1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,839 Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000 an idea. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,439 Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through. 4 00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,120 I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, 6 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:24,320 not because I put my hand on a book and 7 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:28,839 made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:30,199 Speaker 3: Take the risk of thinking. 9 00:00:30,239 --> 00:00:33,759 Speaker 2: Feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom will come 10 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:34,719 to you that way. 11 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: Before I play you the presentation that I just gave 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,200 in Poix, Arizona at Secular Day at the Capitol, I 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,959 had some thoughts related to this, specific to a guy 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,280 named Lee Greenwood. Now, if you don't know who Lee is, 17 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:15,319 he is a Grammy Award winning country artist. He's been 18 00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:18,519 around for decades and he is best known for a 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,280 song called God Bless the USA. And this is exactly 20 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:26,400 the kind of song you would think it is. I 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,799 saw it performed by another artist in Tulsa. This was 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:36,599 in nineteen eighty nine maybe, and he was dressed like 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,480 Uncle Sam. I mean, he had the stars and the 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,680 stripes and the great big hat. There were actual cannons, 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,400 I mean not real cannons, but there were confetti cannons 26 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,840 that we must have been four or five feet tall 27 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:55,400 or long, blowing confetti out into the audience. And he's 28 00:01:55,799 --> 00:01:59,640 singing a song, and everybody's got goosebumps. Well, I'm proud 29 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:06,640 to be an American where at least done. No, I'm free. 30 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,439 That's how the song goes. And I won't forget the 31 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:16,039 men who died who gave that right to me, And 32 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:24,599 I proudly stand up next to you and defender still today. 33 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,360 I'm just doing this so you got to get the vibe. 34 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:33,879 And there ain't no doubt. I love this land. God 35 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,639 bless the you. 36 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: S A. 37 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,039 Speaker 3: This is the song. And I'm telling you, everywhere this 38 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:49,240 song gets performed, especially in the American heartland, people go crazy. 39 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,280 It just brings down the house. And for that reason, 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,960 Lee Greenwood has a very special place in the hearts 41 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:04,719 of American hashtag patriots. Well, Lee Greenwood just announced recently 42 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:10,080 that he was teaming up with Oklahoma Superintendent of Public Instruction, 43 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,759 Christian nationalist and Pain in My Ass Ryan Walters to 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,240 put bibles in Oklahoma classrooms. Now, remember that the Lee 45 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,120 Greenwood Bible he teamed up with Trump for the God 46 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:31,439 Bless the USA Bible available on Lee Greenwood's website, easy 47 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,680 to read, large print, slim design. This Bible invites you 48 00:03:35,759 --> 00:03:40,759 to explore God's word anywhere. It's a King James Bible, 49 00:03:41,159 --> 00:03:45,319 and it will only set you back fifty nine dollars 50 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,360 and ninety nine cents? 51 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: Are you shitting me? Sixty bucks? I mean, how many? 52 00:03:55,159 --> 00:03:55,479 Hang on? 53 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,599 Speaker 3: Hang on? This say, is inexpensive bible the United States. 54 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:07,199 Let's just look online. It's you can get at Tyndallhouse 55 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:16,160 Publishers a Bible for thirteen ninety nine, and I know 56 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,600 that's probably high. You can probably get some other one's 57 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,519 pocket bibles for under ten dollars. And of course there's 58 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,199 a bunch of Bible websites, the entire Christian Bible right there, 59 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:32,839 including various translations and concordance material, reference material links, so 60 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,519 many resources totally free. But no, no, you want the 61 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:43,240 Lee Greenwood King James Bible fifty nine ninety nine. Oh yeah, anyway, 62 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,040 Lee Greenwood and his ILK are aligned with perceptions in 63 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:53,079 this country about what patriotism is and that we are 64 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,600 one nation under God and all of that kind of stuff. 65 00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:59,120 And I remember when I was younger, I had that. 66 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:05,720 I felt that swell of pride, proud to be an 67 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,720 American where at least I know I'm free. As if 68 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,319 other nations in the world weren't just as free or 69 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,800 maybe even freer than we were. Well, there's something special 70 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,480 about our freedom. We have an asterisk connect to our 71 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:23,639 freedom because it's American freedom, and that's the best kind 72 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,279 of freedom. I had no idea what in the actual 73 00:05:26,399 --> 00:05:30,199 hell I was talking about. And we know I saw 74 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,360 the flag, I would stand up hand over heart. I 75 00:05:33,439 --> 00:05:38,600 felt a reverence about it all. And that has gone away, 76 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:42,040 and not just because of the political climate that we 77 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,240 are in. And I was talking to David Niosi, who 78 00:05:46,879 --> 00:05:49,519 used to be with the American Humanist Association. We had 79 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,399 an interview I think twelve years ago, and I still 80 00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:56,439 remember because I was asking him, how do you feel 81 00:05:56,439 --> 00:06:03,480 about the pledge to pledge allegiance to a flag, to 82 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,360 say I am going to be allegiant or loyal to 83 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:10,360 the United States, and to teach children to do this 84 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:13,480 with a kind of road to recitation where we don't 85 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:17,360 teach them what allegiance means we don't define allegiance. Have 86 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,000 you ever seen somebody sit down with a young child 87 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,839 before they say the pledge and say, here's what you 88 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:26,759 are pledging. Allegiance is defined in this way and here 89 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,079 are the parameters, or you need to decide what those 90 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,160 parameters are and how far you would take an allegiance 91 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:37,120 if your country did this, this, this, or this right. 92 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,360 How many times throughout our history have people who were 93 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:46,480 great patriots criticized, harshly criticized, and stood against the governments 94 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:49,480 of their countries. I mean, we talk about the civil 95 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,079 rights movements and Vietnam War protesters, and women's equality movements 96 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,399 and so many other human rights endeavors. As people said, 97 00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:01,839 this is bullshit, my country is totally in the wrong, 98 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:05,240 and for that they were called the betrayers of their country, 99 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:09,160 traitors to the United States. And I just came to 100 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,360 the point where I thought, I don't like the idea 101 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:17,800 of a blind rote recitation and affirmation of allegiance to 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:24,600 a country. My allegiance needs to be to goodness, humanity, 103 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:31,480 the truth, justice, kindness, my values, and if my country 104 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,120 is screwing up, I'm not going to be allegiant to 105 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:40,879 that right I totally lost the goosebump factor. I lost 106 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,000 that sense of exceptionalism, and you know, it opened up 107 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,560 my whole world because then I saw myself more as 108 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,319 a citizen of the world. And now when I'm in 109 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,000 a meeting, you know, I've been to council meetings. I'm 110 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,279 an activist who's gone to school board functions and done 111 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,680 other stuff, been to government meetings. All Like I pledge 112 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,079 allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. 113 00:08:06,199 --> 00:08:10,920 It all feels kind of culty. It feels like an 114 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,920 obedience verse out of the Bible. You know, line up, lockstep, salute, 115 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:22,519 handover hearts, do American things, say America things, or you're 116 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,439 a traitor to America. Feels really religious and culty in 117 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:33,480 that way. I differentiate between patriotism and nationalism as you 118 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:37,799 probably do. I love my country, I don't really love 119 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,399 it more than any other free nation in the world. 120 00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:44,080 I'm not infatuated with the red, white, and blue. I 121 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,480 used to buy into that a lot more, but these days, 122 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:50,480 I'm like, I'm a citizen of the world. Borders were 123 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:56,240 drawn subjectively by people with their unique agendas, but they 124 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:00,600 were just people, and those are just lines. They are 125 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:07,679 often unnecessary lines. You know, we're occupants of the planet. 126 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,240 Imagine what we might accomplish if we just saw each 127 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:17,639 other as citizens of earth. I've totally changed. Does that 128 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,240 mean I've turned into a hippie liberal? Maybe that maybe 129 00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:24,559 I don't have the hippie look, but me, I would 130 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,559 be called that by the handover heart saluting red, white, 131 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,960 and blue star spangled American. They would look at me and. 132 00:09:32,919 --> 00:09:33,759 Speaker 2: Go, what do you mean? 133 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:39,159 Speaker 3: We're all equal on this world. America first right, and 134 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,399 often what they do to support or excuse that is 135 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:49,600 really a divine right. Their God made us number one. 136 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:55,039 Their God informed the founding. Their God practically wrote the 137 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:00,799 Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution, guiding the 138 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:06,080 hand of the signatories right there on that historic day. 139 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:10,679 God gave us all that is good. And anybody who 140 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,039 doesn't align with our God is now a trader. They're 141 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:21,080 not true Americans, their second class, they're pretenders, or they 142 00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:25,519 are treasonous in our eyes. Well, I wanted to tackle 143 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,080 in kind of a consolidated way, the idea that Thomas Jefferson, 144 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,759 James Madison, John Adams, George Washington, etc. Intended a Christian nation. 145 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:39,200 So I've kind of put all this together. There is 146 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:43,440 a video version of this speech without my monologue here, 147 00:10:44,159 --> 00:10:46,559 and so you can watch it and then you can 148 00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:50,240 pass it on if there's somebody in your circle who 149 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,559 insists that we are one nation under God. I know 150 00:10:53,639 --> 00:10:55,919 that you already know a lot of this information, but 151 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,639 it's difficult sometimes to find it consolidated down in a 152 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,840 short enough format where people can digest it quickly. And 153 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:08,039 that's the utility of this. It was an outdoor speech 154 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,159 in thirty mile an hour gusts. We had to hang 155 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,759 on to our hats, to our food. We had to 156 00:11:14,759 --> 00:11:17,759 take the fabric off of the tops of the tents 157 00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:22,000 and anchor the tent stakes down with concrete blocks. It 158 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,759 was crazy. So you're going to hear the wind even 159 00:11:25,879 --> 00:11:30,279 through the windscreen of my microphone, which was doing the 160 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,120 best it could as I was pretty much shouting to 161 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,960 be heard over the gusts. But the content is still 162 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:41,879 solid and I think the speech will still hopefully serve 163 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:47,039 you in your discussions out there. Now, so I don't 164 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,840 have to take a break or interrupt the twenty five 165 00:11:49,879 --> 00:11:53,240 minute presentation, I'll take my short break right here and 166 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,919 be right back to talk about Thomas Jefferson's Jesus. 167 00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. 168 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,519 Speaker 3: This is a presentation that I gave outdoors in high 169 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,200 winds a few one hundred yards from the front of 170 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:20,840 the Arizona State Capital for Secular Day at the Capitol 171 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,039 sponsored by Secular a Z. The title of my presentation 172 00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:37,519 Jefferson's Jesus. Huge thanks up to Secular a Z. And 173 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,799 thanks for welcoming me. Thanks for a great event we 174 00:12:40,879 --> 00:12:43,679 had last night. Secular is one of those words we hear, 175 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,919 we use it all the time, we don't often define it, 176 00:12:47,759 --> 00:12:50,519 and many might be surprised to discover that. 177 00:12:50,639 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: Throughout American history, from. 178 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: Our founding to the Civil War, to the civil rights 179 00:12:57,159 --> 00:13:02,200 movement of the sixties to today, religious people and non 180 00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:05,799 religious people have joined together to say that while religious 181 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,960 belief and non belief is a protected and personal right, 182 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:15,559 our government is not a church. Secular means we choose 183 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,799 science over the supernatural. Health care decisions should not be 184 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:24,879 constrained by religious assumption. Women have the right to make 185 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,759 decisions about their own bodies. Schools should be education first, 186 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,720 not ideology first. 187 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: The United States. 188 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: Cannot discriminate based on race, national origin, religion, or no religion. 189 00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 2: Sexuality. 190 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: Tax exempt churches should have to stand by the same 191 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,559 rules and abide by the same regulations as all other nonprofits. 192 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,200 And that while the religious have every right to be religious, 193 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,840 they are not a party of power and they're not 194 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,960 better Americans. I am allies with people like Amanda Tyler 195 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,159 at the Baptist Joint Committee. She is founder of Christians 196 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Against Christian Nationalism. She and I disagree on theology, but 197 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:19,320 we share values. I stand alongside Rachel Lazard of Americans 198 00:14:19,399 --> 00:14:21,639 United for Separation of Church and State. 199 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,799 Speaker 2: She is a practicing Jew. 200 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:29,559 Speaker 3: We disagree on some theology, we share values. I like 201 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,879 the work of pastor John Pavlovitz. We disagree on theology, 202 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,000 we share values. The United States has a church and 203 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:44,200 a state. They are not the same thing. December eighteen 204 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,159 oh one, the United States had been freshly founded, the 205 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,960 American experiment extraordinary, unlike anything that had been attempted before. 206 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,159 Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson was serving. 207 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: As the third President of the the United States of 208 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:04,559 this new nation when he got a letter, a letter 209 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,279 that would become part of our history. 210 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: Now. 211 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,639 Speaker 3: I was raised in a very Christian nationalist culture. My 212 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,440 private Christian schools taught me that the founders were all Christians, 213 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,279 and they wanted a Christian nation with Christian laws supporting 214 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:26,039 Christian things Washington, Madison, Franklin, Jefferson, etc. And so when 215 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,919 they conceived of this American experiment, they were supposedly standing 216 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,720 on scripture inspired by God himself. 217 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:34,759 Speaker 2: It made sense to me. 218 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 3: Everywhere I looked, I saw God on American stuff. In God, 219 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,559 we trust on the money under God, in the pledge 220 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,080 of allegiance, elected presidents taking their oath on a Bible. 221 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,159 Even in our courts of law, witnesses would be sworn 222 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,360 in with so help me God. And of course there 223 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,320 were the songs America, America, God shed His grace on 224 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,799 the I spent fourth grade in a tiny Christian school, 225 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,759 Temple Christian school that welded students' faith with our notions 226 00:16:09,799 --> 00:16:10,600 of the country. 227 00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: Our uniforms were red, white, and blue. 228 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 3: The boys wore little clip on neckties with American flags 229 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,799 plastered all over them. We looked like little patriotic paper 230 00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:27,399 dolls walking the school hallways. And after we stood and 231 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,039 recited our pledge of allegiance, we immediately would segue into 232 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,960 a recitation of a pledge to the Christian flag and 233 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,480 to the Bible, and I can recite those perfectly today 234 00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:40,080 because it's welded. 235 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,799 Speaker 2: Into my brain. 236 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:43,519 Speaker 3: At the age of ten, I was already being tooled 237 00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:49,159 up to grow up and restore America's godly glory. I 238 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,279 remember whole classrooms of kids singing songs with militarized language. 239 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,679 Onward Christian Soldiers marching onto war. The song talked about 240 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:02,960 doing battle against our foes, the cross of Christ is 241 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:05,160 in front of us one in. 242 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: Hope and doctrine. There was just one problem. 243 00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:14,559 Speaker 3: Almost everything my Christian school taught me about the United States, 244 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,319 the founders the Constitution was wrong. Oh if only my 245 00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:27,000 history teachers had been someone like Thomas Jefferson, which brings 246 00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:29,319 me back to that letter from eighteen oh one. And 247 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,559 you're probably well ahead of me because this is an 248 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,319 educated group, But take the journey. I think it's appropriate 249 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:41,359 given the occasion. In the late eighteenth century state of Connecticut, 250 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,720 the Danbury Baptist Association was not happy. At the time, 251 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:48,960 Connecticut was different than many other states in that it 252 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:54,000 actually supported a state church, the Congregationalists. They were supported 253 00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:58,039 in many ways by taxpayer money. Those who were not 254 00:17:58,279 --> 00:18:04,039 Congregationalists were treated like religious minorities, and in the shadow 255 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:07,400 of this state theism favoring one faith. 256 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,519 Speaker 2: In seventeen ninety, the Danbury. 257 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 3: Baptist Association was formed and they organized to voice their 258 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,759 dissent and push back on majority rule. 259 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 2: And it was an. 260 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,039 Speaker 3: Official letter by the Danberry Baptist that reached the desk 261 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,839 of Thomas Jefferson in December of eighteen oh one. And 262 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,720 that letter included these words, our sentiments are uniformly on 263 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:35,680 the side of religious liberty, That religion is, at all 264 00:18:35,759 --> 00:18:40,720 times and places a matter between God and individuals. That 265 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:44,119 no man ought to suffer in name, person or effects 266 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,920 on account of his religious opinions. And that the legitimate 267 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,200 power of civil government extends no further than to punish 268 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,680 the man who works ill to his neighbor. 269 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 2: And the letter went on. 270 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,759 Speaker 3: To talk about how those who seek after power and 271 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:04,319 gain under the pretense of government and religion would actually 272 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,319 be the enemy of religion, law, and good order. So 273 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,400 the message they had for the president was pretty much threefold. 274 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,880 Congratulations on becoming president. Religion is a private thing, not 275 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,400 a public or a national thing. We are worried that 276 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,200 Connecticut will play favorites and make everybody who was not 277 00:19:24,319 --> 00:19:29,000 a Congregationalist, unequal and less free. 278 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:29,759 Speaker 2: We are a. 279 00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 3: Church that knows Connecticut is not a church. That's what 280 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,440 the Danbury badtists were saying. January first, eighteen oh two. 281 00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:42,880 This response was penned by President Thomas Jefferson, and he 282 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:48,119 is sured that dan Berry group. He took his responsibility seriously, 283 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,599 and he said, yes, religion is a personal and not 284 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,279 a national thing. Quote, believing with you that religion is 285 00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:58,960 a matter which lies solely between man and his God, 286 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,640 that he owned those account to none other for his 287 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:07,279 faith or his worship. That the legislative powers of government 288 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,720 reach actions only in not opinions. I contemplate with sovereign 289 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,920 reverence that act of the whole American people which declared 290 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,519 that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment 291 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:27,880 of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building 292 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,920 a wall of separation between church and state. It's funny 293 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,680 my Christian school never mentioned that Tomas Jefferson, a guy 294 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:43,240 who did admire some aspects of Jesus's teaching as philosophy. 295 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,920 That same Jefferson also took a razor blade and he 296 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000 made his own cut and paced Bible with all the 297 00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:57,839 supernatural stuff cut out, moral lesson state miracles got the 298 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:04,079 acts because Jefferson believed the magic stuff was in the way, 299 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,759 and that Jefferson Bible is on display right now at 300 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:14,680 the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History. Back in seventeen seventy six, 301 00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:18,160 a few months after the writing of the Declaration of Independence, 302 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,720 Jefferson borrowed from the English philosopher John Locke when he 303 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,240 wrote in his notes, neither Pagan, nor Muslim nor Jew 304 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,920 ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the 305 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:34,759 Commonwealth because of his religion. Some of Jefferson's contemporaries were 306 00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:37,279 scandalized because he owned. 307 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: A copy of the Koran. 308 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 3: That little piece of information wasn't in my history books. 309 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:48,279 Historians like to argue about Jefferson's personal beliefs. Was he 310 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:52,240 a follower of Jesus in some way? Many biographers, like 311 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:55,480 Christopher Hitchins believe he was a deist not a theist. 312 00:21:55,559 --> 00:21:58,839 But his personal faith or his lack of faith, made 313 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,279 no difference as to how the Constitution itself was written, 314 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:07,160 how laws were made, and how courts should rule, how 315 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,960 the United States should operate in the face of allies 316 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:16,160 and enemies, religion and government, two separate things. The establishment 317 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,160 clause of the Constitution of the First Amendment is not 318 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:19,720 hard to read. 319 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: It's not hard to understand. 320 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 3: Somehow, history revisionists, people like pseudo historian and Christian nationalists 321 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,119 David Barden, have made whole careers out of selling a 322 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:38,039 false Thomas Jefferson. To establish a state church, they need 323 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,960 the founders to agree with them. These Christian nationalists are 324 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,960 publishing and preaching bogus history. Now I mentioned Barton. David 325 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,759 Barton is a darling of the Christian Church, a Christian nationalist. 326 00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:52,079 Speaker 2: Really. 327 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:55,319 Speaker 3: He was once named by Time magazine one of the 328 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,839 most influential evangelicals in the United States. 329 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: Churches in Christian. 330 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 3: Schools teach his stuff as history today, even though his 331 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,200 degree is from Oral Roberts University. 332 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,319 Speaker 2: Anybody here know who Oral Roberts is. 333 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 3: A faith healer, televangelist, millionaire con artist. He's the guy 334 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,720 who once said he had a vision of a nine 335 00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:21,839 hundred foot tall Jesus who told him to build a hospital, 336 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,799 completely oblivious to the irony of being a faith healer 337 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:34,960 who needed a hospital, and from this evangelical indoctrination center, 338 00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:42,559 a non historian became fundamental Christianity's favorite historian, even though 339 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,960 what he writes is mostly fiction. He's so problematic a 340 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,480 whole lot of Christians want nothing to do with him. 341 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,559 Speaker 2: In twenty twelve, David. 342 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,839 Speaker 3: Bardon released a book titled The Jefferson Lies, exposing the 343 00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:01,720 myths You've always believed about Thomas Jefferson. Ah, those separation 344 00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:06,160 seculars haven't been teaching the real story about Jefferson. He 345 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,519 didn't want a secular government, he wanted a Christian nation. 346 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:10,519 Speaker 2: The problem is. 347 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,319 Speaker 3: David Barton's book was so wrong, so filled with nonsense, 348 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,160 that his own Christian publisher, Thomas Nelson Publishing, the second 349 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,599 biggest publisher of Bibles in this country, pulled his book 350 00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:30,319 from the shelves. Their public statement said they had stopped 351 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,920 publishing it because it found quote, basic truths just were 352 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:36,519 not there. 353 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: We have a word for that, lies lies now. 354 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:47,599 Speaker 3: Thomas Jefferson was no saint. The founders were flawed men. 355 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:48,279 Speaker 2: We know this. 356 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 3: Many of them owned slaves, They barred women from government, 357 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,839 very much a product of their time. They were humans, 358 00:24:56,079 --> 00:25:00,559 not gods, and their histories, their stories are me But 359 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,160 the American. 360 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: Experiment was extraordinary. 361 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: They were building a nation with no king, no state church, 362 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,119 no national dogma, and a wall protecting the church from 363 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,279 the government and the government from the church. In his 364 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,400 book The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine said he believed 365 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:27,279 in God, but quote all national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, 366 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,240 or Turkish, appear to me no other. 367 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:32,519 Speaker 2: Than human inventions. 368 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:37,079 Speaker 3: Set up to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power 369 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,839 and profit. George Washington's personal religious beliefs are still debated, 370 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,440 but even in his speech to a Hebrew congregation in 371 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,759 August of seventeen ninety, he said this all possess a 372 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:57,759 like liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. Benjamin Franklin 373 00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:01,119 was a deist. The reason we know, he said so. 374 00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:05,680 He had been raised strict Calvinist. He'd become skeptical of 375 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,079 the Church, but he would also invoke God or a 376 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:14,200 supreme being in his adult life in sometimes confusing ways. Still, 377 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,319 he saw ethical behavior beyond any single faith, once advising 378 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,680 that people should quote imitate Jesus and Socrates. 379 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Seventeen ninety six, the US wanted to. 380 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 3: Secure commercial shipping rights and protect our ships on the 381 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,799 Mediterranean Sea connected to Tripoli modern day Libya, and those 382 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,160 waters had been plagued for three hundred years by privateers 383 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,359 and pirates operating out of North Africa. We wanted, we 384 00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:49,839 needed guarantees of rights and protections on the seas as 385 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,920 a guarantee to that nation that we would not become 386 00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:59,559 Christian colonizers in Muslim lands. The famous Treaty of Tripoli, 387 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,759 which was signed by John Adams, included these words quote 388 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:07,839 the government of the United States of America is not 389 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:15,160 in any sense founded on the Christian religion. John Adams 390 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:19,119 was a Unitarian. He didn't believe in the Trinity. He 391 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,720 liked a lot about Christianity, but in a seventeen ninety 392 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:26,000 nine letter to his wife, he admitted that his belief 393 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:32,480 quote excludes superstition. Imagine if this information was taught to 394 00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:37,200 every American child and beyond, Imagine if those kids and 395 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,319 their parents understood our secular founding in the backstory behind 396 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,839 so many of the Christian nation defenses out there. The 397 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,240 original motto for the United States not in God we trust, 398 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,480 but e cloribus unum the Latin out of many one 399 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,960 in God we Trust wasn't on our coins until the 400 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,160 time of the Civil War of a century after the founding. 401 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,759 It was added to paper money after a vote of 402 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,359 Congress during the Red Scare of the mid twentieth century. 403 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:13,480 Under God was not part of Francis Bellamy's original pledge 404 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,720 of Allegiance, which was first written not for the government 405 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:20,160 but for a local youth magazine in eighteen ninety two. 406 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:23,960 The words under God added by Congress more than six 407 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,240 decades later. And by the way, Francis Bellamy, the Christian, 408 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,640 was also a socialist. Bellamy didn't think Jesus would be 409 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,960 okay with class systems. He believed Jesus would have everybody 410 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,920 equal in a socialist model. 411 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:46,039 Speaker 2: Teach that at. 412 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,799 Speaker 3: Local schools for Christian supremacists, and see how that goes over. 413 00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: Teach it. 414 00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:53,599 Speaker 3: Teach it to the young, to their parents, to our families, 415 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:57,640 to friends' neighbors, to our elected representatives, to anybody who 416 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,279 will listen. Founders support the right to a personal religion, 417 00:29:04,079 --> 00:29:07,279 but they understood the dangers. 418 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:07,559 Speaker 2: Of a national one. 419 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 3: I imagine if Thomas Jefferson was here today standing in 420 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,759 front of the Arizona State Capitol, if he was watching 421 00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:19,480 yet another shade of the Congregationalists were trying to wield 422 00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:23,200 power and discriminate against other people. If he watched Donald 423 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,079 Trump on the day Trump suggested in December of twenty 424 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,880 twenty two that we might terminate the Constitution. If the 425 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,599 man who rebelled against the King of England was shown 426 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,680 the February nineteenth, twenty twenty five image posted on the 427 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,519 official White House account showing a crowned King Trump with 428 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,279 the caption long Live the King, if he read the 429 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,000 nine hundred pages of Project twenty twenty five, a detailed 430 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,160 roadmap to stripping away the rights of the many and 431 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,599 turning us into Gilead, if he was witnessing the absolute 432 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:06,400 horror on the face of free citizens, including many who 433 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,599 are devoutly religious, and yet understand, along with the rest 434 00:30:10,599 --> 00:30:14,279 of it is that a personal God wouldn't need or 435 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:21,319 want a national church. Jefferson's Jesus often preached a philosophy 436 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:26,039 of humanity, charity, kindness, and that Jesus. 437 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,119 Speaker 2: Drove the money changers out of the temple. 438 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 3: Jeffersons Jesus told rich men to sell their stuff give 439 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:37,200 it to the poor. That Jesus taught compassion to the 440 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,759 least of these. I wonder how both Jefferson and his 441 00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:45,359 secular christ would have seen Donald Trump, be Lon Musk, 442 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:54,480 Jeff Bezos, etc. The Christian nationalist narrative is exclusive by nature, 443 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,640 one group ruling the rest on equal unconstitutional, un American. 444 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:14,920 When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. At this historical moment, 445 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:19,799 the few are trying to steal from the many, to 446 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,720 rewrite yesterday, today, and tomorrow in their favor, to betray 447 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,480 the founders, and to betray we the people. 448 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: And in this moment. 449 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 3: We the people are standing up, speaking out, and pushing 450 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,799 back because resistance is our duty. Thank you so very 451 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:46,799 much for having me today. 452 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a 453 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,240 complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like muggs and 454 00:31:56,319 --> 00:31:59,920 t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheists 455 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:03,720 pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events 456 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:10,920 and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com