1 00:00:10,279 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,359 us as we dive into the deep end of the 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,039 unexplainable and try to. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: Piece together what happened. If you are listening to Locations Unknown, ooh, 5 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:56,560 what's up everybody? 6 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: And welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown, I'm 7 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:02,479 your co host Joey Rodwin. With me, as always is 8 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,040 a guy who started Conformity Gate. Mike vander Bogart. What 9 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,760 is that? That's the Netflix Stranger Thing Secret ninth episode. 10 00:01:09,879 --> 00:01:12,599 Speaker 3: Oh okay, the thing you've been talking about? Yeah, okay, cool. 11 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:13,400 Well I didn't know that. 12 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: For the record, I didn't think it was gonna happen. 13 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:17,519 Speaker 1: But it was fun watching all the people get so 14 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,920 upset that the finale was so bad they created a 15 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,000 thing in their head that there might be a secret 16 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:23,879 better one. 17 00:01:24,519 --> 00:01:24,879 Speaker 2: Did you. 18 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,439 Speaker 3: I saw a news report from New York. All these 19 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,079 people were following someone on TikTok that said there was 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,400 going to be a big New Year's Eve Firicks show 21 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:35,959 on the Brooklyn Bridge. Oh yes, thousands of people showed 22 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,920 up and they're like three two one, all right? 23 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: Edi that ever happened? 24 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,959 Speaker 1: He should have just posted that there's like technical difficulties 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 and it never happened, right, keep it going. 26 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:51,519 Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll cut all that out. 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Not everyone who's like it was because it wasn't that bad, 28 00:01:55,079 --> 00:01:58,000 Like it was eh, but everyone was like, you can't 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,040 end a finale that bad. I was like, have you 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,120 you've seen Game of Thrones or Sopranos. Sopranos was better 31 00:02:04,159 --> 00:02:05,879 than Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is one that 32 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:08,280 they should actually just redo. I guess that final scene 33 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,039 in Sopranos. It's grown on me. When I watched it originally, 34 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:11,879 I was like, that's it. 35 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: It just cut the black Yeah, spoiler alert. 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: Well it's better than having the whole final season just 37 00:02:17,039 --> 00:02:21,680 be awful awful and the best episode you can't see. Yeah, 38 00:02:21,759 --> 00:02:23,960 the best episode the whole season is the battle and 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,319 it looks like you're wearing like five pairs of sunglasses. 40 00:02:26,719 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, not how I would have done it. But okay, anyway, anyway, 41 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,039 where were we formity Gate? This is the Stranger Things episode, 42 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,000 Happy New Year, Every Monny New Year. We are into 43 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,080 twenty twenty six. It's already shaping up to be a 44 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,080 weird one. I think not going to get into any 45 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,639 current events, but a lot has gone on since we 46 00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:46,560 spoke to you last. 47 00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:48,319 Speaker 2: We'll just leave it at that. 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: It's getting weird out there, so we're going to try 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,240 to bring it back down the earth and talk about. 50 00:02:56,439 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: We're going to try and talk. 51 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: Ope it just keeps playing my bad we'll cut all 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,120 this out, but no we won't. We'll bring it back 53 00:03:03,159 --> 00:03:05,719 down the earth and talk about more lighthearted things like 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,080 unexplained disappearances. 55 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's what everyone came here for anyway. 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,599 Speaker 3: So just a few announcements before we finally get going, 57 00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:16,319 if that ever happens. We don't actually have any new 58 00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:17,879 patron shouts, so pretty sad. 59 00:03:18,439 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: Nobody gifted anybody Locations unknown for Christmas or the holidays, well. 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,479 Speaker 3: I mean time, times are a little tough. All people 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,599 are tightening their belts, especially around Christmas. Yeah, that's okay, 62 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,280 buy lots of stuff. Having two little kids, I had 63 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,439 to buy a bunch of toys that they're not going. 64 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: To use in a year. Yep, No, we all donated later. 65 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to call the show, we're going 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,199 to do another voicemail episode at some point here. I 67 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:45,479 think we've got enough of them now. No, we could 68 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:47,360 always have more we could do a two part always 69 00:03:47,439 --> 00:03:50,159 have more, Oh, we could always have more. Yeah, please, 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,280 so you can call two eight three nine three Joe. 71 00:03:54,319 --> 00:03:57,280 My new Year's resolution this year is to not say 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,000 it as much a people listening might not know this 73 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:04,879 because I now edit our episodes. But there was an 74 00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:08,280 episode recently where I said, over four hundred times in the. 75 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,199 Speaker 1: Episode, are you kidding me? It's all going to cut out? 76 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,479 I know that's right, but just leave at least that 77 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:13,719 one in. 78 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 3: Just be thankful that we have the sense to edit now, 79 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,000 because that's a lot of ums. It was is at 80 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:21,560 least three or four minutes of solid ms. We only 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,199 edit things like that. Yeah, we obviously leave in the 82 00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:26,560 rest of the stuff we do, for better or for worse. 83 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,480 We have some other podcasts. I just said, uh, and 84 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,399 I did it again, just kidding with you guys, we 85 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,519 ah did it again. We have new podcasts on the network, 86 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,600 so we have relish I got it right this time, 87 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,079 Hike and Seek Crime Off the Grid? Who runs this 88 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,720 park off the Trails? And there is a new podcast 89 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,720 Joe is diligently working on to get onto the network. 90 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're actually going to record it in our studio. Oh, 91 00:04:52,519 --> 00:04:54,240 you're talking about the one you sent me an email. 92 00:04:54,399 --> 00:04:56,279 Oh yeah, okay, Oh so we have two coming up. 93 00:04:56,319 --> 00:04:59,199 We have two, Yes, we're gonna the other one's piloting pilot. 94 00:04:59,240 --> 00:04:59,879 Speaker 2: See how it goes. 95 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, exciting stuff in that department. If you want to 96 00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:06,560 support us, you can head over to Patreon, YouTube memberships, 97 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,040 premium subscriptions on Apple, and spreaker and buy some stuff 98 00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:13,800 from our store. We really this year, we're going to 99 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,839 get some more products on our Yeah, we have hats, 100 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:20,639 great hat. We have playing cards. Show them the playing cards. 101 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: I'm just going to try and put it on your head. 102 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:24,519 Oh yeah, we do have playing cards. 103 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty cool, awesome, And there's a bunch of other 104 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,439 stuff and we're going to start. I'm thinking we're going 105 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:32,319 to reach out to someone to help design shirts. 106 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: I just realized that I've been trying to like zoom 107 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,199 in here when I literally can just do this. 108 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well that New Year knew me. Yeah. 109 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:42,639 Speaker 3: So yeah, we're going to get someone to help us 110 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,120 with coming up with some cool shirts. Outside of that, 111 00:05:45,639 --> 00:05:47,480 do anything fun over New Year's. 112 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: Joe went to your hometown, like Geneva, the Grand Geneva, 113 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,000 the Old Playboy Club. It's no longer that it's now 114 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,199 a water park for families. 115 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:55,879 Speaker 2: We went there. 116 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: I think they converted that in the eighties, Yes they did. Yeah, yeah, 117 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,360 I've heard stories. Yep, so I don't know. I was 118 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,279 in a water park with a bunch of families. Yeah, 119 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:07,759 it was fun, though times have changed, I know, right, 120 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,079 How about yourself? 121 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: What'd you do? 122 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 3: I fell asleep on my couch on Year's Eve and 123 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,079 barely remember to wake up to see the ball drop. 124 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: So you're like fifty something nine years old, I'm aging 125 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:27,720 in dog years. And with that, all right, everybody, let's 126 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:48,759 gear up and get out to explore locations unknown. February thirteenth, 127 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,600 twenty fourteen, a fifty six year old experienced outdoorsman drives 128 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,079 deep into Arizona's Tanto National Forest for a planned multi 129 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,240 day solo hike. After parking along a quiet highway near 130 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,399 the community of Young, he leaves behind a note describing 131 00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:07,879 his route and steps into some of the most rugged 132 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:11,879 backcountry in the state. Days later, concern begins to grow, 133 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,519 triggering a large scale search across remote canyons and forested 134 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,199 ridge lines. 135 00:07:16,959 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: What happened in the vast wilderness? 136 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,399 Speaker 1: Join us this week as we investigate the mysterious disappearance 137 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:40,879 of Paul Victor Tomaso. So we are going to the 138 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Tanto National Forest, specifically the Bordered Tree Saddle region. This 139 00:07:46,639 --> 00:07:49,519 is in Arizona and it was established in nineteen oh five. 140 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:53,000 It sees roughly five point eight million visitors per year, 141 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,800 so it's no small area of the country. It's just 142 00:07:55,959 --> 00:08:00,839 northeast of Phoenix, so it's it's close enough to a 143 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,000 large populated area. 144 00:08:02,319 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 145 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: So some interesting facts about Olympic National Park. Nope, not Ape, 146 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,839 not Olympic. I'm sorry, that's Tanto my fault. I'm ron Bergundy. 147 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:14,240 I read how it is written. It's one of the 148 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,480 most ecologically diverse national forests in the US. So Tanto 149 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,240 spans the Sonoran Desert lowlands to pine forest near a 150 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,800 gullen rim, meaning you can pass through multiple climate zones 151 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,959 in a single day. Elevation changes are extreme. They go 152 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,759 from roughly thirteen hundred feet to nearly eight thousand feet, 153 00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:35,480 which is why temperatures, vegetation, and wildlife changed so dramatically. 154 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,840 Across the forest contains ancient cliff dwellings, the pueblos and 155 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,240 ruins from the Salado and indigenous cultures. Some dating back 156 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:49,679 over seven hundred years. It is at three million anchors acres. 157 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, I said. 158 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,159 Speaker 1: Anchors Tanto National Forest is one of the largest national 159 00:08:53,159 --> 00:08:55,240 forces in the country and is larger than some of 160 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,919 the US state's park systems. Major reservoirs within its boundaries 161 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,279 so Reosevelt Lake, Apache Lake, and Canyon Lake are all 162 00:09:04,279 --> 00:09:06,639 within the forest and play a critical role in Central 163 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,039 Arizona's water system. Despite its name, much of it isn't forested, 164 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,039 so large portions look nothing like what people imagine a 165 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,480 forest should be. Wide open desert cactus covered hillsides in 166 00:09:17,519 --> 00:09:21,720 a rocky canyon dominate the lower elevations. It is one 167 00:09:21,759 --> 00:09:24,120 of the most visited national forests in the United States. 168 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:27,240 Millions of people each year visit, largely because it borders 169 00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:30,879 Phoenix metro area. As Mike said, yet vast interior sections 170 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:34,559 remain extremely remote and lightly travel You can experience snow 171 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:38,120 and cactus in the same day. In winter and early spring, 172 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,559 it's possible to hike among snow dusted pines at high 173 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,759 elevations and end the day among swaros below. You had 174 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:47,440 to not pronounce the G. I think we've been yelled 175 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,399 at yelled at we have is it suarros cuarros? I 176 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,320 don't want to say yes or no because it's probably wrong. 177 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,600 We're wrong, It doesn't matter it call the number we need, voicemails. 178 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,279 Speaker 2: Whatever you said sounded right. Thank you, Mike. New Year, 179 00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:06,440 New Year, New year, knew me. Climate. 180 00:10:06,639 --> 00:10:09,519 Speaker 1: The area of the Tanto National Forest near young sits 181 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,360 at the higher elevation than most people associate with Arizona. 182 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,039 Elevations in this region range roughly from forty five hundred 183 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:18,879 to over sixty five hundred feet, which means the climate 184 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:21,600 here behaves much more like a mountain environment than a 185 00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:26,480 desert one. In mid February, daytime temperatures can feel relatively mild, 186 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,840 often climbing into the forties fifties and occasionally even warmer 187 00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:33,720 in direct sunlight, but once the sun drops, temperatures fall quickly. 188 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:37,080 Nighttime lows commonly dip to the twenties or low thirties, 189 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,240 and can even be colder in shaded drainages or at 190 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,519 higher elevations. One of the biggest hazards in this area 191 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,600 is the dramatic temperature swing between day and night. A 192 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,039 hiker who is comfortable and active during the day can 193 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,039 become dangerously cold after sunset, especially if they are injured, fatigued, 194 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,720 or unable to keep moving. The rapid shift significantly increases 195 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:00,879 the risk of hypothermia even without extreme weather. Winter weather 196 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,519 is part of the Tanto National Forest is also predictable. 197 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,519 Unpredictable February can bring rain, sleet, or snow, particularly during 198 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,399 massive storms passing storm systems. Snow accumulation is possible on 199 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,799 north facing slopes and higher terrain, which can make navigation 200 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:21,159 more difficult and obscure tracks or landmarks. Wind exposure adds 201 00:11:21,159 --> 00:11:24,080 another layer of risk. Saddles and ridgelines are often windy 202 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,960 and cold. Wind dramatically accelerates heat loss through wind chill. 203 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,440 Combined with shorter winter daylight hours, these conditions limit how 204 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,240 far a person can safely travel and reduce the margin 205 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:35,960 for air if something goes wrong. Even in winter, the 206 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,679 air remains dry, Dehydration can occur more quickly than people expect, 207 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:44,360 especially during sustained hiking. Once dehydration sets in, fatigue and 208 00:11:44,399 --> 00:11:48,320 poor decision making often follow, compounding the dangers posed by 209 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,600 cold and terrain. Taken together, these conditions mean that it 210 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,840 is in part in this part of Arizona a relatively 211 00:11:55,879 --> 00:11:59,399 small problem, a twisted ankle, a wrong turn, or delayed 212 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,840 return can escalate rapidly into a life threatening situation. So 213 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,200 a little bit about the terrain. The region of Tanto 214 00:12:06,279 --> 00:12:09,480 National Force, where Paul Tomas's vehicle was located and where 215 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,679 he was last believed to enter the back country, is 216 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,039 extremely rugged and geographically diverse. This part of central Arizona 217 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,159 transitions quickly from low and relatively flat desert train into steep, 218 00:12:21,519 --> 00:12:26,320 dissected hills and mountain foothills that extend towards the mcgallan rim, 219 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,840 a major geological escarpment north of the Phoenix area, across 220 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,159 the forest nearly three million acres elevations very dramatically. As 221 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,759 we said before, from roughly thirteen hundred feet in low 222 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,399 Sonoran Desert to eight thousand feet near the Upland Pines, 223 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:44,279 and in areas north of Young and near broad Tree Saddle, 224 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,200 elevations generally sit in the mid thousands of feet, placing 225 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,919 them in the foothill and lower mountain country. 226 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:50,639 Speaker 2: The PUZI there. 227 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,799 Speaker 3: So, I've heard a lot of geographical geological terms, but 228 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,440 I don't think I've ever heard escarpment. 229 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: Have you heard that before? I have, but I don't 230 00:12:59,639 --> 00:13:01,559 know what it is, so I was just curious. 231 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,799 Speaker 3: So for all of you listening, it's a long steep slope, 232 00:13:04,919 --> 00:13:09,080 especially one at the ridge of a plateau or separating 233 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,320 areas of land at different heights. So that's an escarpment. Okay, 234 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:17,120 I thought I wrote it. I like spelled it wrong 235 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,000 because I've probably heard the word. I've heard it before. 236 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,159 But so that's an escarpment. I just assume what things 237 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:28,399 are and move on. So this terrain is a complex 238 00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:31,840 patchwork of features. Broad valleys and basins giving way to 239 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,480 steep ridgelines, deep insize drainages, rocky slopes, and uneven ground. 240 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:40,440 There are a few formal trails in the deeper back country, 241 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,279 and those that do exist often climb rapidly in elevation 242 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,399 or traverse uneven ground. Vegetation varies from desert scrub and 243 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,720 cacti on the lower slopes to juniper, oak and mixed 244 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,519 woodlands at higher elevations, meaning footing can change abruptly from 245 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,879 loose rock and gravel to dense brush. Because of the 246 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,720 rugged topography, it's easy for someone traveling off established roads 247 00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:05,840 or trails to descend into deep canyons or ascend steep 248 00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:09,759 ridges without ever being seen from a distance, especially in 249 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:13,519 areas that are not highly trafficked. Even experienced hikers can 250 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,159 find navigation challenging when landscape features block and line a site, 251 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,879 and subtle drainage systems can funnel travel in unintended directions. 252 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,559 This overall pattern, dramatic elevation change, dense and varied vegetation, 253 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,519 and terrain that complicates line of site is common throughout 254 00:14:30,559 --> 00:14:33,399 the forest and especially in the remote interior sections. These 255 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,159 qualities make the forest breath taking the scenic, but also 256 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,240 hard to search comprehensively without localized logistic support. 257 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: So very rugged and Joel gets some pictures of the 258 00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:46,840 place someday, a whole bunch of ridges and nothing. Yeah, 259 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:48,159 I mean it looks really cool. 260 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: Again another area that I'd love to hike someday, but 261 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:52,639 not today. 262 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: Not today. 263 00:14:53,799 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: Some of the animals you are encounter black bear, mountain lion, elk, coyotes, bobcats, rattlesnake, scorpion, 264 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,120 and spiders, including the black widow that would end up 265 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,159 getting me. I think something like a slider. Would you 266 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:09,080 would get pit by the black widow? Yeah? So, as 267 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:10,840 we said, some of the hazards Paul would have faced 268 00:15:10,879 --> 00:15:14,279 in the forest cold night ten temperatures, so even mild 269 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,480 daytime conditions can drop it in the twenties at night. 270 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,559 Hypothermia becomes a serious risk once moving stops due to injury, fatigue, 271 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:23,799 or navigation issues. As we said, rapid weather changes winter 272 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,919 storms can come in quickly bringing rain, sleet, snow. Sudden 273 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,639 weather shifts reduce visibility and can erase tracks or landmarks. 274 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:35,279 Large day night temperature swings, so big diurnal swings taxi 275 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,679 body and increased dehydration, cold stress, especially if clothing or 276 00:15:38,679 --> 00:15:41,039 shelter isn't adequate. 277 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: Wind exposure on the ridge lines. 278 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:45,799 Speaker 1: Wind dramatically accelerates the heat loss, as we said, and 279 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,279 it just like burns your skin. Yeah, when you're hiking 280 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:49,759 a mountain, the winds hitting in the face, it's the 281 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:50,519 absolute worst. 282 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: It is steep and rugged. 283 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: Terrain as we talked about, the deep drainages and canyons, 284 00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:59,240 limited and unclear trails, navigational challenges, all of the things 285 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:00,679 that could go wrong really would. 286 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: Go wrong if you don't know what you're doing out there. 287 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,639 Speaker 1: And then on top of it, because it's winter, you 288 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:07,480 have fewer daylight hours, so limiting the time of travel 289 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:11,519 and chance of being caught overnight without shelter. And then 290 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,960 all this leads into well, the dry winter air masks thirst, 291 00:16:16,159 --> 00:16:20,039 but dehydration accelerates fatigue, poor decision making, cold injury, and 292 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,919 all of it leads to delayed rescue potential. So remote access, 293 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,840 limited road roads, vast search areas means even prompt star 294 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:29,159 responses may not reach an injured to hiker in time. 295 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,519 Plus this is like sounding very similar to the like 296 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:35,519 the Paul Miller. Yeah, he went missing, and remember he 297 00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:37,279 wasn't far off the trail, and it took him a 298 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,279 really long It took what over a year to find you. 299 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. 300 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,279 Speaker 3: His remains were found not that far from the main 301 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,480 trail that he was hiking, and they searched for a while. 302 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: It took all those images and all the processing just 303 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,879 to find it. So, I mean, when you're in these areas, 304 00:16:50,919 --> 00:16:53,240 it's really like finding a needle in a stack of needles. 305 00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:55,919 So how about you tell us about Paul Victor Tomasso 306 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,600 and I'll pull up some images and stuff. 307 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: All right, So, like Joe said, the subject of tonight's 308 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,720 case is Paul Victor Tomaso. We don't have a date 309 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:08,599 of an actual date of birth. He went missing on 310 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,240 February thirteenth of twenty fourteen, at twenty twenty four in 311 00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:14,880 here that is, it's. 312 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,839 Speaker 1: Like New Year and after the break, I'm having a 313 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,519 rough time myself. Yeah, we're just we're getting back into 314 00:17:19,519 --> 00:17:22,960 those swing of things things wild eyed wild New Year's Eve. 315 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:26,559 Speaker 3: No. I didn't gender. Was male, age fifty six. His 316 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,839 height was five foot ten, one hundred and sixty five pounds, 317 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,200 brown hair, green eyes. Clothing, he was last seen in, Oh, hey, 318 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,240 that's our website. I know, right like that, that's our 319 00:17:39,279 --> 00:17:42,720 old website. We have a new website. That's okay, So 320 00:17:43,079 --> 00:17:46,359 I gotta consolidate, probably confuse people. 321 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,079 Speaker 2: So clothing. 322 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:50,599 Speaker 3: He was last seen in beige cargo pants, dark long 323 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,519 sleeve shirt, dark fest He often wore sunglasses and reportedly 324 00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:59,000 had a custom necklace for his glasses. Personality so he 325 00:17:59,079 --> 00:18:01,720 was described by his family as independent and capable. He 326 00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:05,960 was comfortable traveling alone and did not appear reckless. There 327 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,720 were no public statements that I could find that suggested 328 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:12,160 he was impulsive or in any kind of distress or 329 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,279 any unusual behavior prior to his trip occupation. We don't 330 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:20,799 know a ton about his personal life. We know he 331 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,880 enjoyed hiking and spending time outdoors. He had a very 332 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,759 keen interest in exploring remote areas, and he did have 333 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,759 interest in historical and archaeological sites, including Native American ruins, 334 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:35,400 so that might have been one of the reasons why 335 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,440 he was out in this forest experience in the wilderness. 336 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,839 Everything I read, Paul was described as a very experienced 337 00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:47,799 outdoorsman and backpacker. Family stated he was capable of hiking 338 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,680 long distances and was familiar with remote backcountry travel, though 339 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,200 he was not experienced from what I could tell, in 340 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,119 this specific area and more importantly the board Tree Saddle area. 341 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,799 And you know, his willingness to undertake a solo multi 342 00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:09,720 day trip suggests his confidence in navigating this kind of train. 343 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,799 So he was from all accounts very experienced, but maybe 344 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,920 not so much in this area. And based on Joe's 345 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,759 description of the train, it seems like a very hard 346 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:25,640 place to hike, especially if you're a newbie. I wouldn't 347 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,839 want to send someone out there on their first back 348 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:30,119 country hike. Probably not the park for us to do 349 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,759 it in. Yeah, all around, he seemed like a pretty capable, 350 00:19:34,519 --> 00:19:38,599 capable hiker and sorry, I was just trying to pull 351 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,400 something up here. So the timeline starts Thursday, February thirteenth 352 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,680 of twenty fourteen. It's this The time period will be 353 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,160 morning to early afternoon. For those of you watching on 354 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,880 YouTube or just listening. Joe has Google maps of the area, 355 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,720 and it is rugged. 356 00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: Is rugged, and there's a bunch of a whole bunch 357 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,759 of nothing, whole bunch of nothing. 358 00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:02,519 Speaker 3: But off in the distance, you got Phoenix. So which 359 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:05,839 way is Phoenix? So there was young We're looking around. 360 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: Well they did say it was north. It's this is 361 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,039 northeast of Phoenix. Northeast. 362 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: Okay, so if I listen to the southwest, Phoenix is 363 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:16,240 somewhere that way. 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,839 Speaker 2: Okay. Ish, some are ish You think it would pop. 365 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,559 Speaker 3: Up, you would think, Well, what we're trying to describe 366 00:20:25,559 --> 00:20:28,000 here is it's very very rugged. 367 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: Okay, there's Phoenix. Yeah. 368 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,759 Speaker 3: So it's kind of if you're in the forest, it's 369 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:35,119 kind of obscured by mountains. 370 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 371 00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:38,319 Speaker 1: This is like when I remember flying over this, I 372 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,799 look down and like, who lives there? 373 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 2: No one? No what? No one? 374 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well apparently some people do, and then they hike 375 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,640 around here. I mean I would hike there if I 376 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,400 lived in Phoenix. Yeah, it looks would it looks something 377 00:20:50,519 --> 00:20:52,599 right up our alley. Yeah, I'll start pump up some 378 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,200 images while you keep talking. 379 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: Like I said. 380 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,759 Speaker 3: February thirteenth, twenty fourteen, Paul was traveling through northern Arizona 381 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,200 that and he stopped at a Circle K convenience store 382 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,440 along Highway to sixty in Herber, Arizona. This stop would 383 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:11,119 later become the last known confirmed in person citing of him. 384 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,119 After leaving Herber, Paul continued driving southeast. At the time, 385 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,799 no one was aware that this would be the final 386 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:22,279 known stretch of his journey. It's now the same day, 387 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:25,920 so Thursday, February thirteenth of twenty fourteen. It's late afternoon. 388 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,720 So sometime after departing Herber, Paul drove towards the community 389 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,079 of Young, Arizona. He parked his vehicle off Highway to 390 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,599 eighty eight, which is near the boundary of Tonto National Forest. 391 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,119 At the time, again, there was no immediate indication anything 392 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,079 was wrong. Paul did not alert authorities or family members 393 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,920 of any issues, and there was no distress signals reported. 394 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,079 So as far as we know, everything was going a okay. 395 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,079 It's now. The time period is February fourteenth to February 396 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,160 eighteenth of twenty four, twenty fourteen, so for several days 397 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,519 after the thirteenth, Paul was presumed to be on a 398 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,000 routine trip. No one reported in missing during this period 399 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:13,640 and no one suspected any reason for concern, but unknown 400 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,400 to others at the time, Paul did not access services, 401 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,720 stores or roadways after parking his vehicle. There was also 402 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:24,799 no phone activity or verified sightings during these days, so 403 00:22:25,079 --> 00:22:28,160 he's gone off the grid at this point. From February 404 00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:33,680 nineteenth to February twenty fourth of twenty fourteen, so several 405 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:36,480 days have passed now, and family members began to grow 406 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:41,039 concerned when Paul didn't return as expected. Attempts to account 407 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,400 for his whereabouts were unsuccessful, though at this stage no 408 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,759 formal report had been filed yet, and weather conditions at 409 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:51,440 this time in the region, So it's mid February. Like 410 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,119 we said, cold nighttime temperatures and the rugged backcountry conditions 411 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,279 could pose challenges to a solo hiker. So it's Tuesday, 412 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:03,920 February twenty fifth of twenty fourteen. This would be the 413 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,440 actual day that he was reported missing. He was formally 414 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,559 reported overdue and missing to the Hila County Sheriff's Office 415 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,640 by his brother. Deputies responded to the area near Young, Arizona, 416 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,599 where Paul's vehicle was located off a highway to eighty eight. 417 00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:23,799 During their initial response, investigators discovered obviously his parked vehicle. 418 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,640 Inside or near the vehicle, authorities located a handwritten note 419 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,279 stating Paul planned to embark on a hiking trip lasting 420 00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:35,079 approximately four to five days beginning on the thirteenth. The 421 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,359 note referenced the board Tree Saddle area within the Tonto 422 00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:43,440 National Force, so four or five days, that would be 423 00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:48,960 the thirteenth, so thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteen, sixteenth, seventeenth at the latest, 424 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:51,880 or seventeenth eighteenth, depending on which day. So he was 425 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,880 reported missing on the twenty fifth, so he should have 426 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,559 been out of there by the seventeenth or eighteenth. That's 427 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,319 a pretty big time window of time in between when 428 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:04,519 he was supposed to be out of there and when 429 00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:07,359 he was reported missing. So that is never never good 430 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,079 in cases like this, and unfortunately too, Paul's cell phone 431 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,200 was found inside the vehicle, which indicated he had left 432 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,400 it behind intentionally. So we were just talking in a 433 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,519 recent case where there's technology. I don't know if they 434 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,359 had this in twenty fourteen, but there's technology search and 435 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,480 rescue can use where they basically set up a temporary 436 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,279 cell tower in one of the search helicopters and they 437 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:35,759 can fly that through the area where the person's missing 438 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:40,119 and potentially ping their cell phone and get their coordinates. 439 00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:43,640 So that all relies on you taking your phone with you. Yeah, 440 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,680 which I would highly advise anyone hiking in the back 441 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,119 country to bring your phone, even if you don't think there'll. 442 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: Be some shut it off, leave it off, and then 443 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,480 you can turn it on if you need it. 444 00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: Exactly so, it's still Tuesday, February twenty fifth, of twenty fourteen. 445 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,839 So on the stay to Hila County Sheriff's Office, sergeants 446 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,039 and a Tanto Rim search and rescue tracker conducted an 447 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,599 initial ground assessment around the vehicle. Searchers attempted to locate footprints, 448 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,640 disturbed vegetation, or other signs that could establish a direction 449 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:20,920 of travel into the forest. Despite careful examination, no clear 450 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,839 trail or definitive route could be determined. And this is 451 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,880 not too unsurprising since he hadn't been at that vehicle 452 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,799 now for thirteenth, it's the twenty fifth, you know a while. Yeah, 453 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:36,519 this is the road so, yeah, it's a dirt road, 454 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:40,480 very rugged. Yeah, I mean it's not dense though. 455 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:42,799 Speaker 1: This is what always like baffles me in these types 456 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:44,960 of cases, Like it's not like there's a ton of 457 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,319 brush where he could be hiding in. No, but it's 458 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240 possible he's in the brush hiding from the heat if 459 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,640 there's like an injury or something. So yeah, I won't 460 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,200 get into theories just yet. But that's a big, long 461 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,480 dirt road. Yeah, any somewhere on this road and there's 462 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,680 a whole lot of nothing. Where is the board tree 463 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:05,599 saddle area it is? 464 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: I was just like right in that area, okay. Yeah, 465 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,920 I was picking spots like here's a board tree, settle tank. 466 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,799 I don't know what that means, thinking like water, but yeah, 467 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,519 I mean this is ok. That's more dense, it a 468 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:20,640 little more thick. 469 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 3: And this isn't you know, I don't picture this when 470 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,079 I think of Arizona. 471 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, me, neither. 472 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,039 Speaker 1: I'll go I'm going to go right to where Google 473 00:26:28,079 --> 00:26:30,880 says it is. Okay, so we'll just work off of 474 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,440 that area. So he just pulled his car off on 475 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,119 the side and left the note sounds like it. 476 00:26:36,279 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, they just park right here and like, hey, don't 477 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,279 tell me now what timing? So this picture was taken 478 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:44,160 in September. September twenty twenty four. 479 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:46,559 Speaker 3: Do they have any Are you able to see pictures 480 00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:47,440 from a different time? 481 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: So usually I can on all trails. Yeah, sometimes you 482 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,160 can go back in time on these things, you know. Yeah, 483 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,200 it's not on the images per se, it's on the 484 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,240 satellite imagery. 485 00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,279 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. 486 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: And then normally i'd go to all trails and just 487 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,000 look back at reviews as long as the app is 488 00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:05,960 around when it happened. 489 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: And there's no hiking trails in this area. Yeah, it's 490 00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:10,880 I mean that country. 491 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like very few hiking trails, none of them 492 00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:16,880 are near this area. Yeah, so so you got I 493 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:17,480 got nothing. 494 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:18,839 Speaker 2: Wonder what he was doing? 495 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 3: Was he just because in national forests pretty typically you 496 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:25,880 could just park your car and go hike, like straight 497 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,680 off and just go in. 498 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,039 Speaker 2: Maybe that's like he just likes solitude. 499 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: And are the archaeological areas around here that he might 500 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,200 have tried to hike too? 501 00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: So there's petroglyphs, but they are nowhere near where he was, 502 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:39,960 so there's no really points of interest. You know, Let's 503 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,279 see where's so this is? 504 00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:46,839 Speaker 1: Jeez, he was highway to eighty eight to eighty eight. 505 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's to eighty eight. 506 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just not it's not even showing up on 507 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:55,839 to eighty eight or one to eighty eight. 508 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not even showing up on here. Hold on, jeez, 509 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,000 I'm bad at this. It's different key strokes. Well, while 510 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,960 you're looking at that, I'll keep going on the timeline. 511 00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:07,799 Speaker 2: So I finally where the heck this is? 512 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,599 Speaker 3: Later in the day, on Tuesday, the twenty fifth of 513 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,839 February and twenty fourteen, the coordinated search effort was launched. 514 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,279 Approximately twenty one searchers were deployed, including members of the 515 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,839 HeLa County Sheriffs, Mounted Posse, and Tonto RIM Search and 516 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,400 Rescue teams. Searched on foot by ATV, jeep and horseback, 517 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,759 covering large areas of train surrounding the vehicle location. A 518 00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:35,039 Department of Public Safety Ranger helicopter was deployed during daylight 519 00:28:35,079 --> 00:28:39,240 hours to conduct aerial reconnaissance. After nightfall, the helicopter returned 520 00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:41,920 to search for signs of light fire or movement that 521 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,440 could indicate Paul's presence. Sadly, no physical evidence or confirmed 522 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,240 clues were located on the first day, so from February 523 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:55,359 twenty six to early March of twenty fourteen, the search 524 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,160 operations continued for several days. I think it was about 525 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,160 eleven days logged and estimated one hundred and eighty five 526 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,640 combined man days. Volunteer and professional teams conducted repeated ground searches. 527 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Canine units were deployed on multiple occasions to attempt sent tracking. 528 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:16,319 The DPS Ranger helicopter flights were conducted on several days. 529 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:20,920 Search areas were expanded to include remote drainages, ridge lines, 530 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,440 and terrain consistent with Paul's known interests, including locations near 531 00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:30,799 archaeological features. Despite the scale of the operation, no clothing, gear, tracks, 532 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,079 campsite or biological evidence attributable to Paul was ever discovered, 533 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,559 and by Monday, March third of twenty fourteen, the search 534 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:44,880 effort was still active. Reports from a local outdoor community 535 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,279 unicated that teams were continuing to search, though the lack 536 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,960 of leads was becoming increasingly concerning. By mid March, after 537 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:56,920 nearly two weeks of active searching without success, the organized 538 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,200 search operations were suspended. Authorities can included that further searching 539 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,039 without new information was unlikely to produce any results. Sadly, 540 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:09,279 and this is I say it every time this happens. 541 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:12,839 At some point you just can't keep searching forever. And 542 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,839 with this case, they got to a late start. It 543 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,920 wasn't it because of the search and rescue teams. Was 544 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,319 just because he wasn't reported missing for quite a while 545 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:24,079 after he was supposed to be out of the forest. 546 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,759 So that really doesn't help things. And to this day, 547 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,319 Paul has never been located. There's been no definitive evidence 548 00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:38,039 explaining his disappearance, and no remains have been recovered, and 549 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:43,200 his case remains open and unsolved. So what are the 550 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,400 likely theories in this case? Well, the first likely theory 551 00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,799 is accidental injury followed by exposure. You could have probably 552 00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:55,680 guessed that one. So Paul entered an extremely rugged, remote 553 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,279 area in mid February. A fall, a misstep or injury 554 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,160 into one of the steep drainages or one of the 555 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:08,319 rocky slopes or forested areas could have immobilized quickly. Once injured, 556 00:31:09,079 --> 00:31:11,839 even a survivable fall can become fatal in the cold 557 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:16,200 overnight temperatures, especially without a phone or any immediate rescue access. 558 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,359 If he was unable to move far from where he fell, 559 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,359 his remains could still be hidden by terrain, vegetation, or 560 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,759 natural decomposition. And this theory fits the best because he 561 00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:31,039 was a solo hiker in a remote terrain this time 562 00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:34,640 of year, it's cold in this area, which increases exposure risk. 563 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,559 He left his phone in his vehicle, so he has 564 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:41,880 no communicative communication device with him, So our efforts often 565 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,960 miss victims in steep and brush heavy terrain. This is 566 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920 not due to the lack of trying. It's just a 567 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,240 product of the location. It's just from some of the 568 00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:55,799 pictures we're looking at, this is incredibly rugged and they 569 00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:57,599 only had you know, they had a team out there, 570 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,160 but twenty one people. Yeah, that's that's not a lot 571 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,920 of people to cover a huge amount of terrain. And 572 00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:08,160 with this case, we really don't know where he went. 573 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,240 There were no like Joe said, there was no trails 574 00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:12,960 in the area where his car was found. So the 575 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,200 assumption is either he hiked kept hiking down that road, 576 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:19,920 or he went like backcountry and just went into the woods. 577 00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:24,039 Searchers really don't have any clue which way he went, 578 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:27,279 and because there was such a time lamps between when 579 00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:29,839 he first got there and when they started the search, 580 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:33,839 any evidence of where he might have gone which direction 581 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,319 is probably weathered over at this point. 582 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,359 Speaker 1: And as I saw this, one looks like it's a 583 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,759 trail that's near where he was off the road. It's 584 00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,680 called like the Hell's Whole trail. The earliest one I 585 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,200 found was March twenty, twenty fifteen. Okay, so not close enough. 586 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: No. 587 00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:56,759 Speaker 3: So this first theory is obviously for most of our 588 00:32:56,799 --> 00:33:00,759 case is one of the most common outcomes, and when 589 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:04,240 there's no evidence of foul play and no really evidence 590 00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:06,240 of anything, this is the theory that a lot of 591 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,279 people come up with. The second most likely theory in it, 592 00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:10,799 you could kind of group it into with the first 593 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:13,920 theory is a navigation area leading to deep backcountry exposure, 594 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,119 so Paul may have unintentionally traveled for farther or in 595 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,119 a different direction than planned. In areas like this, forest drainages, 596 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,400 like Joe said, can funnel hikers into increasingly remote terrain 597 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,880 with very limited escape routes. We covered a case a 598 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,079 while back about a gentleman who went hiking in the 599 00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:36,480 Grand canyon like, not on trail. He went off trail 600 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,559 and he started going down some of the canyons and 601 00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:44,119 he got stuck and he couldn't go any further and 602 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,519 he didn't have a rope to go back up, and 603 00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:50,279 he was just stuck on the canyon ledge shews like 604 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,200 a dried up waterfall. Yeah, they called it what they 605 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,480 called there's a term that. 606 00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: I'll look it up because I know you're talking. That's 607 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,559 what I was trying to think of it too. Yeah, 608 00:33:58,799 --> 00:33:59,799 spillway or something. 609 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: It's something like that. 610 00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:04,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, But essentially what happens and why the Park Service 611 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,440 does not like it when people go off trail in 612 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,840 certain areas like Grand Canyon is because if you don't 613 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,000 have any climbing here with you. He went down into 614 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:17,480 those cantyon and got stuck on this canyon ledgen and 615 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:20,000 just couldn't get out, and he ended up passing away 616 00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:26,280 on that ledge and I can't imagine. I remember he 617 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,880 actually wrote a letter to his family on his phone 618 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,360 and he was kind of at peace with it. Towards 619 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,880 the end, he was kind of like, this is how 620 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,519 it's going to go. But he was cracking jokes, but 621 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,079 the same kind of thing could have happened to Paul 622 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,719 in this location with how the terrain can funnel you 623 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,280 into an area, and he might have not have been able. 624 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 1: To get back out. 625 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,119 Speaker 3: A navigation era could have led him into dense veg vegetation, 626 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,320 deep canyons, long exhausting travel days, and limited water availability. 627 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: A kholie yeah, cou ee. 628 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: Okay, it's a steep sided, often dry valley or gully 629 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,719 carved by water. Okay, So yeah, you can get stuck 630 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,880 in one of those, and your energy gets depleted, your 631 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,880 decision making degrades rapidly, which increases the likelihood of collapse 632 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:14,960 or fatal exposure. 633 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,679 Speaker 2: And this fits with this case. 634 00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:21,079 Speaker 3: Because he had no confirmed route plan beyond the general area. 635 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,519 Vehicle location did not clearly indicate a trailhead, so searchers 636 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:29,559 could not establish a direction of travel, and SAR coverage 637 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:32,280 cannot guarantee a full drainage or canyon coverage. 638 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: There's just not enough people. 639 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 3: Twenty one people's not enough to cover this full area. 640 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:41,239 You would have to have hundreds out there to properly 641 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,920 search every nook and cranny of this area, and even 642 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,360 then you probably won't find anything. Another likely theory would 643 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,840 be a medical emergency while hiking, Paul could have suffered 644 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,280 a sudden medical event such as a cardiac event, a stroke, 645 00:35:56,079 --> 00:36:00,719 maybe some undiagnosed condition that was exacerbated by exertion heat, 646 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:04,719 And obviously, if any of that occurred this deep into 647 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,639 the back country, there would be little chance of any 648 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,960 way of getting out of there. Yeah, your toast, your toast. Unfortunately, 649 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:16,039 and this kind of fits with this case. Age obviously 650 00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:20,639 increases the baseline risk for sudden medical emergency, and solo 651 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,119 hiking eliminates any kind of immediate aid, and medical events 652 00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:28,920 would leave little environmental evidence other than stumbling upon the remains. 653 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,880 You're not going to know a half a mile away 654 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,679 that someone had a heart attack. A few theories that 655 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,239 are possible but less likely animal encounter. Joe covered the 656 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,960 animals that are in this area. There's black bears, but 657 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,880 they're probably not going to bug him. There's scorpions, there's spiders, 658 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,519 black widow spider, but there's not like grizzlies or anything 659 00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:55,119 that could cause a problem for Paul. And another theory 660 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,800 was he became lost intentionally. That kind of goes with 661 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,559 an intentional disappearance, and from everything I read, there was 662 00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:06,159 no indication he was. He had that kind of mindset. 663 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,679 There was no events that happened that led him here, 664 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,199 like the case Brian Skolinski, the guy we covered a 665 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,679 few cases ago where he got lost in Great sand 666 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,719 Dunes twice. He was at Great Sand Dunes because he 667 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,480 had a midlife crisis and he was like going out 668 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:28,599 there to I don't know, confront his demons or something. 669 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,719 There's no indication Paul was doing that. Paul just liked challenging, remote, 670 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,880 deep back country hiking and he found it at Tanto. 671 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,760 And then the final theory that always is a possibility, 672 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,079 but probably very not very likely. Here is foul play 673 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,039 just based on the just remoteness of this area. Probably 674 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:53,199 not very likely to come across someone that's going to 675 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,360 murder you this deep into a place this rugged, So 676 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,960 it's always a possibility, but there was no indication of 677 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,880 any struggle. They didn't find blood or his phone was 678 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,639 still in his car, so someone it's gonna maybe rob 679 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:13,599 you would have taken the stuff out of his car. Yeah, 680 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,320 that his car was undisturbed, So probably not fall play. 681 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,440 If I had to put my money on what happened 682 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,199 to him, I think it's a combination of one and two. 683 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,559 I think I think he had a navigation air that 684 00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:28,159 led him deeper into the back country, probably out of 685 00:38:28,159 --> 00:38:31,800 the search area, and then he suffered some kind of injury. 686 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:33,039 Speaker 2: Yeah. 687 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: He was planning to be out there four days, so 688 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,159 if it happened later, he'd be really far away and 689 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,039 dey dressed. Dehydration can stress the heart. His age, we 690 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,079 don't know his medical background, but you're at risk. Yeah, 691 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:48,000 And I think I might be a little too. Thinking 692 00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:50,280 of the Paul Miller case. He has a determined that 693 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,239 that's basically what the cause was. I could imagine you're 694 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,559 out in the desert, stressing the heart, dehydrated, potentially hiking. Yeah, 695 00:38:57,639 --> 00:38:59,920 I'm kind of with you. A medical event of some sort, 696 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:03,719 not necessarily an injury. Yeah, just because of how flat 697 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,039 it is, you can roll your ankle, I guess. But 698 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,280 I mean there's some rugged areas too. I mean you 699 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:09,360 could have tried. 700 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:11,599 Speaker 2: I don't know. 701 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: I just I think of like myself at forty, I 702 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,000 don't take huge risks anymore. By the time of fifty six, 703 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,039 I'm not going to be doing crazy hiking unless I'm. 704 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: Doing it regularly. 705 00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:25,559 Speaker 3: You're gonna be like paved the trail with your sandals. No, No, 706 00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:27,119 I'll still dress appropriately. 707 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to be doing like the kind 708 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,880 of stuff we've done floods and zion and. 709 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 3: Your Mocha frappuccino and your sandal, your sandals and Tommy 710 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,599 bahamasher I have like my robot carrying my backpack, are 711 00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:45,880 carrying me robot dog, my robot dog carrying my backpack, 712 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,719 and the robot carrying me like cradling me. 713 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,599 Speaker 1: That would be kind of cool, like the Boston Dynamics, 714 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,239 the Boston Dynamics about dog just carries your gear and 715 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:54,639 then you can just have fun hiking. 716 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could do twice the distance. 717 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it can protect you, yeah or turn 718 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,800 all right, that's more likely we're gonna have a lot 719 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,000 of robot deaths to cover when we have this show 720 00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:09,639 in twenty years. Yeah, I think, Yeah, I think maybe 721 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,119 navigation era or exposure this time of year. Go back 722 00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:17,519 to the map. I'm just curious, what's the closest water 723 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,880 that you can see from here? I didn't is there 724 00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:28,000 any kind of sometimes maybe go back to just the 725 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:29,760 map view for a second. 726 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,559 Speaker 2: I'm trying to rotate. There we go, geez, there we go. 727 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:33,519 The buttons don't. 728 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 3: Work, So okay, we've got let's go to map map view. 729 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:40,800 That looks like a drainage way over there, Salt River, 730 00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:45,639 and that's it. There is not a lot of water 731 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,679 where he was parked. 732 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:48,599 Speaker 2: I see. 733 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,679 Speaker 1: Besides that, I gotta go to satellite just as if 734 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,639 there's gets just this and. 735 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, just that. 736 00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 3: Now in February there could be snow and higher elevations, 737 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,719 so you could get water that way. But I would 738 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,320 imagine this time of year, little creeks and streams are 739 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,719 going to be pretty dry because nothing, you know, stuff 740 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,639 hasn't started melting yet. And you look at the train, 741 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:16,199 it just looks dry. Yeah, September is that's a drier 742 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,639 time of the year. But I think you're right, he 743 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,719 probably got dehydrated if you got lost, and then if 744 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,880 he was out there longer than he planned, he probably 745 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,440 easily ran out of water. I don't see a lot 746 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,119 of natural flowing water in this area. 747 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,599 Speaker 2: No, there's a yeah, there's no water. This is a 748 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:36,679 little bit ways away. 749 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,639 Speaker 3: But now that doesn't mean the park the Forest Service 750 00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:43,360 doesn't have areas where there's maybe natural springs that you 751 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,159 can fill up on. Maybe that's present here. Well, I 752 00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:48,519 don't see any. Yeah, we don't see any in our 753 00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:51,840 limited I mean that's possible, but yeah, I think, you know, 754 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,679 navigational air. Maybe he got lost, ran out of water, dehydration, 755 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,840 set in exposure. Because it's February, it's cold at night. 756 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,360 We don't know outside of kind of the basic clothing 757 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,159 he was wearing, we don't know the kind of gear 758 00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:08,840 he had. I'm assuming based on his experience level that 759 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,639 he would have had the proper gear. 760 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't think he was packed inappropriately. 761 00:42:13,519 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: No, and that is based off of hunch, like no 762 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,320 data other than what we know about the case. 763 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 3: But if he's like an experienced, like deep backcountry hiker 764 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,840 that loves doing this, he's not going to come out 765 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,199 here then unprepared. 766 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't make stupid decisions, or you don't try to. 767 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,280 You can make mistakes, because everyone can. But yeah, that's 768 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,559 what I don't you know how you like after doing 769 00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:35,159 these you just get a feeling about people. I feel 770 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:37,679 like you probably did everything right, it's just something completely 771 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,960 out of control that just and it's it's I you know, 772 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,840 people can make fun of me. I don't like solo 773 00:42:43,119 --> 00:42:46,679 hiking for that reason. Yeah, stuff can go wrong stuff, Yeah, 774 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,280 out of your control, and it's good to have somebody 775 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,480 there that can back you up as if possible. 776 00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:55,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just thinking back when I was hiking in 777 00:42:55,679 --> 00:42:58,960 the Canadian Rockies with when Ben. He had a knife 778 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,760 sheath on a belt and he sat down. 779 00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:03,079 Speaker 2: Yeah what if he's by himself. 780 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the knife went through the sheath and put 781 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,920 like a four inch gash in the back of his thigh. 782 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 2: Yeah what if it hid an artery and he's buy himself. 783 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,119 Speaker 3: Well, and it was, I mean, it bled like crazy, 784 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,119 and luckily we were there and we put pressure on it, 785 00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,679 put pressure on it, we feel dressed it and then 786 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,480 we got to stop bleeding. But you can just imagine 787 00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:25,559 that is just like a random accident. He was just 788 00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:27,800 taking a break, sat down and his knife cut the 789 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,960 back of his leg open. Yeah, that could have you 790 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,159 know that you could bleed out. 791 00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:33,599 Speaker 1: If you're alone and can't get pressure on it because 792 00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:34,320 of where it's cut. 793 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: Things like that like something, or. 794 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 3: You just panic a little because you see all this blood. 795 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,559 Anything can happen like that. So that's why I've never 796 00:43:40,639 --> 00:43:42,679 liked solo hiking. I know people do it all the 797 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:46,119 time and nothing happens. Yeah, that's fine. Yep, you got 798 00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,119 nothing against it except I think it's just except for me. 799 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,920 And you know, I say that because we live in Wisconsin. 800 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,519 If I lived in Colorado or somewhere where there was 801 00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:57,519 lots of national parks, I would so probably get. 802 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 2: More comfortable with it. Yeah, and I'd just be fine. Yeah. 803 00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's just two yocals from the Midwest talking. 804 00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:10,079 I think this one, while we don't have really any 805 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:12,639 evidence of what happens to him, I think it's pretty 806 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,239 cut and dry, sadly. 807 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you on that one, that's for sure. Yeah. 808 00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:20,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning into our show. We appreciate you 809 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,119 all for listening and sharing locations and on with your 810 00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:24,920 friends and family. Be sure to like and follow us 811 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,760 on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube, where you can find. 812 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,079 Speaker 2: The videos of each episode. 813 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,199 Speaker 1: Also, if you'd like to support the show monetarily, please 814 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,039 visit our website or Facebook store to buy some Sweet 815 00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:39,199 Sweet swag and subscribe to a patron account, YouTube and Apple, 816 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,280 where you'll have access to special events additional shows for 817 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,840 paid customers only. This really be able to hear those 818 00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:48,719 great voicemails that you leave us and Lastly, the pins 819 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,639 that you can buy ooh yeah, see how you can 820 00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:52,320 do it too. You gotta have it focused though, come on, 821 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,320 you're bad at this and come on, Mike figure it out. Lastly, 822 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,239 when enjoying the beauty of nature, whether backpacking, camping, or 823 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,760 simply taking a walk, always remember to leave no trace. 824 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,039 Speaker 2: Thanks and we will see you all next time.