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Speaker 1: We weren't gonna talk, so I kind of had a

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different idea of what we're going to talk about this segment.

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But then I realized something. So you had mentioned, Jenny,

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there's new information regarding this lawsuit Salt and Pepa versus

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UMG Universal Music Group, And oh, I just got a

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text message. By the way, Oh the stiff Tones are here.

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Speaker 2: I show.

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Speaker 1: Our our three guests has arrived, so Jenny's going to

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go let them in. But yeah, Universal disputes Salt and

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Pepa's termination rights claim says the rappers never transferred any

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recording rights to their label. The reason I decided I

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wanted to pivot to this story is because UMG Universal

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Music Group seems to come up a lot on the show,

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because it seems like Universal Music Group is constantly either

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being sued or countersuing somebody. I remember months ago we

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talked about the Olympiscuit lawsuit against UMG. There's always something

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with UMG. Always seems to be something sketchy going on. Obviously,

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the point of view that we come from with this

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show is we always will advocate and support artists and

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the rights of artists, and it is not an unusual

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or rare tale to hear about artists getting screwed over

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in the music industry, and very often it happens at

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the hands of these big labels and Universal Music Group.

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If you are gauging this based on the number of

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lawsuits involving UMG, they might be the number one offenders

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in terms of screwing over the artists that they represent. Now,

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I understand there's two sides to every story, or maybe three.

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You know, they say this three sides yours mind and

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the truth, and these things are not always as simple

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as they might appear. But again, you know, on this show,

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we have a specific point of view. This is a

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very independent, artist centric radio show, so we have a

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point of view that we will always defend and stick

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up for artists and advocate for artists. And Universal Music

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Group certainly doesn't need our help and support. So so

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this is this is an update. This just happened. This

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just went up on well this this actually went up

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on a number of places Billboard, dot com and various sites.

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But this just went up yesterday, so it says here.

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Earlier this year, Assault and PEPA sued UMG, claiming that

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the major label was refusing to allow them to reclaim

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the rights to their nineteen eighties recordings. Even though copyright

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law allows them to terminate any transfer of rights after

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thirty five years, the major now says there was never

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any transfer of rights to terminate. So this gets into

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the weeds a little bit. But because again sometimes artists,

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major artists, this happens, I mean, it can happen with

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any artists at any level. But you know, and again

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people outside the industry might not know this. But you know,

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just because you music and put music out, release music,

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doesn't mean you own the rights to it. And there's

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you know, there's publishing rights, and there's your masters, your

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master recordings, and various things. And depending on what kind

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of a contract you have, your your label might own

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the rights to your publishing. They might own the rights

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to your masters. Sometimes artists will go and you know,

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Taylor Swift, as a means of reclaiming the rights to

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her material, actually went and re recorded everything. And now,

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who was somebody just bought back their whole catalog. I

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thought that was her.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was Taylor Swift that bought back their

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whole catalgy.

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Speaker 1: I think she was. She did something where but it

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involved her re recording oh for her music. Yeah, so

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that way she doesn't need the original masters. She just

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re recorded everything. Def Leppard did something similar like I

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don't know ten fifteen years ago, but that had something

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to do with iTunes and that was a complicated thing.

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But so this is what it says here. This is

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the update. Universal Music has asked a US court to

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dismiss the termination rights lawsuit filed against it by rap

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duo Salt and Pepa. The Major says that while US

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copyright law allows creators to terminate a transfer of rights

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or grant of rights after thirty five years, Salt and

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Peppa never actually granted any rights in their nineteen eighties

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record deals, which means there's nothing to terminate now. The

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relevant agreements under which Salt and Peppa's recordings were created

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quote contain no grant of copyright rights unquote from the rappers.

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A new legal filing from The Major claims a producer

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the duo worked with did grant some rights in one arrangement.

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I'm sorry, in one agreement, but neither Salt nor Pepa

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were directly involved in that part of the deal and

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a grant of rights. Universal adds, as quote a fundamental

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requirement of the copyright ex termination provisions unquote. That fact,

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it says, was confirmed in a previous termination rights legal

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battle involving Universal, in which the litigious artists were represented

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by the same lawyers as Salt and Peppa. Those attorneys

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may now have quote chosen to ignore that decision unquote,

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it says, but there is still quote no basis for

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any different result here. Quote. Unsurprisingly, Salt and Peppa an

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are not impressed with Universal's arguments, a spokesperson told Billboard.

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Quote the Copyright Act was designed to give artists a

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chance to reclaim ownership of their work, which is precisely

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what Salt and Peppa have been attempting to do, and

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UMG continues to resist unquote the major's arguments UMG, the

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spokesperson added, quote are just what we expected, an effort

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to avoid addressing the core issues facing Salt and Peppa

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and so many other artists in these circumstances. But we

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remain confident that the facts and the law are on

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our side. Unquote. Salt and Peppa real names Cheryl James

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and Sandra Denton sued Universe in May after it knocked

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back the duo's efforts to reclaim ownership of their nineteen

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eighties albums by exercising the termination right. At the time,

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they said that the major was employing heavy handed tactics

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which might work on lesser known artists, but Salt and

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Pepa quote would not tolerate any disrespect from UMG unquote.

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It is true there are some complications relating to the

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termination right under US law, which in music apply more

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on the recording side than with publishing contracts. If an

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artist is employed. Okay, now this gets into the weeds,

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but this is important in order for us to understand

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what's happening here. So if an artist is employed by

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a label on a work for higher basis, then the

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label owns the copyright in the recordings by default, so

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there is no transfer of rights. And by the way,

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so that's no different than any employer that you work

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for or if you're freelancing, but you know, you sign

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some sort of contract that might say this your work

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product for that employer, you don't own it. Your employer

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owns it. So in theory, anything that you create, develop,

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et cetera for that employer like you, you don't get

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to take that with you. If it's some sort of

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creative work that's owned by your employer. You created it

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under their direction, and you know, we can have arguments

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about whether that's fair or not, or whether it depends

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on the situation, which it probably does, whether it's fair

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or not, et cetera. But but that's basically it's it's

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no different than that. So if you're employed by a

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label doing whatever, you're a recording artist, or you're a producer,

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or you're you work in a and R or I

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don't even know what jobs exist at at these labels

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anymore because everything's changed so much. But but uh, I mean,

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I did some work for Artemis Records, but that was

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a long time ago, so everything's different now. But anyway,

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but the point being, you know that that label is

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most likely going to you own whatever you create for

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that label. Okay, so things again, going back to the article,

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things also get complicated where artists do deals with producers

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and then producers do deals with labels. So you're the artist,

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you have a deal with your producer, and your deal

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with your producer is your deal, but they've got another deal.

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And again, this happens. This doesn't just happen in the

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music industry. This can happen in any industry, any type

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of business situation. You've got to deal with somebody and

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that's your deal with that entity. But that entity also

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they have their own deal with somebody that might affect

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your deal in ways that you don't know because you

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don't know about the other deal and you can't anticipate

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how that's going to affect you.

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Speaker 2: And this is all confusing to you. What is it

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like for the artists?

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Speaker 1: You know what it reminds me of. It reminds me

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of like when I was a kid, if like I

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had a friend, and this is probably something that's happened

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to people. I think people will find this example where

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but I remember this happening to me once, Like like

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a friend borrows a dollar from me because so they

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can get something like a milk with their lunch or something.

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Right Like when I'm a kid that borrows a dollar

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from me, and then they tell me they're gonna pay

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me back. But then when I go to collect, when

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they say, oh, yeah, i'll pay you back tomorrow, and

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then I go to them tomorrow and they say, oh yeah,

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I don't owe you that because somebody else borrowed a

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dollar from me so now they owe you that dollar,

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you know what I mean? Yes, like I'm not paying

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you back. No, no, you have to go get the

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dollar from this other person who I loan money to.

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Now they owe you the money, which is such a

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BS way to do things. But you know that type

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of thing would happen. And then, of course, and then

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we don't know what happens next. Right, you go to

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the person and then they say, what why are you

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trying to get a dollar for me? I don't know

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you a dollar? Why Why does your deal with this

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person affect me? And so forth? And you know, anyway,

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Universal argues that these things apply in this case in

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legal It's legal filing runs through the complicated series of

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deals between James and Denton and producer Herbie Azor, between

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the producer and Next Plateau Records, and between Next Plateau

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Records and London Records, which is now part of Universal. See,

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these things get very, very very complicated by the way.

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This is an example too, because things get so complicated.

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Remember when Limp Biscuits sued and that's ongoing. I believe

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their lawsuit against UMG the I forget her name now

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her actual name, but her YouTube channel is top music attorney,

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and she talks about all this stuff, and I'm sure

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she has stuff on her YouTube channel. I haven't looked

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at it recently. I'm sure she has stuff on her

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YouTube channel about this. She's an entertainment lawyer with a

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very successful YouTube channel. And she says that UMG does

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something that is often referred to as spaghetti accounting, where

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the accounting becomes so complicated that you can't even audit

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it because it's so and it's and it's by design,

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it's it's this is done intentionally so that the label

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doesn't have to pay you anything because they say, no,

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we don't owe you anything. Uh we we still you know,

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there's still recruitment. You haven't your project, your album, whatever,

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hasn't made enough money, hasn't generated enough revenue, so we

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don't owe you anything because you haven't your your recruitment

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has not yet been fulfilled. And then you say, okay, well,

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our lawyers are going to audit our account and then

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it's very difficult to do that because everything's a mess anyway,

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but it's but it's an intentional mess.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the things that's in the Janees addiction

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lawsuit is that there was money fronted to them for

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the tour ah and now they got to give it

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or for the album. The promised an album going to happen,

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So now all that money has to be given that yep, yeah, yeah,

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So her name is Miss Crystal with a King.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Miss Crystal, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the number one music business school for artists. I

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never knew this existed.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, Miss Crystal. She has a lot of

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great content. Again, it's kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's online classes and everything. We should get her on

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if we can.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, I'd love to

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have her on. Yeah. And she's again if you really

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want to get into the weeds with this stuff, she's

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a Her YouTube channel is great and she explains things

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in a way that, you know, someone like me, I'm

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not an attorney. I have no legal training of any kind.

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But she explains it in a way that it goes

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very in depth, so I can I can understand because

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I'm you know, I like that kind of stuff. I'm

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obviously very interested in it, but without it getting so

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far advanced with legal lees that I can't comprehend it,

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you know what I mean exactly? So that's why I

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recommend her if you're interested in this kind of thing,

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you know, obviously, I mean I never had any interest

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in becoming an attorney, but if I had gotten to

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law school, my goal probably would have been to deal

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with contract law, and I'd probably would be an entertainment lawyer.

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And I find trademark law very interesting, and anything to

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do with copyrights and oh yeah, intellectual property, all of

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that's fascinating to me. So that's probably the kind of

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law had I taken that path, that I would be practicing.

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But yeah, so I do recommend her YouTube channel top

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Music Attorney on. Yeah, it's pretty in depth, and I'm

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sure she has stuff about this lawsuit on there. A

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little bit more to this, it says, again, this is

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from the article. The whole dispute pretty much swings on

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one line in a nineteen eighty six agreement between James

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and Denton and Azor's business, which says that his production

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company quote shall be the sole and exclusive owner of

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any and all rights, title, and or interest in and

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to the master recordings recorded here under, including but not

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limited to the worldwide sound copyrights there and and the

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renewal rights thereof unquote.

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Speaker 2: I think we should pass a law that says everything

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has to be written in English.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's that's that's clear if you break it down,

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I mean basically, I mean I can well, yeah, but

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I can. But we can sum that up right. In

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other words, Azor's business owns everything, and that's what that

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That's what that line says, that owns everything.

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Speaker 2: That you are their slave, isn't that That's why Prince

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wrote slave across his cheek when he was fighting.

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Speaker 1: With his record. And that's exactly the kind of thing

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that if you have a really good entertainment lawyer and

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and you're presented with a contract like that, your entertainment

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lawyer is going to say to you, I don't think

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you should sign this. So it says here. The question

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is was that a simple statement of fact confirming Universal's

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view that Azor's company was the default owner of the

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sound recording copyrights created under the deal, or was it,

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in fact a transfer of copyrights from the rappers to

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the producer. Universal argues that other terms in the same

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deal relating to other rights such as name and likeness rights,

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include explicit language regarding the transfer of rights. The fact

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that explicit language isn't that crucial isn't in that crucial

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term about the recording rights, means no transfer took place.

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It adds, we will see how the court now deals

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with these arguments. If the judge does ultimately rule against Universal,

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it has a second argument already lined up that some

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of the key recordings under dispute are remixes. See that

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gets complicated, and the termination right doesn't apply to so

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called derivative works, so anything they.

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Speaker 2: Can do to rip off the artists.

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Speaker 1: So even if James and Denton had transferred rights back

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in the nineteen eighties, the termination right still wouldn't apply

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to remixes organized by their labels while those labels were

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in control of the main copyright. The second argument may

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or may not be relevant in this dispute, but it

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could nevertheless be a cause of concern for other artists

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in those genres where remixes are common and who are

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looking to exercise the termination right, especially where it's a

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remix that proved to be the biggest hit.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm, that's our I didn't even think about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. It gets It gets very complicated.

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It gets very complicated.