good at his job. He's decent at his
job as a preacher. But then I don't know. I
halfway through that scene, I was like, is he making
good arguments or does it just sound like religiosity. It's
like the things you're supposed to say during these moments.
I do want to address your point, though, that this
film is a film about despair and I I'm in
the process of writing the posts that this podcast will
be attached to, but I actually wrote that line and then,
pardon me, struck it out or deleted it from the
post because I kept strtruggling with is this really a
film about one thing? Or are we supposed to just
here's something I want to say. It comes down to
for me, that final scene. The entire film comes down
to the final scene, and it comes down to what
you think is actually happening in that final scene. I'm
going to give you a quote from the director, Paul
Schrader that he gave to Indie Weier in twenty eighteen.
It was an interview about the film, and he's when
asked about the ending, I don't know what the ending is.
It can be read in either one of two ways.
One that a miracle has occurred and his life is spared.
The other is equally in my sense, optimistic, which is
that he drinks the draino and he's on all fours,
he's throwing up his stomach, and God comes over to him,
who has not talked to him for the whole movie,
and says, Reverend told her, you want to know what
heaven looks like. Here it is. This is exactly what
it looks like. It looks like one long kiss. And
that's the last thing he sees. M Okay.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: So I think Schrader's trying to have it both ways here, huh,
because I don't think the ending is all that ambiguous,
to be quite honest. Yes, it's possible you could read
it that, Amanda saiv reads. Mary comes in at the
last second before he drinks the draino and saves his life,
and he runs into his arms and they kiss dramatically
and he achieves grace. That doesn't seem likely given the
film that we just watched. Putting aside the fact that
and as Schrader points out, the lighting in the scene changes.
The door was locked, so there was no way for
Mary to get in there. He's covered in barbed wire
and bleeding out, but they're hugging and kissing and as
if he's not. And I thought it was fairly obvious
that all of that was not happening as we were
seeing it, that he was actually dying and this was
the end of the movie.
Speaker 2: Probably. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think Schrader feels that way too. I think Schrader
feels that that the ending is that he dies, that
he completes his suicide and he dies, it's not that
he is rescued by her. But I did think it
was interesting how when you unpack that quote of of
of Schrader, like he stacks the deck. He says, you
can read it either one or two ways, and he
describes it one way in a very flippant, one off sentence,
and then he describes it in the other way, in
this long sentence that very very detailed, and like, Okay,
well this is clearly what you thought this scene was.
But you're leaving it open to interpretation, and that's fine.
But I do think it's interesting because I think he
does allow for grace and hope in that final moment,
and he implies that Mary, that vision of Mary. And
let me just say, the two women in the film
are named Mary and Esther. It's very interesting that he
chose these extremely biblical names, one from the Old Testament
and one from the.
Speaker 2: New Oh wow, yeah, I didn't know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Mary, who is a mother figure, she's pregnant.
She shows up as this you know, she's God in
that moment. She is God offering him grace in that
moment and pulling him to the other side gracefully, which
in that sense that's a very uplifting sort of how
do you feel?
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I was conflicted. But first of all, the
kiss went on forever, and I was like, all.
Speaker 1: Right, it didn't seem realistic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, this is not real. I mean,
it's going on forever. Where are we going with this?
And then the movie ends.
Speaker 1: Because he died.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because clearly.
Speaker 3: He's I don't know, delirious there, and you know he
died obviously, right, It's interesting that how things switched because
he saw her present there, you know.
Speaker 2: The whole are we going to talk about the bomb
thing and all the why.
Speaker 1: Don't we wait until after the break?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's also that that kind of shocked me
a little.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, all right, why don't we take a short break
and we'll come back to what he was planning to
do and whether or not why he stopped doing it.
Let's we'll be right back. We're back talking about First Reformed.
I do want to take a moment and note that
the performances are fantastic in this film, very subtle, very layered.
Ethan Hawk really is a fantastic He's a very good actor,
and one of the things that he's very, very very
good at is that sort of middle aged, broken down
despair kind of thing. He's very very good at giving
that life and nuance. Similarly, Amanda Sifried, who I think
is great. She's just a great actress. I think she's
I don't want this to sound dismiss him, because she's beautiful.
She's a beautiful blonde woman. She's a more interesting actress
than she had to be. She could have relied on
her lives a lot, but she is interesting and given
her first movie, like you know, first big movie, what
do you mean mean girls? Yeah, like you know, like
playing this dumb girl right right right, she could have
done a career at dumb blonde. But she's interesting. And
what I liked, what I found about interesting about her
is that her performance is inscrutable. At one point I
turned to you and I was like, I don't trust
this girl. I kind of thought she was leading him
on or and this was back when I thought this,
I was like, oh, so this is like an old
man musing on the world, how confusing the world is,
and he has this this sort of fum fatale. We
don't know what's going on with her, And I do
think part of that was deliberate. Like the film does
have a feeling through a good portion of it. It
feels like a horror film. The way that it's shot.
There's like this low rumble on the soundtrack and everything.
There is this sense of it being very, very ominous
throughout the entire film, and I again, I think all
of this was delibered on Schrader's part. It's sort of
a a misdirect. You think it's you're wondering whether this
woman is reliable, You're wondering whether he's getting pulled into
something that might be, But it's really just all about
his mind and where his thoughts were. It was really
about ideas and how people are relating to the world.
There was no major plot, there was no there.
Speaker 2: Was no twist.
Speaker 1: He was just a man full of despair. And we
should also mention we haven't brought this up. He's dying, right.
I mean that despair is it's not just about the
state of the world. In fact, that's something I want
to point out here is that again this was a misdirect.
It's not a film about climate change. It's not a
film about big relie a general, megachurches or capitalism. It's
about one guy who's dying, who is loaded with regrets
and who was having a crisis of faith. So in
that sense, it's a very very internal story.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting all the points made in the
movie when he talks to he's to the business speaper business,
you know, like the company and and all that, like
you know how you know, they see things completely different.
Speaker 2: They see religion as just one.
Speaker 1: Way of something else they can buy.
Speaker 3: They can buy and then they can use, you know,
to their advantage. It's it's very interesting. I also like
the husband a lot. That's I think the husband. I
can't I can't stop thinking about the husband. The activists
who Philip ad in Jersey actually he I think his
character is very very interesting because sometimes you don't stop
to think how people think, right, And that was a
moment when I was like, Wow, that's how activist thing,
you know, like that's how the how, that's how their
mind works. Which it's interesting because it's very easy to
just be dismissive.
Speaker 2: About the whole thing. Are you just crazy? Who cares?
You know?
Speaker 1: Just depressed?
Speaker 3: You just depressed, you know, like yeah, so the world
it is what it is, and you know, but it's
interesting to pay respect to someone who thinks that like that.
That was my point there. I mean, I was like,
all right, it's interesting. I really want to tell me
how you think.
Speaker 1: That's why that scene with the tell of them was
actually one of the best scenes in the film is
because it was really well written and engrossing. You were
listening to both sides of this argument.
Speaker 3: And you can see the despair and the disappointment and
lack of hope. You know, from his sport he mentioned
people who have fought so hard, right and died, like
the people in the Amazon region and then somebody else.
Speaker 1: I believe those were all actual really yeah, real activists.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like how we do so much and then
at some point it means nothing, you know, And that's
how he's So that's his despair, right, like his disappointment,
and he doesn't want to have a child. He doesn't
want to bring a child into this kind of where
that he lives in, which is interesting because yeah, it's
very interesting.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 3: I want to make the point that it's very easy
to be dismissive about how people think and you know,
things like that because they don't line up with how
you feel about things, and you think you just roll
your eyes. And at that time, I was like, you know,
I really want to listen to him and see what
he has to say, and here and listen to what
he has to say because it's interesting. Because then when
you stop and think about and pay attention to someone
like that, it's easier to understand them when you when
you when you find out where they're coming from.
Speaker 1: I agree, and I can.
Speaker 3: My point with all this is that I can see
the preacher feeling the same way, like he's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1: Well, that's just the thing I think. You know, there's
this conversation between these two people, and it should be
a conversation about hope versus despair, but they are both
wallowing in their despair. And the reason I mean, I
don't want to see the reason that Michael winds up
killing himself is because the Reverend Toller is simply incapable
of pulling him out of that funk.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The film presents Mary as this figure of hope, because
throughout the film she is, you know, relatively implacable and unruffled.
Even on the day her husband kills himself, she is
still relatively right. That's why I was like, what's wrong
with this chick? What's going on?
Speaker 2: I thought she had plot the whole thing. Yeah, plot
the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Because she wanted to have the child and he didn't,
so kill the outman.
Speaker 1: In the end. I think she's just this figure of grace,
like she is uncomplicated, she has faith and her husband doesn't,
and she I guess I don't let me ask you something,
do you? How do you look at her relationship with
the Reverend. First off, there is that scene where they
which we haven't even touched, where they levitate through space.
And what I loved about that scene what it felt
like a pure David Lynch moment because up until that
point the film is static. It is very controlled, it
is very spare, and it's and it's you know, he
talked about Schrider, talked about some of the influences you know,
other directors that and I know he talked about Bergmann
and Theodore Dreyer, and he talked about Ozu, who you
love well.
Speaker 3: I can see, I can see I can see the
I see I can see Bergerman in dialogue, the way
they spoke.
Speaker 1: Yes, it had that very sort of Scandinavian spaireness to.
Speaker 3: And the some of the scenes where the way they
were shot, I can see.
Speaker 1: Ozu like everything's framed in the center of the frame
in mid distance from you know, and the camera doesn't move,
and so it has a very very spare interior sense
to what OsO films are like that. And then suddenly
there's this moment, this Lynchian moment, where just reality gets
slipped away, and I first I had a split second
like what the what the hell? And then I loved it.
I love that suddenly we were on this metaphysical journey,
whether real or not. And I think that moment helps
to secure the final moment of the film, which also
can be seen as purely fantasy, as something that's not
really happening outside of that man's mind. So I think
it established a motif. But I don't know how much
of that scene actually had. Did she actually lay on
top of him like that?
Speaker 2: I think that whole thing happened.
Speaker 1: I think does she have something for him?
Speaker 2: Is she? I don't know. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 3: Maybe he has some feelings towards her.
Speaker 1: Well, obviously by the end he's making out with her
or he's dreaming that he is.
Speaker 3: But I don't think not not her. I think she's
just very spiritual in a way. Yeah, and she's just
seeking for that that kind of and she's grieving. Yes,
I that's how I felt about the whole thing. I
actually thought of it the way everything, the way the
whole thing was talked about. I just loved when she's
when he's like, do you want me to do this,
and and it's like, yeah, sure, why, yeah you know what, Yeah,
let's do it. I thought it was great. Yeah, it
felt real. Uh that's how you know. I guess people
would talk and it's just it was nice, I thought.
I thought, again, listening, I think I think he just
he was listening to her, giving her something, right, And
that's that's.
Speaker 1: Not it had an effect on him because he still
wounds up killing himself.
Speaker 3: I know. I I guess because he was going to
die anyway.
Speaker 1: I I he was dying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was dying anyway. I So I guess he
felt like he needed to do something. I don't understand
the the so, you know, the whole bomb thing, I
don't understand that, the vest and all that, well, he
wanted to take out right. But to me, corporate guy basically,
I know. But to me that but that came out
of nowhere, out of nowhere to I agree. And it
also I think it speaks to how how much despair
he was feeling and how fucked up his mind was.
Because you know, the church, they establish it several times,
and it's like this very important historical right they called
a tourist church, but you know, the literal underground railroad
runs underneath the church, and they make a point of
trying to you know, and he seems to be somewhat
proud of that fact that he is the steward of
this church. So the idea that he would blow up
this historic church, I was like, he's lost it. I
don't think he's thinking this through. I don't think anything.
I don't think any of that makes any sense. He
was in the throes of despair, dying and having a
christ A fate. Judging by the way he talked to
the activist, the husband and the arguments, the points he made,
it doesn't make sense that he would do that. I
was really surprised.
Speaker 1: Well, I just think he deteriorated over the course of
the film. But as the viewer, you don't get that. No,
that's I mean, I agree. Like I said, it's the
kind of film that I wished I could have sat
and watched a second time before we had this conversation,
because it kind of demands that sort of you know,
once you know where the film winds up, you kind
of want to go back and see how how all
the things were laid out and whether things make more
sense the second time around. But this film will stick
with me.
Speaker 2: I think it's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a fascinating film. I think the
performances are fantastic. I think the direction is so inte
like beyond my pay grade, intelligent, like just like I
really have to work to unpack this film. A really
great film, I really great quiet film that is, and
it's you know, it's it could have been a lot
more depressing than it is. Let me put it that way.
It is not an uplift thing film, but it's not
actually as depressing as it as we're making it sound.
Speaker 2: No, But but I I'm it.
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting to question things. And I think
again back to the conversation with the husband, I thought
that was very interesting h of it because because the
preacher thought he had it, oh in the bag, you know, Oh,
this is easy, I'm just going to talk to him,
and and and all of a sudden the conversation turned uh,
and the activist the husband had very interesting points. Yeah,
he made very interesting points. And I think even the
Preacher realized that. And then they were in a situation
where like, Okay, I wasn't surprised that he killed himself
the the no, I think it was pretty clearly.
Speaker 2: It was clear.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I thought, yeah, which is very sad because
I think in a way, I think preacher made the
made things worse.
Speaker 1: I don't think he was k bull of meeting that moment. Yeah,
he was dying himself. He was racked with guilt over
the death of his own child, which he felt that
he had caused. Oh and then we didn't even get
into like the scene with Esther the choir director, where
he tells her, I despise you and all of that,
and I went two ways with that. I was like, oh,
he's pushing her away because he doesn't want her there
when he blows up the church. But no, I think
that just speaks to how how dark he is and
how how lost he is. He's gone, He's gone at
that point.
Speaker 2: But again, he.
Speaker 3: Made some very interesting points. The reason why he because
he felt that the way she behaved was actually making
him worse mentally, right, which is very It was a
very interesting he put it in a very interesting way,
I thought.
Speaker 1: But he was fucked up because she's only showing concern
for him. I agree if he If your response to
someone showing concern is I despise you, well, you are lost.
You are very very.
Speaker 3: Lost, because concern points out certain things that you sometimes
don't want to hear. That's the point that I'm trying
to that, that's what I'm trying to make. I mean,
she had a very good intention, so like she wanted
to help him, but in his mind, whatever she did
or said was triggering things that he didn't want to acknowledge,
which I thought it was very interesting. He did a
very good job pointing it out to her.
Speaker 2: I think, although you know.
Speaker 1: The relationships and what's going on inside people's heads in
this film is very very complicated and grown up and
you need to unpack it. It's not something that you know,
this is a good person and this is a bad person.
It's you know, it's all people.
Speaker 3: There are some so some very clever interesting conversation, like
when when they're talking about whatever they had that was brief, brief,
and then he says, she says, do you think what
we did was the sin? And it's like, no, I've
seen real sin. That wasn't that. That wasn't it. Which
I thought it was very interesting because he's aware of things.
He's completely aware of things.
Speaker 1: So my question to the kittens listening is, I have
several questions. Do you think this is a film about
hope or do you think it's a film about despair?
Do you think it's about faith? Do you think the
reverence act at the end was an act of faith
in you know, believing that God was going to come
and lead him to salvation. Do you think Mary was
a dark figure or a savior? There's just a lot
there to unpack. Do you think this film had anything
to say about climate change, anything to say about a
big religion, anything to say about corporate control, because personally,
I don't I don't think it had much to say
about any of those things they were dressing for a
basic question of hope versus despair and whether faith has
a role in navigating that.
Speaker 3: I also think the way he wanted to die, I
mean like a cremated and whatever and then had its
spirit spread all over the do you mean the husband
the hutband, I thought that was it. I mean, clearly
they were talking about the climate there that the kids
were singing some weird song about Yeah, it was fired anyway.
So yeah, it's an interesting movie and it makes you
think about all these things that goes on in your
head sometimes and you're you're not aware.
Speaker 2: Of great Like I said.
Speaker 1: I I would love to hear your answer to any
of those questions. And we'll be back next week to
talk about The Bride, which we have also never seen,
but I don't think it'll be quite as downbeat as
this one. Uh So, until then, take care of ussel
I love you mean it.
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye